Antoine Le Nel, CGO @Revolut: How Revolut Launch and Grow Products & Why CAC is a BS Metric | E1216

1. 0:00 – 0:44

   Intro

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel0:00

      If you're a good product manager, you don't need an A-B test. You should be able to know what is the right product. I think the less you believe in, the better it is. I have no belief in anything. There's no CAC discussion at-

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:11

      Wh- why?

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel0:11

      ... Revolut. We only talk about ROI. Because if you talk about CAC, you'll always acquire the worst cohorts. I think the idea of localization is completely overrated. Growth is a bidding war, all right? It's a bidding war. It's about whether you're able to bid above everyone else.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:26

      Ready to go? (upbeat music) Antoine, I am so excited for this. First, thank you so much for joining me today.

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel0:43

      Thank you for having

2. 0:44 – 3:52

   The Success Formula of Candy Crush at King

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel0:44

      me.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:44

      Now, we have many mutual friends, mostly also hailing from your start at King, so I wanna start with that. When you look at the insanely successful growth of Candy Crush, what did King do well that was instrumental to the success and growth?

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel0:58

      I think, first of all, everyone thinks there was, um, a huge amount of luck. I think the idea that what King did really well, I think they tested extensively everything. So it was a volume game, you know, at some point, and I think they understood, they understood that super quickly, saying, "You need to try as much as you can. At some point, something will pick up." You know? And I think they did that super, super, super well, and I think then there was this super fast pace. I remember, we were launching a game, like, I mean, every quarter, pretty much, we were launching a game. And not every w- all of them were successful, but just like, the pace at which we were producing games, releasing the games and so on, I think we did that super, super well.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings1:38

      The thing you have to get very good at, though, is cutting when you see the data isn't showing signs. How long is enough data, or how much data is enough data to know that it wasn't working?

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel1:47

      I think that's the thing that's probably has changed over time at King. I think at the beginning, we were cutting things very quickly, and I think as, as time went, we started to wait longer and longer, say, "Oh, you know what? Give it another chance. Give it another chance. Give it another chance." You know? And I think, I think that's, that's the whole point on when... And that's how you probably can measure the agility of the organization, is how quickly you kill projects versus how many more chances you are giving to them.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings2:12

      So if testing and speed of iteration and testing was something that you did very well-

   7. ANAntoine Le Nel2:16

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings2:16

      ... what was something that King really messed up? (laughs)

   9. ANAntoine Le Nel2:18

      It's definitely the most data-driven organization I've ever been in, um, in the sense that really data was driving the organization. Not just... So if you take the thing literally, the company was driven by data. I think it was so powerful that, uh, and worked so well that at some point we just went way too far in the sense that, for example, when we were launching games sometimes, we were probably looking more at the data than the game itself. You know? It's like, you could have meetings and then you just look at the numbers and you're like, well, uh, you, y-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings2:52

       Is that wrong?

   11. ANAntoine Le Nel2:53

       Well, I mean, that's the big difference, for example, with Revolut, I think. We're a lot more product driven, which means we spend more time looking at the product than looking at the data.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings3:02

       Is the data not an input?

   13. ANAntoine Le Nel3:04

       Exactly. It's an input. It is an input, but it is not that... I mean, at, at, at King it was. At some point, it was the, the only decision maker, you know? That's it. You know? It's, it's, it was very black or white, you know? And the data was, was the decision maker, and I think we, we pushed it probably a little bit too far in this, uh, in this space and not spending maybe the right amount of time on, uh, on the user experience and on just the, the quality of, uh, of the product it- itself, you know?

   14. HSHarry Stebbings3:34

       If you were to say between art and science growth, like numbers ratio, what is it for you? 50/50? 70/30?

   15. ANAntoine Le Nel3:41

       I mean, it... Product and growth is very different. All right? So I think a product should be more about art and a bit less about science when growth should overwrite on science.

3. 3:52 – 5:05

   Lessons Learned About Performance Marketing & Its Limitations at King

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel3:52

   2. HSHarry Stebbings3:52

      In terms of performance marketing, I, I spoke to many from King, and they said, "Oh, you've got to ask him. What did he learn about performance marketing and its limitations?"

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel4:01

      First of all, performance marketing, mastering performance marketing is a huge... Gives you a huge competitive advantage. All right? Because it is a complex thing, and if you do it really well, it makes a huge difference, you know, to your, uh, to your company growth. So that is the power of performance marketing, and the performance marketing is, it's very deep, you know? And, and, and I don't know many people who know all of it.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings4:25

      How have you seen that change over time? 'Cause when you were doing that at King in the early days versus today when it's so much more polluted, crowded, expansive, how has it changed?

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel4:35

      Well, it has changed a little bit, but not so much. Fundamentally, it is still the same game. It's still a bidding war, you know? Uh, now it's true, it's getting a little bit more complex because you're losing some attribution and so on, so you need to be a little bit smarter in your measurement framework, so... But you just need to... I mean, you reinvent yourself every other year. You have to reinvent the whole measurement framework and so on, but at the end of the day, the game is still the same game, you know? It is the same, it's the same bidding war. You just have impressions. You need to, uh, goes to the highest bidder, and that's it, you know? That's what the

4. 5:05 – 7:37

   The Difference Between King & Revolut

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel5:05

      game is.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings5:05

      So you have, you know, King, as we said there, incredibly iterative, data-driven culture, data-driven company to the extreme. What's the biggest difference between King and Revolut?

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel5:15

      I think that's what it is. I remember, you know, so I came from a place at King where we were... We, we, we were later from a maturity perspective, you know? Like, I mean, we had launched, uh, many games and so on. The business was doing fantastic, and we were more in an optimization place where I remember at some point we were running like maybe a thousand A-B tests in parallel and so on. It's like, like it was... It, it was a machine, you know? The, the machine was really optimizing everything, and I remember when I arrived at Revolut, there was not much A-B testing, and for me, I was like shocked at it. I was like, "What?" I mean, like, the... You, you gotta do that. And then what I realized is that, you know, there's a good reason as well why you don't want to do A-B testing. The first thing, um...... product, I mean, uh, product managers, they, they, uh, they do A/B testing to get an idea of what the right product is. If you're a good product manager, you don't need an A/B test. You should be able to know what is the right product. The second reason is because at Revolut, we wanted to do, like, 10X. Everything is 10X in this one. You don't need an A/B test to measure a 10X. You know, you do it, you see it goes up, it's good, you know? And the third reason is that A/B testing increasing your time to market 'cause if you A/B test, you first need to do your A/B test, then you see which one wins, and then you launch. And then, I mean, uh, when I joined Revolut, most of the time was like, no, I mean, you, you just launch. You know?

   4. HSHarry Stebbings6:30

      (laughs)

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel6:30

      You'll see, you know? You'll see if it works. You know? You just-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings6:33

      (laughs)

   7. ANAntoine Le Nel6:33

      ... you just get there. You know? While, while at King, I remember, it was a, a... I mean, you were A/B testing every single week on this, uh, small element. What if we change just this or just that? And then you had multivariate testing, and everything was super, super, super optimized and so on. But it's not at the same... We're not in the same place from a lifecycle perspective. You know, it was much later. I mean, uh, we'll get there, you know, at some point at, uh, at Revolut when it would be more about optimizing than creating, you know?

   8. HSHarry Stebbings6:57

      When we were just chatting before, you said that being at Revolut is like founder mode on steroids, I think was your description. Why so?

   9. ANAntoine Le Nel7:05

      I mean, we have a great team of founders that are heavily involved in, uh, in the business, uh, which really is giving the, um, is giving the tempo, you know, the momentum to, to, to the whole, uh, to the whole company, uh, with the exact same approach and the exact same mindset from since day one, you know? Uh, and, and I think that's quite remarkable, the, the consistency of the approach 10 years after launch. You know? Still the same, uh, still the same mindset and so on, and I think that's

5. 7:37 – 11:19

   How Is Growth Getting Faster at Revolut

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel7:37

      extremely powerful. That's extremely powerful.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings7:38

      I was thinking beforehand, you said the real question with founder mode is actually how long you can keep it up.

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel7:43

      Yeah.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings7:43

      And saying how Nick's dedication today is just as much as it was when you joined-

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel7:47

      Absolutely.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings7:48

      ... is incredible. But I don't think people will actually ask the question of the s- the, the sustenance of the founder mode. Today, we are building a growth engine with Revolut. I mean, the numbers are just insane, and it seems to be getting quicker.

   7. ANAntoine Le Nel8:00

      Yeah, it is. (laughs) It is, it is, it is.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings8:02

      Can we just start there? I spoke to so many people, investors in the business, and they're like, "Henri, it's meant to slow down." They're getting faster and better.

   9. ANAntoine Le Nel8:12

      Mm-hmm.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings8:13

       How?

   11. ANAntoine Le Nel8:13

       I mean, the thing with w- with what we built... So we built an engine which is a combination of many, many things, meaning there's no... Because you have two types of growth. You have the growth that are made of, let's say, launches, let's say marketing campaigns, and, uh, like, some coup. You know, like, you make a big marketing coup, you know, and then back, you get the spike and so on. There's none of that at Revolut, you know? I mean, if anyone... I mean, eh, eh, you're probably gonna ask me, what is the one thing, you know, that really worked at Revolut? I can't tell you, you know? It's a combination of so many things in the growth engine, and because they all add up, when you look at the growth of Revolut, it's just very steady. And it's steady, and it's accelerating, um, uh, week after week, you know? We just monitor every week. The acceleration keeps on going just because the engine gets more and more optimized, you know, as we are progressing. And, and, and for now, we definitely don't see the limit even in our mature markets, you know, which is quite, uh, crazy.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings9:12

       Your product velocity is insane. How do you have such high product velocity?

   13. ANAntoine Le Nel9:18

       I think because we are able to, um... So the organization is very, very flat, all right? Um, and, uh, we are making sure that, um, every team is, um, as self-sufficient as possible, you know? And that's what really build the agility, you know? If you're, uh, if you're self-sufficient in building what you have to build, you just go, you know, with, uh, with, uh, with it. And we run more quarterly cycles and so on, and we have a very high, uh, very high pace. But because there's no interdependencies between the different things that we built, at the end of the day, we are splitting the companies as many startups as possible, you know? I know, like, big organizations who say, "Oh, you know, the, those are silos. People are not, uh, collaborating," et cetera, et cetera. You know, you need to always find the right balance between coordinating things while giving the right amount of focus. I think that's what we, we are, we, we're doing pretty, uh, well at Revolut, where every team has a huge amount of autonomy and a focus to really go very fast in what they do.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings10:21

       When one's not working, do you cut it? Do you give it more time? What does that look like?

   15. ANAntoine Le Nel10:25

       No, we cut quite fast. We c- cut quite fast. Yeah, yeah. When some- something is not working, we just, we just go.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings10:30

       What did you try that didn't work as planned and you cut? And what did you learn?

   17. ANAntoine Le Nel10:34

       Well, so, I mean, on the marketing side, um, we've been, uh, uh... There's been some, uh, some campaigns, for example, that we've been running in some, in some countries where we've been using some, uh, creatives that were quite, um, generic. And after two weeks, we saw it was a disaster, and we just cut it off, you know. We don't wait for the campaign to, uh, to finish. We're just like, "You know what? This is just not happening. This is just, this is... There's no way this will, this will pick up." And you just cut it, you know? While maybe in other places, you would just have continued and said, "You know what? We're here, and then we'll do the retrospective at the end of it." Say, "No," I mean, "it's not working. It's not working," and you just cut it, you know. And fine, your TV campaign that was supposed to run, let's say, for three months, well, after two weeks, if it's not working, you just cut it, and then you move on, you

6. 11:19 – 18:56

   What Is a Growth Engine & How Does It Drive Revolut’s Success?

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel11:19

      know? It's fine.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings11:19

      You mentioned kind of growth engine when you started th- that on, like, what enables Revolut to continue growing so fast. What actually is a growth engine? I know it sounds strange, but we often hear it. What does that actually mean?

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel11:30

      So a growth engine is where, um, uh, where you have multiple components that all play together. I give you, I'll give you a very simple example. I look at it quite, um, uh, the famous full funnel, you know, that, that everyone says. So you have the upper funnel, the mid funnel, and the lower funnel. And the growth engine is when you manage to get those three elements working together.... you know? So at the end of the day, the growth engine is when you make sure that you have the lower funnel that works like a fishing net, grabs all the conversions that ultimately mid and upper funnel are feeding you with. You know? So ... And that's where all of that works in per- i- in perfect synchronization, so that at the end of the day, it's all been grabbed by the, by the, by the lower funnel. So that is, that is the engine. When then you find the right balance between those different elements, that optimize the, the overall, uh, the overall, the overall thing.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings12:31

      What is the right balance?

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel12:33

      Well, it depends on the maturity of the market. Uh, I mean, uh, I think the more mature, the more you will be able to do some upper funnel; the less mature, the more you focus on the, on the conversion, on the conversion itself. So it all ... I- i- it's ... There's no one truth, you know? It's, uh, it evolves, you know, it's a living animal, you know.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings12:52

      What's the hardest thing about constructing a growth engine?

   7. ANAntoine Le Nel12:55

      It is the measurement framework, that's for sure, you know. Uh, you live in a world, especially in tech, where people do things that they can measure, all right? There's always this bias, you know? There's always this bias. And at the end of the day, your competitive advantage will always come from your ability to measure more than your competitors, because then suddenly you're gonna do that. So for example, at King, what we cracked, we cracked the TV measurement framework, uh, way before everyone, and therefore we were the only company running TV.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings13:27

      What do you mean you cracked the TV measurement framework?

   9. ANAntoine Le Nel13:29

      So we were able to have some, uh, some good level of attribution of, between TV and the downloads, and to get ... to be able to really know, um, how much we could attribute to our TV activities. And, and, and because we managed to get that, then we were one of the very first companies to actually make, uh, to make that work, which this is a very good example. The other good example, uh, is, uh, iOS, performance marketing on iOS after scan. And you have companies that know how this works, and therefore they can measure it, and therefore they can scale, and you have all the other ones that, I mean, are really struggling. And so on at the end of the day, they spend maybe two, three times more on Android versus iOS, you know, which is a nonsense, you know?

   10. HSHarry Stebbings14:16

       When should you start thinking about building a growth engine?

   11. ANAntoine Le Nel14:19

       Uh, at the very, very, very beginning, all right? At the very, very beginning, because you know what you ... what ... Because the growth engine is not only paid marketing, you know, I include virality, you know, virali- the, the whole virality aspect is part of the growth, uh, is part of the growth engine. This is the... Even below the lower funnel, you basically have virality. So you need to build, to build this, uh, the, uh, this block super, super early on, and then you start going into the lower funnel, and then you, and then you, and then you go up.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings14:47

       Given virality is baked in, should growth teams be part of product teams? Should they be standalone teams?

   13. ANAntoine Le Nel14:53

       That is a very good, uh, a very good question. I think the way I like it, um, I like it to work is that the product team builds the en- build the, um, the virality engine, and, um, growth operates it. So you build something that is, um, that you can, um, parameter, you know, with parameters, and then you let growth playing with it, you know, because, uh, usually growth will have better analytical framework to measure the ROI and the efficiency of it, uh, while product will have a better product vision and UX aspect into building it. So they build the experience and growth operates it.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings15:34

       What are the most common ways that growth engines break down?

   15. ANAntoine Le Nel15:38

       I think it's when you start, um, bringing a little bit of belief. I think the less you believe in, the better it is, you know. I have no belief in anything, you know.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings15:51

       (laughs)

   17. ANAntoine Le Nel15:51

       I have no belief in anything.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings15:52

       You're so French. (laughs)

   19. ANAntoine Le Nel15:55

       (laughs) But like, it's, i- it's true, you know, because-

   20. HSHarry Stebbings15:58

       What does that mean, I have no belief in anything?

   21. ANAntoine Le Nel16:00

       Well, I don't necessarily believe more in brand than in, uh, influencers, than in this and so on, you know. I mean, wha- I mean, whatever works, works for me, you know?

   22. HSHarry Stebbings16:09

       (laughs)

   23. ANAntoine Le Nel16:09

       And, uh, and I think there, there are some people that believe in things, and they're ju- you know what? Formula 1, it got to work. We got to be on a Formula 1 wing, it got to work. It's like, why? Yes, maybe, I don't know, I'm not sure. Yeah, fine. But like, you see, like, this is, I think this is where it starts to break down, is when you come up with just like (overlapping dialogue)

   24. HSHarry Stebbings16:29

       But this kind of goes against everything that we're told of like the courage of your conviction and being opinionated and standing for something and playbooks. The va- I mean, the value of experienced operators is they bring a playbook, Antoine, and so they know what works.

   25. ANAntoine Le Nel16:45

       Yeah, but you see, for example, I mean, I've ... So I've brought my playbook from King to Revolut, but I have significantly changed it.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings16:53

       What did you change most?

   27. ANAntoine Le Nel16:54

       Well, so for example, the upper funnel, I was never a big fan of upper funnel. I thought that was very difficult.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings17:03

       Sorry, I'm really naive. I'm a venture capitalist for a living. What, what is in the upper funnel?

   29. ANAntoine Le Nel17:07

       That's, uh, the brand marketing let's say.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings17:09

       Ah.
7. 18:56 – 19:30

   What’s Been the Biggest Flop?

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel18:56

      what works and what doesn't work.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings18:57

      What's been the biggest flop? Where you look at it and you're like, "Oh." (laughs)

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel19:00

      I think, uh, I mean, we've been quite lucky. Um, I mean, there's been some influencers that just didn't work at all. Like, I mean, it was the early days, and we tried to, to, to, to do something that we thought was cool and so on. I think doing some big brand campaigns, uh, with, um, with some, uh, let's say some celebrities that just not necessarily, um, super good with social media, let's put it this way, uh, that just doesn't work, you know? So it's... You just learn, you know? You just

8. 19:30 – 22:57

   What Antoine Changed from King’s Playbook to Revolut’s?

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel19:30

      learn.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings19:30

      That, that is hilarious. Okay, so what did you change then from the King playbook? You said there about kinda the upper funnel, and I interrupted you saying, "What is the upper funnel?" What did you change from that playbook with King to Revolut?

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel19:40

      Yeah, so investing more in this, uh, in this, uh, in this brand campaign was, was the big thing, and really identifying the ability that the brand marketing can improve your conversion metrics. I think that was, that was quite, that was quite an insight which has worked, uh, which has worked really well. And this, uh, that is making us, uh, do, uh, do, uh, do more of it.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings20:01

      Can I ask, what is in the mid funnel?

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel20:03

      This is where, I mean, at least the way I l- I s- I look at it, it's the place where you can, um, you can run some level of attribution, but, uh, you have a strong, uh, halo because of the high reach that, uh, you get, and you can develop as well some deeper content. So, performance marketing is basically banners and, uh, or super short videos, you know, like six seconds and so on. So, you don't really build anything in terms of, uh, let's say product awareness, brand, uh, uh, consideration, likeability, and so on. You don't build any of that. So, what you say is that you, you do, you do play the full... Right away, you play the full funnel because you have a big branding impact, but you are revenue generator right away, you know, which is the exact opposite as the Formula 1 thing where there's no revenue, there's nothing, you know? It's like it's pure brand and so on. But w- And that's what I call a bit mid funnel. It's activities that help you do a bit of everything. Like suddenly, you do some brand, but as w- at the same time, you do conversion, and you drive, and you drive revenue, you know? So, you kind of take it all.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings21:11

      And then... Sorry, lower funnel. Lower funnel i- is what specifically?

   7. ANAntoine Le Nel21:15

      It's mostly like performance marketing, affiliates, uh, the referral program, you know, and stuff like that, you know? This is where you really drive and you have full attribution, meaning you know exactly what you pay for.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings21:26

      And so, in growth teams, are there people who are specialized in each segment? Do you expect people to be skilled at all three?

   9. ANAntoine Le Nel21:34

      No, no, no, no, no. I'm a strong believer of specialists, uh, that people should be experts in what they do, and generalist, uh, marketers are, um, are g- are good in managerial positions, but not at doing things necessarily, you know? And that's why we have people who are experts in mid funnel, experts in lower funnel, experts in the upper funnel, and so on. But very, very few people have another side of, uh, of, uh, of all of it. Very few people.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings22:07

       When you start a new market, I think one thing that people don't see enough is just, I mean, Revolut is crushing internationally.

   11. ANAntoine Le Nel22:13

       Definitely.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings22:13

       Like, crushing. When you start a new market, does that whole funnel start again? Like, what does that growth plan look like? What-

   13. ANAntoine Le Nel22:21

       Yeah, you start from scratch. You start from scratch again and so on, and, uh-

   14. HSHarry Stebbings22:24

       Do you notice it gets easier to acquire customers with each subsequent market or not?

   15. ANAntoine Le Nel22:29

       Well, it all depends on, uh, how connected is the market with the previous ones.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings22:35

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ANAntoine Le Nel22:35

       Like, you know, like for example, uh, if, uh, if tomorrow I was to launch, I don't know, in Taiwan, it would be difficult, you know? Like, things will take more time. It all depends on the, uh, on the, on the type of market and the proximity with where Revolut is, because obviously our brand is getting bigger and international and so on. So there are some markets where we're not in, but we already, we already have

9. 22:57 – 27:03

   Does CAC Drop with Brand Growth or Rise with Market Saturation?

   1. ANAntoine Le Nel22:57

      some awareness, you know?

   2. HSHarry Stebbings22:58

      You said the brand's getting bigger. It definitely is. Does CAC get lower over time as brand amplifies, word of mouth increases? Or does it get higher as you saturate target market and you move to the fringes of your ICP?

   3. ANAntoine Le Nel23:14

      Well, I think it's actually both. So, so, uh, because it's exactly that. It's exactly that. It's really those two... You have those two factors playing against each other, and it's about which one is stronger than the other. And then, um, and then it- eh, uh, unfortunately, it really depends on the market, you know? So some markets, the brand is becoming so big that actually you start getting more organic, and it's becoming like super organic, and then the, the, um, the, the, the growth engine is feeding itself, and then it just grows. While others, and it's linked as well to the amount of competition that you have in the market, where actually because you have, um, a diminishing return curve, where it suddenly gets more expensive to get the next one and the next one and the next one. So, I think it really depends on the, on the competitiveness of the market.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings24:05

      I, I think the other thing that's so smart though is like...... there's less of a focus or reliance on CAC if you can expand the other end of the funnel, which is your LTV.

   5. ANAntoine Le Nel24:15

      Yeah. I mean, that's why I- I mean, I don't believe in CAC, you know? Like, and that was the first thing that I-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings24:20

      Say what? (laughs)

   7. ANAntoine Le Nel24:20

      Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the first thing that I brought from King, because at King, we never talk about CAC, you know?

   8. HSHarry Stebbings24:25

      Wh- why? This is all most growth teams and marketing teams talk about.

   9. ANAntoine Le Nel24:28

      Ah, yeah, but there's no CAC discussion-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings24:30

       Wh- why?

   11. ANAntoine Le Nel24:31

       ... at Revolut. We only talk about ROI. Because if you, if you only, if you talk about CAC, you'll always acquire the worst cohorts because you just always go downhill, you know? So what I've done by ar- I mean, arriving at Revolut, is that I increased CAC significantly, but I improved ROI significantly too.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings24:48

       Mm.

   13. ANAntoine Le Nel24:48

       So, because what you realize is that you're not here to get the cheapest users, you're here to get the best users. And sometimes you gotta ex- you gotta pay more, you know? And you need to get, you need to get as granular as possible, and you may have some channels, you know, I don't know, like for example, TikTok and so on, where you, I mean, the, the, maybe the, the cohorts you get from there are not as good as what you can get, for example, from Instagram or other places. So the CAC is irrelevant. CAC is irrelevant, you know? I- because I, if I was to give CAC targets, then we would only do maybe TikTok, for example, and that doesn't make any sense, right? Because I, I won't get my, I won't get my ROI. So, so we never look at CAC.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings25:31

       Is that hard for a team to adjust to?

   15. ANAntoine Le Nel25:34

       Uh, no, I don't... I mean, I, I don't think so. I mean, it's, uh, it's only about, it's only about R-

   16. HSHarry Stebbings25:39

       Also, you have to stomach that for a while, which is kind of interesting 'cause you have to accept paying higher CACs without seeing the higher ROI for a little bit of time.

   17. ANAntoine Le Nel25:49

       Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, because, because, because we go gradually, you know. I mean, like, like, i- i- i- very quickly, if you build good analytical models, you know very quickly whether the cohorts you're acquiring are the good ones.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings26:02

       How do you know?

   19. ANAntoine Le Nel26:03

       I mean, an- and that's why the growth is exponential, because today, I know a lot more than a year ago or than two years ago. So my models are better, so I know better where the good cohorts are and how much I'm ready to pay.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings26:17

       Are those models transferrable on a country by country basis?

   21. ANAntoine Le Nel26:20

       Yeah, yeah, they are.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings26:21

       Really?

   23. ANAntoine Le Nel26:22

       Yeah, yeah. A- and why... I mean, why would London versus Birmingham would be closer than London versus Paris? There's no reason. 'Cause we, I mean, we... The, the, the country definition, beyond language, is completely arbitrary.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings26:39

       Sure. I didn't know if, like, London versus Brazil could be different. Brazil has very different ways of paying for things, they have different ways of bulking payments.

   25. ANAntoine Le Nel26:47

       Yeah, I mean, that's fair. That's fair. You adapt your model depending on the product that you sell, you know? We're not selling the same product necessarily in the same markets, so you can cut it down at the product level, but then at the end of the day, if it's a debit card, it's a debit card, and if it's FX,

10. 27:03 – 29:05

    How Revolut Chooses New Markets

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel27:03

       it's FX, and s-

    2. HSHarry Stebbings27:03

       How do you choose which markets to go to?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel27:06

       Well, we want to be everywhere, so, you know? It's just like... (laughs) It's n-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings27:09

       (laughs)

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel27:09

       Like, the objective for us is to be in every single market, you know? So we don't really, I mean, we don't hi- say, "We want to be there and not there." No, we want to be everywhere, so we just take the list and we try to see which ones are probably easier, quicker, and so on. But at the end of the day, we want to be, we want to be everywhere.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings27:25

       Which market was the worst or hardest, and what did you learn from it?

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel27:30

       I think it's interesting because I had the same... I mean, if I park China, obviously, which is a l- a- is a very different market.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings27:36

       It's quite a difficult one-

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel27:37

       Yeah, it's a difficult one.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings27:38

        ... I can imagine, yeah. That's not an easy one to get your hands around.

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel27:40

        But when... (laughs)

    12. HSHarry Stebbings27:41

        (laughs)

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel27:41

        Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's-

    14. HSHarry Stebbings27:42

        It's only a billion too.

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel27:43

        Yeah, yeah, so-

    16. HSHarry Stebbings27:44

        Come on, Nick. Found the moat. (laughs)

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel27:45

        So, so let's park China-

    18. HSHarry Stebbings27:47

        (laughs)

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel27:47

        ... you know, for a, for, for, for a second. And you see that's, that's the thing, um, that I've seen as well at, uh, m- my experience at King was the most important. I think the idea of localization is completely overrated. I don't believe in localization. That we saw in, uh, in, um, in, uh, at King. It was the same creative working globally everywhere, with one exception, Japan. Uh, Japan is different, I have to say. Japan is a different beast, you know? So, but the rest is the same, you know? It's one global market, you know? And I think that the, the consumer interest, what people are clicking on is the exact same thing, all right? I mean, I, I mean, I'm being a bit extreme obviously, a bit provocative here. But like, what I mean is that the extra, uh, performance you would get by being a lot more localized is not worth the effort. And that's what we're seeing, I mean, like, uh, I mean, at King, and we see that the same, you know, at, uh, at Revolut. I mean, we became number one in, uh, Romania and, uh, Norway with the exact same strategy, the same... I mean, the same thing, you know? Like, and, uh, people say, "Ah, but it's Europe." Yeah, but I mean, if you've been to Romania and Norway, you would realize it's not exactly the same culture in the same country, you know, in many, in many, in many ways. So yeah,

11. 29:05 – 31:54

    Balancing Primary Account Focus vs. Broad Reach

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel29:05

       that's a bit...

    2. HSHarry Stebbings29:06

       People say the most important thing for Revolut to prove out is its ability to be the primary account, and the percent of primary accounts is still low. How do you think about focusing on that versus being everywhere to everyone?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel29:20

       The strategy at Revolut, it's, it's very simple, you know? Obviously, we want people to use us as a primary bank. But we don't need to do... We don't need everyone to do it now, you know? It's a journey, you know? That's, that's, that's the big difference with, let's say, any other banks. When you decide to move, uh, from, uh, HSBC to Barclays, well, you make a, you make a conscious decision that I'm moving there. While Revolut, we're more... We're like a snack, you know? So, so you, you want to take a bite, you know? So you try Revolut, and then maybe because you go on holiday, you know, and you need a card to go on holiday. Okay, fine. Then you come back from holiday and say, "Oh, well, you know, maybe I wanna do a bit of, uh, trading and stuff, you know. I'll buy some ETFs and so on, so..." Then you buy some ETFs. Say, "Oh," then, "I mean, that's a bit of savings. Okay, maybe I can put a bit of savings and then, uh, um, I'm gonna use it every..." And so on. And then-And then you go little by little, and then you reach a point may- I mean, for some people it can take, uh, six months, for some people it can take three years, and so on. And you say, "You know what? I actually have everything I need here." You know? And then, "I'm moving there," you know? So I'm not saying, I mean-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings30:24

       That's pretty much what happened to me, actually.

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel30:26

       Yeah. (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings30:26

       When I started buying crypto on Revolut, I started trading on Revolut. And then I saw actually the interest rate options that you guys had on the premium premium, I was like, "Oh, fuck it, that's pretty good."

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel30:36

       Yeah. Yeah.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings30:37

       Yeah.

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel30:37

       Yeah, so it's not... I mean, and that, I think that's the power-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings30:39

        But that's a really interesting change in the adoption of bank accounts.

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel30:43

        Yeah. Totally. Totally. Totally. You don't, we're, we're not asking people, say, "Hey, change bank." No.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings30:47

        You're, like, encouraging promiscuity. (laughs)

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel30:50

        Yeah, but come and try us.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings30:51

        Yeah.

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel30:51

        But, but, you know, come and try us. You know? Have a try. I mean, you don't like it, don't... I mean, it's fine, just use it maybe wh- when you go on holiday. I mean, that's fine, you know? That's fine. And then maybe at some point, I'll be able to convince you with some specific products, some specific anything, that ultimately will take you there. But, like, the idea is not to say, "Okay, by H2 2025, everyone will have to be a prime." No, everyone takes at, at your own pace. You get there, you know, and, and, and, and it's fine.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings31:18

        I think some people are kind of critical about crypto and what it did to numbers. How do you think about that and respond to that? When they're like, "Oh, it caused a big spike, Revolut dived into crypto." It's like, yeah?

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel31:29

        I mean, what's wrong with a spike? I'm not gonna try... (laughs)

    18. HSHarry Stebbings31:32

        (laughs)

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel31:32

        You know, everybody's happy with a spike, right?

    20. HSHarry Stebbings31:34

        Yeah.

    21. ANAntoine Le Nel31:34

        It's good. I mean, I think, I mean, crypto is... It would be very oblivious to say that crypto is not part of the financial world, you know? It is, it is a core component, you know, of financial products, you know, today, and yeah. And as Revolut, we have the objective to be the one-stop shop for any type of financial product. You, you gotta have,

12. 31:54 – 34:27

    What’s the North Star Metric for Measuring Success?

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel31:54

       you gotta have that. Yeah, 100%.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings31:54

       So what's the North Star metric for you, then? When you look at the numbers, when you look at the analytics, what's the, like, are we doing a good job determining it?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel32:02

       All right, well, we look at, uh, we look at, uh, three things, I'd say, obviously. So the first thing is the volume of users, you know, that we're getting. The second thing is the ROI at which we are acquiring them. What's the payback? What is the, in, in, in months? Um, and the last one is, out of the people that are with us, I mean, been on that journey, you know, that I was explaining, I mean, how they're progressing towards becoming a primary user.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings32:29

       Payback-wise, how's that changed over time?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel32:31

       It doesn't necessarily change. Um, I think it's, um, I think, a- again, it, it, it all depends on, on the mar- it's a market by market thing in some ways. But we are, we're very standardized, so it's very stable. It's very stable. We haven't changed much.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings32:49

       What's the hardest thing about your role today, Antoine?

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel32:51

       It's a bit what I was s- saying about the living animal of the growth engine, you know? Because ... So, I mean, we've built an engine that is working today, but it doesn't mean that it's gonna work forever, you know? So you need to progressively evolve it pieces by pieces, and that's very difficult, you know? When you know something works and you need to keep iterating so that you make sure it keeps working and you keep being one step ahead of everyone, you know? And that's... I think that's difficult. You know, it's, uh, it's always this idea, you know, of the cow getting eaten from the back, you know, and you, and, and, and you, and you realize really late that actually, I mean, you're gone, you know? And I think staying on top of it, even though it's working really well, never be complacent about the success we have. We rarely look back at Revolut, like, um, we, we're never happy about our success, you know? It's very rare we reach our targets, you know. We never reach our targets, you know, because our targets are much greater than what we, than what we're achieving. So I think it's really-

    8. HSHarry Stebbings33:55

       Do you think founders today set targets the right way?

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel33:58

       Yeah, I think so.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings34:00

        You do?

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel34:00

        Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't know all founders, but-

    12. HSHarry Stebbings34:02

        If you never set, if you never set targets that can be hit, does it not just lead to bad morale?

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel34:07

        I, at the end of the day, you know, between the way this works and the way Google does OKRs, you know, where we know, I mean, OKRs, I mean, you know the theory about OKRs, you should always be around 70, 80% of achievement. It's the same, the same thing, you know? So you need to be ambitious, but realistic. So reaching 80% of your target, that's

13. 34:27 – 40:18

    How Does Ideation Work in Growth Team Meetings?

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel34:27

       good.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings34:27

       So, but you, you, you said there about kind of making sure that you're not the cow that gets eaten from behind. How do you do meetings with the growth team? Like, what does that look like? Is it like a weekly brainstorm where, like, you throw shit at the wall and get creative? How does that look in terms of the ideation amongst the growth team?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel34:45

       Yeah, well, we have a very... Uh, it's extremely standardized, extremely processed, you know, as everything at, at Revolut. So we have, um, uh, we work on weekly cycles. All right? So in the growth team, we have, I don't know, I think it's 20, 25 different teams, you know?

    4. HSHarry Stebbings35:02

       20, 25 different teams?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel35:03

       Yeah. Uh, because we work as a matrix, you know, so you have the China people, and then you have the local people, and all of those are teams, you know? And then we run, uh, so I run a weekly business review, you know, for all those teams. So I meet all the teams every week. Um, and those are mostly, uh ... So obviously we review numbers, but it's more like problem-solving sessions, you know? We bring a problem, and we try to solve it together, and then, and then they have a week, they solve it, and then we, we reiterate the week after, we reiterate, we reiterate. I think the power of very short cycles is that there's no time wasted in, in presenting. It's quite interesting, because in the sense that if you had a meeting on, uh, I mean, only once a month and so on, you would actually spend... I mean, I mean, we know how teams are, you know, they spend the, the last two, three days, you know, just preparing the presentation for the exec, you know? It's a waste of time.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings35:59

       Such bullshit.

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel36:00

       While...When you run it every week, you're like, "I'm not pre-" I mean, they're not preparing the meetings. So you just start the meeting, say, "Okay, so where are we at?" and so on. You know, you prepare a lot less, you know, the, the meeting, and you just, you just bring the, the Jira board, and you just bring, uh, the dashboard, and you just, you just look at it, and then you just try to solve the problem, you know, with no specific preparation. And then you iterate, you iterate, you iterate. And then you get very regular feedback. So you don't get surprised, like you work on something for a month, and then you get, uh, someone say, "No, that's not the right direction. You need to go." So, you course correct things very, very quickly.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings36:34

       How many of these meetings do you have?

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel36:36

       Uh, 20, 25 a week, yeah.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings36:38

        20 to 25 a week?

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel36:39

        Mm-hmm.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings36:39

        And they're half an hour each?

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel36:41

        Yeah, uh.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings36:42

        You must be like constantly in these meetings.

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel36:44

        Yeah, but then I, I have only... I don't, I don't have ad hoc meetings. So there's already a meeting for every topic. So if you want to talk about something, there is already a meeting for you to talk about it, you know? It's not like those agendas that look very different every week, you know? Like, my agenda looks exactly the same. I probably have my agenda until the end of year and meet next year and so on. It's already set. I know exactly what I'm gonna do, and then you just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings37:09

        What do you still do in your agenda that you do not like doing?

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel37:13

        I think I would have cut them already (laughs) if it was, uh, if it was the case. I don't-

    18. HSHarry Stebbings37:17

        What's your favorite thing in your agenda?

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel37:19

        I think those meetings, I love those meetings.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings37:20

        You love those meetings?

    21. ANAntoine Le Nel37:21

        Uh, yeah, because it's really problem-solving, you know? And it's really open discussions, you know, with everyone, and it's not-

    22. HSHarry Stebbings37:25

        How many people are in the team on the other end?

    23. ANAntoine Le Nel37:27

        Well, it depends, depends on ones, but between 10 and 40.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings37:31

        Wow. That's a lot. How, how do you do like idea synthesis, idea discussion? I mean, shit, you've got 40 people at sometimes on a call.

    25. ANAntoine Le Nel37:39

        You know as well, that's, those meetings are important, especially when we are remote working, uh, because it helps connecting, you know? W- We're, we're connecting to, uh, to each other, and it's the place where you drive the culture, you know? Because even though you may not participate in that meeting, you see how it's happening, you know? You see the expectations, you know? You understand what we are trying to achieve and how we are trying to deliver and so on. So it's a great way for you to understand how things, uh, how things are working ...

    26. HSHarry Stebbings38:12

        Are you able to be fully honest and true with all 40 there?

    27. ANAntoine Le Nel38:15

        Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, and they can tell you. Yeah, yeah. I'm very, I'm very transparent. I think that's the power of, uh, of Revolut, and, uh, and that's the same, I mean, with Nick and so on. I mean, like, we are, we are working in full transparency. There's no surprises at Revolut.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings38:30

        (laughs) Really make something direct. Uh-

    29. ANAntoine Le Nel38:31

        Uh, because if you take a decision, and the decision is no, uh, and then, and then you can appeal, in a way, you know, to try to negotiate to make it yes, like every companies do, you know, and then, and then, and then you add up time, you add up those ad hoc meetings. "Oh, let's do another meeting to, to really look at it, and then do another one," and so on. No, no, if we say yes, it's yes. If we say no, it's no, and then we move on. And there are some false positive, you know, into it. You know, there are definitely some false positive where we may say yes and it should have been a no, and there are we said no, it should have been a yes. So I'm not saying it's perfect. It's not perfect at all, you know? But, but at least we move a lot faster, you know? And yes, there are, there are, there's some costs in terms of false positive. But it's a lot more, it's a lot more powerful.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings39:13

        I always say to Gustav at Spotify, who's the CEO of Spotify, and he says, you know, "Talk is cheap, so we should do a lot more of it."
14. 40:18 – 41:58

    Cracking the US Market

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel40:18

       we see it work.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings40:18

       How do you think about Revolut US? The US is always the big golden nut to crack.

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel40:24

       (laughs)

    4. HSHarry Stebbings40:24

       Everyone's tried it. How do you think about how to crack the US?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel40:27

       Yeah, I mean, uh, obviously it's a different, it's a different market. It's a lot more credit focused, uh, compared to Europe, which is a debit, uh, it's mostly, I mean, uh, yeah, it's a bit more debit, uh, debit focused. Um, it's interesting, you know, because when you look at it, uh, even local fintechs, they're not that big.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings40:46

       No, I mean, your Chime is probably one of the biggest and -

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel40:49

       Your Chime.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings40:49

       ... it's known.

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel40:49

       Yeah, yeah, I mean, Cash App is, but it's not that big, you know, go- when you consider the size of the US, you know, it's- (laughs)

    10. HSHarry Stebbings40:55

        No, it, no, it's really-

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel40:56

        ... the size of the economy-

    12. HSHarry Stebbings40:56

        ... poor. I mean, Chime, you know, is probably a quarter of the enterprise value of Re- of Revolut now.

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel41:01

        Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I, I, I think there is, um, a negative correlation between the maturity of the economy and, uh, and the penetration of fintech. You know? Like, take the other example, uh, Germany. Germany, like, like, like, like there's no, I mean, like the penetration of fintech is Germany's extremely low, extremely low, you know, as, as well. While-

    14. HSHarry Stebbings41:23

        Why is that?

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel41:23

        While if you look at the penetration of fintech in India or in Pakistan or in, uh, in some places in Africa and Indonesia and, uh, in all those places, it's like way more mature, you know? You have a lot more, you know, from a penetration perspective. Why? You know, it's a bit like, um, in telecoms, you know, in telecoms where the, um, uh, the penetration of, uh, mo- of mobile actually went super high because ultimately what they did, they jumped generation that never built any ADSL cable, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it's like, "You know what? Screw it. We'll just jump directly to the next generation."

15. 41:58 – 47:35

    The Power of Remote Teams

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel41:58

    2. HSHarry Stebbings41:58

       You mentioned kind of the global, uh, element there of, you know, Taiwan and Indonesia and then Germany. Um, you live in Barcelona and-

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel42:06

       I do.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings42:06

       ... you have a remote team. You very much believe in the power of remote teams.

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel42:10

       Yep.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings42:11

       Can you unpack that for me? Why?

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel42:14

       So not everything is good about remote, first of all. Uh, that, uh, that, and that-

    8. HSHarry Stebbings42:18

       What's bad about remote?

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel42:19

       What ba- I mean, like, the human, the, the, the human contact, you know, I think as well. I mean, at some point, you need to, you need to be with people and so on, especially when you're early on in your career and so on. For some people, it doesn't, doesn't work, you know, be alone at home and so on. And I, I really respect that, and I think that's something that we need to work on.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings42:36

        How often do you get together now?

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel42:37

        Once a year.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings42:38

        Once a year?

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel42:39

        Yeah, yeah.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings42:39

        Okay.

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel42:40

        Often.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings42:40

        So you do once a year meetups. That's, uh, frequent. (laughs)

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel42:44

        (laughs)

    18. HSHarry Stebbings42:44

        That's really good for the loneliness pandemic. Well done, Anton.

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel42:47

        (laughs)

    20. HSHarry Stebbings42:47

        Um, so we have, uh, once a year meetups-

    21. ANAntoine Le Nel42:50

        Yeah.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings42:50

        ... and that's the downside. What, what, why do we think it's great?

    23. ANAntoine Le Nel42:54

        You get a lot more efficient in the way you're running meetings. Meetings are a lot more efficient when you run, uh, when you, uh, when, when you run things, when you run things remotely, meaning you can actually have meetings of 15 minutes or 30 minutes, you know. It works. You know, a meeting of 15 minutes remotely works. In the real world, it doesn't work, a meeting of, uh, a meeting of 15 minutes, uh, which means you have a lot more efficiency, you know, in, in this. The second aspect, I feel like it's a great equalizer, uh, versus physical meetings in the sense that dominant people get, uh, flattened out, you know, in a way, by the video conference system. You know what I mean? Like, for example, I do have, I know I have a dominant nature. Where I sit in the room matters. You know what I mean? And then the presence you can have physically, you know, in a meeting room matters, you know. So in a world where, um, uh, uh, 'cause we talk a lot about diversity and so on, I think the, the, the diversity aspect that is a bit overlooked is, uh, introvert versus extrovert. And I think in the world of remote, I think it gives a much stronger chance to introvert people, more introvert people to have deeper impact in meetings compared to in real life. You know, like the system into where you raise a hand to talk while you can't r- you don't really raise a hand in a physical meeting, you know. Like, some people just don't get the opportunity to say what they want to say in a physical meeting, you know, because it did not happen, you know. People, people tend to cut off each other, et cetera, et cetera. So sometimes the dynamic can, can be quite, quite polluted, while when you're on the video conference, you know, like, you just raise, you press the button to raise the hand, and then people will let you, you know, uh, speak in a very polite way and so on. So I think that works really well. I think that is, that is, that is the best invention for that, I think. (laughs)

    24. HSHarry Stebbings44:55

        I really think so. (laughs) Do you not think that we need to develop some social skills and say, "Uh, I'm so sorry, Anton, do you mind if I just jump in here? Actually, I was thinking this." Like, I think we, we-

    25. ANAntoine Le Nel45:06

        But it's not easy for everyone to say that.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings45:08

        No, but you learn and you grow, and you, you... But that's how you do it. It's like anything. You learn by doing. And we are creating an escape valve for people to not learn. And actually, the lessons for everything in life is in the cracks. Me and you come out of a customer pitch, okay, what... Say, and on the tube home, you're like, "Henry, what did you notice about that? What did we do well? What did we not do well?" You never have postmortems in a remote world, ever.

    27. ANAntoine Le Nel45:34

        Well, yes and no. So because the way we work, the postmortem, because I... So I have all my business review, as I was mentioning, but then I have the same ones as one-on-ones with the lead of every single of those business review that I use as feedback session of the previous business review.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings45:52

        But then you've got 50 meetings a week.

    29. ANAntoine Le Nel45:54

        Yeah. So ultimately, you know, it's, it's a loop where I use business review, where, um, I give a lot of my inputs, you know, in a way, but I use my one-on-ones to receive the feedback from what we talked about. And as this way, I have a touchpoint pretty much every other day with all my team leads, et cetera, et cetera, you know, whether it's in a meeting or whether it's in one-on-one, and then we close the loop so that we do have the feedback loop.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings46:23

        You do with the lead, but the ten people beneath them who are all-
16. 47:35 – 50:16

    Biggest Mistakes in Hiring for Growth Roles

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel47:35

       it, keep it simple.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings47:36

       What are the biggest mistakes that you think people make in hiring and growth?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel47:39

       I think they hire, uh, generalist people to run stuff, so they end up running many things in a pretty average way. So it's better to do less and deeper than try to have a lot of breadth and do many things in a just okay-ish way. I think that's... And then they hire growth managers, which I, I, I've no idea what the growth manager is.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings48:04

       They manage growth, Anton.

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel48:05

       Yeah, but like... (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings48:07

       (laughs)

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel48:07

       Yeah, but what is growth? What is growth? Is it, uh, variety? Is it performance marketing? Is it, uh, some, uh, brand marketing aspect? What is it? Is it pricing? Is it... Well, I mean, you can do anything, you know.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings48:18

       You said what is growth. Y- you know, when we were chatting before, you mentioned 10X or a 100X. The thing I'm never sure about with growth is like, is growth's role, "Let's try this big picture, new product that's gonna change Revolut forever," or is it, "Let's iterate on all of these little things that combined will add up to a big thing"?

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel48:38

       Yeah. So, um, it's definitely the second one. I'm a huge advocate of the second one. I give you a, a very simple ana- analogy, you know? Lo- look at, uh, uh, Usain Bolt. Everyone remembers Usain Bolt, all right? Uh, but he was not winning by much. He was not winning by 10x, he was winning by a hundredth of a second and so on, because he's was able to optimize the departure, this, et cetera, et cetera. So he was not 10x better than everyone, but at the end, everyone thinks he was 10x better than... You, you see what I mean? And it's because growth is a bidding war, all right? It's a bidding war. It's about whether you're able to bid above everyone else, you know, on all the different channels, you know, at the end of the day. So the question is, how are you able to bid above everyone, and how do you optimize every single step so that you're the winner takes it all in growth? The winner takes it all. And that's why it's ultimately because you optimize every single part of either the funnel, either the creative, either your bidding strategy, et cetera, et cetera. It's every single element that... Like, small increment of 1% here, 2% there, et cetera, et cetera, that add up to put you on top of the waterfall and to take it all.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings49:53

        So people are wrong to think then that it is these kind of moonshot bets, that it's growth?

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel49:58

        Yeah. I think so, uh, totally. They fish for mo- for the moonshot and so on, while actually, it's just down there being excellent in the execution, everything you do at the lowest level of granularity. And once you have everything... That's, that's why, you know, when I was saying, if someone asked me, "What is the success of Revolut?"

17. 50:16 – 52:18

    What Does Revolut Still Need to Optimize?

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel50:16

       It's a million things. One million things.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings50:18

       What have you not optimized with Revolut yet that you need to optimize?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel50:22

       I think we're still, uh, very much at the beginning of, uh, um, uh, building our, uh, brand marketing. I think we're still a very young brand, and I think that's, that's probably the biggest work that we have ahead of us, is to find the right way to position, uh, the brand and inspire people. I think that's, that, that is the biggest thing.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings50:45

       What does great brand mean to you?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel50:47

       So first of all, about brand, uh, the question is, where does brand fit? Is brand a marketing thing or a product thing? You know, because a lot of people think about brand on marketing, and I give you two examples out of sample of two, which is King and Revolut. The brand was much bigger before a single dollar of marketing was spent. All right? So the brand had nothing to do with marketing. Uh, it was a huge brand before putting any, any penny. So-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings51:17

       Would you not argue that it's both? And I'll take-

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel51:20

       Yeah.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings51:20

       I'll take the iPod, okay? It's the way that it was boxed, the way that it felt-

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel51:25

       Yeah.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings51:25

        ... the scroll wheel, the white, silver, the product. But it was also the brilliance of a thousand songs in your pocket, the white background, the beautiful pictures. It was a combination that made it pop.

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel51:37

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, um, I think it's in between. I think in the early days, it's definitely more a product thing, and then it becomes, with maturity, a bit more of a marketing thing. But I think we take too much of a shortcut putting brand in marketing and saying, "Well, you know what? Brand is marketing product." I think it's not. It's about, as you said, it's the user experience, you know? It's like, how the product make you feel, you know, and so on. And then what marketing does, marketing is just an amplifier or a catalyst into it, you know? We just try to amplify whatever it makes you feel, and just make it bigger, you know, feel it more, and so on. But at the end of the day, it's still the product that is starting the journey. The brand

18. 52:18 – 55:45

    Which Brand Antoine Respects Most Today & Why?

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel52:18

       journey is starting there.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings52:19

       What brand do you respect most today, and why them?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel52:22

       I mean, you mentioned Apple. I mean, obviously, Apple is a, is a great brand beca- because they've done, uh, uh, they've done something that is quite amazing. I mean, Apple and as well some of the luxury brands like-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings52:34

       Yes.

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel52:34

       ... Louis Vuitton and so on, which is quite amazing that they've developed a luxury positioning for mass market.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings52:40

       Hmm.

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel52:41

       You see what I mean?

    8. HSHarry Stebbings52:41

       But I would say Louis V is actually challenged most because of that. I would say they have failed, which is a bold statement, but they have now gone so low and tried to be-

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel52:51

       Yeah, probably.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings52:51

        ... so mass market that they've lost the high end. Chanel is the best.

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel52:56

        Yeah, yeah. Chanel-

    12. HSHarry Stebbings52:57

        They transcend-

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel52:57

        Chanel and Hermès are, are fantastic. Yeah.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings52:59

        ... transcend age and geography.

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel53:01

        Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and... But Apple is the same in a way, you know?

    16. HSHarry Stebbings53:04

        Agree.

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel53:05

        Apple is super premium, you know? It's, it's, it's a luxury product, let's face it. I mean, look at the price of those, of, of, of those-

    18. HSHarry Stebbings53:11

        Like, £3,000 for laptops or something?

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel53:13

        (laughs) It's, it's like...

    20. HSHarry Stebbings53:14

        I remember when they were, like, 600 quid.

    21. ANAntoine Le Nel53:16

        Yeah, exa-... But, but... Yeah, but... And, and, and phones, back in the days, we were not paying for it. They were part of your subscription.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings53:21

        But it goes back-

    23. ANAntoine Le Nel53:23

        Yeah.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings53:23

        ... to the ROI though, of like, the phone has become so much more important. It is your viewing device, your TV in many respects, your subscript-... Your bank.

    25. ANAntoine Le Nel53:32

        Yeah. Yeah.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings53:33

        It's... So the ROI, to your point, has gone up so much of a phone that the willingness to pay £1,600...

    27. ANAntoine Le Nel53:39

        Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's a new... I mean, it's like a month of salary, you know?

    28. HSHarry Stebbings53:46

        (laughs)

    29. ANAntoine Le Nel53:47

        That's what it is. Can you imagine? You know, that's the, the... That's what it is. So I think that's, that is-

    30. HSHarry Stebbings53:52

        I hope that's not a month of salary. (laughs) Not too much.
19. 55:45 – 57:11

    Which Product Had High Expectations but Low Impact?

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel55:45

       way around.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings55:45

       What product did you think would have the most impact, that in the end ended up having the least?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel55:51

       I think, I mean, we launched the, uh, the, the, the, the crypto exchange, was a great, was a great product. I mean, it's doing good, but I did not really... I mean, it, it did not necessarily pick up the way we wanted, uh, yet, but, uh, maybe, yeah.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings56:06

       Does anyone use the airport lounges?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel56:08

       Yeah, that works.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings56:09

       That works?

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel56:09

       I mean, especially, uh, now as part of the, uh, you know, with the, uh, Ultra, uh, subscription.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings56:15

       Ultra is like the premium plan.

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel56:16

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings56:16

        This is like the 600 quid a year one.

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel56:18

        Yeah, yeah. This is working.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings56:20

        That's working?

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel56:20

        Yeah, that's working.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings56:21

        Yeah. I, I got one.

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel56:22

        Yeah, yeah, especially, I mean, UK, France, and those markets it's working really well.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings56:26

        What's the best thing that you get from it?

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel56:28

        Well, you get th- so you get this, but as well you get better interest rates as well on some of your, uh, saving accounts. You get, uh, a free subscription to, uh, to FT, uh, to, uh, to other type of services. I mean, if you like playing chess, chess.com Platinum is coming for free and so on. So you get a lot of add-ons on top, on top of that.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings56:48

        (laughs)

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel56:48

        It's-

    20. HSHarry Stebbings56:48

        All for 600 quid a year?

    21. ANAntoine Le Nel56:50

        All for 600 quid a year. No, but I mean, you have-

    22. HSHarry Stebbings56:52

        (laughs) I hope you got a lot of cash in your account 'cause (laughs) the interest premiums are gonna have to be big for that one.

    23. ANAntoine Le Nel56:57

        But you get now as well, we've launched RevPoints, you know, the loyalty program, you know, which is, uh, giving you miles and so on. And it's almost... I mean, it's much stronger once you... I mean, depending on which plan you're on, and that drives a lot

20. 57:11 – 58:51

    Working with Nikolai

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel57:11

       of loyalty.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings57:12

       You've worked with Nick now for a number of years. What makes him so good?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel57:15

       It's his, uh, resilience. It's his ability to focus, and it's his ability to, uh, really... He has really the, the... He mastered the helicopter view, where he's flying around everything, and then when he sees a problem, he lands, and he lands, you know, and then he cracks it, you know, and then he goes deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. And then once it's solved, takes off again, flies around, sees where there is another problem, lands, dig, dig, dig, fix it, and then starts again. And that's, uh, uh, uh, and keeps on going.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings57:52

       How have you changed as an operator working with him?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel57:56

       So while I've taken his approach of managing, uh, of managing my teams, you know, what, what we, what we said about-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings58:03

       Beating them weekly. (laughs)

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel58:06

       Yeah, I mean, like, like the whole problem-solving thing, you know? The whole, we are all here to solve problems. I'm not here to he-... I mean, I'm not going in meetings to hear how good you're doing, which is what most meetings are about in corporate, in the corporate world, you know? You get... You bring the exec so that you do a nice presentation about how good your latest campaign was, and then you move to the next one, and then at the end... I mean, the diary of an exec is just, uh, everyone is like, "Oh, wow, we're amazing," and so on, and that's really not... That is, th- that's a... Yeah, of course it's important to see what's working well, but I really want to know where the problems are and trying, we can find a solution collectively, you know, into, into solving it, you know? I think that's, that's the thing that is, is very,

21. 58:51 – 1:01:47

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. ANAntoine Le Nel58:51

       very powerful.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings58:52

       I love that. Uh, okay, listen, I could talk to you all day, so I'm gonna do a quick fire round with you. I say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

    3. ANAntoine Le Nel58:58

       Okay, let's try it.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings58:59

       So what tactics in growth have not changed over the last five years?

    5. ANAntoine Le Nel59:03

       I think performance marketing is still the key.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings59:05

       What tactics have died a death?

    7. ANAntoine Le Nel59:07

       I think virality is a lot more difficult than what it used to be. I think people are less keen to share compared to before. Before, they were more keen on sharing to everyone. I think it's a little bit different nowadays.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings59:19

       True. iOS changes have made that tougher and are gonna continue to make that tougher.

    9. ANAntoine Le Nel59:23

       Yeah.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings59:23

        Has TikTok made virality easier?

    11. ANAntoine Le Nel59:25

        Yeah, but by virality I mean like me telling you what to do, you know, and so on. You know, through not just word of mouth, but through that... It's a bit more difficult.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings59:33

        What is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring growth teams?

    13. ANAntoine Le Nel59:38

        They hire a generalist to do a bit of everything. They should focus.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings59:42

        You've got a growth leader and he comes to you and says, "Antoine, I'm starting my new role tomorrow as head of growth," what do you advise them the day before they start?

    15. ANAntoine Le Nel59:50

        Build the analytical framework before you start spending anything.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings59:54

        What would you most like to change about the world of growth?

    17. ANAntoine Le Nel59:57

        I would change, uh, platforms that on the idea of, uh... I think there is a lot of bullshit on, um, on privacy, where they use as well sometimes this pretext to just reposition their platform as a brand platform. And because it's brand, just spend whatever you want and you don't track anything and it's better for them. I think it's bullshit.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:24

        Penultimate one. What product does Revolut not have today that you would love to have?

    19. ANAntoine Le Nel1:00:29

        Well, we're working on it. I want mortgage.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:31

        You want mortgage?

    21. ANAntoine Le Nel1:00:32

        Mm-hmm.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:33

        Wow. That'll be fucking cool. Do you have student loans?

    23. ANAntoine Le Nel1:00:37

        Not yet.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:38

        That'd be cool.

    25. ANAntoine Le Nel1:00:39

        That would be really cool as well.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:40

        Yeah.

    27. ANAntoine Le Nel1:00:40

        That would be really cool. I agree.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:42

        Is mortgages and student loans a game changer?

    29. ANAntoine Le Nel1:00:44

        I think... Oh, yeah, for sure, 100%, because whether you sell it or not, it's a huge perception shift.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:51

        Are you worried that the banking license will inhibit speed?

Episode duration: 1:01:48