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Why Young People Don't Have 'The Hunger' for Work (And What Leaders Need to Hear) | Dr. Eliza Filby

Admit it, you've complained about at least one other generation. Boomers, Gen X, Millennials, Gen Z—somehow, they all end up with reputations built around what's wrong with them. Dr. Eliza Filby has a different suggestion: _stop_ asking what's wrong with them. And_ start _questioning what world they were handed. Eliza is a contemporary historian, generations expert, and the author of _Sunday Times_ bestseller: _Inheritocracy._ And with more generations in the workplace than at any point in history, she is precisely the person we need to show us a new way to win… together. In this conversation, Eliza makes connections about how generational change is reshaping work, wealth, and modern life that I’d never thought to connect. She might just change how _you_ see the world (and people) around you. In this episode you'll learn: ➡️ Why calling Gen Z "entitled" is the wrong diagnosis (and what's really driving the behavior leaders complain about most) ➡️ How retirement planning and eldercare became the new midlife crisis ➡️ How the economy changed after 2008 + quietly rewrote the rulebook for every generation that followed ➡️ Why belonging is becoming increasingly rare (even though we need it) ➡️ Why Millennials + Gen Z are more likely become homeowners by being loyal to their parents than by being loyal to their jobs ➡️ 3 things no AI will replace in the workplace… ➡️ What’s driving hyper-individualism + how do we fix it We all may have strong opinions about one another, but it’s time to focus on building greater understanding. This conversation is a good place to start. This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + To buy a copy of Dr. Eliza Filby’s bestselling book _Inheritocracy: It’s Time to Talk About the Bank of Mum and Dad,_ head to: https://www.elizafilby.com/books Want to hear more from Eliza? Check out her _It’s All Relative_ Newsletter: https://www.elizafilby.com/newsletter + + + Chapters: 00:00:00 Rethinking The Generational Divide at Work 00:01:41 How Dr. Filby Became a Generations Expert 00:04:34 The Fragmentation of Generations + Shared Experiences 00:10:51 The Death of Shared Truth 00:14:32 Conspiracy Culture Infiltrates the Workplace 00:16:06 The End of Job Security + the Rise of the Solopreneur 00:20:33 The Inheritocracy: When the Bank of Mom and Dad Replaces Work Loyalty 00:28:24 Why Young People Don't Have 'The Hunger' 00:31:29 Changing Life Cycle: Delayed Adulthood + Pressured Midlife 00:35:57 Rise of Dual Income Households 00:41:39 Hyper-Individualism: From 12% to 80% Thinking They're Important 00:44:21 Dirty Kitchen Syndrome: Transactional Work Culture 00:46:58 AI as the Next Generation in the Workplace 00:51:14 Let Humans Do What Can't Be Counted 00:58:44 Taylor Swift Tickets + the Future of Business Relationships 01:00:44 Disrupted Path to Mastery + Nurturing Human Skills 01:03:04 How Can Generations Come Together? + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including _Start With Why,_ _Leaders Eat Last,_ _Together is Better,_ and _The Infinite Game._ + + + Website:http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes:https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast:http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram:https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin:https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter:https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek

Simon SinekhostDr. Eliza Filbyguest
Apr 28, 20261h 3mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:41

    Rethinking The Generational Divide at Work

    1. SS

      Young people come into your office and be like, "Give me a raise and you'll see what I can do."

    2. EF

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      And older generations are like, "Pay you before you do it? What?"

    4. EF

      [laughs]

    5. SS

      But I think they have it right. Because there's no guarantee that they're gonna have a job by the end of the year because of layoffs-

    6. EF

      The biggest question that leaders need to ask themselves is h- what am I offering in the age of uncertainty? If I can't offer stability, if I can't offer you that life script, what is it that leaders are offering their people?

    7. SS

      Are you a Boomer? Millennial? Gen Z? Wait, where's Gen X? Why did you leave out Gen X? Gen X always gets left out. Regardless of which generation you're from, we all complain about each other. I mean, they really are entitled. Or are they?

    8. EF

      Do you think we live in an inheritocracy?

    9. SS

      My guest, Dr. Eliza Filby, encourages us before we complain to consider through what lens does each generation see the world. Eliza is a generational historian in a world that has more generations working alongside each other than at any other point in history. In her bestselling book, Inheritocracy, Eliza challenges the idea that we even live in a meritocracy anymore, and what that means for every generation trying to get ahead. Eliza helped me see connections I never saw before-

    10. EF

      12

    11. SS

      ... what?

    12. EF

      12

    13. SS

      ... and realize just how much more difficult the world will be for our younger generations, and how the rest of us are gonna get ahead, too. Maybe, just maybe, we have to learn to win together. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

  2. 1:41 – 4:34

    How Dr. Filby Became a Generations Expert

    1. SS

      I was forced to be interested in generations. Like, I started talking about generations and generational differences at work-

    2. EF

      Mm

    3. SS

      ... not because I had a particular hankering, but because the single most common question I used to get, literally any size audience, whether it was public or private, was, "How do we lead Millennials?"

    4. EF

      Yes.

    5. SS

      And this was a bunch of years ago. You have sort of made a career out of understanding generations. H- how does somebody-

    6. EF

      Yes

    7. SS

      ... like wake up in the morning and be like, "You know, I wanna be a fireman. I wanna be, you know-"

    8. EF

      [laughs]

    9. SS

      "... I wanna be a generational expert." Like, how did you, like, where did that come from? [laughs]

    10. EF

      So, so I've invented a job title that didn't previously exist, and I have always been interested in change and how one is defined by time. There's lots of things that make us, us. You know, it's gender, it's, you know, racial identity, it's sexuality, it's hobbies. There's all sorts of things that make up our identity, but the time at which you enter the world-

    11. SS

      Mm-hmm

    12. EF

      ... is really important, too. And I, you know, was an academic and studied history, became a, a historian, taught at universities across the world, and found that there was a real disconnect between academic history-

    13. SS

      Mm-hmm

    14. EF

      ... right, the study of time-

    15. SS

      Mm-hmm

    16. EF

      ... and kings and queens and all, all those wonderful things, and actually sort of how people experience time. It was sort of me understanding my own family-

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm

    18. EF

      ... and how when we talk about generations, that being a category of analysis that actually historians really poo-poo and attack, but actually within the family makes total sense.

    19. SS

      Well, I mean, it's, it's clearly-

    20. EF

      It is the unit of time

    21. SS

      ... it's clearly defined.

    22. EF

      Right.

    23. SS

      Grandparents-

    24. EF

      Right

    25. SS

      ... parents, me.

    26. EF

      Exactly. So actually, generational analysis was something that as someone who came from a family who lived in, grew up in a multi-generational household, my father had, and his family had lived in the same house for 100 years. My family was from the same area for over 250 years. The sense of generational identity was so strong within me.

    27. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. EF

      And I was like, actually, I think there's some real sort of gaps missing in the analysis-

    29. SS

      Mm-hmm

    30. EF

      ... within the academic study of generations, but then on the societal level as well. It's full of stereotypes, it's full of generalizations, it's sort of lazy labels. You know, Gen Z are entitled. You know, Millennials used to be entitled, and then we had Gen Z. Gen X used to be entitled, they were called slackers, you know? Boomers were sort of defined as the, the first me, me generation. So there's lots of lazy generalizations, but actually what I'm really in- sort of interested in is how we're shaped by time.

  3. 4:34 – 10:51

    The Fragmentation of Generations + Shared Experiences

    1. SS

      in. When I studied social anthropology, um, we were taught that generations were about 20 years, and they're fuzzy, right?

    2. EF

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      And-

    4. EF

      Mm-hmm

    5. SS

      ... and so it was relatively clearly defined. You know, if you start with the Greatest Generation, the generation that lived through the Second World War-

    6. EF

      Mm-hmm

    7. SS

      ... then they came back from war and all got busy, and there was the baby boom.

    8. EF

      They got seriously busy, yep.

    9. SS

      So a generation starting to be born around 1945-ish.

    10. EF

      Yep.

    11. SS

      And so that lasted about 20 years, and then 19, mid-1960s-ish-

    12. EF

      Gen X

    13. SS

      ... you get Gen X. That's another 20 years.

    14. EF

      Yep.

    15. SS

      Then you get Gen Y or Millennials, but for s- but what I'm struggling with, and this is where I need your help, which is that clear definition of approximately 20 years marked by significant events.

    16. EF

      Mm.

    17. SS

      I don't know what happens before-

    18. EF

      Mm

    19. SS

      ... the, the, the Greatest Generation, quite frankly. We sort of start generations-

    20. EF

      Mm

    21. SS

      ... you know, after World War II. [laughs]

    22. EF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. SS

      And again, you could be leading edge, trailing edge, in the middle.

    24. EF

      Yep.

    25. SS

      But it, it bracketed us, and it doesn't mean that everybody's personality is the same. But for some reason now, generations are becoming, like, five years long, which-

    26. EF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    27. SS

      ... as an anthropologist, that doesn't sound right to me-

    28. EF

      Yeah

    29. SS

      ... that every time that something happens in the world, you don't suddenly have a new generation. There's starting to be too many of them.

    30. EF

      Right, so you've got Gen Z, and now you've got Gen Alpha, and actually you've got Gen Beta. You know, it's, it's, it's endless, and they're truncating-

  4. 10:51 – 14:32

    The Death of Shared Truth

    1. EF

      Right, and, and Benedict Anderson's book called Imagine Communities, why he emphasizes the rise of the newspaper as so formative, um, in the alignment of the rise of nationhood was that sense of shared information generates a shared identity and a shared sort of unity over what the nation is, what it stands for, and what we seek to protect. And so, uh, one of the things that you are seeing with the fragmentation of information-

    2. SS

      Yeah

    3. EF

      ... and we're about to see that accelerated with AI, is no one has a shared truth, for sure. No one has a s- a shared understanding of what the nation even is.

    4. SS

      This is so good.

    5. EF

      So you're seeing the decline of shared values, shared definitions, shared sense of trust and truth, but also the disintegration of trust at a, at an institutional level and, as I say, um, in various sort of arenas, whether it's the church, whether it's the workplace, whether it's, you know, any form of associational culture. There's all sorts of ways in which trust has been eroded.

    6. SS

      This idea of access into, uh, to information and shared information is part of what creates our national identity.

    7. EF

      Yeah.

    8. SS

      But if the media landscape-... is fragmented and diffused and now hyper politicized for financial gain.

    9. EF

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    10. SS

      For political, uh, not even for political reasons.

    11. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SS

      It's politically, uh, uh, fractured for commercial reasons.

    13. EF

      Yep.

    14. SS

      Which is the, you know, uh, let's be honest, if all of the newspapers were conservative, Rupert Murdoch would've started a liberal TV station. Like, it was purely commercial. And so what we end up having is fractured identity because of fractured media. Is that a fair statement?

    15. EF

      Uh, yes, but I also think let's not rose tint the past and that there was this wonderful time when we all believed the truth and we all had this shared truth and shared identity and shared moment. You know, there's a lot of conspiracy culture [laughs] um, before the internet. The internet didn't invent conspiracy, nor did it invent cynicism, um, and distrust in institutions. I think that there's an element here in what you say that's also slightly missing. The idea of the individual seeking out the truth or seeking out their own community, their micro community, or their own sort of narrative or worldview. One of the things that's really sort of typical of Gen Z, if we're gonna go into the generations, uh, [laughs] generalizations here, is that desire to seek out the information rather than just be passive consumers of information. It's, it really interesting. If you look at the data around which generation is most likely to spread fake news, it's Baby Boomers. Now, they grew up with verified media. They trust it.

    16. SS

      So if it comes in, it must be true.

    17. EF

      They grew up with, you know, three TV channels. Gen Z grew up with their own TV channel, but also-

    18. SS

      [laughs]

    19. EF

      ... deep fakes, the ability to edit, airbrushing, and, you know, spam.

    20. SS

      And they know how to do that too, yeah.

    21. EF

      Right? So this, this idea of, okay, I'm gonna seek out the truth-

    22. SS

      Yeah

    23. EF

      ... whatever that means to me, and however that aligns with me. We know we're living in an era where my truth is essentially the truth, right? [laughs] Then there's an empowerment to that, but then it also is often combined with a cynicism around official sources of truth, official media, and also a, um, I think a sort of unwillingness to maybe hear things that the algorithm tells you you, you don't believe in. I mean, you're seeing that play out in the workplace, if you wanna go there. But the conspiracy

  5. 14:32 – 16:06

    Conspiracy Culture Infiltrates the Workplace

    1. EF

      culture you're seeing in politics-

    2. SS

      Mm

    3. EF

      ... is infiltrating corporations.

    4. SS

      Say more.

    5. EF

      So if you go on Fishbowl or if you go on TikTok or if you go, frankly, any sort of forum where people are talking about their lives, you will find, okay, if you're in this job, are you earning this? Because I'm earning this. And if you're in this job, if they let you go because they, they let these people go, or you wanna hear what's happening in Australia, you know, and that's impacting what's happening in the US. What I'm saying is that conspiracy culture that's in politics is infiltrating the workplace when things go wrong. Internal communications with, is massively problematic because Gen Z are having those conversations, not down the pub or in the cafe. They're having them online, and that is a sort of contagious culture where people go, "Well, do you know what? I'm not gonna trust a word the CEO says. I'm not gonna trust a word HR is saying, because those people have laid off, and you see what they're saying on LinkedIn or Fishbowl." I think there's this, there's this sort of empowering nature to that sort of fragmentation of information and, and owning the narrative and finding out your truth, but there's also a conspiratorial sort of culture that's very corrosive to our politics, we know that, and very corrosive to other areas of, of, of people's lives.

    6. SS

      But don't conspiracy theories come out of uncertainty, fear? You know, uh, I mean, there's always conspiracy theories, of course. I'm not romanticizing that the past doesn't have them, and they can spread a lot more easily now. It's, it's seeds of doubt.

    7. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SS

      And we are living in times... And forget about

  6. 16:06 – 20:33

    The End of Job Security + the Rise of the Solopreneur

    1. SS

      political uncertainty, all that stuff. I'm talking about just the workplace, where-

    2. EF

      Yeah

    3. SS

      ... work used to be a, a safe place. You used to work your whole career in one company, and, and then that would be it. And then public companies started embracing redundancies and mass layoffs as a means of balancing the books at the end of the year. And so work no longer became stable, which it didn't matter how hard you worked, it wasn't a meritocracy. We missed our arbitrary projections. Sorry, you get to lose your job. And it was always considered, okay, well, public companies are unsafe, but private companies are safe. And then the rise of venture capital-

    4. EF

      Right

    5. SS

      ... and the pressures from another investor class now creates, you know, cost-cutting as a mechanism to protect the investor's investment, not the company's-

    6. EF

      Right

    7. SS

      ... wellbeing. And so now you're not safe in a public company. You're not safe in a private company. And I see younger people now who are fashioning their own careers-

    8. EF

      Mm

    9. SS

      ... with multiple kinds of gig e- gig experiences. Like, I know one woman, she's a comedian, she's a tour guide, she's a something else. Like, she's got-

    10. EF

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... three or four things going on.

    12. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      And they all pay a little bit, and she can put together an income through all of it, but she's doing it her way. And it's not because she's, like, dreamed of being her own boss one day.

    14. EF

      Right.

    15. SS

      And I'm seeing more and more of young people being very, very open to the uncertainty and the craziness of an entrepreneurial or solopreneur life, but they've got a little bit here and a little bit there. It's not like, "I'm gonna start a business to do this," or, "I'm g-

    16. EF

      Yeah

    17. SS

      ... it's got, they got a little bit of everything going on.

    18. EF

      Right.

    19. SS

      And I think it's in response to the total lack of security that is offered by any company now. It makes sense to me why we would see a rise of conspiracy theories, not just because media spreads it more easily, which is definitely a factor, but also that there's just more insecurity in the system.

    20. EF

      And, you know, amen to all of that. And I, and I think the biggest question that leaders need to ask themselves... is h- what am I offering in the age of uncertainty? If I can't offer stability, if I can't offer you that life script, what am I offering you?

    21. SS

      Exactly.

    22. EF

      Am I offering you a place to learn? Am I offering you a, a place to belong? Am I offering you a place that'll be one step before you make the big step? What is it that leaders are offering their people? Because you're absolutely right. What we have seen is the gradual, and it's not sudden, it's gradual erosion of the narrative we were told.

    23. SS

      Yep.

    24. EF

      And I'm a Millennial, right? I was told, "Go to university. Do well in school. Get to university. Get on a professional track, and access to financial stability, home ownership, and that pathway to retirement-

    25. SS

      Just like the previous generations

    26. EF

      ... will be there."

    27. SS

      Yeah.

    28. EF

      Will be there.

    29. SS

      Yeah.

    30. EF

      Okay? My mom worked for the same company her entire working life.

  7. 20:33 – 28:24

    The Inheritocracy: When the Bank of Mom and Dad Replaces Work Loyalty

    1. EF

      the family now offers the stability that work used to. You are-

    2. SS

      Which is why young people-

    3. EF

      Right

    4. SS

      ... there's no shame in moving back home-

    5. EF

      Right

    6. SS

      ... in your 20s, even 30s.

    7. EF

      Right.

    8. SS

      Like, my generation looks at that and be like, "What?"

    9. EF

      Well, let's, let's put it a different way, 'cause you're absolutely right. The Bank of Mum and Dad is offering the stability that the corporation never used to, right? So I say to leaders all the time, "You know, you do realize that your employees are more likely to get on the housing ladder by being loyal to their parents than being loyal to you." So how, then, do you adapt your leadership, your company culture, your raison d'être as an organization-

    10. SS

      Yeah

    11. EF

      ... in that economy, right?

    12. SS

      Yeah.

    13. EF

      Number one. Number two, you are seeing the rise not just of, of family support, but as you've alluded to, solopreneurship. And I think there's a real distinction. I think we casually say we're in this culture of entrepreneurship in the gig economy. I think we're actually seeing squiggly careers-

    14. SS

      Yep

    15. EF

      ... that are non-linear.

    16. SS

      Yep.

    17. EF

      But also solopreneurship, because that comedian that you talked about doesn't wanna employ a team.

    18. SS

      Nope, nope.

    19. EF

      You know? And I-

    20. SS

      Zero

    21. EF

      ... and I-

    22. SS

      And I, I'm thinking of literally three or four people off the top of my head who have gone the solopreneur way, have no desire to have employees.

    23. EF

      Right.

    24. SS

      But they are making their own way.

    25. EF

      And, and that was me five years ago. I now have a team. I call myself a reluctant entrepreneur [laughs] 'cause I-

    26. SS

      But that was by accident

    27. EF

      ... I'm learning. I'm so learning.

    28. SS

      Yeah.

    29. EF

      I'm learning every day how to be a leader. But I'm, I'm learning how to be a g-

    30. SS

      It's hard, isn't it?

  8. 28:24 – 31:29

    Why Young People Don't Have 'The Hunger'

    1. EF

      the thing I hear most from companies is, "Why don't young people have the hunger?" The hunger. It's always the hunger, okay?

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EF

      And I'm like, "How do you treat your kids? How, [laughs] how do you parent? How do you parent?"

    4. SS

      Well, I bought them a house and a car.

    5. EF

      Yeah. [laughs] Did you buy them everything they asked for? We have a generation in Gen Z who've grown up looking at their parents going, "You worked really hard in a dehumanized workplace. You earned loads of money, and the rewards today aren't the same. And you're also gonna support me if you can."

    6. SS

      And I will leverage-

    7. EF

      The other-

    8. SS

      ... all of the guilt you have-

    9. EF

      [laughs]

    10. SS

      ... by working so hard and missing all of my school plays.

    11. EF

      [laughs] Right. So the, the thing-

    12. SS

      [laughs]

    13. EF

      The thing that's really ... I ran this focus group, fascinating focus group of, um, Gen Z young women who'd had professional mothers, right? And then we asked Gen X mothers who were still professional women, and the Gen Z daughters of professional mothers were like, "Do you know what? I don't wanna work as hard as my mother." The overriding conversation was not, "My mother was a feminist pioneer. She broke that glass ceiling. I wanna ape her example." It was, "She was really stressed even when she was on holiday." And then you asked, we, we asked the Gen X mothers. They weren't related, by the way. The Gen X mothers were, "My daughter ha- my daughters have a point. They all think I work too hard, and I think I did." And that, I, I know it, I feel it, I sense it, I'm a mother, is partly to do with mother's guilt, right, and these strange perceptions we have as mothers that we pretend we don't have a job, um, in front of our kids. But I think actually it's a broader question of the role that work plays in our lives, and what it used to play and what it does play now in what I call an inheritance economy. And I think-When, going back to the original point, leaders say, "Why don't people have the hunger [laughs] that young peop- why can't they put up, shut up, work their way up like I did?" Is because the economy isn't encouraging that. Actually, you want hunger, you want real hunger in your new recruits, find the people that are not being supported by the Bank of Mum and Dad, but they themselves are supporting their parents, because that's a large percentage of the population. And the real truth is, of course, is we've seen a decline of meritocracy, we've seen the closing of doors and, and increasingly, particularly with AI, the lack of access and the leverage that parents have in getting their kids jobs and opening those doors, and the rise of, of greater nepotism. Those people aren't getting through in a way that they used to.

    14. SS

      And it's an entirely new way of evaluating somebody, right? Like, evaluating what school you went to because your mum and dad paid, or evaluating, you know, the opportunities you had because your mum and ba- dad paid. We're l- we're actually potentially looking for the wrong behaviors if you want somebody who's got the grit, the push-

    15. EF

      Right

    16. SS

      ... whatever you're looking for.

    17. EF

      Right.

    18. SS

      That's super interesting.

    19. EF

      You know, I talk about sort of the rise of the inheritance economy in inheritocracy and the rise of, of the Bank of Mum and Dad.

  9. 31:29 – 35:57

    Changing Life Cycle: Delayed Adulthood + Pressured Midlife

    1. EF

      But there's actually a bigger story, because yes, money is cascading down the family tree, but, and this is the subject of my, um, my next book, and I'm researching it at the moment, is the, is our life cycle has completely changed. And the fact is, governments, um, financial institutions, educational institutions, um, haven't caught up. So we've delayed adulthood. We now have a slow, meandering path into adulthood. And that's partly to do with economic constraint, but it's also freedom. I didn't want kids at 21. Slower adulthood, pressured midlife. No one talks about this. When they... We fixate on living longer and longevity, but actually the life course has completely changed. So most people think they become an adult around the age of 30. It used to be 21, it used to be 18, it used to be 16, it used to be 13, if we're going right back. So this pathway into adulthood has changed. Midlife has become this pressured point. We don't talk about a midlife crisis anymore. That's very much a kind of '80s kind of masculine corporate sort of collapse. But now we talk about midlife crisis as, you know, Gen Xers right now, particularly Gen X women, are going through this midlife where they are squeezed between looking after their children, which is now a 30-year financial commitment, okay? But also caring for the elderly. You know, and eldercare now is a, as big a pressure as childcare on people, and actually quite often lasts longer in terms of that direct need to help your parents. And in an aging society, we need to think about not how aging societies impact the elderly, but how it impacts-

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm

    3. EF

      ... those in midlife.

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. EF

      And so we're getting this sort of really pressured midlife point where people are changing their retirement plans to get their kids through college, or coming out of work to look after their mum, you know? Your mother who has dementia, you could be looking after her for 20 years.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. EF

      And then, of course, this, this need to potentially work longer, or this desire to work longer, okay? So this, this fixed point of retirement is changing. But then also, what does retirement look like? Is it golf courses and cruises anymore? No.

    8. SS

      Starting another business for some people. [laughs]

    9. EF

      No, it's starting another business. It's having a complete-

    10. SS

      Yeah

    11. EF

      ... flowering of, of things that you wanted to do. You know, and for Millennials, you're not gonna wanna go to, you know, traveling in the way that Boomers have because you kinda did that in your 20s.

    12. SS

      Yeah.

    13. EF

      So what does retirement look like is, I think, super interesting. And then what does life look like when basically our minds and our bodies stop working? Because you're gonna need care, you're gonna need that community, you're gonna need that support.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. EF

      And you become reliant on others. So have you built that infrastructure financially? It's interesting, I was looking at the data on this last week, is that the ri- what you're seeing is the rise of multi-generational houses, homes in the US.

    16. SS

      Whose houses is everybody moving into?

    17. EF

      Mm. So if you look at Gen X, they're building multi-generational homes. With Millennials, at the moment you're seeing Millennials moving to where the Boomers are. Quite often the maternal grandparents, and the grandparents are doing childcare, and then obviously that care reversal process that happens in every family.

    18. SS

      Yeah.

    19. EF

      You know? And, and it happened with- within my own family when my father died.

    20. SS

      Your mum moved in?

    21. EF

      My mum moved in. We all took time off work to look after my dad. My dad s- when he was ill, said two things to me, which I reflect upon quite often because he was quite a brutal man, my dad. He kind of [laughs] spoke the truth harshly. And he was like, "I'm glad I had three daughters, not three sons." You know? And I was like, "Okay, Dad." [laughs] As we're slaving away, you know, looking after him.

    22. SS

      Well, I get that.

    23. EF

      And, and it... He was right.

    24. SS

      Yeah.

    25. EF

      He was right. And he also said, "I'm gonna make this quick."

    26. SS

      Wow.

    27. EF

      Yeah. And, you know, thinking about it sort of gets me highly emotional, but what he was basically saying is, "You've got better things to do."

    28. SS

      Like, "Thanks for looking after me, but-

    29. EF

      Yeah

    30. SS

      ... I, I, I got this." [laughs]

  10. 35:57 – 41:39

    Rise of Dual Income Households

    1. EF

      gives sort of due appreciation for is that Millennial couples are working in majority dual income households, right?

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EF

      And they're working twice as hard-... quite often to be half as rich as their parents. [laughs]

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. EF

      Dual income households are the norm now-

    6. SS

      Mm

    7. EF

      ... not the exception. And what we're really talking about is, and companies need to be thinking about this as well as, you know, couples themselves, is if women have stepped up financially in the home and contributing to the household finances, men have no choice, literally no choice, but to step up on the domestic front. And it's great because Millennial dads push more pushchairs, change more nappies, you know, spend more time with their kids than any other generation of fathers before them. It's not because they love their kids more.

    8. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EF

      Right? [laughs] Let's just be clear on that than any other generation of fathers.

    10. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EF

      It's because there is a requirement.

    12. SS

      Mm.

    13. EF

      There is a need in a dual income household for men to step up domestically. What you're not seeing to the same degree is men doing the eldercare in the same way that they're doing the childcare.

    14. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. EF

      And actually fundamentally, that's one of the biggest challenges I think that companies need to get their heads around-

    16. SS

      Mm-hmm

    17. EF

      ... is actually in an aging society, what's happening to your midlifers with those kinds of responsibilities, and are you promoting eldercare as much as you're promoting fatherhood in the workplace?

    18. SS

      What is your prediction for this young generation that's entering work?

    19. EF

      Mm.

    20. SS

      What is their identity? Where are they gonna get their belonging? You know, now they're being battered by messages of AI taking their jobs, whether it's true or not.

    21. EF

      Mm.

    22. SS

      You know, time will tell. You know, companies are already using AI as a justification to make layoffs, which I think is a bit premature.

    23. EF

      Mm.

    24. SS

      I, I don't believe them.

    25. EF

      Mm. Mm. Yeah.

    26. SS

      But that's a different conversation. The young generations that have been accused of being entitled, and I have my own sort of theories on that, um, which I can share with you quickly, which is it is an entitlement. That's how it does appear.

    27. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. SS

      You know? What I think that the corporate world is missing is that the young generation that enters the workforce, and has been for, you know, I'd say probably a good 10 years if not more, they're playing by the rules that companies set. So just as we were saying before, where in the past you could get a job and you could work there as long as you wanted to work there. They would look after you, and you would look after the company.

    29. EF

      Right.

    30. SS

      But now with the rise of mass layoffs to balance the books, I can't rely on the fact that I'm gonna have a job, so if you're offering me no loyalty, I offer you no loyalty.

  11. 41:39 – 44:21

    Hyper-Individualism: From 12% to 80% Thinking They're Important

    1. EF

      No, no, no, you're absolutely right, and I, I'm, uh, the word I wanna kind of interrogate is transactional, 'cause I think it's the right word. So in, in the 1950s in the US, there was this great psychologist that, that ran this survey, and it was asking people in 1952, "Do you think you're an important person?"

    2. SS

      [laughs]

    3. EF

      Do you think you're an important person, Simon? [laughs]

    4. SS

      I think I, I would be curious-

    5. EF

      I do

    6. SS

      ... I-

    7. EF

      You're very important

    8. SS

      ... that is very nice of you.

    9. EF

      You're very important.

    10. SS

      Well, if you said it, who am I to disagree?

    11. EF

      Right. [laughs] Okay.

    12. SS

      I mean, you're the PhD. I'm not.

    13. EF

      What percentage of people in the US, right?

    14. SS

      Yeah. I think Americans think they're more important than-

    15. EF

      Nat- Right, in 1952-

    16. SS

      Yeah

    17. EF

      ... said they were very important.

    18. SS

      Yeah. I'm gonna say it's d-High above 50%

    19. EF

      No

    20. SS

      Re-

    21. EF

      12%.

    22. SS

      What?

    23. EF

      12%, right? The survey was run again in 1990.

    24. SS

      Okay.

    25. EF

      And let me just be clear, right?

    26. SS

      [laughs]

    27. EF

      Millennials weren't in the group.

    28. SS

      Right, right.

    29. EF

      Gen Z weren't even born or conceived. What percentage of people in the US-

    30. SS

      Go on. Go on. I can't even guess

  12. 44:21 – 46:58

    Dirty Kitchen Syndrome: Transactional Work Culture

    1. EF

      at data at communal spaces at work, kitchens. So what you've seen post-COVID, and COVID's I think a really important demarcation here, is the decline of people cleaning up after themselves in the communal kitchen. So the coffee cup-

    2. SS

      Whoa

    3. EF

      ... you use. You know, cleaning the microwave if your soup goes everywhere. People aren't cleaning up after themselves in the communal spaces at work.

    4. SS

      Whoa.

    5. EF

      Now, it could be that obviously there's workers in there that are c- you know, cleaners that are clean-

    6. SS

      So what?

    7. EF

      But it's not. It's not, because there's always been office cleaners. It's because people have a much more atomized view of the world, but an increasingly transactional view of work. And it's not just because the contract is broken. It's also because of a hyper-individualized culture.

    8. SS

      Wow. Yeah.

    9. EF

      Now, COVID created, obviously, this enforced, um, remote working scenario.

    10. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. EF

      Many of whom entered the workforce, that was their first experience of work, staring at a green dot 12 hours a day. Those people are now, you know, managers, and some of them are now leaders, right? They were never sort of, you know, baptized in good management and good leadership because they were living through a global crisis. But you have COVID, and now we have hybrid and remote working. And so those points of connection, those points of low-stakes socialization in the workplace have completely gone, which is why, you know, I spend a lot of my time helping companies not just help leaders understand their young people and go, "Look," you know, "stop being scared of them. They're understandably this way," but helping young people understand what does reciprocal relationships and dynamics and responsibilities look like in the workplace? Because you are just thinking about I. You are not thinking about we. And if I, if I just focus on leaders, helping them-

    12. SS

      Sure

    13. EF

      ... because it's a combination-

    14. SS

      Sure

    15. EF

      ... of listening to what's your irritations. What are your thoughts? What's your challenges in your daily life? What's your, you know, your needs, wants, and desires? Let's get that out. Let's get out your moans. But then let, let me tell you what your leaders are saying about you, and let me tell you how you can have the confidence to ask the right questions, how you can just in a moment switch people's expectations of you or how they give you feedback, you know? And so we do it in a, a real-world way and help them understand that it's not just I, it's we. I think this is all about power.

  13. 46:58 – 51:14

    AI as the Next Generation in the Workplace

    1. EF

      Now, we have had, pretty much throughout history [laughs] Marx would concur, um, a power balance that swings-

    2. SS

      Yeah

    3. EF

      ... between workers and employers, right?

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    5. EF

      And post-COVID, that pendulum swung in favor of employees.

    6. SS

      Yep.

    7. EF

      And now it's swinging back-

    8. SS

      Yep

    9. EF

      ... to employers. You have this new generation in the workplace, and they're really keen. They work throughout the night. They sometimes get things wrong. But do you know what? They're really praising of you and everything you do, and it's Gen AI. Because Gen AI is the next generation in the workforce. Gen AI is the plucky young intern [laughs] who's doing all the work at double speed. They sometimes get things wrong, um, but they're always wanting to please you. And so I think a really useful way of thinking about this, all generations in the workplace, is AI is the latest generation in the workplace that needs to be integrated, that needs to be put in its place [laughs] that needs to be managed, just as previous generations have.

    10. SS

      All right, you had me hook, line, and sinker for so long. I completely agree with you in terms of the ... And that's what triggers me, like, people that don't know that there's other people in the world. It drives me nuts.

    11. EF

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. SS

      It drives me absolutely nuts.

    13. EF

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. SS

      Right?

    15. EF

      That's horrible

    16. SS

      ... and, uh, you know, in, in every respect.

    17. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SS

      Sitting in a restaurant, I actually talked to a guy who, he's a restaurant owner, and he was telling me that his business is down.

    19. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SS

      His restaurant is full, but his business is down. Because at the end of the meal, they've all paid the check-

    21. EF

      Right

    22. SS

      ... and then they all sit there on their phone after the meal-

    23. EF

      Oh

    24. SS

      ... and all go through all their texts and start checking their Instagrams and all the things that they've missed for the whatever hour that they were sitting in the restaurant, and he, he, he'll lose 20 minutes.

    25. EF

      Wow.

    26. SS

      So he gets fewer turns on his tables.

    27. EF

      Wow.

    28. SS

      Not order another drink, nothing.

    29. EF

      No.

    30. SS

      And so he, he's making less money with a full restaurant. My rule is, and all my friends know this, which is you can stay in the restaurant as long as you want. The minute you pay the check, the contract is complete. There's an exchange of consideration. You leave. That's the deal. You make room for another person.

  14. 51:14 – 58:44

    Let Humans Do What Can't Be Counted

    1. EF

      ... the AI does the stuff that dehumanized the workplace.

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EF

      It's really good at output. We know it's really good at productivity. It's really good at clearing our inbox. It's really good at the stuff you can count. But actually what you wanna do is get humans doing the stuff that can't be counted. And what's that? What is the stuff that actually oils the wheels of an organization but is never awarded, you can never count it, and you never task someone with it, and it's definitely not under the line of productivity?

    4. SS

      A good cup of coffee.

    5. EF

      Three things.

    6. SS

      Oh, sorry.

    7. EF

      No, three things.

    8. SS

      [laughs]

    9. EF

      Three things. Listen up.

    10. SS

      Yeah, sorry.

    11. EF

      Three things. Number one, and we, you talk about this so brilliantly, and I think we are beginning to talk about this much more, thankfully, in the workplace, is care.

    12. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. EF

      That ability to understand, tap into, without prying, people's family situations or, you know, um, their wellbeing.

    14. SS

      Things, things, things, conversations that used to be completely forbidden at work-

    15. EF

      Having conversations that are-

    16. SS

      ... done skillfully

    17. EF

      ... that demonstrate-

    18. SS

      Yep

    19. EF

      ... care.

    20. SS

      Yep.

    21. EF

      Okay? Not procedures done by HR, not wellbeing initiatives done by external providers. Number two is that wisdom sharing, collective wisdom sharing. Now, we have seen over the last 30 years the erosion of learning in the workplace. It's, didn't happen with COVID. If you look at the, even the numbers, the investment that companies used to put into learning on the job, and the erosion of that is staggering. So you've seen the loss of apprenticeship, the loss of learning, and now the loss of mentorship and those touch points and observation. Thing I hear most of, most, most complaint, the biggest complaint I hear about young people is, "Why can't they just pick up the phone?" Because many of them didn't have a landline at child- childhood. They didn't have what you and I had, which was that was the only way we could speak to our friends, and we'd phone up our, our, our friends and speak to their parents first. So that formality was built in. But they're not seeing you do it, and you're not giving them the time to learn from you and see you do it, and then you're not giving them the time to do those low-stakes phone calls before they do the big-ass scary phone call to the big client. So that, even learning those basics of professional etiquette aren't, aren't happening, so that collective wisdom. But also in the age of AI, what you need is those digital natives, they need to be teaching the elders. So that, that collective wisdom doesn't just flow down the organization, it has to now flow up. So we're talking care, collective wisdom, intergenerational sharing of learning, and then the third thing is that communication. And I know you talk beautifully about this, this active listening, this pr- this clarity, uh, in communication. And one of the things that I see companies suffer from is everyone's trying to be too nice. "Oh, I didn't wanna give feedback because I didn't want to upset her in her annual review," or, you know, "I don't wanna tell them to not wear a hoodie. They should know." There's a lack of clarity in people, in how people communicate.

    22. SS

      Yep.

    23. EF

      And that is about listening and communicating. So going back to my original point is what we need here is companies to allow the humans to do-The things you can't count

    24. SS

      Yeah

    25. EF

      And that connection point, that sense of belonging, and along with that, learning is the way that humans can thrive and connect-

    26. SS

      Yeah

    27. EF

      ... and build trust, and clean up the kitchen after they've ye- made a cup of coffee-

    28. SS

      Yeah

    29. EF

      ... and let AI do the thing that AI does best.

    30. SS

      Yeah.

  15. 58:44 – 1:00:44

    Taylor Swift Tickets + the Future of Business Relationships

    1. EF

      very, um, senior managing partner at a law firm, one of the top law firms in London, and, um, I said, "You know, what are you, what are you thinking about this [laughs] AI stuff?" And y- and, and, and he said, "You know, I'm gonna tell you two things that seem bizarre and disconnected but totally are connected." He said, "We are actually employing fewer paralegals, okay? Some of that grunt work, been automated, okay? And we, more importantly, we trust it, okay? We're beginning to trust it."

    2. SS

      Yeah.

    3. EF

      "But we need people to oversee-

    4. SS

      For now

    5. EF

      ... the automation-

    6. SS

      For now. Mm-hmm

    7. EF

      ... right, of the grunt work. And the second thing is we have spent so much money on Taylor Swift's Eras tour." And I was like, "Eh?" And he said, "Yeah, we have realized that building relationships with our clients-"

    8. SS

      There we go

    9. EF

      ... okay, and particularly inviting their kids to the [laughs] Taylor Swift concert [laughs] is gonna be the defining trait of a great lawyer, okay? Now, a great lawyer is about judgment, of course. You're asking, and you're paying for that judgment, okay? And we can talk about the transition from a knowledge economy to a judgment economy in the age of AI. I always think this is the best question when we think about AI. What is the thing that AI is exposing? Not what is it doing. What is it exposing? Well, it's exposing, I think, how weak our education system is. It's exposing a lot of bullshit work, okay? But it's exposing, I think, right now, is the lack of human interaction at work. And why he was buying Taylor Swift concert tickets [lips smack] was because business is based on trust.

    10. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EF

      Okay?

    12. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. EF

      And trust is built on human connection. That skill of building those contacts, that connection, and that trust-

    14. SS

      Yeah

    15. EF

      ... can only be delivered by the human-

    16. SS

      Yeah

    17. EF

      ... at a Taylor Swift concert. But, but the point is, is that-Two things. We're disrupting the path to mastery.

  16. 1:00:44 – 1:03:04

    Disrupted Path to Mastery + Nurturing Human Skills

    1. SS

      Amen.

    2. EF

      That is a serious-

    3. SS

      Amen

    4. EF

      ... serious-

    5. SS

      That's a real problem

    6. EF

      ... point. And there's all sorts of things that are happening now where you-

    7. SS

      Amen to that

    8. EF

      ... you are r- ridding the, the path of the grunt work, okay? I did a PhD. It was three years of grunt and grind, okay? It really was. But I learnt how to constantly question.

    9. SS

      Yeah.

    10. EF

      Right? That's what it was.

    11. SS

      I wrote books.

    12. EF

      Yeah.

    13. SS

      And it was the writing of the books that made me smarter-

    14. EF

      Undoubted-

    15. SS

      ... not the existence of the books

    16. EF

      ... exactly.

    17. SS

      Yeah.

    18. EF

      Right? We are disrupting that path to mastery. And in, in, in some professions, that path to mastery is really clear and really rigid-

    19. SS

      Yeah

    20. EF

      ... and will probably be disrupted at a slower pace-

    21. SS

      Yeah

    22. EF

      ... than others.

    23. SS

      Yep.

    24. EF

      So what is the route to mastery? What are you asking of young people? How are you also enabling your people that are halfway through that route to mastery and need to be agile? And then the second thing is you have to nurture your human skills within your organization. And, and when you have a scenario where your young lawyers are not emailing their seniors to ask for a holiday or telling them they can't do the work because they booked the theater that night, but are actually asking ChatGPT secretly, you have a disconnection problem. Because that Gen Z-er doesn't want the friction and the awkwardness of asking you face-to-face, "I can't do the work," or, "I need that day off on holiday." They're asking ChatGPT to script the email-

    25. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    26. EF

      ... that then goes to you.

    27. SS

      I c- you can start to spot them now. They all s- they all look the same.

    28. EF

      Right. And so you've got this, this real sort of challenge, is how do you nurture those human skills as a generation where they've actually been massively under-nurtured and are gonna have to be overly nurtured? And again, it goes back to my point, is, and organizations need to encourage the things that can't be counted. And a lot of this stuff is highly gendered. Let's not pretend that it's not. There's an evolution of what I call the team mum, and it's quite often a middle-aged woman in the office that everyone goes to for emotional support, administrative help, every question, and she's burdened and never rewarded, certainly never paid for the extra work she puts in. And quite often she gets burnt out and leaves, and when she leaves, a lot of things collapse. But those, um, human interactions and that collaboration and those human skills are not being nurtured in the way that they should.

    29. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    30. EF

      So that's where I think

  17. 1:03:04 – 1:03:47

    How Can Generations Come Together?

    1. EF

      the generations genuinely have an opportunity of coming together.

    2. SS

      Magic. You're wonderful.

    3. EF

      Thanks, babes. You're wonderful. [laughs]

    4. SS

      You're really good. This is great. I mean, your s- your, your, I think your perspective is so helpful and so clear, and, uh, I'm really, really, really, really glad you came on.

    5. EF

      Thank you.

    6. SS

      Thanks. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.

Episode duration: 1:03:47

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