Building a Multi-Billion Dollar Hard Tech Company | Qasar Younis, CEO of Applied Intuition | Ep. 9

1. 0:00 – 0:31

   Intro

   1. QYQasar Younis0:00

      So number one, I lo- I love the car business in, in the, in a way that I've never loved, you know, any other [chuckles] like bus- beyond a business.

   2. JAJack Altman0:06

      Why do you love it so much?

   3. QYQasar Younis0:07

      I mean, I came to the US in GM money, um, so there's an emotional, you know, component there. Like, my uncle was a General Motors engineer. He bought us the tickets that we came to America on and then supported us.

   4. JAJack Altman0:16

      [music] All right. Thanks a bunch for doing this. You're, um, you're one of the CEOs that I look up to the most, but there's no content about you online.

   5. QYQasar Younis0:24

      Wow! I'm deeply flattered.

   6. JAJack Altman0:26

      When I started this, I was like-

   7. QYQasar Younis0:27

      And the same

   8. JAJack Altman0:27

      ... I've gotta get you.

   9. QYQasar Younis0:28

      [laughing]

   10. JAJack Altman0:28

       Oh, yeah, he'll... Every single one, right to him.

2. 0:31 – 17:04

   Psychology of starting a company

   1. QYQasar Younis0:31

      [laughing]

   2. JAJack Altman0:31

      Um, so I wanna start with when you began working on this company, you were at a place where you had already started a company-

   3. QYQasar Younis0:39

      Yeah

   4. JAJack Altman0:39

      ... that was, like, probably really hard. You know, you went to Google, and then you were, like, the COO at YC, and you had this comfortable, good job.

   5. QYQasar Younis0:47

      Yeah.

   6. JAJack Altman0:47

      You already knew that starting a company is pretty brutal, kind of sucks, and you started one anyway, which is very different than, like, a 22-year-old starting a company who's just, like, bright-eyed and doesn't know how hard it is. But you decided to. So can you talk about what was the psychology for you-

   7. QYQasar Younis1:00

      Yeah

   8. JAJack Altman1:00

      ... when you began working on the company, knowing that you could've, you could've gone and ran a VC firm?

   9. QYQasar Younis1:06

      Yeah.

   10. JAJack Altman1:06

       You could have gone and been a COO at a public company probably. Like, you had a bunch of options. Why'd you do it?

   11. QYQasar Younis1:10

       Yeah, yeah. I, uh, first thing is, I didn't quite know, because the first company I had was three years, but it was like this... I did it full-time for a while, then did it part-time, et cetera, and it was, like, and it failed. It was in Chicago. It kind of failed quietly, and literally didn't know anybody. I mean, my co-founders from that company know us, but, like, we didn't raise a dollar. It was just, you know, you're-

   12. JAJack Altman1:28

       Mm.

   13. QYQasar Younis1:28

       ... It's like a tree falls in the forest. [chuckles] If a company dies without raising money-

   14. JAJack Altman1:31

       Yeah

   15. QYQasar Younis1:32

       ... and no one even knew it existed-

   16. JAJack Altman1:33

       Yeah

   17. QYQasar Younis1:33

       ... was it really a company?

   18. JAJack Altman1:34

       Yeah. Okay.

   19. QYQasar Younis1:35

       Then the second one was 10 months when it was acquired by Google, and it was a good outcome for us financially. We were, like, three poor, you know, kids, uh, and so, um, it wasn't, we didn't have the grind. 10 months is nothing.

   20. JAJack Altman1:46

       It's nothing.

   21. QYQasar Younis1:46

       You blink, and your 10 months is done. So, uh, pa- partly, I didn't know, but I knew just from the YC experience that there were a lot of smart founders that went out and did all the right things-

   22. JAJack Altman1:57

       Mm-hmm

   23. QYQasar Younis1:57

       ... and still failed. And so, uh, I think for me, on, on YC, e- even with going to YC originally, the way that I got into YC was, as an employee, was my co-founder here, Peter Ludwig, and I, we were thinking of doing a robotaxi company, and, uh, I'd met some of these, uh, Sequoia partners, and they were like: "We don't think it's a good business." And so I was like, "Oh, shit." You know, you take that advice. Look, one of the, my superpowers is I take feedback. [chuckles] Like, that is, like, I listen, and I really re-evaluate my preconceived notion, and all the way to when I started my career in automotive, you know, I was knee-deep in automotive, and I moved over to Silicon Valley software extremely pragmatically. And, uh, you know, we say often all of our values can be reduced to radical pragmatism. The way you're radically pragmatic in any of these, let's say, inflection-point decisions, is having a clear-eyed understanding of what is... what you're good at, what the market is saying to you about the thing you're gonna do, and then, um, where they could be wrong, possibly. So when the Sequoia guy says, specifically one person said, "We'll give you the money to you and Peter to do a robotaxi company, but I don't think it's a good business," to me, it was like, "Okay, I gotta really listen to that feedback." And I went to PG, Paul Graham's house, and said, "Oh, what do you think?" And he said, "Well, you should consider joining YC." And my wife at the time was pregnant with our son, and he's like, "Don't start a family and this startup at the same time," and I also listened to that advice. And then, in terms of the, the, the true inflection point of leaving YC, which is, leaving Google was a tough decision because I was, it was a great job. Uh, it was the first time to be in... Also, people forget what Google... Like, today, people at Google, like, what, 14, 15 years later, is very different than Google at that time. At that time, you know, uh, NVIDIA was near bankruptcy. Apple had come out with this MacBook Air. Wasn't Apple today, and Steve Jobs was still alive.

   24. JAJack Altman3:44

       Yeah, Google felt really strong then.

   25. QYQasar Younis3:46

       It was the apex predator. Uh, who else was there? Facebook was under 1,000 people. 2010, Facebook was a tiny company, relatively speaking. It was a small company. And so it's like Google was the, the company, um, to work at, and there was really no number two. Everyone was trying to work at Google, and everything... So, but it wasn't that hard to leave because I think I've never emotionally felt that I wanted to be an employee forever.

   26. JAJack Altman4:07

       Mm.

   27. QYQasar Younis4:07

       Like, that, that, that was a part of it. Also, working with Paul and working with Sam, these are like, you know... I'm not that smart, but I'm smart enough to know that these people are exceptional. And, uh, so, like, getting the exposure to those people, I think, was really important and, like, made, made the transition. Leaving YC, that was actually the more difficult, uh, decision because the reason that you said. Fundamentally, I think it came down to, I, I always felt... One, I already thought of leav- Like, you know, my view was, go in, learn a bench, and try to do the third company. And then, like, I enjoyed the work, and then that was actually what made it more difficult. But really, it was like, am I an investor or am I a founder?

   28. JAJack Altman4:43

       Yeah.

   29. QYQasar Younis4:44

       And that clear delineation is investors are lone wolf, you know, they're, they're great- Great investors are kind of like thoughtful, academic, uh, independent, contrarian to some, you know, to maybe even to a fault. Those are, like, what really great investors look like. And then, the, the best founders are actually super opinionated.

   30. JAJack Altman5:03

       Mm-hmm.
3. 17:04 – 22:54

   Love for the automotive industry

   1. JAJack Altman17:04

      Where are we right now in just, like, the landscape with auto in general and automotive, like-

   2. QYQasar Younis17:09

      Yeah, I mean, I don't know when this, uh, will come out, but it's tariff season right now. And, uh, you know, the car business-- So number one, I lo- I love the car business in, in the, in a way that I've never loved, you know, any other [chuckles] like, bus- beyond a business.

   3. JAJack Altman17:22

      Why do you love it so much?

   4. QYQasar Younis17:24

      I grew... I mean, I came to the US in GM money, um, so there's an emotional, you know, component there. Like, my uncle was a General Motors engineer. He bought us the tickets that we came to America on and then supported us, and then I went to the General Motors Institute, and it paid for my college, and I worked at General Motors, and I worked at Bosch, both in, in, in, uh, the US and in Japan, and then I spent some time in Germany as a student, and so I just know the industry. I know-

   5. JAJack Altman17:45

      Do you love, like, the cars or the people-

   6. QYQasar Younis17:47

      Yeah!

   7. JAJack Altman17:47

      -or the engineering-

   8. QYQasar Younis17:48

      Love the cars

   9. JAJack Altman17:48

      ... or is it the whole thing?

   10. QYQasar Younis17:49

       The whole thing.

   11. JAJack Altman17:49

       The cars.

   12. QYQasar Younis17:49

       I like the cars and the engineering that goes into the cars. So, you know, like, there are not a thousand YouTube channels on, you know, databases. There are a thousand YouTube channels on cars, and every sub-brand of car has their car cl- There are Subaru car clubs, and there's, you know, Civic, like, everything that you can think of. There's J- you know, Jeeps, people who go out and out, you know, uh, off-roading. So it's just a h- it's a giant community.

   13. JAJack Altman18:09

       Are you more likely to go deep on, like, a really cool engine or, like, a supercar?

   14. QYQasar Younis18:14

       ... both, I mean, great engines are in super cars. [laughs]

   15. JAJack Altman18:17

       Yeah. Okay.

   16. QYQasar Younis18:18

       So I mean, I, I absolutely like-

   17. JAJack Altman18:19

       But you like the whole thing?

   18. QYQasar Younis18:20

       Yeah, I like the whole thing.

   19. JAJack Altman18:21

       Yeah.

   20. QYQasar Younis18:21

       I mean, I can tell you the history of the Ford Mustang or the Porsche 911. I can tell you the difference between a GT2-3 RS versus a GT2 RS, and you know-

   21. JAJack Altman18:30

       You know all the players in the ecosystem.

   22. QYQasar Younis18:31

       Yeah, I just love it.

   23. JAJack Altman18:32

       Yeah.

   24. QYQasar Younis18:32

       I mean, th- that's why you go to GMI as a 16-year-old. You're like, "I love cars, and where am I gonna go to work on cars? I go to the General Motors Institute in Flint, Michigan."

   25. JAJack Altman18:40

       What was that like? What was the GMI like?

   26. QYQasar Younis18:42

       So different-

   27. JAJack Altman18:43

       I know nothing about it

   28. QYQasar Younis18:43

       ... than any-

   29. JAJack Altman18:44

       Yeah

   30. QYQasar Younis18:44

       ... school-
4. 22:54 – 25:45

   Autonomous vehicle landscape

   1. JAJack Altman22:54

      Totally.

   2. QYQasar Younis22:54

      Yeah.

   3. JAJack Altman22:54

      So, um, like, where are we in... Like, with cars today, obviously, like, there's a ton of intelligence that's being added. Obviously, in San Francisco, you can feel it. You can also just see it. You know, if you buy a new car-

   4. QYQasar Younis23:05

      Yeah

   5. JAJack Altman23:05

      ... you can feel that they are updating quickly. What's, like, the la- the landscape in the latest right now?

   6. QYQasar Younis23:09

      I think generally cars are still pretty dumb. Um, I mean, if you look at a parking lot, there's just not a lot of intelligence. Most cars are still a mechanical, electrical system. They'll have some connection to your phone. They're, they're, they're mostly dumb. And our, our vision of the future is every moving machine will be intelligent. That is the, the world that we see. And-

   7. JAJack Altman23:28

      Self-driving is, like, just one small part of that whole thing.

   8. QYQasar Younis23:30

      One part of the intelligence.

   9. JAJack Altman23:31

      Yeah.

   10. QYQasar Younis23:31

       The, the, the, it's, it's a part of that intelligence, but it's not the whole thing.

   11. JAJack Altman23:34

       Yeah. What are the other big parts of the... I don't know if you think of it as like, you know, different pillars of it, but like-

   12. QYQasar Younis23:40

       Yeah

   13. JAJack Altman23:40

       ... obviously, mobility is a big part of it.

   14. QYQasar Younis23:42

       The in-cabin experience.

   15. JAJack Altman23:43

       Yeah.

   16. QYQasar Younis23:43

       The, so if you're in a tank-... if you're in a fighter jet, there's already a lot of work in order to make the war fighter more efficient in their executing tasks, but that integration can be way tighter.

   17. JAJack Altman23:54

       Mm-hmm.

   18. QYQasar Younis23:54

       And I think defense in the future- right now, defense is still typically one person with one machine or a small group of people with one machine, and I think in the future it's the opposite, where it's one person with lots of machines.

   19. JAJack Altman24:06

       Mm-hmm.

   20. QYQasar Younis24:06

       And that's like you see the early versions of that through swarms of drones, but I think that is gonna be prevalent in, in kind of the future. And so the machines are the ones that can be at risk, rather than the human operator.

   21. JAJack Altman24:16

       Is that like you're prompting a swarm that can now do swarm-level things? Is that kinda what you mean?

   22. QYQasar Younis24:21

       Yeah, absolutely.

   23. JAJack Altman24:21

       Got it.

   24. QYQasar Younis24:22

       And, and but the human is still relevant and making ultimately a lot of those decisions, especially when you're talking about taking lives.

   25. JAJack Altman24:28

       Would that happen on a construction site, that, like, one person is coordinating between, you know-

   26. QYQasar Younis24:32

       I think so

   27. JAJack Altman24:32

       ... a digger and an excavator and a-

   28. QYQasar Younis24:33

       I think it'll happen.

   29. JAJack Altman24:34

       Like a dump truck

   30. QYQasar Younis24:34

       It's still far from that.
5. 25:45 – 28:49

   Deep partnership with customers

   1. JAJack Altman25:45

      I remember when I was, you know, in the surprisingly early days of Lattice, but definitely as things, you know, progressed, our customers weren't just like, "We just want some software. We have the whole plan." They were like, "We also want help making the plan for how we're gonna do performance management or whatever." And as I'm listening to you talk, I'm imagining that when you're talking to one of your customers, they're not just like, "We know the spec. You give me the parts. I'm good to go"-

   2. QYQasar Younis26:09

      Yeah

   3. JAJack Altman26:09

      ... but are rather like, "Can you help me get into the future?"

   4. QYQasar Younis26:11

      Yeah.

   5. JAJack Altman26:11

      And so I'm wondering out loud about, like, what is your relationship like with these customers you work with? Because I'm guessing that-

   6. QYQasar Younis26:19

      Extremely deep

   7. JAJack Altman26:20

      ... you're thinking all day about what they could be doing that they might not have even-

   8. QYQasar Younis26:23

      Yeah

   9. JAJack Altman26:23

      ... thought about yet.

   10. QYQasar Younis26:24

       Yeah.

   11. JAJack Altman26:24

       And then you're, like, partnering with them-

   12. QYQasar Younis26:25

       Yeah

   13. JAJack Altman26:25

       ... in a different way.

   14. QYQasar Younis26:26

       I mean, like in the- a lot of the word partner gets thrown around, like, basically in every company-

   15. JAJack Altman26:30

       But I can see it for this company in particular.

   16. QYQasar Younis26:31

       Yeah, yeah. It's like we- 'cause we do the software side, they do the hardware side, and so they're bringing a set of expertise that we don't have. It's not in our, in, uh, in our company, and so it is very much like, "Let's do product planning." Sometimes people ask us, like late-stage investors ask us, uh, you know, "Well, how... You know, is it easy to replace you guys, or what is the..." It's like, no, we are as deep in these companies as you possibly can.

   17. JAJack Altman26:53

       You're like... I'm- I would guess some people on your team and some people on your customer's team feel like actual teammates.

   18. QYQasar Younis26:59

       Yeah, I mean, it's extremely intimate. You're working on just giant projects.

   19. JAJack Altman27:03

       Yeah.

   20. QYQasar Younis27:04

       You know, when you're making a new truck, that is thousands of engineers that work together. Those are-- Like, if you ever think how complex it is, just open the hood of your car.

   21. JAJack Altman27:14

       Yeah.

   22. QYQasar Younis27:14

       Every little screw has a team behind it-

   23. JAJack Altman27:16

       Crazy

   24. QYQasar Younis27:16

       ... that has to make sure that that whole thing and that screw with that weight is- can handle-

   25. JAJack Altman27:20

       It's crazy that we can make a car, honestly.

   26. QYQasar Younis27:22

       It's unbelievable.

   27. JAJack Altman27:23

       Yeah.

   28. QYQasar Younis27:24

       It's unbeli- it's the most complex thing that humans make at scale.

   29. JAJack Altman27:27

       Yeah.

   30. QYQasar Younis27:28

       We make rockets. We make-
6. 28:49 – 34:44

   Complexities of being dual use

   1. QYQasar Younis28:49

      of errors that can-

   2. JAJack Altman28:49

      Aside from cars, you also mentioned tanks, you mentioned the military. Um, and so obviously, like, there's, like, a big dual use thing going on here, where-

   3. QYQasar Younis28:59

      Mm

   4. JAJack Altman28:59

      ... you're both in-

   5. QYQasar Younis29:00

      We're a true dual use company. Yeah

   6. JAJack Altman29:02

      ... the government and, you know, commercial.

   7. QYQasar Younis29:03

      Yeah.

   8. JAJack Altman29:03

      And so, like, what- is that, like... How different is that? What does, what does, what does it require from you to build a dual use company that's working with both arms?

   9. QYQasar Younis29:11

      Yeah.

   10. JAJack Altman29:11

       Like, the way you do business must be completely different, so...

   11. QYQasar Younis29:14

       So just for everybody who is not in the business, just a lit- little bit of education, you have companies like, um, an Anduril, who is really working primarily in defense, and they might work in multiple countries and things like this, in multiple, let's say, um, domains, uh, but they are working primarily for a very specific vertical, which is the, the, the defense market. Um, company like us, we are working across a bunch of verticals, and the defense vertical is- will use the same products, roughly, that we have for the other verticals. But it's not only made for the defense vertical. The pros of that is, you're essentially subsidizing these very expensive, uh, tech- technologies through non-defense uses, and then you augment them for the def- you know, there's, there are specific things that the defense ecosystem has. Um-... I think the future is more dual use companies, to be very honest. I think, uh, Palantir is a great example, started as more of a defense-oriented company, does m- a lot more commercial work now. Um, so I think that's just g- I think you're gonna see more and more of that. You see a big boom in defense tech investing. I think the thing that a lot of people will recognize once you get into the defense ecosystem is there's limitations there, too. It's not like this endless market with no competitors. I mean, there have- there's really mature competitors there, there's emergent competitors there, and then it's, the pot of money isn't as big as people think. They hear these big numbers, like a trillion dollars, but that money is used for labor, literally soldiers, that's used, and, and supply chains and logistics, and then some is used for technology.

   12. JAJack Altman30:42

       Right. But there's, like, a lot more cars than tanks. You know, and there's some, like-

   13. QYQasar Younis30:45

       Yeah

   14. JAJack Altman30:45

       ... high-level numbers you could just look at and say, like, "Okay, like, it's not..."

   15. QYQasar Younis30:48

       Yeah.

   16. JAJack Altman30:48

       The spending is humongous, obviously-

   17. QYQasar Younis30:50

       Yeah

   18. JAJack Altman30:50

       ... but you're probably tapping into the specific budgets.

   19. QYQasar Younis30:52

       I mean, the, the, the automotive industry, global automotive industry is 3% of the world's GDPs.

   20. JAJack Altman30:57

       Wow!

   21. QYQasar Younis30:58

       It is the biggest of the industrials, and the industrials is one of the biggest markets, period. And so when you add defense and construction, mining, all these other things, that's like five-ish some percent of the GDP. So for our- I think the magic trick that we're playing as a dual use company is, how do you build things that can work across these different verticals, you know, without a lot of augmentation? And then that makes everything cheaper.

   22. JAJack Altman31:19

       Mm-hmm.

   23. QYQasar Younis31:19

       And that's a, you know... And that's kind of- and but the, the companies have done this before, but our automotive suppliers before, our defense suppliers before, they'll overlap each. They'll make something for, you know, one type of vehicle, and then they'll actually resell it for another type of vehicle.

   24. JAJack Altman31:32

       Does your own work change as you now, you know, as you work with the military or whatever? D- 'cause, you know, obviously, I know you gotta know more about the government, you gotta know more people at the government.

   25. QYQasar Younis31:40

       Yeah.

   26. JAJack Altman31:40

       Like, what does that change for you? I'm also now curious after that to ask about, like, what have you learned? What do you think about, you know, the tariff situation?

   27. QYQasar Younis31:48

       Yeah.

   28. JAJack Altman31:48

       What do you think about just, like, the overall, like, climate at the moment?

   29. QYQasar Younis31:51

       Yeah, so I mean, I've said this, uh, many times, but I'll repeat it, which is, you know, I think American tech companies, small and large, are for... Maybe obligated is too strong of a word, but, um, I, uh, nothing comes out of an obligated- like, you're almost obligated to help the US government. If you're a citizen of this country, you get the benefits of being a citizen of this country, and you- it is such a privilege to say, "Well, I don't wanna work with defense or the government." It's like, well, you are getting a lot of the upsides [chuckles] of being an American, right? So at some moral or ethical or mission foundation, we believe it's important for the company. And, and this is... You know, we started our defense work a year after we started the company, so it's not a recent proclamation. Um, and it was less in vogue then. I think now it's no longer controversial-

   30. JAJack Altman32:36

       Mm-hmm
7. 34:44 – 40:01

   Culture being intrinsically contrarian

   1. QYQasar Younis34:44

      very different.

   2. JAJack Altman34:45

      Yeah. Actually, I wanna talk now about, like, the company and culture and management as a company that is simultaneously deeply Silicon Valley and also deeply, you know, other parts of America. [sniffs] Um, I remember during COVID that you stayed, I think, pretty much in person-

   3. QYQasar Younis35:03

      [laughing]

   4. JAJack Altman35:03

      ... five days a week. Yeah.

   5. QYQasar Younis35:05

      We've been in person, in person, as long as the government has allowed us, we have been-

   6. JAJack Altman35:08

      Yeah, but-

   7. QYQasar Younis35:08

      ... in person five days a week.

   8. JAJack Altman35:09

      I feel like the-- I think I remember you telling me once that, like, the day you were allowed to get people-

   9. QYQasar Younis35:13

      Yeah, we're back

   10. JAJack Altman35:14

       ... back in with masks, you're back.

   11. QYQasar Younis35:15

       We're back.

   12. JAJack Altman35:15

       And, like, everybody else was, like-

   13. QYQasar Younis35:17

       Yeah

   14. JAJack Altman35:17

       ... freaking out, uh-

   15. QYQasar Younis35:18

       Yeah

   16. JAJack Altman35:18

       ... you know, and, you know, going remote.

   17. QYQasar Younis35:20

       Because COVID is a conspir-- No, kidding. [laughing]

   18. JAJack Altman35:22

       Should we go to the-

   19. QYQasar Younis35:23

       No. [laughing]

   20. JAJack Altman35:23

       Let's do conspiracy theories next.

   21. QYQasar Younis35:24

       [laughing]

   22. JAJack Altman35:25

       Um, I would like to do that.

   23. QYQasar Younis35:26

       Yeah, I mean, I think w-

   24. JAJack Altman35:27

       But there was that. You know-

   25. QYQasar Younis35:28

       Yeah

   26. JAJack Altman35:28

       ... you're down in Sunnyvale. It took me, like, five hours to get down here.

   27. QYQasar Younis35:30

       Oh, you're saying this, this look like a Sunnyvale?

   28. JAJack Altman35:31

       I mean, look where we are.

   29. QYQasar Younis35:32

       Look how much square footage you have. [chuckles]

   30. JAJack Altman35:34

       I don't know where... Yeah. [chuckles]
8. 40:01 – 42:28

   Gen AI and humanoid robotics

   1. QYQasar Younis40:01

      category.

   2. JAJack Altman40:01

      Do you have any, um, like, contrarian beats you're on right now? Like...

   3. QYQasar Younis40:05

      I mean, what's the mo- most contra-- I mean, yeah, I do. I mean, uh, this is the macro stuff. I mean, because you, macro being this month-

   4. JAJack Altman40:11

      Mm-hmm

   5. QYQasar Younis40:11

      ... this year, this time, you have the big, you know, uh, uh, um, amount of investments going into broadly gen AI, specifically in humanoid robotics-

   6. JAJack Altman40:19

      Yep

   7. QYQasar Younis40:19

      ... like, right now in this, in this universe. You know, I mean-

   8. JAJack Altman40:23

      Like a-

   9. QYQasar Younis40:23

      I, I mean, I just think, where's the business models? 'Cause when you take Applied Intuition as an example, in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, lots of companies getting funded in autonomy. Billion-dollar raises were the, were the, were the craze. Autonomy was the hot, hot thing.

   10. JAJack Altman40:35

       Yeah.

   11. QYQasar Younis40:36

       All the tech currents lists, everything, it was all autonomy, autonomy, autonomy. And now it's like, you know, self-driving is some how, like, almost out of vogue. It's coming back because the Waymos are starting to flood San Francisco. But I think, like, the point about saying humanoid robots or gen AI companies, I think maybe the real... I don't know if this is true.

   12. JAJack Altman40:50

       Mm-hmm.

   13. QYQasar Younis40:51

       I truly say I don't know if this is true. I could be completely wrong. Probably the really good ones are gonna emerge in four or five years from now.

   14. JAJack Altman40:57

       Mm.

   15. QYQasar Younis40:58

       'Cause you're just gonna, uh, the ecosystem's gonna learn a lot about the space, and then the most important thing they're gonna learn is what the business model is.

   16. JAJack Altman41:04

       Right. I would think based on how you spend your time, you would think that we will end up with very smart humanoid robots, though.

   17. QYQasar Younis41:10

       Yeah, absolutely.

   18. JAJack Altman41:11

       So you believe in the product happening-

   19. QYQasar Younis41:12

       Absolutely

   20. JAJack Altman41:12

       ... you just don't believe there's a good business there yet.

   21. QYQasar Younis41:14

       Yeah, it just has to be found.

   22. JAJack Altman41:16

       Yeah.

   23. QYQasar Younis41:16

       What, it, there, it might even exist. It might even exist in a company that's well-funded right now. It just has to be discovered.

   24. JAJack Altman41:22

       And is the reason you think that is 'cause you're like: Why should I build a humanoid when I could have a Caterpillar, or I could have, like, a machine in a factory doing a purpose-built thing?

   25. QYQasar Younis41:30

       Yeah, exactly. The, the, the, like, it's just first principles.

   26. JAJack Altman41:33

       Uh-huh.

   27. QYQasar Younis41:33

       Even though, like, it's... We had a, one of those Chinese Unitree, uh-

   28. JAJack Altman41:36

       Like, why do I need a human-shaped robot?

   29. QYQasar Younis41:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JAJack Altman41:38

       Yeah.
9. 42:28 – 44:14

   More noise than signal in investing

   1. JAJack Altman42:28

      I feel like when I talk to people on, like, Wall Street, whether it's, like, at a hedge fund or-

   2. QYQasar Younis42:33

      Yeah

   3. JAJack Altman42:33

      ... like, a Goldman or something, I feel sometimes surprised that actually public investors are- you'd think that they are short-term minded, and they're not, is my experience. And I think actually in some ways I, I think there might be, like, a U-shape, where it's like early-stage investors think very long term, real, like, public investors think very long term, and maybe it's, like, the growth investors that are, like-

   4. QYQasar Younis42:56

      Yeah

   5. JAJack Altman42:56

      ... the most short-term minded because they're just getting taught to think about, like, how long to liquidity and what's my mark gonna be there.

   6. QYQasar Younis43:03

      I think it's all over. I, I don't- I, I think the brain wants to find that pattern. I don't think there, there- think there's a lot more noise than signal in there. I think I've, you know, I've certainly met seed f- you know, folks who are, like, trying to flip their money by Series C and are just looking at the markup 'cause they wanna get the next fund raised. So they're, you know, optimizing to invest in what is gonna get marked up, which, by the way, is not a bad strategy. 'Cause I know a specific investor whose that's their strategy and done exceedingly well.

   7. JAJack Altman43:30

      Mm.

   8. QYQasar Younis43:30

      Their view is just, like, ride the hype.

   9. JAJack Altman43:32

      Interesting.

   10. QYQasar Younis43:33

       'Cause the hype is gonna get funded again.

   11. JAJack Altman43:35

       Yeah.

   12. QYQasar Younis43:35

       And then if you ha- it's a- the old classic question: What- does a company make money, or does money make a company?

   13. JAJack Altman43:41

       Yeah.

   14. QYQasar Younis43:41

       The reality is, if we're two-

   15. JAJack Altman43:43

       Starting a-

   16. QYQasar Younis43:43

       ... two humanoid robotics companies, and I raise three million, and you raise two hundred and fifty million-

   17. JAJack Altman43:47

       Yeah, that's a better odd of mine [chuckles]

   18. QYQasar Younis43:48

       [chuckles] You're better off, you're gonna win.

   19. JAJack Altman43:50

       For sure.

   20. QYQasar Younis43:50

       And everyone thinks you're gonna win.

   21. JAJack Altman43:51

       Yeah.

   22. QYQasar Younis43:51

       Employees think you're gonna win-

   23. JAJack Altman43:52

       Yes

   24. QYQasar Younis43:52

       ... your customers think you're gonna win-

   25. JAJack Altman43:53

       Yes

   26. QYQasar Younis43:53

       ... the target, who you-

   27. JAJack Altman43:54

       And then it's self-fulfilling. That's right.

   28. QYQasar Younis43:55

       Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

   29. JAJack Altman43:56

       Yeah.

   30. QYQasar Younis43:56

       And then so, like, uh, and then it's self-fulfilling. Yeah, absolutely. So I don't think there... I think I've met late-stage investors that are like, you know, I can see that they're gonna dump on when the public- the company goes public 'cause they're just looking for that-
10. 44:14 – 47:43

    Evolving with your work

    1. QYQasar Younis44:14

       in it, um.

    2. JAJack Altman44:14

       Do you feel like as the job's changing, it's making you change, too? Like, do you think that, um, doing this job changes who you are? And the reason I'm asking is because I felt like in a lot of ways, I mean, I think whatever work we do changes us in some ways, but I felt like there were so many things about, you know, Labs was not as big as Applied, but, you know, there's hundreds of people, and, you know-

    3. QYQasar Younis44:35

       Yeah

    4. JAJack Altman44:35

       ... you experience a lot of those things, and, um, it, I felt like it was very hard to not be... A- I think in mu- m- in many more good ways than bad ways, it changes your psychology, your behavior.

    5. QYQasar Younis44:46

       Yeah.

    6. JAJack Altman44:46

       Like, it does update your software a little bit.

    7. QYQasar Younis44:49

       Yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm not removed enough from myself to have that objective third-party view. I'm sure I've changed, w- without a doubt, and it's imp- impossible, um, not to, based on the, on the surroundings. But I can say, again, maybe it's like rationalization, you never know. I feel more myself today than I've ever felt.

    8. JAJack Altman45:07

       That's great.

    9. QYQasar Younis45:08

       Yeah, I mean, it's like I feel that's a huge privilege.

    10. JAJack Altman45:11

        That's amazing.

    11. QYQasar Younis45:12

        Yeah, and what-

    12. JAJack Altman45:12

        You can just, like, settle into yourself and-

    13. QYQasar Younis45:14

        Yeah, but that could be just getting old [laughs]

    14. JAJack Altman45:15

        ... still have a long way to go with the company. Yeah, maybe that's a good thing, though.

    15. QYQasar Younis45:17

        Maybe you're getting old.

    16. JAJack Altman45:18

        Yeah.

    17. QYQasar Younis45:18

        It's like you just come to peace with like, "These are things I'm good at. These are things I'm not good at."

    18. JAJack Altman45:22

        For me, I'm like, even just, like, having kids takes a little bit-

    19. QYQasar Younis45:25

        Yeah, absolutely

    20. JAJack Altman45:25

        ... of the edge off of just-

    21. QYQasar Younis45:26

        Yeah

    22. JAJack Altman45:26

        ... like, I don't really care about a list of th... There's a list of things that I used to care about that I don't care about anymore.

    23. QYQasar Younis45:30

        Yeah, absolutely.

    24. JAJack Altman45:30

        And I guess there's just a lot of things about getting older that update that.

    25. QYQasar Younis45:33

        Yeah, there's a, a one thing that reminded me, that is I, uh, l- uh, that, that I wanna repeat, which is my last co-founder had this line where he said, Michael Ma, and he said, um, um, "No matter how successful you become as a founder or, you know, venture investor, whatever, if your kids don't like you, you're a failure."

    26. JAJack Altman45:50

        Yep.

    27. QYQasar Younis45:51

        And that just, like, for me, I think ten years ago, that would've kind of made sense. It, to me, it's like-

    28. JAJack Altman45:57

        Now, you're like, "That is so true."

    29. QYQasar Younis45:58

        That's... There's nothing more true than that.

    30. JAJack Altman46:00

        Yeah.
11. 47:43 – 51:17

    Companies working is a state in time

    1. JAJack Altman47:43

       the la- uh, la- last note on that topic, for founders, because obviously, you know, you saw a bunch at YC.

    2. QYQasar Younis47:48

       Yeah.

    3. JAJack Altman47:48

       You've been doing your own very successful one now. You angel invest. What are the things that, you know, when you find yourself talking to a founder, what do you focus on most with helping people or advising right now?

    4. QYQasar Younis48:02

       ... there's this book, uh, called Into Thin Air-

    5. JAJack Altman48:04

       Mm-hmm.

    6. QYQasar Younis48:05

       -uh, which is about this, a fated Everest climb. And it was a journalist who wanted to just talk about Everest tourism, and he ends up being in this trip where 16 climbers ultimately die in a blizzard. It was the worst, uh, single camp incident. And in this blizzard, when he gets hit, he's coming down the mountain, and, um, there is a Japanese climber, and she's going up the mountain, and he sees base camp. He's like, "I'm 100 yards. I just gotta make it to the tents, and I'll, I'll live." And there's people who've fallen off, and because all this is because everyone's lacking oxygen. So everyone's kind of in this delirious state. So he's going down the mountain towards the camp, and this, this woman starts pulling on him and says, "No, no, the camp is that way." And he's like: No, the camp is right there. And he goes, "I looked in her eyes, and you could see that she was gone."

    7. JAJack Altman48:50

       Mm.

    8. QYQasar Younis48:50

       "And I had to make a decision. Am I gonna die, too, or am I gonna leave her?"

    9. JAJack Altman48:56

       Wow.

    10. QYQasar Younis48:56

        Obviously, left her. She dies. I meet founders all the time who are going up the wrong side of the mountain.

    11. JAJack Altman49:03

        Oh, wow.

    12. QYQasar Younis49:04

        And you're just like, "This company's not gonna work."

    13. JAJack Altman49:06

        So what do you do?

    14. QYQasar Younis49:07

        You tell them, but they can't because we're- we all have to believe-

    15. JAJack Altman49:11

        [exhales]

    16. QYQasar Younis49:11

        -that you're doing the right thing. [chuckles]

    17. JAJack Altman49:13

        You know what's so hard about that is, as a founder, so many people are telling you you're going up the wrong mountain.

    18. QYQasar Younis49:17

        Yes!

    19. JAJack Altman49:17

        And even when you're going up the right mountain, there's gonna be people telling you that you're wrong, that it's wrong.

    20. QYQasar Younis49:21

        There's people telling you you're going the wrong mountain. [laughing]

    21. JAJack Altman49:23

        Yeah.

    22. QYQasar Younis49:24

        [laughing] Yes.

    23. JAJack Altman49:24

        Still, I think you might be still. It doesn't seem like-

    24. QYQasar Younis49:26

        Yeah, exactly.

    25. JAJack Altman49:27

        I can't tell if this is working or not.

    26. QYQasar Younis49:28

        Who, who knows? Like, that's the thing. That, that's the thing is, like, it's working it- "it's working" is a state in time.

    27. JAJack Altman49:33

        Yeah.

    28. QYQasar Younis49:34

        It's not a permanent state.

    29. JAJack Altman49:35

        Yeah, and there's a lot of head fakes right now a- available with, like, a new paradigm and everything like that.

    30. QYQasar Younis49:40

        Yeah, and I think, I think, um... So I find myself often talking to founders and having that conversation. I think it's not easy to start a company: It's really, really hard to stop a company.

Episode duration: 51:17