The Real Reason You Feel Empty (Even When Life Looks Good) | Musician Mike Posner

1. 0:00 – 2:17

   The Real Reason You Feel Empty

   1. SSSimon Sinek0:00

      Are you teaching people to be okay with being uncomfortable? 'Cause you talk about it, that, that pain is a teacher.

   2. MPMike Posner0:05

      I realized that I was 30 years old, I was trapped under the weight of my own success. I've got a few hits, got a few million dollars, and I'm just sort of looking around like, "Is this it?" 'Cause I got all the stuff I was supposed to. There was this asymmetry between, like, what I had to give to the world and what I had given to the world. And I said, "If I keep following that script, I, I, I know I'm never gonna close the gap."

   3. SSSimon Sinek0:36

      I have to admit something. I am not a millennial. I also don't listen to a lot of popular music. And so if I'm really honest, I didn't really know who Mike Posner was when we booked him on the podcast. Turns out he's a multi-platinum Grammy-nominated recording artist and producer. But my team knew exactly who he was because they're millennials, and for them, Mike's hits were more than just songs, they were anthems for their generation. Songs like Cooler Than Me and I Took a Pill in Ibiza became part of the zeitgeist. But I'm really glad that Mike came on the podcast. Whether you know his songs or not, whether his songs captured your feelings or not, his message actually matters to all of us. By every external metric, Mike was hugely successful, but no one prepared him for life once the party ended. Mike spent the past decade trying to find himself again. He walked across America. He almost died of a snake bite. He climbed Mount Everest, and here's the thing. It worked. He learned something beautiful about himself, self-acceptance. Mike will freely admit he is now a different person from the guy who needed to chase external validation, and his new song, I Went Back to Ibiza, tells his new story. It turns out whether you have a Grammy nomination or not, whether you're famous or not, the lessons Mike learned apply to all of us because his journey is a very human journey. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] You know,

2. 2:17 – 6:51

   Art as Alchemy: The Role of Art in Human Connection

   1. SSSimon Sinek2:17

      it's funny, they say that when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

   2. MPMike Posner2:21

      Yeah.

   3. SSSimon Sinek2:21

      And your career, your story, your presence, it seems to have shown up at the right time for the times we live in. The challenges that people are dealing with, the journeys that people are on, your story, your message, your inspiration would not have worked in the, you know, thir- 20 years ago.

   4. MPMike Posner2:44

      [laughs]

   5. SSSimon Sinek2:46

      So I don't know if you feel that.

   6. MPMike Posner2:52

      I don't know. I haven't really contemplated it before. I, I've toyed with this idea that God gives teachers pain, and if you learn to overcome that pain, you can teach others to do the same. And the teaching then is imbued with, you know, sort of like a gravitas that it wouldn't otherwise have. You're teaching from experience rather than a conceptual, like, reading of some book that you've never gone through. So I, I guess thank you. [laughs]

   7. SSSimon Sinek3:26

      [laughs]

   8. MPMike Posner3:26

      I guess thank you. Um, but you're right. You go through certain, certain trials and tribulations and challenges, we could just call them that, that, that maybe the ones that I've overcome or, you know, figured out some kind of rhyme or reason to how to get through them, maybe they were like, yeah, five, 10 years before a lot of other people are, you know, undergoing the same ones. I'm not sure. I'm just trying to share and help people where I can.

   9. SSSimon Sinek3:58

      Did you wanna be a musician or a teacher?

   10. MPMike Posner4:01

       Depends what, what age Mike we're, we're asking. [laughs] I think at 16 I just wanted to be cool and, and have some girls pay attention to me, you know, was probably as far as I had, had planned out. Definitely, definitely not a teacher. [laughs]

   11. SSSimon Sinek4:17

       And I guess it also speaks to the role of art, right, which I'm fascinated by. As an art lover, I spend, you know-

   12. MPMike Posner4:23

       Do you know how rich you sound when you say, "As an art lover"?

   13. SSSimon Sinek4:27

       Oh, my... Really?

   14. MPMike Posner4:29

       Oh, yeah. [laughs]

   15. SSSimon Sinek4:31

       Okay. Okay, now you're gonna get me... Okay, now this beautiful invitation to have you on the podcast is now gonna change, and I'm gonna pull up my soapbox and I'm gonna do all the talking now. All right?

   16. MPMike Posner4:41

       Okay. [laughs]

   17. SSSimon Sinek4:42

       'Cause that is such a trigger. [laughs]

   18. MPMike Posner4:45

       I love art too, by the way, but when you say, "As an art lover," if you start a sentence like that, [laughs] come on. As your friend, I want you to know certain people are gonna... [laughs]

   19. SSSimon Sinek4:54

       Does it sound elitist to say, "As a music lover"?

   20. MPMike Posner4:57

       No. No.

   21. SSSimon Sinek4:58

       Right?

   22. MPMike Posner4:59

       No.

   23. SSSimon Sinek4:59

       Does it sound elitist to say, "As a food lover"?

   24. MPMike Posner5:04

       In the middle.

   25. SSSimon Sinek5:05

       In the middle?

   26. MPMike Posner5:06

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. SSSimon Sinek5:06

       So I think, I think we're speaking to one of the problems with, with art, right? I understand why it doesn't sound elitist when you say it for music is because music for $14.95 a month, you have unlimited access to all the music in the world, you know, so it's accessible. But this is the mistake about art, which is art is accessible too. It's the institutions that house the art or sell the art that are the elitist assholes that I hate. I love art and I hate the art world.

   28. MPMike Posner5:36

       Yeah.

   29. SSSimon Sinek5:37

       And there are incredibly talented young artists whose work is accessible. You can visit a museum, you can visit a gallery. Many of those are free. You can also scroll through the internet and scroll through Instagram, and you can appreciate somebody's intensity and creativity all day. And so-

   30. MPMike Posner5:55

       Or you could watch a train go by.
3. 6:51 – 15:08

   The Courage to Be Vulnerable in Your Work

   1. SSSimon Sinek6:51

      Do you have to have courage to put so much of yourself and your vulnerability in your work for display? Like, why not just sing about love and happiness and joy? Why sing about loss and pain and hurt? 'Cause most, most art or most music, it's superficial. Let's be honest.

   2. MPMike Posner7:10

      Mm.

   3. SSSimon Sinek7:11

      The lyricists and the lyrics that are written, it's forced rhymes and silly stories and made up ideas. What is it about your work? Is it courage? Is it naivete that you are so raw?

   4. MPMike Posner7:29

      Well, first of all, thank you for, for recognizing that. As you asked the question, I had this, this riff that our friend NQ sometimes goes on. I know he's been a guest on your-

   5. SSSimon Sinek7:42

      Yeah. He's... His... I loved his episode.

   6. MPMike Posner7:45

      He has this great riff that he'll sometimes do on stage, and he says, "Art is alchemy."

   7. SSSimon Sinek7:49

      Yeah.

   8. MPMike Posner7:50

      Okay? So you're taking pain that you undergo in life, and pain is a part of life. We all go through pain. Every single person at some point will undergo extreme stress. Not like, "Oh, I stubbed my toe." Like, man, this person die- like, every single human being gets the privilege of experiencing extreme pain at some point. Artists have this gift. We get to make, if we do our job well, something beautiful out of that pain. So our friend, Adam NQ, he calls that alchemy. He says, "You are alchemizing pain into beauty." Now, if someone else like you, as an art lover, can go either listen to the song or hear the poem or see the painting, and that imbues you with a sense of fellowship, okay? Going, "Wow, I too have felt that sort of pain," but it was hard for me to describe. It was hard for me to put my finger on. Maybe because it's hard to even describe in words to begin with, but if you get to play with music or you get to play with color, th- then suddenly you can put your finger on this thing that was otherwise ineffable. And then you, Simon, as our placeholder, as an art lover, can say, "Wow, I'm not the only one." So art is a artist with a capital A. And I agree with you, you know, a lot of the art, and it's not with, with judgment, 'cause I've done it too, right?

   9. SSSimon Sinek9:34

      Yeah, yeah.

   10. MPMike Posner9:35

       Most of the art or the music, most of the music rather, that we have, it- it's not art. It's a commodity.

   11. SSSimon Sinek9:42

       Yeah.

   12. MPMike Posner9:42

       Most of the artists become brand ambassadors for a picture of themselves that they used to be.

   13. SSSimon Sinek9:48

       Or it's simply a commercial enterprise, and it's a product, and they choose the product that sells well.

   14. MPMike Posner9:52

       Right. Right, a- and nothing wrong with it.

   15. SSSimon Sinek9:55

       Yep.

   16. MPMike Posner9:56

       But art, as you asked, with a capital A, it often involves... I haven't thought about it enough to say it always involves, but it often involves this sort of alchemy, and it's somebody saying, the artist saying, "Hey, this is what it's like for me to be human."

   17. SSSimon Sinek10:13

       Yep.

   18. MPMike Posner10:14

       "This is the stuff I don't tell other people," or, "I, I don't even know how to... I, I don't even kn- know how to start telling, but when I sit down at this keyboard, I p- d- pick up this guitar, this is what it's like for me to be me. Anybody else? Does anyone else feel this way?" And if we do a good job, someone hears it, looks, sees it, and they might not even be born yet. That's the crazy thing. And they go, "Thank you. Me too."

   19. SSSimon Sinek10:49

       Okay, I have so many thoughts bubbling. I have talked about this publicly, that we have misinterpreted vulnerability in broadcast, that going into a room by yourself with your phone, turning on the camera, and crying and talking about how you're a loss-

   20. MPMike Posner11:07

       [laughs]

   21. SSSimon Sinek11:08

       ... is not really vulnerability, but it is broadcast, and it's actually more difficult to say those exact same words to a friend in person in private than it is by yourself in your room with your phone, right?

   22. MPMike Posner11:23

       Right.

   23. SSSimon Sinek11:25

       But this is where I need your help. What's the difference between the broadcast of my feelings by myself in my room with my camera and you sitting by yourself writing down your lyrics, strumming your guitar, recording the album, and putting it out there? W- why is one art and designed to be a mirror to make others feel not alone in that pain, and the other seems to kind of like... I know it feels different, but it feels to miss the mark. Like, 'cause they're similar. What makes them different?

   24. MPMike Posner11:57

       Well, it comes down to intention because you're right. Y- you know, going alone and the guitar... Look, I got my microphone right here. You know, I could be alone in this room. This is where I do my music, by the way. If I just sit here and I write a song from that exact viewpoint, which is not to-create a human connection and fellowship, but is actually to get attention. And NQ riffs on this. He said, "That's not alchemy. That's turning pain to pain."

   25. SSSimon Sinek12:29

       The equation would be then if you're broadcasting and the likes and the follows are the thing that alleviate the pain, you miss the point.

   26. MPMike Posner12:41

       Yes.

   27. SSSimon Sinek12:41

       Because the album sales and the downloads of your song are not the thing that relieve the pain, but the album sales and the downloads are a recognition that others may either appreciate the music superficially or feel not alone when they share your pain.

   28. MPMike Posner12:56

       Perhaps. Perhaps. You know, they could be.

   29. SSSimon Sinek12:59

       'Cause you didn't write the song and say, "This is gonna be the hit."

   30. MPMike Posner13:04

       No, I'm always surprised [laughs] by those that... You know, I've had, I think it's five songs that you could air quote "call hits" in my career. Two have been that I sing, and then the other three have been songs that I've written for other artists-
4. 15:08 – 17:23

   Are We Afraid of Being Uncomfortable?

   1. SSSimon Sinek15:08

      go back to something that we said before. I said there were lots of thoughts, and there's another one that I had, which is you had the courage, and I call it courage, to put your feelings, your hardships in a song for all to hear. But do we live in a world right now where people s- and I'll skew younger, you know, the younger people, or maybe old people, not to be ageist, are afraid of discomfort? And the reason I say younger people is because I think, you know, they didn't live through the war, they didn't live through civil rights, you know? Arguably, there's a lot of discomfort these days. There's a, seems to be a lot of upheaval and, and discomfort these days for all kinds of reasons. Are you teaching people to be okay with being uncomfortable? 'Cause you talk about it, that, that pain is a teacher. But are, are we learning the lessons? Are we learning the lessons of pain now, or are we just avoidant, and putting up barriers and walls, and, you know, creating boundaries? I put it in air quotes because the pain is just too much. Scott Galloway talks about this. Like, go screw something up. Go fail. Go humiliate yourself. It'll be more valuable to your life than none of those difficult, hard, and uncomfortable feelings.

   2. MPMike Posner16:24

      Yeah, a- absolutely. I, I wouldn't... You know, I got a degree from Duke University in sociology, but I haven't really kept up with that in the last 20 years, Simon. I'm vaguely familiar with the archetypal stereotypes of Gen Z and millennial, all, all this stuff, but I wouldn't s- be so bold as to say a whole generation's this way or that way. I can say in my own life many of the things that you just referenced are true.

   3. SSSimon Sinek16:55

      Yeah.

   4. MPMike Posner16:55

      That things went relatively well. I grew up in a suburb of Detroit. There was no capital T trauma in my childhood. I got really good grades. I went to Duke University, all the while sort of developing this skill as a musician. Before I graduated from Duke University, I won myself a record deal. My career had started to take off. I was becoming famous.

5. 17:23 – 20:40

   Trapped Under the Weight of Success

   1. MPMike Posner17:24

      Flash cut forward, now I'm 30 years old, and I've got a few hits, got a few million dollars in the bank account, and I'm just sort of looking around like, "Is this it?" 'Cause I got all the stuff I was supposed to. When it comes to, like, the American society or, like, at... What's the pinnacle? It's like president, rock star, you know? It's like, [laughs] which one would you rather be? At least for our gener- I think now it's, like, in- Instagram influencer is up there for kids. But for people my age, it's like, I, I was a pop star, man. You can't go that much higher than that, you know? [laughs] Like-

   2. SSSimon Sinek18:05

      It's true. I think pop star-

   3. MPMike Posner18:06

      Like-

   4. SSSimon Sinek18:06

      ... is even higher than movie star.

   5. MPMike Posner18:08

      Maybe. Perhaps. I think then there's levels to each, you know?

   6. SSSimon Sinek18:12

      [laughs]

   7. MPMike Posner18:12

      I realized that I was 30 years old. I was trapped under the weight of my own success. I was living in West Hollywood, and I, I, I just thought, "You know, this can't be itTh- th- this ca- this can't be it. And there was this feeling, Simon, that maybe you'll resonate with, and I'm willing to bet s- m- more than one person will resonate with listening. There was this feeling like there was more inside me than I was expressing. Like, I, I had more to give inside my soul than my actual life reflected. There was this asymmetry between, like, what I had to give to the world and what I had given to the world, and I couldn't figure out how to close that gap. And people would say to me at the time, "But you've done so much. You're the guy that sang Cooler Than Me. You did I Took a Pill in Ibiza. Like, y- you got nominated for a Grammy. What, like, what do you mean? You've given so much to the world." But it, it wasn't about the external. It was this just internal knowing, like, something is off. And I remember, like, for years I felt like, man, I was just, like, one supplement away, or, like, one new biohacking trick away, or one change in my diet away from feeling peace, from feeling like my life was the way it was supposed to be.

   8. SSSimon Sinek19:44

      Mm.

   9. MPMike Posner19:45

      And at age 30, I said, "I don't know how I'm gonna close this peace gap, but I know if I just keep doing what I'm doing," like, 'cause I was on a trajectory.

   10. SSSimon Sinek20:00

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MPMike Posner20:00

       I was supposed to make albums, then go on tour, then make another album, then go on tour, and then make another album, then go on tour. I was supposed to basically do that until I died or became so irrelevant that it was no longer a business that n- that, that a multinational corporation could count on, [laughs] right? So I, I said, "If I keep following that script, I, I, I know I'm never gonna close the gap."

   12. SSSimon Sinek20:25

       Mm.

   13. MPMike Posner20:25

       That's a recipe to not close the gap. So to Scott Galloway's point, like, I have to try something else.

   14. SSSimon Sinek20:31

       Mm.

   15. MPMike Posner20:33

       So that's when I chose to do this crazy idea,

6. 20:40 – 22:40

   Walking Across America: Getting Out of His Comfort Zone

   1. MPMike Posner20:40

      which was to walk across the, the United States.

   2. SSSimon Sinek20:43

      Mm.

   3. MPMike Posner20:44

      I wanted to start walking on the East Coast, the Atlantic Ocean-

   4. SSSimon Sinek20:47

      Mm

   5. MPMike Posner20:47

      ... New Jersey, and walk all the way to the West Coast. It is some strange effort. I was trying to lose myself and find myself at the same time, and I only tell this whole wild story because at age 30, I made the decision to go, and then I actually started when I was 31. It's a funny change of numbers because I grew up Jewish, and Judaism, you're supposed to have a bar mitzvah when you're 13, and that's when you're supposed to become a man.

   6. SSSimon Sinek21:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MPMike Posner21:16

      But now I wasn't 13, I was 31.

   8. SSSimon Sinek21:18

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MPMike Posner21:19

      And I realized, a- and you know, I'm not a man. Why am I not a man? Because I haven't gone through hard stuff. Life just kind of worked.

   10. SSSimon Sinek21:26

       Mm.

   11. MPMike Posner21:26

       And there's been hardship internally, but you know what? Instead of trying to make myself more famous, more money, so I can get more stuff and make my little box inside LA more comfortable, I'm gonna make it as uncomfortable as possible. I'm gonna do something I don't know if I can do, and it's gonna be physically hard. It's actually gonna be dangerous, and it's gonna be so divorced from what I'm supposed to do that it might actually risk the work that I put in the last 10 years of my life to become a pop star. And that's what my agents and managers told me. They said, "Y- you're gonna ruin your whole career by doing this." Okay, let's go. And for me, that was my real bar mitzvah. That was my real starting to become an adult. I think there's a lot more to that. So I agree with you. You know, a, a lot of what mental health is, uh, supposed to be is actually mental weakness. And it's like, "I'm gonna take o- time off. I'm gonna make boundaries. I'm gonna shield myself from stuff that's challenging or difficult." That's not mental health. That's weakness. That's you can't deal with things that are challenging. No, you actually wanna become inoculated. Choose hardship.

7. 22:40 – 24:54

   Why Humans Actually Crave Challenges

   1. MPMike Posner22:41

      And I realize, like, maybe some people w- w- listening to this are thinking, "Oh, this is absurd. You know, Mike Posner, you're like a healthy, young, white guy who's, has a lot of money saying choose hardship." And I'm saying, yes, you're right. I had a life that didn't have so much hardship. In fact, it was so devoid of hardship that it was empty. We need hardship. We pretend that we don't want any challenges in our life. In actuality, we crave them. We crave challenges because even though our intellectual minds tell us, "Hey, let's make life as comfortable as possible," the only way to grow, the real way to grow is through challenges. Challenges come, and we ask, "What are we supposed to learn from this?"

   2. SSSimon Sinek23:38

      Who were you when you set off in New Jersey, and who were you when you arrived in California?

   3. MPMike Posner23:44

      Well, I can remember when I arrived in California, I looked at my friend and I said, "Man, before I started this, I was such a bitch." [laughs] I just... You know, you learn. There's a through line of me and all of us I think never changes, but there's a lot that we can change, more than we give ourselves credit for. We gotta be real careful when we start saying, "I'm this kind of person. I'm an introvert. I'm an avoidant type of person. I'm an anxious type of per-" No, you're not. You have avoidant tendency. You have avoidant habits, patterns. You have anxious habits, patterns. A lot of stuff we can change, we don't give ourselves credit for. So to your question, w- what changed? A lot of things didn't change.You know? A lot of things didn't change. I didn't learn to become a better person in relationships. I didn't become somebody that somebody else would wanna marry. I didn't find joy and fulfillment. But what did change, I found a freaking tougher part of myself, man, that was never gonna come out in West Hollywood,

8. 24:54 – 38:04

   The Snake Bite: When Attention Meets Authenticity

   1. MPMike Posner24:54

      'cause I almost died on the journey. I got bit by a poisonous rattlesnake and spent, I think it was three nights in the ICU, and my leg swelled to the size of an elephant trunk. And, and when that happened, I got really famous. I got a lot of attention, got picked up by mainstream media and TMZ, and my Instagram followers went up. So I was getting all this attention after I got hurt, and it was a crossroads moment, 'cause I was either gonna go back to living my life based on how much attention I could get from other people, which goes back to the beginning of our conversation, or I was gonna finish this thing. Because the more I, more I was hurt, that's the more attention I got.

   2. SSSimon Sinek25:47

      Walking.

   3. MPMike Posner25:47

      And when I was walking, I didn't get that much attention. So-

   4. SSSimon Sinek25:51

      There's an irony in it, isn't there?

   5. MPMike Posner25:53

      It's ridiculous. [laughs]

   6. SSSimon Sinek25:54

      There's an irony, which is if you had just walked across the country and not gotten bitten by a snake-

   7. MPMike Posner25:59

      [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek26:01

      ... you would've learned your lessons. You would've had your hardship. You would've come out and said, "I was this. I'm now this," and, you know, different because you got bitten by a snake, but, you know, you would've had your lessons of humility and all of the rest of it, right? But walking across the country is, for the rest of us, is boring. You know what I mean? Like, hearing about-

   9. MPMike Posner26:19

      Mm-hmm

   10. SSSimon Sinek26:19

       ... a guy walking is boring.

   11. MPMike Posner26:22

       Right.

   12. SSSimon Sinek26:22

       Not for the person doing it.

   13. MPMike Posner26:23

       I understand.

   14. SSSimon Sinek26:24

       And so there's an irony that the very thing you're trying to escape is the thing that doubled because of the event, of the drama, the near death. Because it's newsworthy, right? And this is where I, I find this whole conversation, quite frankly, difficult. Because it's all true. Hardship builds character. Hardship m- teaches you things about yourself you would never learn. We don't learn anything when things go well. We learn things when th- things go badly. All the lessons are in, in, in the difficult. Everything you're saying is true. Challenging ourselves, getting out of our comfort zones, all of this is good advice and makes great posters with, you know, dangling kittens. All easier said than done in practice. You know, somebody who says, "I'm gonna walk across the country," and then you hear about you getting bitten by a snake, you're like, "Eh," you know? It sort of only adds the risk. The reason I struggle with the conversation, I'm even struggling being articulate about why I'm struggling with the conversation-

   15. MPMike Posner27:24

       Yeah, let's get to it

   16. SSSimon Sinek27:24

       ... is because, it's because, like, there's two kinds of hardship, right? There's an event. I got bitten by a snake. That's an event. That's a one kind of hardship. You know, I lost somebody I love. That's a hardship. My relationship collapsed. That's a hardship, right? And there's a different kind of hardship, which is sort of like I'm trying to change my lot in life. I started my own business. I've decided I'm gonna live a life without a corporate job. And that hardship is more ongoing and more extended. Where I'm trying to get to is, like, are we talking about either one? Are we talking about both? Because some hardship we can create for ourselves. You know, it's called risk. And other hardship just happens to us whether we like it or not.

   17. MPMike Posner28:15

       Yes. Yes.

   18. SSSimon Sinek28:17

       Take a breakup, for example, right? Someone's not in a relationship, and they're so afraid of being hurt that they keep their walls up so high and are so incapable of vulnerability that they'll never actually get the relationship, and they spend their life angry that they can't be in a relationship, not recognizing that they're the ones that have built this wall around them out of fear of losing. Or you can actually be in the relationship-

   19. MPMike Posner28:35

       What are you talk- wait, wait, wait. Do, have you read my journals from ages-

   20. SSSimon Sinek28:38

       [laughs]

   21. MPMike Posner28:39

       ... uh, 20 to 34? What, what's going on? [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek28:44

       Or you can be in the relationship and so afraid of losing it that you become a pleaser to the other person, manipulating your own self into points of quite extreme discomfort just to ensure the other person's happy for fear of losing the relationship, which, by the way, will probably shorten the life of the relationship because you're not being yourself.

   23. MPMike Posner29:07

       For sure. Yeah.

   24. SSSimon Sinek29:09

       And this is what vulnerability is, right? Vulnerability is the risk to lose the thing you hope you don't lose.

   25. MPMike Posner29:20

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SSSimon Sinek29:20

       Vulnerability is stepping into the thing that absolutely could fail. And we're not talking about being blind. There's a difference between jumping out of a plane and jumping out of a plane with a parachute. You know, they both have the same thrill, but one has certainty and one does not of, of, of failure. And when I make the blanket broad s- uh, comment about, you know, afraid of being uncomfortable, we see it exhibited, which is, "I'm so afraid of breaking up with you, even though we've dated for six months. You know what I'll do? I'll just ghost you."

   27. MPMike Posner29:54

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SSSimon Sinek29:55

       "It's easier for me. Nothing personal. I know it's traumatic for you, but it's just easier for me because I don't wanna have an uncomfortable-"

   29. MPMike Posner30:01

       Yeah

   30. SSSimon Sinek30:01

       ... "conversation and break up with you." Or, "I'm just gonna quit my job. You know, it's not going great, but instead of talking to my boss, I think I'll just quit 'cause it's easier for me." You know? And that's what I'm talking about, which is it is the discomfort, even when it blows up in our face, that the lessons will happen. 'Cause you and I have both walked into things, sometimes blindly and sometimes consciously, that did not go well, I would argue went extremely badlyAnd I can be blaming, be like, "They did this, they did that," and some of that might be true, but it also gives me the opportunity to be like, "How did I show up? What did I do to pour gas on that fire?"
9. 38:04 – 46:17

   Finding Peace Through Discomfort: The Ultimate Paradox

   1. SSSimon Sinek38:04

      I love the way you speak about peace and grace and moments, you know? And I, I think you're right. I think if, if you're living a life well-lived, if you're leaning into the discomfort in the way that you're describing it, the result is calm, right? Because the opposite of calm is the anxiety of how many followers, how much money, how much fame, right? That is not calm. That's anxious. Me proving myself to myself, trying to convince myself that I have value relative to someone else. And I think this to me is the ultimate message that I find in your work, which is it's not about the pursuit of discomfort, it's not about the pursuit of difficult, it's not about the pursuit of any of those things. It's the pursuit of calm, peace, a restful mind. And you have learned that these challenges that you put for yourself and these acceptances and the difficulties, what you have found is that has been the best route to find that peace, which is counterintuitive, that peace came from stress, not from pretending you're a baller. And it is a deeply personal journey because only we know the stress and the discomfort and the unease that we feel, because we can project anything we want. And there's a deep, deep honesty that has to go with, am I calm? Am I at peace? And I think that's perhaps one of the reasons that, you know, as I get older, I, I'm, I'm becoming that person that drove me nuts when I was younger. Like-

   2. MPMike Posner40:03

      Me too. [laughs]

   3. SSSimon Sinek40:04

      It's really, it's really annoying, you know? Where when I was younger, I thought I knew everything, and now I realize how little I know, and I actually find it more comforting knowing that I know less.

   4. MPMike Posner40:14

      Mm.

   5. SSSimon Sinek40:15

      Where I thought I had to have comfort by knowing more and proving-

   6. MPMike Posner40:18

      Mm

   7. SSSimon Sinek40:19

      ... I could do more, and now just I'm total, a total peace going, "I know so little, and I'm, I'm cool with that." If life goes normally, stuff goes bad, and so, you know, the benefit of age is not, is not that you get wisdom just 'cause you're older. It's just that the likelihood that you've had to struggle a little bit is higher. Some people find those lessons at a very young age. You know, y- uh, an 18-year-old who's n- had a bad run can have the same wisdom as a 70-year-old, you know? But the point is they lived a little. And what you're talking about is injecting life experience into the system, injecting the hardship, injecting it. And you can sit around and wait for it. It'll happen at some point.

   8. MPMike Posner41:06

      Yes, it will.

   9. SSSimon Sinek41:07

      But you have agency. We can inject it. And nobody's saying walk across the country f- you know, s- but there are little things that we can do, little risks that we can take in our careers, in our relationships. Somebody recently said to me, "I don't tell you enough how much I love you."

   10. MPMike Posner41:27

       Hmm.

   11. SSSimon Sinek41:28

       And I, I took that exactly how it was intended, and I felt more loved in that moment from the risk of telling me that, "I, I don't tell you enough, not because I don't feel it. It's just I don't know how you're gonna receive it, and I don't know if you feel the same way, but I realize I don't tell you how much I love you." And it was better... That one sentence made me feel more loved than the daily acts of kindness. My point is that was an injection. That was a conscious decision to inject stress and fear into the system. It happened to have gone well. It doesn't always, and that's part of it, which is sometimes we don't get the response we're hoping for, and that's why we avoid doing it again. And that's where I'm struck by your message. I think it's about peace and calm, not about stress or discomfort.

   12. MPMike Posner42:32

       I agree. I, I'm l- I'm glad that person told you how much they, they love you, Simon. A lot of people love you a lot, and I think you're quite lovable. Man, [laughs] I do.

   13. SSSimon Sinek42:46

       Thanks, Mike

   14. MPMike Posner42:46

       I do, and-

   15. SSSimon Sinek42:47

       Too bad we're doing this virtually. We could hug now

   16. MPMike Posner42:50

       A big hug, man. I'll give you a big bear hug. You're right. Thank you for distilling, you know, our conversation further. It's not about doing some crazy thing. In fact-

   17. SSSimon Sinek43:01

       No

   18. MPMike Posner43:01

       ... some of the crazy things I've done, I feel like I had to do just to realize I didn't have to do them. [laughs]

   19. SSSimon Sinek43:09

       There you go. There, that, and that's the problem. That's the problem. Because we see somebody on Instagram who does this, and now we think it's a cycle. We think that, that if we do this every day and we overstress the body and overstress the mind constantly, that's what's making us stronger, but it's only adding more stress. And the pursuit isn't strength. The pursuit isn't grit. The pursuit is peace, a calm mind. You embody everything you talk about, and you and I both know that that is rare.

   20. MPMike Posner43:41

       Thank you.

   21. SSSimon Sinek43:42

       And it's a joy to, to be in it with you, you know?

   22. MPMike Posner43:48

       I appreciate that. You know, I'm, I'm very much still building the ship as I sail. I sometimes leave the toilet seat up, and I'm known for forgetting my wallet in airports three to four times per year. [laughs] But, but all that being said, I receive what you just said.

   23. SSSimon Sinek44:02

       And it's not to promote an album. "Hey, you can find my wallet at LAX."

   24. MPMike Posner44:07

       [laughs] "Use my credit card for whatever you want."

   25. SSSimon Sinek44:10

       That's right.

   26. MPMike Posner44:11

       "You can even use it to buy me more-"

   27. SSSimon Sinek44:13

       You can u-

   28. MPMike Posner44:13

       "... tunes of my songs."

   29. SSSimon Sinek44:13

       "Buy my album with my credit card. Buy one for your friends."

   30. MPMike Posner44:17

       [laughs]
10. 46:17 – 52:23

    The Journey Is the Destination: Lessons From Everest

    1. MPMike Posner46:17

       And I lived that, because after I walked across America, I climbed Everest. And when I was on Everest, I was like, "This is a really dumb way to die-

    2. SSSimon Sinek46:27

       Yeah

    3. MPMike Posner46:28

       ... if I die here." And thankfully, praise God, I didn't die there.

    4. SSSimon Sinek46:35

       'Cause people forget that getting to the top is only halfway.

    5. MPMike Posner46:37

       Yeah, [laughs] exactly. Well played. Um, [laughs] so, and so the, the point is that I risked my life for self-improvement, literally. I almost died twice exploring myself, which is selfish. Okay? There's lot of worthy reasons to die. All of them involve other human beings.

    6. SSSimon Sinek47:01

       Yeah.

    7. MPMike Posner47:03

       None of them involve exploring yourself.

    8. SSSimon Sinek47:06

       Yeah.

    9. MPMike Posner47:06

       So any of these things, like, when pushed to the extreme, they kind of fall apart. And, and what's left is, like, this moment in our lives contributing to others, a feeling of love or transcendence if we can transmit that to another person like your friend did to you in that moment.

    10. SSSimon Sinek47:29

        Yeah.

    11. MPMike Posner47:31

        Like, what's left? After all this intellectual snobbery-

    12. SSSimon Sinek47:35

        Yeah

    13. MPMike Posner47:35

        ... and, like, personal growth of, you know, it's like we're here walking each other home.

    14. SSSimon Sinek47:42

        Yeah.

    15. MPMike Posner47:42

        We're all gonna die.

    16. SSSimon Sinek47:44

        Yeah.

    17. MPMike Posner47:45

        And, and can we make each other's walk a little more com- Can we hold someone else's hand?

    18. SSSimon Sinek47:50

        I'm realizing we just came up with an accidental aphorism, which, you know-

    19. MPMike Posner47:53

        Uh-oh.

    20. SSSimon Sinek47:54

        Yeah, I know. Uh-

    21. MPMike Posner47:55

        Woo. Sound the alarms. By the way, before, 'cause I ha- get the feeling maybe we're wrapping up, I want you to know that I wore my grown-up shirt today.

    22. SSSimon Sinek48:04

        Why?

    23. MPMike Posner48:05

        Because I just felt like this is a serious podcast, man.

    24. SSSimon Sinek48:09

        Oh, my God.

    25. MPMike Posner48:10

        You wanna [laughs] be business.

    26. SSSimon Sinek48:11

        If, if you think this is a serious podcast, I have failed.

    27. MPMike Posner48:14

        [laughs]

    28. SSSimon Sinek48:16

        Seriously, I have failed.

    29. MPMike Posner48:20

        Oh.

    30. SSSimon Sinek48:20

        Um-

Episode duration: 52:24