When Pop Fandom Becomes a Force for Good with AJR’s Adam Met | A Bit of Optimism

1. 0:00 – 5:37

   Intro

   1. AMAdam Met0:00

      Two albums ago, we didn't release a track list. Instead, we took our track list, we cut it up into 36 jigsaw puzzle pieces, and shot the jigsaw puzzle pieces out across the internet. Our fans had to work together across the world in order to put together this jigsaw puzzle. They posted it, and that post got more pickup than pretty much anything that we ever posted.

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:22

      And it wasn't even your post, it was their post.

   3. AMAdam Met0:24

      It was their post.

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:25

      That, that-

   5. AMAdam Met0:25

      It gave them ownership over the music-

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:27

      So your fans-

   7. AMAdam Met0:28

      ... over the album

   8. SSSimon Sinek0:28

      ... posted the set list to all the other fans?

   9. AMAdam Met0:30

      Correct.

   10. SSSimon Sinek0:31

       That is beautiful. It's good to be back in New York City. There's something about this place, the rhythm, the chaos, bagels that actually taste the way bagels are supposed to taste, and the chance to hang out with cool New York City kids, like my guest, Adam Met. Then we skip to the good part. Ah. Adam is the A of indie-pop band AJR. Here we go. So put your best face on. Everybody raise their hands. He's also a climate activist, founder of the nonprofit Planet Reimagined, an adjunct professor at Columbia University-

   11. AMAdam Met1:06

       When writing this book

   12. SSSimon Sinek1:07

       ... and the author of bestselling book Amplify

   13. AMAdam Met1:09

       ... people become fans.

   14. SSSimon Sinek1:10

       There's no doubt that Adam is a very busy person. He's also very educated. He has a PhD, after all. But it's the education he got from inside the music industry that's particularly fascinating. More specifically, how he's applying what he's learned from making pop music to develop strategies for effective social and environmental change. It's true, pop music could actually save the world. This is A Bit of Optimism. Did you go to Broadway as a kid?

   15. AMAdam Met1:51

       Yeah, I went to a lot of Broadways as a kid. Yeah. My first Broadway show was Music Man.

   16. SSSimon Sinek1:57

       I don't think I ever saw Music Man.

   17. AMAdam Met1:59

       Oh. But have you seen the movie?

   18. SSSimon Sinek2:01

       No.

   19. AMAdam Met2:01

       Oh. It's worth it. It's absolutely worth it.

   20. SSSimon Sinek2:03

       Is it a musical?

   21. AMAdam Met2:04

       Yes.

   22. SSSimon Sinek2:04

       Mm.

   23. AMAdam Met2:06

       Right, you're not a musical person.

   24. SSSimon Sinek2:08

       Mm.

   25. AMAdam Met2:08

       You're more of a play person?

   26. SSSimon Sinek2:09

       I mean, I, I like them. I mean, I'll-

   27. AMAdam Met2:11

       Mm-hmm

   28. SSSimon Sinek2:11

       ... I have an opinion about musicals, which I'm gonna get people writing in with angry letters, but it's, it's m- more of a business. Broadway is more of a business than anything else. It's kinda like TV news.

   29. AMAdam Met2:24

       It's not a good business.

   30. SSSimon Sinek2:25

       No, but, uh, it's not a good business, but it's a business. It's entertainment-
2. 5:37 – 7:56

   AJR: From Street Performers to Selling Out Madison Square Garden

   1. AMAdam Met5:37

      Well, thank you to your nephew. I really appreciate it.

   2. SSSimon Sinek5:39

      Yeah.

   3. AMAdam Met5:39

      Without him, I would not be here today.

   4. SSSimon Sinek5:41

      That is-

   5. AMAdam Met5:41

      So

   6. SSSimon Sinek5:42

      ... partially true

   7. AMAdam Met5:43

      ... probably, yeah. [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek5:46

      You, I mean, you've played huge arenas, uh, as AJR, in AJR.

   9. AMAdam Met5:49

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SSSimon Sinek5:51

       And yet it is fair to say that your music career may be the least impressive thing about you.

   11. AMAdam Met5:56

       [laughs] Thank you?

   12. SSSimon Sinek5:57

       Yes. You are, you are one of the s- hardest driving, smartest, entrepreneurial sort of do-gooders I've ever met.

   13. AMAdam Met6:07

       Wow.Coming from you, that means so much. I, I really appreciate that.

   14. SSSimon Sinek6:12

       But it's true. How did you... So were you always driven to be a part of having a positive change in the world, or did that come later in life? G- give me a little history on it.

   15. AMAdam Met6:22

       Yeah.

   16. SSSimon Sinek6:22

       I don't... And by the way, I'm asking you questions that I, I, it's not-

   17. AMAdam Met6:25

       Yeah

   18. SSSimon Sinek6:25

       ... I don't know any of the things I'm asking you. [laughs]

   19. AMAdam Met6:26

       Great. Excellent.

   20. SSSimon Sinek6:29

       I'm gonna assume, uh, that you're three musical kids and like-

   21. AMAdam Met6:34

       Mm-hmm

   22. SSSimon Sinek6:34

       ... you, you know, play for all the parents' friends and-

   23. AMAdam Met6:37

       Yeah

   24. SSSimon Sinek6:38

       ... you know, took music lessons and, you know.

   25. AMAdam Met6:40

       Yeah. So our start was we were, because we grew up in New York City, we were street performing in New York City, as one does.

   26. SSSimon Sinek6:47

       Buskers.

   27. AMAdam Met6:48

       Literally.

   28. SSSimon Sinek6:48

       [laughs]

   29. AMAdam Met6:48

       We put out a hat for money. We a- we didn't grow up well off. We all shared one room. So the three of us were living in one room. We had triple bunk beds, and we raised enough money on the street to buy Pro Tools, a computer, to buy a ukulele, to buy, like, the setup to actually make music. And for me, yes, it was about the music, and I loved storytelling, and I loved art, but really, once I think back and reflect on it, the core of it for me, and I'm not speaking for my brothers in this instance, for me it was about, how do you effectively move people? What are the strategies to get people from one place to another? And I'm not saying physically, I'm saying emotionally.

   30. SSSimon Sinek7:27

       Mm-hmm.
3. 7:56 – 9:30

   Music Is the Marketing and the Show Is the Product

   1. SSSimon Sinek7:57

      So one thing I do know about you, which is you, I would argue that you are on the cutting edge of understanding how the music business has changed and what it has become, right?

   2. AMAdam Met8:06

      Yeah.

   3. SSSimon Sinek8:06

      Because there's a lot of artists who complain that they're not getting money from their music, from Spotify-

   4. AMAdam Met8:10

      Yeah

   5. SSSimon Sinek8:10

      ... and the rest of it, and you recognize that, that you can't really make the money from the music anymore. The music is the marketing tool to-

   6. AMAdam Met8:18

      Yeah

   7. SSSimon Sinek8:19

      ... create an experience that people will pay money to come see in a show, which-

   8. AMAdam Met8:23

      Absolutely

   9. SSSimon Sinek8:23

      ... you know, Taylor Swift and others have figured that out, too.

   10. AMAdam Met8:26

       Yeah.

   11. SSSimon Sinek8:26

       When people think of concert, they think pay, buy your ticket, show up at venue-

   12. AMAdam Met8:30

       Mm-hmm

   13. SSSimon Sinek8:31

       ... wait, maybe there's an opening act.

   14. AMAdam Met8:33

       Yep.

   15. SSSimon Sinek8:33

       That's your, like, lucky strike extra. Band performs.

   16. AMAdam Met8:36

       Yeah.

   17. SSSimon Sinek8:36

       Leave, maybe buy merch.

   18. AMAdam Met8:37

       Yep.

   19. SSSimon Sinek8:37

       That's, that's it.

   20. AMAdam Met8:39

       Yeah.

   21. SSSimon Sinek8:39

       That's not what your concerts are.

   22. AMAdam Met8:41

       No. So because-

   23. SSSimon Sinek8:44

       You design them.

   24. AMAdam Met8:45

       Yeah.

   25. SSSimon Sinek8:45

       You make shows.

   26. AMAdam Met8:47

       We do, and I think it has to do with the fact that we did grow up in New York City going to... Oh, we're circling back already.

   27. SSSimon Sinek8:52

       Musicals.

   28. AMAdam Met8:53

       Going to see musicals.

   29. SSSimon Sinek8:56

       Ugh. [laughs]

   30. AMAdam Met8:57

       Um, if you're listening to this and you've ever been to one of our shows, they're very much Broadway shows that we take on the road. We take the album, and as the album is being written, and to be abundantly clear, both of my brothers write the music. So I'm not involved in the writing process of the music. But as they are writing the music, the show is being developed. It's not, let's write the album and put it out, and then we'll build a show around it. It's, let's figure out what the narrative is through the album so we can create this

4. 9:30 – 10:18

   Designing Albums Like Broadway Shows

   1. AMAdam Met9:30

      show.

   2. SSSimon Sinek9:30

      So you think of it right from the... It's all-

   3. AMAdam Met9:32

      Yeah

   4. SSSimon Sinek9:32

      ... conceived of at the same time.

   5. AMAdam Met9:33

      Yep.

   6. SSSimon Sinek9:34

      Which is kind of astonishing.

   7. AMAdam Met9:35

      And there are some songs that are built around what is this gonna sound like and look like on stage-

   8. SSSimon Sinek9:40

      Mm-hmm

   9. AMAdam Met9:40

      ... just as much as what is this gonna sound like when people are listening through their headphones.

   10. SSSimon Sinek9:43

       So it's really, your albums are really the pre-release soundtracks of the show.

   11. AMAdam Met9:47

       That's exactly what it is. And so we have an album called Neo Theater, which, I mean, and a couple of our albums have overtures on them, literally a song called Overture, which takes pieces of all the other songs on the album and does a modern version of an overture and mashes them up. So it's very theatrical.

   12. SSSimon Sinek10:03

       I love that. So okay, so now-

   13. AMAdam Met10:05

       No, do you love that or do you not? [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek10:06

       No, as an, as an, as an artist? That... But it, it, I mean, it is the most customer service, uh, orientation. You're like, "What can we give to the human beings who are gonna be consuming our work?"

5. 10:18 – 11:45

   A Fan-First Philosophy (And Why It Works)

   1. AMAdam Met10:18

      Totally.

   2. SSSimon Sinek10:18

      And how do we make it the most magical experience for them? What if we design the show and the album and all of the merch and the experiences at the same time?

   3. AMAdam Met10:26

      Yeah. A fan-first approach has always been our strategy. Even... So when we first started out, we would always have a $10 ticket available. Even today, we have a 30 or $40 ticket available, even in arenas. We wanna make sure that our shows continue to be accessible to people. But our shows, like I was saying, don't just encompass the music and the storytelling and the live experience. There are all of these ways for fans to participate online, continue to take the show home with them, learn about it before. You look at some of these Discord groups and these Reddit threads, they're, the engagement in there is insane. They're noticing details that we thought nobody would notice. And honestly, Taylor Swift pioneered this, right?

   4. SSSimon Sinek11:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AMAdam Met11:10

      To be able to take something like a fan base and move it to use them for good, which we can talk about in a bit-

   6. SSSimon Sinek11:18

      Mm-hmm

   7. AMAdam Met11:18

      ... but also to play into the games that they like to play, play into that culture. We embed things in our albums, and I'll give you an example.

   8. SSSimon Sinek11:27

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. AMAdam Met11:27

      In one of our albums, in every single song, there was a very small snippet of another song on the album. So people had to go on a hunt through the album itself to try and find the pieces of the other songs.

   10. SSSimon Sinek11:42

       For no other reason than the fun of looking.

   11. AMAdam Met11:44

       The fun, the fun of it.

6. 11:45 – 13:22

   Games, Collaboration, and the Jigsaw Puzzle That Went Viral

   1. AMAdam Met11:45

      Yeah. But it was also-

   2. SSSimon Sinek11:46

      You don't win a prize. It's just the fun.

   3. AMAdam Met11:47

      Yeah, just the fun. It was also... It was like Les Mis. Les Mis has little pieces of other songs playing their way throughout, but then we would do something even more intentional that would have a winner. So when you think about games, when you think about people playing games, generally there are a couple of different strategies, right? One strategy is competition. You put people in competition with each other. There's gonna be a winner and a loser. There's also a world-building game, you know, like Minecraft, where people are just building the worlds. Twenty One Pilots uses this strategy. They build this world with this lore and all of these stories, and it keeps expanding with their albums. We said, "Okay-What if we used a different strategy? Not, uh, competition, not world building. What if we forced our fans to collaborate on something? So we created this experience. Two albums ago, we didn't release a track list. Instead, we took our track list, we cut it up into 36 jigsaw puzzle pieces, and shot the jigsaw puzzle pieces out across the internet. We put one piece on Twitter, one to our email list, one to our text list, one on Discord, Reddit. Over the next three hours, our fans had to work together across the world in order to put together this jigsaw puzzle. They posted it, and that post got more pickup than pretty much anything that we ever posted.

   4. SSSimon Sinek13:03

      And it wasn't even your post, it was their post.

   5. AMAdam Met13:05

      It was their post.

   6. SSSimon Sinek13:06

      That, that-

   7. AMAdam Met13:06

      It gave them ownership over the music-

   8. SSSimon Sinek13:08

      So your fans-

   9. AMAdam Met13:09

      ... over the album

   10. SSSimon Sinek13:09

       ... posted the set list, the, the, the track list to everybo- to all the other fans.

   11. AMAdam Met13:13

       Correct.

   12. SSSimon Sinek13:14

       That is beautiful.

   13. AMAdam Met13:16

       Yeah.

   14. SSSimon Sinek13:16

       And how did you even come up with that?

   15. AMAdam Met13:17

       [laughs]

   16. SSSimon Sinek13:18

       'Cause I'm, by the way, absolutely gonna steal it.

   17. AMAdam Met13:21

       Go for it.

   18. SSSimon Sinek13:21

       It's a genius

7. 13:22 – 17:16

   Turning Fan Engagement Into Movement Building

   1. SSSimon Sinek13:22

      idea.

   2. AMAdam Met13:22

      Please. Oh, when, when I do work in climate and movement building, I take that strategy and work with nonprofits to do the same thing. Because if you think about it, it gives them ownership over the product, over the in- over the idea in a way that you could never do if you were forcing it. That is just a beautiful way of redefining what ownership looks like, and it makes them-

   3. SSSimon Sinek13:42

      Oh

   4. AMAdam Met13:42

      ... you know, really focus on it.

   5. SSSimon Sinek13:43

      That is so inspiring. Okay, so, so now I understand how your brain works.

   6. AMAdam Met13:46

      [laughs]

   7. SSSimon Sinek13:47

      Right? Why not just be a, a pop star for the rest of your life and, you know, travel on the road and do concerts and make music? I mean, that, that's joyful.

   8. AMAdam Met13:55

      Yeah.

   9. SSSimon Sinek13:56

      And you're, and you're giving people a, a better experience than, than a traditional, you know, artist experience. Why the, all of the, all the other stuff? And you don't do one other thing, you do, like, 10 other things. You wrote a book-

   10. AMAdam Met14:10

       Yeah

   11. SSSimon Sinek14:11

       ... you called Amplify, which we'll get into-

   12. AMAdam Met14:12

       Yeah

   13. SSSimon Sinek14:12

       ... because I'm curious.

   14. AMAdam Met14:14

       So why am I unsatisfied? Um, it might be my Jewish genealogy [laughs]

   15. SSSimon Sinek14:20

       [laughs]

   16. AMAdam Met14:20

       As being perpetually unsatisfied. But really, when we were kids, we had one goal with the band, which was to sell out Madison Square Garden. That was the goal. And a year and three months ago, we sold out two back-to-back nights at Madison Square Garden.

   17. SSSimon Sinek14:39

       Amazing.

   18. AMAdam Met14:40

       And when you achieve something that you've been working on for so long-

   19. SSSimon Sinek14:45

       A finite goal, yeah

   20. AMAdam Met14:46

       ... yeah, of course there's more to do. We could go and sell out stadiums.

   21. SSSimon Sinek14:51

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AMAdam Met14:51

       We can go and be, try and be bigger and bigger and bigger. We could try to be the biggest artist in the world. I have always been inspired by the music industry, and I've always been inspired by so many different things because of what I mentioned before, that there are so many different ways to move people. There are so many different ways to figure out how to use emotion effectively to succeed in things. And so music was my first love, and it was my first step in this journey.

   23. SSSimon Sinek15:21

       And seeing how something that you made made people feel.

   24. AMAdam Met15:26

       Yeah. Yep. And now, as much as I love it and as much as I wanna keep doing it-

   25. SSSimon Sinek15:32

       Mm-hmm

   26. AMAdam Met15:32

       ... looking at how we can use all of these strategies in different movements to make the world a better place is my next goal. And so I'm not doing as much music as I have been before. This past summer, I didn't do all the shows with my brothers. I did New York and LA and a handful of other, other markets, and I really enjoy performing and being on stage. And I'll even, when I'm at home, I'll stay up till 3:00 in the morning playing piano. My neighbors are very unhappy with me.

   27. SSSimon Sinek16:00

       [laughs]

   28. AMAdam Met16:00

       Um, I play mostly Broadway songs.

   29. SSSimon Sinek16:03

       [laughs] I'm w- I'm one of your neighbors.

   30. AMAdam Met16:05

       [laughs]
8. 17:16 – 24:26

   Why the “Climate Movement” Isn’t Working

   1. AMAdam Met17:16

      Um, right now it is the climate movement, but I h-hate calling it that because I fundamentally do not believe the climate movement should exist.

   2. SSSimon Sinek17:24

      Hmm.

   3. AMAdam Met17:25

      I believe that, I mean, we're getting deep into it now, but I believe we as the climate movement have completely failed over the last bunch of years. There ha- there has been some legislation that's been successful, but nobody can connect to climate change. Nobody knows what 1.5 degrees is. Nobody knows what net zero is. It's a big problem. If we take the whole movement and divide it up into things like farming and transportation and energy and water and, um, how we build things, how we grow things, how we get from place to place, that's so much easier for people to engage with than, "I wanna fight for the climate movement."

   4. SSSimon Sinek18:01

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AMAdam Met18:01

      The era of Greta and fear and anger around climate is over.

   6. SSSimon Sinek18:07

      So you and I met at a party-

   7. AMAdam Met18:08

      Yeah

   8. SSSimon Sinek18:09

      ... uh, in London of all places.

   9. AMAdam Met18:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SSSimon Sinek18:11

       And I think I, when I heard that you worked on climate, I think I went on a tirade-

   11. AMAdam Met18:16

       Uh-huh

   12. SSSimon Sinek18:16

       ... uh, because I can't help myself.

   13. AMAdam Met18:18

       Yeah.

   14. SSSimon Sinek18:19

       And at the end of my tirade, you go, "Did you read my op-ed?"

   15. AMAdam Met18:22

       [laughs]

   16. SSSimon Sinek18:23

       "'Cause that's, that's what I wrote."

   17. AMAdam Met18:24

       [laughs]

   18. SSSimon Sinek18:25

       And that's when we bonded. My tirade is, is very similar as, as you-

   19. AMAdam Met18:28

       Mm-hmm

   20. SSSimon Sinek18:30

       Don't let scientists run social movements.

   21. AMAdam Met18:32

       Yeah.

   22. SSSimon Sinek18:33

       Right? Because scientists are about uncertainty, and science are about things that are vague, and they're terrible communicators.

   23. AMAdam Met18:40

       Yeah.

   24. SSSimon Sinek18:40

       The fact that we debate, you know, climate change is funny to me.

   25. AMAdam Met18:44

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SSSimon Sinek18:44

       You know? Uh, like, we debate whether it's a natural, uh, climate cycle-

   27. AMAdam Met18:49

       Mm-hmm

   28. SSSimon Sinek18:50

       ... or whether it's, uh, caused by, by human beings.

   29. AMAdam Met18:53

       Yep.

   30. SSSimon Sinek18:54

       And who cares?
9. 24:26 – 25:23

   Why Hyper-Local Action Moves People to Act

   1. SSSimon Sinek24:26

      Right.

   2. AMAdam Met24:26

      And so when we built out our tour last summer, and we've done this with a bunch of other artists now-In each city, we create a way for fans to engage around a policy that's hyper-local to that city, and I'll give you an example.

   3. SSSimon Sinek24:39

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AMAdam Met24:40

      Last year, we pulled into Phoenix. It was 109 degrees out, literally 109 degrees when we pulled into Phoenix. The action that we had people taking on-site at our show was to sign a petition to get FEMA to designate extreme heat as an emergency so that funds could be unlocked. We didn't phrase it in the way that I just phrased it to you. It was, "Isn't it too hot out? Your friends and family are feeling it. Sign this petition so we can get more money in order to protect you all from the heat." You know, something very simple and easy. That kind of thing resonated with people.

   5. SSSimon Sinek25:14

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AMAdam Met25:14

      We did this in every single city with an issue that made sense for that city. In Salt Lake City, it was about preserving the level of the Great Salt Lake. Everything was hyper-local.

10. 25:23 – 29:18

    Phoenix, Extreme Heat, and 1,000 Signatures in One Night

    1. SSSimon Sinek25:23

       It's stuff that people do recognize and care about-

    2. AMAdam Met25:25

       Exactly

    3. SSSimon Sinek25:26

       ... like hurricanes-

    4. AMAdam Met25:27

       Exactly

    5. SSSimon Sinek25:27

       ... tornadoes, floods, the things, forest fires, the things that are affecting-

    6. AMAdam Met25:31

       That person

    7. SSSimon Sinek25:31

       ... whatever where I live.

    8. AMAdam Met25:32

       Yeah.

    9. SSSimon Sinek25:33

       'Cause I live in LA now. I don't think-

    10. AMAdam Met25:34

        Mm-hmm

    11. SSSimon Sinek25:34

        ... of hurricanes at all.

    12. AMAdam Met25:35

        No, you think of fires.

    13. SSSimon Sinek25:36

        I think of fires.

    14. AMAdam Met25:37

        Absolutely. So we just-- We, we did this on Billie Eilish's UK tour. We did this on a couple shows on Tyler Childers' tour, who's a country artist. Um, and on Tyler Childers' tour, we did this, uh, partnership with a group called Appalachian Voices, which was about coal mining and protecting the coal mining communities from the effects of coal, right?

    15. SSSimon Sinek25:57

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AMAdam Met25:58

        But that is about a health issue. That is about a jobs issue. We're not framing it in terms of climate change. Sure, coal is a climate change issue, but to that community-

    17. SSSimon Sinek26:06

        Yeah

    18. AMAdam Met26:06

        ... it's about health, and it's about jobs.

    19. SSSimon Sinek26:08

        And I think that's what people misunderstand. When you take it down to that level, like, the people in these coal mining, uh, communities aren't anti-climate change. They're just like, "I was a coal miner. My father was a coal miner. My father's father was a coal miner."

    20. AMAdam Met26:19

        Exactly.

    21. SSSimon Sinek26:20

        It's like, "This is how I provide for my family," and then you lefties come in and be like, "We're shutting down your coal mine for the environment." Like, I can't think of the environment if you're telling me you're taking away my paycheck.

    22. AMAdam Met26:29

        Of course.

    23. SSSimon Sinek26:30

        And so I'm not anti-climate change-

    24. AMAdam Met26:34

        Yeah

    25. SSSimon Sinek26:34

        ... or anti that movement. I'm anti you taking away my paycheck without setting me up with anything new.

    26. AMAdam Met26:39

        Exactly. Audience is key. So I teach climate policy and campaigning at Columbia. The first thing I always teach my students is that when you're developing a campaign, you need to understand who your audience is. My brain is an academic o- one just as much it is, as it is one that's emotionally driven.

    27. SSSimon Sinek26:56

        Yeah.

    28. AMAdam Met26:56

        And so in order to do this work that I was just talking about on tour, we did a really big study with Ticketmaster and with another organization called Reverb, and all of us together, we did this poll that we put out into the field. It went out to about 350,000 recent ticket purchasers to understand from the audience-

    29. SSSimon Sinek27:14

        Mm

    30. AMAdam Met27:14

        ... the actions they were willing to take, the areas that they cared about in terms of causes.
11. 29:18 – 33:12

    Why In-Person Connection Is the New Currency

    1. SSSimon Sinek29:18

       He's a lot bigger than you.

    2. AMAdam Met29:20

       [laughs] Ugh, but I'm more spry. [laughs] So a year ago, Al Gore and I were at a dinner, and he says, "Adam, like, I need some help thinking about how we can build better digital advocacy strategies." And I said, "No, that's the wrong question. It's how do we use the digital space to move people in person?" Because I promise you that in the next two, three years, in-person connection is going to be the most valuable currency, and we're already seeing that.

    3. SSSimon Sinek29:52

       Yeah.

    4. AMAdam Met29:52

       We're already seeing with the growth of AI-created content that people are having more and more mistrust of what they're seeing online with misinformation and disinformation. Same thing. People are craving personal connection with other people. We're seeing a huge rise in things like book clubs, running clubs across the country.

    5. SSSimon Sinek30:09

       Yeah.

    6. AMAdam Met30:10

       Live Nation and Ticketmaster in 2024 sold 250 million tickets in the US. That's a huge number of tickets-

    7. SSSimon Sinek30:19

       Wow

    8. AMAdam Met30:19

       ... of people going in person.

    9. SSSimon Sinek30:21

       Wanting to see something.

    10. AMAdam Met30:22

        In June, they announced a new billion-dollar investment in new venues because they see this demand for people having this connection to other people. So I said this to Al Gore, and I said, "You should be creating these digital platforms as an off-ramp, as a way to move people in person. It's a gathering space to then move them somewhere else."

    11. SSSimon Sinek30:40

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AMAdam Met30:40

        It's a wave-

    13. SSSimon Sinek30:41

        It's a, it's a halfway point.

    14. AMAdam Met30:41

        Exactly.

    15. SSSimon Sinek30:42

        It's a wave point.

    16. AMAdam Met30:42

        Exactly.

    17. SSSimon Sinek30:43

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AMAdam Met30:43

        And so, uh, he didn't necessarily believe me.But, you know, I will prove him, prove to him that I am correct with time.

    19. SSSimon Sinek30:51

        I, I, I mean, I think you're right, and the, uh, the data shows it and, and my work reflects that as well.

    20. AMAdam Met30:55

        Yeah.

    21. SSSimon Sinek30:56

        I mean, we can see it. We see young people becoming-

    22. AMAdam Met30:58

        Yeah

    23. SSSimon Sinek30:58

        ... disillusioned with social media, and they are the ones raising their hand saying, "Can we get off this stuff, and how do we find ways to go do things?"

    24. AMAdam Met31:04

        Yeah.

    25. SSSimon Sinek31:05

        I, I, and one of the things I think that goes with in-person and, and you, and all of the things that we're seeing in the world, none of them are to blame by themselves, but they all contribute. Social media, clearly. Cell phones, clearly. AI and not knowing what to trust, clearly.

    26. AMAdam Met31:16

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SSSimon Sinek31:17

        V- highly polarized media, clearly. Highly polarized politicians serving themselves, not us, clearly.

    28. AMAdam Met31:22

        Yeah.

    29. SSSimon Sinek31:23

        Like, all of these things are contributing to this, that, this idea, and the net result is not just that we don't know what to believe, but we don't feel like we belong-

    30. AMAdam Met31:30

        Mm-hmm
12. 33:12 – 39:49

    Finding Common Ground With Glenn Beck

    1. SSSimon Sinek33:12

       Right-wing

    2. AMAdam Met33:12

       ... right-wing-

    3. SSSimon Sinek33:13

       Yep

    4. AMAdam Met33:13

       ... like, Fox commentator-

    5. SSSimon Sinek33:15

       Yep

    6. AMAdam Met33:15

       ... um, precursor to Tucker Carlson.

    7. SSSimon Sinek33:17

       Yep.

    8. AMAdam Met33:18

       And the end of his tweet was, "This show and the AJR's music really helps me connect with my son." So I started to think about that. This was an in-person event, and when I was writing this book, Amplify, it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna have a chapter that's about how to bring people together who disagree with each other-

    9. SSSimon Sinek33:36

       Mm-hmm

    10. AMAdam Met33:36

        ... using this in person, using this specific language." So I wrote to Glenn, and I said, "Can I come down to Texas and talk to you?" And so I sat in person with Glenn for four hours interviewing him, and my secret goal that he didn't know was to find one thing we could agree on.

    11. SSSimon Sinek33:54

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AMAdam Met33:54

        Because we fundamentally disagree on pretty much every social issue.

    13. SSSimon Sinek33:58

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AMAdam Met33:59

        We spent four hours talking about gay rights, about religion, about immigration, about healthcare, about literally everything you could possibly imagine, and he knows that I'm pretty far on the left in terms of climate. We started to have a conversation about the different places that he lives, and he has a house in the Intermountain West. I forget where it is, I think Idaho. And he goes, "Adam, you're gonna be so happy. My house is completely clean. You know, I use, uh, solar on the roof, and we use natural gas." And I said, "Oh, you, that's great that you use solar. Um, natural gas?" You know, he said, "Yeah, it's completely clean." And I said, "Who told you that?" And he said, "Everybody knows. It's natural." And I say, "Oh, well, just so you know, natural gas is made up mostly of methane, which is about 80 times stronger than carbon dioxide in terms of warming the planet." He's like, "You're trying to take my stove."

    15. SSSimon Sinek34:52

        [laughs]

    16. AMAdam Met34:52

        And I said, "No, no, no. One of the biggest contributors to climate change is leaks from methane gas pipelines. They're literally pipelines that are sending this gas from place to place, and they're leaking. If we-"

    17. SSSimon Sinek35:06

        Which is not well taken care of.

    18. AMAdam Met35:07

        Correct.

    19. SSSimon Sinek35:07

        If they were perfect, then it would have a different conversation.

    20. AMAdam Met35:09

        Correct. So the one thing-

    21. SSSimon Sinek35:11

        So it's not the gas, it's the taking care of the gas.

    22. AMAdam Met35:13

        Exactly.

    23. SSSimon Sinek35:14

        Oh.

    24. AMAdam Met35:15

        So the one thing in four hours we were able to agree on-

    25. SSSimon Sinek35:18

        Yeah

    26. AMAdam Met35:18

        ... is creating incentives to plug leaks-

    27. SSSimon Sinek35:21

        Yeah

    28. AMAdam Met35:21

        ... in methane gas pipelines. And so Glenn Beck, so fundamentally different from me, took four hours to get there, but if he took that forward with his followers and influencing politicians, that would have huge impact.

    29. SSSimon Sinek35:33

        But that's so, but again, this goes back to human responsibility, right?

    30. AMAdam Met35:36

        Yeah.
13. 39:49 – 47:03

    Politics vs Policy... and Why Caring Is Apolitical

    1. AMAdam Met39:49

       Yeah. It's funny, I've been asked to run for office a couple of times. And I don't think I've talked about this publicly before. I've been asked to run for office a couple times.

    2. SSSimon Sinek39:57

       Are you announcing your candidacy right here?

    3. AMAdam Met39:58

       I am definitely not.

    4. SSSimon Sinek39:59

       [laughs]

    5. AMAdam Met39:59

       I'm announcing the opposite of my candidacy.

    6. SSSimon Sinek40:02

       [laughs]

    7. AMAdam Met40:02

       Which is, I think in the moment, the work that I can do in bringing people together across the political spectrum is more valuable than me being in office representing a district.

    8. SSSimon Sinek40:15

       Great. So why talk about your politics at all?

    9. AMAdam Met40:19

       Because I think-

    10. SSSimon Sinek40:19

        'Cause who you vote for is your business. Who I vote for is my business.

    11. AMAdam Met40:21

        Yeah.

    12. SSSimon Sinek40:22

        But, like, it doesn't really matter what your views on various social policies are.

    13. AMAdam Met40:28

        I think that's fair, except I have a platform with fans who are listening to me, and I firmly believed that the world would have been in a better place had Kamala Harris been president. And so I was out on the road campaigning for Kamala Harris, and I felt like it was my responsibility to tell people, "This is what I believe." And it just-

    14. SSSimon Sinek40:52

        Does that damage your movement in climate?

    15. AMAdam Met40:56

        But here's the thing. I also helped out a Republican senator that was running in Utah, and I also helped out a Democrat that was running in this race, and a Republican that was running in this race.

    16. SSSimon Sinek41:07

        Ah.

    17. AMAdam Met41:08

        So-

    18. SSSimon Sinek41:08

        So you have endorsed both sides of the house.

    19. AMAdam Met41:11

        Yeah, exactly.

    20. SSSimon Sinek41:12

        Interesting.

    21. AMAdam Met41:13

        So there's this, um, senator out of Utah. His name is John Curtis, and he's great. He's one of the people who sponsored this bill that I worked on, the Colocation Energy Act, and I just went in, and in his office I did a whole training, or with his entire office, around movement building. I will do that for Republicans, and I will do that for Democrats. I am agnostic on that because I believe it's about people and helping people that are their constituents. He has millions of constituents in the state of Utah. I wanna help those people. I am not to the left on everything. There are some things that I'm further to the right on. But I think because of the platform that I have, it's my responsibility to use it in order to move things forward.

    22. SSSimon Sinek41:57

        You know, I have a different point of view.

    23. AMAdam Met41:58

        Great.

    24. SSSimon Sinek41:58

        Which is I think people like you and people who put out messages that are good for everyone, uh, when they start to steer into politics, for all the reasons that we're angry about-

    25. AMAdam Met42:07

        Mm-hmm

    26. SSSimon Sinek42:07

        ... and the polarization of the country, and people don't listen, and they judge too quickly-

    27. AMAdam Met42:10

        Mm-hmm

    28. SSSimon Sinek42:10

        ... and sound bites, et cetera-

    29. AMAdam Met42:12

        Yeah

    30. SSSimon Sinek42:12

        ... large portions of the population will not listen to you or discount everything you're saying simply because you announced your politics.
14. 47:03 – 50:19

    People Enjoy Good Stories, but Great Stories Inspire Action

    1. SSSimon Sinek47:03

       or a musician?

    2. AMAdam Met47:03

       It's funny. These are each chapters in the book. So, um, one of them is about how to really drill down and figure out who your audience is and then tell stories that work for your audience. And there's a big difference between a good story and an effective story. A good story is one that you'll tell to people, and they'll tell their friends and family about it, but an effective story is one that will make people get up off their ass and do something about it.

    3. SSSimon Sinek47:28

       Give me an example.

    4. AMAdam Met47:29

       When, when we told this story in Phoenix, the example that I gave you before.

    5. SSSimon Sinek47:33

       Yeah.

    6. AMAdam Met47:33

       When we told the story about what was happening in Phoenix of people dying of the heat and provided that space for them to actually do something right there after hearing the story, the num- We got 1,000 signatures in the moment because there was the ability to tell this story, people related to it emotionally, and there was ability for them to take action directly on it. Yeah.

    7. SSSimon Sinek47:53

       So there's a beginning, middle, and end.

    8. AMAdam Met47:55

       There's a beginning, mill- and, middle, and end, and it is personally relatable.

    9. SSSimon Sinek47:59

       Got it.

    10. AMAdam Met47:59

        So but a good story would be is if I was in Chicago and saying, "In Phoenix, it's 109 degrees out."

    11. SSSimon Sinek48:06

        Ah, right, right, right, right.

    12. AMAdam Met48:07

        Right? In Phoenix, it's 30 degrees out. They can't really relate to the problem as much.

    13. SSSimon Sinek48:12

        Right.

    14. AMAdam Met48:12

        So it's a good story, and they'll tell their friends, "Oh my God, did you hear in Phoenix? It's 109 degrees out."

    15. SSSimon Sinek48:16

        And nothing happens.

    16. AMAdam Met48:16

        Great, what are they gonna do about it?

    17. SSSimon Sinek48:17

        Right.

    18. AMAdam Met48:18

        Yeah.

    19. SSSimon Sinek48:18

        It's like people on the East Coast supporting legislation for forest fires, wildfires-

    20. AMAdam Met48:22

        Totally

    21. SSSimon Sinek48:23

        ... and people on the West Coast signing up for legislation to s- to help hurricane victims. It's like-

    22. AMAdam Met48:26

        Exactly. Exactly

    23. SSSimon Sinek48:28

        ... eh.

    24. AMAdam Met48:28

        So who is your audience?

    25. SSSimon Sinek48:29

        Right.

    26. AMAdam Met48:29

        And your audience is not gonna be homogenous.

    27. SSSimon Sinek48:31

        Right.

    28. AMAdam Met48:31

        There's gonna be audiences within audiences within audience, and fine. And even if you wanna target a hyper-narrow segment of that audience-

    29. SSSimon Sinek48:39

        Okay

    30. AMAdam Met48:39

        ... who is that audience? What is the story want, they wanna hear, and what is the thing that's gonna get them to get up and do something?
15. 50:19 – 1:01:14

    How to Build Movements That Actually Work

    1. AMAdam Met50:19

       so key. [laughs]

    2. SSSimon Sinek50:20

       You are a magical blend of left brain, right brain, of highly academic, uh, and also an artist. What, um, about being an artist and the-

    3. AMAdam Met50:31

       Mm-hmm

    4. SSSimon Sinek50:31

       ... love of art makes you a better thinker?

    5. AMAdam Met50:35

       Wow. It's funny. When I'm sitting at the piano and playing or thinking about anything having to do with music creativity, that creativity lives in exactly the same spot in my brain as me coming up with a policy idea that has never been invented before. I don't see these as two different things. There is a flow state, and I know that's, like, you know, woo-woo to talk like, "Oh, get into a flow state." There's a flow state [laughs] when I am creative, when I'm playing piano, or when I have a policy hat on that feels physically exactly the same to me.

    6. SSSimon Sinek51:21

       But do you feel that you are better capable of achieving flow state for, for thought-

    7. AMAdam Met51:28

       Mm-hmm

    8. SSSimon Sinek51:28

       ... because you're an artist?

    9. AMAdam Met51:30

       I feel like being an artist taught me how to open that gate, and I can't really describe what that is except it feels like a gate, like I just... It feels like drugs, honestly.

    10. SSSimon Sinek51:48

        Mm.

    11. AMAdam Met51:48

        It feels like... I don't know if we're allowed to talk about that. [laughs]

    12. SSSimon Sinek51:51

        You can talk about whatever you want.

    13. AMAdam Met51:52

        I guess. [laughs] But it feels like if... You probably know what I'm talking about. If, if I'm doing a certain kind of drug that puts you into a state that opens your mind and you feel connected with nature and, you know, that kind of drug.

    14. SSSimon Sinek52:05

        I, I don't know whether to be complimented or offended when you said, "You know what I'm talking about."

    15. AMAdam Met52:10

        [laughs]

    16. SSSimon Sinek52:11

        Uh, and for the record, I have no idea what you're talking about.

    17. AMAdam Met52:13

        Oh, okay.

    18. SSSimon Sinek52:14

        [laughs]

    19. AMAdam Met52:14

        All right. Thanks for throwing me under the bus there.

    20. SSSimon Sinek52:17

        [laughs]

    21. AMAdam Met52:18

        Really appreciate that. There's something that happens with drugs like that that is very similar for me when I'm in a policy mindset-

    22. SSSimon Sinek52:29

        Yeah

    23. AMAdam Met52:29

        ... or when I'm in a music-playing mindset.

    24. SSSimon Sinek52:32

        Yeah.

    25. AMAdam Met52:32

        But the music, 'cause when I was a kid, that's when it started, it taught me what it feels like to be in that state.

    26. SSSimon Sinek52:37

        When people ask me, like, "Where do you get your ideas?" What they, what I've learned a long time ago is when, when you study the thing you're trying to solve, you will not come up with the idea.

    27. AMAdam Met52:47

        Yeah.

    28. SSSimon Sinek52:48

        The thing you're trying to solve, the question has to be asked, and then you want to go explore and meander.

    29. AMAdam Met52:53

        Yes.

    30. SSSimon Sinek52:54

        And-

Episode duration: 1:01:15