Former CAA Talent Agent Turned Investor with $70B in AUM on AI and Venture Strategy | Ep. 29

1. 0:00 – 0:25

   Intro

   1. TLThomas Laffont0:00

      I looked at maybe the top ten to fifteen P&L winners that I've had over my career on the private side. Without exception, my first opportunity to invest was a no. It might have been a no from me to the company passing, or vice versa, the company passing on me. [upbeat music]

   2. JAJack Altman0:20

      I am really excited to be here with you today, Thomas. Thanks so much for taking the time for this.

   3. TLThomas Laffont0:24

      Very excited.

2. 0:25 – 5:31

   Making sense of the current cycle

   1. JAJack Altman0:25

      Um, so my note to myself on this first topic is, uh, this time it's different, and, um, a lot of people recently, in the, you know, last few weeks, have been saying things that are, you know, implying that a bubble might be going. And, you know, it's like, you know, there was a tweet from Brian at Sequoia that was like, "You know, this is a good time to sell your company." There have been a lot of blog posts written, you know, behind, you know, closed doors. It's a frequent topic of conversation, like valuations are expensive. We're back to twenty twenty-one multiples for a certain flavor of company. Obviously, you know, Coatue has gone through, over its last twenty-five years of existence, a bunch of cycles, so you've seen this happen many times. And so I'm curious, sort of your spot temp check, it's fall twenty twenty-five, how do you make sense of where we are in, in the cycle and sort of in capital deployment?

   2. TLThomas Laffont1:21

      Yeah, so I've been lucky to be doing this for a while, um, almost twenty-five years now, and there are a few seminal moments that I recall as a tech investor. Um, the first was the iPhone and Apple, and the quarterly earnings that would come out, and the absolute blowout. You know, if, if consensus was one, they would print three or five. You just didn't see those kinds of beats and the magnitude of [clears throat] the transformation that Apple was, uh, bringing into the market with the iPhone. So that was kind of one, right? Um, the second I remember, like it was yesterday, was NVIDIA, when it guided its data center business to be up one hundred percent year over year, and no one thought that that could be possible. So that was obviously, um, that and the, the ChatGPT moment kind of happening at the same time, right? I do think the Oracle announcement from two weeks ago was, um, [lips smack] really profound and important as well. Um, just a fascinating story of how long Oracle's been around and how it's been able to shed its skin and reinvent itself. Um, what was interesting about that, um, specific company is, if you look at the AI infrastructure build-out up to this point, had really been funded with, um, cash flows from big companies, right? So, um, Meta, Google, Apple, uh, Microsoft, generating incredible amounts of revenue, having very high operating margins, very high cash flow margins, and the ability to, um, invest, right, uh, some of those cash flows into this, uh, AI, uh, build. What was different about the Oracle announcement, um, [lips smack] is now you're seeing kind of some leverage come into, right? Where it's actually not just the free cash flow-positive companies that are investing, it's actually free cash flow-negative companies that are investing, right? So OpenAI, as an example, right, is making a, a huge bet, right? It's not producing free cash yet, um, but it kind of sees, uh, a version of the future where it- demand for its products kinda keep increasing. So, um, I do think that's something that, um, we spend a lot of time kind of looking at and thinking about. Uh, the question now will be: Does the competitive intensity between the hyperscalers really start to intensify, right? We kinda had a staid oligopoly, I would say, where Amazon kind of started, then Microsoft, and then Google kinda crept in-

   3. JAJack Altman4:02

      Yeah

   4. TLThomas Laffont4:02

      ... and it was kind of the three of them for a bit. Boy, does that feel different today, right? You've got, um, Oracle-

   5. JAJack Altman4:09

      Mm-hmm

   6. TLThomas Laffont4:10

      ... putting its foot into the ground, and now, I think, establishing itself as an absolutely key player. You could see them getting to maybe fifteen percent market share of cloud in a few years, from essentially zero. Um, you have companies like CoreWeave, right? GPU-only cloud. So [lips smack] I do think the market competition is intensifying. Um, there's more companies now. It's not just cashflow companies that are investing.

   7. JAJack Altman4:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TLThomas Laffont4:37

      Both, right, uh, OpenAI, Anthropic, are making huge investments.

   9. JAJack Altman4:40

      Yeah.

   10. TLThomas Laffont4:41

       So I do think it- the stakes, to me, feel different, right-

   11. JAJack Altman4:44

       Yes

   12. TLThomas Laffont4:44

       ... uh, than they were maybe two years ago. So that's one, how I would change the element. You know, the environment feels a little bit different to me.

   13. JAJack Altman4:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TLThomas Laffont4:52

       It's one thing if Meta's saying, "Well, I'm so profitable. I have so much money, I'm just gonna choose to sprinkle some of my cash flows into AI." Like, that's one thing.

   15. JAJack Altman5:00

       Yeah.

   16. TLThomas Laffont5:01

       We've now moved into a different phase, where I think companies are saying, "No, it feels more existential. I'm actually willing to invest significantly more, maybe even more than the cash flows that I'm producing," in the case of some players in the ecosystem, right, to go and win this market.

   17. JAJack Altman5:14

       Mm-hmm.

   18. TLThomas Laffont5:15

       Um, so I think it's, uh, it's a sign of multiple things, right? And to me, the biggest one is the intensity and the criticalness is increasing, and so I think, uh, our vigilance, um, has to increase as well.

3. 5:31 – 10:36

   Investing from inception through IPO

   1. JAJack Altman5:31

      The companies that you just talked about, for the most part, you know, huge, behemoth public companies. And, um, what's interesting is, if you look back at, like, the ZRPT bubble, the, the private company bubble happened. But I would argue that the, like, the QQQ, like the, the Mag Seven, they, I think, were... Looks like they were undervalued, and they took a dip, but it's, like, much higher now in a way that's different than what happened in private markets, and particularly early-stage private markets.... obviously, Coatue invests from, you know, inception round through IPO. And so when you're thinking about this, you know, AI transformational moment that you're talking about, that, you know, I think we kind of all agree is real, you could look at that and say, "Okay, I can invest in these, you know, these huge public companies. I can invest in Oracle, I could invest in the labs, I could invest in growth private, I could invest in seed." You know, you've got, you know, a big team that's capable of, you know, walking and chewing gum at the same time. To what extent do you think at a high level about the market, and where should buckets of capital be deployed versus finding just individual, "I like this seed, and I like Oracle, and I'm not thinking about, you know, the buckets. I'm just thinking about birds?"

   2. TLThomas Laffont6:45

      Yeah. So we, we do tend to be very thematic, and I use this often, but having a wide aperture lens into the world of technology globally, public and private, um, US and kind of rest of the world. Um, so I think about, okay, what, what do I, what do I know and have conviction in, right? Well, um, I started my career as a semiconductor analyst, uh, for Coatue, uh, partially because I was trying to find a semi analyst and couldn't find one. And Philippe one day came into my office and dropped a universe, which was essentially like all the semi names in a spreadsheet that was printed, and said, "Well, we can't find anybody, so you do it." Right? Um, and so I just took it upon myself to kind of learn the semi business. This was in the early 2000s. Um, so what do I know? I know that, um, we're not gonna have AI without semis. So semis are kind of a foundational layer. Um, so when I think about AI infrastructure, I think about we're gonna need semis, we're gonna need data centers, and we're gonna need power. So all three of those, to me, present really interesting investing opportunities, right? Across both actually public and private. So if you think about semis, obviously, NVIDIA, uh, to me, maybe the other great tech story that I think very few people know about, but Hock Tan at, at Avago Broadcom, right, um, one point seven trillion of market cap, um, might, might soon be, um, uh, as big as Meta.

   3. JAJack Altman8:12

      Wow!

   4. TLThomas Laffont8:12

      I think Meta's one point seven, and I think Avago is one point four, so they're- he's kind of closing in-

   5. JAJack Altman8:17

      Wow.

   6. TLThomas Laffont8:17

      - uh, which is an amazing story. Um, so I know that-- And then private companies like Cerebras that are innovating-

   7. JAJack Altman8:24

      Mm-hmm

   8. TLThomas Laffont8:24

      ... and doing interesting things, right? So I'm a big believer kind of in that layer.

   9. JAJack Altman8:28

      How would you play power, out of curiosity?

   10. TLThomas Laffont8:30

       [lips smack] Um, nuclear is one.

   11. JAJack Altman8:33

       Fusion or fission or?

   12. TLThomas Laffont8:35

       Um, I would say we don't quite have, uh, you know, the conviction yet on fusion and whether it's gonna work or not, but I do think there's two technologies today that are critical. So one is nuclear. So Consta- Constellation Energy, as an example, has now done what's called behind-the-meter deals with Amazon, right, and Microsoft, where those can tie directly into some of their plants. They just did a deal, uh, with Josh Shap- Shapiro in Pennsylvania to kind of, uh, reactivate one of the, one of the reactors there. Um, so that's one. And then GE Vernova, right, with liquid gas, um, generators.

   13. JAJack Altman9:12

       Yep.

   14. TLThomas Laffont9:12

       Right. So as it turns out, we have a lot of liquid gas-

   15. JAJack Altman9:15

       Mm

   16. TLThomas Laffont9:15

       ... in this country. It's clean. Um, it's extractable. Uh, the issue is, they're basically sold out of capacity for the next five years.

   17. JAJack Altman9:24

       Mm.

   18. TLThomas Laffont9:25

       Um, but that's an example, right, of, of the trend, and I think-

   19. JAJack Altman9:30

       Yeah

   20. TLThomas Laffont9:30

       ... we have a lot of, um, [lips smack] uh, belief, uh, that value is gonna accrue there, and you're not gonna be able to have AI without that foundational layer. So that's, that's kind of maybe kind of layer one-

   21. JAJack Altman9:41

       Yeah

   22. TLThomas Laffont9:41

       ... right? High conviction. I think layer two, now, moving up the value chain, one, is we definitely think models are gonna be important. Um, it does feel like the world is kind of coalescing around a handful of companies. Um, you know, I would probably put OpenAI, Anthropic, um, I would definitely put Google, right, kind of in there. Um, and maybe there's... You know, we'll see what Meta ends up doing. We'll see what kind of Microsoft and Amazon end up doing.

   23. JAJack Altman10:13

       Yep.

   24. TLThomas Laffont10:14

       Um, so I think that's gonna be, uh, the foundational models are gonna be incredibly important. They're gonna power transformative apps like ChatGPT, which, um, you know, as you know, has completely transformed, you know, how we work and our expectations of how software is gonna work. So I would say very high conviction in kind of each of those, right?

4. 10:36 – 14:04

   Depreciation of the system of record

   1. TLThomas Laffont10:36

      I think now as I start to get to layer three, um, you know, my lens probably gets a little bit fuzzier.

   2. JAJack Altman10:43

      Now we're talking applications.

   3. TLThomas Laffont10:45

      Correct.

   4. JAJack Altman10:45

      Yeah.

   5. TLThomas Laffont10:45

      Right. So what do I know there? Well, I do think the data layer is gonna be foundational and really important. I think, um, curious to get your view as a SaaS founder, but my view is the era of data being locked into SaaS platforms is over. Um, there was an underreported, but in my opinion, very significant, uh, press release put out two weeks ago by Workday, where it essentially came out and said: Um, we're giving up on trying to kind of keep all of our data inside of our locked SaaS ecosystem. We're gonna plug into Snowflake. We're gonna plug into Databricks, right? We're gonna give customers the ability to merge their, their Workday HR data with some of their other data to kind of power an adjunctive future, right? To me, I think that's critical. Um, and, uh, Carl, the CEO of Workday, was on the board of Snowflake, right? So he understands the data landscape really well. [lips smack] I think that's gonna unlock... Now, Workday, its future is about building the best Fortune 500 grade agents for HR and finance-

   6. JAJack Altman11:49

      Mm-hmm

   7. TLThomas Laffont11:49

      ... right? Not, uh, where's my data stored? Like I said, do I even really care about that? I mean, of course, it's got to be secure and stuff like that, but, boy, I want a amazing agent and stuff like that. So I do think that data layer, I think Snowflake and Databricks and other companies like that, is gonna be kind of foundational. Um, I-... now I get to, like, the apps, right? And one area where I'm spending a lot of time personally is trying to think through what does this mean for a workday, for the whole SaaS ecosystem as we've known it, right? Um, is software dead, as, you know, a lot of people have kind of been writing about over the past 12 to 18 months?

   8. JAJack Altman12:30

      Well, a bit of what you're describing-

   9. TLThomas Laffont12:31

      Or does it get reinvented?

   10. JAJack Altman12:32

       It almost sounds like what you're describing is, like, is the system of record dead? Like, you know, kind of like what I'm imagining as I'm listening to what you're saying is you've got Snowflake or Databricks. There's a system of record that's traditionally stores the data that then integrates with a lot of ecosystem apps, and many of those ecosystem apps today might look like companies that are agents or, like, doing work for you. And so then the question is, what's the role of where that data's stored? Does it just go straight to the databases?

   11. TLThomas Laffont13:00

       So I do think the system of record is dead. Um, I also think, by the way, another, uh, belief that I have is that every interaction within the enterprise, within three years, will be recorded. Um, and I think the default is gonna be record on versus... Ironic, since we're taping right now, but [chuckles] right. Um, the default is just gonna be an assumption that this meeting is being recorded. So why is that? Because if you think about the intelligence of an enterprise that should get fed into a system of record, it's all coming from interactions that are in meetings, that are over email or Slack or over Zooms, right? How's my customer doing? How's my sales process doing? All of that is, by and large, captured, and even in-person meetings, right, I think people will start recording. So all of that can be fed into, right, automatically. Why do I even really need to write a note on what was just discussed, right? Actually, the system should- is listening, will extract all the information, right, and knowledge, and then it can just be kind of queried later.

5. 14:04 – 18:46

   Value beyond databases

   1. JAJack Altman14:04

      It's an interesting prompt about the system of record. So obviously, one of the things that a system of record does is it holds the data, which I agree with you, I don't think that is like... That doesn't seem, like, that important in the future. I'm thinking through in real time right now, but, like, other things it does is coordination between the other apps, making sure the data is consistent.

   2. TLThomas Laffont14:23

      Yep.

   3. JAJack Altman14:24

      It makes it tamper-proof. You know, so security's a big deal.

   4. TLThomas Laffont14:26

      Yep.

   5. JAJack Altman14:27

      Um, you know, it, it, it, um, it gives the customer a central place so that they're not working with nine million vendors all of the time-

   6. TLThomas Laffont14:35

      Yep

   7. JAJack Altman14:35

      ... and they have some sense of how their business systems are working.

   8. TLThomas Laffont14:38

      Yep.

   9. JAJack Altman14:39

      So there's some other things there, and I'm curious how that could shake out otherwise. I mean, maybe you could see a world where, like, the Databricks, Snowflake layer become massive companies because they start kind of really being the hub of all that stuff. But it does feel like there's some ecos- You know, as I think about a Workday, a ServiceNow, a Salesforce, there are some functions of those products that aren't just databases.

   10. TLThomas Laffont15:02

       I agree. So I do think the databases of... And, and I think Snowflake and Databricks will be very large companies. I think the role of Workday will, A, sit on top of it as a validator of, "Okay, this is, this is, like, important data, and, you know, we, we validate it and kind of stand by it." But the future will be... Okay, now, actually, think about Workday, that in the past only saw kind of its own data, right? Now, Workday is gonna be able to make HR and coaching decisions based on the entire dataset, right? Potentially, even the recorded meeting dataset.

   11. JAJack Altman15:35

       Yeah.

   12. TLThomas Laffont15:36

       So yesterday, we hosted for one of our early-stage companies, an AI compliance summit. So we had the head of AI for the SEC and the GCs, and compliance of all the kind of major kind of investing firms. And we had the chief compliance officer of Meta, as an example. And I was discussing with him my, my view that meetings will be recorded, right? And his mind, as a chief compliance officer, went like: "Oh, my God, this is a nightmare. Like, I, I don't want, I don't wanna know. I, I want no transcripts. I don't want the data." And I said, "Okay, well, let me give you two scenarios, okay? Scenario one is you have a bad actor in your enterprise. He's belligerent in meetings, uh, says completely-"

   13. JAJack Altman16:15

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TLThomas Laffont16:15

       "-awful things. Um, he's demeaning to other people, you know, all the vile things that you can imagine, right? No one speaks up 'cause they're too afraid, and turns out six years later, one person actually speaks up. Now, everybody comes out of the woodwork. Now, you're on a defense.

   15. JAJack Altman16:30

       Mm-hmm.

   16. TLThomas Laffont16:30

       You have to go on, 'Well, why didn't you tell me?' 'Well, I was afraid because the boss likes him.' Now, you got a whole shitshow to deal with, right? So that's-

   17. JAJack Altman16:38

       Yeah

   18. TLThomas Laffont16:38

       ... version one of the world. My version of the world is actually the meeting's being recorded, right, and the compliance agent afterwards seeks out that individual and says, 'By the way, um, uh, your behavior w-wasn't appropriate, um, right? And for this reason... And I'm gonna suggest some coaching to you.' Or, uh, it's, it's not even just necessarily, like, an HR thing. It could be, um, what you actually talked about is anti-competitive, um-

   19. JAJack Altman17:07

       Mm-hmm

   20. TLThomas Laffont17:08

       ... and it's not something that we can do, right?"

   21. JAJack Altman17:10

       So only the agent's reading this stuff-

   22. TLThomas Laffont17:12

       So-

   23. JAJack Altman17:12

       -it's not something visible to employees?

   24. TLThomas Laffont17:13

       That could be kind of step one, is the agent just goes to the actor and offers remediation.

   25. JAJack Altman17:19

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TLThomas Laffont17:20

       Assuming it's not so egregious that it has to be. Stage two might be, "I'm sorry, that's your second violation, right? Now, you have to go through a mandatory three-day compliance process." And step three is actually now it's been flagged to HR, right?

   27. JAJack Altman17:32

       Yeah.

   28. TLThomas Laffont17:33

       I, I'm just kind of inventing the system, right?

   29. JAJack Altman17:35

       Yep.

   30. TLThomas Laffont17:35

       But you can see that now companies are gonna be able to diffuse issues before the grenade's gone off-
6. 18:46 – 23:43

   Winning strategies in venture

   1. JAJack Altman18:46

      So I'm curious, as we've been talking about, you know, public, private, early, late stage, um, I asked you before if you identify as a VC. You're like, "No, not really an investor," you know, that includes making investments that look like VC investments. When you sort of look ar- you know, at the world around you and sort of how VC is evolving, I'm curious your read on what's the winning-est strategy or strategies in venture today. Like, when you think about who's really doing venture in the right way, in your estimation today, how do you think about that? Who do you sort of look towards, or what are the models that make the most sense to you now?

   2. TLThomas Laffont19:23

      Yeah. So look, we started, um, which is a couple of million under management, right? So we kinda grew the business organically by kinda compounding over time, right? Um, and, uh, Philippe and I have always run, uh, the business in a way where we just try and think what's in the best kind of long-term interests of our business, right, and don't make kind of short-term decisions. Um, we never had the luxury in venture of... [lips smack] You know, I sometimes use this analogy of, of venture and, and investing is kind of a river, and, you know, the good investments are kind of swimming in the river, right? And, uh, if you got there early, you got the best spot, kind of, you know, that, that protrudes into and you kind of ca- capture the best fish. And, you know, we didn't get there early, so, um, you know, I, I don't have, like, the best spot on the river, like some of the firms that have been doing it for a really long time, or a, a founder that started a generational internet company, right? So, um, we had to, to just try and rub shoulders and elbow and be the seventh player on that. That wasn't kind of interesting to me as a founder, right? Um, I'm sure when you decided to do your podcast, well, there's a ton of podcasts out there. So I'm not gonna just do, like, what the 17 other people are doing. I'm gonna try and do something different. Well, we, we kind of brought the same approach, and we thought that what was uniquely suited to us, right, was, well, since I don't have the best plot of land, uh, on the riverbank, right, where maybe, like, Benchmark and Sequoia sit, I'm actually just gonna be the fisherman that just could- just travels up and down, right? And I'm just gonna try and find the best opportunities kind of as I see them. And I think it's more common now, but back then it really was: No, you stay in your place. You know, we're gonna be-

   3. JAJack Altman21:04

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   4. TLThomas Laffont21:05

      ... here on our part of the river, and then there'll be another cast of characters on the other.

   5. JAJack Altman21:09

      Yeah.

   6. TLThomas Laffont21:10

      And then, you know, and so forth and so on, right? And then, [lips smack] uh, uh, to their credit, players like, uh, Yuri Milner and Tiger came in-

   7. JAJack Altman21:18

      Yeah

   8. TLThomas Laffont21:18

      ... and said, "Well, hold on. Why, why is that the case," right?

   9. JAJack Altman21:21

      Yep.

   10. TLThomas Laffont21:22

       So, um, as it happens, it also tends to suit my personality, right? Which is, um, I don't tend to think about whether a company is private or public. I don't tend to think about whether my time is spent between public or private, right? Because some of the best research that I do for my public investing is by meeting private companies or vice versa.

   11. JAJack Altman21:45

       Yep.

   12. TLThomas Laffont21:46

       Right? So sometimes investors will ask me, investors in our platform, right, they'll ask me, um, "Well, what... How do you kind of spend your time?" I think from a research basis, I, I don't think about it that way. I really talk to companies, find big themes, find big trends, and then-

   13. JAJack Altman22:03

       Yeah

   14. TLThomas Laffont22:03

       ... find companies that can kind of, uh, benefit from them.

   15. JAJack Altman22:06

       Yeah. I think in venture, one of the things that has morphed recently, that probably has moved, I would imagine, directionally more towards your way of thinking, is it's okay to scale, and there are many ways to be successful, and you don't just have to have 20X small early-stage funds. Like, a lot of venture capitalists who I think maybe started small have gotten much bigger and are saying, "We're still gonna get, you know, very good returns, but it's gonna look different. It's gonna be a much bigger capital base, and it's okay if we didn't hit it at the seed because we can get it at the B, or C-

   16. TLThomas Laffont22:41

       Yeah

   17. JAJack Altman22:42

       ... or D or, or so on."

   18. TLThomas Laffont22:42

       And that's certainly my thinking, and the thing I dislike the most about venture is, um, the zero-sum nature of the business at times, right? Where there's a round, there's only X amount of dollars, and every dollar that you take is a dollar that I don't have.

   19. JAJack Altman23:01

       Yes.

   20. TLThomas Laffont23:02

       Um, I-

   21. JAJack Altman23:03

       Which is the source of competition between firms, obviously, because-

   22. TLThomas Laffont23:05

       Correct.

   23. JAJack Altman23:06

       Yeah.

   24. TLThomas Laffont23:06

       And it, it feeds into a lot of different types of behavior and, and things like that. My approach as a public market investor was always like: Great, if you have a great idea, let's bat it around, because guess what?

   25. JAJack Altman23:17

       We can both do it.

   26. TLThomas Laffont23:18

       We can both benefit. So I'm- have built my whole life and business model basically against being a, um, zero-sum thinker.

   27. JAJack Altman23:29

       Mm-hmm.

   28. TLThomas Laffont23:30

       Right? Um, so that's the piece that is the toughest for me, right, um, is when I run into, you know, on either end, [sniffs] a situation where somebody has to win and somebody has to lose.

   29. JAJack Altman23:42

       Yeah. So

7. 23:43 – 28:56

   Operating at early-stage

   1. JAJack Altman23:43

      how do you navigate that? 'Cause I guess in your, in your public world, maybe to some extent in your very late-stage private world, there's probably more supply- or there's probably more, uh, demand for dollars from the companies than, you know, any given firm-

   2. TLThomas Laffont23:55

      Yeah

   3. JAJack Altman23:55

      ... even as big as Coatue is gonna supply it. The early-stage rounds are more competitive. Obviously, like, VC is, like, somewhat tribal in nature, and there are these kind of like co-opetition, f- you know, friend circles in venture, where even people who should be economically competitive decide to play a repeated game and, you know.

   4. TLThomas Laffont24:14

      Yeah.

   5. JAJack Altman24:14

      So how do you operate, you know-

   6. TLThomas Laffont24:16

      Uh

   7. JAJack Altman24:16

      ... on, on the early-stage side?

   8. TLThomas Laffont24:17

      ... Yeah, a couple things there is one is, um, you're right, that VC is really tribal. Um, my view is I like to visit all the different villagers, you know? So I'm not one of the villagers, but I'm accepted by most of them, and I come in, and I try and kind of leave the pl- the village better than, you know, when I walked in. So I have a lot of friends at, at different firms and, you know, I always try and tell them that, uh, the bar of, of whether, um, uh, we were successful or not is, you know, we, we had a positive contribution on the company, um, or the board or, you know, whatever. Um, but that tribal element is, is just kind of part of it. What, uh... I was seeing a tweet from Cre- uh, Keith Rabois, who I, I, I love his brain and how he thinks, and, um, and he had analysis of his deals that he had looked at year to date by geography, and it's actually something that I do as well. I look a lot at my own P&L and in both public and private. One of the elements of my private P&L that's interesting is I looked at maybe the top 10 to 15 P&L winners that I've had over my career on the private side. Without exception, my first opportunity to invest was a no. It might have been a no from me to the company passing or vice versa, the company passing on me. What's funny about both of those moments is, um, you kind of think, like, "Wow, it's over!" You know? Um, and in fact, what ended up happening is opportunities to invest later came around, and as it turns out, um, they were very successful. So I've, I've tried a lot to think about, well, what, what's my learning from that, right? And then to me, the way I've thought about it is sometimes it just takes a while-

   9. JAJack Altman26:06

      Yeah

   10. TLThomas Laffont26:06

       ... for an investor to understand a company and for a company to understand an investor.

   11. JAJack Altman26:10

       We know, obviously, we don't have nearly as wide an aperture of rounds, but we have a little bit, and I often will say, "You know, we didn't miss a company, we just missed a round, and that if it's gonna be great, hopefully there's another way, and whether you passed or they passed."

   12. TLThomas Laffont26:21

       Yeah.

   13. JAJack Altman26:22

       Um, obviously, it changes the, um, it changes the return multiple, but, um, in many situations, it doesn't really make that much of a difference in the exit number of absolute dollars that come out.

   14. TLThomas Laffont26:33

       Correct.

   15. JAJack Altman26:33

       Yeah.

   16. TLThomas Laffont26:34

       And so to me, that mindset is one where, well, if I'm only doing Series A, then I have to think differently, right? Because almost by definition of-

   17. JAJack Altman26:41

       You get one shot

   18. TLThomas Laffont26:41

       ... those types of firms, I only get one shot. I get one bullet, so I gotta be really careful. Um, so that does tend to lead to a more zero sum. Like, "Hey, this is my one chance to be in this company. I can't afford to lose it. I can't afford to give a single dollar to anybody else-

   19. JAJack Altman26:57

       Yep

   20. TLThomas Laffont26:58

       ... because this is my one shot."

   21. JAJack Altman26:59

       Yep.

   22. TLThomas Laffont27:00

       I think that's a increasingly difficult game, right? Um, my way of doing it is, okay, well, I may never be, you know, the best, but, uh, at any, you know, individual point, but I do have the ability to kind of float around, um, and try and find the best opportunities.

   23. JAJack Altman27:17

       Have you ever looked back, you know, on the P&L or geography question? Have you ever, like, looked back and just been like, "Ah, we've made the most money at venture stage, or growth stage, or pri-" like, do you know where you end up doing the best?

   24. TLThomas Laffont27:29

       I do, um, and-

   25. JAJack Altman27:33

       Does that influence your behavior then? Or you-

   26. TLThomas Laffont27:35

       It changes.

   27. JAJack Altman27:35

       Yeah.

   28. TLThomas Laffont27:35

       You know, like, um, there was a time, as an example, where China was an incredible market for investors.

   29. JAJack Altman27:40

       Mm.

   30. TLThomas Laffont27:41

       Um, and we were very successful in that market. That market is functionally not available to us anymore. So you do have to just kind of adapt, right? Um, there was a time where, you know, SaaS was, um, everything, right, and the future, and now it seems like AI is kind of... So I think you, you have to- I don't want to read too, too narrow into it, because-
8. 28:56 – 34:29

   Navigating investing conflicts

   1. TLThomas Laffont28:56

      things like that.

   2. JAJack Altman28:56

      Because you think thematically, I assume, and because you invest late stage, I would assume a lot of times you want to invest in multiple companies in a sector, and clearly, the public, you know, side, that's totally fine, but you probably also want to do it at the private side. And you and I chatted a little bit before, and a lot of the people I've spoken to on this podcast have said that, you know, in venture, conflicts are, like, a, a big challenge, and particularly as v- venture firms scale, it's actually a really big challenge.

   3. TLThomas Laffont29:25

      Yeah.

   4. JAJack Altman29:25

      Um-

   5. TLThomas Laffont29:25

      I remember Mark's quote on, uh, on that, right? His, his biggest stumbling block towards scaling was-

   6. JAJack Altman29:30

      Yeah, I said-

   7. TLThomas Laffont29:31

      Was that

   8. JAJack Altman29:31

      ... "What's your number one problem scaling?"

   9. TLThomas Laffont29:32

      Yep.

   10. JAJack Altman29:32

       That was the one.

   11. TLThomas Laffont29:33

       Yep.

   12. JAJack Altman29:33

       And, um, I think you have a divergent view here, so I'd be interested to hear it.

   13. TLThomas Laffont29:38

       Yeah. Look, I do think traditional venture capitalists have set themselves up to be the entrepreneur's first call. And so think about it as a, as a founder of my own business, do I want to try and compete with every other person that's trying to be the person's first call? Well, no, actually, I'm trying to be your second call. [chuckles] So the first call, you're gonna call your VC that's been with you, and for a long time, and then you're gonna think, "Okay, well, what do I do about this now, and who can I turn to help?" I want to be the second call, where it's like, "Gee, why don't we call Thomas and see if he knows somebody, or has a point of view on a market, or can make an introduction?"

   14. JAJack Altman30:15

       It's also a lot more scalable for you, a lot less phone calls.

   15. TLThomas Laffont30:18

       ... um, different types of phone calls, right?

   16. JAJack Altman30:20

       Yep.

   17. TLThomas Laffont30:20

       Different stakes on the phone calls.

   18. JAJack Altman30:22

       I assume they're, uh, they're, they're, uh, trickier phone calls if-

   19. TLThomas Laffont30:25

       They can be.

   20. JAJack Altman30:25

       If they get in there.

   21. TLThomas Laffont30:26

       Um, so look, I still believe that if you're a 20% owner and on a board of a Series A company, that to back another company that does the exact same thing in the exact same framework-

   22. JAJack Altman30:37

       Yep

   23. TLThomas Laffont30:37

       ... um, I think that's a legitimate conflict, and we don't do that. But I do think that, um, the position of conflict that I have, um, has also a lot of benefits, right? It might mean domain expertise, because I'm able to see the whole playing field.

   24. JAJack Altman30:54

       Mm-hmm.

   25. TLThomas Laffont30:54

       Right? Um, it might mean a very deep network in a certain industry. Um, so I think there can be significant advantages there. Now, you have to do it the right way, and so to me, there's a couple foundational principles of if I'm gonna invest in conflicting companies. Um, the first thing is, I'm gonna tell the entrepreneur first. So I am a big believer in disclosure, right? So if I'm in two companies that might have or might be perceived-

   26. JAJack Altman31:24

       Mm-hmm

   27. TLThomas Laffont31:25

       ... right? Because then you get into, well, is the conflict real, or is it just imagined by a f- the founder?

   28. JAJack Altman31:30

       Of course.

   29. TLThomas Laffont31:31

       Right? And sometimes we might have a different view on what a, a conflict is, right? Um, but I'm mostly gonna kinda disclose it, right? So that's kinda number one. And then the second is kinda trust and reputation, right? So the trust of making sure that information doesn't leak.

   30. JAJack Altman31:50

       Yep.
9. 34:29 – 36:45

   Wide aperture lens of investing

   1. JAJack Altman34:29

      you talked about the, like, wide aperture lens of investing, and sort of, um, you know, what it means to sort of have this kind of broader mindset. I'm curious, like, what that particular phrase means to you, 'cause, you know, when we were, when we were catching up, you used it a couple times.

   2. TLThomas Laffont34:44

      I really love technology. [lips smack] Um, I, uh, just have a curious mind. Uh, you know, from when I was a kid, I, uh, was the youngest in my family, and so I just... I read a lot and played a, played a lot of video games. So I was just really curious about the world. Um, [lips smack] and I think almost every great investor I've ever met, from Stan- Stan Druckenmiller to, uh, Marc Andreessen, or, you know, are, are just deeply curious about the world, right? And so I'm just lucky, where I don't have to be bound in my curiosity. I can just go out and seek out people and information, and then I kind of figure it out later on, what, what does it mean, or what's- where is it relevant? I don't have to use a filter, right, and say, "Well, because I can only do this, I probably have to focus."

   3. JAJack Altman35:36

      Yeah.

   4. TLThomas Laffont35:36

      Now, that can have a downside, right? It can mean that... In crypto, as an example, I think that served us poorly.

   5. JAJack Altman35:45

      Hmm.

   6. TLThomas Laffont35:45

      [lips smack] Because I think crypto was an area where deep specialization actually, in the beginning, really helped you, right? So it's not a perfect formula, [chuckles] right? Every- it's got trade-offs.

   7. JAJack Altman35:56

      Yeah.

   8. TLThomas Laffont35:57

      Right. Um, and I think the investors who early on when crypto came around, right, and were willing to deeply go down the rabbit hole, and specialize, and really understand something-

   9. JAJack Altman36:08

      Mm-hmm

   10. TLThomas Laffont36:08

       ... uh, that was brand new, right, that had no equivalent in the public market or anywhere else in the world, right? It was almost like this big bang. Yeah, I always think of Bitcoin as like a big bang that just kinda happened.

   11. JAJack Altman36:19

       Yep.

   12. TLThomas Laffont36:20

       Right. So I think, um-... uh, those investors kind of benefited. So it's, it's not foolproof, um, but I do think it's kind of how my mind has tended to work, and I've always kind of made, made bets on myself and, you know, on the parts of, of, [lips smack] uh, how I work that I thought were the most productive, and, you know, that's, that's-

   13. JAJack Altman36:43

       Yeah

   14. TLThomas Laffont36:44

       ... uh, one of them.

   15. JAJack Altman36:44

       We've

10. 36:45 – 40:30

    Star quality being a reality

    1. JAJack Altman36:45

       talked so far mostly about markets and themes. Obviously, you care a lot about, like, the founder and the person you're investing in, too.

    2. TLThomas Laffont36:52

       Yeah.

    3. JAJack Altman36:52

       I'm sure this is true at all stages. Like, I would guess even at the, you know, later stages of private, public companies, you're still thinking quite a lot about the person. What guides you on people?

    4. TLThomas Laffont37:05

       A lesson I learned at CAA is, uh, star quality is real. [lips smack] Um, most people don't have it, some do.

    5. JAJack Altman37:13

       What is it?

    6. TLThomas Laffont37:15

       Um, you just know it when you see it in a room. Um, Tom Cruise is, you know, maybe my favorite actor growing up. I've seen Top Gun a zillion times. I loved Maverick. I had the opportunity to meet him one day in a very kind of random setting. I was delivering a package to him, and, you know, he shook my hand and looked me in the eye, and we talked for three minutes, and, you know, for three minutes, I, I thought, "Wow, this- no one cares more about me in the world right now than Tom Cruise does", right? The way he just commands a room in his presence. But also when Colin Farrell came, uh, to us, and he had never been in a movie before, and you spent 30 minutes in a room with him, and, um, he just had so much magnetism about him, the way he composed himself and talked to you and looked at you, and just his general kind of persona. Um, so I do think that to me, um, I do look for that in founders. Um, it's, it's the combination of a mind at work and an opportunity that they're addressing, right? Um, I remember when I first met Evan from [lips smack] uh, Snap, he, you know, basically was making the argument that, look at the, look at the, um, generation of young people coming up with the Iraq War essentially having been, you might say, a hoax, right? The WMDs were never there. Rolling into the financial crisis, "Oh, you told us we had the best economic system, and then it almost collapsed," right? Uh, and then COVID, right. The, the- he built Snap as a platform, as a reflection of those trends, right? So what was it? Well, everything disappears, right? No one kind of stores your data. You can't trust institutions to look out for you. I think it ended up being incredibly prescient of where we are today as a world, right? Where the institutional breakdown that we've seen. So, um, I think that, that magnetism about, uh, a person in a room [lips smack] and an idea and a market that they're-

    7. JAJack Altman39:20

       Mm-hmm

    8. TLThomas Laffont39:20

       ... going after.

    9. JAJack Altman39:21

       Yeah.

    10. TLThomas Laffont39:21

        Um-

    11. JAJack Altman39:22

        One of the things I often think about with the magnetism quality is there's examples of people who have- who are pure magnets, where everybody loves them, and everybody wants them to succeed. And then there's examples where people are highly polar, where half the world loves them, and half the world hates them. And both of those work, but I think you gotta, you gotta at least have the strong pull-

    12. TLThomas Laffont39:41

        Yeah

    13. JAJack Altman39:42

        ... if not the whole thing.

    14. TLThomas Laffont39:43

        Well, uh, Travis from Uber is an example, right?

    15. JAJack Altman39:45

        Polar.

    16. TLThomas Laffont39:46

        I think if you, if you referenced him, to your point, half the people liked him and half hated him, right? I remember meeting him at the Goldman Sachs technology conference in Vegas, um, and it w- we were in, like, a little cubicle. [chuckles] You know, we had, like, 20 minutes-

    17. JAJack Altman40:04

        Mm-hmm

    18. TLThomas Laffont40:04

        ... right? [lips smack] And but man, I walked out thinking, "Wow, that is someone who's gonna dominate."

    19. JAJack Altman40:11

        Yeah.

    20. TLThomas Laffont40:11

        Right. So, um, so it, it doesn't necessarily mean magnetism, like, you know, uh, it, it could just be, you had their aura, their energy-

    21. JAJack Altman40:22

        Yeah

    22. TLThomas Laffont40:22

        ... you know?

    23. JAJack Altman40:23

        Yeah, it doesn't have to all be positive.

    24. TLThomas Laffont40:24

        Yeah. Yeah.

    25. JAJack Altman40:25

        Yeah.

    26. TLThomas Laffont40:25

        A competitiveness.

    27. JAJack Altman40:26

        But it does have to be strong-

    28. TLThomas Laffont40:27

        Right

    29. JAJack Altman40:27

        ... I think.

    30. TLThomas Laffont40:28

        Absolutely.
11. 40:30 – 48:25

    Firm strategy and decision making

    1. JAJack Altman40:30

       When you're making these investment decisions, you know, one of the things that is often hard is some of the great founders are, uh, not to everyone's taste. And so, you know, a lot of the best investment decisions were extremely contentious in a firm. I think, you know, this probably relates to how a firm is run overall, where you have... You know, there's the investment decision process, which can either be single trigger or fully unanimous or somewhere in the middle. There's how a whole firm is run, which can be, you know, a CEO, you know, hierarchical model or an equal partnership. Um, I'm curious just to hear your reflections after being in it and around, both at the decision-making level and at the firm level, you know, especially as you think about the fact that a lot of what needs to happen is kind of counterintuitive a lot of times.

    2. TLThomas Laffont41:18

       Yeah. I've always envied firms that had this, quote, "investment committee", where the, the, the wise men and women would get together and decide yes or no.

    3. JAJack Altman41:28

       Then the smoke's gonna go up the chimney.

    4. TLThomas Laffont41:30

       Exactly. [lips smack] Um, we've tended not to do well in that environment. Um, what I would say, and we do have an investment committee, but it's, uh, the way we've tended to work is just momentums of deals, you know? And we're very collaborative from the very beginning. So people will come in and pitch an idea, the public market team's gonna opine, you know, Philippe's gonna have a point of view. You're gonna be fielding information, points of view, possible connection points.

    5. JAJack Altman42:00

       You're talking about internal momentum, like there's a groundswell inside Coatue-

    6. TLThomas Laffont42:03

       Correct

    7. JAJack Altman42:03

       ... of like-

    8. TLThomas Laffont42:04

       Yes

    9. JAJack Altman42:04

       ... by the time you get to a yes, it's like, "Come on, we gotta do this-

    10. TLThomas Laffont42:06

        Correct

    11. JAJack Altman42:06

        ... as a firm.

    12. TLThomas Laffont42:07

        Right. So-

    13. JAJack Altman42:08

        Yeah

    14. TLThomas Laffont42:09

        ... it's not any single meeting.

    15. JAJack Altman42:10

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TLThomas Laffont42:10

        And we do have, like, these check-ins over time, we pitch the idea, but it's incredibly collaborative where we solicit opinion incredibly early from a wide variety of people.

    17. JAJack Altman42:19

        That's similar to how we do it, actually. I've never heard it described that way, but by the time you get there, it's like there have been so many conversations, and you've worked so many kinks out, that you're not like debating-

    18. TLThomas Laffont42:28

        The investment committee is more like, okay.

    19. JAJack Altman42:30

        It's been a process.

    20. TLThomas Laffont42:31

        Correct.

    21. JAJack Altman42:31

        Yeah.

    22. TLThomas Laffont42:32

        Or the opposite is that the no's tend to not necessarily happen by then. It's just an idea peters out, and it loses momentum. So the way we found more or less it works is-... and it's, you know, the number one thing I tell people when they join is, um, realize that when people wanna come in and, and chime in about something or help you with something, that's not credit being taken away, or that's actually what makes us better.

    23. JAJack Altman43:00

        Mm-hmm.

    24. TLThomas Laffont43:01

        So yeah, if we're pitching a software idea, the software analyst who covers our, our public business is gonna chime in with, with an idea and with a point of view, right? And in fact, if we don't, 'cause you don't want to then be in that meeting and say, "Well, what, what does so-and-so say?" "Oh, well, I didn't ask him."

    25. JAJack Altman43:16

        Yeah.

    26. TLThomas Laffont43:16

        "What do you mean you didn't ask him? He's an expert in this space. He works at Coatue, and you didn't ask him what he thinks about this idea?" Um, so I solicit input really early on. I wanna get that feedback, whether it's positive or negative, how to improve the idea, how to make it better. I wanna iterate it in real time, right? Um, versus just having this Holy Grail moment in a meeting-

    27. JAJack Altman43:40

        Yeah

    28. TLThomas Laffont43:40

        ... the perfect deck, where all of the data that you need is there to make this decision, and all, you know, the council of popes, um, has gotten, uh, of cardinals has gotten-

    29. JAJack Altman43:49

        Yeah

    30. TLThomas Laffont43:49

        ... together, right?
12. 48:25 – 54:34

    Everything that’s great about golf

    1. JAJack Altman48:25

       Okay, total gear change. Um, it turned out we have, uh, some similar interests. I got into golf last year, which I'm kind of embarrassed to admit, but here I am, started becoming a investor and I picked up golf, and I think it's awesome. Um, I'm still really bad, but we chatted a tiny bit before, and you were actually talking about it in a much deeper way than, like, a excuse to just, like, get out and have fun. Um, what, what has your experience with golf been?

    2. TLThomas Laffont48:51

       ... golf changed my life. Just point blank, without, um, exception, my life would be completely different if I, I had chosen not to play. And I think that can sound strange to maybe people that don't play or don't understand the game. Like, "What do you mean, it kinda changed your life?" Well, it, it, it really has. Um, the amount of people that I've met, um, mentors that I've had, [lips smack] ah, through the game of golf has, um, just been incomparable. Uh, the, the game is so layered, right? There's, there's an integrity layer, which I really like, which is at the end of the day, in golf, you're responsible for your own score. There's so many opportunities to cheat in golf where no one would really know.

    3. JAJack Altman49:36

       Yep.

    4. TLThomas Laffont49:36

       Right? Moving your ball slightly out of a divot, right? Sometimes an inch can make a complete difference, right? So I love the, the continuous test of integrity and character that it shows, right? Um, the, the competition, at the end of the day, you're not, you're not really competing against anyone else, you're kinda competing against yourself, right? The ball doesn't move, it's right there. You just have to kinda decide on how to execute the shot. So there's dynamics of the game that I love, but to me, those are entirely secondary to the social element, right? And the opportunity to spend four hours with, um, either a close friend who's having a difficult time, or someone I've just met and who I don't know, and we're not looking at our phones, right? Um, we're actually kind of in the open air, right, walking-

    5. JAJack Altman50:30

       Yeah

    6. TLThomas Laffont50:32

       ... is so rare in this world, right? There's a d- there's a defined end, right? So it's not like you're having a coffee with someone, and someone's wondering, like, "Oh, gee, you know, do I have to go to my next meeting?" or-

    7. JAJack Altman50:42

       Yeah

    8. TLThomas Laffont50:42

       ... "Sh- is, is it time to go?" Right, so we know, we're on hole 1.

    9. JAJack Altman50:45

       Yep.

    10. TLThomas Laffont50:46

        We're gonna go through 18, and by the way, afterwards, we're gonna sit, and we're gonna have an iced tea or a beer, and we're gonna just kinda catch up, right? Um, it's an incredible test of, of character. Um-

    11. JAJack Altman50:56

        Oh, yeah. I mean, it's so frustrating. You have to, like, have such control-

    12. TLThomas Laffont51:00

        How people respond, right, to adversity. Sometimes the, the, the inherent randomness of golf and where your ball's gonna bounce. So, um, but for me, fundamentally, um, it's about the people.

    13. JAJack Altman51:13

        Also, just the presence to not be on your phone is so hard to come by. We actually talked about a couple other interests that we both... You know, like video games.

    14. TLThomas Laffont51:22

        Yep.

    15. JAJack Altman51:22

        I love video games, and for, I think, a partially similar reason, I love, like, listening to vinyl records. I think things that force you to just be present are so valuable-

    16. TLThomas Laffont51:31

        Yeah

    17. JAJack Altman51:31

        ... because we're all just addicted to our phones all the time otherwise.

    18. TLThomas Laffont51:34

        Yeah, absolutely. Um, surfing's another really important part of my life, and, uh, very similar traits to golf, right? You're, you're kind of out in the water, you're not looking at your phone, you're kind of in the moment, you're kind of meeting other people in the lineup. So I always encourage people, um, do yourself a favor and, and learn how to play. You're just gonna spend incredible time with the friends that you already have-

    19. JAJack Altman51:59

        Yeah

    20. TLThomas Laffont51:59

        ... and you're gonna meet new friends. By the way, you're gonna meet new friends at different ages because what's also unique about the sport is, you can compete with anyone at any level. So if I'm an expert, I've been playing my whole life, and you're brand new, and you've been playing a month, you and I can have a competitive match. Think of how many sports in the world that's actually possible to do. Tennis, uh, UFC fighting, like Zuck or anything like that, impossible.

    21. JAJack Altman52:25

        Yep.

    22. TLThomas Laffont52:25

        In golf, you can pair people through the handicap system-

    23. JAJack Altman52:28

        Yes

    24. TLThomas Laffont52:29

        ... right, of completely different abilities and have a, a good match. What does that mean? It means you can play with people that are older. It means you can play with people that are younger. It means you can play with men and women and kids. You can all be paired up, and you can all be competitive and have fun.

    25. JAJack Altman52:46

        What's funny is when I- so I grew up in, like, a, you know, suburb of St. Louis, and I had, like... I, I don't know why, but I, I grew up with, like, sort of, like, an aversion to things that felt pretentious or snooty or country clubby, and I think I had golf bucketed there. And then when I learned that it's... I, I do think it's associated with some of that stuff, and that's, like, a separate thing, but just the game itself and the experience itself is so good.

    26. TLThomas Laffont53:10

        Look, no question, um, it doesn't have to be.

    27. JAJack Altman53:14

        Yeah.

    28. TLThomas Laffont53:15

        Uh, you know, something else I get is, "Oh, I, I, I gotta be good." It's like, "No, you don't."

    29. JAJack Altman53:19

        Yeah.

    30. TLThomas Laffont53:20

        You just gotta understand the rules, and to me, you gotta play fast.
13. 54:34 – 57:20

    Working with family

    1. JAJack Altman54:34

       You know, another example I think of is, like, you know, at SV Angel, um, you know, Ron-

    2. TLThomas Laffont54:38

       Yep

    3. JAJack Altman54:38

       ... gotten to work with-

    4. TLThomas Laffont54:39

       The Conways

    5. JAJack Altman54:39

       ... sons.

    6. TLThomas Laffont54:40

       Yep.

    7. JAJack Altman54:40

       And I think, like, that's just, like, special to work with family like that. And you've done it for a long time, and you've done it, um, in a obviously very successful, uh, and sort of hypercompetitive together way. Just like, what, what's, what has that meant for you? Like, what has it meant for the relationship?

    8. TLThomas Laffont54:55

       Um, I mean, Philippe and I talk-... every day, I mean, I can't even count, right?

    9. JAJack Altman55:01

       Absolutely.

    10. TLThomas Laffont55:01

        Countless times, right?

    11. JAJack Altman55:02

        Yeah.

    12. TLThomas Laffont55:03

        Um, I think to me, the, the biggest positive by far is, um, we don't question each other's motives, so there's no politics. Why? Because, uh, we know we're kind of stuck with each other, right? No matter what. Even whatever happened with Coatue, we're still gonna be brothers, right? So it completely eliminates a whole waste of energy around the politics-

    13. JAJack Altman55:26

        Mm-hmm

    14. TLThomas Laffont55:26

        ... and the, all the, this kind of stuff that can happen at other firms. Like, we just have none of that. He and I, um, I, I always laugh about this. I think we've talked about, um, economics, i.e., what, what he gets and what I get over the 20, almost 25 years we've been working together. If you accumulated the amount of time that we've discussed that topic, right, uh, for himself and for myself, it probably adds up to 30 minutes.

    15. JAJack Altman55:54

        And it's just because you trust that it'll be fair.

    16. TLThomas Laffont55:56

        Absolutely.

    17. JAJack Altman55:57

        Yeah.

    18. TLThomas Laffont55:57

        So we just- I just never think about it.

    19. JAJack Altman55:59

        That's amazing.

    20. TLThomas Laffont56:00

        And I go to everybody else, and I'm like: "Look, I wanna, I wanna keep, uh, you know, contributing, and, you know, and if I don't, then, you know, my economics have gotten diluted over time as others have come on," and, you know, I'm delighted by that. So, um, so it makes a lot of things simpler, right? Um, so that's, that's good. The bad is that it just... But I think that's just part of being a founder is, yeah, it's, it is kind of a- almost all you think about kind of all day long.

    21. JAJack Altman56:29

        Yep.

    22. TLThomas Laffont56:29

        You know, so it's-

    23. JAJack Altman56:31

        So it dominates the relationship, basically.

    24. TLThomas Laffont56:33

        When you're at a family dinner, you know, when there's a problem, at the end of the day, uh, it's, you know, it's-

    25. JAJack Altman56:38

        Right

    26. TLThomas Laffont56:38

        ... kind of upon us, right? So it can become really overwhelming, and it can be difficult, um, to turn it off, right, when we're together because it's kind of a lot of what we, we, we think about, right?

    27. JAJack Altman56:50

        Yeah.

    28. TLThomas Laffont56:50

        Um, so we've learned to modulate that and find actually activities like golf and others, right, where you can-

    29. JAJack Altman56:56

        Mm

    30. TLThomas Laffont56:56

        ... kind of turn the volume down a little bit on that. But, you know, actually, I was chatting with Jensen about this one day, and, um, you know, it's like, wh- what does it matter where you work, in an office, this, that? We're, we're kind of working all the time, right? I mean, it's, it's always on my mind. It's always something I'm thinking about. Um, so that's, that can be the downside.
14. 57:20 – 1:02:43

    Advice to young professionals

    1. JAJack Altman57:20

       Maybe a final question I would ask is, um, you know, you spend a lot of time... You talked about the importance of mentorship for you. Obviously, you spend a lot of time mentoring people. You talked about sort of, um, you know, young people coming up in Coatue, elsewhere. Any sort of, uh, things you find yourself repeating often when you're speaking with younger people?

    2. TLThomas Laffont57:38

       First of all, I think having a mentor is a blessing. Um, I was really fortunate where, um, you know, the, the first job I had out of college was, uh, I went to CAA, which is a talent agency in Los Angeles. Um, I got promoted to the desk of an agent. I ended up working with him for almost three years. And, um, to sit with someone in a room for that period of time, um, uh, th- this is Brian Lord, who actually still runs the agency to this day. To watch the integrity with which he pursued his career, um, and the way he just treated me as someone who made mistakes and just said, "Just don't do them again," right, um, is something that, um, yeah, it's kind of helped me my whole life, and I just think it's a more interesting and rewarding way to lead your life. Um, I do find sometimes in tech, we can be, you know, very focused on, um, the, the mission that we're driving, and I think the ability to kind of share it with others is so much more rewarding. So it's both being a mentor and then being a mentee, right? Um, it's something that I, I take a lot of pride in, and, uh, I always tell people when they, they think about coming to Coatue or investing in us, I'm like: Talk to everyone that's worked with me, uh, whether they still work with me or not. Um, I think that's how people kind of define themselves. So, uh, yeah, for me, it's a fundamentally kind of a core, uh, principle that I, that I live by.

    3. JAJack Altman59:14

       You mentioned something about, uh, gift wrapping.

    4. TLThomas Laffont59:17

       Yeah, so when, um, when I was at CAA, before, uh, you got to, uh, work on a desk, you had to work in the mail room, and that's literally what it was. We would kind of sort through mail. We would copy scripts. And I'm so grateful to have had that job because when you're starting out, I kind of tell young people, I'm like: Focus is a luxury, right? Think about the C- think about Jensen at NVIDIA today, the amount of things that he has to worry about. He's got China and what's going on there, and he's got Amazon trying to build competing chips, and, I mean, the, the... And he's got to run his own company, and he's got, like, the government. I mean, every day there's something new that he's gotta think about-

    5. JAJack Altman1:00:01

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    6. TLThomas Laffont1:00:02

       ... right? And he can't afford the luxury of just thinking about one thing. Well, generally, when you're starting in the workforce, you have the luxury of actually focusing on one thing. So I always tell people, I'm like: That is a luxury. En- enjoy it. So the, the example that I use is, um, during, uh, uh, you know, the holidays, we would send out a lot of gifts to our clients, and so we kind of had a, a gift wrapping station. And the way mostly it worked is an agent would put a gift in their outbox and say, "Gift wrap it for me." So you would take the gift, you would go down, you'd kind of wrap it as quickly as you could, you know, this, that, and you'd, you'd bring it back to the agent, right? So I looked at it as an opportunity to, uh, differentiate myself. So if I saw an agent, uh, a, a gift, I, I would take it, and I'd be very meticulous on how I gift wrapped it. And, um, I started experimenting with different techniques, and one that I really liked is actually putting cellophane around the paper, and it just kind of gave it a really glossy feel, and it looked really nice. So I went, I bought the, you know, the, the film myself, and I would put it, and I would kind of make these really nice gifts.

    7. JAJack Altman1:01:07

       It's like Dream, Dreams and Sushi.

    8. TLThomas Laffont1:01:08

       Yeah, exactly.

    9. JAJack Altman1:01:09

       For gift wrapping.

    10. TLThomas Laffont1:01:10

        Well, what ended up happening is that, um, agents ended up seeing, like, the nice gifts, and, uh, I ended up being pulled out of my regular duties, and I became, like, the gift wrapping guy. And so what was nice is no, I no longer had to run around everywhere. I had, like, my own little station, and, you know, for two weeks, I was just responsible. And, um, well, as it turns out, that when a desk opens, you know, think of an agent who's got, you know, like, 15 different trainees that he can, uh, he or she can pick from. It turns out that being known for being really having attention to detail and doing something well, it turns out that that served me really well. And so, um, so I always think when I, I, I tell an analyst, and they're just starting, I'm like: You might only have one or two companies. Like, think of that model the way, you know, I was thinking about gift wrapping. Watch over every cell, every line, the formatting, what font you use, right? Every line has to be, have a purpose, right? Because you might live in a world of 10,000 lines, but when you pitch the idea to Philippe, he's got 17 other things he's w- thinking about that moment.

    11. JAJack Altman1:02:16

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TLThomas Laffont1:02:17

        So your ability to crystallize that model in a way that's simple, that shows that you understand what you're talking about, and that you can do it in 50 lines, not 10,000, is an incredible skill, right? And so a lot of how we mentor our analysts are derived from kind of some of those principles.

    13. JAJack Altman1:02:35

        I love it. Thomas, this was really fun. Thanks a ton for making the time.

    14. TLThomas Laffont1:02:37

        My pleasure.

    15. JAJack Altman1:02:38

        I, I learned a ton.

    16. TLThomas Laffont1:02:39

        All right. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:02:43