What Your Love Life Can Teach You About Work Relationships with Esther Perel | A Bit of Optimism

1. 0:00 – 3:12

   Mobility vs long-term bonds: a kindergarten friendship lesson

   1. EPEsther Perel0:00

      I'll give you an, a, a little anecdote. I don't think anecdotes de- describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting. My younger son was in kindergarten. He had a very c- best friend. I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend. No. I went to the principal. I said, "Why did you separate them? They were getting so along. It was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from, from age six." She said, "They need to learn to make new friends each time." I said, "He's not being trained for mobility. He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships. It's not the same." And it was really cl- that was the idea. The idea is not how do you continue a long-standing friendship, it's how do you make new friends all the time? [laughs] I thought that was just-

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:46

      Oh, it's, so, so-

   3. EPEsther Perel0:47

      ... an amazing cultural encounter.

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:49

      Wow. So, wow. So we're actually training our young to suck it up and get over it and move on. [laughs] The quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. This is an idea that Esther Perel has been trying to instill in us for decades.

   5. EPEsther Perel1:08

      I imagine a world where people can experience a sense of aliveness and vitality in their relationships.

   6. SSSimon Sinek1:16

      She is the guru of human relationships, and she's been trying to teach us in all of her work how we can have successful romantic relationships. I've known Esther for years, and candidly, when we've gone out for dinner, I have definitely taken advantage of our friendship and asked her for relationship advice, and it's always been amazing. And we agree on so many things, which is why I was so excited to have her on the podcast. Our work overlaps so much. We both believe that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives in our personal lives and the quality of our lives at work. Esther believes it so much she's just launched a new product, a set of question cards called Where Should We Begin? At Work. So we go deep. We talk about relationships, happy relationships, struggling relationships, all the kinds of relationships, and how we learn to navigate relationships, how it will benefit us in our personal lives and in our professional lives. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] Esther.

   7. EPEsther Perel2:21

      Yes. [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek2:21

      You know you're, you know you're one of my favorite people in the world, right?

   9. EPEsther Perel2:24

      [laughs] It is a mutual experience. [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek2:29

       You're one of those friends that I... You and I have known each other a long time. Um, I saw you a lot when I lived in New York. It's been more difficult since I've moved to LA. But you're one of those people, you're one of those friends that we don't talk as often as people think we do, but every time we talk, we pick up where we left off.

   11. EPEsther Perel2:47

       That is true.

   12. SSSimon Sinek2:47

       It's as if no time has passed, every single time. And this is no-

   13. EPEsther Perel2:51

       Actually, before we talk, we look at each other and we smile. [laughs] A kind of a smile of recognition and complicity. [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek2:58

       You're right. Every time I see you, whether it's at an event or even just on the screen, you're absolutely right, my first, my first reaction is a smile. It's like a, it's like a, a baby being shown a toy.

   15. EPEsther Perel3:10

       [laughs]

   16. SSSimon Sinek3:10

       [laughs]

2. 3:12 – 5:44

   How romantic relationships transformed since the 1980s

   1. SSSimon Sinek3:12

      I was thinking this morning as I was getting ready, what, like I, I... There's actually a very genuine question that I have for you that pretty much you and only you could answer. Um, you've been doing what you do for a long time, which means you have been doing, helping couples and helping people in relationships and overcome difficulties that they have through many changes of culture and politics and world events. I'm so curious what the dynamic of relationships has changed over the course of a career.

   2. EPEsther Perel3:50

      Um, I mean, the arc is, is very, um, full of changes.

   3. SSSimon Sinek3:57

      Yeah.

   4. EPEsther Perel3:57

      So, um, I arrive in the United States in '83, and we are talking about just a few years since divorce has been legalized, no-fault divorce. That in itself is an enormous change to the structure of marriage and family life, um, because the rate of divorce increases dramatically, primarily spurred by women. Women are enough often economically independent, even at on every level of the scale, to decide that re- relationships and marriages in particular need to be emotionally fulfilling because m- it's not a, just a material reliance. Contraception has been democratized, um, so child con- you know, reproduction is now controlled. You, and reproduction can be, um, technologically assisted, and it can be technologically stopped. So on both, on both sides-

   5. SSSimon Sinek4:59

      Mm-hmm

   6. EPEsther Perel4:59

      ... sexuality fundamentally changes its meaning from the sole domain of biology to now becoming socialized and becoming a property of the self, something that you define your sexuality, not just a part of your condition.

   7. SSSimon Sinek5:12

      Mm-hmm.

   8. EPEsther Perel5:13

      Um, people go from five, six, seven children to one, two potentially, or even the choice of none. Um, sexuality shifts from a marital duty, and has already been, but now even more, to a marital, to, to a sexual duty, uh, to a sexual ple- uh, um, desire, sorry. From duty to desire. So that's, that's just a few small things in the, in the romantic realm. Work at that time is

3. 5:44 – 7:26

   Work and marriage converge: from service economy to identity economy

   1. EPEsther Perel5:44

      shifting from, you know, it's basically in the midst of what we call the service economy, from the production economy of the land and the agriculture to now a service economy. And by the way, so is marriage. Marriage becomes a service economy too. We want affection, we want trust, we want... things that have to do with the quality of the, of the emotional connection between the people. And from there, gradually, these two units, which are really going parallel but also cross, we kind of have a dual revolution taking place at the same time. Work goes from s- production to service to identity, an identity economy in which we turn to work for a host of existential needs that used to be part of our religious lives and our communal lives-

   2. SSSimon Sinek6:33

      Yeah

   3. EPEsther Perel6:33

      ... that now become part of work: purpose, meaning, belonging, community, [chuckles] things that had nothing to do with why, what we-

   4. SSSimon Sinek6:41

      You and I have both talked about this, how we used to get purpose from church, we used to get community from our neighbors. We had bowling leagues for our friends. How all of tho- you know, church attendance declines, bowling leagues disappear, and now we demand that work fulfill all of those needs.

   5. EPEsther Perel6:56

      And we deferred relat- marriage, per se, marriage or committed relationships by 10 years. So work is the primary hub for-

   6. SSSimon Sinek7:05

      Right

   7. EPEsther Perel7:05

      ... your social connection and for all these other needs. It's an amazing thing to, to, to observe.

   8. SSSimon Sinek7:10

      Yeah.

   9. EPEsther Perel7:11

      This is all before still the internet.

   10. SSSimon Sinek7:14

       Right.

   11. EPEsther Perel7:14

       Then comes internet, then comes social media, then comes AI. I mean, you-- at every level, relationships change, because I think it's all my work on relationships.

4. 7:26 – 12:08

   When happiness becomes glue, not a perk (in marriage and at work)

   1. SSSimon Sinek7:26

      What, what, what were the common... When you arrived in '83 and you started your practice, what were the common themes that, that, uh, uh, in, in the, in the '80s that, that-- again, just common themes of the couples that would come see you, uh, in the '80s?

   2. EPEsther Perel7:42

      I mean, themes were always, you know, communication, for example, has always been a theme or, or, or conflict or pro- basically the orig- the origins of couples... This is actually an interesting tease. The origins of couples therapy.

   3. SSSimon Sinek7:59

      Yeah.

   4. EPEsther Perel7:59

      Originally, people came to see you as a couple because somebody had said that there were issues with the child, and that maybe they were not all about the child, but they were actually about the couple. But in fact, couples therapy really became a discipline on its own when, for the first time, the survival of the family depended on the happiness of the couple.

   5. SSSimon Sinek8:24

      Right.

   6. EPEsther Perel8:25

      Because as long as people were married for life and you couldn't get out and there was no exit, it didn't really matter if you got along or you didn't get along. It would be nice, but in any case, you were stuck.

   7. SSSimon Sinek8:34

      Right.

   8. EPEsther Perel8:34

      Once you could leave, you needed the relationship to really be much better.

   9. SSSimon Sinek8:38

      Right.

   10. EPEsther Perel8:38

       And this f- and that meant that the only way the family will stay together in its original constellation is if the couple is relatively content. And so that brought couples more and more to come to couples therapy.

   11. SSSimon Sinek8:52

       Right.

   12. EPEsther Perel8:53

       Be it issues of conflict, addiction, violence, communication, sexuality, sexual incompatibility, you name it, you know? At my-- in my time, the-- around it was the first conversations about family leave.

   13. SSSimon Sinek9:08

       Yeah.

   14. EPEsther Perel9:09

       There was no mater- you know, there was no maternity leave or paternity leave in the US. The first, uh, p- uh, presentations around infertility and fertility issues and different ways of, of conception. Um, the first conversations in the office, I'm saying the first, not in the gen- you know, around issues of non-monogamy and polyamory. Um, so all of this and, and the, the personal m- m- development movement, the growth movement of the '60s that completely seeped into every aspect of the way we think we deserve to be happy.

   15. SSSimon Sinek9:45

       This, this is, this is an amazing insight here, which is the, the correlation between being stuck in something and desire for happiness or, or, or, or, or pursuit of happiness. That when you're stuck in something, happiness is a nice to have, but you don't bother working on it because it doesn't actually matter because you can't go anywhere. So happiness is not a, not a glue. Happiness is a, is a perk, where when the ability to leave a relationship becomes now an option or an easier option, uh, uh, uh, and that there's less legal complications, there's less stigma, all of the things that go with it-

   16. EPEsther Perel10:25

       Yep

   17. SSSimon Sinek10:25

       ... now happiness becomes glue, not, not a perk.

   18. EPEsther Perel10:29

       Correct.

   19. SSSimon Sinek10:30

       And I, and I can't help but compare that to work as well, where, you know, w- w- we could ar- a strong argument could be made in the 1950s, for example, where '60s or even '70s, where people gave their whole lives to one company, and there was a, you know, there was a better deal where we looked after each other and the company would never think of laying you off, and that's all true. But the concept of, like, happy at work, I mean, you worked for the company and the company worked for you, and there-- it just sort of-- I wouldn't call it stuck, I would call it stasis. Um, but now you get to a, a modern day, and even when I compare the young generation to my generation, where I would never dream when I was starting my career, we would never dream of quitting a job within less than a year because it would destroy your resume. Where now, young people are very comfortable quitting at any time. They're also very comfortable quitting without another job lined up, which for somebody like me is, like, mind-blowing, right? And, and I think now if the, if the, if the ease of getting out of it has lost the social stigma, it's not gonna destroy your resume, et cetera, et cetera, go down the list. Now, where happiness was a perk at work, happiness is, uh, now a glue at work, and the question I'm asking is: Are leaders focusing on keeping their people happy? And I don't mean giving them free lunch and putting ping pong tables-

   20. EPEsther Perel11:50

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

   21. SSSimon Sinek11:51

       ... in. I-- when I say happiness, I don't mean, you know, smiles. I mean fulfillment. I mean calm. I mean, uh, inspiration.And now these things are no longer a nice-to-have, which I think a lot of older executives actually still believe.

   22. EPEsther Perel12:05

       Yep.

   23. SSSimon Sinek12:06

       It's a glue, not a perk.

5. 12:08 – 16:42

   From duty to choice: freedom, confusion, and ‘liquid life’

   1. EPEsther Perel12:08

      So I think that as a whole, if you really even step back a second, there's two, two ideas that accompany your question that for me give it really a context. First of all, for most of history, happiness belonged to the afterlife. You know, it was in heaven.

   2. SSSimon Sinek12:25

      [laughs]

   3. EPEsther Perel12:26

      You suffered well on Earth, and if you did a good job, you could be rewarded later, right? Then it comes down, we bring happiness from the heavens to s- to the Earth. It becomes an option, and now-

   4. SSSimon Sinek12:38

      Yeah

   5. EPEsther Perel12:38

      ... it becomes a mandate.

   6. SSSimon Sinek12:39

      Yeah.

   7. EPEsther Perel12:40

      I deserve to be happy. I'm entitled, you know? And in that, in the name of that, a number of major changes occur, and I think one of the most important shift that takes place in relationships, and that connects with your executive, is that, again, for most of history, and still in most parts of the world today, relationships are organized around duty, obligation, loyalty, structure. You know that you're happy when you're able to fulfill your duties, when you've been able to fulfill the roles that's expected of you as a father, as a son, as a boss, you know, and that is what produces the happiness, is the ability to fulfill those tasks. And you have a lot of clarity. You have very little freedom, if any, and very little personal expression. Who cares? We switch that to a model where relationships become organized around choice and option, and you have more freedom than you've ever had, and you are more alone and more confused than you've ever been because all these decisions now rest on you rather than being passed on through the structures of culture and religion and community. And that is underneath the sentences that the, the executives will say today about the younger generations, about, you know, people talk about wanting belonging, purpose, meaning, community, but, you know, your, your example of the person who moves every year, how can you have belonging on a rotation of one year or even two?

   8. SSSimon Sinek14:14

      Yeah.

   9. EPEsther Perel14:14

      How can you have belonging when it, the, the notion is that if you leave, you really are a winner? [chuckles]

   10. SSSimon Sinek14:19

       Right.

   11. EPEsther Perel14:19

       Because you actually have ambitions, you know, that the people who stay, you know, are the people who don't have enough oomph. [scoffs]

   12. SSSimon Sinek14:28

       Do you see that in relationships as well? Do you see relationships becoming more disposable amongst younger generations, where I'm gonna keep moving relationships like I keep moving jobs to find the thing that's better and better and will finally make me happy, but to your point, it's a, it's a, it's a fool's errand?

   13. EPEsther Perel14:44

       I think I see different things. I see this, people who-- I mean, this is a question people are asking me all the time. Do we throw, you know, do we abandon the, the project too soon?

   14. SSSimon Sinek14:54

       Yeah.

   15. EPEsther Perel14:55

       Um, I don't know that I can answer it because I also think that so many people have had to tolerate-

   16. SSSimon Sinek15:01

       Yeah

   17. EPEsther Perel15:01

       ... circumstances of life that really, you know, I, I will put it that sometimes the people who need to leave stay too long, and the people who l- who stay too long sh- [chuckles] you know-

   18. SSSimon Sinek15:11

       Need to leave, yeah

   19. EPEsther Perel15:12

       ... it, it's not a, a flat statement. It's that there are people who probably would do better by being a little bit more patient and enduring.

   20. SSSimon Sinek15:20

       Yeah.

   21. EPEsther Perel15:20

       And there are people who would do better by being a little bit more self-serving.

   22. SSSimon Sinek15:24

       Yeah.

   23. EPEsther Perel15:24

       That's a probably a more nuanced answer to your question. But what I do see is a, a, a proliferation of creations of new types of bonding, new definitions of what is a circle of care, new micro-communities, new families of choice, new multiple p- co-parenting arrangements, and that I find is very creative. Whereas for a long time, the family system was actually not one that dealt, that received much innovation, you know? It kind of followed a certain track all along, and now there is really a zeal of creativity around what are other ways to make family, to make coupledom, to make intimacy? And in that sense, there are people who then may say, "I need to move on." So we live what Zygmunt Bauman used to call liquid life.

   24. SSSimon Sinek16:17

       Yeah.

   25. EPEsther Perel16:18

       We went from relationships that were tight knots, from which-

   26. SSSimon Sinek16:21

       Yeah

   27. EPEsther Perel16:21

       ... you couldn't extricate yourself, to relationships that are loose threads, where you can go in and out very fluidly. And as a result, you can feel very free and also very disposable and very invisible and very easily ghosted.

   28. SSSimon Sinek16:40

       So-

   29. EPEsther Perel16:41

       Does that make sense?

6. 16:42 – 21:08

   Social atrophy: what we lost when play and public life disappeared

   1. SSSimon Sinek16:42

      It does make sense, and again, my understanding from what I've read, I'd love for you to, you know, confirm this or not, which is y-y, you know, younger people are dating less. They're having sex later. Uh, they're l- they're, you know, Scott Galloway talks about this. There's a lot less experience, and even the relationships they're having, you know, um, are not necessarily, they're not necessarily engaging in, in long-term relationships as quickly. Uh, A, is that true, and B, why?

   2. EPEsther Perel17:18

      I think that, um, wherever we go, having just spent, uh, uh, quite a few weeks working abroad, we're hearing the same litany, even from Brazil.

   3. SSSimon Sinek17:29

      Yeah.

   4. EPEsther Perel17:30

      All the way-- I went from country to country hearing the same conversation. Um, I think that, and the conversation is about, uh, uh, a, an increasing social atrophy. That's how I call it. It, it, it involves the loneliness, but it's more than that. It's also self-imposed isolation as, as some people talk about. It's also a kind of a contactless living. It's y- it's I don't need to leave my house, neither to work, neither to exercise, neither to shop for food. I mean, I can just stay home. In every country, I ask this question that has become really quite significant to me. Actually, I ask two. One relates to what you said before.

   5. SSSimon Sinek18:13

      Yeah.

   6. EPEsther Perel18:13

      "How many of you have grandparents who lived and worked in the same place their whole life?"The majority.

   7. SSSimon Sinek18:20

      Right.

   8. EPEsther Perel18:20

      How many of you have parents? Hmm, they already moved. How many of you have changed jobs more than once in the last five years?

   9. SSSimon Sinek18:28

      Yeah.

   10. EPEsther Perel18:30

       And then you begin to see this notion of, of fluidity. But the other question I ask is, how many of you grew up playing freely on the street? And the vast majority of an audience of thousands raised their hands, they grew up playing freely on the street. And how many of you know children or have children that are playing freely on the street today? And you get a sprinkle.

   11. SSSimon Sinek18:53

       Yeah.

   12. EPEsther Perel18:53

       And I find that such an amazing... I see it visually. It's like, you know, when you d- draw a chart, this is a vis- a human chart in front of you. The loss of the primary ground of social negotiation that we used to grow up with.

   13. SSSimon Sinek19:09

       Yeah.

   14. EPEsther Perel19:09

       Where you met all kinds of p- kids, where you negotiate, where you make war, where you make peace-

   15. SSSimon Sinek19:15

       Yeah

   16. EPEsther Perel19:15

       ... where you create alliances, where you make [chuckles]

   17. SSSimon Sinek19:18

       Yeah

   18. EPEsther Perel19:18

       ... you know, where you have repair. All of this specific place where you hone your chops of sociability-

   19. SSSimon Sinek19:26

       Yeah

   20. EPEsther Perel19:27

       ... gone. And I think that that has a major effect.

   21. SSSimon Sinek19:31

       You know, I, I, I, w- as you were saying this, my mind immediately went to a nature documentary where you watch lion cubs and they, they fight with each other, and the mom lets them fight with each other and slap each other around.

   22. EPEsther Perel19:43

       [laughs]

   23. SSSimon Sinek19:44

       And what they're doing is they're learning to hunt.

   24. EPEsther Perel19:46

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SSSimon Sinek19:46

       They're learning to hunt as, as cubs fighting. And the question, you know, and it raises the question, we're mammals. We're supposed to learn all the things that we need to survive as a species when we're younger.

   26. EPEsther Perel20:01

       Yep.

   27. SSSimon Sinek20:02

       And to your point, on the playground, we had war, we had peace, we had fights, we had negotiations, we had heartbreak, we had anger, we had success, and there, it was all a safe microcosm-

   28. EPEsther Perel20:12

       Through play

   29. SSSimon Sinek20:13

       ... of life.

   30. EPEsther Perel20:13

       By the way, and all-- this is the mammal stories, that we all learn this stuff through play.
7. 21:08 – 23:39

   Why the workplace now needs relationship skills (and why AI won’t fix it)

   1. EPEsther Perel21:08

      I totally agree. I mean, you were asking about the workplace. I-- people sometimes ask me, "How did you get to be involved in the workplace? You're this couples therapist, you're this family th..." And I'm like, "I didn't change." I mean-

   2. SSSimon Sinek21:20

      Yeah

   3. EPEsther Perel21:20

      ... but work understood that relationships are no longer just soft skills.

   4. SSSimon Sinek21:26

      Yeah.

   5. EPEsther Perel21:26

      You know? And, and forever, soft skills meant that they're not part of the promotion, they're not part of the evaluation. You don't get anything for being a good mediator, a good negotiator, a good peacemaker on your team. None. This is not what cons- are considered useful skills. It's, you know, relational skills used to be feminine skills.

   6. SSSimon Sinek21:45

      Yes.

   7. EPEsther Perel21:46

      Nice, nice to have. Idealized in principle and disregarded in reality. [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek21:51

      Yeah.

   9. EPEsther Perel21:51

      This is like, now I think that the workplace actually, interestingly, because of AI, is understand-- and because of tech in general, you know, that this is actually the cutting edge. This is the competitive edge.

   10. SSSimon Sinek22:06

       Yeah.

   11. EPEsther Perel22:06

       This is the stuff that people need a tremendous amount of help with. My hope is that people not only go to AI to ask how to write an apology letter, because you can get a very nice apology letter these days and have no idea if the person experienced an ounce of remorse to begin with.

   12. SSSimon Sinek22:24

       Yeah. Yeah. [both laughing] It's not the letter, it's the a- it's the accountability.

   13. EPEsther Perel22:30

       Of course. [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek22:31

       It's-- and, and, and this is where I think, um, most people don't realize that s- since you and I met, one of the reasons we get along so well is you and I are not talking about, um, uh, romantic relationships, and you and I are not talking about work. You and I are talking about human beings in every s- in every sense.

   15. EPEsther Perel22:49

       You know that you helped me actually formulate what became my, the primary, um, credo of my entire w- body of work. I remember this, when we, very early on, you did with me a what, uh, you know, a what's what. [laughs] Whether-

   16. SSSimon Sinek23:06

       A why discovery?

   17. EPEsther Perel23:08

       Yes. And we were in a basement.

   18. SSSimon Sinek23:10

       You can call it a what's what.

   19. EPEsther Perel23:10

       I mean, my, Jack just reminded me this, and m- at, you said, "What is it you are doing?" Like, "What is behind-- Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?" And I blurted out, "Because it is the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives."

   20. SSSimon Sinek23:26

       Amen.

   21. EPEsther Perel23:27

       And you looked at me, and I thought, "I finally said it in one sentence."

   22. SSSimon Sinek23:32

       That's it.

   23. EPEsther Perel23:32

       And this was with you, but I forgot who it was with today. [laughs]

   24. SSSimon Sinek23:36

       Well, I'll take all the credit. Thank you very much. The, yeah-

   25. EPEsther Perel23:39

       I give it back to you

8. 23:39 – 30:20

   Relationships are biological: health, longevity, and social support systems

   1. SSSimon Sinek23:39

      ... I mean, I think that's wh- and, and this is why you and I, like you happen to have come up through, um, uh, psychology and, and, and couples counseling, and I happen to come through the corporate world. But fundamentally, you and I meet in the middle, where we f- we both believe that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. I'll tell you a quick funny story. So I did a, I did, um, something called a glycan age recently, where they basically take blood and they, I can't remember exactly what they do, but they look at, they look at inflammation in the body.

   2. EPEsther Perel24:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SSSimon Sinek24:08

      They're looking at the cell coding, and they can tell the inflammation. And, you know, inflammation is this insidious thing inside us that if you have it, it is a, is a precursor to all kinds of health problems later in life.And so if you have less inflammation, you're, you know, what they call a glycan age. You're younger than your, than your chronological age. And what they were-- what they're telling me is that if you're eight years younger, if your glycan age is eight years younger than your chronological age, they consider that very healthy. I found out that I'm 22 years younger than my chronical- chronological age, and they go through my lifestyle and everything. Now, I exercise, not obsessively. Sometimes I don't exercise at all for quite a while. You know, I eat well mostly, but, you know, not great. I talk to one of the counselors, and they go through all of the markers with me. But fundamentally, I wanna be happy and I wanna spend time with my friends. And those things that I do things for the f- I wanna have fun when I do things, and I wanna spend a lot of time with my friends, it reduces stress. And you look at the, you look at-

   4. EPEsther Perel25:09

      Absolutely

   5. SSSimon Sinek25:09

      ... the health-obsessed people, like the longevity-obsessed people, they're putting themselves through such extreme stress by freaking out about the metrics every day and, a- a- and, and they're, they're doing cold plunges and a hard workout and intermitting fa- intermittent fasting, which all of those things are healthy by themselves, but when you start stacking the stress-

   6. EPEsther Perel25:28

      Hmm

   7. SSSimon Sinek25:28

      ... it actually makes-- it actually creates inflammation and actually reduces lifespan. I learned that elite athletes actually don't live long.

   8. EPEsther Perel25:37

      Hmm.

   9. SSSimon Sinek25:38

      And so basically, when we say, when you say the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life, that is biologically true more-

   10. EPEsther Perel25:48

       Yes

   11. SSSimon Sinek25:49

       ... than just what you eat, how much exercise you do, and whether you do intermittent fasting or not.

   12. EPEsther Perel25:53

       I, I mean, you know, first you're describing what the Harvard Longitudinal Study on Men, by the way, that has been going on for decades. It's absolutely clear that relationships and meaningful relationships is the number one-

   13. SSSimon Sinek26:10

       Yeah

   14. EPEsther Perel26:11

       ... bar none for happiness. That doesn't necessarily mean that you live longer, but you live-

   15. SSSimon Sinek26:15

       Right

   16. EPEsther Perel26:15

       ... better. [chuckles]

   17. SSSimon Sinek26:16

       I wanna live, I wanna live a long, happy life-

   18. EPEsther Perel26:18

       Yes

   19. SSSimon Sinek26:18

       ... not just a long life.

   20. EPEsther Perel26:19

       What we know is that all people who arrive at a certain age, as one of the great physicians said to me, "I have yet to meet a man in his 90s who is alive alone."

   21. SSSimon Sinek26:31

       Oh, so good. I-

   22. EPEsther Perel26:33

       Everybody who is there a long time is there because they have somebody right next to them.

   23. SSSimon Sinek26:39

       Yes.

   24. EPEsther Perel26:39

       Doesn't have to be a, a spouse, but there are people right next to them that say, "Oh, it looks like you're limping a bit. Oh, you don't seem to be hearing me as well. Oh, have you considered g- you know, getting eye surgery?" Whatever. People look at you and are saying, "I see you. How are you doing?" You know, the, they know, for example, apropos relationships and health, that the, the growth of the LATS, the living apart together, you know, the, the, the fastest growing configuration of couples in America today, is actually correlated with the decline in health, especially in men, who often don't pay attention to this, and so who they-- male partners or female partners.

   25. SSSimon Sinek27:22

       Yeah.

   26. EPEsther Perel27:22

       But it means in partnership, somebody says, "Should go see a doctor."

   27. SSSimon Sinek27:26

       E- e- even, even Dan Buettner's work, you know, "The Blue Zones," which is wonderful work, and he's, he's fantastic. You know, a lot of-- And he does talk about it, but a lot of the people that what they take from his work is walk every day, drink olive oil, eat vegetables. And they completely ignore the fact that these blue zones, that they live in commune, they live together, they eat together, they work together, they do things together, they walk together. And to your point, they're like, "You're limping. You're not listening to me." And, and they, they, they know how to have effective confrontation. They know how to resolve. They, all those human skills that we talk about that should be learned in the playground, they learn them and they're using them into their old age. You're 100% -

   28. EPEsther Perel28:06

       Isn't it amazing that we need to be reminded of this, that we are social beings, that we are mammals, that we survive by the connection we have to others, that we are born to connect with people? Uh, I'll give you an, a, a little anecdote. I don't think anecdotes de- describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting. Um, I-- my younger son was in kindergarten. He had a very c- best friend. I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend. N- no. I went to the principal. I said, "Why did you separate them? They were getting so along. It was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from, from age six." She said, "They need to learn to make new friends each time." I said, "He's not being trained for mobility. He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships. It's not the same." And it was really cl- that was the idea. The idea is not how do you continue a long-standing friendship. It's how do you make new friends all the time? [chuckles] I thought that was just-

   29. SSSimon Sinek29:06

       Oh, it's, so, so-

   30. EPEsther Perel29:07

       ... an amazing cultural encounter.
9. 30:20 – 33:50

   Two CVs at work: your job resume and your relationship history

   1. EPEsther Perel30:20

      I think that you have two things happening right now. One-... is that we all understand that people come to work with two CVs. They have two resumes.

   2. SSSimon Sinek30:30

      Yeah.

   3. EPEsther Perel30:30

      They have their work resume, and they have their relationship history. Everybody comes to work with a relationship CV, in which that determines your relationship to authority, to power, to powerlessness, to boundaries, to boundaryless, to communication, to conflict, to in- to implosion, to explosion. Every aspect of relationship takes place in the workplace, and it has a resonance to the early relationships that where we learn things, family, community, cultural. In addition to that, you have now a whole generation that is basically learning to live with predictive technologies, and these predictive technologies who tell you where to go, what to eat, what to watch, you know, are giving you specific answers to every question that you have, erasing all complexity, erasing nuance, erasing the idea that in the realm of life, many problems are not problems that you solve, but paradoxes that you learn to manage.

   4. SSSimon Sinek31:32

      Mm.

   5. EPEsther Perel31:32

      And so these people have learned, have transposed their expectations of how the apps respond to them to how people should respond to them.

   6. SSSimon Sinek31:43

      Mm-hmm. Mm.

   7. EPEsther Perel31:43

      They want the same kind of smooth, frictionless, polished perfection, and when there is an obstacle or a frustration or a conflict, they are often stumped, and they don't know what to do. And that entire thing is now entering the workplace, especially places that are tech-oriented, where this is constantly on a reinforcement, on a daily b- on a, with a daily doses.

   8. SSSimon Sinek32:09

      This is what most people, I mean, I think they appreciate now in this conversation, you know, uh, which is you and I both have our own brand of Trojan horse.

   9. EPEsther Perel32:17

      [chuckles]

   10. SSSimon Sinek32:18

       Which is, you know, which is you, you fundamentally believe that if you can teach people to resolve conflict and learn these human skills in their relationships, it'll fundamentally benefit everything that happens at work and all the relationships at work. And my Trojan horse is if I can teach people the human skills of conflict resolution and asking for help at work, it'll fundamentally improve their relationships and friendships outside of work. Because at the end of the day, what you and I peddle in is human relationships.

   11. EPEsther Perel32:41

       That's correct.

   12. SSSimon Sinek32:41

       It actually is irrelevant whether they're personal relationships or work relationships, they're relationships.

   13. EPEsther Perel32:47

       Correct.

   14. SSSimon Sinek32:47

       And, and the reason your, your friends love you is the same reason your clients and colleagues love you. It's because it's you, and if one of those places you act differently, then in one of those places you're lying. And, and the goal is to... It-- and again, I'm agnostic as to where somebody learns the skills. I don't care if they learn them in couples therapy, and I don't care if they learn them in a, in a-

   15. EPEsther Perel33:08

       Yep

   16. SSSimon Sinek33:08

       ... in a, in a listening class that their office gives them. I don't care. Just learn the damn skills somewhere, please.

   17. EPEsther Perel33:15

       So I think that-

   18. SSSimon Sinek33:16

       For the benefit of all your human relationships, and as we're learning, it's the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives and, you know, you know, our work lives. It, it, it's-- this is all, these are all modern constructions that we're talking about, the way that the relationship exists, the way that the work life exists. But fundamentally, since the dawn of humankind, it's human beings who have to cooperate with other human beings in order to survive and thrive as a species.

   19. EPEsther Perel33:39

       Correct.

   20. SSSimon Sinek33:40

       The rest of the stuff is just, is just, is just, uh-

   21. EPEsther Perel33:42

       Is the context. It's the specific context, and that matters, and it shapes things, but the fundamental dimension is universal.

10. 33:50 – 44:31

    Rethinking ‘what’s wrong with you?’: friendship, love, and belonging vs fitting in

    1. SSSimon Sinek33:50

       So, so, um, you know, we haven't talked in a while, and you and I, because we're friends, um, we've both cheated, uh, in our lives. Um, meaning, I should probably elaborate. [both laughing]

    2. EPEsther Perel34:04

       I'm watch- I'm wait- no, no, no. I'm like, "Where is he going?"

    3. SSSimon Sinek34:07

       Where is he going with this? Exactly. Nobody knows. Um, uh, w- what I mean is, um, just as you said that I helped you with articulate the meaning of your work, so too when you and I would go out for dinner, you know, I'd get free relationship counseling. You know? And, and you and I would-- 'cause you and I are genuinely interested in each other's work and in our own work, and so, you know, we, we, we open up to each other. It gets q- our relat- our, um, conversations would be quite personal. And so I haven't talked to you in a while, so I, I need to give you an update. [laughs] So what better place to give you an update than on a public broadcast? I had a huge, profound shift in my thinking about my own relationships that I hope, I think, will make you proud, which is I've, you know, I haven't had many long-term relationships in my life, and I'm, uh, uh, never been married. And in my dating life, v- very often, especially on a first date, um, a woman will say to me, "What's wrong with you?" 'Cause they'll start quizzing me. "What's your longest relationship?" You know, they're, they're quizzing me. They're going through whether I, I'm capable. [chuckles] You know? And, and I, when I'm honest, and then they literally, they say, "Well, how come you haven't been married?" Or, "What's wrong with you?" Or, "Are you relationship-phobic or are you commitment-phobic?" And, you know, it didn't sound right, but the empirical evidence would demonstrate that maybe I am, and I started to believe the evidence even though it didn't feel right to me, and it caused me great insecurity. And, um, and then I started to realize when somebody says, "How come you haven't been married yet?" The answer was obvious: I haven't met the right person yet. Um, but more important than that, more important than that was, is, is that I've recognized that I have focused on friendships, and I have a very fulfilled and happy life, and I get a lot of what other people get from relationships, I get from very, very deep and meaningful friendships. And I have a friend, she, she was in a 16-year relationship, and she will freely admit that she should have been in that relationship for one year. It was very unhealthy, very toxic, and mostly unhappy. And she says, "I should have been in the relationship for one year," but she stayed in it for 16 years, and society looks at her and says she did it right.That is correct. And society looks at me, where I didn't have one monogamous relationship, and they say, "Something's wrong with you." And I've, I've exorcized those demons, and I've recognized that so long as I am in happy, healthy, fulfilling relationships, the exact dynamics, whether it fits society's definition of what I should or shouldn't be doing, is irrelevant. Are-- Am I happy? Do people love me? Do I love people? Do I feel that I can go to someone and say, "I'm struck..." Is there someone to say, "You're limping. Go to the doctor. There's something in your teeth"? Do I have those friends-

    4. EPEsther Perel37:01

       Mm-hmm

    5. SSSimon Sinek37:01

       ... that are unafraid? And I think we, especially in this modern context-

    6. EPEsther Perel37:08

       We over-indexed

    7. SSSimon Sinek37:08

       ... where the definition of relationships have changed so much, to your point, which is whether we're in these long-term, healthy, monogamous relationships has become yet another stressor in our lives.

    8. EPEsther Perel37:19

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SSSimon Sinek37:20

       And the question is, are you in happy relationships? Whether they're work relationships or romantic relationships or fri... Do you have successful relationships that you know how to manage and they, and they too have the skills of, of having... And I've recognized, whether it's just me 'cause I'm a weirdo, maybe it's society, but I'm much more at peace with the fact that there's nothing wrong with me.

    10. EPEsther Perel37:44

        So I'm gonna, uh, if you allow me, I, I, I would, uh... The personal one we'll do at dinner, but the broader one I think is a very, uh, relevant question, which is kind of what I was addressing earlier when I said there is a proliferation of new emphasis, new creations of, of social bonds, new definitions of what is family, what is a family of choice, what is a circle of care, and I think that what you're describing among your friends is that.

    11. SSSimon Sinek38:15

        Yeah.

    12. EPEsther Perel38:15

        What you're saying is, if I understand it well, is that we have over-indexed on the romantic partnership as it being the one and only, the be-all, the central one, the one that everybody needs to have one and fulfill. Um, and it also happens to be a model in which one person has to be able to provide you what an entire village used to provide.

    13. SSSimon Sinek38:41

        Yeah.

    14. EPEsther Perel38:41

        And that means that you have to experience with the same person the sense of belonging, apropos what we described about work. A b- a sense of belonging, of continuity, of safety, of predictability, and also of adventure and of novelty and of playfulness and risk.

    15. SSSimon Sinek38:57

        Yeah.

    16. EPEsther Perel38:57

        All of this in one relationship. I think there are three models, actually, in, uh, that sense. There is a relationship model that is romantic and intimate in which people do experience the joy from the relationship itself. Then there are people, maybe this woman that you describe, for whom marriage or committed intimate relationships or remade relationships are scaffolding. They basically provide a structure that enables you to go elsewhere and find different sources of meaning, activities, shared interests, purpose-

    17. SSSimon Sinek39:35

        Mm-hmm

    18. EPEsther Perel39:35

        ... you name it.

    19. SSSimon Sinek39:36

        Mm-hmm.

    20. EPEsther Perel39:37

        Desire, you know. But basically friends, be-

    21. SSSimon Sinek39:41

        Yeah

    22. EPEsther Perel39:41

        ... because people find that if they are in the structure of a couple, they are, they have fulfilled the norm and it enables them to go and make friendship and things like that outside. And then there are people who basically are blessed with multiple friendships and multiple binds and bonds and connections, and they don't necessarily see the intimate relationship as the primary relationship to be in. And you are right, they are often ex- seen from a normative point of view as the ones who didn't fulfill, you know, what's expected, the code of conduct.

    23. SSSimon Sinek40:18

        Yeah.

    24. EPEsther Perel40:18

        When in fact, not everybody finds the best of themselves in an intimate romantic relationship. Some people are way better as managers, as mentors, as friends, as teachers-

    25. SSSimon Sinek40:32

        I, I-

    26. EPEsther Perel40:32

        ... than they are as life partners.

    27. SSSimon Sinek40:35

        It's really for me about stress, which is I love being in a relationship. I love having a, a romantic partner and a, and a life partner. I really love being in a relationship. And, uh, in my last relationship-

    28. EPEsther Perel40:46

        But that's why I answered it less personally, Simon.

    29. SSSimon Sinek40:48

        Yeah. And I, and I want, and I want another one.

    30. EPEsther Perel40:50

        Yeah, but you don't wanna be made to feel like there is something wrong with you.
11. 44:31 – 45:53

    Workplace intimacy vocabulary and Esther’s ‘Where Should We Begin? At Work’ approach

    1. EPEsther Perel44:31

       You know? I, I got interested, you know-- I mean, I've, I've written and spoken about this for decades on, on the personal front, but I got very interested in it in the workspace because when I-- as we s- when we began, I said there is a kind of a dual revolution-

    2. SSSimon Sinek44:48

       Yeah, yeah

    3. EPEsther Perel44:48

       ... happening at once. The business terms have entered the romantic and the intimate relationships, but the psychology and the language of intimate relationships has entered the business world.

    4. SSSimon Sinek45:00

       Yeah.

    5. EPEsther Perel45:00

       Authenticity, vulnerability, um, [lip smack] trust, psychological safety. I mean-

    6. SSSimon Sinek45:06

       Yeah

    7. EPEsther Perel45:06

       ... an entire vocabulary has entered the workplace and especially the business world that, you know, in the same breath we talk about psychological safety as we talk about performance indicators. It-- And we totally see the syncretism as, as normal. And so from that place, I thought, "Oh, maybe I can also"-

    8. SSSimon Sinek45:26

       Yeah

    9. EPEsther Perel45:27

       ... "within the workplace address not just our relationship to work, but our relationships at work."

    10. SSSimon Sinek45:33

        Yeah.

    11. EPEsther Perel45:34

        And I started to create the card games, and I started to create s- and e-experiences of interaction when people know that storytelling is the bridge for connection. How do I make people share of themselves in that context? Because now we need as many contexts as we can.

12. 45:53 – 52:34

    Entry-level ‘bloodbath’: why early careers need in-person learning (but not dogma)

    1. SSSimon Sinek45:53

       I, I wonder if the group that's h- at highest risk-

    2. EPEsther Perel45:56

       Is the young people

    3. SSSimon Sinek45:58

       ... uh, but, but not kids in school, because kids y-y- you know, the question is, do they play in the street? Maybe not, but they still play in the playground. They still go to school, and more and more schools are taking the phones away or at least-

    4. EPEsther Perel46:10

       Mm-hmm

    5. SSSimon Sinek46:10

       ... restricting their use. So th- there's still common experience at school, and they still have fights on the playground. Like that's happening.

    6. EPEsther Perel46:15

       The post, the post-high school or the post-college or the post-

    7. SSSimon Sinek46:18

       And I, I, I think the highest risk is college and post and post-college.

    8. EPEsther Perel46:22

       Yeah. So do, do-

    9. SSSimon Sinek46:22

       Where they start to have some independence, and especially post, you know, when they enter the entry-level workforce.

    10. EPEsther Perel46:28

        Entry-level workforce is-

    11. SSSimon Sinek46:29

        I think entry-level workforce, that-

    12. EPEsther Perel46:30

        ... a bloodbath

    13. SSSimon Sinek46:31

        ... that population is the most at risk b- especially with the concept of remote work.

    14. EPEsther Perel46:36

        Yeah.

    15. SSSimon Sinek46:36

        Because if they don't have to come to work-

    16. EPEsther Perel46:38

        If there will be work

    17. SSSimon Sinek46:38

        ... they don't wanna come to work.

    18. EPEsther Perel46:40

        If there will be work for them. It's a job bloodbath coming to them.

    19. SSSimon Sinek46:43

        If, if there will be work for them. And, and the, the idea of like the lion cubs learning the skills they need for, for adulthood, I would argue that that first level workforce, that entry-level workforce, that, you know... Entry level sucks. You know, you have to be good at everything. You, you... It's not about your unique talents.

    20. EPEsther Perel47:02

        You think you have to be good at everything.

    21. SSSimon Sinek47:03

        You have to think you have to be good at everything. But-- And you, and you have to-- And you're, you're asked to do things you... Like I-- My-- When I was entry level, they wanted me to be very organized. [chuckles] That's hilarious. But I had, I had to do it. And it's the stresses and strains and the-- And I had to learn who are my friends and who are my enemies, 'cause there were people who would stab me in the back for their promotion. And s- and, and I-- and you can't just stab them back. You have to like learn to navigate. But it happened, the playground, the street was the office, and the politics and the s- and the, and the egos and the insecurities, mine and theirs, and the ambitions, and all of this came into the, the pot that was the office space. And I, I fear that, that because it feels nice not to come to work and it feels nice to have all that freedom, that, that, as you described, the liquidity, the, the liquid work-life balance, that there's so-- that the rigidity and the structure, even to the point where of- companies are saying, "We'd like you to come back to work, and it's not just for us, it's also for you," there's such a harsh pushback i- amongst particularly, I think, younger populations, because it feels nice not to come in. But the question is, is it good for you? When I've spoken about this, you know, the, the, the comments in the sections are like, "You're just saying that because you're an exploitive employer," and all of this stuff. A- and I, I really am thinking about those lion cubs. I'm really thinking about the time, you know, 'cause you can't-- When you're senior and you screw something up, it can be really bad. When you're a junior, you're, you're not gonna bring the company down. I am who I am today in large part because I was really lucky to have a really shitty boss when I started my career, and then I, then I got a really good boss, and I learned how not to do things and how to do things that had significant molding and influence.

    22. EPEsther Perel48:49

        One of my favorite cards is actually, "I still remember the manager who-"And what you hear is often either the best manager, the one that I adored, that I, that trained me, that believed in me, da, da, da, da, that I want to emulate. Either it's the manager like the boss that you're talking about, that the, the, the shitty manager who, who really made me sweat and, but, and who I pro- I learned from that person what never to do. It's an amazing reveal- revelatory card.

    23. SSSimon Sinek49:19

        Yeah.

    24. EPEsther Perel49:19

        Now, I also like the piece of feedback I used to, I would, I wish I had received sooner. That too, because it goes back to your beginnings-

    25. SSSimon Sinek49:27

        Yeah

    26. EPEsther Perel49:27

        ... and what people did and did not tell you. I think instead of polarizing between remote work and physically present at work, the question for me at this moment, I don't want to engage with that conversation-

    27. SSSimon Sinek49:43

        Yeah

    28. EPEsther Perel49:43

        ... the way where people can then be invited to, you know... I, I combine, I do my podcast-

    29. SSSimon Sinek49:50

        Yeah

    30. EPEsther Perel49:51

        ... online. It is a technology where people can listen live to sessions. I also see patients in person. I see patients on a walk. I see patients on a screen. I try to alternate it, and I try to teach my students to not do their entire work on the screen.
13. 52:34 – 56:19

    Play as engagement and risk-taking: the mindset that builds trust and culture

    1. EPEsther Perel52:34

       And, and flexibility, but also I think that in person and then what? So I say-

    2. SSSimon Sinek52:41

       Yes

    3. EPEsther Perel52:41

       ... when I bring people in person-

    4. SSSimon Sinek52:42

       In person, then what?

    5. EPEsther Perel52:43

       ... I want to create connections that are fun-

    6. SSSimon Sinek52:48

       Yes

    7. EPEsther Perel52:48

       ... meaningful, elicit the desire for more. So, you know-

    8. SSSimon Sinek52:53

       Right

    9. EPEsther Perel52:53

       ... any t- any activity is good. I happen to do it with storytelling 'cause I think that we are storytellers and relationships are stories. I think that one of our biggest challenges is how do you deal in relationships with the fact that somebody has a completely different story about the same relationship as you?

    10. SSSimon Sinek53:10

        Yeah.

    11. EPEsther Perel53:10

        And that, that's where a lot of conflict comes in. "That's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened because my brain is more accurate than yours," you know?

    12. SSSimon Sinek53:18

        [laughs] Oh, that's worth repeating 'cause it's just so funny and so true. "That's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened."

    13. EPEsther Perel53:24

        Yes.

    14. SSSimon Sinek53:24

        Oh my God. We've all done it. We've definitely all thought.

    15. EPEsther Perel53:27

        Of course, I know. [laughs] You know, m- my brain works, yours doesn't. And I do it, you know, with the courses, I do it with the podcast, I do it with the card game. But it, the, the concept behind it is how do I help people who don't go out enough and don't speak enough in serendipitous, impromptu situations know what to say, ask questions, learn to listen, learn to tell stories about themselves, realize what it means to be revealing of oneself within limits in the workplace? And I think one of the things that the lions did is play.

    16. SSSimon Sinek54:06

        Yeah.

    17. EPEsther Perel54:06

        So a card game is play. I wanted to use play to exper- to create these meaningful connections, which I know for fact improve the relationship culture in the workplace, which therefore, for fact, improves performance in the workplace.

    18. SSSimon Sinek54:22

        Yeah. I, I, I mean, I think you said it best, and I think it's a nice place to, it's a nice button for us to, to conclude, which is, which is play doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a game of, of foosball or ping pong or something. Play is just, is, is bringing some sort of lighthearted interaction. When you and I go out for dinner, you and I can have sometimes very intense conversations. We disagree sometimes. Sometimes we pick at each other.

    19. EPEsther Perel54:47

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    20. SSSimon Sinek54:47

        And at the end of every time we get together, at the end of every dinner-

    21. EPEsther Perel54:51

        I had such a nice time

    22. SSSimon Sinek54:53

        ... we both leave and say, "I had such, so much fun. I had such a good time." And, and I think because this is what play means.

    23. EPEsther Perel54:56

        You know what is play is when, when risk, when, when risk is fun.And what you described was a concern about comfort and discomfort.

    24. SSSimon Sinek55:06

        Yeah.

    25. EPEsther Perel55:07

        I am less on the spending side, making sure people are not uncomfortable and all of that.

    26. SSSimon Sinek55:12

        Yeah.

    27. EPEsther Perel55:13

        I spend more time at this moment helping people take risks because-

    28. SSSimon Sinek55:17

        Yeah

    29. EPEsther Perel55:17

        ... you know, we tend to say that only when you trust can you take risks, but it is also true that when you can take risks, it increases your ability to trust.

    30. SSSimon Sinek55:26

        Yeah.
14. 56:19 – 1:02:30

    Practical skills: talk to strangers, create third-space time, and use voice to reduce misreads

    1. SSSimon Sinek56:19

       What's the number one relationship skill Gen Z should master before starting their first job?

    2. EPEsther Perel56:27

       Talk to strangers.

    3. SSSimon Sinek56:30

       Ooh, say more. Didn't expect that one.

    4. EPEsther Perel56:33

       I mean, when you spend all your time like this, you don't notice who's around you. You don't talk to people on a plane. You don't talk to people in a queue. You don't talk to people while you're waiting for your coffee. I mean, you don't talk to strangers.

    5. SSSimon Sinek56:46

       Right.

    6. EPEsther Perel56:47

       And talking to strangers is improvisation, spontaneity, serendipity, surprise, novelty, you know, an active engagement with the unknown, uh, which is actually one of the definitions that Rachel Botsman gives to s- what is trust. Trust is an active engagement with the unknown. If you don't know to talk to strangers, you have less trust. And you-

    7. SSSimon Sinek57:09

       Sure

    8. EPEsther Perel57:09

       ... entering the workplace is talking to strangers. If you just came out of whatever school you've done or not done, and done any other preparation, but any first job is a series of conversations with strangers without knowing what they really want from you, without knowing how they look at you, without understanding the codes. You know, you've just been 12 years in school, you kind of figured out what's, what's the deal, what are the social norms.

    9. SSSimon Sinek57:34

       Yeah.

    10. EPEsther Perel57:34

        Find yourself in any job, any kind of job, instead you're looking around, it's like moving to a new country.

    11. SSSimon Sinek57:39

        Yeah. Which further, which further, uh, highlights what we were saying about, which is the biggest es-risk, at-risk population is not little kids. It's, it's, it's early, it's, uh, entry-level employees, right out of high school or college.

    12. EPEsther Perel57:51

        Now, I will add, talking to strangers is sometimes a lot of fun and sometimes uncomfortable.

    13. SSSimon Sinek57:58

        Yeah.

    14. EPEsther Perel57:58

        And the discomfort piece is a part of life.

    15. SSSimon Sinek58:01

        Yeah.

    16. EPEsther Perel58:01

        The only way you deal with it is by repeating until it becomes practice. Any skill you will learn at first has an element of discomfort. I think that we've put comfort and discomfort so much in the center of life at this moment because all these apps are supposed to give us frictionless life that is so comfortable, and we bring those very expectations to, to places where that is not the norm. Life is complex and it is all of these other things. So I think talking to strangers, which is a thing that often parents say, "Don't talk to strangers." No, no, no, absolutely talk to strangers. [chuckles]

    17. SSSimon Sinek58:37

        So good. So good. What's one daily habit that leaders can use to stay true to their priorities when work and home demands collide?

    18. EPEsther Perel58:48

        Oh, that's a beautiful one. What is one thing that leaders can be-- when, when they experience the tension between home and work? I think for some people it's 10 minutes of meditation in the morning, 20, whatever. I mean, just quiet by themselves where you have to accomplish nothing. You don't have to meet the needs of home or work.

    19. SSSimon Sinek59:11

        Mm.

    20. EPEsther Perel59:12

        You just have to be in your breath in the moment, you know, in thoughts or without thoughts, depending on the practice of meditation. But I c- the meditation can also be movement. It can be biking, it can be walking, it can be, you know... So it's, it's-

    21. SSSimon Sinek59:27

        It's, it's, it's, it's active disengagement from, from, from the-

    22. EPEsther Perel59:30

        From the responsibility

    23. SSSimon Sinek59:31

        ... from the pattern.

    24. EPEsther Perel59:32

        From the responsibility.

    25. SSSimon Sinek59:33

        Responsibility, yeah.

    26. EPEsther Perel59:33

        You know, it's a, it's a moment where you don't have to ful- you don't have to answer anything, you don't have to solve any problem, you don't have to be accountable. And if it's only five minutes because of the reality of your life, let it be five minutes. But to have a moment that is in a third space-

    27. SSSimon Sinek59:51

        Yeah

    28. EPEsther Perel59:51

        ... away from the obligations, the duties, the responsibility, the accountability of each one-

    29. SSSimon Sinek59:56

        Yeah

    30. EPEsther Perel59:56

        ... and it's how it pinches on you. And the-

Episode duration: 1:02:31