Why Young People Don't Have 'The Hunger' for Work (And What Leaders Need to Hear) | Dr. Eliza Filby

Simon Sinek 0:00 Young people come into your office and be like, "Give me a raise and you'll see what I can do."

Dr. Eliza Filby 0:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 0:04 And older generations are like, "Pay you before you do it? What?"

Dr. Eliza Filby 0:10 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 0:10 But I think they have it right. Because there's no guarantee that they're gonna have a job by the end of the year because of layoffs-

Dr. Eliza Filby 0:15 The biggest question that leaders need to ask themselves is h- what am I offering in the age of uncertainty? If I can't offer stability, if I can't offer you that life script, what is it that leaders are offering their people?

Simon Sinek 0:31 Are you a Boomer? Millennial? Gen Z? Wait, where's Gen X? Why did you leave out Gen X? Gen X always gets left out. Regardless of which generation you're from, we all complain about each other. I mean, they really are entitled. Or are they?

Dr. Eliza Filby 0:47 Do you think we live in an inheritocracy?

Simon Sinek 0:49 My guest, Dr. Eliza Filby, encourages us before we complain to consider through what lens does each generation see the world. Eliza is a generational historian in a world that has more generations working alongside each other than at any other point in history. In her bestselling book, Inheritocracy, Eliza challenges the idea that we even live in a meritocracy anymore, and what that means for every generation trying to get ahead. Eliza helped me see connections I never saw before-

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:19 12

Simon Sinek 1:19 ... what?

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:20 12

Simon Sinek 1:20 ... and realize just how much more difficult the world will be for our younger generations, and how the rest of us are gonna get ahead, too. Maybe, just maybe, we have to learn to win together. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 1:42 I was forced to be interested in generations. Like, I started talking about generations and generational differences at work-

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:49 Mm

Simon Sinek 1:50 ... not because I had a particular hankering, but because the single most common question I used to get, literally any size audience, whether it was public or private, was, "How do we lead Millennials?"

Dr. Eliza Filby 2:01 Yes.

Simon Sinek 2:01 And this was a bunch of years ago. You have sort of made a career out of understanding generations. H- how does somebody-

Dr. Eliza Filby 2:08 Yes

Simon Sinek 2:08 ... like wake up in the morning and be like, "You know, I wanna be a fireman. I wanna be, you know-"

Dr. Eliza Filby 2:13 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 2:13 "... I wanna be a generational expert." Like, how did you, like, where did that come from? [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 2:18 So, so I've invented a job title that didn't previously exist, and I have always been interested in change and how one is defined by time. There's lots of things that make us, us. You know, it's gender, it's, you know, racial identity, it's sexuality, it's hobbies. There's all sorts of things that make up our identity, but the time at which you enter the world-

Simon Sinek 2:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 2:45 ... is really important, too. And I, you know, was an academic and studied history, became a, a historian, taught at universities across the world, and found that there was a real disconnect between academic history-

Simon Sinek 3:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:02 ... right, the study of time-

Simon Sinek 3:04 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:05 ... and kings and queens and all, all those wonderful things, and actually sort of how people experience time. It was sort of me understanding my own family-

Simon Sinek 3:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:16 ... and how when we talk about generations, that being a category of analysis that actually historians really poo-poo and attack, but actually within the family makes total sense.

Simon Sinek 3:27 Well, I mean, it's, it's clearly-

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:27 It is the unit of time

Simon Sinek 3:28 ... it's clearly defined.

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:29 Right.

Simon Sinek 3:29 Grandparents-

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:30 Right

Simon Sinek 3:30 ... parents, me.

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:31 Exactly. So actually, generational analysis was something that as someone who came from a family who lived in, grew up in a multi-generational household, my father had, and his family had lived in the same house for 100 years. My family was from the same area for over 250 years. The sense of generational identity was so strong within me.

Simon Sinek 3:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 3:55 And I was like, actually, I think there's some real sort of gaps missing in the analysis-

Simon Sinek 4:01 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 4:02 ... within the academic study of generations, but then on the societal level as well. It's full of stereotypes, it's full of generalizations, it's sort of lazy labels. You know, Gen Z are entitled. You know, Millennials used to be entitled, and then we had Gen Z. Gen X used to be entitled, they were called slackers, you know? Boomers were sort of defined as the, the first me, me generation. So there's lots of lazy generalizations, but actually what I'm really in- sort of interested in is how we're shaped by time.

Simon Sinek 4:31 So let's, let's back up here. Let's put a few ground rules

Simon Sinek 4:34 in. When I studied social anthropology, um, we were taught that generations were about 20 years, and they're fuzzy, right?

Dr. Eliza Filby 4:42 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:43 And-

Dr. Eliza Filby 4:43 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 4:43 ... and so it was relatively clearly defined. You know, if you start with the Greatest Generation, the generation that lived through the Second World War-

Dr. Eliza Filby 4:49 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 4:50 ... then they came back from war and all got busy, and there was the baby boom.

Dr. Eliza Filby 4:55 They got seriously busy, yep.

Simon Sinek 4:56 So a generation starting to be born around 1945-ish.

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:00 Yep.

Simon Sinek 5:01 And so that lasted about 20 years, and then 19, mid-1960s-ish-

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:06 Gen X

Simon Sinek 5:07 ... you get Gen X. That's another 20 years.

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:09 Yep.

Simon Sinek 5:10 Then you get Gen Y or Millennials, but for s- but what I'm struggling with, and this is where I need your help, which is that clear definition of approximately 20 years marked by significant events.

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:21 Mm.

Simon Sinek 5:21 I don't know what happens before-

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:22 Mm

Simon Sinek 5:22 ... the, the, the Greatest Generation, quite frankly. We sort of start generations-

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:26 Mm

Simon Sinek 5:26 ... you know, after World War II. [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:29 And again, you could be leading edge, trailing edge, in the middle.

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:31 Yep.

Simon Sinek 5:32 But it, it bracketed us, and it doesn't mean that everybody's personality is the same. But for some reason now, generations are becoming, like, five years long, which-

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:39 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 5:40 ... as an anthropologist, that doesn't sound right to me-

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 5:42 ... that every time that something happens in the world, you don't suddenly have a new generation. There's starting to be too many of them.

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:47 Right, so you've got Gen Z, and now you've got Gen Alpha, and actually you've got Gen Beta. You know, it's, it's, it's endless, and they're truncating-

Simon Sinek 5:54 They're getting smaller and smaller and smaller

Dr. Eliza Filby 5:56 ... and then we're getting smaller and smaller. And I think the key here is that it's, it's an art, not a science. We can't even agree.When, you know, Millennials start. But let me be very clear about-

Simon Sinek 6:06 All right

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:06 ... what I think it is.

Simon Sinek 6:07 Okay.

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:08 Right?

Simon Sinek 6:08 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:09 As a woman who's, you know, a mother-

Simon Sinek 6:12 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:12 ... what we're talking about is essentially how generations tend to form within families, actually, and mirroring that within sort of the categorization within society. And by and large, actually, women are having babies later, so actually we're seeing the generations actually, they should be becoming-

Simon Sinek 6:31 Longer

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:31 ... but longer and longer. But what you're talking about is trying to categorize society s- by putting these kind of fixed sort of date points.

Simon Sinek 6:41 I'm okay with fuzzy points, but it's feels like it's starting to get to the point where generation-

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:48 Yeah

Simon Sinek 6:48 ... quote, unquote, as a-

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:49 Yeah

Simon Sinek 6:49 ... as a label-

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:50 Right

Simon Sinek 6:51 ... that is starting to be used as, um... How do I put it nicely?

Dr. Eliza Filby 6:58 [laughs] You can put it how you think.

Simon Sinek 6:58 Uh, it's, it's becoming part of identity politics, where the, the-

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:04 Yeah

Simon Sinek 7:04 ... people are adding nuances to their generations, their generational names-

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:07 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 7:08 ... how many generations there are, that they're becoming more and more and more of them in smaller and smaller periods of time, and it seems to be part of me standing out from everybody else, where that's not what the original intention was. The intention was to try and understand the personalities shaped by people who went through significant major events together.

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:28 Yes, and there's lots I could say. The first thing I would say is that-

Simon Sinek 7:31 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:31 ... it's a response to the fear of change. I think we, by the way-

Simon Sinek 7:35 A- adding more things, you mean?

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:37 No, sort of fragmenting-

Simon Sinek 7:39 Ah

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:39 ... those big generational cohorts and say, "Actually, uh, I'm, I'm a geriatric Millennial. I, I..." or, "I'm a Xennial." There's so many kind of like subcultures within the generations. I think it's partly a fear of like we're living in this period of accelerated change.

Simon Sinek 7:53 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 7:53 I'd contest that, by the way, but people certainly feel it. I think we also are living in an era of hyper-individualism, so this idea of, "You can't just bracket me by age. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm a subgroup within that big group defined by age." Like, and I think that, that is certainly there. I think also tech is now so defining in our lives-

Simon Sinek 8:16 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:16 ... is did you grow up with a landline phone?

Simon Sinek 8:18 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:18 Did you grow up with a flip phone?

Simon Sinek 8:20 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:20 At what age did you, did you get your first social media account?

Simon Sinek 8:22 Well, in, in, instead of war or famine-

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:25 Right

Simon Sinek 8:25 ... or depression or, you know-

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:27 Or major political events

Simon Sinek 8:28 ... or major political events.

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:29 It's like, where were you at with that technological-

Simon Sinek 8:31 When, when that technology w-

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:33 Right

Simon Sinek 8:33 ... entered the world-

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:34 Right

Simon Sinek 8:34 ... was that your... But, but by the way, that's fair.

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:37 And, and no, but the problem-

Simon Sinek 8:38 That's fair. That's a legit-

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:38 ... is is because technology is changing so fast, you're getting these micro-generations within a bigger generational cohort.

Simon Sinek 8:43 Mm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 8:43 Right? You talked about the Greatest Generation, and they, or, you know, going through that shared collective experience of war. I think one of the things that we don't talk about enough is the fragmentation of shared collective experiences. There's no shared media anymore. There's no shared political culture anymore. There's no shared music culture anymore in the same way that there was particularly for Boomers, Xers, and Millennials, okay?

Simon Sinek 9:08 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:08 Even when we, we talk about n- those labels, baby boom, there wasn't a global baby boom. You know, there's not a global baby boom culture. But actually Gen Z, you can start to talk about this generation that's had this hyper-individualized internet-

Simon Sinek 9:23 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:24 ... but also these key global events. So you've got this kind of slight tension between Gen Z having COVID as a global experience, climate change as a global cause, but actually not having shared moments, shared political culture in the same way that Boomers certainly did.

Simon Sinek 9:41 This is very, very interesting. Because we, quote, unquote, "went through something together," you know, my grandparents-

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:46 Mm

Simon Sinek 9:46 ... and their friends and their f-

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:48 Right

Simon Sinek 9:48 ... you know, they were always talking about the war.

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:50 You know?

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:51 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:51 And because it was defining of their youth.

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:53 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 9:54 You know, my, my grandmother's 20s were defined by the war.

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:58 Yep.

Simon Sinek 9:58 You know, my grandfather-

Dr. Eliza Filby 9:59 Same

Simon Sinek 9:59 ... got married in his uniform.

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:01 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:02 You know? And their friends would come over, and they would, uh, the war invariably would come up.

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:07 Mm, mm.

Simon Sinek 10:07 How can it not?

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:09 And then as you said, the shared experience of the Boomers, the shared experience of the Gen Xers, and so it makes sense why there's gonna be these fragmented generational delineations-

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:18 Mm, mm, mm

Simon Sinek 10:18 ... because the experiences aren't universally shared.

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:21 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:21 And so we're looking for anything that combines us or makes us have some sort of-

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 10:26 ... shared experience.

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:27 Completely.

Simon Sinek 10:27 But it's, it's both, it's both understandable but also quite tragic at the same time, you know, because there seems to be a detribification-

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:35 Yeah

Simon Sinek 10:35 ... of us as a people.

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:37 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:37 Like, what does national identity mean anymore if the nation didn't go through something? What is national identity anymore if we're not all watching the same things on television, we don't have all the same cultural references? Whether you like them or not, the cultural references are the same.

Dr. Eliza Filby 10:51 Right, and, and Benedict Anderson's book called Imagine Communities, why he emphasizes the rise of the newspaper as so formative, um, in the alignment of the rise of nationhood was that sense of shared information generates a shared identity and a shared sort of unity over what the nation is, what it stands for, and what we seek to protect. And so, uh, one of the things that you are seeing with the fragmentation of information-

Simon Sinek 11:19 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 11:19 ... and we're about to see that accelerated with AI, is no one has a shared truth, for sure. No one has a s- a shared understanding of what the nation even is.

Simon Sinek 11:30 This is so good.

Dr. Eliza Filby 11:30 So you're seeing the decline of shared values, shared definitions, shared sense of trust and truth, but also the disintegration of trust at a, at an institutional level and, as I say, um, in various sort of arenas, whether it's the church, whether it's the workplace, whether it's, you know, any form of associational culture. There's all sorts of ways in which trust has been eroded.

Simon Sinek 11:55 This idea of access into, uh, to information and shared information is part of what creates our national identity.

Dr. Eliza Filby 12:01 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 12:01 But if the media landscape-... is fragmented and diffused and now hyper politicized for financial gain.

Dr. Eliza Filby 12:09 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 12:10 For political, uh, not even for political reasons.

Dr. Eliza Filby 12:12 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 12:12 It's politically, uh, uh, fractured for commercial reasons.

Dr. Eliza Filby 12:16 Yep.

Simon Sinek 12:16 Which is the, you know, uh, let's be honest, if all of the newspapers were conservative, Rupert Murdoch would've started a liberal TV station. Like, it was purely commercial. And so what we end up having is fractured identity because of fractured media. Is that a fair statement?

Dr. Eliza Filby 12:32 Uh, yes, but I also think let's not rose tint the past and that there was this wonderful time when we all believed the truth and we all had this shared truth and shared identity and shared moment. You know, there's a lot of conspiracy culture [laughs] um, before the internet. The internet didn't invent conspiracy, nor did it invent cynicism, um, and distrust in institutions. I think that there's an element here in what you say that's also slightly missing. The idea of the individual seeking out the truth or seeking out their own community, their micro community, or their own sort of narrative or worldview. One of the things that's really sort of typical of Gen Z, if we're gonna go into the generations, uh, [laughs] generalizations here, is that desire to seek out the information rather than just be passive consumers of information. It's, it really interesting. If you look at the data around which generation is most likely to spread fake news, it's Baby Boomers. Now, they grew up with verified media. They trust it.

Simon Sinek 13:41 So if it comes in, it must be true.

Dr. Eliza Filby 13:43 They grew up with, you know, three TV channels. Gen Z grew up with their own TV channel, but also-

Simon Sinek 13:51 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 13:51 ... deep fakes, the ability to edit, airbrushing, and, you know, spam.

Simon Sinek 13:55 And they know how to do that too, yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 13:56 Right? So this, this idea of, okay, I'm gonna seek out the truth-

Simon Sinek 14:01 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 14:01 ... whatever that means to me, and however that aligns with me. We know we're living in an era where my truth is essentially the truth, right? [laughs] Then there's an empowerment to that, but then it also is often combined with a cynicism around official sources of truth, official media, and also a, um, I think a sort of unwillingness to maybe hear things that the algorithm tells you you, you don't believe in. I mean, you're seeing that play out in the workplace, if you wanna go there. But the conspiracy

Dr. Eliza Filby 14:32 culture you're seeing in politics-

Simon Sinek 14:34 Mm

Dr. Eliza Filby 14:34 ... is infiltrating corporations.

Simon Sinek 14:36 Say more.

Dr. Eliza Filby 14:37 So if you go on Fishbowl or if you go on TikTok or if you go, frankly, any sort of forum where people are talking about their lives, you will find, okay, if you're in this job, are you earning this? Because I'm earning this. And if you're in this job, if they let you go because they, they let these people go, or you wanna hear what's happening in Australia, you know, and that's impacting what's happening in the US. What I'm saying is that conspiracy culture that's in politics is infiltrating the workplace when things go wrong. Internal communications with, is massively problematic because Gen Z are having those conversations, not down the pub or in the cafe. They're having them online, and that is a sort of contagious culture where people go, "Well, do you know what? I'm not gonna trust a word the CEO says. I'm not gonna trust a word HR is saying, because those people have laid off, and you see what they're saying on LinkedIn or Fishbowl." I think there's this, there's this sort of empowering nature to that sort of fragmentation of information and, and owning the narrative and finding out your truth, but there's also a conspiratorial sort of culture that's very corrosive to our politics, we know that, and very corrosive to other areas of, of, of people's lives.

Simon Sinek 15:49 But don't conspiracy theories come out of uncertainty, fear? You know, uh, I mean, there's always conspiracy theories, of course. I'm not romanticizing that the past doesn't have them, and they can spread a lot more easily now. It's, it's seeds of doubt.

Dr. Eliza Filby 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 16:03 And we are living in times... And forget about

Simon Sinek 16:06 political uncertainty, all that stuff. I'm talking about just the workplace, where-

Dr. Eliza Filby 16:09 Yeah

Simon Sinek 16:10 ... work used to be a, a safe place. You used to work your whole career in one company, and, and then that would be it. And then public companies started embracing redundancies and mass layoffs as a means of balancing the books at the end of the year. And so work no longer became stable, which it didn't matter how hard you worked, it wasn't a meritocracy. We missed our arbitrary projections. Sorry, you get to lose your job. And it was always considered, okay, well, public companies are unsafe, but private companies are safe. And then the rise of venture capital-

Dr. Eliza Filby 16:37 Right

Simon Sinek 16:37 ... and the pressures from another investor class now creates, you know, cost-cutting as a mechanism to protect the investor's investment, not the company's-

Dr. Eliza Filby 16:47 Right

Simon Sinek 16:47 ... wellbeing. And so now you're not safe in a public company. You're not safe in a private company. And I see younger people now who are fashioning their own careers-

Dr. Eliza Filby 16:58 Mm

Simon Sinek 16:58 ... with multiple kinds of gig e- gig experiences. Like, I know one woman, she's a comedian, she's a tour guide, she's a something else. Like, she's got-

Dr. Eliza Filby 17:08 Yeah

Simon Sinek 17:08 ... three or four things going on.

Dr. Eliza Filby 17:10 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 17:10 And they all pay a little bit, and she can put together an income through all of it, but she's doing it her way. And it's not because she's, like, dreamed of being her own boss one day.

Dr. Eliza Filby 17:21 Right.

Simon Sinek 17:21 And I'm seeing more and more of young people being very, very open to the uncertainty and the craziness of an entrepreneurial or solopreneur life, but they've got a little bit here and a little bit there. It's not like, "I'm gonna start a business to do this," or, "I'm g-

Dr. Eliza Filby 17:36 Yeah

Simon Sinek 17:36 ... it's got, they got a little bit of everything going on.

Dr. Eliza Filby 17:39 Right.

Simon Sinek 17:39 And I think it's in response to the total lack of security that is offered by any company now. It makes sense to me why we would see a rise of conspiracy theories, not just because media spreads it more easily, which is definitely a factor, but also that there's just more insecurity in the system.

Dr. Eliza Filby 18:03 And, you know, amen to all of that. And I, and I think the biggest question that leaders need to ask themselves... is h- what am I offering in the age of uncertainty? If I can't offer stability, if I can't offer you that life script, what am I offering you?

Simon Sinek 18:21 Exactly.

Dr. Eliza Filby 18:22 Am I offering you a place to learn? Am I offering you a, a place to belong? Am I offering you a place that'll be one step before you make the big step? What is it that leaders are offering their people? Because you're absolutely right. What we have seen is the gradual, and it's not sudden, it's gradual erosion of the narrative we were told.

Simon Sinek 18:43 Yep.

Dr. Eliza Filby 18:43 And I'm a Millennial, right? I was told, "Go to university. Do well in school. Get to university. Get on a professional track, and access to financial stability, home ownership, and that pathway to retirement-

Simon Sinek 18:55 Just like the previous generations

Dr. Eliza Filby 18:56 ... will be there."

Simon Sinek 18:57 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 18:57 Will be there.

Simon Sinek 18:58 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 18:58 Okay? My mom worked for the same company her entire working life.

Simon Sinek 19:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 19:02 Okay? And she retired at 60. I know. [laughs] My life is very different. I've had three different careers, and I've owned two different businesses before I'm 45. This sort of life script that we were told p- defined the late 20th century, let's be clear, it's not always been there-

Simon Sinek 19:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 19:19 ... has eroded, and it started to erode in the '80s.

Simon Sinek 19:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 19:23 And it's been further and further eroded ever since.

Simon Sinek 19:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 19:27 And you're seeing the disruption of pensions and pension provision, and pension security. You're seeing the, obviously, the disruption of loyalty of the company to the individual. You're also seeing, and people don't talk about this enough in the context of stability, is the dehumanization of work. You know, the over-digitalization of process, the expectation of always that you're on and available. And so it's not just that work doesn't buy you what it bought your parents, it's also work isn't bringing the same social rewards and connection points as it did your parents. My mom has work friendships that she has cultivated at work, and then post-work, you know, have lasted 50 years. That is now an anomaly.

Simon Sinek 20:19 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:20 And I think, just to sort of reinforce what you're saying there, is if we're saying that that narrative has broken, what's replacing it?

Simon Sinek 20:29 What's replacing it?

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:29 Right? And I think, I think you're absolutely right. I would say number one,

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:34 the family now offers the stability that work used to. You are-

Simon Sinek 20:38 Which is why young people-

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:40 Right

Simon Sinek 20:40 ... there's no shame in moving back home-

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:42 Right

Simon Sinek 20:42 ... in your 20s, even 30s.

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:44 Right.

Simon Sinek 20:44 Like, my generation looks at that and be like, "What?"

Dr. Eliza Filby 20:46 Well, let's, let's put it a different way, 'cause you're absolutely right. The Bank of Mum and Dad is offering the stability that the corporation never used to, right? So I say to leaders all the time, "You know, you do realize that your employees are more likely to get on the housing ladder by being loyal to their parents than being loyal to you." So how, then, do you adapt your leadership, your company culture, your raison d'être as an organization-

Simon Sinek 21:11 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:11 ... in that economy, right?

Simon Sinek 21:12 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:12 Number one. Number two, you are seeing the rise not just of, of family support, but as you've alluded to, solopreneurship. And I think there's a real distinction. I think we casually say we're in this culture of entrepreneurship in the gig economy. I think we're actually seeing squiggly careers-

Simon Sinek 21:30 Yep

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:30 ... that are non-linear.

Simon Sinek 21:31 Yep.

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:32 But also solopreneurship, because that comedian that you talked about doesn't wanna employ a team.

Simon Sinek 21:37 Nope, nope.

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:37 You know? And I-

Simon Sinek 21:38 Zero

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:38 ... and I-

Simon Sinek 21:38 And I, I'm thinking of literally three or four people off the top of my head who have gone the solopreneur way, have no desire to have employees.

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:46 Right.

Simon Sinek 21:46 But they are making their own way.

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:47 And, and that was me five years ago. I now have a team. I call myself a reluctant entrepreneur [laughs] 'cause I-

Simon Sinek 21:53 But that was by accident

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:53 ... I'm learning. I'm so learning.

Simon Sinek 21:55 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:55 I'm learning every day how to be a leader. But I'm, I'm learning how to be a g-

Simon Sinek 21:59 It's hard, isn't it?

Dr. Eliza Filby 21:59 Oh my goodness.

Simon Sinek 22:00 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 22:00 It's so hard. It's so hard. And part of me is just like, "This is not what I was born to do." But there's a real difference, right?

Simon Sinek 22:08 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 22:08 And, and solopreneurship comes with the instability that people talk about. You know, when's my next paycheck? Can I afford healthcare? Can I afford to put my kids through university because I'm still paying my own college debt? It comes with the instability that actually now, in the age of AI, people that have the linear career are beginning to feel.

Simon Sinek 22:29 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 22:29 I think for a long time we talked about those in the gig economy have this instability that we kind of like, kind of, "Hey, you have freedom, but you ins- have instability." Now, I think people who have that agility to be this and be fluid and do this, and have multiple streams of revenue, have greater stability in the age of AI than people that are on a one track.

Simon Sinek 22:48 I think there's also an accountability component, right? Which is, I think when w- when we live in a world and where companies offer us little to no loyalty, the idea of waiting for someone else to decide if I have a c- a, a, a job, just waiting.

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:02 Hope, hope, hoping I'm not on the list.

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:03 Right, right.

Simon Sinek 23:03 And 1,000 of my friends got laid off, you know?

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:07 You hear these companies make the announcements, go, "We're gonna be laying off 10,000 people over the course of the next six months." The stupidity anyway-

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:12 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:12 ... of that strategy. But the point is, is there's a, this younger generation that is... And they're all kind of the same age, by the way. They're all kind of, the ones that I'm seeing are in their early to mid-30s.

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:26 And maybe they've had a few rounds doing the, the work thing. They've tried a few things. They've all had jobs.

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:30 Right.

Simon Sinek 23:31 And I think they got fed up waiting and being on edge. And whether they're making a lot of money or a little money, it's, uh, entirely on their shoulders. And I think for some of them-

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:42 ... they like those odds. And I also wanna double click on something else you said before, which is if companies aren't gonna offer stability, what are they offering us?

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:50 Right.

Simon Sinek 23:51 Right? Even the paycheck isn't enough.

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:52 Right.

Simon Sinek 23:53 And you touched on it, which is the idea, are you gonna offer me belonging?

Dr. Eliza Filby 23:57 Mm.

Simon Sinek 23:57 And I think if you're not gonna offer me belonging, and this is so... essential for every human animal-

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:03 Yeah, absolutely

Simon Sinek 24:03 ... to have a sense of belonging. Like, we need it as-

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:05 Right

Simon Sinek 24:06 ... tribal animals.

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:06 Totally.

Simon Sinek 24:06 We need to know where we belong because we need to know where to feel safe and where to-

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:10 Yeah

Simon Sinek 24:10 ... and where to sacrifice for the good of others. And the idea of the generations becoming more and more sort of slim and nuanced and dissected kinda makes sense 'cause I'm looking for belonging where I can't find it.

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:23 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 24:23 So maybe that will give me an answer.

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:25 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 24:26 Identity politics is looking for belonging because I can't seem to find it anywhere else.

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:30 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 24:30 And I totally make sense now the way you explain it, which is instead of me going off and making myself as a dot, dot, dot, this is my identity-

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:38 Mm

Simon Sinek 24:38 ... my identity is I'm a son, I'm a daughter, I'm a member of this family, and I contribute to the household, and I have the security that the company should be giving me.

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:47 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 24:48 I should be having the coaching my, my bosses should be giving me.

Dr. Eliza Filby 24:52 Right.

Simon Sinek 24:52 Whether it's healthy or not is a different conversation. Whether it's good or not, you know, is probably up for a matter of debate, but the fact of the matter, it, in a world in which stability is very hard to find-

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:03 Mm

Simon Sinek 25:03 ... the one place I hope I can bank on is home-

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:06 Right

Simon Sinek 25:07 ... and, and, and family. It makes sense.

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:10 Right. And, and it's-

Simon Sinek 25:11 And it's not about money.

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:12 No, uh, uh-

Simon Sinek 25:12 'Cause a lot of them spend all their money, which I don't understand. [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:15 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 25:16 Like, you're making a good living. You're not paying rent, or maybe you're paying minimal rent to contribute to the household. Where's all your money? [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:23 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 25:23 They're having ... They're living great lives. [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:25 Okay, okay. Shall I tell you why they're always spending all their money?

Simon Sinek 25:27 Please, tell me all of it.

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:28 Okay, right, right.

Simon Sinek 25:28 I wanna know all.

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:29 So, so economically-

Simon Sinek 25:30 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 25:31 ... since 2008, we've had a very clear trajectory, right? The big-ticket items in life have become exponentially expensive. So what are the big-ticket items in life? Owning a home, or even renting a home, right? Education, okay, which become ever more important. Maybe not in the future. Healthcare, depending on where you are in the world, okay? Childcare, particularly, obviously, if you're a working mom. Big-ticket items have become ever more expensive really across the world. I would say Europe is probably 10 years ahead of the US, but really across the world we're seeing the, since 2008, the big-ticket items in life become incredibly expensive, right?

Simon Sinek 26:07 After the stock market crash.

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:08 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 26:08 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:09 What became cheap?

Simon Sinek 26:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:11 Right? Eating out. Eating out became really ... It used to ... I mean, it's gone up in the last five years, but eating out used to be-

Simon Sinek 26:17 It used to be a treat

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:17 ... really expensive.

Simon Sinek 26:18 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:18 Like, I never wa- ate out with my parents in the '80s and '90s. Like, it was just ... We couldn't afford it. What else became cheap? Travel.

Simon Sinek 26:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:26 Travel becomes this identity. In the UK, for example, more Millennials have passports than driving licenses, and it, it, it sort of indicates for, for the Boomers, it was the car-

Simon Sinek 26:37 Mm

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:37 ... that was the access point to adulthood. For Millennials, it became the airplane.

Simon Sinek 26:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 26:41 And then finally tech and the universalization of the smartphone and essentially any kind of technology. So you've got this weird economy where certain luxuries become really cheap, and the big-ticket items in life become really expensive. And then you have social media, which says, right, well, actually this is all a comparison culture, so you need to be doing these things. And so you get this performative culture where you're spending lots of money to do, you know, three things, which is travel, eat out, and spend lots of money on tech.

Simon Sinek 27:09 And, and post all of it online.

Dr. Eliza Filby 27:10 And h- who ends up paying for the big-ticket items in life if you are lucky to have access? To the Bank of Mum and Dad, which is why, you know, a quarter of Gen Zers in the US are getting a down payment on a home from their parents. In, in the UK-

Simon Sinek 27:24 25%.

Dr. Eliza Filby 27:24 Yeah. In, in the UK, you know, the Bank of Mum and Dad is a top 10 mortgage lender.

Simon Sinek 27:29 No kidding.

Dr. Eliza Filby 27:29 Yeah. More than half of first time buyers in London are, are buying a house with help from their parents.

Simon Sinek 27:35 Co-signed with their folks, yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 27:35 Right. So, so you have this economy.

Simon Sinek 27:37 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 27:37 And let's remember, the Boomers-

Simon Sinek 27:39 Feel good

Dr. Eliza Filby 27:40 ... are extremely rich, okay? They're an exceptional generation. We're never gonna see the likes of them again. God bless them. They are an exception, not the rule. And we think, hang on a minute, the contract is, is that we do what they did, and then, you know, the financial crisis happens, and we can't in the same way. And it's paralleled with this erosion of corporate culture and corporate loyalty. Our jobs don't buy us what it bought our parents. So I'm going on Instagram, and I'm showing my travel plans, [laughs] my holiday. I'm spending all my money on eating out and matcha lattes, and, um, I'm gonna tap my parents for a down payment on a house. So, I mean, I'm crudely summarizing here.

Simon Sinek 28:21 No.

Dr. Eliza Filby 28:21 You mentioned something that I, I just wanna circle back on because

Dr. Eliza Filby 28:24 the thing I hear most from companies is, "Why don't young people have the hunger?" The hunger. It's always the hunger, okay?

Simon Sinek 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 28:32 And I'm like, "How do you treat your kids? How, [laughs] how do you parent? How do you parent?"

Simon Sinek 28:39 Well, I bought them a house and a car.

Dr. Eliza Filby 28:40 Yeah. [laughs] Did you buy them everything they asked for? We have a generation in Gen Z who've grown up looking at their parents going, "You worked really hard in a dehumanized workplace. You earned loads of money, and the rewards today aren't the same. And you're also gonna support me if you can."

Simon Sinek 28:58 And I will leverage-

Dr. Eliza Filby 28:59 The other-

Simon Sinek 28:59 ... all of the guilt you have-

Dr. Eliza Filby 29:01 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 29:01 ... by working so hard and missing all of my school plays.

Dr. Eliza Filby 29:04 [laughs] Right. So the, the thing-

Simon Sinek 29:06 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 29:06 The thing that's really ... I ran this focus group, fascinating focus group of, um, Gen Z young women who'd had professional mothers, right? And then we asked Gen X mothers who were still professional women, and the Gen Z daughters of professional mothers were like, "Do you know what? I don't wanna work as hard as my mother." The overriding conversation was not, "My mother was a feminist pioneer. She broke that glass ceiling. I wanna ape her example." It was, "She was really stressed even when she was on holiday." And then you asked, we, we asked the Gen X mothers. They weren't related, by the way. The Gen X mothers were, "My daughter ha- my daughters have a point. They all think I work too hard, and I think I did." And that, I, I know it, I feel it, I sense it, I'm a mother, is partly to do with mother's guilt, right, and these strange perceptions we have as mothers that we pretend we don't have a job, um, in front of our kids. But I think actually it's a broader question of the role that work plays in our lives, and what it used to play and what it does play now in what I call an inheritance economy. And I think-When, going back to the original point, leaders say, "Why don't people have the hunger [laughs] that young peop- why can't they put up, shut up, work their way up like I did?" Is because the economy isn't encouraging that. Actually, you want hunger, you want real hunger in your new recruits, find the people that are not being supported by the Bank of Mum and Dad, but they themselves are supporting their parents, because that's a large percentage of the population. And the real truth is, of course, is we've seen a decline of meritocracy, we've seen the closing of doors and, and increasingly, particularly with AI, the lack of access and the leverage that parents have in getting their kids jobs and opening those doors, and the rise of, of greater nepotism. Those people aren't getting through in a way that they used to.

Simon Sinek 31:00 And it's an entirely new way of evaluating somebody, right? Like, evaluating what school you went to because your mum and dad paid, or evaluating, you know, the opportunities you had because your mum and ba- dad paid. We're l- we're actually potentially looking for the wrong behaviors if you want somebody who's got the grit, the push-

Dr. Eliza Filby 31:16 Right

Simon Sinek 31:17 ... whatever you're looking for.

Dr. Eliza Filby 31:18 Right.

Simon Sinek 31:18 That's super interesting.

Dr. Eliza Filby 31:20 You know, I talk about sort of the rise of the inheritance economy in inheritocracy and the rise of, of the Bank of Mum and Dad.

Dr. Eliza Filby 31:29 But there's actually a bigger story, because yes, money is cascading down the family tree, but, and this is the subject of my, um, my next book, and I'm researching it at the moment, is the, is our life cycle has completely changed. And the fact is, governments, um, financial institutions, educational institutions, um, haven't caught up. So we've delayed adulthood. We now have a slow, meandering path into adulthood. And that's partly to do with economic constraint, but it's also freedom. I didn't want kids at 21. Slower adulthood, pressured midlife. No one talks about this. When they... We fixate on living longer and longevity, but actually the life course has completely changed. So most people think they become an adult around the age of 30. It used to be 21, it used to be 18, it used to be 16, it used to be 13, if we're going right back. So this pathway into adulthood has changed. Midlife has become this pressured point. We don't talk about a midlife crisis anymore. That's very much a kind of '80s kind of masculine corporate sort of collapse. But now we talk about midlife crisis as, you know, Gen Xers right now, particularly Gen X women, are going through this midlife where they are squeezed between looking after their children, which is now a 30-year financial commitment, okay? But also caring for the elderly. You know, and eldercare now is a, as big a pressure as childcare on people, and actually quite often lasts longer in terms of that direct need to help your parents. And in an aging society, we need to think about not how aging societies impact the elderly, but how it impacts-

Simon Sinek 33:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 33:13 ... those in midlife.

Simon Sinek 33:14 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 33:14 And so we're getting this sort of really pressured midlife point where people are changing their retirement plans to get their kids through college, or coming out of work to look after their mum, you know? Your mother who has dementia, you could be looking after her for 20 years.

Simon Sinek 33:30 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 33:30 And then, of course, this, this need to potentially work longer, or this desire to work longer, okay? So this, this fixed point of retirement is changing. But then also, what does retirement look like? Is it golf courses and cruises anymore? No.

Simon Sinek 33:46 Starting another business for some people. [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 33:48 No, it's starting another business. It's having a complete-

Simon Sinek 33:51 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 33:51 ... flowering of, of things that you wanted to do. You know, and for Millennials, you're not gonna wanna go to, you know, traveling in the way that Boomers have because you kinda did that in your 20s.

Simon Sinek 34:00 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 34:00 So what does retirement look like is, I think, super interesting. And then what does life look like when basically our minds and our bodies stop working? Because you're gonna need care, you're gonna need that community, you're gonna need that support.

Simon Sinek 34:13 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 34:14 And you become reliant on others. So have you built that infrastructure financially? It's interesting, I was looking at the data on this last week, is that the ri- what you're seeing is the rise of multi-generational houses, homes in the US.

Simon Sinek 34:26 Whose houses is everybody moving into?

Dr. Eliza Filby 34:28 Mm. So if you look at Gen X, they're building multi-generational homes. With Millennials, at the moment you're seeing Millennials moving to where the Boomers are. Quite often the maternal grandparents, and the grandparents are doing childcare, and then obviously that care reversal process that happens in every family.

Simon Sinek 34:46 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 34:46 You know? And, and it happened with- within my own family when my father died.

Simon Sinek 34:50 Your mum moved in?

Dr. Eliza Filby 34:51 My mum moved in. We all took time off work to look after my dad. My dad s- when he was ill, said two things to me, which I reflect upon quite often because he was quite a brutal man, my dad. He kind of [laughs] spoke the truth harshly. And he was like, "I'm glad I had three daughters, not three sons." You know? And I was like, "Okay, Dad." [laughs] As we're slaving away, you know, looking after him.

Simon Sinek 35:15 Well, I get that.

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:15 And, and it... He was right.

Simon Sinek 35:17 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:17 He was right. And he also said, "I'm gonna make this quick."

Simon Sinek 35:21 Wow.

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:22 Yeah. And, you know, thinking about it sort of gets me highly emotional, but what he was basically saying is, "You've got better things to do."

Simon Sinek 35:30 Like, "Thanks for looking after me, but-

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:32 Yeah

Simon Sinek 35:33 ... I, I, I got this." [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:34 "I'm, I'm done. I'm done." And we all took time out of work. We were lucky that we had that freedom.

Simon Sinek 35:39 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:39 I know people that have looked after their parents for near on 20 years. You know, I was, I was actually listening to your podcast with Scott Galloway, a man whose work I hugely admire.

Simon Sinek 35:47 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:47 And I love, I loved the way, the dynamic between you two, and the way you disagreed, but agreeably. But the thing that I don't think he sort of perhaps

Dr. Eliza Filby 35:57 gives sort of due appreciation for is that Millennial couples are working in majority dual income households, right?

Simon Sinek 36:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 36:09 And they're working twice as hard-... quite often to be half as rich as their parents. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 36:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 36:15 Dual income households are the norm now-

Simon Sinek 36:18 Mm

Dr. Eliza Filby 36:18 ... not the exception. And what we're really talking about is, and companies need to be thinking about this as well as, you know, couples themselves, is if women have stepped up financially in the home and contributing to the household finances, men have no choice, literally no choice, but to step up on the domestic front. And it's great because Millennial dads push more pushchairs, change more nappies, you know, spend more time with their kids than any other generation of fathers before them. It's not because they love their kids more.

Simon Sinek 36:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 36:52 Right? [laughs] Let's just be clear on that than any other generation of fathers.

Simon Sinek 36:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 36:56 It's because there is a requirement.

Simon Sinek 36:59 Mm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:00 There is a need in a dual income household for men to step up domestically. What you're not seeing to the same degree is men doing the eldercare in the same way that they're doing the childcare.

Simon Sinek 37:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:12 And actually fundamentally, that's one of the biggest challenges I think that companies need to get their heads around-

Simon Sinek 37:18 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:18 ... is actually in an aging society, what's happening to your midlifers with those kinds of responsibilities, and are you promoting eldercare as much as you're promoting fatherhood in the workplace?

Simon Sinek 37:27 What is your prediction for this young generation that's entering work?

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:31 Mm.

Simon Sinek 37:31 What is their identity? Where are they gonna get their belonging? You know, now they're being battered by messages of AI taking their jobs, whether it's true or not.

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:41 Mm.

Simon Sinek 37:41 You know, time will tell. You know, companies are already using AI as a justification to make layoffs, which I think is a bit premature.

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:48 Mm.

Simon Sinek 37:48 I, I don't believe them.

Dr. Eliza Filby 37:49 Mm. Mm. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:50 But that's a different conversation. The young generations that have been accused of being entitled, and I have my own sort of theories on that, um, which I can share with you quickly, which is it is an entitlement. That's how it does appear.

Dr. Eliza Filby 38:02 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 38:03 You know? What I think that the corporate world is missing is that the young generation that enters the workforce, and has been for, you know, I'd say probably a good 10 years if not more, they're playing by the rules that companies set. So just as we were saying before, where in the past you could get a job and you could work there as long as you wanted to work there. They would look after you, and you would look after the company.

Dr. Eliza Filby 38:22 Right.

Simon Sinek 38:22 But now with the rise of mass layoffs to balance the books, I can't rely on the fact that I'm gonna have a job, so if you're offering me no loyalty, I offer you no loyalty.

Dr. Eliza Filby 38:31 Mm.

Simon Sinek 38:31 And you know how w- when I was coming up through the ranks, I would do the extra work first, do the extra project, go the extra mile.

Dr. Eliza Filby 38:39 Mm.

Simon Sinek 38:39 Then I would go to my boss and be like, "Look what I did. Can I have a raise?"

Dr. Eliza Filby 38:42 Yeah. [laughs] Right.

Simon Sinek 38:42 And now young people will come into your office and be like, "Give me a raise and you'll see what I can do."

Dr. Eliza Filby 38:47 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:48 And, you know, older generations are like, "Pay you before you do it? W- what?" But I think they have it right, which is, which is because there's no guarantee that they're gonna have a job by the end of the year because of layoffs, that might as well cash in now because I might not have it later, so why do the extra work? I'm gonna get the money up front. I work hard. I believe in my work. I'm, I, I like accountability.

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:11 Yeah. Right.

Simon Sinek 39:11 I, I'm not a slacker, but I'm gonna get the advance.

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:14 Yep.

Simon Sinek 39:14 Right? Though it does absolutely read as entitlement, I think it is simply a response to the rules that companies play by, and now the employees are finally catching up and playing by the rule that the company set. And so if you want that behavior to change-

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:29 Yep

Simon Sinek 39:29 ... treat your people differently.

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:31 Mm.

Simon Sinek 39:31 Like, maybe not embrace mass layoffs. Maybe offer some sort of career path and some sort of security. And I mean, I can only speak from our little company-

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:40 Yeah

Simon Sinek 39:40 ... but we have a lot of young people who work with us, and they've been here for, how many l- years have you been here? Five years. W- I mean... And your friends, do they go and work for a place for five years, or are they in and out? Whether they're getting laid off or whether they're quitting. Typically two to three. Two to three-

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 39:57 ... is more normal for her friends.

Dr. Eliza Filby 39:59 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:00 Two to th- Right? And it's not because we're the world's greatest place to work. We have our issues, and we got personality challenges, and we-

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:05 Mm

Simon Sinek 40:05 ... and we make stupid decisions and... Like, hey, don't be so agreeable.

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:09 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:10 Jesus. They're all nodding. They're all nodding. No, stop nodding. [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:15 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:16 But what we do promise is, like, we're gonna do this together.

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:20 Mm.

Simon Sinek 40:20 And we'll all take care of each other, and there's a sense, I think, of we have good times and bad times, but I, I hope there's a sense of security-

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:28 Yeah

Simon Sinek 40:28 ... which is one of the reasons they stick around. And if you want the behavior to change, change the way you do business. And it redresses all the things we're talking about.

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 40:36 You know, which is offer stability, offer security, offer belonging, offer cause, offer some reason to come to work other than more than just simply making a paycheck.

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:46 Yep.

Simon Sinek 40:46 Let people socialize. Hire people that are gonna get along, and let them be friends. It's undoing all the nonsense that work did for 30 years-

Dr. Eliza Filby 40:54 Right

Simon Sinek 40:54 ... to the detriment of work. That's the irony. And, and we're seeing it play out in these generational themes-

Dr. Eliza Filby 41:00 Yeah

Simon Sinek 41:00 ... and these generational, uh, uh, tropes. This is what I'm pr- theorizing. I, I, I would love to get your feedback, which is that these generational personalities are not predetermined. And yes, they are of course impacted by technology and global events, of course.

Dr. Eliza Filby 41:18 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 41:18 But they're also impacted by how the world around them reacts. And if you go back to the Greatest Generation who went through war together and went through rations together, and sharing and looking after each other, you had to do it, because otherwise the whole thing collapsed.

Dr. Eliza Filby 41:34 Mm.

Simon Sinek 41:34 And that, that was cultural.

Dr. Eliza Filby 41:39 No, no, no, you're absolutely right, and I, I'm, uh, the word I wanna kind of interrogate is transactional, 'cause I think it's the right word. So in, in the 1950s in the US, there was this great psychologist that, that ran this survey, and it was asking people in 1952, "Do you think you're an important person?"

Simon Sinek 41:56 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 41:57 Do you think you're an important person, Simon? [laughs]

Simon Sinek 42:00 I think I, I would be curious-

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:03 I do

Simon Sinek 42:04 ... I-

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:04 You're very important

Simon Sinek 42:05 ... that is very nice of you.

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:06 You're very important.

Simon Sinek 42:06 Well, if you said it, who am I to disagree?

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:09 Right. [laughs] Okay.

Simon Sinek 42:09 I mean, you're the PhD. I'm not.

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:11 What percentage of people in the US, right?

Simon Sinek 42:14 Yeah. I think Americans think they're more important than-

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:15 Nat- Right, in 1952-

Simon Sinek 42:16 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:16 ... said they were very important.

Simon Sinek 42:17 Yeah. I'm gonna say it's d-High above 50%

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:21 No

Simon Sinek 42:21 Re-

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:21 12%.

Simon Sinek 42:22 What?

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:23 12%, right? The survey was run again in 1990.

Simon Sinek 42:27 Okay.

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:27 And let me just be clear, right?

Simon Sinek 42:29 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:29 Millennials weren't in the group.

Simon Sinek 42:31 Right, right.

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:31 Gen Z weren't even born or conceived. What percentage of people in the US-

Simon Sinek 42:36 Go on. Go on. I can't even guess

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:37 No, go on.

Simon Sinek 42:38 Well, I'm hoping the number went up.

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:40 [laughs] It did. 80%. 80%

Simon Sinek 42:44 Oh

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:44 ... of people, nationally representative poll, said they were a very important person in 1990. So let me be clear about here, right?

Simon Sinek 42:52 Oh, this is so beautiful.

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:52 What we have, but what we have is this, this rising individualism-

Simon Sinek 42:57 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 42:57 ... right? That you talk about, you know, throughout this, this, this beautiful podcast. Always you ta- you come back to this, this rising individualism.

Simon Sinek 43:05 Because those numbers, now that I hear them, make sense to me. Because you have a generation that went through war together, and humility and teamwork were the thing.

Dr. Eliza Filby 43:11 Right.

Simon Sinek 43:12 So how can I be more important than everybody else? That makes sense.

Dr. Eliza Filby 43:15 No, but it's really, it's really basic.

Simon Sinek 43:17 Oh, it's so good.

Dr. Eliza Filby 43:17 No, but it's really basic.

Simon Sinek 43:19 Go on. Go on.

Dr. Eliza Filby 43:19 Is actually one of the biggest markers is smaller families. If you're one of 12, right, you just fit in, and you just-

Simon Sinek 43:29 Oh

Dr. Eliza Filby 43:29 ... carry on, right?

Simon Sinek 43:29 Makes sense, too.

Dr. Eliza Filby 43:30 Smaller families. You've also got working parents, and you c- you know, the data on this is fascinating. A working mother today spends more time with her child than a non-working stay-at-home mom did in the 1970s. So attentive parenting, smaller families, okay? And then individualized education, in which it's always I, not we. We never get rewarded for teamwork at school. It's always individual results. And then we throw in tech [laughs] which is an algorithmic now, completely individualized perspective. You ever picked up someone else's phone? Foreign country. It's completely wild. Like, what's the algorithm doing there? You can't even understand what it's throwing at you. You have this ever-closing, you know, atomized individualism. Now, one of the things that I think is-

Simon Sinek 44:18 So good

Dr. Eliza Filby 44:18 ... super interesting-

Simon Sinek 44:20 So good

Dr. Eliza Filby 44:20 ... is I was looking

Dr. Eliza Filby 44:21 at data at communal spaces at work, kitchens. So what you've seen post-COVID, and COVID's I think a really important demarcation here, is the decline of people cleaning up after themselves in the communal kitchen. So the coffee cup-

Simon Sinek 44:42 Whoa

Dr. Eliza Filby 44:42 ... you use. You know, cleaning the microwave if your soup goes everywhere. People aren't cleaning up after themselves in the communal spaces at work.

Simon Sinek 44:52 Whoa.

Dr. Eliza Filby 44:52 Now, it could be that obviously there's workers in there that are c- you know, cleaners that are clean-

Simon Sinek 44:57 So what?

Dr. Eliza Filby 44:57 But it's not. It's not, because there's always been office cleaners. It's because people have a much more atomized view of the world, but an increasingly transactional view of work. And it's not just because the contract is broken. It's also because of a hyper-individualized culture.

Simon Sinek 45:14 Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 45:15 Now, COVID created, obviously, this enforced, um, remote working scenario.

Simon Sinek 45:23 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 45:23 Many of whom entered the workforce, that was their first experience of work, staring at a green dot 12 hours a day. Those people are now, you know, managers, and some of them are now leaders, right? They were never sort of, you know, baptized in good management and good leadership because they were living through a global crisis. But you have COVID, and now we have hybrid and remote working. And so those points of connection, those points of low-stakes socialization in the workplace have completely gone, which is why, you know, I spend a lot of my time helping companies not just help leaders understand their young people and go, "Look," you know, "stop being scared of them. They're understandably this way," but helping young people understand what does reciprocal relationships and dynamics and responsibilities look like in the workplace? Because you are just thinking about I. You are not thinking about we. And if I, if I just focus on leaders, helping them-

Simon Sinek 46:20 Sure

Dr. Eliza Filby 46:20 ... because it's a combination-

Simon Sinek 46:21 Sure

Dr. Eliza Filby 46:22 ... of listening to what's your irritations. What are your thoughts? What's your challenges in your daily life? What's your, you know, your needs, wants, and desires? Let's get that out. Let's get out your moans. But then let, let me tell you what your leaders are saying about you, and let me tell you how you can have the confidence to ask the right questions, how you can just in a moment switch people's expectations of you or how they give you feedback, you know? And so we do it in a, a real-world way and help them understand that it's not just I, it's we. I think this is all about power.

Dr. Eliza Filby 46:58 Now, we have had, pretty much throughout history [laughs] Marx would concur, um, a power balance that swings-

Simon Sinek 47:06 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 47:06 ... between workers and employers, right?

Simon Sinek 47:09 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 47:10 And post-COVID, that pendulum swung in favor of employees.

Simon Sinek 47:16 Yep.

Dr. Eliza Filby 47:16 And now it's swinging back-

Simon Sinek 47:18 Yep

Dr. Eliza Filby 47:18 ... to employers. You have this new generation in the workplace, and they're really keen. They work throughout the night. They sometimes get things wrong. But do you know what? They're really praising of you and everything you do, and it's Gen AI. Because Gen AI is the next generation in the workforce. Gen AI is the plucky young intern [laughs] who's doing all the work at double speed. They sometimes get things wrong, um, but they're always wanting to please you. And so I think a really useful way of thinking about this, all generations in the workplace, is AI is the latest generation in the workplace that needs to be integrated, that needs to be put in its place [laughs] that needs to be managed, just as previous generations have.

Simon Sinek 48:13 All right, you had me hook, line, and sinker for so long. I completely agree with you in terms of the ... And that's what triggers me, like, people that don't know that there's other people in the world. It drives me nuts.

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:23 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 48:24 It drives me absolutely nuts.

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:25 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 48:25 Right?

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:26 That's horrible

Simon Sinek 48:26 ... and, uh, you know, in, in every respect.

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:28 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 48:29 Sitting in a restaurant, I actually talked to a guy who, he's a restaurant owner, and he was telling me that his business is down.

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:36 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 48:37 His restaurant is full, but his business is down. Because at the end of the meal, they've all paid the check-

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:44 Right

Simon Sinek 48:45 ... and then they all sit there on their phone after the meal-

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:47 Oh

Simon Sinek 48:47 ... and all go through all their texts and start checking their Instagrams and all the things that they've missed for the whatever hour that they were sitting in the restaurant, and he, he, he'll lose 20 minutes.

Dr. Eliza Filby 48:57 Wow.

Simon Sinek 48:57 So he gets fewer turns on his tables.

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:00 Wow.

Simon Sinek 49:00 Not order another drink, nothing.

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:01 No.

Simon Sinek 49:02 And so he, he's making less money with a full restaurant. My rule is, and all my friends know this, which is you can stay in the restaurant as long as you want. The minute you pay the check, the contract is complete. There's an exchange of consideration. You leave. That's the deal. You make room for another person.

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:15 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 49:16 That's the deal.

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:16 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 49:17 And I find it so arrogant and selfish that you can sit there as long as you want when somebody else is waiting for a table just 'cause you wanna check your phone, right?

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:25 Right.

Simon Sinek 49:25 That's my trigger. Because we've become so transactional and so individualistic-

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:29 Mm. Mm

Simon Sinek 49:29 ... I think you can't separate those two-

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:30 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 49:30 ... I think they're bedfellows, that simply saying to people or doing a workshop, "Think of others. It's not just you."

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:39 Mm.

Simon Sinek 49:39 "Here's how to ask for things."

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:40 Mm. Mm.

Simon Sinek 49:40 It's pieces of the puzzle-

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 49:42 ... but I, I, I think that it doesn't fix the problem, because the, the problem is that everything in my life-

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 49:51 ... my work, you made the case of media and my phone, everything has been made about me.

Dr. Eliza Filby 49:57 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 49:58 The in- the, the, i- i- the incentive structure is just about my performance, not about the team's performance. Everything is me, me, me, me, me. And you get the behavior you reward. And if the reward structures are screwed up and the cultures are screwed up, that no number of positively affected workshops will work significantly or substantively unless there's a wholesale change in the way we do business.

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:22 I completely agree. You can't fix anything in a workshop. What I'm really interested in-

Simon Sinek 50:28 And this is coming from somebody-

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:29 No. No, no

Simon Sinek 50:29 ... who likes to do workshops. [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:31 No. No. The reason I... No, but the reason I connect transactional relationship at work, rising individualism, and AI is because actually what there is is a solution in there. What we have is the last 20 years, the dehumanization of work, right?

Simon Sinek 50:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:53 Tech hasn't saved us time.

Simon Sinek 50:54 No.

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:55 Right?

Simon Sinek 50:55 It's made it worse.

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:56 It's made it worse, right?

Simon Sinek 50:56 The, the w- tech was the promise that we could, uh-

Dr. Eliza Filby 50:59 Right

Simon Sinek 50:59 ... that we could leave the office or we would just take the office with us.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:00 We have, we have the tyranny of-

Simon Sinek 51:02 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:02 ... of our inbox and email.

Simon Sinek 51:03 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:04 But where I think there's some really interesting fruitful optimism to be found-

Simon Sinek 51:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:10 ... right?

Simon Sinek 51:11 Oh, that.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:11 Is, [laughs] is-

Simon Sinek 51:13 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:14 ... the AI does the stuff that dehumanized the workplace.

Simon Sinek 51:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:20 It's really good at output. We know it's really good at productivity. It's really good at clearing our inbox. It's really good at the stuff you can count. But actually what you wanna do is get humans doing the stuff that can't be counted. And what's that? What is the stuff that actually oils the wheels of an organization but is never awarded, you can never count it, and you never task someone with it, and it's definitely not under the line of productivity?

Simon Sinek 51:48 A good cup of coffee.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:49 Three things.

Simon Sinek 51:50 Oh, sorry.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:50 No, three things.

Simon Sinek 51:51 [laughs]

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:51 Three things. Listen up.

Simon Sinek 51:53 Yeah, sorry.

Dr. Eliza Filby 51:54 Three things. Number one, and we, you talk about this so brilliantly, and I think we are beginning to talk about this much more, thankfully, in the workplace, is care.

Simon Sinek 52:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 52:02 That ability to understand, tap into, without prying, people's family situations or, you know, um, their wellbeing.

Simon Sinek 52:12 Things, things, things, conversations that used to be completely forbidden at work-

Dr. Eliza Filby 52:16 Having conversations that are-

Simon Sinek 52:17 ... done skillfully

Dr. Eliza Filby 52:17 ... that demonstrate-

Simon Sinek 52:18 Yep

Dr. Eliza Filby 52:19 ... care.

Simon Sinek 52:19 Yep.

Dr. Eliza Filby 52:19 Okay? Not procedures done by HR, not wellbeing initiatives done by external providers. Number two is that wisdom sharing, collective wisdom sharing. Now, we have seen over the last 30 years the erosion of learning in the workplace. It's, didn't happen with COVID. If you look at the, even the numbers, the investment that companies used to put into learning on the job, and the erosion of that is staggering. So you've seen the loss of apprenticeship, the loss of learning, and now the loss of mentorship and those touch points and observation. Thing I hear most of, most, most complaint, the biggest complaint I hear about young people is, "Why can't they just pick up the phone?" Because many of them didn't have a landline at child- childhood. They didn't have what you and I had, which was that was the only way we could speak to our friends, and we'd phone up our, our, our friends and speak to their parents first. So that formality was built in. But they're not seeing you do it, and you're not giving them the time to learn from you and see you do it, and then you're not giving them the time to do those low-stakes phone calls before they do the big-ass scary phone call to the big client. So that, even learning those basics of professional etiquette aren't, aren't happening, so that collective wisdom. But also in the age of AI, what you need is those digital natives, they need to be teaching the elders. So that, that collective wisdom doesn't just flow down the organization, it has to now flow up. So we're talking care, collective wisdom, intergenerational sharing of learning, and then the third thing is that communication. And I know you talk beautifully about this, this active listening, this pr- this clarity, uh, in communication. And one of the things that I see companies suffer from is everyone's trying to be too nice. "Oh, I didn't wanna give feedback because I didn't want to upset her in her annual review," or, you know, "I don't wanna tell them to not wear a hoodie. They should know." There's a lack of clarity in people, in how people communicate.

Simon Sinek 54:17 Yep.

Dr. Eliza Filby 54:18 And that is about listening and communicating. So going back to my original point is what we need here is companies to allow the humans to do-The things you can't count

Simon Sinek 54:33 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 54:33 And that connection point, that sense of belonging, and along with that, learning is the way that humans can thrive and connect-

Simon Sinek 54:42 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 54:42 ... and build trust, and clean up the kitchen after they've ye- made a cup of coffee-

Simon Sinek 54:48 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 54:48 ... and let AI do the thing that AI does best.

Simon Sinek 54:52 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 54:52 And that's why I'm excited about AI as an integration tool. I'm optimistic. I don't wanna ever answer an email again, thank you very much. But most people now see answering their emails as productivity. So let's kind of, uh, reimagine work as that point of human connection, as that point of, of learning, as that point of this is where I have low stakes, moments I'm taught, I'm nurtured. And I may not be here forever. I may not be here for five years. Can I learn as much as possible? Can I connect with the people around me as much as possible? Can I care for them? Can I show reciprocal responsibility to others? And let me be clear about that. That cannot be done in a fully remote workplace.

Simon Sinek 55:36 So I need... Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 55:36 It can be nurtured-

Simon Sinek 55:37 Amen for that, yeah. I think it's right, but it's hard.

Dr. Eliza Filby 55:41 Yes.

Simon Sinek 55:42 And I don't just mean hard to implement. Any company that would invest in that stuff has already made the decision that their people matter.

Dr. Eliza Filby 55:52 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 55:53 And a lot of companies are now, because of AI, exploring that maybe productivity is everything, and we don't have to rely on people as much because we can get all the productivity, productivity we want. And so I agree with you for the companies that are recognizing that people still matter in business. And I think the question is, is how do people matter at business, in business? Collective wisdom is a thing for now.

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:28 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 56:29 [laughs] It runs out.

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:31 Right.

Simon Sinek 56:31 You know, it's like AI people telling me, "You know, we won't need celebrities anymore because we can take the celebrities and we can, like, make movies with their voices and their names." I'm like, "Okay, but what happens when there's no more celebrities?" Like-

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:40 Yes

Simon Sinek 56:41 ... the celebrities had to do the work.

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:42 There's the end of the line there.

Simon Sinek 56:43 The celebrities had to do the w-

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:44 Yeah

Simon Sinek 56:44 ... they had to do the acting to become famous that you could then-

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:47 Yeah

Simon Sinek 56:47 ... license their voice and their face. I think that clearly jobs will be lost, just like the production line-

Dr. Eliza Filby 56:56 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 56:57 ... l- th- had us lose jobs. The internet had us lose jobs. Like, there will be job losses.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 57:03 There will also be job changes. You know, there's no accountants reading our taxes anymore.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:08 Mm.

Simon Sinek 57:08 It's all done by computers. But what we have is huge IT departments at internal revenue.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:13 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 57:13 That didn't exist before.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:14 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 57:15 So there's new jobs.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:16 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 57:16 And, you know, technologists love to tell us how 80% of jobs didn't exist 20 years ago, which means maybe 80% of jobs from this day on we can't even conceive of.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:24 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 57:25 Don't you remember, it was just a few years ago when ChatGPT first showed up that literally people were saying the next job is a prompter.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 57:34 And you can get a degree in prompting.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:37 Become a prompter quick.

Simon Sinek 57:38 Right? So, like, they were inventing jobs that seemed to make sense for, like, 20 minutes until the AI just got good enough that you didn't need a prompter anymore.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 57:45 So my point is, is like you can see us grasping at straws-

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:49 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 57:49 ... looking for the jobs that might be-

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 57:50 ... that some of them might stick and some of them won't.

Dr. Eliza Filby 57:52 Right.

Simon Sinek 57:53 My general sort of like, sort of snarky response to all of technologists is they always forget one thing, the people. Technology is a tool, and some of the tools we invent are astonishing and world-changing-

Dr. Eliza Filby 58:11 Uh-huh

Simon Sinek 58:11 ... and Earth-changing-

Dr. Eliza Filby 58:12 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 58:12 ... and generational changing, and all the rest of the stuff, but we never quite know how. And so I'm optimistic that things will be fine. Absolutely there will be job losses. There's no question.

Dr. Eliza Filby 58:26 Mm.

Simon Sinek 58:26 I don't think it'll be this great gutting of business, but I think it will be a reinventing of how businesses work and what is valued at work.

Dr. Eliza Filby 58:34 In-

Simon Sinek 58:34 And what people want from work.

Dr. Eliza Filby 58:36 Yes. I mean, I was... I, I think it's also how you frame it. It's alwa- always how you frame it. Um, for example, I was talking to a very,

Dr. Eliza Filby 58:44 very, um, senior managing partner at a law firm, one of the top law firms in London, and, um, I said, "You know, what are you, what are you thinking about this [laughs] AI stuff?" And y- and, and, and he said, "You know, I'm gonna tell you two things that seem bizarre and disconnected but totally are connected." He said, "We are actually employing fewer paralegals, okay? Some of that grunt work, been automated, okay? And we, more importantly, we trust it, okay? We're beginning to trust it."

Simon Sinek 59:11 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 59:12 "But we need people to oversee-

Simon Sinek 59:14 For now

Dr. Eliza Filby 59:14 ... the automation-

Simon Sinek 59:15 For now. Mm-hmm

Dr. Eliza Filby 59:16 ... right, of the grunt work. And the second thing is we have spent so much money on Taylor Swift's Eras tour." And I was like, "Eh?" And he said, "Yeah, we have realized that building relationships with our clients-"

Simon Sinek 59:31 There we go

Dr. Eliza Filby 59:31 ... okay, and particularly inviting their kids to the [laughs] Taylor Swift concert [laughs] is gonna be the defining trait of a great lawyer, okay? Now, a great lawyer is about judgment, of course. You're asking, and you're paying for that judgment, okay? And we can talk about the transition from a knowledge economy to a judgment economy in the age of AI. I always think this is the best question when we think about AI. What is the thing that AI is exposing? Not what is it doing. What is it exposing? Well, it's exposing, I think, how weak our education system is. It's exposing a lot of bullshit work, okay? But it's exposing, I think, right now, is the lack of human interaction at work. And why he was buying Taylor Swift concert tickets [lips smack] was because business is based on trust.

Simon Sinek 1:00:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:23 Okay?

Simon Sinek 1:00:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:24 And trust is built on human connection. That skill of building those contacts, that connection, and that trust-

Simon Sinek 1:00:33 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:33 ... can only be delivered by the human-

Simon Sinek 1:00:35 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:35 ... at a Taylor Swift concert. But, but the point is, is that-Two things. We're disrupting the path to mastery.

Simon Sinek 1:00:44 Amen.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:44 That is a serious-

Simon Sinek 1:00:45 Amen

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:45 ... serious-

Simon Sinek 1:00:46 That's a real problem

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:46 ... point. And there's all sorts of things that are happening now where you-

Simon Sinek 1:00:49 Amen to that

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:00:49 ... you are r- ridding the, the path of the grunt work, okay? I did a PhD. It was three years of grunt and grind, okay? It really was. But I learnt how to constantly question.

Simon Sinek 1:01:03 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:03 Right? That's what it was.

Simon Sinek 1:01:04 I wrote books.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:01:06 And it was the writing of the books that made me smarter-

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:08 Undoubted-

Simon Sinek 1:01:08 ... not the existence of the books

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:10 ... exactly.

Simon Sinek 1:01:10 Yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:11 Right? We are disrupting that path to mastery. And in, in, in some professions, that path to mastery is really clear and really rigid-

Simon Sinek 1:01:17 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:17 ... and will probably be disrupted at a slower pace-

Simon Sinek 1:01:20 Yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:20 ... than others.

Simon Sinek 1:01:21 Yep.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:01:21 So what is the route to mastery? What are you asking of young people? How are you also enabling your people that are halfway through that route to mastery and need to be agile? And then the second thing is you have to nurture your human skills within your organization. And, and when you have a scenario where your young lawyers are not emailing their seniors to ask for a holiday or telling them they can't do the work because they booked the theater that night, but are actually asking ChatGPT secretly, you have a disconnection problem. Because that Gen Z-er doesn't want the friction and the awkwardness of asking you face-to-face, "I can't do the work," or, "I need that day off on holiday." They're asking ChatGPT to script the email-

Simon Sinek 1:02:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:02:05 ... that then goes to you.

Simon Sinek 1:02:06 I c- you can start to spot them now. They all s- they all look the same.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:02:09 Right. And so you've got this, this real sort of challenge, is how do you nurture those human skills as a generation where they've actually been massively under-nurtured and are gonna have to be overly nurtured? And again, it goes back to my point, is, and organizations need to encourage the things that can't be counted. And a lot of this stuff is highly gendered. Let's not pretend that it's not. There's an evolution of what I call the team mum, and it's quite often a middle-aged woman in the office that everyone goes to for emotional support, administrative help, every question, and she's burdened and never rewarded, certainly never paid for the extra work she puts in. And quite often she gets burnt out and leaves, and when she leaves, a lot of things collapse. But those, um, human interactions and that collaboration and those human skills are not being nurtured in the way that they should.

Simon Sinek 1:03:01 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:03:02 So that's where I think

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:03:04 the generations genuinely have an opportunity of coming together.

Simon Sinek 1:03:07 Magic. You're wonderful.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:03:10 Thanks, babes. You're wonderful. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:03:12 You're really good. This is great. I mean, your s- your, your, I think your perspective is so helpful and so clear, and, uh, I'm really, really, really, really glad you came on.

Dr. Eliza Filby 1:03:24 Thank you.

Simon Sinek 1:03:25 Thanks. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.