From Zapier for Devs to Powering 90% AI Agents

1. 0:00 – 0:55

   What Trigger.dev does

   1. NDNicolas Dessaigne0:00

      [upbeat music] I'm here with Matt and Eric from Trigger.dev, who recently announced their Series A from Standard Capital. And today we're gonna spend a bit of time talking about their time in YC, their product, and where they think software is headed. Hi, guys. Welcome.

   2. MAMatt0:19

      Hey, good to see you. [laughs]

   3. EREric0:20

      Thanks for having us.

   4. NDNicolas Dessaigne0:21

      Guys, lots to talk about, but before we get into any of that, maybe just start by describing what Trigger.dev is.

   5. MAMatt0:27

      Yeah. So it's a way to basically add AI agents to your, your product. Um, so you use our SDK, and you create agents, and you add them to your existing product. Um, and we will, like, execute them for you and run them reliably.

   6. NDNicolas Dessaigne0:42

      That makes a lot of sense, but it, it's fairly different from what I remember you pitching when you joined YC in 2023. Uh, maybe let's, let's start by just talking about the first versions of that idea when you applied to YC.

2. 0:55 – 4:14

   Zapier for developers (v1)

   1. MAMatt0:55

      Yeah. So we, we actually pivoted pre-YC, but we, we launched the first version of Trigger.dev, I think on, like, February the 1st, so, like, quite early in the batch. Um, and it was an async background jobs framework. So if you wanna run work in the background, um, we would, like, do that for you.

   2. EREric1:11

      Although we pitched it as Zapier for developers, and it was sort of the, the meme at the time was, like, there was three or four different things that were Zapier for developers, and we were sort of the first one to, like, capture that. But, um, yeah, we had a big, uh, Hacker News launch that went really well.

   3. NDNicolas Dessaigne1:25

      I remember that.

   4. EREric1:26

      Yeah.

   5. MAMatt1:26

      Yeah.

   6. NDNicolas Dessaigne1:26

      Yes. And, uh, you guys came in with the Zapier for developers.

   7. MAMatt1:31

      Mm.

   8. NDNicolas Dessaigne1:32

      Uh, you got into YC. I remember being, uh, really impressed with your sense of design. Like, it was pretty clear looking at your website, uh, that you were... A, you had a really good sense of what developers would get excited about, which is, I think, why you did so well on Hacker News.

   9. MAMatt1:46

      Mm.

   10. NDNicolas Dessaigne1:46

       But everything just looked, uh, like it was done with care.

   11. MAMatt1:50

       Mm.

   12. NDNicolas Dessaigne1:51

       Uh, w- y- where did that come from?

   13. MAMatt1:54

       That's a good question. I mean, uh, we... there are actually four co-founders, um, and Dan and James are, like, really good at UX and design. Um-

   14. EREric2:01

       It might be the Britishness, maybe. I don't know.

   15. MAMatt2:03

       [laughs]

   16. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:03

       [laughs]

   17. MAMatt2:04

       Could be. Could be.

   18. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:04

       The Jony Ive kind of thing?

   19. EREric2:05

       Yeah.

   20. MAMatt2:06

       [laughs]

   21. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:07

       [laughs]

   22. EREric2:08

       Jony Ive.

   23. MAMatt2:08

       Yeah, I guess we really value design. We think the best developer tools actually care about design. And when we say design, I'm not talking just visual design. I also think that, like, developer experience is actually about design, um, like, designing the experience so that it's easy to succeed.

   24. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:22

       Hm.

   25. MAMatt2:23

       Um, and we spend... Probably the hardest conversations we have, um, around the product are, like, how to design this, like, specific SDK function and make it so dev- it's very, very hard for developers to, like, fail when they use it.

   26. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:36

       Hm.

   27. MAMatt2:37

       Um, so we're very, very careful about that. Um-

   28. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:40

       I remember during the batch how much time you spent specifically on just, just the landing page and trying to, trying to communicate what Trigger did. You had this, uh, you had this, like, code snippet on the landing page.

   29. MAMatt2:56

       [laughs]

   30. NDNicolas Dessaigne2:56

       It was the first thing you saw when, when you open, when you opened it up, and you spent a long time trying to, I, I think, highlight specific sections, and, um, that was, that was the hardest I had seen anybody think about the first five seconds that a developer has, uh, learning about your tool.
3. 4:14 – 6:36

   The first pivot

   1. MAMatt4:14

      Yeah. So I think the first use cases, because we were kind of positioned as this, like, Zapier for developer things, were kind of what I would call back office, um, things. So things like internal teams were building tools using us. Um, they were, like, replacing what Zapier is good for.

   2. NDNicolas Dessaigne4:28

      Hm.

   3. MAMatt4:29

      Um, but we pretty quickly realized that the best use cases were where people were actually, like, baking us into their products.

   4. NDNicolas Dessaigne4:36

      Hm.

   5. MAMatt4:37

      Um, and so version two of, uh, Trigger, which we released, like, a couple of month- a few months after the batch, um, was more focused on that. So it was more about adding, uh, async tasks to your existing product. So less back office use case, more embedded in your product.

   6. NDNicolas Dessaigne4:53

      So what's an example of, of kind of the, the back office background task you had in mind when you designed the first version, and, and, and what's an example of a baking this straight into the product-

   7. MAMatt5:05

      Yeah

   8. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:05

      ... use case?

   9. MAMatt5:06

      So back office stuff would be, like, you're automating stuff with... For, for developers for, like, automating GitHub, um, maybe doing-

   10. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:13

       Ah

   11. MAMatt5:13

       ... some marketing use cases. So it's like the, it's the-

   12. EREric5:18

       Sales.

   13. MAMatt5:19

       Yeah. It's like biz ops and sales and marketing, the stuff that, like, a lot of people use Zapier for, um, and, like, NAN and things like that. And then baking into your product, it's more that you, um, you are actually executing code that's part of your product. So rather-

   14. EREric5:33

       Like doing something for your users. You know, your user has done something, and now you wanna do something sort of in the background asynchronously, like process a document or, um-

   15. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:41

       Oh, interesting

   16. EREric5:42

       ... you know, encode a video-

   17. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:42

       Interesting

   18. EREric5:42

       ... or do something like that. It's like, so it's, it's in the hot path of your, like, app that provides value directly to your users-

   19. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:50

       Sure

   20. EREric5:50

       ... not providing value to your team.

   21. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:53

       Fair enough.

   22. EREric5:53

       Yeah.

   23. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:54

       You, you've basically given developers a really simple way to spin up a background process and-

   24. EREric5:58

       Yeah

   25. NDNicolas Dessaigne5:58

       ... get something done.

   26. EREric5:59

       Yeah, and run it through queues and make sure, you know, things are reliable and retry and idempotent and all that sort of thing. Yeah.

   27. NDNicolas Dessaigne6:06

       That makes, that makes a lot of sense.

   28. MAMatt6:08

       And I think because there, there was this shift to serverless, um, over the previous, like, 10 years, um, that stuff became a lot harderUm, like it's really good at doing short-lived like request response, um, stuff, but not very good for long-running tasks. And so it kind of left like a big gap. Um, and that's what we were filling basically.

   29. NDNicolas Dessaigne6:31

       How well was this adopted, right?

   30. MAMatt6:33

       [laughs]
4. 6:36 – 10:43

   Finding product-market fit

   1. MAMatt6:36

      It w- it did okay.

   2. EREric6:36

      It, it was okay.

   3. MAMatt6:37

      It did okay.

   4. NDNicolas Dessaigne6:38

      Okay.

   5. MAMatt6:38

      But it definitely wasn't like product market fit. Um-

   6. NDNicolas Dessaigne6:40

      Fair enough

   7. MAMatt6:41

      ... and so, and I think partly it's because it just wasn't solving the problem that well.

   8. NDNicolas Dessaigne6:46

      Huh.

   9. MAMatt6:46

      Like we f- there was definitely like demand-

   10. NDNicolas Dessaigne6:49

       Mm

   11. MAMatt6:49

       ... but we, so I think the market was there, but the product didn't really match. And I think two really important things changed. Uh, one was that, uh, AI started to take off. Um, and it just so happens that async tasks are, background async tasks are very, very useful for AI. And then the other thing is that we realized that our solution wasn't very good, and it wasn't very good because it involved you writing still quite messy code.

   12. NDNicolas Dessaigne7:16

       Mm.

   13. MAMatt7:16

       Um, and we decided to actually start executing code, um, and that was version three of the product, which we released in, uh, June 2024.

   14. EREric7:27

       Yeah, summer '24.

   15. MAMatt7:28

       Um, and that's when stuff started to really take off.

   16. NDNicolas Dessaigne7:30

       So it sounds like version two, you gave developers an SDK, but they were still executing these background jobs on their infrastructure.

   17. MAMatt7:41

       Yeah.

   18. NDNicolas Dessaigne7:41

       And in version three you offloaded the e- the execution entirely to your infrastructure.

   19. MAMatt7:47

       Yeah.

   20. EREric7:47

       Yeah. We actually did a poll when we were doing version two, and I asked, you know, our customers like, "Where is the code executing it? Are we executing it or are you executing it?" I think 60% thought we were executing it, [laughs] so like they already thought we were doing it.

   21. NDNicolas Dessaigne8:01

       [laughs]

   22. EREric8:02

       Yeah. So we were like, "Maybe we should do it." [laughs]

   23. MAMatt8:06

       [laughs]

   24. NDNicolas Dessaigne8:07

       Uh, and so, and so I was y- I was going to ask if you had trouble kind of convincing developers to trust you to handle this execution, but what-

   25. MAMatt8:13

       Yeah

   26. NDNicolas Dessaigne8:13

       ... it sounds like is they already thought you were doing it. [laughs]

   27. EREric8:15

       There, there was definitely like a sub-

   28. MAMatt8:16

       We thought we would

   29. EREric8:17

       ... there was a subset of people-

   30. MAMatt8:18

       Yes
5. 10:43 – 18:00

   Real customer use cases

   1. MAMatt10:43

      Makes sense

   2. EREric10:43

      ... basically.

   3. NDNicolas Dessaigne10:43

      Interesting. So, so, ma- and maybe can you give us an example here just again to make this concrete, like what was-

   4. MAMatt10:49

      Yeah

   5. NDNicolas Dessaigne10:49

      ... what were some of these early use cases, uh, that, that your, your customers were, were sort of pulling your product towards?

   6. MAMatt10:56

      Yeah. So, so there's a company called icon.com, and they're basically replacing video ad companies.

   7. NDNicolas Dessaigne11:01

      Mm.

   8. MAMatt11:02

      So you go on and you upload some assets of your product, and then you describe what you want your video ads to be like.

   9. NDNicolas Dessaigne11:08

      Mm.

   10. MAMatt11:09

       And then they use Trigger to like process the assets, so classify them, and then also just like generate videos.

   11. NDNicolas Dessaigne11:16

       Mm.

   12. MAMatt11:16

       Um, and you get like hundreds of adverts spat out, and then you can give feedback on those adverts, and eventually you post them to TikTok and Instagram. Um, so that's like a good example of how to use Trigger.

   13. NDNicolas Dessaigne11:27

       And, and in that, in that f- workflow, the end user uploads all of these assets, and then Icon hands the job to Trigger.

   14. MAMatt11:39

       Mm-hmm.

   15. NDNicolas Dessaigne11:39

       Trigger does this sort of long-running workflow of processing all of the things they've uploaded, then generating new assets.

   16. MAMatt11:48

       Mm-hmm.

   17. NDNicolas Dessaigne11:48

       Uh, and then, you know, you send a like, "Hey, we're done," and it, you hand it back to, to, to Icon?

   18. MAMatt11:53

       Yeah. In, in real time you can see all the assets being processed, but then the, that's kind of, there's kind of two p- in fact, we talk about this a lot.

   19. EREric12:00

       Yeah.

   20. MAMatt12:00

       There's kind of two parts to building successful agents. There's the like context that you need.

   21. NDNicolas Dessaigne12:05

       Yes.

   22. MAMatt12:06

       And then there's the actual, like the moment where you're doing something with that context. And so this is a perfect example, because in the case of Icon, the context is like all of the assets.

   23. NDNicolas Dessaigne12:15

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MAMatt12:15

       Um, and then the actual generation phase is where the user describes what kind of advert they want to make.Um, and it pulls the correct context, and then it generates new data, like maybe it generates AI actors, um, for their video. Um, and it, in r- in both cases, you want real-time feedback.

   25. NDNicolas Dessaigne12:36

       Uh, so it, it sounds like Trigger's actually being used to kind of do the agent loop here, where the users, once, once the context has been uploaded, the user's able to say, "No, I want, you know, a video ad that does X," or, "I, you know, I'd like one that looks like this."

   26. MAMatt12:48

       Yeah, and human in the loop, by the way, is like a critical part of that.

   27. NDNicolas Dessaigne12:51

       Interesting.

   28. MAMatt12:51

       Um, so you have this thing running, and then it can pause and ask for feedback.

   29. NDNicolas Dessaigne12:57

       Yes.

   30. MAMatt12:57

       Um, it could be from a human, it could be from another agent.
6. 18:00 – 23:14

   Open source as agent marketing

   1. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:00

      Ah.

   2. EREric18:00

      Right?

   3. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:00

      Okay.

   4. EREric18:00

      Whereas before we were seeing a lot of people using us very poorly.

   5. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:03

      Mm.

   6. EREric18:03

      And a l- we have done some, a lot of work as well in the last six months, so maybe part of it is that to basically be more like LLM friendly.

   7. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:11

      Yeah.

   8. EREric18:11

      We, you know, built a MCP server. All, all of our docs, like, we've like kind of fleshed them out better for agents and-

   9. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:18

      Skills

   10. EREric18:19

       ... and skills and like we've done all those things. So that's probably part of it. But I think just because the, also the agents, the coding agents are getting much better-

   11. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:25

       Mm

   12. EREric18:25

       ... that they're able to use us better. And so they're, our users, the vibe coders are running into less issues.

   13. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:31

       Got it.

   14. EREric18:31

       So they're actually doing better now.

   15. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:32

       So when you say the bifurcation has, has gone away-

   16. EREric18:34

       Yeah

   17. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:34

       ... you don't mean that they've all dropped off and stuff?

   18. EREric18:36

       No, no, they're still there.

   19. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:37

       What you mean is like they're, you're, you're less able to distinguish between-

   20. EREric18:40

       Yeah, yeah

   21. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:40

       ... the, like, serious devs versus-

   22. EREric18:42

       Yeah

   23. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:42

       ... the vibe coders.

   24. EREric18:42

       Yeah, because we could tell before.

   25. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:44

       Hm.

   26. EREric18:44

       It was very obvious.

   27. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:45

       Hm.

   28. MAMatt18:45

       Yeah, the support. There were like two types of support-

   29. NDNicolas Dessaigne18:48

       Yes

   30. MAMatt18:48

       ... that we would [laughs] have. There'd be people who clearly had never written software before. Um, and especially when this first started happening, they were struggling because the product was definitely not built for them.
7. 23:14 – 27:41

   Hiring after Opus 4.5

   1. NDNicolas Dessaigne23:14

      the best kind of feedback loop is-

   2. EREric23:15

      Yeah

   3. NDNicolas Dessaigne23:15

      ... uh, to be totally honest. And I, and I guess, like, there's this really virtuous cycle where, uh, the more you use the product, uh, the better pr- the product becomes, and the easier it is to automate a bunch of work within your own company.

   4. EREric23:27

      Yeah.

   5. NDNicolas Dessaigne23:27

      Um, maybe let's talk a little bit about that. How have you thought about hiring in this world?

   6. MAMatt23:32

      Yeah. So, so we, we, uh, raised our Series A, like, last, like, November time. Um, and you know, our hiring plan has materially changed since then. Um, we're definitely not going to be hiring as many engineers as we were going to. As quickly-

   7. NDNicolas Dessaigne23:50

      Oh, meaning in November you had planned to hire a lot of engineers, and at this, at this moment, which is, is February-

   8. MAMatt23:56

      Yeah

   9. NDNicolas Dessaigne23:56

      ... early February 2026-

   10. EREric23:57

       Post Opus 4 point post.

   11. MAMatt23:58

       Yeah.

   12. NDNicolas Dessaigne23:58

       Yes.

   13. MAMatt23:59

       Yeah. Basically, with the release of-Uh, better, like the better planning tools and Opus 4.5

   14. EREric24:05

       And Claude code improvements

   15. MAMatt24:06

       Yeah

   16. EREric24:07

       Yeah

   17. MAMatt24:07

       Like our productivity per engineer is, I don't know, 5X-

   18. EREric24:10

       Mm

   19. MAMatt24:11

       ... 10X what it was before. Um, and so we have hired people, um, and we will hire some more people, but definitely much less aggressively than we were going to.

   20. NDNicolas Dessaigne24:22

       What have you done in order to make it easier for the team to work with Cl- like, you've been working on this product for two and a half years, uh, you know, and this is not a, this is no longer a greenfield project.

   21. MAMatt24:34

       Mm.

   22. NDNicolas Dessaigne24:34

       I'm assuming you have like a, a reasonably large code base now that is fairly hairy. How, what have you done to make it easier for the engineers on your team and yourselves to work with coding agents in that code base?

   23. EREric24:46

       Um, to be honest, you don't have to do that much anymore. [laughs]

   24. NDNicolas Dessaigne24:51

       [laughs]

   25. EREric24:51

       Like it's sort of the, you know, the, they're so good.

   26. NDNicolas Dessaigne24:54

       Yeah.

   27. EREric24:54

       The agents are so good, and we, the, you, i- it will, it will figure it out by itself. I mean, obviously we do the obvious stuff, right? Like we build, you know, we have all the Claude MD and Agents MD files and all, all that sort of thing, and we've, we've, um, developed our own like internal sort of tools and skills-

   28. NDNicolas Dessaigne25:11

       Mm

   29. EREric25:11

       ... and things like that that give people like re- really, you know, stuff that we commonly do, and stuff that's like very specific about our repo and all that. But it's just, yeah, y- you kind of like, you- we almost were like lazy to the point of like letting the [laughs] models like catch up, and now, you know, we don't have, there's not a bunch of stuff we have to do to get [laughs] to be good. It's just already good.

   30. NDNicolas Dessaigne25:31

       Fair enough.
8. 27:41 – 31:17

   Shipping quality code with agents

   1. MAMatt27:41

      crazy.

   2. NDNicolas Dessaigne27:41

      A lot of the criticism around, uh, uh, the use of AI coding agents in, in large code bases is that they t- they just tend to produce slop. Like unwieldy, hard to maintain code and, and maybe unwieldy product experiences too. And you guys strike me as, as founders who more than most care about th- the really small details of how your product looks and feels. How do you and your, your engineers use coding agents to produce such high quality software? Have you had to think about that?

   3. EREric28:10

      Mm.

   4. MAMatt28:10

      Yeah, definitely. I think there's a lot of aspects to that. One is, um, I think you still need like good components. Um, if we're talking about like the front end side of things-

   5. NDNicolas Dessaigne28:19

      Okay

   6. MAMatt28:19

      ... I still think you need like high quality components. You don't want AI to create like the component from scratch each time.

   7. NDNicolas Dessaigne28:24

      Hmm.

   8. MAMatt28:25

      Um, so like we have a really strong design system, um, that we use, and we obviously adapt it over time. Um, I think our bottleneck right now is actually more on the review side. Like we can generate a ton of code-

   9. NDNicolas Dessaigne28:37

      Yes

   10. MAMatt28:37

       ... um, but the quality control and review, and that review is both like reviewing whether the code is good and then like kind of de-slopping it, um, and using AI to do that, but also, um, like UX.

   11. NDNicolas Dessaigne28:52

       Yeah. And it, so do you have a process for this? Is it, is it just you, you know, the founders kind of going through everything with a fine-tooth comb? Have you built a pi- a pipeline to try and, and make that easier?

   12. MAMatt29:04

       We use, we've been like evolving this a lot. We use good code review tools.

   13. EREric29:08

       Yeah.

   14. MAMatt29:08

       Um-

   15. EREric29:08

       With Dev- with the new Devon, uh, code review is very good for this.

   16. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:11

       Okay.

   17. EREric29:12

       Um, and we kind of combine a few different ones. Uh, it depends on what you're doing, like which kind of, um, like problems you would run into with the, the, like using the code agents. I think one of the mistakes you might make by like using coding agents is just viewing them as something that would, uh, write your code.

   18. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:30

       Mm-hmm.

   19. EREric29:31

       But what you can use them for is like a bunch of stuff around writing your code.

   20. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:35

       Yeah.

   21. EREric29:35

       So like maybe, uh, oh, you might think of like, oh, I wanna like start using this other thing. We'll benchmark it against this per- the thing we're using now, right? Uh, see how it uses the CPU. Like is it more efficient, less efficient?

   22. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:49

       Mm.

   23. EREric29:49

       Like that's a lot of work-

   24. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:50

       Hmm

   25. EREric29:50

       ... usually.

   26. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:51

       Yes.

   27. EREric29:51

       But like while you can do that with AI within a few minutes.

   28. NDNicolas Dessaigne29:54

       Yes.

   29. EREric29:54

       And now you've, you've now increased your knowledge about like what is a good thing to include in your code or not.And you would probably wouldn't have done that before. You might have just like YOLO'd it and just been like, "I, well, hopefully it'll work better," right? And we have like our prod sort of observability stuff, and it'll tell us, right? But now it's like, well, I can move a lot of that analysis earlier because it won't take me a week to write the benchmark.

   30. NDNicolas Dessaigne30:16

       Yes.
9. 31:17 – 33:52

   Advice for new founders

   1. EREric31:17

      we can't share him.

   2. MAMatt31:17

      Fair enough.

   3. EREric31:18

      [laughs]

   4. MAMatt31:19

      Well, there's your moat. [laughs]

   5. EREric31:21

      [laughs]

   6. NDNicolas Dessaigne31:21

      Right now at YC, we're gearing up for the spring batch, and that means we're gonna have a whole bunch of new founders coming in, uh, that are in a similar position to the one that you were in at the beginning of winter '23, uh, three years ago. Do you have any advice?

   7. EREric31:34

      I mean, it's gonna sound a lot like the YC advice, but, uh, I really think shipping early is, is probably the most important thing you can do.

   8. NDNicolas Dessaigne31:41

      Mm.

   9. EREric31:41

      And, and actually... 'Cause once you ship, then you can actually learn what people want.

   10. NDNicolas Dessaigne31:46

       Yeah.

   11. EREric31:46

       It's easy like to sort of, yeah, talk to people before you're shipping, and obviously that's very important, but shipping and having something out there and having something that people can pay for and having feedback and bugs and all that stuff, like you- you'll learn sort of the constraints of whatever you're trying to do, and maybe you'll learn that like, oh, you had some downtime, and no one emailed you about it, or no one sent you a message about it. So it's like, oh, maybe we're not building something important.

   12. NDNicolas Dessaigne32:08

       Mm.

   13. EREric32:08

       It's like stuff that you just, you, you can only learn by shipping. So it's not like anything super like innovative, but it is just like please listen to YC's a- advice and, and actually ship as early as you possibly can.

   14. MAMatt32:20

       I think knowing when to carry on as well is really challenging.

   15. NDNicolas Dessaigne32:23

       Mm.

   16. MAMatt32:23

       So like we, you know, version one, um, like there were some signs that there was like a real problem there.

   17. NDNicolas Dessaigne32:31

       Mm.

   18. MAMatt32:31

       Um, and then with like version two of the product, there was, there were more signs, but we didn't have product market fit. And I mean, it was two years-

   19. NDNicolas Dessaigne32:38

       Mm

   20. MAMatt32:39

       ... uh, before we had product market fit, but we kind of kept going, um, 'cause I think there was just enough like hope that there was like a re- there was a real problem here, but we just couldn't, couldn't quite solve it. And I think it's very hard to call like when should we like give up and pivot?

   21. NDNicolas Dessaigne32:53

       Where did that intuition come from?

   22. MAMatt32:55

       I think we, we had had the problem ourselves-

   23. NDNicolas Dessaigne32:58

       Yeah

   24. MAMatt32:58

       ... before, and so we had felt the pain personally. Um, so we, deep down, we, we really felt like it was a worthwhile problem to solve.

   25. EREric33:09

       Yeah, and we sort of knew we like weren't, weren't maybe quite there yet.

   26. NDNicolas Dessaigne33:13

       Yeah.

   27. EREric33:13

       And, but we knew like it w- there's something here, and we, we knew it because like, yeah, we had felt the, the pain for all those years building other things.

   28. MAMatt33:22

       But being really, really close to customers I think is, is the other piece of advice. Again, it's like classic YC advice. But, um, like if you are talking to them every day and getting their feedback, you will, you will realize things that you would never have realized like in, in a vacuum on your, on your own.

   29. NDNicolas Dessaigne33:40

       Guys, I really enjoyed this. Thanks for spending some time with me. That's it.

   30. EREric33:43

       Thanks for having us.

Episode duration: 33:52