Elias Torres, Co-Founder and CEO @ Agency: What No One Tells You About Selling Your Company

1. 0:00 – 2:54

   Intro

   1. ETElias Torres0:00

      ... Drift is the biggest failure in my life. Like, I wanted to build something great. I wanted to build something sustainable, right? To walk around in your own company and you don't matter anymore, right? You bring a new CEO, you bring new management, it, it hurts the ego, right? And you created this, and then you're no longer relevant. I would have a public company right now if, if, if I, if it wasn't for, like, all those carrots that I gave, and, and candy bars and, and, and trophies. It's sad to, to, to be nobody.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:29

      Ready to go? Elias, dude, I cannot wait for this. Listen, Julian Beck, Pat Grady, two of my closest buddies said, "This is the show that we have to do." I'm so thrilled that we can make it happen in person, so-

   3. ETElias Torres0:51

      (laughs)

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:51

      ... thank you for joining me.

   5. ETElias Torres0:52

      No, absolutely, no pressure.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings0:54

      No pressure at all. But I wanted to start actually on something that you tweeted before, but it just really kind of hit home for me. You said, "I don't care a lot. People hear this and many versions of that phrase often from me. The reality is that I pretend I'm a nihilist to cope with the fact that I actually care, care way too much." I wanted to start with this 'cause at a, at a Jordan Peterson event, someone asked, "The depths of my consciousness causes me to suffer. Is it a blessing or a curse to feel so very deeply?" I know it f- feels like a deep start. (laughs)

   7. ETElias Torres1:26

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings1:26

      But how do you think about that?

   9. ETElias Torres1:29

      It is a great quote, right? I think, (laughs) it's funny 'cause yeah, I, I, I tweet not that much, and, and when I do, Brian Halligan tells me, "Why are you tweeting? Get back to work," right? And so I, I kinda don't wanna tweet 'cause it's, it's hard for me. But uh, I really think it's a paradox. I think life is a paradox, right? It's like we always want just one answer. And, uh, in my case, I just find myself saying that a lot. Like, "I don't care," right? "I don't care." And people are like always doubting, like, do I care or do I not really care? What am I doing? Uh, and, um, just something that I found, maybe it's something later in my life now and, and the success that I've gotten, and the, my family, and all the things that I've been able to accomplish and, and so far, you know, I'm close to 50 now, that allow me to realize what I care and what I don't care about, right? And so it's been, it's been easy. A- another thing is that the life of an entrepreneur is really hard. Most people don't wanna be rejected, right? Most people don't wanna be told no. And so I've been said no to so many times. I have had many people quit on me. I have many people, you know, churn as a customer. So you get beaten up so much that you just realize it's, it's just going to be okay, right? And so when I say I don't care, it's not that I don't care. I do care, but I know it's, it's okay, it's going to be fine, right? And so I, I just don't, don't care a lot anymore, (laughs) uh, but I, but I do care. You see how

2. 2:54 – 11:34

   Do Rich Founders Make Better Founders: How Backgrounds Shape You

   1. ETElias Torres2:54

      complicated it is?

   2. HSHarry Stebbings2:54

      I, I, I totally do. Do you care less with more money?

   3. ETElias Torres2:59

      You care less about some things, yeah. Uh, yeah, absolutely, right? It's, it's, um, there's so many things that we s- we, we worry so much about. Like, you know, the, the plumbing broke, you know, the car has, you know, you n- do you need new tires? Um, you know, it's like, oh, this, this trip got canceled. You have to pay this fee. So that is a huge release, you know, of stress that I just don't care about that stuff anymore. So that just takes, like, I don't know, one-third of the problems. And I'm just like, "Okay, I don't care. Just pay it," you know? Move on.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings3:30

      I interview many incredible founders like you, and often I say, "What would you most like to tell your 21-year-old self?" And so many say, "I wish I could tell myself that it would all be okay."

   5. ETElias Torres3:41

      Exactly.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings3:42

      And I think that's terrible advice. Because the fear that it won't be okay drives you to succeed.

   7. ETElias Torres3:48

      I, I think what I, the ad- my advice that I would give is different, right? I, I, I do think it is true that things are gonna be okay. M- m- meaning that wherever you end up, it's going to be okay. It's about complacency is, is the secret of happiness, right? I, I would say that, what I would tell my old self is that things are not as hard as they seem. That's what I would tell my, my old self, my young self.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings4:11

      What do you mean by that?

   9. ETElias Torres4:13

      I think we put our, we put ourselves through so many roadblocks. We, we're like, "I can't start a company, it's too hard," right? And we're like, "No, it's actually not that hard." Starting it, (laughs) finishing it and exiting is different. But uh, I, I think we, we think everything's too hard. Uh, it's like if I tell a random person on the street, "Uh, you can build an LLM yourself," everybody's gonna say, "It's too hard." Is it too hard? It's really not that hard. The code fits on a, like a page on the screen. It's really that small. And so, uh, it's just, that's the thing. It's like everybody thinks it's so hard, it's so hard, it's so hard. It's not that hard. I guess maybe it's because I grew up in a communist country, (laughs) you know, with nothing and no future, no hope, that everything that I've done, I'm like, "Shit, that wasn't that hard." Like-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings4:57

       (laughs)

   11. ETElias Torres4:58

       ... like for example, people at my companies in the past, like, we, we get them gifts, we get them food, we get them, like, free lunch, and they go and complain. They're like, "This coffee's not that great." And I'm like, "It's free. If you don't like it, go buy your own." They complain... See, the things that people complain in the United States are, are like not that hard compared when you li-... I just came back from Cairo last night. It's tough. You see the slums, you see all these areas. It's, it's hard to live in, in, in, in, in countries like that. I'm from Nicaragua, so like, life is not that hard for us in, in, in the United States. You know what I mean?

   12. HSHarry Stebbings5:32

       Have we lost the grit in the US, in the UK, where we have the WeWorks and we have the Nice Cultures?

   13. ETElias Torres5:38

       Yep. I think that's why, that's why immigrants do well in startups, right?

   14. HSHarry Stebbings5:42

       I do wanna go to that. You mentioned that obviously growing up in Nicaragua. I spoke to Pat, my big bro, before this, and when he gives me advice, I've learnt just to take it. Um, he told me I had spent a good amount of time on growing up actually and the move to the US. When and why did you come to the US?

   15. ETElias Torres5:58

       Uh, I came to the US because the home that we lived in was not even ours.... so there was a revolution. You know, people... my mom, we, we lived in somebody else's home because they left because of the revolution in '79.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings6:10

       How old were you?

   17. ETElias Torres6:11

       Uh, uh, uh, I was three in the re- during the revolution, right, uh, in '79. And so, uh, we lived in this home. And then after the, the communism, you know, the communist government toppled, like, then they, people came back and they wanted their property back. And so I had nowhere to live. I was literally homeless. I was just graduating high school. Uh, and luckily, because of my grandmother, she crossed the river, an immigrant into the Unite- United States. After being there for so many years, right, she was able to get us a green card, apply. And it was the perfect timing. We lost our home, the green card came in, we had to come to United States. We had no choice.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings6:49

       What was it like coming in for you, having grown up in Nicaragua?

   19. ETElias Torres6:53

       I was excited. You know, in Nicaragua it was like I could not have... I could never have a car, I could never have a job. I didn't... you know, there was no, no hot dogs, no burgers. You know, you come to United States and you're like... I was, I was so, I was so excited because it was the land of the opportunity, right? I was chasing the American dream. Uh, so I, I could not be happier to give everything I had to that, right?

   20. HSHarry Stebbings7:15

       Do you think it's still the land of opportunity?

   21. ETElias Torres7:17

       Absolutely. It still is, 100%. It is the place where there is just more and more chance for you to accomplish all of your dreams.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings7:27

       And for $5 million even I can buy a green card. (laughs)

   23. ETElias Torres7:31

       I would. (laughs) Yeah.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings7:32

       Honestly, I'm contemplating it. (laughs)

   25. ETElias Torres7:33

       Yeah. It's like, "Why not?"

   26. HSHarry Stebbings7:35

       Uh, how did you find tech for the first time?

   27. ETElias Torres7:37

       Uh, I found tech, um, when, um, I, I lived in LA. I lived in LA with my dad for two years. I never, I never spent time with him except for this time, right? It was a, an emergency. In Nicaragua there was a, um, a, a, a forced draft. You had to go to the... to fight the war. Like, we had a, like, an internal war, civil war. Um, and so my mom called him up and she's like, "You have a dad." And was like, "I'm gonna send you to LA so you don't, you don't get, uh, taken to fight." And so I was like, "I don't wanna go to the mountains to fight, and I get to meet my dad (laughs) , let's go, and I get to go to United States." Uh, and so I met him. Uh, and so I spent there about two years. And, um, he bought, like, a stolen computer, like people came and sold him, you know. And so I... he put it in the garage and, and, uh, and he said, "Go play with it." And so that's... it's like an IBM computer, like, you know, in the '80s. And I would be typing my homework in this printer in WordPerfect and using Lotus 1-2-3. That was the beginning. The, uh, I think that planted the seed that I was just attracted to this device and what it was able to do. I just enjoyed it.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings8:45

       Do you think entrepreneurs who are brought up in wealthy families are advantaged because they have connections, because there is some forms of nepotism sometimes available? Or do you think actually having nothing shows you how bad it can be and how much you want it?

   29. ETElias Torres9:01

       Greed is everywhere, right? It's, it's not distributed only to the people who have nothing. We just get beaten up so much that we, we develop it, uh, in, in, in, in larger quantities. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, my kids are gonna grow up different, right? They're gonna have, uh, ability to work with my, my companies. They're gonna have my network, they have my access, they have my money. Uh, and sometimes... I wrote a post on LinkedIn when I said, "Quit now your company, big company. It's time. I don't... don't worry about that bonus, don't worry about that title, don't worry about that salary." And then my, my daughter's like, "Dad, why are you posting such things? Not everybody has the luxury that you have today." I didn't have the luxury that I have today when I first started, right? I have the right to post that. I'm not making stuff up. And she goes, "Yeah, the problem is me." I can't say those things 'cause I had those all, those things from the beginning.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings9:53

       I speak to many very successful people-
3. 11:34 – 30:43

   Why are Incumbents Slower than Ever

   1. ETElias Torres11:34

   2. HSHarry Stebbings11:34

      L- listen, the best interviewees, or interviewers, sorry, are able to move with schedules and be very plastic around how they take conversations. I wanted to touch that at the end, but dude, you give me like, "Elephants can't dance."

   3. ETElias Torres11:48

      It's like, let's go.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings11:48

      Let's go.

   5. ETElias Torres11:48

      Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings11:49

      Uh, have we not seen bluntly over the last year or two years that elephants can dance? Adobe have moved incredibly fast on product. Uh, Google, um, moving incredibly fast in terms of integration of LLMs and building. Uh, we're seeing the biggest incumbents move at speeds that we've never seen them before. Do you not... how do you think about that?

   7. ETElias Torres12:07

      I completely disagree.... I, I think that this, I think these elephants are just talking. They're singing. Th- they're talking a big game. It's mostly talk. I mean, it's like, Google fucked it up. You know what I mean? It's like... Can I curse here? Is that-

   8. HSHarry Stebbings12:19

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.

   9. ETElias Torres12:19

      Okay, great.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings12:19

       This is Britain. (laughs)

   11. ETElias Torres12:20

       Oh, oh. (laughs) There you go. Bollocks. Uh, and so I, I think that, um-

   12. HSHarry Stebbings12:24

       Bollocks was the first one.

   13. ETElias Torres12:26

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. HSHarry Stebbings12:26

       You get wanker, then you're really British.

   15. ETElias Torres12:28

       Okay, great, great. Uh, we get there. And so I think that, um, I mean everybody, everybody's talking about how Google is struggling. Uh, uh, Google is just, Google just dropped the ball, right? They invented this Transformers paper, and everything they put out doesn't work. Like NotebookLM, the great one, like, it's already dead, right? The project. So i- it's like they're trying so hard but they can't do it. Um, Microsoft Copilot, I, I felt like Microsoft, I was really impressed. I, I felt like Microsoft was moving, uh, they, you know, in- the investing in OpenAI was genius. I mean, Satya is like, as a businessman, like, respect, right? Respect that. Can I do like, uh, uh, like a shot here or something-

   16. HSHarry Stebbings13:07

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

   17. ETElias Torres13:07

       ... like that, right?

   18. HSHarry Stebbings13:07

       Do you want this video-

   19. ETElias Torres13:08

       I would g-

   20. HSHarry Stebbings13:08

       ... as well?

   21. ETElias Torres13:08

       I would love to say, (laughs) and say like, "I always wanted to say that in London." Uh, so I think that, um, Satya is the man, no doubt. Uh, and, and being that early, dropping all that money on OpenAI was genius. Changed the world, right? I mean, that, that, that is r- respect. And they had the advantage to adopt a- all of this early, but Bing, you know, Search, you know, they actually dropped the ball, right? Copilot, everybody was like, they're just ahead making all the money first, uh, because people... The problem is people are, they, they just have so much hard time trusting someone, right? And so they're reaping the benefit of being early, but nobody's using the product, right? It's like, it just doesn't work. It's, uh, you know, it's, um, it's tough. The king is ChatGPT, right? That's the one that everybody's adopting, uh, and using it every day, but that's not the real solution. That's not the future. Uh, Copilot, Cursor are s- second, distant second, right? Uh, but the, the elephants are not dancing. They're trying to dance.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings14:08

       Okay. I mean, I, I've gone-

   23. ETElias Torres14:09

       Would you agree or disagree?

   24. HSHarry Stebbings14:10

       Uh, so I'm just gonna take one by one. Otherwise, I'm not gonna have any coherent structure.

   25. ETElias Torres14:14

       (laughs)

   26. HSHarry Stebbings14:14

       Google, I completely disagree with you. I think the fundamental thing is access to consumers and distribution, and when you look at all the endpoints they have to consumers, is the product there today? No, 100%. But their ability to access billions of people with-

   27. ETElias Torres14:31

       You s- you said, uh, they're moving. I did not argue with distribution. Yes, we're in agreement. Distribution, they win, right? Uh, they, they can. And the other one is they have the points, they have the data too. So, those are great assets that they have. But it's been like three years, it's been like five years since we had GPT.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings14:50

       Totally agree with you there.

   29. ETElias Torres14:51

       So, so is that a fact?

   30. HSHarry Stebbings14:52

       No, I, uh, no, and so I, I completely agree with you there, and I will accept that one. I'm forward-looking, bye. (laughs)
4. 30:43 – 34:01

   Why Was Selling Drift For $1.2BN a Massive Failure

   1. ETElias Torres30:43

   2. HSHarry Stebbings30:43

      What did you not do with product that you wish you had done?

   3. ETElias Torres30:45

      Speed, execution, the timing was off, right? I was so close to the LLMs being there, right? To, to transform like what I'm doing now. So I'm, I'm excited. I'm excited for what I'm doing now, right? I get to start from scratch. And, and that's really good in a way. I, I wouldn't necessarily wanna be transitioning to a, a, a large ship right now. But, uh, um, it was tough. I, I don't, I don't think it was my greatest accomplishment, right? It's like I let people down, I let my customers down. I don't wanna do that again.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings31:15

      Why was it not salvageable? Why was it not a case of, "We can transition this into a public company"?

   5. ETElias Torres31:20

      (sighs) It's the way that we built companies. They're too big, too inefficient, right? Like, to, to be able to make things salvageable, like you said, right? Uh, uh, these big companies that, that are, that are now, right? If they do what Twitter did, if they reduce themselves to 20% and build an amazing product and are willing to break all their pricing models and revenues and change all of that, then they will survive.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings31:42

      Talk to me then about s- the sale process. Was that difficult for you?

   7. ETElias Torres31:47

      I told you that nothing is hard. (laughs)

   8. HSHarry Stebbings31:50

      (laughs)

   9. ETElias Torres31:50

      It, it, it was not difficult. I, I, it's like-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings31:52

       But accepting that-

   11. ETElias Torres31:53

       ... I'm an immigrant. Yeah. I'm just saying, but I'm, I'm just such a realist, right? I, I accept what it is. I don't let my pride try to, you know... I mean, my pride gets the best of me a lot of times. But I'm not going to be... I think that that was the smartest thing I did, right? Is not be emotional about it. A lot of people, uh, uh, even my investors would be like, "Andy, you're worth a billion now. You could be worth two or four." And they multiply my equity times that, and say like, "You know, look at all the other companies that are growing and s-" 'Cause I, I did this in September of 2021, right? And so there's a lot of peers of mine that were like, "4 billion valuation," or stuff like that. And, and so we started a little bit earlier from some of those waves, so they were getting crazy valuations like Hopping, you know, or other companies, right? And so, like, um, Outreach Manni is a good friend of mine, right? He's, he's in London. And so you see all the stuff and that, like, affects your ego. Like, "Why am I not being valued when, when I'm a similar company?" SalesLoft was valued at two, right? And so...

   12. HSHarry Stebbings32:53

       How much did you sell it for?

   13. ETElias Torres32:54

       1.2.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings32:55

       1.2?

   15. ETElias Torres32:56

       Right.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings32:56

       Can I be super blunt? How much did you get take from that?

   17. ETElias Torres32:59

       (laughs) I'm not, I'm not saying that.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings33:00

       (laughs)

   19. ETElias Torres33:00

       I say enough, it changed my life. Fuck you money, for sure.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings33:03

       Okay. So fuck you money. How do you think about that relationship to money?

   21. ETElias Torres33:07

       It is, uh, like I said, it's, it reduces a lot of the physical and material stress. Such a blessing from an immigrant that had nothing, to not worry about like, you know... I, I focus on the small stuff, right? Just get a car whenever you need it, you know, um, do, um, you know, stay at whatever hotel you want, fly to wherever you want, eat wherever you want. That's just like, that's like the basics. You know, it's, it's great not to worry. I believe, uh, a lot in assistants.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings33:34

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ETElias Torres33:34

       You know, eventually we'll have them with AI. Like, you need help. I think people are wasting their time trying to be all frugal or this. I wanna focus my time on the customers, right? And, and my team and my people. I don't wanna do anything else, right? So those are the nice luxuries.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings33:49

       Uh, before we go back to-

   25. ETElias Torres33:50

       By the way, you throw me all these questions that were not on the list. (laughs)

   26. HSHarry Stebbings33:52

       Oh, don't mind. It's cool. Uh, oh, uh, I shouldn't... I always do this, don't I? (laughs) You clearly haven't seen all the shows. Um, oh, we're gonna go to customers, but I do just wanna stay on the hiring. Um,

5. 34:01 – 39:58

   How to Hire F******* Rockstars

   1. HSHarry Stebbings34:01

      is there a process, and has the process changed over time?

   2. ETElias Torres34:05

      Yes, big difference. Um, so I used to be intense. It was a numbers game, right? And we wanted more, more, more, more. And so like, I had to go really fast and I would force people and convince people and, and I would, I would convince more people than I should've. I could convince anyone. I'm, I'm a good recruiter, right? But I realize now that that's not the same, right? Now this time, um, I'm pushing back. More people know me now, more people know my reputation, more people wanna join. Uh, but it's like, it's, it's important to not fall for, for this. There was people that would reverse engineer my process, and they would know how to talk to me in a way that would just touch the right points. Now, doesn't matter what you say to me, I have to reject, reject, reject, push back, push back, push back, right? And so like if you don't, if you don't handle the pushback... Uh, I do a lot of contracting now. You have to work for me part-time. Um, so either you're available or you're not. I, you need to show me your grit. How much work can you do while you're doing something else? I used to hire fast, fire slow-ish, right? Now I'm hire slow, fire fast, right? And so people never fire fast enough. Like, every time I fire someone, right, even though I'm a good firer now, right, it's like, I would always like, everybody knew, right? Ah, it was so hard, and it just became harder and harder. So think about the, the large incumbents, how long it takes them to, to, to fire people.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings35:35

      (sighs)

   4. ETElias Torres35:35

      Exactly. Years. Years, right?

   5. HSHarry Stebbings35:37

      I mean, in, in like Germany, it's almost structurally impossible to fire somebody as well.

   6. ETElias Torres35:40

      Well, that's why Europe... No, no, let's not talk about Europe. We're in Europe.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings35:42

      (laughs)

   8. ETElias Torres35:42

      But in the United St- even in the United States-

   9. HSHarry Stebbings35:44

      It's not like we're in Europe. (laughs)

   10. ETElias Torres35:46

       (laughs) Yeah. But that's true, sorry. We can say anything we want about Europe.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings35:48

       Let's not talk about Europe. (laughs)

   12. ETElias Torres35:49

       Yeah.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings35:50

       We're only sitting in the middle of London.

   14. ETElias Torres35:51

       Exactly. It's, uh... And so what happens is that, um, really is, um, people just need to be more careful. I think my advice I give to early founders is that... (laughs) That's the problem with early founders, right? They have so much more to learn of like, they have all these high hopes for all these people that they hire and don't realize that most likely, they're gonna be let down because it's gonna take a long time to develop that intuition for recruiting. And so now I just like, you know, I had a guy working for me like, you know, tried one week. Then he's like, didn't get anything done in a week. I had a whole bunch of, uh, young kids that I hire out of college and they all started early, right? I hired five kids from Northeastern in one day. Before, all my companies, I've built them on the backs of Northeastern students. They're amazing people. They're the best. I love the university. All my kids are going there.... and so, like, I used to hire one or two every time. My co-founder was Northeastern. He was early in founding engineer at Drift. This time, I saw one, I was like, "Great. Who's your friend? Oh, let me see that GitHub. Oh, who's your other friend? Let's see that GitHub." And so I made five offers. They all started working. Then I hired-

   15. HSHarry Stebbings36:56

       How do you onboard five new people in a day? Wh-

   16. ETElias Torres36:59

       I just, I just tell them, "Come to my house. I have a chef. We cook them lunch. And then we ship all the laptops to the house, and then we just ship code that day."

   17. HSHarry Stebbings37:09

       Wow. And that doesn't cause dysfunction, misalignment when there's only 15 people?

   18. ETElias Torres37:15

       No. That was like, we're like, "Okay, we're gonna do, like, two or three times more than we did last week this week, because these people are here. And whoever doesn't make that, goes."

   19. HSHarry Stebbings37:24

       And they know that coming in, that it's kind of like-

   20. ETElias Torres37:26

       Absolutely. (laughs) Seriously.

   21. HSHarry Stebbings37:29

       (laughs) I, I wanna unpack a couple of elements. How quickly do you know when someone's not good enough?

   22. ETElias Torres37:34

       In reality, most people should know, like, within the first week or two. It's just, they just reject those, those signals.

   23. HSHarry Stebbings37:39

       Can you get rid of someone after a week or two without it-

   24. ETElias Torres37:41

       You should.

   25. HSHarry Stebbings37:42

       You should?

   26. ETElias Torres37:42

       Like, I'm getting rid of people during the interview process in the first week or two weeks, uh, because they're interviewing, but-

   27. HSHarry Stebbings37:48

       Well, the hard thing for people often is they hire someone. Two weeks in, they're like, "They're not good enough. But it looks so bad if I get rid of them after two weeks. I mean-"

   28. ETElias Torres37:55

       Ego.

   29. HSHarry Stebbings37:55

       "... I've barely given them a chance."

   30. ETElias Torres37:56

       Ego, right? And so they, those people that are making those decisions are not changing their process. They either have to do more research, more interviewing, more testing, or finding the right talent, or doing the right reference checks, right? Or they need to be willing to do that, or be more upfront. And that's why I, I tell people, "I'll pay you a contract, uh, an hourly rate. Just work." And, and I, and I let them be, right? Show me what you got.
6. 39:58 – 52:33

   The Biggest Mistakes Founders Make in Hiring

   1. ETElias Torres39:58

      of the best.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings39:58

      When you've made mis-hires, what did you not see that you wish you'd seen?

   3. ETElias Torres40:03

      The biggest failure in the mis-hires was myself. I saw it, but maybe I was desperate. I needed people. I needed to build things. You know, I needed help. And I convinced myself that it was gonna be okay.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings40:19

      A lot of SaaS founders will listen to this and go, "I, I get it, Elias, but you know what? I need some fucking sales reps."

   5. ETElias Torres40:25

      I know, I know. That doesn't-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings40:26

      "And I'm gonna, I need to hit my numbers, and my, uh, this VC's telling me that I need this, and I need to hit the quarter. So like, they're good enough, but are they perfect?" What do you say to them in that position?

   7. ETElias Torres40:37

      I'm saying, "I've been there. I hear you. I feel you. I've done that mistake, right? Don't do it. It, it, it is not worth it." And then I tell them... You know, I invest ƒ2000000 in everything, right? So I, I... And then, you know, founders come to me for advice, and I tell them, "Don't do it. It's the wrong person." And then when they hear my... I hate giving advice, right? Be- I don't even... "Don't..."

   8. HSHarry Stebbings40:59

      Well, other than me, on a podcast. (laughs)

   9. ETElias Torres40:59

      Anyone listening to this... (laughs) Yeah. (laughs) It's... Whatever I'm saying, don't listen to it, right? But it's like... They're like... I tell them, "Don't hire that person." And they're like, "No, no, but I need to hire this person." And so I just see people living this lie, right? That they're, like, convinced themselves they're gonna still do it, and then they hire this person, and they keep them for two years. You know, people that I let go, right? People that I made a mistake on, uh, and then they go, someone else takes them, and they just... The whole, the whole industry just keeps taking these people over and over, and I'm like-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings41:26

       It's unbelievable. They go, "Oh, well, they worked at Drift before, so it must be good."

   11. ETElias Torres41:28

       Right. But nobody says this on a podcast. No, exactly.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings41:30

       And I say, "Do you reference?" (laughs)

   13. ETElias Torres41:31

       Do you ever call me? Call me, right? If you call me, you'll hear the truth, 'cause I don't wanna lie to a founder, right? But then people do it. I'm just saying this is how the industry works, but here I- I'm saying here the truth.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings41:42

       So, so one of the things I hate when I look at CVs/LinkedIns is bounces, I call them, which is like two years Drift, two years HubSpot, two years, two years, two years. It's like-

   15. ETElias Torres41:50

       At, at least two years is better than, like, a year.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings41:53

       Uh, for-

   17. ETElias Torres41:53

       People are hiring people that are bouncing every year.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings41:55

       For you Americans are incredibly promiscuous when it comes to jobs. Uh, but, like, do you agree with me in terms of hating that bounce, bounce, bounce?

   19. ETElias Torres42:03

       1000%.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings42:03

       And anything else that's a real red flag when you're looking it at people's tracks?

   21. ETElias Torres42:07

       Everything is a red flag. If you stay there for a long time, it's a red flag too.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings42:11

       Why?

   23. ETElias Torres42:12

       What's your slope in there?

   24. HSHarry Stebbings42:14

       Well, I mean, you can see if there's title acceleration.

   25. ETElias Torres42:16

       Exactly. That's what I'm saying, but, but, I mean, but even title acceleration doesn't mean anything. It's a... That's why you have to probe deep when you're interviewing. What did you do?

   26. HSHarry Stebbings42:25

       I always find great people use data. (laughs)

   27. ETElias Torres42:27

       Yeah.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings42:27

       Not great people use stories. (laughs)

   29. ETElias Torres42:29

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   30. HSHarry Stebbings42:30

       Um, you said title acceleration doesn't mean much. I saw on your Twitter that you're not a fan of titles, and you think titles will be removed.
7. 52:33 – 1:07:27

   Everything You Think You Know About Working Parents is Wrong

   1. HSHarry Stebbings52:33

   2. ETElias Torres52:33

      (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings52:33

      Why do you think it's so important to have kids early?

   4. ETElias Torres52:35

      I, I think... Look, when I was growing up, everybody was like, "We have too many humans in the planet," right?

   5. HSHarry Stebbings52:41

      Yeah, I remember this.

   6. ETElias Torres52:42

      Oh, yeah.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings52:42

      "Global population will be 32 billion."

   8. ETElias Torres52:44

      Oh. (laughs)

   9. HSHarry Stebbings52:44

      "Oh my God."

   10. ETElias Torres52:45

       And now the problem is the reverse. We no- we don't, we don't have children. Like, societies are going to collapse. I mean, that's what we think, right? Uh, unless I've been misinformed. And so I, I just think that, you know, we have Bryan Johnson trying to, like, uh, uh, stretch, you know, longevity and things like that. But I don't think we're f- we're far away from figuring that out, I think. We're farther away to figure out how we can have healthy babies at a later age. So I think that the best time to have children is when we're younger, unless we have unlimited resources, right? But even then, your health, your ability is... We, we, we have improved the possibility of having children with IVF and those things, but I've heard that the journey on that is really hard. It's really difficult. Really long, right? And so I would say that I was very fortunate. I met my wife when I was 17. Uh, we had our first child at, I was 27. I have three kids. They're, like, 18, 19, and 21. They're wonderful. We just went to Cairo together. We're, like, hanging. The- they're, they're, it's my squad, right? They're, they're my, they're my, they're my team. And so what happens is that they're like, "Can we go to Amsterdam now, you know, this week?" I'm like, "No, I got to work." (laughs) It's... So you guys can go (laughs) have fun. Uh, and so I think that, uh, I'm, I was, I'm so blessed, right? Because most people think it's one or the other, but in reality you can do both. It's not gonna be pretty. Uh, i- i- it's, it's gonna be ugly. But while everybody was ha-

   11. HSHarry Stebbings54:10

       How can you do both? I mean, honestly, like, I, I, I-

   12. ETElias Torres54:11

       I did it. I mean, my, my, my wife is incredible. She was at home. We had these kids, but I would work all day at IBM, and I would go home, and it was like, dinner time, bathing, uh, and, like, put them to bed, then doing the dishes. Just exhausting. No sleep, uh, commute, no money, no help at home. We're far away from our family. It was horrible.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings54:33

       But I, but I think entrepreneurs are like athletes. This sounds awful and arrogant, and so I might have to edit this out, but, like, I have a very honed life. It's incredibly selfish.

   14. ETElias Torres54:42

       Yes.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings54:42

       Everything that I do is so that I can perform better and be the best that I can be in different respects. When you have the kids and the wife-... suddenly, you are no longer the most important thing.

   16. ETElias Torres54:55

       Oh.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings54:55

       And that, that sleep schedule goes to shit.

   18. ETElias Torres54:57

       Oh.

   19. HSHarry Stebbings54:58

       And your ability to inspire in that meeting is completely off. Your ability in fundraising meeting, it's off, you're not performing at peak. And-

   20. ETElias Torres55:05

       But I guess it's just the, the, the, it's just we have different iss- diff- different definitions of peak. Because I was able to do all that. I raised hundreds of millions of dollars going through all that stuff, right? You have three kids at home that they just don't take a break, they don't take naps, and you're just like, "I am exhausted. It's Sunday afternoon, can I take a nap?" You know what I mean? It's sort of like, you can't, right? It, it's so, it's like, it was horrible. And everybody would be talking to me in my younger days, they'd be like, "W- what'd you do this weekend?" And I hated that question, you know, in IBM, right?

   21. HSHarry Stebbings55:36

       Why? (laughs)

   22. ETElias Torres55:37

       Because they were like, "Oh, I went to Egypt for the weekend," right? And I'd be like, "What'd you do?" They're like, "I, I, well, I spent all day on dealing with outages at, uh, you know, from the company, from the startup." And then, m- you know, my wife would be like, "Saturday, like let's go out, let's get out of the house," and I'd be like, "Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll be done coding this feature that I'm finally without interruptions by noon, and then we'll take the kids off." And it'd be 3:00 PM and I would still be coding, right? And, and, and I would, we would go to the beach and I would carry my laptop, and David would be like, "Buy me like a modem or something." It's like, I need to respond, and if there's an outage, who else is gonna do it but me? And so my life sucked, right? I never traveled, I never did anything but work and the kids and the family, right? I traded it off. Now, I get to go wherever I want, right? But, uh, unfortunately, that I was able to build a company, be successful, and have my children, I'm more than blessed, I'm more than grateful. I can die happy today, right? Other people, other friends that they, they either were successful or they had family and now they wanna go start their next journey in their lives, right? So I was able to do both. But regardless, when you have everything, when you have money, when you have all these things, if you get to a later age and you don't have kids, not that everybody should, and know that I'm sure people are gonna judge me, "Look, what if I don't wanna have kids? Respect me." I'm fine, but the reality is I see like we want something more than just material things. And, and, and having a family is, is a great thing.

   23. HSHarry Stebbings57:06

       I totally agree with you. I've just become an uncle for the first time, and it's, it's, it's-

   24. ETElias Torres57:09

       I've seen your pictures, you're getting soft, you're getting soft.

   25. HSHarry Stebbings57:11

       ... so, I, I do, I love this, a beautiful little girl. Um, my question to you is, your wife is the first woman that you met in America, I think, yeah? Like when you were 19, okay.

   26. ETElias Torres57:21

       17.

   27. HSHarry Stebbings57:22

       17. After so many years of amazing marriage, what would be your biggest piece of advice to someone listening on how to sustain an amazing marriage?

   28. ETElias Torres57:31

       She's always right. (laughs) .

   29. HSHarry Stebbings57:33

       (laughs) .

   30. ETElias Torres57:33

       You see? It's like I just, I can't get my wife to apologize anything, no matter how mo- right. I, I, I think I'm right at work all the time, but not at home. And so, I don't know, it's just the first thing that came to my mind. You know, uh, we always joke about that. But i- it's really about that selfishness, right? Is that you have to realize that it's not about you, or is about just, you know, I think social media has ruined us of thinking what a perfect, most of us, what you see on social media is fake.
8. 1:07:27 – 1:11:12

   Quickfire

   1. ETElias Torres1:07:27

      time.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:27

      (laughs) I wanna do a quick ............................ I say a short statement. Let's start with, what do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

   3. ETElias Torres1:07:35

      That being direct is better.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:37

      People disagree with that?

   5. ETElias Torres1:07:38

      Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:39

      People think that being indirect is better?

   7. ETElias Torres1:07:41

      In action.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:42

      (laughs) You can buy and hold one public stock for the next 10 years.

   9. ETElias Torres1:07:48

      I'm not a good investor. I don't know. (laughs)

   10. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:50

       Come on.

   11. ETElias Torres1:07:51

       I'm, I'm scared of the giants that are not gonna last, but, uh, NVIDIA, I think, compute is gonna, we're thirsty for compute.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:57

       Well, you could've said Klaviyo. That was a mistake. (laughs)

   13. ETElias Torres1:08:00

       It's tough. It's tough.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:01

       Uh, what would you do if you knew you could not fail?

   15. ETElias Torres1:08:04

       Educate more people in the world.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:06

       Hmm. Love that one. I was not expecting that. Um, how do you have such great skin? Julian Beck asks this one.

   17. ETElias Torres1:08:14

       (laughs)

   18. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:15

       He was like, "Ask him about his facial routine. Ask him about his facial routine."

   19. ETElias Torres1:08:18

       Oh, my blessing.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:19

       You do look very young.

   21. ETElias Torres1:08:20

       I, I think it's the... Thank you. Thank you. Um, I think that, um, it's the Latino genes. I'm, I, I, I thank the genes. I'm, I'm grateful for them.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:28

       Huh. Your Botox doctor told me a lot. (laughs)

   23. ETElias Torres1:08:30

       No, no. No Botox, no nothing here. This is... I don't even wash my face.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:34

       Uh, what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

   25. ETElias Torres1:08:37

       I didn't think I was gonna start a VC backed company. I don't know. I, I, I, I didn't know what was the right idea. I didn't know that... So I, I changed my mind around. This is the best thing I could ever be doing.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:50

       What about the way that your mother brought you up have you decided to do differently with your children?

   27. ETElias Torres1:08:55

       I'm letting them do whatever they want, right? And so I'm, I'm, I'm freeing them from my pressure of, like, to be me. They're kinda being me in a way. It's back to selling and relationships. I'm, I'm letting them be. If they don't wanna go to school, they don't wanna do their homework, I don't care. It's their problem. I'm happy, I'm successful, I'm rich. It's, it's up to them, right?

   28. HSHarry Stebbings1:09:17

       Does money make you happy?

   29. ETElias Torres1:09:19

       Uh, no. But it, it definitely makes things easier.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings1:09:23

       What concerns you most in the world today?

Episode duration: 1:11:34