Jeff Kaplan: World of Warcraft, Overwatch, Blizzard, and Future of Gaming | Lex Fridman Podcast #493

There's three types of fun: fun for the player, fun for the designer, and fun for the computer.

Is it PvP?

It's all PvP. In fact, Rust is the most PvP thing in all of PvP.

[laughs] Well, I don't know what that means, but [laughs] I-

Rust players know what that means. My whole career and my family are thanks to EverQuest, so I think I won the game.

[laughs]

And we're, we're idiots. We're reading the forums, and the forums are just flaming us all the time. Like, "There's lag on this server," and, "Can't log into that server." And that's, that was our perspective of what was happening. And when I showed up at that show, it... One of the most emotional things in my li- it was nothing but an outpouring of love. I had believed I would never work anyplace but Blizzard. I loved it. It was a part of who I was. Um, and I felt I was a part of it, and I literally thought I would retire from the place. I never thought the day would come, and, uh, that was it.

How painful was it to say goodbye?

It broke me.

Now, meanwhile, as far as the outside world is concerned, you've disappeared off the face of the earth, but you were actually working on a game. The following is a conversation with Jeff Kaplan, a legendary game designer of World of Warcraft and Overwatch, which are two of the biggest, most influential games ever made. He is genuinely one of the most amazing human beings I've ever met. In the many conversations I was fortunate enough to have with him, including while playing video games, he was always kind, thoughtful, hilarious, and still and forever a legit gamer through and through. Of course, he's always quick to celebrate the incredible teams of creative minds he has gotten a chance to work with over the years, and they are truly incredible. Blizzard has created some of the greatest games ever made, games that, to me personally, have brought me thousands of hours of fun, meaning, and happiness, from Warcraft to StarCraft to Diablo, WoW, Overwatch, and more. So for that, a big thank you to Jeff, to the entire Blizzard team, and to every creative mind in the video game industry giving their heart and soul to build video game worlds that we fans get a chance to enjoy. This was a super fun, inspiring, whirlwind conversation, pun intended, with one of the most beloved gamers and game designers ever. Full of memes, lols, wisdom, emotional rollercoaster moments and, of course, Blizzard video game lore. Jeff left Blizzard in 2021 and has been secretly working on a new video game called The Legend of California that I got a chance to play with Jeff. It is incredibly beautiful. Set in the 1800s gold rush era of California, it's an open world online multiplayer game, part adventure and action, part survival, sometimes creating a feeling of loneliness and desperation, and sometimes just awe, watching the sun rise over a beautiful landscape. It's unlike any game that Jeff has ever worked on, and it's a game that I genuinely can't wait to play with all of you. You can wishlist it on Steam, join the alpha later in March, I think, and early access is on the way. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Jeff Kaplan. You were first a legendary video game player, in particular in EverQuest, before you ever became a legendary video game designer on, uh, World of Warcraft and on Overwatch, which I think is a wild journey to go through from gamer to designer. But first, let's go way back. When did you first fall in love with video games?