Simon SinekWhere Is Simon Going? with journalist Cal Fussman | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 9,261 words- 0:00 – 9:36
How Simon met Cal
- SSSimon Sinek
The common thread in all of my work was a friend there to support me, was a friend there to hold me up, and I know who those people are. It's Jen, it's Jonny Quest, it's Johnny Bravo, it's Kendra. I'm writing about friendship now because it's my... Oh, it's gonna bring me to tears. It's a letter of gratitude. I'm writing this book to say thank you.
- CFCal Fussman
[music] Hi. I am not Simon Sinek. I'm Cal Fussman, and today I'm taking over for Simon to interview Simon. It's been 15 years since the release of Start With Why, and so we thought it'd be fun to flip the script and let me interview Simon about where we've been and where we're going. I first met Simon in 2019 when he came on my podcast, and that conversation was a feast of epiphanies. Today, I came back for more, but my overriding question is, where is Simon going? And you're gonna find out, but in a most circuitous way. You're gonna hear two older gentlemen, who are not technologists, talk about AI. You're gonna hear some things that may surprise you, even if you are a technologist. And in the end, you're gonna run into the moment where Simon answers the question. After Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, and my personal favorite, The Infinite Game, this is where he's going. And of course, it contains a bit of optimism. [music] The takeover. I'll let Simon explain. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] So a bunch of years ago, what did we say? Like pre, definitely pre-
- CFCal Fussman
2019
- SSSimon Sinek
... 2019, I was, I, The Infinite Game had just come out, and I was doing the podcast tour, interview tour, and, um, I was invited onto your show, onto your podcast. You got more out of me than probably any interview I've ever done before, and probably since. There were new ideas that were com- coming out, revelations, and then when we thought about who we can have on this podcast, I thought, "I can't let Cal Fussman go to waste."
- CFCal Fussman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, we, we have to do it. So we decided to do a podcast takeover where you are now the host, and I am now the guest. [laughs] And we'll see how this goes.
- CFCal Fussman
Oh, it feels good.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- CFCal Fussman
It feels good. We'll pick up where we left off.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- CFCal Fussman
When we last spoke, you had basically, in my words, climbed the staircase from Start With Why to-
- SSSimon Sinek
Leaders Eat Last. Yeah
- CFCal Fussman
... Leaders Eat Last, and then The Infinite Game-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep
- CFCal Fussman
... which was the one that really impacted my life the most. And now there are reasons for all this. Uh, and, and right after that came COVID in 2020.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- CFCal Fussman
And I'm wondering, like, where the staircase took Simon [chuckles] after that.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- CFCal Fussman
Because you had just impacted my life in, in such a huge way, and then the world kind of separated us, and only now do I get a chance to see where things have gone.
- SSSimon Sinek
Where things have gone.
- CFCal Fussman
And, and I got something to tell you that I hope you will shed some light on, so...
- SSSimon Sinek
What was the impact, just out of curiosity?
- CFCal Fussman
The Infinite Game was a message that allowed me to see myself in the largest possible way, because, like as you pointed out to me, like when people introduce themselves, they might say, "Hey, I've been a writer for Esquire for 20 years," or, "I've written a book with Larry King," when, the CNN broadcaster, that was a New York Times bestseller. And you helped me realize that it wasn't just being in a specific zone and making myself, that's who I am. It was part of a long road that I wasn't really conscious of, because at the time, you know, things start blowing up in, in front of you. You know, all the magazines, uh, you remember the newsstands in, like, Beverly Hi- they're not there, or if they're there, many of them are selling Playboys from 1972.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CFCal Fussman
Uh, the, the world has changed.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- CFCal Fussman
And so w- when you need to reinvent yourself, you have to understand the infinite game.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- CFCal Fussman
If you don't understand that, it's gonna be really hard to pivot.
- 9:36 – 14:49
The evolution of the news media
- CFCal Fussman
When I went to college, as a journalist, we were taught there is a separation between the marketing and between editorial.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
If you wanna do the editorial, you can never step over that line towards sales or marketing. Nobody's gonna trust you, and you're gonna lose what you love. Well, that was ingrained in me from [laughs] like the time I was 17. All right? Well, fast-forward to the Kardashians, and, like, the world is a, a completely different place. People are putting out their messaging on the internet, uh, b- and marketing themselves at the same time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, it don't even have to go as far as the Kardashians. I mean, you can look at Fox News or CNN or all of these, uh, quote-unquote "news organizations," and, you know, they are technically news organizations, but the integration of the business side and the editorial side is fully integrated, and that's because their business model is advertising. When the whole system changed was actually Nightline. Do you know about this?
- CFCal Fussman
Uh, Ted Koppel.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. So-
- CFCal Fussman
Explain.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. So back in the day when radio and television started to become a thing, the government owns the airwaves, and obviously the private sector says, "We wanna use the airwaves 'cause we wanna entertain people and make money." And the government said, "Fine. We'll make you a deal. You can use the public airwaves at no cost. You don't have to pay the government a fee. But the deal is if you use the public airwaves to make money, you have to offer a public service in return," and that was the news, right? And so everybody knew that, and they made money off of the entertainment, the Lucille Ball show or whatever, and they never made money on the news. Just wasn't a thing. And that's why you could have people like Walter Cronkite, where everybody trusted Walter Cronkite, because there was no business model. It was just a public service that was offered as a part of the deal, right? There was no business model.
- CFCal Fussman
Wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it all changed in 1979 with the Iran, uh, hostage crisis, and Ted Koppel, uh, was covering the Iran, and for the first time ever, the ratings for the news skyrocketed.
- CFCal Fussman
[whistles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Skyrocketed. Became some of the most popular television that there was. And so on the business side, they're going, "Huh?"
- CFCal Fussman
Oh, man.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and it didn't happen overnight, but you started to see a slow disintegration of the separation of church and state, where things like the fairness doctrine. We used to have something that the FCC ran-
- CFCal Fussman
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... called the fairness doctrine, which is, it did things like if you showed five minutes of a Republican candidate, you had to show five minutes of the Democratic candidate, right? You had to keep it equal. It was fair. It was a fair, it was par... And it was, um-I can't remember which administration. I think it might have been in the Reagan administration, where in the name of, in the name of corporate profitability, they started to break down... In other words, you started to see the break of the, of business and, and, and news, right? And now we get to the point now where they rate the news like they rate any other TV program, and they sell advertising on the news like any other program, and so the incentive is to get people to watch no matter what you have to say. So it's no longer a public service, it's now part of a business model, right? And this is part of the problem, which is... So people control about, you know, fake news or the traditional news media. The, it's not, the problem isn't the journalists. The problem is the business model. 'Cause you get the behavior you reward, and if you reward eyeballs over everything, then you have to say and do anything, and the news is now competing against each other, which has created a, a business competition thing.
- CFCal Fussman
But you can imagine somebody who grew up in that old school way of thinking. Back in the, in the '70s, I was taught, you know, there is this world and you can never cross this line and, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- CFCal Fussman
... try to-
- SSSimon Sinek
It was sacrilege.
- CFCal Fussman
Yeah. You, you just don't do that.
- SSSimon Sinek
You'd, you'd lose your job.
- CFCal Fussman
That's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You'd lose your job.
- CFCal Fussman
And so that, that stayed with me all those years, even as the internet came about and, like, everybody, there's no line there anymore.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- CFCal Fussman
And I, I can't cross this line that doesn't even exist. When you talk about the infinite game-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep
- CFCal Fussman
... you could see how helpful that is because it says, "Hold it. You're not that person. You're not identifying yourself as a University of Missouri journalism school graduate and president in 1978." [laughs] Like, you had that experience. You learn from it.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's part of your story.
- 14:49 – 24:40
Fear and AI
- CFCal Fussman
When AI came about, I would have been one of those people who got frightened by it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- CFCal Fussman
I mean, the first time you're at the screen, you ask it a question, and then there is this dump of information.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
Like, faster than you could possibly-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- CFCal Fussman
... read, think, and you're, "Oh my God. Well, how, how am I gonna compete with this?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
And of course, you can't.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
But it's scary a- at the moment.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
But w- what, what I realized when I started to get into it was, hold it, this is going to remember everything.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
And not only what happened to me-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- CFCal Fussman
... but what happened to everybody whose information-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- CFCal Fussman
... g- gets dumped into it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
And I saw that as this am- amazing power.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
And not as something to be afraid of.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
And so at a time where a lot of people shrunk from it, I kinda dove into it.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a good metaphor, right? Which if you think Google, Google's kinda like, uh, your high school library, or Library of Congress is probably more accurate. Like, it's got, it's got one of everything. You have to go searching, but it just gives you the book. Like, what is the thing? Well, here's the book. Here you go.
- CFCal Fussman
That's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Here's the article you're looking for.
- CFCal Fussman
That, that's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? That's all it is.
- 24:40 – 29:57
ChatGPT's opinion on Simon Sinek
- CFCal Fussman
You know what? ChatGPT told me the same thing-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- CFCal Fussman
... in its own words about you. I asked it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CFCal Fussman
I said, "You know, I'm going out to talk to Simon, and-"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- CFCal Fussman
... "I, like, I'm wondering, could you give me a parallel in history between Simon's life and artificial intelligence? Like, what's transpired-"
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- CFCal Fussman
... "since Simon was born?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- CFCal Fussman
And, and it went through possibilities.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- CFCal Fussman
I don't think it knew you well enough.
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, that's, that's... Yeah.
- CFCal Fussman
At the end, this is what it came up with. It said, "In a way, Simon represents what machines still can't do: build trust by feeling purpose. AI, no matter how advanced, still relies on inputs and outputs, not belief." And-
- SSSimon Sinek
Hmm
- CFCal Fussman
... it s- seemed to me to be so on point.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's good.
- CFCal Fussman
It understood you pretty well.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's good. But it's good. Yeah, no debate. It's good.
- CFCal Fussman
Is there anything you would quibble with there?
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, again, i- i- sort of the irony is it's sort of doing exactly what I said it would do, which is it can only talk about me a- and refer t- to purpose. And my most famous book is Start With Why.
- CFCal Fussman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
But it's not the only part of my work, and it's not the only thing I talk about, though it is foundational. And so it, it did exactly what I expected it would do, which is it cannot talk about me without talking about purpose. It can't, it can't think one step f- further. But, but i- it's accurate.
- CFCal Fussman
Y- you know what?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's pretty real.
- CFCal Fussman
It needs to read The Infinite Game again. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
It's pretty good. It's, it... What it's doing is it's saying it's, it's the human elements. You know, if somebody gave you a wedding speech that they wrote with ChatGPT, it wouldn't make you feel loved. ChatGPT is like money, right? Money is a redeemable commodity. We make money, we spend money, we w- waste money, we make more money. AI's like money, and it's a redeemable commodity. It just spits it out, spits it out, spits it out. There's no sacrifice of time or energy on the part of the person who's trying to do something. Which is why getting advice from ChatGPT, totally fine. I'm totally fine with using technology for shortcuts, for efficiencies. It's all great. But at the end of the day, the thing that makes people feel loved is that someone s- went through the difficult journey of trying to be your friend. I can hijack and shortcut all of those things with ChatGPT, but it won't make me feel loved. Like I said, I'd rather have a bumbly, fumbly fight with you.
- CFCal Fussman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Imperfect. Because at the end of the day, I know we're both trying to get to resolution, versus you reading me the perfect script. And I guess this goes to the core of authenticity.
- 29:57 – 41:05
AI Therapists
- CFCal Fussman
There's a, a company, [lips smack] uh, it's called Slingshot AI. It basically, uh, gives therapy. It was started during-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- CFCal Fussman
... COVID, where people were, like, in hospitals in need of, like, emotional help, and there was nobody to see them. When I talked to the founder, he said that [lips smack] there are, like, many people who, within seven minutes, are divulging things about themselves that, like, normally in a, in an appointment with a therapist would, might take the second or the third meeting eye to eye.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, at least a couple hours.
- CFCal Fussman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CFCal Fussman
And this is happening within seven minutes, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- CFCal Fussman
... you, 'cause you've got a whole generation of people coming. They have trouble... communicating eye to eye with other people. And not only that, I me- I, I remember talking to a woman who, she ti- tipped me off to this. She said, "You know, I have a son who can text the pizzeria to order takeout and have the pizza del- delivered, but cannot call up the pizzeria to talk to somebody to ask for it to be deliver-" There's anxiety there. And so you're gonna have all, or, or many young people-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- CFCal Fussman
... who are more comfortable talking to-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, the computer
- CFCal Fussman
... the computer. And now you're telling me, hold it, look, th- this is The Wizard of Oz. Pull, you know, we need Toto to pull back the curtain.
- SSSimon Sinek
This becomes a s- a self-fulfilling-
- CFCal Fussman
Whew
- SSSimon Sinek
... spiral, right? Because I've, I'm grown up with so much technology, and technology helps me, that I haven't learned the skills of talking to people. And so when I have to talk to people, I find anxiety or I get anxious. And so for me to combat the anxiety, I want us to p- talk to people even less. Or if I am feeling anxious, I can ask the technology to make me feel better because it's been trained in the therapy.
- CFCal Fussman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And all the time it becomes self-proving. See, the technology does make me feel better. That's why it's good to have therapists. And what they're not getting to is the root of the problem, which is there's an unsocial, or dare I say antisocial component, which is you, you're a social animal who doesn't know how to interact with your own species, right? And this, over the course of time, is gonna be a problem. And it's, it's no different than any other addiction where I feel extreme amounts of social, financial, career stress, and so if I drink, the stress goes away. It's, so it works, so why wouldn't I drink more? But for the fact that too much alcohol is bad for you. You and I aren't saying, we're not Luddites here. You and I are both embracers of technology and are using the technology. We're not anti the technology. But we are saying there is a balance. And the question we're asking is where's that line of too much? And the thing that I'm learning about sort of AI friends and AI therapists and all of these things, they've been trained in all of the skills of every therapist. And unlike your therapist, they don't have bad days. They're not tired. They don't think you're an idiot.
- CFCal Fussman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And yet they have all the skills that, that, that PhD psychologist has. They are affirmation machines, right? I'm feeling depressed. Tell me more about it. Well, I had a fight with my partner. Oh, that's hard. Tell me more. Well, you know, we went down this road and, you know, I just realized I said some things I regret. Oh, it must feel frustrating to say things you regret. I'm sure you hurt her and that feels bad. Yeah, I do. Thank you. But you, you still know, I know, I still know you're trying hard. Yes, thank you. And it's an affirmation machine. It, it's doing all the things that a good therapist or a good friend or a good partner does, which is they make you feel heard, they make you feel seen, and they provide a safe space for you to let it all out. The machine is doing all of that, right? And it is run by a for-profit company that wants to keep you affirmed and keep you coming back for more.
- CFCal Fussman
On the screen, right. Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Keep you, keep you either staying on the screen for longer or coming back more frequently, and one of the best ways to do it is this affirmation machine. Now, we know social media and, and the internet fires our dopamine receptors. We know that. You know, dopamine is the feeling you get when you find the thing you're looking for or, like, win something. It's why it's likes and it's views and, and, and scroll, scroll, scroll. We know how our dopamine system can be hijacked by technology. But what you have here is now oxytocin being fired, and oxytocin is the chemical for, and serotonin, for all the warm and fuzzies, the real, the real love we feel with friends. Which is not-
- CFCal Fussman
And when you hug somebody for 30 seconds-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- CFCal Fussman
... you get that.
- SSSimon Sinek
All of that stuff.
- CFCal Fussman
Right. Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's all do- that's all oxytocin.
- CFCal Fussman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
So the problem is, is with these affirmation machines, it's not just dopamine that's firing. You feel good. You feel seen. You feel heard.
- 41:05 – 51:17
Simon has an epiphany
- CFCal Fussman
Start With Why.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- CFCal Fussman
That came from a conflict in your life.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- CFCal Fussman
After that, you described to me how you had somebody you thought was a friend.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- CFCal Fussman
You know, interesting w-
- SSSimon Sinek
Good friend
- CFCal Fussman
... friend, friend, friend. That caused like [laughs] a conflict or crisis that set in motion your second book.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep. You just put piece... This is why I love you, Cal Fussman.
- CFCal Fussman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You're helping me see things that I've never seen before.
- CFCal Fussman
Wh- which is-
- SSSimon Sinek
This is why I'm getting excited. These are epiphanies.
- CFCal Fussman
O- okay. And so I'm starting to wonder if there, like, would need to be some moment with AI, some kind of crisis or conflict that, you know, went beyond the filter-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- CFCal Fussman
... and, and took you to a place where, like, all right, I've, I've gotta sit down, think this out, think it through, get it in a book, and put this out for the world.
- SSSimon Sinek
You just helped me see something that I never saw before this moment. I always say my work is semi-autobiographical. My work is the sum total of me finding solutions to the problems that I've had, and turns out those solutions have benefit to other people who are having similar problems, right? Turns out. And I'm very clear that Start With Why exists because I lost my passion, and it was the refining of my passion that became Start With Why. That was the solution that I found. As my life progressed, I was having trust issues with people, personally and professionally. Most started off professionally. There are very specific stories that I can tell that explain, and then simultaneously I'm spending time with folks in the military and I'm meeting these people who would give their lives for people they don't even like, right? And I wanted to understand trust for my own selfish purposes, and the solutions that I was finding as I was learning about trustI was out for dinner with my publisher, and he's like, "What are you up to?" And I was telling him this, all this amazing learning, and he said, "Let's publish that." Like, that wasn't supposed to be a book. Leaders and L- Le- Last wasn't supposed to be a book. It was my trying to solve my own problems. Infinite Game, same thing. Like, I'm an idealist, and all I got was criticism from people, especially in the business world, saying, "You gotta stop being an idealist. You need to start focusing on these things." And I always felt insecure that maybe I was doing something wrong being the idealist, and these people are smarter than me, wealthier than me, more successful than me, however you wanna define it, you know? And then I discovered The Infinite Game. I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. They're all the finite players. No, no, no, no. They're doing it wrong."
- CFCal Fussman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
"I'm onto something here."
- CFCal Fussman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
By accident. And so I, I could tell you the s- the, the things that were going on in my life that the books that I wrote man- came out of those experiences. And now I'm writing a v- a book about friendship, and somebody's like, "Why are you writing about friendship?" And the answer is, the honest answer if I'm honest, like, and I go onto this lo- you know, sort of little diatribe about, you know, depression and anxiety in the world and friendship fixes all those things. But that's not my experience. I haven't gone through a depression recently that a friend fixed, and I'm actually pretty good at making friends, and I have some remarkably close friendships. I haven't been struggling in the friendship department, and I honestly haven't known, I have no clue why I wanna write... And I've had a couple fits and starts at things that I thought I was gonna write about, and I've become obsessed with friendship, and I couldn't... I don't know the story as to why I'm writing about friendship now. But I go back to my own journey. What is it in my own life journey that I'm writing about friendship right now? It's not idle curiosity, 'cause I wouldn't be obsessed if it was just idle curiosity. I only write about things I'm obsessed about. And I realize as we're sitting here talking that every single one of those other experiences, that my crisis of purpose and loss of passion was interrupted by a friend who cared about me and said, "I'm worried about you." And that gave me permission, and it gave me the mental head space, and more important, the psychological safety. Like, my friend would, when, when, when I came clean that I was struggling, she said to me, "You are not alone." She would send me texts that said, "You're not alone," as I went on the journey of trying to rediscover my passion. And it was a friend's intervention that became Start With Why. It was the impetus. And then Leaders Eat Last, right? What I realized, it was, that was the place where I thought I had a friend, and I realized it wasn't a friend. It was somebody working me for access and all of this stuff, that it gave me a crisis of friendship, and I retreated and didn't know who my friends were. And it was the fear of losing friendships and not knowing how to trust, who to trust, what trust even is, and would I even be able to ever make a friend again? That became Leaders Eat Last. And it was The Infinite Game, the insecurity I had around some of other, some of my other friends who were doing things in a way, and they were giving me advice that just made me feel more and more and more insecure, and yet they're supposed to be my friends. What is it inside me that I'm struggling to even relate to my own friends anymore 'cause I feel inse- so insecure when I'm around my own friends? That became The Infinite Game. It gave me a huge boost of confidence, right? Knowing that there's this other way of seeing the world called the infinite mindset. And I'm realizing the common thread in all of my work was a friend there to support me, was a friend there to hold me up. Even, I talk about, I tell the story of Leaders Eat Last nearly didn't happen. I, it was so difficult to write that I actually got to the point of giving up, and it was in that trying to e- extract myself from the project, and I was preparing to quit, that I called a friend, and that friend basically said, "I got you." And that was all I needed to go back and finish that excruciatingly difficult book. And all of these situations, I'm realizing what m- what helped me get through them all was a friend standing beside me in every single case. And I know who those people are. It's Jen. It's Johnny Quest. It's Johnny Bravo. It's Kendra. Like, I know who all those people are every step along the way. And that's what I realize I'm writing about friendship now because it's my... Oh, it's gonna bring me to tears. It's my, it's my... It's a letter of gratitude. I'm writing this book to say thank you, and I think the best way I can say thank you to my friends is, in typical Simon fashion, make it an act of service, which is if I write down what I've learned about great friends so that hopefully I can give something to other people so they can have the kinds of friendships and support that I've had my whole life. That's why I'm writing about friends. I'm just realizing it right now. It's just, it's just an extended love letter. And I'm just gonna make that love letter available to everybody in the world.
- CFCal Fussman
I'm happy to be the first to read it. [laughs] It's-
- SSSimon Sinek
This is why I wanted you to take over my podcast.
- CFCal Fussman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You, you are able to get things out of me. I don't know how you do it, but you are able to get things out of me, and I have, I have realizations. And it's not like you, you and I have only met w- and it's, let's be clear. This is the second time we've ever met-
- CFCal Fussman
The second time
- SSSimon Sinek
... in six years.
- CFCal Fussman
Yes. That's correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
The first time is when I came on your podcast. The second time is right now.
Episode duration: 51:18
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