The Privilege of Bad Experiences with NASA astronaut Jonny Kim | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

1. 0:00 – 0:11

   Mission Control connects Simon with Jonny Kim aboard the ISS

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Station, this is Houston. Are you ready for the event?

   2. SPSpeaker0:04

      Houston, Station. I am ready for the event.

   3. SPSpeaker0:06

      Simon Sinek, this is Mission Control Houston. Please call Station for a voice check. [upbeat music]

2. 0:11 – 1:42

   Simon’s lifelong NASA obsession and why this guest is a big deal

   1. SPSpeaker0:11

      When I was 13 years old, I had a dream. It was to go to Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama. I had just seen the movie Space Camp, and it sparked all my childhood dreams to be an astronaut one day. And so I figured the first step was to go to Space Camp, and that's exactly what I did. And I remember when I came back, I was so proud I wore my flight suit to school the next day. Everyone made fun of me, this dorky kid in a public school walking around [laughs] in a light blue NASA flight suit. But secretly, I knew everyone was jealous. And my love of space and the space program NASA has never gone away. I've done every Lego set that has a NASA logo on it. I've got NASA stickers on stuff that I own for no other reason than I think it's cool. So when I was offered the opportunity to talk to astronaut Jonny Kim on the podcast, of course I leapt at it. But it gets better than that. I talk to him while he's in space. He is currently on the International Space Station, and the wonderful, fantastic people at NASA hooked up a Zoom call for us and allowed us to have a chat. What a thrill. What a thrill. Totally, totally nerded out. Jonny is someone remarkable and special, and if you think you've met an overachiever before, you haven't met Jonny Kim. He was a Navy SEAL with many combat tours. He was a combat medic, and it was the experiences he had in combat that inspired him to wanna serve even more.

3. 1:42 – 3:40

   Jonny’s upbringing, violence at home, and the roots of service

   1. SPSpeaker1:42

      So he decided to become a doctor. But, of course, he went to Harvard. But, of course, that was still not enough, and now he's an astronaut. This guy is amazing. He's also one of the most humble people I've ever talked to. He refuses to give himself a pat on the back. He refuses to say that, that it was about him. He has immense gratitude to the world, and in particular, immense gratitude for the bumpy life that he had growing up. Jonny was raised in a household with an alcoholic father and, unfortunately, a lot of violence, and that is where this meek kid learned to stand up. But he wasn't just standing up against the violence. He was standing up to protect others, to protect those he loved. And it's this theme, the theme of love, that has continued to drive him to higher and higher levels, literally. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] This episode is brought to you by True Classic. The way they became our sponsor is because I loved their T-shirts, and so we just called them up and asked them if they wanted to work together. And they said yes. So check out their clothes at trueclassic.com. It's good to see you, Jonny. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Oh, anytime. I've been looking forward to this, Simon. I think we're gonna have a great conversation. [laughs] Uh,

4. 3:40 – 4:11

   Comparison, ambition, and being the best version of yourself

   1. SPSpeaker3:40

      I unfortunately have seen that meme and know what you're talking about. Um, I think there's a lot of... I think it's very comical and funny. Um, I do think, though, I, I th- I sometimes worry about the healthy aspects of comparison like that. You know, that common saying, "Comparison is the thief of joy." But also, I also think the part of my journey that's been really important for me has been being the best version of yourself and

5. 4:11 – 5:58

   How adversity actually shapes a life (and when it helps vs harms)

   1. SPSpeaker4:11

      fighting for what you believe in, regardless of what the scale of what that might be or what that looks like. One of the things I find so fascinating about your childhood as well is, is it was not an easy one. And when we think about, you know, overcoming adversity and that adversity makes somebody stronger, it raises the question, you know, this young generation, you know, uh, much is written about, you know, uh, uh, helicopter parents and over-coddling, and it, and it raises the question, like, how important has adversity been to your own journey? I mean, because what you've accomplished is amazing, but how much is it balanced off by the adversity that you, that you've experienced?

   2. SPSpeaker4:49

      I'm a firm believer that all of us are the summation of our experiences, whether they're good or bad. You know, I think there's innate quality traits within us of how we interpret some of those experiences, whether they're good and bad, how we absorb them, and how that kinda shapes us into who we are. But I also think it's really important about the, the extrinsic factors, not just the intrinsic ones, of whether you had a good parent or a coach or a mentor or friend, someone in your life to kind of shape you or bump you when you were going a little bit off course. So to answer your question, I firmly believe I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for a lot of the adversity and the challenges, both the good and the bad ones. And, uh, but I'd say that it's like the, the, the right challenges and the right adversities came to me at a point in my life when I needed them, but I also had at least someone there or, or something at the end of the light working towards where it kinda kept me whole and kept me straight. And that's not to say I didn't bump off the path. I certainly have. And, uh, but I think that's part of that human experience that makes us who we are.

6. 5:58 – 6:42

   The mentor who mattered most: Jonny’s mother and unconditional love

   1. SPSpeaker5:58

      Who was that person for you?

   2. SPSpeaker6:01

      It's taken the shape of different people over the course of my lifetime. At really different phases of my life, I'd say the one that sticks out for me, certainly in my adolescence, was my mom. You know, my mom gave up so much of her own life. I mean, she stayed in a situation that was really harmful for her, that was h- that was hard for her children. The unconditional love she had for her children, it stuck with me. And, uh, and she's certainly the, the most strongest person that I know of. And, you know, I've been really lucky to have people like my mom or other people in my life that were just there at the right time.

7. 6:42 – 9:20

   Motivation evolves: from proving others wrong to sustainable “why”

   1. SPSpeaker6:42

      You know, it's such an interesting thought, whether it's a, a mother or father or a mentor, a coach, a, a, a teacher. You know, somebody who sees something in us and invests so much in us, it's, I think it's such an interesting, uh, thought, which is we, we, one of the reasons we wanna do well and one of the reasons we don't wanna be a screw-up is because we don't wanna let them down. We don't wanna, like, show that their investment in us and belief in us was, was, was in vain. I find that relationship, the desire to, uh, to make someone proud, it's, it's really fascinating to me. That it's not just inner drive, but also it's the relationship of the person who invested in us.

   2. SPSpeaker7:18

      So I, I think that is, can be certainly a very powerful drive. I, and I would be lying to tell you if I didn't have that drive, especially early in my life, where a lot of my motivating factors were almost proving other people wrong.

   3. SPSpeaker7:32

      Mm.

   4. SPSpeaker7:32

      Or like for ex- instance, becoming a SEAL. Like, I, there were a lot of people that told me straight up that that was a bad idea, I wouldn't make it, and a part of me was proving other people that I could do it, and also to myself, proving that I could do it. But as I've gotten older and more mature, I really have shed those extrinsic factors of proving other people or, or doing things for other people 'cause I, I don't think that's a really sustainable way to a healthy life, a healthy whole life. And, uh, and so I, I'm really careful about motivation and why you do things. And because the why you do things is the most important. I mean, Simon, I know you [laughs] yourself know this very, very well. In doing something for someone else's approval is, I think, a surefire way to, to disappointment, to failure. It's not sustainable in my opinion. But it is absolutely powerful in, in, in the right amount of doses at the right times in your life.

   5. SPSpeaker8:36

      Yeah. But I think, I mean, this is interesting because I think there's a nuance, right? There's a, I think there's a difference between doing for, something for someone's approval and, and wanting to make proud the person who invested in you. You know, if y- y- like when we go s- you know, see our kids graduate and we sit in the audience, we feel proud, and the person graduating, you know, is proud, too, but also i- is grateful. I think that what I'm talking about is some sort of gratitude, um, uh, because we have these human connections. A- and this is what I find so interesting, which is how much of it is just us and our drive and our ambition? And because I know you're service oriented. I mean, I, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've read things you've said before, how, how driven you are to service. And sort of you could look at your own career path, it's y- sort of finding bigger and bolder ways to serve.

8. 9:20 – 10:59

   Human connection from orbit: the ISS as a living empathy experiment

   1. SPSpeaker9:20

      Yeah, I, I think it's a subtle difference. You're right. And, uh, that human connection is really important. I think human connection is one of the most important things we need to explore in our life. And that's actually what I find the most fascinating about the International Space Station is, is how it connects so many different people from different walks of life and backgrounds.

   2. SPSpeaker9:36

      Mm. Mm.

   3. SPSpeaker9:37

      I mean, just earlier this week, we had a crew of four, the Axiom 4 crew, and so we had 11 people on board from six different countries and from 11 different backgrounds, yet we were breaking bread together and sharing stories and, and f- and realizing that we had so much more in common than differences.

   4. SPSpeaker9:53

      Every astronaut I know has talked about this. It's not just the overview effect of looking down and saying, "Why can't we all get along?" 'cause you don't see borders, but you experience it when the people come to visit, which is it must be one of the most human experiences where you don't see each other based on, you know, our, our different divides based on our nations, but you're all human beings and common experience, and, and common risk for that matter, too. I mean, you're, you're in austere conditions up there.

   5. SPSpeaker10:16

      Absolutely. And, uh, if we could find a way to relay these experiences down on Earth, you know, I think a l- the world would be a lot better place if we had more empathy and understanding and a drive to find those commonalities amongst us.

   6. SPSpeaker10:31

      Can you tell me a specific story, something throughout your career at any point, whether it was, you know, at, at any point, at any, at any of the, the, the many jobs you had, that, you know, you look back at that one specific thing and you think, "Wow, that, that was incredible." Whether it was successful or, or not, you know, whether it was a mission success or a mission failure is, it doesn't matter, but when you look back you see that it was a defining moment in your life. Can you tell me a specific story of something you've gone through?

9. 10:59 – 12:58

   Defining moments in combat medicine and the ‘privilege of bad experiences’

   1. SPSpeaker10:59

      I have a few of those. I, I think, uh, the one that's probably the most true is probably just a little outside the scope of the conversation we have here today, but, uh, the one I'll, I will share with you was being unconfident in my abilities. You know, I think insecurity is something that we've all dealt with, and it's a part of our, it's a part of being human. And certainly I think a little tinge of healthy insecurity keeps the humility in check, or keeps the ego in check. And, uh, one of the most formative experiences of my life was being able to serve overseas as a combat medic. And regardless of who the person was when they were hurt, um, it was my job to save them. And having that ill opportunity, in particular, to try and save some of my friends left a really impact on me. I mean, it, it's what spurred me to-... kind of continue that level of service at a higher level for medicine. That's why I wanted to be a physician. Um, watching my friends get injured and, uh, and doing my best to help. And I, that's something that's always stuck with me. It's that kind of privilege of experience, and I, I say that really carefully, privilege. You know, privilege of just having bad experiences, but good experiences, formative experiences, challenging, worst day of your life type of experiences. If you can come out of that on the other end stronger and more compassionate and empathetic, it's a real superpower. And, and I think I've been very privileged to have had a lot of those unique type of experiences throughout my life, and that's shaped me into the person I am today. And so that's almost like a moral obli- obligation I find to kind of share that empathy and that experience, uh, among, amongst us so that we can make this world a better place.

10. 12:58 – 13:59

    What Jonny means by ‘privilege’—finding meaning without minimizing pain

    1. SPSpeaker12:58

       Hmm. The privilege of bad experience. I'm so taken by that phrase. You know, that, that, uh, that bad experiences, though they're awful in the moment, I think anyone who's, who's been shaped by them looks back and say, "I hated every moment of that, but I'm glad it happened."

    2. SPSpeaker13:13

       Yeah. You know, I, it, it's, I, I think it requires a lot of context 'cause off the face of it, if you heard the privilege of bad experience [laughs] you'd be like, "What are you talking about? That's, uh, that's, that's terrible." And, and I don't mean to diminish the kind of hurt people have-

    3. SPSpeaker13:27

       Hmm

    4. SPSpeaker13:28

       ... from having bad experiences.

    5. SPSpeaker13:30

       Hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker13:30

       I'm just talking about if you happen to be one of the lucky ones-

    7. SPSpeaker13:35

       Hmm

    8. SPSpeaker13:35

       ... that can come out of a bad experience for whatever reason, maybe because you had a, the right mentor in your life, or you had the right intrinsic perspective to, to reshape that for a good, whatever it is, sublimation. But it is indeed a privilege if you can come out of a bad experience with a new set of eyes to do good, and I think those are stories really, really worth sharing.

11. 13:59 – 16:37

    Standing up to fear: courage sparked by love and protection

    1. SPSpeaker13:59

       What was the specific story when I asked you of something that you look back and you say, "That really was, that really molded me or contributed to molding me into who the person I am today," what was the specific story that you were gonna tell that you said was slightly to the side?

    2. SPSpeaker14:13

       [laughs]

    3. SPSpeaker14:14

       Just 'cause you're in space, I'm not gonna let you off the hook.

    4. SPSpeaker14:17

       [laughs] You're tough.

    5. SPSpeaker14:18

       [laughs]

    6. SPSpeaker14:19

       You're a tough one. Um, without getting into specifics, it was, uh, it was just being really scared. Um, and I think that's something everyone who listens or watches, who, who's lived the life can, can, uh, can understand, you know, being scared. It's being a scared boy for me and being able to stand up to someone that, uh, I had feared for a long period of time-

    7. SPSpeaker14:42

       Hmm

    8. SPSpeaker14:43

       ... clicked something in my head and, and showed me that, uh, you know, we're all a lot stronger than we give ourselves credit for. Um-

    9. SPSpeaker14:54

       We're-

    10. SPSpeaker14:54

        I mean, that, it, it's hard to ar- encapsulate or articulate how formative this experience was for me. But if you can imagine yourself and, you know, maybe most of your adolescence, you thought you weren't meant for big things, or that you were scared, a scared little boy or a scared little girl to do anything-

    11. SPSpeaker15:11

        Hmm

    12. SPSpeaker15:11

        ... and not feeling of any worth or value. Um, but being able to do the most courageous thing you never thought you could do, that changes you, and it changed me.

    13. SPSpeaker15:22

        Where did you find the courage? If you went from having fear, what was it that made you rise up and overcome that fear?

    14. SPSpeaker15:32

        I think it's the strongest emotion that we have, the most important emotion, and the reason for why in everything we do.

    15. SPSpeaker15:39

        Hmm.

    16. SPSpeaker15:40

        And that's love.

    17. SPSpeaker15:40

        Hmm.

    18. SPSpeaker15:41

        For me, it was love of, of someone, um, to care for them and protect them, and I think that love is the reason why, if you really pull away the layers of why we do so many things, it always comes down to love. I mean, look [laughs] right now. I mean, I'm up, I'm up in space, but I've got a whole team of specialists, of engineers, of flight controllers and directors on the ground right now supporting this mission. They're not doing it for a paycheck. [laughs] They're doing it because they love it. They love the public service. They love the work. They love the impact we're making, and most importantly, they love each other. We have a lot of love for each other, and that's what I find so, so inspiring about public service is that it's, it goes beyond that. And, uh, you find a level of camaraderie and love for each other to keep doing the job.

12. 16:37 – 19:31

    Love as a performance engine: SEAL teams, NASA, and leadership practices

    1. SPSpeaker16:37

       You know, this, this word comes up a lot. I've spent time with Marines. I know, uh, you're a sailor. I mean, you're a sailor, technically. You're an, a SEAL. You're an astronaut. And I mean, you're a hardened warrior. You're, you're a combat veteran with many tours, and you've seen and done things that, you know, uh, are, you know, wonderful and awful at the same time. And, uh, uh, a- and this word keeps coming up, f- and, and, and I don't think that sort of private sector recognizes that, that, that to be a high performer, to be, to accomplish more than others think possible is not driven by the desire, as you said, to prove others wrong or to prove how strong you are. You know, whenever I talk to, to, to folks like you, it, it is love. And, and, and if we, if you're gonna be a role model to, to kids, and parents are gonna push [laughs] them to go to Harvard and become doctors, maybe become astronauts and SEALs, you know, not only do they have to teach the math and work ethic, you know, how do we foster love in our kids? And how do we foster love, you know, on our teams with our employees and, and our teammates?

    2. SPSpeaker17:42

       You practice it. You show love. You do, you, you do love. Um, it's shown through your actions. It's shown through the words. It's shown through the I'm sorries. "I made a mistake. How can we make this better?" We're all human, and, uh, as humans, we just so naturally tend to cause harm to each other, even despite the best of intentions. But, um-If you have love and, and empathy, I think there's really nothing you can't solve. And I, you know, I, I feel comfortable saying that, you know? I, I've said it to a team of SEALs. I was invited back for, uh, my old alma mater SEAL team's anniversary, and my speech hindered around love.

    3. SPSpeaker18:29

       Mm.

    4. SPSpeaker18:29

       And at the face of it, you're like, "That's such a silly thing to talk about amongst a, you know, big group of burly, tough Navy SEALs." But you know what? Um, that message came through loud and clear, and it was very, very impactful to the operators I talked to afterwards of how, yes, indeed, the number one trait of a warrior is love.

    5. SPSpeaker18:49

       Mm.

    6. SPSpeaker18:50

       Whether that's love for country, love for home, love for the ideals you believe in, but of course, most importantly, love for each other-

    7. SPSpeaker18:59

       Yeah

    8. SPSpeaker18:59

       ... to keep going on.

    9. SPSpeaker19:00

       I had the opportunity to do a why discovery with, with the SEALs, and where we came to was that, um, SEALs have a capacity for, uh, to love each other more than others think possible. And what makes them special as special forces is this intense, intense love for each other, um, as much as it is for, for the organization and the country. I was struck by that. Again, these hardened warriors where love was the underpinning. It was such a special event, and there were a lot of tears in the room. Again, hardened warriors.

13. 19:31 – 20:03

    A scripture, sacrifice, and the ultimate measure of love

    1. SPSpeaker19:31

       You know, I think one of the most impactful, um, pieces of scripture for me is, "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friend." And, uh, I've seen that firsthand. And, you know, I have never had that opportunity to kind of, to show that. And I'd like to think that I would.

    2. SPSpeaker19:50

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker19:50

       I don't know if I'm courageous enough to do something like that.

    4. SPSpeaker19:53

       Mm.

    5. SPSpeaker19:53

       Um, but I think that's the greatest measure of love, and it, it certainly is something I've seen, and that's one of those things that's changed me. Uh, you asked earlier of some formative experiences, and that was certainly one of them.

14. 20:03 – 21:11

    Back to the wonder: altitude, continents below, and a warm sign-off

    1. SPSpeaker20:03

       Yeah. Uh, just to end on a lighter note, how, how many miles away are you from the Earth?

    2. SPSpeaker20:09

       Uh, well, we just had a reboost, which means that we, um, fired our thrusters to get a higher altitude. So we are currently 258 miles above the Earth.

    3. SPSpeaker20:20

       And you're flying over, I think you just flew over South America, I think.

    4. SPSpeaker20:23

       Uh, we are currently over Africa right now.

    5. SPSpeaker20:26

       Oh, you, you were, you were over South America [laughs] when-

    6. SPSpeaker20:28

       Yes

    7. SPSpeaker20:29

       ... we started the call.

    8. SPSpeaker20:30

       South America is one of my most favorite continents to fly over. [laughs]

    9. SPSpeaker20:31

       And now, and now you're over Africa.

    10. SPSpeaker20:33

        Yes, we were. [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker20:35

        [laughs]

    12. SPSpeaker20:37

        Yeah.

    13. SPSpeaker20:37

        That's-

    14. SPSpeaker20:37

        That's what happens when you're traveling 17,500 miles an hour.

    15. SPSpeaker20:40

        There you go. [laughs] Jonny, it, I can't tell you what a thrill it is to, to talk to you. I was excited, um, that you agreed to come on, on the podcast, and even more excited, uh, when you offered to do it from the space station. Thank you so, so much. Uh, and I hope I get to meet you one day when you come back down.

    16. SPSpeaker20:56

        Simon, thank you. It was an honor. Likewise, I hope to meet you one day. Take care, and goodbye from the International Space Station.

    17. SPSpeaker21:03

        Station, this is Houston ACR. That concludes the event. Thank you.

    18. SPSpeaker21:06

        Thank you to all participants. Station, we are now resuming operational audio communications. [upbeat music]

15. 21:11 – 26:05

    Sponsor segment: True Classic founder’s scrappy path from poker to SEO entrepreneurship

    1. SPSpeaker21:11

       We're trying something a little different. Instead of a traditional host-read ad, I invited Ryan Bartlett, the founder of our sponsor, True Classic, to sit down for a conversation. And it turns out there's a lot more that we can learn from him beyond just how great his T-shirts are, and his T-shirts really are great. We call this an ad with authenticity.

    2. SPSpeaker21:34

       I played poker for a living after I failed in music. Ended up failing in poker, too. It was a disaster. I went to Vegas, and even though I was decent at poker, I realized very quickly that even though I was the best of my friends, I was the worst as a professional-

    3. SPSpeaker21:48

       Mm-hmm

    4. SPSpeaker21:49

       ... in the big leagues.

    5. SPSpeaker21:49

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker21:50

       So I very quickly realized, like, this just is not gonna work out. And I didn't wanna borrow money from people. Like, that's very common in that industry. So I got out of it, and I just quit. Well, if I'm not gonna do this, the next thing is just to work in the nightclubs, and wear those jackets, and stand out in front of the clubs, and do the bottle service. So I did that for, like, a year, and I just got completely burnt out, and I was just like, "I gotta g- I gotta go back to music." That was where my heart was. So then I went back to Florida. Again, got my bachelor's in music business, and I was on to get my master's as well.

    7. SPSpeaker22:19

       Wait, so you went back to school?

    8. SPSpeaker22:21

       Back to school after all that.

    9. SPSpeaker22:22

       Wow.

    10. SPSpeaker22:23

        So this was like-

    11. SPSpeaker22:23

        Was it kind of more of a delay tactic rather than a strategy?

    12. SPSpeaker22:26

        Yeah, I just thought, like, "I can't give up on what my heart is telling me. I need to trust my gut here."

    13. SPSpeaker22:31

        Yeah.

    14. SPSpeaker22:32

        "I need to go against the money grain even though I need it. I need to just follow what I felt was true to myself." So I went back to school thinking that was the answer, and then from there, I went to LA. So I showed up in LA with, like, "All right. Let me work at a recording studio again." You just... I couldn't really get a job. I couldn't figure it out. Played in a couple groups. Um, but it just, nothing really materialized, and I was just, like, trying to force it. And finally, I was like, "Do I just wanna do this forever? Do I just wanna be, like, that guy?" And I still know a lot of them, by the way, that are still in their 40s trying to do it, struggling, just barely getting by, living in LA, and, like, no family, no nothing. And I didn't want that for my life. I wanted more. I wanted kids. I wanted a wife. I wanted a house. And so that's what led me to digital marketing, and I had, had already acquired these skills over the years of just, um, like, you know, building websites, doing, uh, graphic design. And so I got a job at an SEO company, um, in, like, 2009, and they hired me as, like, a jack-of-all-trades kind of guy. I could write. I could, I could do a bunch of things, and I was, I was useful to them. But I started listening to the salespeople sell SEO, and it was like, "5,000 a month, 10,000 a month." And I'm like, "What are they paying for SEO? This is insane. I gotta learn this thing." So I went on this journey of learning SEO and working my way up to page one. Uh, so I started my own little company called SEO Direct, and I, I worked my way up all the way to number one for, like, SEO Los Angeles, like, the hardest keywords in the world, and the leads just came flooding in. And then I just kept stacking up the retainers one after the other and building an amazing service-based business.

    15. SPSpeaker24:10

        How did you learn it? Like, you weren't watching YouTube videos.

    16. SPSpeaker24:14

        Listen, I come from the early, early days of Dreamweaver, and, and hardcore HTML, and AOL, and Prodigy, and, like, those early, early internet services. I was all in on that stuff.

    17. SPSpeaker24:26

        But how did... But, but what did you actually do to learn it?

    18. SPSpeaker24:28

        I just learned it myself. I didn't learn it in school, that's for sure. They weren't teaching any of that.

    19. SPSpeaker24:31

        From friends? Did friends teach you? Did you just-

    20. SPSpeaker24:33

        No, I would just get in there, and tinker around, and try to figure it out as I went.

    21. SPSpeaker24:36

        Just trial, trial and error.

    22. SPSpeaker24:37

        Just problem solve. Yeah.

    23. SPSpeaker24:37

        Trial and error.

    24. SPSpeaker24:38

        Just like, how do I make this program work? 'Cause YouTube wasn't really a thing back then either. There was a fair amount of, like, forums back then.

    25. SPSpeaker24:45

        Yeah.

    26. SPSpeaker24:45

        Forums were, like, the only thing back then. It... This is, this is really dating me, but, like, it was all forums. So you could find bits of information through certain forums on how to build websites and things like that, but it was just a lot of playing around. Even with, like, uh, graphic design, I d- redid one of my buddy's report cards, uh, [laughs] in high school.

    27. SPSpeaker25:05

        Redid meaning his parents saw grades that he didn't get?

    28. SPSpeaker25:07

        Yeah, he was like, "Dude, I got an F, but I need you to give me a B." And I had to, like, scan it, bring it up in Photoshop, edit it, print it out, make it look real. Like-

    29. SPSpeaker25:17

        And now, and now he's in jail.

    30. SPSpeaker25:19

        And now he's banned by his parents for life. They disown him, and they hate him.

Episode duration: 26:06