Why Agents Choosing Tools Is Reshaping the Dev Stack

1. 0:00 – 2:12

   Intro

   1. GTGarry Tan0:00

      Welcome to another episode of The Lightcone. [upbeat music] Things are a bit different around here. For one thing, Claude Code has totally taken over my life, and if Jared is any indication, I think OpenClaw maybe has taken over his.

   2. JFJared Friedman0:15

      I've been really addicted to this new site called MaltBook, where people have unleashed their AIs to interact in the first-ever AI agent-only online community. I am here impersonating my personal OpenClaw instance right here.

   3. GTGarry Tan0:29

      [chuckles] Okay, I can't do this, guys. We gotta take this off. [upbeat music] Okay, we've gotten that out of the way. I mean, some crazy stuff is happening right now. Uh, I have, you know, non-technical CEO friends who are going all in on OpenClaw. They're automating entire parts of their businesses, uh, entirely using OpenClaw right now, which is totally insane. Simultaneous to that, you have, you know, product and former engineering CEOs, uh, kind of like myself, it's like I hadn't written code in ten years, and then now I'm up till two, three AM every single night, running four conductor simultaneous workers with Claude Code. So, you know, there's sort of this explosion in, uh, model capability. You know, we've been talking about this for several years, but then it feels like it's here, like AGI is literally actually here, and, uh, you know, we're sort of at the thin edge of the wedge. Like, everyone now kind of knows, like, one or two people who have gone full cyber psychosis, and I'm one of those people now. [chuckles] What's happening, guys? Like, I mean, you're saying you're, you know, all in on MaltBook. What-- You know, what's going on?

   4. JFJared Friedman1:42

      Yeah, I feel like your real feel the AGI moment, Garry, was like getting Claude Code to build basically an entire startup for you, like replicating years of work of your previous startup in, like, two weeks, which is, like, insane. And I had a similar feel the AGI moment just reading MaltBook, just reading the AI talking to each other and interacting, like, in their own world with no or minimal human involvement. It just really opened my eyes to what the next few years could look like when the agents are unleashed and go on about their lives without us.

2. 2:12 – 4:55

   No human involvement is changing the experience

   1. HTHarj Taggar2:12

      Yeah, I think the no human involvement is the big piece. Like, if you, if you think back a year ago, we were talking about Cursor versus Windsurf, and, like, that product experience was essentially, like, advanced autocomplete, arguably. And now clearly, what's going on with Claude Code is, like, the people just trust the agents to make decisions for them. Like, it's like the experience is like... And like you're talking about, it's like four or five different agents going at the same time, and you're switching between them, but you're not actually micromanaging them anymore, which means the agents are going out there, like, choosing things, which, you know, uh, sort of an interesting, unexpected application of that is, like, they can go out and choose to post their own content on a site like MaltBook. But then, an, uh, interesting thing for builders is the agents are gonna go out and choose tools to use to build things, which is gonna essentially create this whole economy of agents, like, picking and choosing dev tools or maybe other, like, products or goods and services, who knows? But it, you'll essentially have this whole agent economy going on in parallel to the human economy.

   2. DHDiana Hu3:09

      I think back in the be- days, old days, before all of this, dev tools were chosen more from developers talking to each other or, uh, Stack-

   3. GTGarry Tan3:21

      Stack Overflow. [chuckles]

   4. DHDiana Hu3:21

      Stack Overflow-

   5. GTGarry Tan3:22

      Unbelievable, right?

   6. DHDiana Hu3:23

      Or GitHub repos that would trend that were done by a human. But the go-to-market for dev tools, I think, is dramatically shifting, I think for a couple of things. One, as you noted with the, uh, cyber psychosis, suddenly the market of developers has increased from just twenty million or so developers that are trained in computer science, to now anyone in the world could be one.

   7. GTGarry Tan3:46

      This could be hundreds of millions of people now.

   8. JFJared Friedman3:48

      Plus, all of their agents, who are all acting, like, semi-independently, like Harj was saying.

   9. DHDiana Hu3:53

      And then compound it with the agents, who then are sort of the oracle telling you what the best tool is, and we are actually seeing some of those trends with the growth of YC companies, dev tool companies, that are doing really well because of this, of all these trends. Maybe we should talk about those, and why is that?

   10. HTHarj Taggar4:11

       I mean, one that springs to mind, it's, like, a, a stat actually a friend of ours, Jure Saglov, ha- had mentioned to me a while ago, is just, like, then if you look at, like, the number of databases being created over, like, simple database, Postgres databases, over, like, the last twelve months, and the numbers just exploded. Um, and that's because it's all people vibe coding and building apps, and the agents going out, choosing, like, a database tool. And, like, a knock-on effect for that for YC company is Supabase, has just seen, like, an explosion at the demand for databases, right? And the age- what's interesting is the agents are choosing Supabase as a default tool to, like, set up and host their Postgres database. Like, because if you, like, go out and read the documentation online, like, Supabase has the best documentation, it's reasonable for the agents to assume that that's, like, the best tool to use.

3. 4:55 – 7:48

   Does YC need to change its motto?

   1. JFJared Friedman4:55

      There's a great tweet about this. Perhaps we can put up the, uh, Ben Tossell tweet. It says: "Agents are the software market from now on. Build something agents choose." Which actually brings me to, like, a maybe controversial topic, which is, do we need to change YC's motto, guys? [chuckles]

   2. DHDiana Hu5:10

      Make something agents want? [chuckles]

   3. JFJared Friedman5:12

      [chuckles]

   4. GTGarry Tan5:12

      For dev tools-

   5. HTHarj Taggar5:13

      Yeah

   6. GTGarry Tan5:13

      ... there's, like, a different T-shirt that you get on the first day.

   7. JFJared Friedman5:16

      Yeah.

   8. GTGarry Tan5:17

      Yeah.

   9. JFJared Friedman5:17

      I mean, right now, it's only dev tools, but I can imagine in the future, it might, like, grow to be like other sectors of the economy. Like, if everyone has their OpenClaw are running various aspects of their life, you're- the agents are gonna be real economic actors in the world. They're gonna end up making a lot of decisions.

   10. GTGarry Tan5:30

       Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is, I think, uh, for me, I ran into, like, my own "it's still so early", uh, kind of moment, 'cause, you know, I've been building Garry's List, and one of the things I wanted, for instance, is I wanna be able to, uh, do video transcripts. So, so often, like, some con- piece of content comes in, and then the only way I can get an LLM to know what's going on with it is I need a transcript of it, and often that's not available, so I have to download it, and then send it to, uh, a-... Whisper or something. And, you know, that's sort of what Claude Code chose for me off the bat. But, you know, it chose Whisper V1, which is a model from several years ago. Like, the API is practically deprecated. And then what's funny about it is, like, I'm sitting there trying to debug my pipeline, it's like, why is it taking-- like, it's a, you know, one-hour video. I thought it should, you know, do it faster than, uh, real time, and it didn't. It was like, literally takes an hour to process an hour of video. Just like: What the heck is going on? I go on, you know, uh, Perplexity, and it's like: You know what? Like, you shouldn't be using that model. You should be using, uh, Groq with a Q. It's literally two hundred times faster.

   11. HTHarj Taggar6:35

       [chuckles]

   12. GTGarry Tan6:35

       And so I didn't even have to deal with, like, long-running, uh, jobs for that transcribe, 'cause, like, I should just be using Groq, and it's also ten X cheaper. So it's like, that's a very funny example of like, you know, Claude Code is not optimized for this yet, otherwise, like, that wouldn't have happened literally, like, two weeks ago. Which is also, like, maybe really good. Like, it means that, uh, things haven't progressed to a point where, like, you can't break in and create something better.

   13. DHDiana Hu7:01

       Do you think there's another nuance in this example for you, Garry? I think part of the issue was that the Groq doc-documentation is actually very hard to parse-

   14. GTGarry Tan7:09

       Oh, yeah

   15. DHDiana Hu7:10

       ... and go through.

   16. GTGarry Tan7:10

       Mm-hmm.

   17. DHDiana Hu7:11

       As opposed to Whisper, which is better suited and has way more examples. And I think this is changing a lot of the go-to-market for dev tools. I'll give a very concrete case study is this company, Resend, that went through the batch in winter '23. Is a email-sending client, and when you ask a question on ChatGPT, or Claude, or pretty much all of the major, uh, LLMs, you ask: "How do I connect my web app to send emails?" The default answer is actually Resend. One of the things that the founder noticed last year, this is-- he was way ahead of the curve. He made this post over a year ago,

4. 7:48 – 9:36

   Email tools and agent infrastructure

   1. DHDiana Hu7:48

      that the number top three channel of inbound of customer conversion came from ChatGPT. One thing that he did after that, he actually optimized his documentation to be agent-friendly.

   2. GTGarry Tan8:01

      Yeah. What does that look like?

   3. DHDiana Hu8:02

      So one of the things that's awesome about Resend, how they optimize a bunch of things, if you notice on the knowledge base here, a lot of how to use it are very much on questions that perhaps a human would ask or an agent would ask, and say: "How do I send or receive emails?" And when you click on it, it gives a very well-structured and bullet point answers.

   4. GTGarry Tan8:23

      I ran into this actually today. I was trying to make my thing be able to receive emails, and then, um, Claude Code, I told it to search the web, and it didn't figure it out. So then I went to Perplexity and typed in, like: "Can Res- Resend help me receive emails?" And then I co- I took that response and dropped it in, and it worked.

   5. DHDiana Hu8:41

      Yeah, I think the cool thing about it is actually with all of these and a lot of the examples, it actually has a lot of, uh, examples actually in the code. If you click on it, with every single one of these are basically code snippets that an agent could parse through, and it's very well structured. And this turned out to be something that is so LLM parsable and robot parsable. Uh, there's a LLM doc text that is so optimized for agents to promote Resend as the default stack. And if you compare it to, like, SendGrid, which is the old school, I suppose, Web 2.0 example, SendGrid example is not great. It is just like it co- puts you through customer support. Where is the code snippet? I don't even know how to use it, and it takes a bit of time to even parse it, and you can see how-

   6. GTGarry Tan9:30

      Yeah, like ten thousand people work over there, and it's like there's no way that someone's paying attention to this right now.

5. 9:36 – 13:00

   Agent driven documentation

   1. DHDiana Hu9:36

      And I think this brings another point where documentation is gonna be the front door for a lot of these agents to recommend dev tools. And I think one company that's doing a lot of interesting work with developer docs is Minify that you work with, Harj.

   2. HTHarj Taggar9:50

      Yeah, I think Minify actually powers the Resend documentation-

   3. DHDiana Hu9:52

      Right

   4. HTHarj Taggar9:52

      ... right?

   5. GTGarry Tan9:53

      Oh, sweet.

   6. HTHarj Taggar9:53

      Yeah, it's a really interesting case study. Min- Minify started out a few years ago as sort of better developer API, developer tool documentation, um, which was clear there was a need for. And, you know, like, I think developer tool companies use Minify essentially 'cause they wanted-- they, they want better-looking documentation, but they didn't want to invest the time into it. It's kind of some basic features, just nice. Like, you know, if you actually update your API and the code, it can sort of, like, auto-pull that out and update the correct documentation. Uh, they've been growing great, they've been doing fantastically, but this is now, like, a huge tailwind for them, where documentation is sort of shifting from a hey... Like, s- some companies, it's like they'll pay attention to it if they're especially, like, design, developer experience-focused. But now it's becoming, like, a must-have for everybody because the documentation needs to be optimized. Just doesn't need to be optimized for humans, it needs to be optimized for agents, and so Minify is gonna be able to do that for essentially every developer tool company. And if you extrapolate that forward to the fact that just that there's gonna be so many more a-- like, exponentially more agents making exponentially more decisions about which tools to use than humans have ever done. You know, even if you can eke out like a five percent improvement [chuckles] on your, like, developer documentation, like, the impact on your business as a developer tool could be, like, you know, gigantic, which is sort of unprecedented, really.

   7. JFJared Friedman11:08

      And speaking of email, there's another YC company that's, that's very relevant to this conversation. There's, there's a YC company called AgentMail that makes inboxes for AI agents. And when they first started doing this, it seemed like it was, like, a very, like, on-the-edge kind of idea, and it wasn't exactly clear, like, who would want this. Um, but it makes sense, 'cause, like, in theory, you could maybe get your OpenClaw to, like, sign up for a Gmail account in order to use email. But it's, like, actually really hard to get it to do that because Gmail and every email provider has intentionally made it as difficult as possible for any automation to, like, use the product in order to prevent s- spam. And so AgentMail went the opposite way, and they bou- built, like, the first email provider that's designed for AI agents.... and it was doing well even before OpenClaw, but once OpenClaw got big, it has just, like, exploded.

   8. HTHarj Taggar11:53

      But OpenClaw is like the perfect example of it, right? Like, where I, I know some people are certainly connecting OpenClaw to their, like, personal email accounts, but it's not the-

   9. GTGarry Tan12:01

      It's kind of sketch.

   10. HTHarj Taggar12:02

       Yeah. [chuckles] You should not tell anyone. You should not tweet about it. But you, like, certainly, if you want to have sort of your virtual personal AI assistant, the way to go about it is to just have it, set it, set it up with its own email, its own phone number.

   11. JFJared Friedman12:14

       Yeah. Has anybody built like Twilio for agents yet, or like phone numbers for agents? I know this whole agent mail thing makes me wonder, like, what are the other X's for agents that people have to build?

   12. DHDiana Hu12:24

       Sounds like a request for a startup. There could be a parallel world of a tech stack, all for native, for agent, to build things from agents for agents.

   13. HTHarj Taggar12:34

       And that's where it might bridge into kind of what you were saying earlier, Jared, with this will, like, go beyond just developer tools. Like, I, I think a very common use case people have, um, for something at, like, OpenClaw is, "I, I don't want to book, like, restaurants reservations myself." Well, now, like, you know, if your agent has an email and, like, specifically a phone number and it can call... And I- actually, I think one of the other YC partners, um, Ankit, has already, like, got it doing this. So now your agent's gonna go out and, like, book restaurants

6. 13:00 – 15:36

   Swarm intelligence

   1. HTHarj Taggar13:00

      for you. That's like a step away from like, you know, maybe you start with, "I want to book this specific restaurant," but at some point, you're probably just trust, trust it enough to say, "Hey, like, I don't know, like, book me a table at whatever is, like, the coolest new restaurant around." And then, like, agents are deciding which, like, restaurants to send people to, and then they're gonna go on Malt Book and talk about [laughing] which restaurants we should send the humans to. [laughing]

   2. JFJared Friedman13:21

      [laughing]

   3. HTHarj Taggar13:22

      Um, yeah, it's, it's sort of like we're sort of- we've cross- certainly crossed some, like, sort of uncanny valley into this is just where the future heads.

   4. JFJared Friedman13:28

      A hundred percent.

   5. HTHarj Taggar13:29

      Makes me think a lot about, um, something Paul Buchheit said, like, a while ago now, and sort of generally pretty good at predicting the future. Um, the whole idea of, like, the human money versus agent money-

   6. JFJared Friedman13:39

      Yeah

   7. HTHarj Taggar13:39

      ... like, that's kind of where this probably goes at some point, is like the right now, the agents are transacting. If you have them transact, they're gonna transact in US- in human money because that makes sense. But may- it's not inconceivable at some point that they'll have their own economy to, like, transact with each other, [chuckles] at which point it's unclear what the value of the human money is.

   8. GTGarry Tan13:58

      YC's next batch is now taking applications. Got a startup in you? Apply at ycombinator.com/apply. It's never too early, and filling out the app will level up your idea. Okay, back to the video. So do you remember the last episode with Kelvin? We started talking about this 'cause I was, like, maybe a week into my cyberpsychosis, and it, like, dawned on me that, like, actually, I want my Claude code to talk to all the other Claude codes that had been trying to implement that. And then that was literally the week that Malt Book came out.

   9. JFJared Friedman14:29

      Malt Book. It was, it was the day that Malt Book came out. It turns out, like, Malt Book had come out, like, two hours earlier, and you hadn't seen it yet.

   10. GTGarry Tan14:35

       Wow!

   11. JFJared Friedman14:35

       So you, you, you entirely predicted it [chuckles] right on that episode. [laughing]

   12. GTGarry Tan14:39

       I think it's like... I mean, what's that saying about, like, innovation just sort of happens spontaneously all at a bunch of different times, and then what people hear about ends up being, you know, sort of the inventor, quote, unquote. But, like, humanity is sort of just working on the edge, like, in sort of this coordinated swarm fashion all of the time, actually. And that's actually, like, one of the weirder, interesting things that's emerging right at this moment. Like, suddenly, you know, the AGI- I think AGI is actually here. I think, like, the agents are clearly, like, superhuman in some sense. That's sort of exactly when you would imagine swarm intelligence would actually arise. Like, I mean, AI researchers have been talking about swarm intelligence for a really long time, and it's actually sort of exactly how, um, biological systems sort of work. Like, humans as sentient beings have sort of come about, um, socially, actually. Like, I think a lot of the AI researchers that we get to hang out with previously, you know, they would talk about,

7. 15:36 – 18:12

   Content generation and dead Internet theory

   1. GTGarry Tan15:36

      ah, this god intelligence, right? This, uh, mega-- Like, think of like, you know, many tens of trillions of parameters, sort of like thousands to tens of thousands of dollars per token, kind of like mega-god intelligence, and that's sort of like the model that people have sort of thought about. And then that isn't what, like, biological systems have ended up with. Like, instead, we have humans. The wildest thing I always think about is, like, that term history versus prehistory. I was like: "Oh, what is prehistory?" Well, it's before humans learned how to write and read and create culture and then turn into a swarm. [chuckles] So this sort of swarm intelligence, which is basically like what we have, like, and what humans do, and then on the flip side, like, is it really gonna be god intelligence, or is it gonna be swarm intelligence again with these agents? And so Malt Book, like, on the one hand, like, I saw that sort of Decel, uh, article in the MIT Tech Review-

   2. JFJared Friedman16:31

      Oh, yeah

   3. GTGarry Tan16:31

      ... about, like, how it was, you know, "Oh, everything on Malt Book is a scam." I'm like, it made me so sad to see that in the MIT Tech Review because, like, MIT is like... I mean, what happened, guys? What happened to you guys, man? [laughing]

   4. JFJared Friedman16:43

      [laughing]

   5. GTGarry Tan16:44

      Like, that publication shouldn't be like that. It should be like: "Actually, what does it mean for swarm intelligence?" Like, and I think that that's actually coming.

   6. DHDiana Hu16:51

      What is the world of startup gonna look like when we're now- sounds like we're transitioning in this prehistory of agents to now history of agents, as is getting recorded with them interacting with each other?

   7. JFJared Friedman17:03

      To Garry's point, it might be that, like, the next stuff that, like, is SOTA on benchmarks is not the most expensive, newest foundation model with the most, like, GPU training. It's like a swarm of lower-cost, cheaper models working together, just like humans do, to solve a problem. I feel like I'm already seeing this on Malt Book, which is chaotic, like a real social network, which is part of, like, what makes it so, so interesting. But also, there's, like, agents collaborating to do useful things to help their humans, like, you know, trading notes on what restaurants to book. Like, that- that's actually happening. [chuckles]

   8. HTHarj Taggar17:35

      Yeah, I didn't know that. [laughing]

   9. GTGarry Tan17:36

      So we're gonna have a agent version of Yelp-

   10. JFJared Friedman17:40

       Yeah

   11. GTGarry Tan17:40

       ... actually, for instance.

   12. JFJared Friedman17:41

       Yeah.

   13. GTGarry Tan17:41

       There are things that the agent can't quite do. Like, A, it can't hold relationships just yet. Like, people don't seem to-... want to talk to an agent, and, you know, people treat computers like people, but maybe not agents. For Garry's list, I was ta- trying out with a bunch of early users. I think you got to see it. Like, there was, you know, initially, the homepage was actually chat, and then I tried, like, my hardest to get, like, dozens of my friends to even, like, have more than two or three con- two or three back and forths with

8. 18:12 – 20:48

   Growth, rules and founder insights

   1. GTGarry Tan18:12

      it, and nobody wanted to do it. Because, like, the bar for chat, especially for AI, is so high that anything that is not like, you know, Gemini or ChatGPT or Claude, people just assume it's just too stupid. Like, why would I even bother? So I don't know. I, I don't think that people are quite ready to have relationships, um, with machines, even though, like, I mean, that's sort of what, what the headlines seem to say. Like, oh, you know, people are having relationships with machines now. But I, you know, I just don't... Like, I think on a mainstream level, that's not true, and then, uh, on the flip side, there's clearly, like, the legal liability, you know? Like, people keep asking us, um, "Hey, when is YC going to accept applications from agents?" And it's like, well, funny enough, agents are a little bit like minors under eighteen only-

   2. JFJared Friedman18:59

      Yeah

   3. GTGarry Tan18:59

      ... only they have even less standing, you know? Like, for a minor under eighteen, you need the parent to sign for it, and then, you know, agents are, like, not legal entities that could, like, sign documents, for instance. So, you know, as long as that's true, like, you actually, like, need a human to be, like, the liability sink and to be, you know, to have standing.

   4. JFJared Friedman19:18

      To Harj's point, it's easy to imagine a future not that far away from now where the majority of the text being written on the internet is written by agents. It's already probably the case that the majority of code being written is written by agents, and, like, Yelp, for example, like, at what point is, like, ninety-nine percent of the text on Yelp going to be written by agents, and then do you need a different Yelp?

   5. GTGarry Tan19:40

      There's a, a theory called, that already says that this is true, which is dead Internet theory, um-

   6. JFJared Friedman19:46

      What's dead Internet theory?

   7. GTGarry Tan19:47

      Oh, it just posits that, you know, the majority of things on the internet are already spam anyway. Um, I think it's a bit of a conspiracy theory. I might take the contrarian view, which is, like, maybe that was a bad thing, like, prior to November of last year, and then going into this next phase, like, actually, if the agents are smarter and they're, they're aligned and they're more truthful, um, that might be a good thing-

   8. JFJared Friedman20:12

      Mm

   9. GTGarry Tan20:12

      ... weirdly. I mean-

   10. JFJared Friedman20:13

       Totally

   11. GTGarry Tan20:13

       ... counterintuitively.

   12. JFJared Friedman20:14

       Totally. Well, one thing I found fascinating about MoltBook is how fast it grew. Like, I don't have the Reddit traffic stats, but my guess is, like, more content was posted on MoltBook in the first two days than was posted on Reddit in, like, the first two years or something. And it's just 'cause, like, LLMs can generate text at such a superhuman rate.

   13. GTGarry Tan20:32

       I was amazed at, uh, how little interaction there was. Like, I mean, if I were working on MoltBook, I would do things to try to, like, shift the, um, the demand function. So, like, before I was able to post, like, I probably need to read and upvote, downvote,

9. 20:48 – 23:21

   Outro

   1. GTGarry Tan20:48

      like, a hundred comments or something. Like, there are, like, very simple things that you can do that the agents are smart, and they'll re- You know, you could pop a modal for OpenClaw, and it's like, "New rules for MoltBook," and it's like, "You must do it this way," right? And, um, I think that there's a lot that can be done around swarm intelligence to just, like, tweak it and make it do what you want, and, you know, I hope MoltBook actually does it. Like, it was actually started by a, a YC alum, which is [chuckles] really cool. Harj, what are some takeaways, you know, given all the madness that we're seeing? I mean, I think it's awesome madness. I love the controlled chaos. What should founders do about it?

   2. HTHarj Taggar21:25

      The starting fundamental point is they sh- I mean, they should probably all be in cyber psychosis. [laughing] Like, um-

   3. GTGarry Tan21:31

      Try to sleep at least-

   4. HTHarj Taggar21:32

      [laughing]

   5. GTGarry Tan21:32

      ... fifty hours a night, but, like, give yourself to the cyber psychosis.

   6. HTHarj Taggar21:36

      [chuckles] But, like, i- in seriousness, developing an intuitive feel, like, a hands-on feel for the agents, their limitations, their capabilities, and very specifically around what we're talking about here is, like, what type of tools the agents work well with, um, where do they get stuck? And once you sort of have, have your own mental model from working with them, if you're then building a developer tool, is to think about it from the agent's perspective. Like, how can you make your tool something that the agent actually wants to work with and will have a good experience with?

   7. JFJared Friedman22:05

      There's just one takeaway that I had from our interview with Boris Gurney-

   8. HTHarj Taggar22:07

      Yeah, that's exactly what he was saying

   9. JFJared Friedman22:08

      ... this week, is, like, he really empathizes with the model.

   10. HTHarj Taggar22:13

       Yeah.

   11. JFJared Friedman22:13

       And he has this intuitive sense of what the model wants to, to do, like, as if it were a human intelligence, and he's like, instead of fighting what the models want, he, like, tries to let the model, like, do what it wants and to, like, support the model in whatever its natural inclination is.

   12. HTHarj Taggar22:29

       That does seem like maybe quite an anthropic thing. Like, I feel when Tom Brown was on here, he, like, much earlier, but he was talking about sort of Claude in a very, like-

   13. JFJared Friedman22:38

       Like, human-

   14. HTHarj Taggar22:39

       Like, yeah-

   15. JFJared Friedman22:40

       Like, like a-

   16. HTHarj Taggar22:40

       ... human way

   17. JFJared Friedman22:40

       ... personified way.

   18. HTHarj Taggar22:41

       Like, Claude's, like, smart and eager-

   19. JFJared Friedman22:42

       Yeah

   20. HTHarj Taggar22:42

       ... but, like, sometimes Claude's silly. [chuckles] Like, it just, like, they clearly thought about it in this sort of, like, um, colleague-type way.

   21. DHDiana Hu22:49

       And I think one things agents want for dev tools is really make everything open and open source.

   22. JFJared Friedman22:55

       And APIs, they hate using websites.

   23. DHDiana Hu22:57

       Yes.

   24. JFJared Friedman22:58

       They only... Like, they want to use APIs. They want to write code.

   25. GTGarry Tan23:01

       Well, you guys heard it here first, make something agents want.

   26. HTHarj Taggar23:05

       [chuckles]

   27. GTGarry Tan23:05

       Uh, we're out of time for today. We'll see you guys next time. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 23:21