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Mikey Shulman, CEO @Suno: The Future of Music, What is Gonna Happen? | E1244

Mikey Shulman is the Co-Founder and CEO of Suno, the leading music AI company. Suno lets everyone make and share music. Mikey has raised over $125M for the company from the likes of Lightspeed, Founder Collective, Matrix and Nat Friedman and Daniel Gross. Prior to founding Suno, Mikey was the first machine learning engineer and head of machine learning at Kensho technologies, which was acquired by S&P Global for over $500 million. ---------------------------------------------- Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:42) What is Suno? (03:06) Why Should Music Resemble Video Games? (04:10) Are Higher Prices for Better Models Just Temporary? (06:24) Why Is Quantum Computing Amazing but Not Worth Pursuing? (08:31) Why Do Physicists and Economists Excel in Machine Learning? (09:40) How Do You Compete for Talent Against AI Giants? (13:32) What Defines a Successful User in Suno? (19:45) How Will AI Startups and Incumbents Resolve Conflicts? (22:37) How the Future of Music Looks Like? (26:49) Can Artists Have Personalized AI Models for Their Music? (33:24) How Will Music Discovery Evolve with Infinite Supply? (34:12) Spotify, TikTok & YouTube Music (36:26) What Does Mikey Regret Not Doing? (37:59) What is Great UI for Mikey? (38:44) How Important Are Prompt Guides for AI? (42:43) Scaling Revenue Beyond Other Generative AI Models (45:40) Should We Embrace or Fear Rapid Change? (51:18) The Balance Knowing When to Start and When to Stop? (53:12) Quick-Fire Round ----------------------------------------------- In Today’s Episode with Mikey Shulman: 1. The Future of Models: - Who wins the future of models? Anthropic, OpenAI or X? - Will we live in a world of many smaller models? When does it make sense for specialised vs generalised models? - Does Mikey believe we will continue to see the benefits of scaling laws? 2. The Future of UI and Consumer Apps: - Why does Mikey believe that OpenAI did AI consumer companies a massive disservice? - Why does Mikey believe consumers will not choose their model or pay for a superior model in the future? - Why does Mikey believe that good taste is more important than good skills? - Why does Mikey argue physicists and economists make the best ML engineers? 3. The Future of Music: - What is going on with Suno’s lawsuit against some of the biggest labels in music? - How does Mikey see the future of music discovery? - How does Mikey see the battle between Spotify and YouTube playing out? - How does Mikey see the battle between TikTok and Spotify playing out? ----------------------------------------------- Subscribe on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3j2KMcZTtgTNBKwtZBMHvl?si=85bc9196860e4466 Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-twenty-minute-vc-20vc-venture-capital-startup/id958230465 Follow Harry Stebbings on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HarryStebbings Follow Mikey Shulman on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MikeyShulman Follow 20VC on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/20vchq Follow 20VC on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@20vc_tok Visit our Website: https://www.20vc.com Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://www.thetwentyminutevc.com/contact ----------------------------------------------- #20vc #harrystebbings #mikeshulman #suno #founder #venturecapital #startups #ai #musicindustry #spotify #tiktok #youtubemusic #arianagrande

Mikey ShulmanguestHarry Stebbingshost
Jan 9, 20251h 0mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Suno CEO Predicts Interactive, AI-Powered Music Will Eclipse Streaming

  1. Mikey Shulman, CEO of Suno, explains how the company aims to transform music from a passive listening activity into an interactive, game-like experience where everyone can be a creator. He argues that in music, scale alone won’t solve AI quality because taste is subjective, so the real challenge is aligning models to human preferences and building great products, not just bigger models.
  2. Shulman discusses Suno’s rapid move from an enterprise audio tool to a consumer music creation platform, its decision to charge from day one, and how business model, UX, and taste-alignment—not model specs—will define winners. He also addresses the RIAA lawsuit, data training norms, and why collaboration with incumbents would unlock a much larger music ecosystem.
  3. Looking ahead, he outlines possible good and bad futures for AI music: from participatory, social, creator-centric worlds with new monetization models, to dystopian hyper-personalized or fully impersonated music streams that cut artists out. Throughout, he emphasizes judgment, product focus, and building a bigger overall “pie” for music rather than fighting over today’s limited streaming economics.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Music AI is a product and taste problem, not just a scaling problem.

Unlike text, music quality is driven by subjective taste, so simply building larger models is insufficient; Suno focuses on small transformer models, better audio representations, and techniques like RLHF-style alignment to human preferences.

Charging from day one gave Suno both validation and critical product data.

Introducing a paywall early proved users valued the product and created clear segmentation—who pays, who hits the paywall and doesn’t—which informs product decisions and interviews far better than a fully free model would.

UI and time-to-wow are central to adoption of generative tools.

Suno learned that a dedicated web app massively outperformed a Discord-only interface and that first-session experience (e.g., generating a great track in ~8 seconds) strongly correlates with conversion and retention.

Future AI products will abstract away models; users will buy experiences, not versions.

Shulman predicts there will be a “last model release” after which users no longer track model versions or specs—only product releases and whether the experience makes them feel something.

The most valuable future of music is broader participation, not just cheaper content.

While AI increases supply and lowers the average value per track, Suno’s bet is that enabling billions to create, remix, and socially engage with music will grow the overall economic and cultural value of the music ecosystem.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

We’re not making music, we’re making musicians.

Mikey Shulman

At some point there will be a last model release, and everything else is just product releases.

Mikey Shulman

OpenAI is amazing. They did every AI company a huge disservice because everybody thinks that just an empty textbox is now the right interface. And it is for ChatGPT and it is incorrect for basically everything else.

Mikey Shulman

It seems crazy that music should not be as engaging as Fortnite.

Mikey Shulman

We can build a good future of music with AI, and we can build a bad future of music with AI, or we can sit back and let someone else do it.

Mikey Shulman

Suno’s mission: from passive listening to interactive music creationTechnical and product approach to AI music (small models, audio tokenization, taste alignment)Business strategy: pricing, charging from day one, GPU costs, and revenue focusLegal and industry dynamics: copyright training data, RIAA lawsuit, and working with incumbentsThe future structure of the music industry and new creator monetization modelsUser experience, UI, and the limits of prompt-based interfacesBroader AI themes: inevitability, talent, quantum computing, and societal impacts

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