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Simon SinekSimon Sinek

Who Are You, Really? with journalist Maria Shriver | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

We often define ourselves by what we do or who we are to other people. But at our core, who we are is often something much deeper, and sometimes wildly different, from the version that the world sees—or projects onto you. Maria Shriver was born into the legendary Kennedy and Shriver families, arriving with a script already written for her—an identity shaped by legacy and expectation. From the start, the world had ideas about who she should be. But after decades as a journalist, years as California’s First Lady, and raising four amazing kids, Maria has been on a lifelong journey to peel back the layers and ask Who am I now?—and answer it for herself. Maria also happens to be my best friend. We talked about how we became each other’s “8-minute friends,” the quiet questions that shape us, and her beautiful new book of poetry—which she reads from in this episode. It’s all about identity, self-reflection, and finding your voice in a world that keeps trying to define it for you. This…is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Maria Shriver, check out: her book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/i-am-maria-my-poems-and-reflections-on-heartbreak-healing-and-hope-maria-shriver/21881575 http://mariashriver.com/ ⏰ Timestamps 0:00 Who is Maria Shriver? 1:16 The unlikely friendship of Maria and Simon 5:36 How to be a Kennedy, Shriver, and Schwarzenegger 10:31 What is identity? 17:24 Tragedies that shaped Maria 21:25 8-minute friends 26:57 Creating containers of safety 35:07 Work is not your home 38:14 Maria reads her poetry + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Simon SinekhostMaria Shriverguest
Apr 8, 202544mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:16

    Who is Maria Shriver?

    1. SS

      You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much

    2. MS

      No, we text

    3. SS

      But-

    4. MS

      But you don't ever pick up the phone. That cat picture comes up, and I call, and like-

    5. SS

      I, I-

    6. MS

      ... there's the cat

    7. SS

      It's because, it's not, it's not personal, it's because my phone-

    8. MS

      I know that

    9. SS

      ... is always on do not disturb, but when I see you called, it always call you back

    10. MS

      Then you call back [laughs]

    11. SS

      [laughs] We all know people with big personalities, but we would rarely call them kind. We also know people with small personalities, and they are usually the kindest. But every now and then, there's a big personality, a huge personality that shows up that just exudes kindness and warmth. And one of those people is Maria Shriver. I had the opportunity to sit down with Maria to talk about her new book, I Am Maria. Maria is my best friend, and to hear her talk about the journey she is on to reclaim her own identity is nothing short of inspiring. And that little question, "I am," and what it yields, turns out has great value to all of us to find out who we really are and why we love ourselves. I am Simon, and this is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

  2. 1:16 – 5:36

    The unlikely friendship of Maria and Simon

    1. SS

      So, uh, yours and my friendship, I think most people, including me, would not have predicted. We met kind of by accident

    2. MS

      Right

    3. SS

      Right?

    4. MS

      Uh-huh

    5. SS

      I don't know how you tell the story, but I can, I know the, the, so the, you reached out to me-

    6. MS

      Uh-huh

    7. SS

      ... many years ago

    8. MS

      Right

    9. SS

      And I don't know, as to this day, I, I've never asked you how you got my email, but you reached out to me [laughs]

    10. MS

      [laughs]

    11. SS

      Out of the blue [laughs] and said, "My son Patrick is an y- a young entrepreneur."

    12. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      "You know, if you're ever in LA, would you like to meet him?" And I said, "Of course." And I came to LA, and I met Patrick

    14. MS

      Right

    15. SS

      And he and I had a lovely time. When I got back to New York, you sent me a lovely email saying thank you, and I wrote back and saying, "The pleasure was all mine." And if, who Patrick is is any, uh, statement about what kind of mother you are, you must be an amazing human being because he's an amazing kid

    16. MS

      Thank you

    17. SS

      I said, "I would love to meet you."

    18. MS

      Uh-huh

    19. SS

      "So next time in LA, I'll come out and see you." And I come back to LA on work, for work, and you said, "Come for dinner on Sunday." And I thought it would be you, me, and Patrick having dinner at your house. That's what I thought. [laughs] I walk into the house, and there's some folks getting dinner ready, and you're not around

    20. MS

      Yeah, that's kinda normal

    21. SS

      That's kinda normal. And so I'm, I'm stranger in a strange land, and I said, "Is Maria here?"

    22. MS

      Right

    23. SS

      And they said, "She's downstairs." And I said, "Where's downstairs?" [laughs] I went down, and sitting on the couch was Chris Pratt. And I, I had no idea he was your son-in-law at the time

    24. MS

      Uh-huh

    25. SS

      So I'm like, "Okay. Hi." He's like, "Hi, I'm Chris." You know? [laughs]

    26. MS

      Yeah

    27. SS

      I'm like, "Hi, I'm Simon. Where's Maria?"

    28. MS

      [laughs]

    29. SS

      Anyway, long story short, um, it was the start of what became now an amazing friendship, and you're, you're my best friend. If I say one of my best friends, I get in trouble. Um, you're my best friend, and, um, and it is a joy to have you here talking to you very formally. [laughs]

    30. MS

      [laughs]

  3. 5:36 – 10:31

    How to be a Kennedy, Shriver, and Schwarzenegger

    1. SS

      you grew up this, in an insane, for you, it was normal as a little kid. You didn't know any different

    2. MS

      Right, right

    3. SS

      But, like, visiting Uncle Jack at the White House as what? An eight-year-old, nine-year-old-

    4. MS

      Mm-hmm

    5. SS

      ... you know, this sort of larger than life, the Kennedy Shriver family

    6. MS

      Right

    7. SS

      As you became older and you started to realize that your life is not like everybody else's life, how did you learn to manage that? And more importantly, kids growing up now in the Kennedy Shriver clan, then now you add a Schwarzenegger to it, how did you keep them grounded? I'm so curious because I've met a lot of kids of people-

    8. MS

      Yeah

    9. SS

      ... who've grown up in, in different ways, and it'sMaybe they get lucky with one of the kids [laughs] staying grounded. But not all the kids.

    10. MS

      I'll probably take it from kind of my own creation of my own kids and go backwards. So what I, you know, wanted to do when I started a family was to make sure that the kids that Arnold and I had felt like they were a priority, felt that they were loved for who they were, not for what they did, and that they had a sense of home, a sense of calm, a sense of peace, that they understood, um, that they were coming into a privileged, uh, home, but that they're, part of that was also that I and their dad expected them to be of service somehow in the world. Those were my goals. And that they have manners and they be kind. And I really wanted them, being a priority and feeling loved was the most important thing to me because I had felt like I was part of this, you know, group of, like, 27 first cousins and I, I felt like, you know, I was always a couple rows back. Like, I just, it wasn't really clear. You know, I knew my uncles were in the front row and everything was geared around them, and we were all part of, uh, a larger story, but I didn't feel like, you know, a priority. And I felt like, oh, the love was attached to what you do. This is not a complaint to my parents. I adore my parents. I love my parents. But it's the way they were raised, and it was the way I was raised, and I wanted to break that pattern. So I wanted the house not to be a place where there were fundraisers and, um, political things. I wanted it to be a place of home. I wanted them to understand that their names and who they were was more important than the Kennedys, the Schwarzeneggers, the Shrivers, and all of that, and I wanted to talk to them at length about that.

    11. SS

      Mm.

    12. MS

      Uh, about what those legacies were. Uh, they were not theirs to work, you know, uphold for the rest of their life-

    13. SS

      Mm

    14. MS

      ... if they didn't want to, that there was good things and bad things about all of them, uh, and that, you know, that they were free-

    15. SS

      Mm

    16. MS

      ... to depart from then in whatever way they wanted. I also did not feel that.

    17. SS

      Mm.

    18. MS

      I think it's also different when someone is making a legacy versus inheriting a legacy.

    19. SS

      Is this a conversation that you and Arnold had when you first got pregnant with, with Katherine? You're like, "Look, look-"

    20. MS

      Well, I think Arnold, Arnold was creating his legacy. He had not ever grown up in a legacy, right? And so that was something that I came-

    21. SS

      Mm-hmm

    22. MS

      ... to the union with. I came with, like, look at, these kids are gonna be dealing with me, the Kennedys, and you.

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MS

      He didn't have an experience with that.

    25. SS

      Mm.

    26. MS

      So, uh, he was like, "Okay, well, you deal with that," you know, kinda thing. And-

    27. SS

      But you were very prescriptive from the moment you got pregnant.

    28. MS

      I was very, yes. I was very, like, I wanted these things for them.

    29. SS

      Mm.

    30. MS

      You know, I wanted them to feel like they were their own people. I didn't want them to feel weighed down by it. I didn't want them to walk out the door and think every person was a vote. Like, I'd walk with my grandmother-

  4. 10:31 – 17:24

    What is identity?

    1. SS

      Well, I think what you're touching on is every single one of us at some point in our lives, and sometimes multiple times, will struggle with our identities.

    2. MS

      Correct.

    3. SS

      And it, it's not unique to s- somebody who's grown up like you have.

    4. MS

      Right.

    5. SS

      You know, people will confuse their identities with their job title.

    6. MS

      Correct.

    7. SS

      I am a CEO.

    8. MS

      Right.

    9. SS

      Or their, or their career. I am a lawyer. Like, that's who I am.

    10. MS

      Correct.

    11. SS

      No, no, it's what you do.

    12. MS

      Right.

    13. SS

      Um, or it's the position you have. And I've seen it, you've seen it many times, which is y- very successful people, when they move on or they change jobs, they literally will suffer an identity crisis-

    14. MS

      Mm

    15. SS

      ... because for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, their whole identity be- is entwined with a job or a position that when that job or position no longer exists, it's, it, depression or a collapse or strange things start to happen.

    16. MS

      Yeah.

    17. SS

      And so, uh, you know, um, but even beyond I am a mother, I hear s- people say that.

    18. MS

      Right.

    19. SS

      "Well, who, tell me who you are." "Well, I'm a mother" or, "I'm a father." But even that's not an identity.

    20. MS

      Well, I think, but i- I think society puts a lot of pressure on you to respond in that way. People ask you, like, I went to a, a party the other night with my daughter, and everyone, first question to her every single time was, uh, "Tell me what you do. Tell me what you do. What is your interest? What do you do?" And not who you are-

    21. SS

      Mm

    22. MS

      ... and not even, like, what your name is. Tell me what you do. And, um, I think, you know, this book, I called it I Am Maria-

    23. SS

      Yeah

    24. MS

      ... because I grew up being asked all the time, "Which Kennedy are you?" Uh, that was just, you know, the, the question I got more than any single other question. "Which Kennedy are you?"

    25. SS

      Yeah.

    26. MS

      And I still get it today, like, if I'm walking through the airport or, you know, somebody'll say, "You're a Kennedy, right?"

    27. SS

      Yeah.

    28. MS

      And I used to just be like, "No, I'm not. I'm Maria." And, uh, they would be like, "But you're a Kennedy," even as an adult. And now I just go, "Yeah, I'm a Kennedy. Yeah."

    29. SS

      Yeah.

    30. MS

      It's like [laughs] I'm in, in my 60s, right? So.

  5. 17:24 – 21:25

    Tragedies that shaped Maria

    1. MS

      do.

    2. SS

      Did you have to learn to be vulnerable? Because-

    3. MS

      Oh, yeah. [laughs] Oh, yeah

    4. SS

      ... like, and is it, like-

    5. MS

      Oh, yeah, that's-

    6. SS

      ... was it like the past five years, the past 10 years, the past 20? Like, I mean, it's con-

    7. MS

      Probably the-

    8. SS

      I, I know it's a journey, but, like, th- there has to have been a point where something clicked.

    9. MS

      Well, I think certainly, you know, kind of my divorce, uh, I think, you know, landed me on the floor, and I had to kinda go like, "Whoa, you know, what is this?" And I wanna get up from this, but I'm gonna get up differently.

    10. SS

      Mm.

    11. MS

      And I think that has certainly, you know, set me off onto a different path. I think it really probably began, uh, way before that with my mother's death. Um, my-

    12. SS

      How old were you when she died?

    13. MS

      I was in my 50s.

    14. SS

      Mm.

    15. MS

      So she died, and, but that was something I had feared my whole life, 'cause she'd been sick a lot, but she was my, um, you know, anchor. She was my everything, and it was something that I thought, like, "I'll never be able to survive my mother's death." And I think when she died, it was a soul-shifting-... experience for me. It was an identity-shifting experience for me, and it was quickly followed by my father's death, by the end of my marriage, by finding a new home, and then a search for a new identity.

    16. SS

      That, that all happened within a-

    17. MS

      It all happened within-

    18. SS

      ... within a reasonable-

    19. MS

      ... two years

    20. SS

      Oh, wow.

    21. MS

      And then, you know, then it's been all of these many years later.

    22. SS

      Yeah.

    23. MS

      Yeah, my mother died. Two weeks later, my uncle died. Two years later, my father died, and a couple months after that I got separated, and I had been First Lady and that ended. So it was a rapid succession of, uh, really groundbreaking change underneath my feet. And I think, you know, for me to step back and go, "Okay, wait a second now. I need to emerge from this. I need to rise from this." I always talk about rising above the noise. I need to rise and I'm going to rise differently.

    24. SS

      Mm.

    25. MS

      I have to rise differently.

    26. SS

      Mm.

    27. MS

      I have to break through, as I write in the book, the denial-

    28. SS

      Mm

    29. MS

      ... uh, that I had had since I was a child. I had to break through the identities that I had kind of hid behind, you know, and that had given me cover, that had given me protection, and I now knew I was on my own, 100% on my own. So who was that person? Uh, she wasn't the First Lady anymore. Was I still a journalist? I don't know. What was I?

    30. SS

      Mm.

  6. 21:25 – 26:57

    8-minute friends

    1. MS

      Yeah. At the end of the day, what, jobs come and go. But if we work on our friendships, if we laugh with our friends, if we love our friends, if we show up for our friends-

    2. SS

      Yeah

    3. MS

      ... if we give them the eight minutes in those moments of like, "I need, I need you," on the phone, "Are you there?" Right? Those are the, um, things that are gonna be with us till the end.

    4. SS

      So-

    5. MS

      That's what's important

    6. SS

      ... and for those who may know of that video that I made where I talked about the eight minutes-

    7. MS

      Yeah

    8. SS

      ... it was you and me. It was-

    9. MS

      Right

    10. SS

      ... you and me. That was our experience-

    11. MS

      Mm

    12. SS

      ... um, where, um, I asked you how you were, and you said, "I'm better now." And I said, "What do you mean you're better now?" And you're like, "I've had a horrible week." I'm like, "Well, why didn't you call me?" And you're like, "I did." And I look at my texts and it says, "You fi- you there? What are you doing? What are..." I'm like-

    13. MS

      Yeah

    14. SS

      ... and it was that, you, you were the one who read the article that said, "All a friend needs is eight minutes."

    15. MS

      And so now if we need each other, I like-

    16. SS

      Yeah

    17. MS

      ... "Do you have eight minutes?"

    18. SS

      We have eight mi- "Do you have eight minutes?"

    19. MS

      "Do you have eight mi-"

    20. SS

      You were the OG-

    21. MS

      Yeah

    22. SS

      ... for that, for that experience, yeah.

    23. MS

      You know, you were saying actually last night that you forget to call people, you forget to check in, that that happens with your parents.

    24. SS

      Mm.

    25. MS

      And I th- I went to bed thinking, "Well, that's not my experience with you, actually." You do check in. You do call. You do go like, "I'm driving by, I want to..." You sometimes check in and I ha- you walk in and I haven't even invited you. You're like in the pantry and I'm like, "Simon, what are you doing?" He's like, "I came in to get a mosh pit. I came in to get..." I'm like, "What? What?" [laughs] But you, you are like-

    26. SS

      That happened once. [laughs]

    27. MS

      [laughs]

    28. SS

      You came downstairs and I was in the pantry.

    29. MS

      I am in the pantry.

    30. SS

      That is true. [laughs]

  7. 26:57 – 35:07

    Creating containers of safety

    1. SS

      think the, the thing that I'm walking away from here, which is this idea of creating the container-

    2. MS

      Yeah

    3. SS

      ... which is, which is I think we have fun with our friends.

    4. MS

      Mm.

    5. SS

      And some-

    6. MS

      I love that way you put that, the container.

    7. SS

      The container.

    8. MS

      Yeah.

    9. SS

      Because c-

    10. MS

      I call it home, uh-

    11. SS

      Yeah

    12. MS

      ... for me.

    13. SS

      And, but the create, cr- creating a container actually requires work. And you touched upon it before, which is people prioritize work over their friends.

    14. MS

      Right.

    15. SS

      People think their relationships are sometimes more important than their friends. What I'm learning is that you can't get through this difficult thing called work without a friend.

    16. MS

      Right.

    17. SS

      Like, on the worst days, you better have a friend. And even your relationships, like relationships sometimes are a struggle.

    18. MS

      Mm.

    19. SS

      And the way you get through relationships and arguments with your, with your romantic partner is if you have a friend.

    20. MS

      Exactly.

    21. SS

      Like, the friend is the foundation of the success of all those other things. And if you don't have a friend that can create, who knows how to create safe containers for you to have those very uncomfortable, difficult conversations of insecurity-

    22. MS

      Mm, mm

    23. SS

      ... fear, self-doubt, whether it's professional or personal, then the relationships, romantic relationships and work relationships are more likely to falter. There's so many, so much talk and so much written about how to s- be productive at work.

    24. MS

      Right.

    25. SS

      And how to have a successful marriage and how to find your partner of love, and yet we don't learn how to create a container for our friends to just relax and be themselves, and being your true self. I actually was thinking about this recently, which is the idea that we have fully authentic and fully our true selves in the out, in the outside world, and that's actually not allowed.

    26. MS

      Mm.

    27. SS

      'Cause if everybody was fully themselves all the time, sort of things wouldn't work, um, because there'd be no norms or standards. Like, like if I go for a job interview and I'm an-

    28. MS

      Mm

    29. SS

      ... entry level, you know, well, my f- my true self is I like to wear, I like to dress like a surfer. It's how I feel. No, no, no, no. Show respect for the place you're going to.

    30. MS

      Yeah.

  8. 35:07 – 38:14

    Work is not your home

    1. MS

      Why does everybody tell us we're here to be on the cover of Forbes? Why does everybody tell us we're here to be the CEO and have no time for our family or our friends? Why does the world tell us to run around like a lunatic and at the expense of everything that's important? Why does the world or society or our culture or the press tell us it's this when it's this?

    2. SS

      Yeah. We're all obsessed with productivity and metrics and measuring and sleep apps, and, and, and-

    3. MS

      And this goes like that, right?

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. MS

      I've been fired from a job, and then you're sitting there going like, "What? What? What? I thought that was my, quote, 'home.'"

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      I remember when I was fired from the CBS Morning News. I was the anchor with Forrest Sawyer, and, and the, the president of the news division fired all of us overnight, and I was like, "Wait, what?" And he's like, "The show's gone. I'm moving it to the entertainment division out of the news division. You all can go look for other jobs, and you can stay here if you want and go work in another division." And I was just like, "But this is my home."

    8. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MS

      They're like, "It's not your home." And I'm like, "It's not?" They're like, "No." And I was like, "Oh. Oh, okay. Wow, I made a big mistake. I thought this job was my home."

    10. SS

      Yeah.

    11. MS

      Mm-mm. So I picked up my bags, walked out the revolving door at CBS News and said, "I'm never coming home again." [laughs]

    12. SS

      [laughs]

    13. MS

      "I'm... So there." But, and then I walked down the street and went over to NBC News, right? But I didn't make the same mistake at NBC News that I made at CBS News. I didn't think it w- I was gonna go and get a new home.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. MS

      I thought I was gonna get a new job. Hopefully, I'd meet some people that could make me feel like I'd ha- and I have. I've made relationships there outside of the building so that when they fire me or tell me, like when I became First Lady and they called me and said, "You're out," and I'm like, "Wait a minute. What?" They're like, "You can't work here anymore if you have a husband who's a governor. It's a conflict of interest. Bye bye."I didn't have the same meltdown that I had when I was at CBS 'cause I knew I wasn't being kicked out of my home. I was losing a job

    16. SS

      And it goes back to identity again, right? Because-

    17. MS

      Yeah

    18. SS

      ... when we lose our jobs, we think they're taking away our identity.

    19. MS

      Well, they're taking away our finances. They're taking away-

    20. SS

      They're taking away stability. Yeah

    21. MS

      ... they're taking away stability.

    22. SS

      Yeah.

    23. MS

      They're taking away identity.

    24. SS

      It's still traumatic.

    25. MS

      Oh, still, and they're taking away where you go every day.

    26. SS

      Yeah.

    27. MS

      They're taking away-

    28. SS

      They're, take away routine

    29. MS

      ... everything.

    30. SS

      Mm-hmm.

  9. 38:14 – 44:01

    Maria reads her poetry

    1. SS

      Yeah. Do you have a favorite poem in here?

    2. MS

      That's a good question. No. I, I think for me, maybe Small w- is a-

    3. SS

      I read that one

    4. MS

      ... it's in the beginning, is that I, I th- think another thing that society does to us is tells us-

    5. SS

      Fair enough

    6. MS

      ... you're small, you're big, you're a winner, you're a loser. It-

    7. SS

      Do you wanna read it?

    8. MS

      ... it p- puts these, um, okay.

    9. SS

      It's good. I read it.

    10. MS

      It's good? You read it? Okay.

    11. SS

      It's gonna just sound like you speaking.

    12. MS

      [laughs] I feel so small, I always have. So small in a house where everything was so big. So small that I got lost. Did you notice that I was small? Did you notice I couldn't reach? Did you notice I was scared? No, of course you didn't. Your door was shut. Your eyes were closed. Your heart, I couldn't find it, couldn't touch it, couldn't reach it. It too was lost, deeply buried in a dark place. I couldn't reach it. I tried all different ways to grow big. Big was what you noticed. Big was what you liked. Big was what I tried to be. I grew up, I grew out, I tried on big, but it never fit. Big was an illusion. Big enough was unattainable. I was too small to be big enough. There were so many bigs in my house, so I left. I found another place to try on big, but I was small there, too. I couldn't reach the lights. I couldn't touch what I wanted to touch, and so I gave up. I made peace with being small. I gave up trying to be big. I decided it hurt too much. I changed my mind about big, and when I did, I found your big heart in that small little room you hid in. My big heart loves your small little self. I wish you'd known how big you already were. When I read this, I think about my mom, um, who was so big to me, but she didn't realize how big she was because she was surrounded by brothers who society told her were bigger than her.

    13. SS

      Mm.

    14. MS

      And who were so big.

    15. SS

      The JFK, RFK. Yeah.

    16. MS

      Yeah. It was just, they were so big that everybody was looking up here, so she couldn't see down here, right?

    17. SS

      Mm.

    18. MS

      And she couldn't see in here-

    19. SS

      Mm

    20. MS

      ... because she was trying to reach that, compete with that. I, when I think of my mother now, I have so much empathy for her, and I have so much, um, not sadness, but really empathy for how hard she worked and how unseen she was.

    21. SS

      Mm.

    22. MS

      And, um, that I was not able to really talk to her about her heartbreak or her healing or her way home because she had never been granted the time to have those conversations. She was in such a hurry to be big-

    23. SS

      Mm

    24. MS

      ... um, that I've had those conversations with her now in death-

    25. SS

      Mm

    26. MS

      ... actually, and, um, that she herself, you know, we all have this small little child inside of all of us. And so today I try to think about the little girl-

    27. SS

      Mm

    28. MS

      ... that lived in my mother, how small she was and how beautiful she was and what she was like as the little girl, and I say to her, "I see you now, Mommy. I see you, and you're enough. You're so big to me."

    29. SS

      Mm.

    30. MS

      And a thing I've learned in life is that people who are, society say are so big so often don't feel [laughs] that at all. And so I think it's, you know, I don't try to be big anymore.

Episode duration: 44:04

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