Ben Horowitz on How a16z Built a Venture Machine | Ep. 38

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Intro

   1. BHBen Horowitz0:00

      You know, when we started the firm, like, a big idea that we had was that venture capital was disappointing as a product for an entrepreneur. We always thought, "Wow, a much better product would be, give me, like, the network to be confident and the advice I need to run this fucking thing."

   2. JAJack Altman0:20

      [upbeat music] Ben, I'm really happy to be back here doing this. I got to be in the same room with Marc earlier in the year, and I'm, I'm really happy that you're doing this with me.

   3. BHBen Horowitz0:27

      I know. I'm glad to be here. This should be some fun.

2. 0:30 – 6:10

   Marc and Ben’s relationship

   1. JAJack Altman0:30

      Can we start with your relationship with Marc? 'Cause I think it's, like, a super unique thing-

   2. BHBen Horowitz0:34

      Yeah

   3. JAJack Altman0:34

      ... where you guys obviously work together, you know, running companies. You've built this firm together. You have a really unique relationship.

   4. BHBen Horowitz0:41

      Yeah.

   5. JAJack Altman0:41

      I can't think of that many examples where I feel like I've seen it in that sort of equal way for so long. Can you talk about it a little bit?

   6. BHBen Horowitz0:48

      We've been working together thirty years. Uh, and, uh, I, I, I would say we're, we're both different and complement... and, and the same, and so not too complementary, so that helps. Um, he's kind of like, uh, we're a little more like relatives than, than anything else at this point, you know, working together thirty years and so forth, so-

   7. JAJack Altman1:08

      Yeah

   8. BHBen Horowitz1:09

      ... uh, yeah.

   9. JAJack Altman1:09

      Like, are you friends outside of the work context? Or, like, what's like on a, on, like, a non-work situation, like, what is the interaction like?

   10. BHBen Horowitz1:15

       Yeah, we're, we're friends, but not like drinking buddies or something like that, right? Like, uh, we both work so much, we mostly talk about work anyway, and then, like, 'cause we're working together-

   11. JAJack Altman1:25

       Yeah

   12. BHBen Horowitz1:25

       ... we're talking about work. But it's kind of like the, the way I would describe it, um... And I, I want to say this without sounding-- I'm not making the, like, level comparison, like, I'm, uh, so I'm just saying the relationship comparison that I think-

   13. JAJack Altman1:40

       Mm-hmm

   14. BHBen Horowitz1:40

       ... is most similar that I've know about is kind of the Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones relationship, if you think about that. Um, and that, yeah, Marc's more Michael Jackson, like, he's a, a star of talents that nobody else has.

   15. JAJack Altman1:54

       Yeah.

   16. BHBen Horowitz1:54

       Like, nobody else has maybe, like, ever had, right? Like, you've talked to Marc. Um, to the point where, like, as a firm, we can just put him out there, and it's like-

   17. JAJack Altman2:02

       Yeah

   18. BHBen Horowitz2:02

       ... a magic trick. Like, he's like, bang, you know? And, you know, for me to, you know, my kind of relationship with him is, you know, like a Quincy Jones. It's not like I'm, uh, you know... I, I'm certainly not Michael Jackson, but I know enough. You know, Quincy Jones knew so much about music-

   19. JAJack Altman2:23

       Mm-hmm

   20. BHBen Horowitz2:23

       ... and so much about how you get the most out of somebody that talented. You know, that makes it work together, so I can surround Marc with the kinds of people, with the kinds of ideas, and so forth, that maximize him. And then, you know, like, he's makes me much, much better 'cause he's Michael Jackson, and, like, you're never, [chuckles] you're never gonna make Thriller if you don't have Michael Jackson.

   21. JAJack Altman2:46

       Yeah.

   22. BHBen Horowitz2:46

       And all the great albums Quincy Jones made, nothing was as big as Thriller, 'cause, you know, you need that. And so that's the kind of relationship. So we're very complementary. We're like in the same field. We do the... You know, like, uh, I- I'm an investor, he's an investor. Like, you know, we built the companies together, all that kind of thing. I'm an engineer. He's an engineer by training. But he's different than me, like, very different-

   23. JAJack Altman3:08

       Yeah

   24. BHBen Horowitz3:08

       ... still.

   25. JAJack Altman3:08

       Yeah.

   26. BHBen Horowitz3:08

       Uh, and I'm different than him. Um, and that, that's kind of what makes it work. We're enough the same and enough different. But I'm not saying that like I'm Quincy Jones.

   27. JAJack Altman3:16

       No, I get it.

   28. BHBen Horowitz3:17

       Like, the great Quincy Jones, rest in peace. I love him. [chuckles] I don't want people mad at me.

   29. JAJack Altman3:21

       Do you think about the firm similarly? Are you on different sides of certain ideas about the firm, and that's what has led to it working the way it has? Or is it like you believe the same things about what it's gonna take to win, and then you just have a different sort of daily skill set and set of work?

   30. BHBen Horowitz3:35

       No, we've had a lot of kind of arguments, and, and we, uh, we've had a lot of arguments, both on kind of which direction it should go and, and in what kind of timeframe. He has kind of more ideas about things we should do than I do just 'cause, you know, in running it, I try and keep it a little more contained.
3. 6:10 – 10:28

   Structuring the firm to attract great talent

   1. JAJack Altman6:10

      When you think about, like, um, the way that you've decided to structure-... I guess the company, the firm, you've basically, you know, and I, I got to speak with Martine, who's, like, amazing and could obviously, you know-

   2. BHBen Horowitz6:21

      Yeah

   3. JAJack Altman6:21

      -run and lead his own firm.

   4. BHBen Horowitz6:22

      Yeah.

   5. JAJack Altman6:23

      You've structured this in some way where you can have a certain caliber of GP.

   6. BHBen Horowitz6:28

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JAJack Altman6:29

      How have you thought about, like, what's like the, the narrative in your head as you've been thinking about, "Okay, this is what needs to be true to have people like Martine and Chris Dixon and so forth at the company?"

   8. BHBen Horowitz6:39

      You know, it's funny, um, Mike Moritz had this great quote years ago where he said, like: "The key to running a venture capital firm is to keep the principals from killing each other," right? [chuckles] Like, and that, you know, there's a lot of truth to that because you have very, very high-powered, like, super high IQ, disagreeable people who are the best VCs. I mean, like, that's, you know, you, you, you can't find- You can find a VC who you don't like, you can find a, a great VC who, you know-

   9. JAJack Altman7:07

      Mm-hmm

   10. BHBen Horowitz7:08

       ... maybe is a, a dick or whatever, but it's pretty hard to find one who you go like, "That guy's not smart."

   11. JAJack Altman7:13

       Can you be in a, a good, agreeable VC?

   12. BHBen Horowitz7:15

       [chuckles] You know, I don't know many. Um, so-

   13. JAJack Altman7:18

       You know Andy

   14. BHBen Horowitz7:18

       ... I think some are more agreeable than others.

   15. JAJack Altman7:20

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BHBen Horowitz7:20

       Uh, so I do think there is a kind. So the, to be kind of a long-term, like, all-time great VC, I think most of those end up being disagreeable because you really have to think about everything for yourself, and you can't... You know, you know, wanting to be liked, uh, can be a problem. However, like, there's a phase of VC that's this kind of heat-seeking phase.

   17. JAJack Altman7:45

       Yeah.

   18. BHBen Horowitz7:45

       Um-

   19. JAJack Altman7:45

       You could be a good, agreeable heat seeker.

   20. BHBen Horowitz7:47

       Yeah, you could be a good-

   21. JAJack Altman7:47

       In fact, it probably helps 'cause you just wanna be liked by all your peers in venture.

   22. BHBen Horowitz7:50

       I think the best heat seekers probably are agreeable.

   23. JAJack Altman7:52

       You're right.

   24. BHBen Horowitz7:52

       Um, so that, th- that kind for sure.

   25. JAJack Altman7:54

       Friends with everybody-

   26. BHBen Horowitz7:55

       Yeah

   27. JAJack Altman7:55

       ... want everybody to think they're smart all the time.

   28. BHBen Horowitz7:56

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. JAJack Altman7:57

       Yeah.

   30. BHBen Horowitz7:57

       But the truffle hunters, like, they're, they're all disagreeable.
4. 10:28 – 14:51

   Difference between execs and GPs

   1. JAJack Altman10:28

      Going back to the type of, like, VCs that you think can be good, and you're obviously, you know, it's not the only thing you do, but one of the things you do is you're managing these really good investors. Can you talk about the difference between managing, you know, these, like, very accomplished GPs versus, you know, managing execs in, like, an operating company?

   2. BHBen Horowitz10:46

      Yeah, it's like, I, I, I would say it's quite different in that, you know, look, good execs understand, [chuckles] um, one, the, the importance of chain of command. The, uh, y- you know, they, they're managers, they... A lot of them may be execution people, process people, you know, that kind of thing, as opposed to people generating a lot of ideas. Whereas every good investor is a massive idea generator. They, they don't necessarily, um, like rules [chuckles] or be willing to follow them. Uh, and so I think that the burden on everything making sense every step of the way, uh, is much higher. And then also, you really have to org- from an organizational design standpoint, you've got to minimize conflict, or, uh, it's gonna be complete chaos. So in, in a company, you can get-- like, there's always gonna be some cross-functional dependency in a company, and you have to live with it. And then s- through some combination of rules, process, and telling people, whatever, "Shut the fuck up, like, we're just gonna do it this way," you get there. Um, I think in a VC firm, you can tolerate much less of that. You know, like, if the org doesn't solve the conflict issue, like the ability to solve-

   3. JAJack Altman12:10

      Mm

   4. BHBen Horowitz12:10

      ... major conflicts one-off, uh, will cause a lot of issues.

   5. JAJack Altman12:14

      You're saying interpersonal conflict is worse in a venture firm?

   6. BHBen Horowitz12:17

      Yeah, much worse in that, um, both because of the-... personality types, and then you can really, like, wreck each other's businesses, right?

   7. JAJack Altman12:26

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BHBen Horowitz12:26

      Or each other's, you know, work in that, let's say, I'm a great expert in-- I'm Martine, and I know everything about AI and foundation models, and so forth, and I've gone through every single video model like there is, and I understand all the nuances and the strengths and the weaknesses, and so forth. And then, like, you know, me over here, um, who hasn't done any of that work but, like, found an entrepreneur that they like, who's doing something, and I go invest in that model, that conflicts Martine out.

   9. JAJack Altman12:57

      Yep.

   10. BHBen Horowitz12:58

       Like, he, he's gonna be beyond mad. [chuckles] Like, he's gonna, he's gonna wanna, like, murder the person.

   11. JAJack Altman13:04

       Yeah.

   12. BHBen Horowitz13:04

       I mean, like that-- it, it's such a bad problem, uh, to have conflict like that in a, in a venture capital firm. And you just have to have respect for the work that people are doing and design the firm in a way that all that hard work gets them to the end that they expected, and, like, that their own people don't undermine them and these kinds of things. So, like, the conflicts are extremely intense in that way.

   13. JAJack Altman13:27

       When you see, like, a real one, are you like, "I'm gonna let them figure it out," or are you like, "I'm gonna mediate this-

   14. BHBen Horowitz13:32

       No, no, no

   15. JAJack Altman13:32

       ... get to a resolution?"

   16. BHBen Horowitz13:33

       They're gonna figure it. [chuckles] My biggest thing is, like, sometimes they're too respectful of, uh, of me on that, but like, like, uh, I, like, I'll just resolve it. I need to resolve the conflict.

   17. JAJack Altman13:43

       What do you mean they're too respectful? They're like, if Ben's gonna stop fighting, it'll stop that.

   18. BHBen Horowitz13:46

       Like the, like, the worst conflicts we've had are ones that nobody brings to me. Like, and it'll be... like, it could be something very stupid and trivial, but they get so hot, uh, in, in VC.

   19. JAJack Altman13:56

       Is this between GC- GPs that you worry about it, or are you going inside team lead s- sort of org and working out their conflicts for them, or are you like, you need to run your own division or whatever?

   20. BHBen Horowitz14:07

       Like, sometimes there's something inside the, uh, uh, like a fund, but tho- those are pretty cohesive. 'Cause so, so we design them, um, like, every fund we have runs like, you know, what somebody might consider a little VC.

   21. JAJack Altman14:21

       Yep.

   22. BHBen Horowitz14:21

       Like, there's not more than five GPs.

   23. JAJack Altman14:23

       Yep.

   24. BHBen Horowitz14:23

       It's, it's pretty cohesive, so there's not that much contention. You get the contention when things scale-

   25. JAJack Altman14:28

       Mm-hmm

   26. BHBen Horowitz14:29

       ... um, and everybody's not talking to each other every day. Like, then, then that becomes a problem. So mostly, it's cross funds or cross-functionally or something like that, but, uh, it's very important to squash 'em in the... They're all kimchi problems. They're all the deeper you bury them, the hotter they get, right? Like, so there, there is no [chuckles] problem that gets better over time in terms of conflict in a VC.

   27. JAJack Altman14:49

       Yeah.

   28. BHBen Horowitz14:49

       It always gets worse.

5. 14:51 – 16:43

   Firm-wide guiding principles

   1. JAJack Altman14:51

      What are the things that, like, you then need to, like, give sort of guidance on, like, you and Marc, let's say, at a firm-wide level? Is it about overall, like, you know, deployment pace? Is it about s- like, structure? Is it about approach to the market? Like, what is the sort of broad intersection point across all the different funds?

   2. BHBen Horowitz15:10

      Yeah, I mean, some of it is just kinda general principles, things we believe in. So, you know, one, like, w- we have to t- make sure we're taking enough risk, make y- you know, like... A- and that usually comes of the form is, evaluate the entrepreneur and the company on the magnitude of their strength. Like, how good are they at what they're good at? Are they super world-class, or are they, you know, is this, like, the, the literally the best person in the world at doing this thing? Not on, oh, like, the monetization model doesn't make sense, or, like, they don't know anything about go-to-market, or they don't actually understand accounting. [chuckles] Um, you know, like, that's not ARR. Like, what the fuck are they talking about? Those things, like, you can always rule out a deal-

   3. JAJack Altman15:58

      Mm-hmm

   4. BHBen Horowitz15:58

      ... on weaknesses, and I think it's, it's always a mistake to rule out somebody who's truly world-class on a weakness, and then it's always a mistake to invest in somebody who's not truly world-class on a lack of weakness. And so a lot of the guidance is around ideas like that, you know, things that we believe where, you know, we're always like, "Okay, like, what can they do?"

   5. JAJack Altman16:22

      Mm.

   6. BHBen Horowitz16:22

      Like, let's focus on what they can do, not what they can't do, and see if that's in, worth investing in. And, and it's a, it's an important psychological thing 'cause, you know, we have so many, like, brilliantly analytical people who can find what's wrong with anybody. Um, and you know, I always remind [chuckles] them there's something wrong with everybody.

   7. JAJack Altman16:40

      Yeah.

   8. BHBen Horowitz16:41

      You just may not have been able to find

6. 16:43 – 20:11

   Scaling GPs vs small teams who concentrate

   1. BHBen Horowitz16:43

      it yet.

   2. JAJack Altman16:43

      When you think about, like, how you're deploying capital, it seems to me like, you know, you and... I would put, like, you and Sequoia in one shape, which is, like, there are many deals, and you've scaled up the number of great-- like, it's basically a game of how many GPs can you scale? 'Cause, you know, a GP can only do so many deals, and, like, how big can you make the teams? And your answer to that has kinda been, like, many funds, and then you can sort of, like, keep it together, and that's, like, one way-

   3. BHBen Horowitz17:08

      Mm

   4. JAJack Altman17:08

      ... to scale broadly. I'm sure you can kind of, like, adjust what I said. And then let's say there's another version, which is way fewer people with way more concentration, and let's call that, like, Thrive and Founders Fund and maybe Green Oaks or something like that.

   5. BHBen Horowitz17:22

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JAJack Altman17:22

      Maybe you would say that's not quite right, but directionally you kinda know what I'm getting at.

   7. BHBen Horowitz17:25

      Yeah. I mean, I think, um, they do some of both, and we do some of both-

   8. JAJack Altman17:29

      Of course

   9. BHBen Horowitz17:29

      ... but yeah, sort of directionally. I think that, like, a- again, for us, um, and what we want to accomplish as a firm, which is, again, like, making America the strongest country in the world technologically, the, the concept of traded approach just doesn't quite work with that mission. Um, and then-

   10. JAJack Altman17:48

       Why is that? 'Cause we just need more shots to build these companies?

   11. BHBen Horowitz17:51

       Well, I mean, you know, if you look at, like, you know, uh, a Founders Fund or Thrive, are both great firms. Um, you know, there, there are whole, like, sectors that they're not really in. There are entrepreneurs who could build something great that they're happy to miss 'cause, like, as long as they get, you know, the very biggest ones and so forth, and that's not really what we're about. Like, w- if, like, crypto is gonna be important to the, like, financial success of the United States or, like, the, uh, uh-... way AI, AI interacts with the economy and so forth, like, then we gotta-- we're in. Like, what are you talking about? We're gonna ignore that. We need to help that succeed. And like, and it turns out, in a sector like that, it's not just like funding entrepreneurs, it's like helping change the law and get the right policies in the country and these kinds of things. And so our model wouldn't let us ignore something that important. But if what you're trying to do is say, okay, of the like, five best companies of the decade, do I have big positions and enough of them?

   12. JAJack Altman18:56

       Yeah.

   13. BHBen Horowitz18:56

       That's-- Look, I think that's a good financial strategy. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, go get 'em.

   14. JAJack Altman19:02

       Yeah.

   15. BHBen Horowitz19:02

       I mean, like, it's good. Like, it's good that they're doing what they do. Um, we work with them on a lot of deals together, but it's just not who we are. Like, you have to be who you are.

   16. JAJack Altman19:09

       Is it the kind of thing where like, over time, there's no reason for somebody who's doing the sort of broad base of lots of Series A's and B's and, you know, that, that work? Is it just rational to, if you can raise the money, do billion-dollar checks into those companies when they're really running very far?

   17. BHBen Horowitz19:27

       If you look at it historically, like depending on the vintage, um, sometimes, [chuckles] that strategy of waiting for the things to get to the billion-dollar valuation is definitely the best strategy. But in other eras, like, that set of companies just all suck.

   18. JAJack Altman19:47

       Mm-hmm.

   19. BHBen Horowitz19:47

       And the actual-- all the good investments are in the A, in the seed round because new, something new is happening.

   20. JAJack Altman19:54

       Yeah.

   21. BHBen Horowitz19:54

       You know, like, uh, the world is changing, and, you know, the big SaaS companies, if you piled all your money in, like Tiger Global, and it did in twenty twenty-one-

   22. JAJack Altman20:02

       Yeah

   23. BHBen Horowitz20:02

       ... it didn't work out that well. Um, you know, you were kind of at the end of a cycle. Uh, that may work better now, um, we'll see.

   24. JAJack Altman20:09

       Yeah.

   25. BHBen Horowitz20:10

       TBD.

7. 20:11 – 23:45

   Why scale is so important in venture

   1. JAJack Altman20:11

      Um, obviously, you were raising, you know, big funds, and you've also like, it's worked. You know, it's like on some level, like if I think about, like when you start any company-

   2. BHBen Horowitz20:20

      Mm-hmm

   3. JAJack Altman20:20

      ... or maybe any venture firm, too.

   4. BHBen Horowitz20:21

      Yeah.

   5. JAJack Altman20:22

      It's like you sort of need to have something that you believe that not everybody believes, and that needs to be right. And I would say, like, there's probably multiple, but like, clearly, one of yours that you got to early was like, venture's gonna scale.

   6. BHBen Horowitz20:33

      Yeah.

   7. JAJack Altman20:33

      And, you know, it looks like that's worked really well so far. Can you talk about, like, the thinking behind why scale is so important and like, why you and Marc have believed that it's like the dominant strategy?

   8. BHBen Horowitz20:45

      Yeah. So there-- I, I think there's a couple of different dimensions to it. One is like, what is the market of technology companies? Um, and I think that's really important. And Marc wrote a piece in, I think, two thousand and eleven, called Software is Eating the World. The conventional wisdom in VC at the time was, look, there's fifteen companies in any given year that ever get to a hundred million in revenue, and the whole game is getting into as many of those fifteen as you can. And so why have a big firm if there's only fifteen companies to invest in, [chuckles] right? Like that, that doesn't make any sense. You're just gonna chase a lot of bad stuff. But what he thought then and, and kind of the bet that we made was, well, if software eats the world, it's not gonna be fifteen, it's gonna be a hundred and fifty or two hundred, and that's what it's become. Uh, and so to get into that many great companies every year, you clearly need to be of a bigger size. Like, there's just no way to address the market-

   9. JAJack Altman21:40

      Mm-hmm

   10. BHBen Horowitz21:40

       ... if you're five guys. That's not possible. I think the more important part of it, which is like a big rationale for starting the firm, was if you're an entrepreneur, um, what do you need? And you need, like, you need to be important in the world, uh, which means, okay, how do I, you know, how, how do I talk to big-time CEOs? How do I get in front of big customers? How do I go international? How do I deal with the US government if I'm in AI or crypto, which is like everybody now?

   11. JAJack Altman22:10

       Yeah.

   12. BHBen Horowitz22:11

       Like, how do I do all that?

   13. JAJack Altman22:12

       How do you have employees take you seriously?

   14. BHBen Horowitz22:13

       Yeah, how do I have employees take me seriously? Like, how do I find all these employees? All these kinds of things. There's a lot of capability that you need, and if we can just bring that, you know, that's a much better product than, "I'm a smart guy." [chuckles]

   15. JAJack Altman22:27

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BHBen Horowitz22:27

       "I'll take you to coffee. I can give you some ideas about your product for two months until, like, I'm irrelevant on that-

   17. JAJack Altman22:33

       Yeah

   18. BHBen Horowitz22:33

       ... 'cause you've heard all my ideas." And so I think that, like, the, the product of a VC that has a platform and capabilities-

   19. JAJack Altman22:42

       Mm

   20. BHBen Horowitz22:42

       ... and so forth is so mu-- You know, speaking as a, as a former entrepreneur, I needed all that, you know? And, uh, and to, to me, that's a more important part, and we kinda see that every day. So-

   21. JAJack Altman22:55

       Yeah

   22. BHBen Horowitz22:55

       ... so that, that part of the idea was really good. Now, the, there is a challenge on, like, mechanically, how do you do that? How do you build a big VC that's still, like, very, very good at every part of it?

   23. JAJack Altman23:05

       I want to pull open a couple of those. Um, so one, obviously, that seems like a no-brainer is, like, the big brand and, like, this idea that you, like-

   24. BHBen Horowitz23:12

       Yeah

   25. JAJack Altman23:13

       ... give the company your brand or you lend it to them until they're big enough, and then, you know, they get bigger-

   26. BHBen Horowitz23:18

       Yeah

   27. JAJack Altman23:18

       ... and that improves back to the firm, and it's like this positive flywheel. That seems like a big one. These relationships, I think, like you're talking about, are very hard to get if you're, like, a first-time founder. You don't have the relationships with the government, whatever.

   28. BHBen Horowitz23:28

       Just really hard to get. Yeah, yeah.

   29. JAJack Altman23:29

       Yeah.

   30. BHBen Horowitz23:29

       Like, "Hey, I just started a company."
8. 23:45 – 26:58

   What platform services work and don’t work

   1. JAJack Altman23:45

      bit.

   2. BHBen Horowitz23:45

      Sure.

   3. JAJack Altman23:45

      What are the platform services that you're most confident work, and then what are the ones that you're least confident work?

   4. BHBen Horowitz23:50

      I actually think they all work 'cause we've kinda moved away from the ones that didn't work.

   5. JAJack Altman23:55

      Can you talk about some of the ones that, you know, that's fine?

   6. BHBen Horowitz23:57

      Yeah, I mean, like, so we did some things early, um, where we were publishing sort of... Y- you know, we had this thing where we were gonna, um, have sort of general research ideas or whatever, you know, for the entire, like, start-up community. But, like, it, it turns out that that works really well if you do it for crypto or if you do it for AI. You know, like, we try out all the models-

   7. JAJack Altman24:25

      Mm

   8. BHBen Horowitz24:25

      ... and so forth, you know, like, and we talk to the companies all the time about, okay, like, which model is best at which, and then we, you know, host models, and we try stuff out on them, and so forth. So, like-... from a tool evaluation standpoint, like we can just accelerate you and-

   9. JAJack Altman24:39

      Yeah

   10. BHBen Horowitz24:39

       -tell you exactly what's what. Doing that in general, well, like, uh, a lot of things I think that we tried to do across domains, uh, ended up being not as interesting.

   11. JAJack Altman24:49

       Yep.

   12. BHBen Horowitz24:50

       And that's, you know, that's getting true for talent as well. So like, yeah, a CFO is a CFO for the most part, like a hardware CFO is different than a software CFO, that kind of thing. But that's easy. But like a, an AI researcher-

   13. JAJack Altman25:03

       Yeah

   14. BHBen Horowitz25:03

       -is pretty different than a full stack engineer. [chuckles]

   15. JAJack Altman25:06

       Totally.

   16. BHBen Horowitz25:06

       Like that's a different talent pool. They run in different circles. Their comp structures are totally different, and so you have to specialize.

   17. JAJack Altman25:14

       I mean, the recruiting stuff is probably-

   18. BHBen Horowitz25:16

       Yeah

   19. JAJack Altman25:16

       ... at this point for me, just talking to, you know, mostly Series A companies, I think recruiting is, like, the number one thing, they'll just, like: "Help me recruit."

   20. BHBen Horowitz25:23

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   21. JAJack Altman25:23

       Have you found that, like, you can effectively aim, you know, recruiting teams at companies for specific periods of time, and-

   22. BHBen Horowitz25:30

       Yeah, I think it helps to get the seed corn, right? Like, so a lot of what you're trying to do is, can you get the first three to five people in who are stellar and then have networks where you want to draw from? Who your VC is actually matters a lot on that, right? To an engineer, like-

   23. JAJack Altman25:49

       It does

   24. BHBen Horowitz25:50

       ... cares about like, okay, is this person going away? Is there... Are the-- Is there more money behind this? Have I heard of them?

   25. JAJack Altman25:55

       Yeah.

   26. BHBen Horowitz25:56

       That kind of thing. So that's a, that's, that's an important feature. I think every company has to ultimately get hyper-proficient at, like, recruiting, closing, interviewing, onboarding, training, or they're never gonna be a good company, so-

   27. JAJack Altman26:15

       You're saying to some degree, we're like, you can't do it all for them, or they'll never build the muscle?

   28. BHBen Horowitz26:18

       Yeah, at some point, uh, like, you'll end up retarding their growth if you put in, like, their entire team. Now, we've put in-- like, we've probably helped through our network, like Databricks hire, like over a hundred people for sure, over time.

   29. JAJack Altman26:33

       But it's like they clearly have their own muscle.

   30. BHBen Horowitz26:34

       But not in the beginning, but they're really good at recruiting-
9. 26:58 – 34:56

   Ben’s view on board seats

   1. BHBen Horowitz26:58

      thing.

   2. JAJack Altman26:58

      How about your view on, like, um, board seats and board membership and, like, how important that is, and maybe to, like, put, like, bookends on what people out there will believe?

   3. BHBen Horowitz27:08

      Yeah.

   4. JAJack Altman27:09

      You've got, you've got some that are like, "Our selling point is we don't take a board seat, we'll leave you alone, we don't-

   5. BHBen Horowitz27:13

      Yeah

   6. JAJack Altman27:13

      ... we're not gonna do anything." You've got some that are sort of like, you know, breathlessly talking about this, you know, spiritual connection between the board member and the founder, and there's a lot there. Like, where do you fall in this? How do you think about what, like, the board member-

   7. BHBen Horowitz27:26

      [chuckles]

   8. JAJack Altman27:26

      -should be?

   9. BHBen Horowitz27:27

      I probably don't believe in the spiritual connection. Um...

   10. JAJack Altman27:30

       [chuckles] I was sort of maybe embellishing a little bit, but you know what I'm talking about.

   11. BHBen Horowitz27:32

       So first of all, boards are important for founders. So, like, the idea that you're gonna run without a board, um, after you've, like, given equity to employees and sold equity to people who are not you, is the most dangerous fucking idea in the world. Because if you know anything about securities laws, the only protection you have as CEO from going to jail or getting personally sued is that you run material ideas through the board. That's a massive protection. Like, if I go: "Well, I want to give a, you know, two percent grant to this person in the company," you have to realize your fiduciary to, like, the rest of the company that you're diluting is in question right there, just that. Um, if you run that by the board, it's all good.

   12. JAJack Altman28:25

       Yeah.

   13. BHBen Horowitz28:25

       You're completely protected, no problem. If you just make that on your own, somebody wants to sue you, they're gonna win.

   14. JAJack Altman28:32

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BHBen Horowitz28:32

       Like, you, you really have very little defense at that point. So the idea that, like, you're not gonna have a board is a bad idea. Like, I, I, I think any-- once you start [chuckles] um, not owning the company a hundred percent, you've got to have a board. Like, that's just how it goes. You know, we went back and forth on this, like, okay, how much does, like, the board actually help the company? And I would say, so there's a couple of interesting things. So the Y Combinator people actually said, pr- it, it must have been around like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, they came to us, and they were like: "We did, like, an analysis of all our companies who had boards and didn't, and the ones that didn't have boards all failed. Like, they didn't do well. Like, as a cohort, the ones with boards did much better." Now, like that, those- there's confounding factors, right? Like, but, you know, in their view, the other thing was, like, just in observing the companies, the rhythm of having to tell somebody outside of the company what you're doing every three months or every two months-

   16. JAJack Altman29:30

       Creates internal pressure

   17. BHBen Horowitz29:31

       ... is very valuable. It's just like a good organizing-

   18. JAJack Altman29:33

       Mm-hmm

   19. BHBen Horowitz29:34

       ... principle to keep yourself on track. So I, I, I believe in that. Uh, and then I do think certain kinds of board members can be very, very impactful at different points in the company. Ju- just with myself, like, right now, if Ali kicked me off the board at Databricks, I'm not sure that, like, they would do much worse. Like, I, I, I honestly don't. However, um, there were times, [chuckles] um, for example, the Series C, I led the Series A, NEA led the Series B. Nobody would do the Series C of that company.

   20. JAJack Altman30:07

       Mm-hmm.

   21. BHBen Horowitz30:07

       Pete Sunsimie and I led that one, too. NEA and us led the C in addition to the B and the A. If I'm not on the board, like, I don't think there's any way that's happening. Uh, so that's, like, a, an existential issue. Second thing, you know, they had an offer to buy the company for, like, uh, I think it would have netted out to about four billion dollars in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, something like that. And had I not been on the board, they-

   22. JAJack Altman30:32

       They would have sold

   23. BHBen Horowitz30:33

       ... I think they would have sold.

   24. JAJack Altman30:33

       That's a big deal.

   25. BHBen Horowitz30:34

       Um, and I think Ali would say they would have sold. And so, like, they're worth, um, you know-

   26. JAJack Altman30:39

       Hundred billion

   27. BHBen Horowitz30:39

       ... they're raising now over a hundred billion dollars. Um, so that's, like, a real value. And so to say that, like-... Oh, all right, we're gonna do you a favor and not be on your board?

   28. JAJack Altman30:49

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BHBen Horowitz30:49

       Like, 'cause look, when you're in a company, all you think about all day is the company.

   30. JAJack Altman30:52

       Yeah.
10. 34:56 – 44:44

    The evolution of media

    1. JAJack Altman34:56

       The last question on this, um, I just wanna sort of hear how your thinking has evolved. You guys came out early, like, I guess two thousand and nine, with this idea that, like, media and brand are a big deal, and I think in many ways, I don't know exactly 'cause I didn't graduate till twenty eleven, but it seems to me like in those years, this was, like, not what was happening versus, like, now, obviously-

    2. BHBen Horowitz35:18

       Yeah

    3. JAJack Altman35:18

       ... everybody kind of knows it.

    4. BHBen Horowitz35:20

       Yeah.

    5. JAJack Altman35:20

       Have you evolved your thinking, like, from two thousand and nine to now? Like, are you... Do you b- think it basically played out just like you thought? Do you think it's even more important? Has it... Have you changed your idea of, like, what type of brand and media and so on matters?

    6. BHBen Horowitz35:36

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So look, I think, um, the original idea was very simple, which is VCs didn't market themselves. Um, it was some kind of, like, code in VC land, and we're like, "Well, since we're new and nobody knows who we are, like, and that's what we know how to do, we're people who build companies, we're gonna market it." And we did, and we did a good job of it, and that kind of got us ahead. The world has changed. The, the world of media is completely different than when we started. When we started, everything... Uh, I mean, there were blogs and stuff, and we had blogs and that kind of thing, but the primary way people got information was through the press, um, for sure. And the rules of the press [chuckles] are, and the laws of physics of the, of the indirect channel going through the press, are completely different than the laws of physics of going direct. The very fixed number of channels that matter-

    7. JAJack Altman36:32

       Yeah

    8. BHBen Horowitz36:32

       ... um, very fixed format that you, you know, you can have a quote or a short five-minute interview-

    9. JAJack Altman36:37

       Yeah

    10. BHBen Horowitz36:37

        ... segment where they're, like, hitting you with questions that you don't want to answer and all that kind of thing. And then the brands were all-... companies, you know, Ford, GM, this, that. The indirect world is completely upside down from that. There's unlimited channels. [chuckles] Um, there's unlimited formats.

    11. JAJack Altman36:54

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BHBen Horowitz36:54

        You can tell the longest or the shortest story you want to, it's no problem. Uh, and then the brands are mostly people, right? Like, is it Palantir? Is it Alex Karp? Is it Elon, or is it X? Is it, you know, like these, you know... Is it Jensen, or is it NVIDIA?

    13. JAJack Altman37:09

        Yeah.

    14. BHBen Horowitz37:10

        So you can't really have a brand that's completely independent of the people behind the brand. And so I think the way that we're approaching the market now is com- this is why we brought on, uh, Eric Torenburg, and what he's building is a completely new marketing model for us, um, we're not- everything is different because the laws of physics are different, so you have to build a whole new system. And look, I, I think that what's happened [chuckles] with the other VCs is, because they were late to copy us, they're still in the old world, by and large. Um, and they have some, like, you know, light shots at the new world-

    15. JAJack Altman37:50

        Mm-hmm

    16. BHBen Horowitz37:51

        ... but they're gonna have to do a lot of changing to, to kind of catch up.

    17. JAJack Altman37:52

        It's also the kind of thing, I think, where if you don't internally get what it's all about, you can't just replicate people's activities. I feel like this is one of those things where you have to understand, like, the underlying physics of how it's working.

    18. BHBen Horowitz38:03

        No, that, that's exactly right. You know, there, the, the ethos of it, it- it's, like, very culturally different.

    19. JAJack Altman38:08

        Yeah.

    20. BHBen Horowitz38:09

        Like, y- you're no longer thinking about what you shouldn't say. Right, like, so much of the old world was, "What can I not say?"

    21. JAJack Altman38:15

        Yeah.

    22. BHBen Horowitz38:15

        "How do I avoid answering that question? How do I give the talking point?"

    23. JAJack Altman38:19

        Totally.

    24. BHBen Horowitz38:19

        Like, there are no talking points in this world.

    25. JAJack Altman38:21

        Totally.

    26. BHBen Horowitz38:22

        You know, like, I'm just talking shit-

    27. JAJack Altman38:23

        Yeah

    28. BHBen Horowitz38:23

        ... and that's better.

    29. JAJack Altman38:24

        And if you, like, offend somebody a little bit-

    30. BHBen Horowitz38:25

        Yeah
11. 44:44 – 48:28

    Laws of physics for fund sizes

    1. BHBen Horowitz44:44

       be-

    2. JAJack Altman44:44

       Thinking about your sort of firm's growth, um, I wanna ask you sort of a question both on, like, um, the strongest version of, let's call it big venture. I know that's not quite the right thing 'cause I think it's a very negative-sounding word, but whatever. Um-

    3. BHBen Horowitz44:57

       [chuckles] Good venture.

    4. JAJack Altman44:58

       Good-

    5. BHBen Horowitz44:59

       I call it good venture.

    6. JAJack Altman44:59

       Yeah, instead of big, good venture.

    7. BHBen Horowitz45:01

       Yeah.

    8. JAJack Altman45:01

       So actually, let's start there. Obviously, you're, you've raised, like, you know, a big new fund. Um, I think, you know, I'm guessing your view is, over time, this could grow much more. What are the laws of physics on the size of how big venture firms can get and still be productive?

    9. BHBen Horowitz45:14

       The biggest limit is the market. So how many great new technology entrepreneurs are there, um, to fund? Look, there, there's already more money in the venture capital market than there are kind of great entrepreneurs with great ideas. But if you're number one, then that's fine, like, 'cause, like, we'll just get the deals anyway, and it's no problem. If you ask me, "Well, why don't we raise a hundred billion dollars?" Like, that's the main limit, um, because it would be hard to generate a return on a hundred billion in venture capital, probably, uh, given the size of the market, like, in twenty twenty-

    10. JAJack Altman45:48

        Basically, you're saying the companies won't be big enough.

    11. BHBen Horowitz45:50

        Well, I, I think there just won't be enough of them. I think that's the most likely, it would be the most likely scale challenge for us.

    12. JAJack Altman45:58

        Yeah.

    13. BHBen Horowitz45:58

        That, like, you know, at least with the team that we've built, when we look at the markets that we're in, it's hard to see our way to, like, an order of magnitude more money. But, you know, that could change, but that's the current-- I'd say that's the current kind of number one limiter.

    14. JAJack Altman46:13

        Mm-hmm.

    15. BHBen Horowitz46:13

        I think the limiter on most funds or most firms is not the limiter that we have. Uh, so for most firms, the limiter is they can't kind of have that many effective partners.

    16. JAJack Altman46:28

        Cooperating.

    17. BHBen Horowitz46:28

        Yeah, cooperating. There's two fundamental reasons for that. One is structure. So most venture capital firms are, uh, shared economics, shared control structures.

    18. JAJack Altman46:40

        Mm.

    19. BHBen Horowitz46:40

        And if you have shared control, you very likely can't reorganize effectively. So, uh, in order to scale, you have to be able to change the org structure. Like, it's just kind of fundamental to scale.

    20. JAJack Altman46:52

        You're saying you need to periodically update. Like, every few years, you might need to do a reorg.

    21. BHBen Horowitz46:57

        Yeah, yeah. Um, just, you know, like, if you double in size, anybody who runs a company, you double in size, like, you have to look at the org structure and see if it still works, if the communication paths are still right, if there's too much conflict, all that kind of thing. The side effect of reorganizing is you redistribute power, and so people who had power lose power, and people who didn't have power get power. Like, it's just that, that's what it is. And if you're voting on that, the chance of you getting that right is zero because having done many reorgs in my career, when a reorganization happens, people always do-- everybody does a local optimization other than the CEO.

    22. JAJack Altman47:33

        Mm.

    23. BHBen Horowitz47:33

        And so if the CEO gives in to the needs of the people [chuckles] um, and makes it democratic, uh, then you're done. Like, that's never gonna work. So I think it's very hard. I don't know how I'd-- you could ever get to, like, our size with, you know, shared control. It'd be very tough. The other thing you need, uh, is you do need a leader who's, can deal with that kind of scale-

    24. JAJack Altman47:58

        Mm-hmm

    25. BHBen Horowitz47:59

        ... um, in terms of making those decisions and, and running the firm. And most VCs don't have people of that kind of operational caliber, like some do, but, like, it's pretty rare, and if they do, they're often not in charge.

    26. JAJack Altman48:12

        Yeah.

    27. BHBen Horowitz48:13

        Um, so, so we have, like, those are the two advantages that have led us... I mean, we're only now sixteen years old. Like, most of the firms we compete with are much older than that. But that, those, those issues have enabled us to get bigger-

    28. JAJack Altman48:26

        Yeah

    29. BHBen Horowitz48:26

        ... is basically the, the

12. 48:28 – 52:15

    Winning is more impactful than picking

    1. BHBen Horowitz48:28

       situation.

    2. JAJack Altman48:28

       And basically, your view is being big in venture makes everything better because you can scale people like Martine and Chris, you can have more access to more power, you have a bigger brand, you can lend to founders, and basically, your view, I am assuming from everything you've shared and just how you're running the firm, is the bigger you get, actually, it's possible the better per dollar that you might be able to do.

    3. BHBen Horowitz48:49

       I think so. I mean, I think that it's kind of-- I mean, like, you know, we've got a sixteen-year track record. We just raised fifteen billion dollars. Like, I, I think the product to investors is, kind of speaks for itself. But look, I think in venture capital, just generally, the way you... There's kind of two-... parts to getting good returns, like picking the right deal and winning it.

    4. JAJack Altman49:08

       Mm-hmm.

    5. BHBen Horowitz49:09

       I think it turns out that winning it, [chuckles] uh, is a much bigger percentage of that equation than people, like in VC world, like to give credit for, 'cause they like to think of themselves as such super genius. "Oh, I saw F- I saw Facebook early," da, da, da.

    6. JAJack Altman49:24

       Mm-hmm.

    7. BHBen Horowitz49:24

       That, that's a real thing. Um, but, you know, if you can't win it-

    8. JAJack Altman49:30

       Yeah

    9. BHBen Horowitz49:30

       ... then you're still never gonna have good returns. And so being able to win kind of automatically, I would say, gets you to the top tier of returns, and then, you know, picking kind of moves you up that list.

    10. JAJack Altman49:42

        You're saying you could be-

    11. BHBen Horowitz49:43

        Yeah

    12. JAJack Altman49:43

        ... a roughly random picker or an average picker, let's say, and a great winner, and that's gonna get better returns than the inverse?

    13. BHBen Horowitz49:51

        Yes. For sure.

    14. JAJack Altman49:53

        At all stages?

    15. BHBen Horowitz49:54

        Yeah, I, I, I think at all stages. And, and it also kind of- th- they kind of- it's a little self-fulfilling in that, um, if you can win-

    16. JAJack Altman50:02

        Mm-hmm

    17. BHBen Horowitz50:02

        ... then the best pickers wanna join you.

    18. JAJack Altman50:05

        Mm-hmm.

    19. BHBen Horowitz50:05

        It's like, as an investor, like, why does Martine work here? You know, why does Chris Dixon work here?

    20. JAJack Altman50:10

        'Cause it makes it easier to win.

    21. BHBen Horowitz50:11

        Yeah, 'cause, like, they want their best ideas. They wanna actually be in the deals they wanna be in.

    22. JAJack Altman50:17

        Yeah.

    23. BHBen Horowitz50:17

        [chuckles] Right? Like, if you're an investor, and you go, "Hey, I think that's the future. I think that's the greatest entrepreneur I've met," and you can't invest in it, like, that's very frustrating.

    24. JAJack Altman50:27

        Yeah.

    25. BHBen Horowitz50:27

        Uh, so then you end up... the, the be- the winners get the best investors over time, I think.

    26. JAJack Altman50:33

        It's an interesting thing because, um, I was talking to somebody recently that it's actually really rare for a venture firm to have two, what you would consider, like, generationally good investors. Like, almost never happens.

    27. BHBen Horowitz50:45

        Yeah.

    28. JAJack Altman50:45

        And then it's, like, ridiculously rare to have three. And, like, if you have three, then you're like, you know, Sequoia Andreessen, basically.

    29. BHBen Horowitz50:51

        Yeah.

    30. JAJack Altman50:51

        Why is it so hard to get many at one place? Like, it just seems so uncommon, and it seems like... I don't know, is that a function of winning ability, or is that a function of picking ability? Like, what is it that makes it so hard? Like, why don't-
13. 52:15 – 55:00

    Defending why venture doesn’t scale

    1. BHBen Horowitz52:15

       yeah.

    2. JAJack Altman52:15

       Could you give your best articulation or best steel man of, like, the counter to this idea of venture scaling? Like, if you had to defend the view of, like, a, you know, I've had, um, Peter at Benchmark or Josh at First Round, to some extent, you know, um, Sequoia, you know, have said there's limitations. What is sort of, in your mind, if you had to give the best version of the argument for, like, why a venture doesn't scale or why small is better in any way? Like, could you give that narration?

    3. BHBen Horowitz52:42

       Yeah, I, I mean, I think that there, there are kind of configurations where that is true, right? Like, so, you know, as I said, look, if you have shared control, you, you just can't get past a certain size before it becomes some chaotic, crazy democracy, which, like, democracies are great for, like, if you've got three hundred and fifty million people, but, like, they- they're not good if you're a [chuckles] venture capital firm. It's, it's just not good. Uh, at least in terms of scale, it's, it's not gonna work. It's, it's fine if you don't scale. The second thing is, if you have, like, twenty people on an investing team, I, I, I don't think that works, 'cause I, I don't think that's a conversation anymore.

    4. JAJack Altman53:18

       Mm-hmm.

    5. BHBen Horowitz53:18

       And so, so much of investing is about, like, you're trying to find the truth, right? Like, you're, you're working every day, you have these conversations, and you're talking to entrepreneurs, and you're talking to all the references, and you're talking to customers, and you're understanding the technology, and this and that, and you're having this long, long running conversation about like, okay, what is true? Like, is there gonna be a God model, or does like... Can I, like, take a little model and post-train it with my own data and beat the piss out of OpenAI? Like, I- w- what's the answer to that question long term?

    6. JAJack Altman53:48

       Mm.

    7. BHBen Horowitz53:48

       What's the answer to that question today? Like, we've got to get it to that. How do you have that conversation with twenty people? Like, it's, it's very hard. So I think that if you're configured, um, in that kind of way-

    8. JAJack Altman53:58

       Yeah

    9. BHBen Horowitz53:59

       ... then, then being large is dangerous, I think, very dangerous. So, you, you know, there are reasons [chuckles] um-

    10. JAJack Altman54:08

        Yeah

    11. BHBen Horowitz54:08

        ... if you don't, if you don't have the ability to scale in a way that makes you... L- like, our investing teams all look like small VCs. I mean, like, so Martine's team or Chris's team-

    12. JAJack Altman54:20

        Yeah

    13. BHBen Horowitz54:20

        ... or Alex's team, they, they, they all look like a little VC.

    14. JAJack Altman54:23

        Right.

    15. BHBen Horowitz54:23

        So, so in some ways, I'm all for that model. Um, I'm just doing it in a context-

    16. JAJack Altman54:28

        Yeah

    17. BHBen Horowitz54:29

        ... where you have a platform and a brand that can be helpful to entrepreneurs-

    18. JAJack Altman54:32

        Yes

    19. BHBen Horowitz54:32

        ... more so than, you know, just, you know, having a person.

    20. JAJack Altman54:36

        Yeah, makes sense. I guess maybe to wrap, I think one of the other tenants, at least when you got started, which I think is still roughly a tenant today, that I think is, like, core, was you really believed in hiring ex-founders, CEOs. I'm sure you've hired some people who are not, but for the most part-

    21. BHBen Horowitz54:52

        [chuckles]

    22. JAJack Altman54:52

        ... it seems like you're very-

    23. BHBen Horowitz54:52

        In the beginning, yeah.

    24. JAJack Altman54:53

        Yeah, very concentrated. At least, you know, it seems like a lot of the DNA is rooted in that, at least.

    25. BHBen Horowitz54:58

        Yeah.

    26. JAJack Altman54:58

        Why has that been, like, important

14. 55:00 – 57:32

    Hiring ex founders and CEOs

    1. JAJack Altman55:00

       to you?

    2. BHBen Horowitz55:00

       Yeah, so, you know, when we started the firm, like, a big idea that we had, um, and, and I, I'd say this idea mostly came from me, was that venture capital was disappointing.... as a product for an entrepreneur. The reason, like, I know we had a very hard time building, like, Loudcloud Opsware, um, although it ended reasonably well. It's just, like, a very, very difficult to build a company, like, excruciatingly difficult, and there's all these components to it, and all these things you have to learn, and then things go wrong that are completely out of your control, like the dot-com crash or, you know, that kind of thing. Venture capital firms kind of give you the money and then put a very smart person on your board, um, and give you some advice, and that was, like, it. And so we always thought, "Wow, a much better product would be, give me, like, the network to be confident and the advice I need to run this fucking thing." Really early on, the way we thought about that was, okay, some experience required to be on your board. You have to have, like, done this thing before to advise me. Don't just, like, send me, you know, somebody who doesn't know how to do that. So that was the original idea. That idea turned out to be somewhat right, but not entirely right. So the problem with the way we did it is some founder CEOs are good at being founder CEOs, but not good at explaining what the hell it was they did, and then they may also not be that interested in investing like they were at running something, right? Like, it's a little bit of... If you've, [chuckles] there's a feeling you have if you have a thousand people working for you or whatever, that you're never gonna achieve as an investor. Like, that's just, like, that, that's not that.

    3. JAJack Altman56:42

       Yeah.

    4. BHBen Horowitz56:43

       Um, it's a different thing. You know, we made kind of the adjustment, we're like, "Okay, like, yes, advice on how to run a company is important," but like, you know, and that's when I was like: Okay, so I'll write some books that explain it, and then you can talk to me, [chuckles] who knows how to explain that.

    5. JAJack Altman56:58

       Yeah.

    6. BHBen Horowitz56:59

       But we're not gonna... Everybody in the firm is not gonna have to be that. That was, I think, a very important adjustment for us.

    7. JAJack Altman57:05

       Would you write another book?

    8. BHBen Horowitz57:07

       Uh, well, if I have another thing that I think I understand that people don't understand, like, I won't do it, [chuckles] uh, to be, like-

    9. JAJack Altman57:14

       Yeah

    10. BHBen Horowitz57:14

        ... popular or make money.

    11. JAJack Altman57:15

        You don't want to write a book to make some more money?

    12. BHBen Horowitz57:16

        No. [chuckles]

    13. JAJack Altman57:17

        That wouldn't be the driver?

    14. BHBen Horowitz57:18

        No. Although that book does well, you know.

    15. JAJack Altman57:19

        I'm sure.

    16. BHBen Horowitz57:20

        The Hard Thing About Hard Things is a very, uh-

    17. JAJack Altman57:21

        Yeah

    18. BHBen Horowitz57:21

        ... good seller. I gave away all the money for it, but it's, um, it, it does well, yeah.

    19. JAJack Altman57:25

        Yeah. Cool. All right, Ben, I'm gonna let you go. Thanks a bunch for doing this. This was great.

    20. BHBen Horowitz57:28

        Yeah. All right.

    21. JAJack Altman57:29

        Thanks.

    22. BHBen Horowitz57:29

        Awesome. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 57:32