Snap's VP of Product Jack Brody: The Future of AR; Snap Glasses; Evan Spiegel's Product Mind | E1006

1. 0:00 – 2:38

   Who is Jack Brody?

   1. JBJack Brody0:00

      What we try to focus on are universal things, things that no matter where you are in the world, this is something that is going to be valuable. (instrumental music)

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:08

      Jack, I am so excited for this. I know it is your first podcast. Welcome to the show, my friend.

   3. JBJack Brody0:14

      Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:16

      I wanna start with your entry into the world of design. How did you make your way into the world of design first, Jack?

   5. JBJack Brody0:23

      Yeah, well, I'll take you way back for this one because it really is kind of a- a life story more than anything. Finding myself and finding design, I think, kind of went hand-in-hand. But, you know, if I go back to just really, you know, like elementary school, middle school, high school and just kind of my academic experience, I found that, you know, I was always kind of okay at a lot of things, right? I- I could- I could do fine in every subject, but I never felt like I truly excelled in one subject over others. And I actually had this, like, this envy for those that did, you know, the- the- the kids that were extremely good at math or brilliant writers or, you know, loved science, whatever it was. It just, I was envious of it because it seemed like their- their path was charted for them. They knew what they wanted to do, they knew what they were great at, you know, they- they could go major in that thing in college, they could go do that thing for the rest of their career. And I just felt like, "Uh, you know, I kind of like a lot of these things. I'm okay at many of them, but I don't have one thing that I'm just great at." And so when I went to college, you know, I- I- I actually didn't really know what I was gonna major in and I stumbled upon product design, and I took this introductory class in product design and I very quickly realized that the exciting thing about design was that it was so interdisciplinary. What makes you a good designer is being able to kind of dip your toes into a lot of different areas and then bring them together and synthesize them into- into something different, something new. And so I kind of went through this journey and, you know, the thing that I had seen as a weakness for, you know, basically my entire time through- through school, I started to see as a strength, and that was super empowering for me and, you know, it just made me fall in love with design. And, you know, I- I waffled on that a little bit, you know, I ended up getting a master's in mechanical engineering because I felt like design was too broad and I needed some technical depth, but that was really what- what, you know, that was the final nail on the coffin because I quickly realized I was a shitty engineer, but I was a pretty good designer. And so why try to be something I'm not?

   6. HSHarry Stebbings2:34

      Okay, so you realize then you're a pretty good designer and you have this passion and love for

2. 2:38 – 6:30

   How Even Spiegel Hired Jack

   1. HSHarry Stebbings2:38

      product design. How does Snap come about? I heard this was a fun story. How did the Snap start happen?

   2. JBJack Brody2:45

      Yeah, so I mean, you know, the pursuing the master's is a good segue because I was- I was in the middle of my master's, I was actually going to need, you know, one summer and then- and then finish my master's program in the fall. But, um, in the course of that, I- I went and I interviewed at- at Snap, and I actually interviewed for an internship role. I was gonna fill that summer between, you know, starting and finishing my master's, uh, with an internship. And, you know, at the time when I was interviewing, uh, it was the- the... I think it was December of 2013 and so Snap was still a small company. There was probably about 25 people when I was interviewing. I flew down to LA, I went on a walk on- on, you know, (laughs) along Venice Beach with Evan and, um, through the course of the interview he basically convinced me that I would not want to go back to school if I started at Snap. And, you know, the reason I was talking to Snap in the first place was because I saw that they were doing something special, you know? They had recently turned down a major acquisition offer and, uh, that made me think, "They're, they have a vision, right?" They... If you're turning down billions of dollars, it's because you know what you want to do. You have a big vision and you're going and you're pursuing it, and that really drew me to it. And over the course of this interview, Evan basically convinced me that I wasn't gonna wanna go back to school after I started at Snap. Uh, so, you know, I didn't tell him in that moment that my mind had been changed and, you know, I just was excited to- to get the offer as an intern. But over the course of the next quarter, I accelerated my program so that I could actually jam enough classes in that I could graduate by the time I started as an intern. And so on day one, I walk in through the doors and within an hour, you know, I'm sitting down with Evan and with a few other people who had started that day and he's asked, you know, he's like, "Hey, how you doing?" And I'm like, "Oh, I'm good. You know, just graduated a few weeks ago. Excited to jump in." He's like, "You just graduated?" He's like, "Why are you an intern?" (laughs) I was like, "Well, I didn't realize I was gonna graduate by this time." He's like, "Well, do you want to be full-time?" I said yes. And so I was an intern for about an hour and I think I, you know... I know for a fact I hold the shortest internship, uh, ever in Snap history and that might extend well beyond into- into tech history of some sorts. But, you know, I'm very grateful for Evan taking that- that, you know, that chance on me and pretty fun story.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings5:00

      I mean, clearly he was right to take that bet. (laughs) Um, my- my question to you is, I'm sorry this is off schedule, but, you know, we- we always hear about Ev's kind of product chops being so stellar and so world-class. You've seen it now over, gosh, what is that, nine years? What makes Abs so great at product, one, and how's his approach to product changed over nine years?

   4. JBJack Brody5:22

      Yeah, it's a really great question and, you know, I think a lot of what you'll hear from me today, (laughs) you know, is an articulation of things that I've- I've learned, you know, from working closely with Evan and- and seeing the way he operates and, you know, I think one of the things that really sets Evan apart is his willingness and- and it's not just a willingness, it's his desire to do things differently. He will not just take something as the right way because it's the way it's always been done. He questions everything and he always pushes for something different. And the reality is if you're pushing for something different, that's the only way you can ever do something better. And so, you know, that's, I think, really been the- the-... cultural impetus for all of the innovation that's come out of Snap is just this willingness (laughs) ... you know, from Evan at the top and then culturally ingrained throughout the, the, the business and, and the company to just push for something beyond, something different than the way it's always been done.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings6:19

      Can I ask you... I spoke to Jeremy on your team before the show, and it's so funny you say that. He said that one of your superpowers is questioning everything, questioning conventions the way that it is now. My question

3. 6:30 – 12:50

   How To Challenge Conventions

   1. HSHarry Stebbings6:30

      to you is, how do you think about questioning conventions that are conventions for a reason? It's, it's that way because it is best that way versus it's that way 'cause it's always been that way.

   2. JBJack Brody6:41

      Yep. Therein lies the challenge. I mean, that, that's the challenge of, of product and design (laughs) and, and prioritization and operating, you know, in, in, in a company is there's always going to be this nuance, and there's gonna be a level of instincts and intuition you have to apply to this. But I think when it comes to questioning convention, like, the most important thing to just set the stage is to help people understand why it's so important to question conventions in the first place, right? And, and ultimately, it comes back to this idea that if you're doing things the way things have always been done, especially as, you know, the underdog in an industry with giant incumbents, you're always going to be playing catch-up. The only way to win is to try to do something differently. Now, there's always risk involved in that. And so you have to try to question these conventions quickly. You have to try to do them in, in, in the way that you can validate or invalidate whether or not that convention is the right one as fast as you possibly can. And no, you know, some conventions aren't worth questioning, you're right. You know, I think there are certain things where you just take it as truth, right? Like, I think we can, we can safely say that, um, you know, having a CEO of an organization, at least for Snap, it's the right thing to do. We don't need to question that. We don't need to try a two-in-the-box or anything wild. We've got a good thing going, and, and we're gonna stick to it. But when it comes to the product and when it comes to the way, you know, these systems are built and the things that people like, I think you have to, you have to start from a position of really being (laughs) willing to question everything. And the way you de-risk that is making sure that you can, you know, answer that question as to whether or not that convention is correct or not as quickly as possible. And if you start there and then you apply some instincts around, you know, those conventions that really we don't need to waste our time questioning it, only then can you really create that culture where you innovate long term.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings8:29

      (laughs) I told you don't look at the schedule 'cause it's complete bullshit.

   4. JBJack Brody8:32

      (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings8:33

      Um, how do you reduce that decision-making cycle? Is it through testing markets like Australia and getting quick feedback before deploying to major markets? How do you shorten that decision-making timeline and make it as comprehensive as possible where you get enough data but also not too long where something bad can persist for too long?

   6. JBJack Brody8:53

      Yeah, you know, I mean, I think it comes down to really defining what level of fidelity you need in order to answer that question. Ultimately, what you're doing is you're building a prototype. You're doing a prototype to test the hypothesis, to see if, you know, is this thing the right thing for us to do? And prototype is a really broad term, and there's so many different ways to build a prototype. Yes, you can build the production code. You can test it, you know, in, in a market like Australia and see how it's changing, you know, the metrics, how people are, are using it. You can also, you know, design a mock and have people look at it and get a sense of, you know, whether or not that thing feels right. You can build that in prototyping tools that are available today so that you can try it internally. That's probably our most active use of a prototype, is, you know, our design team or design engineers will come together, come up with a concept. They'll build it in a way that we could never ship it, but they can get it done in, you know, a few hours rather than a few months, and we'll try it internally. And, you know, I think we've brought people in who have really strong product sense, really great intuition, intuition that's been informed over hundreds and hundreds of experiments over a long period of time, and you use that to validate that. So again, there's, there's a spectrum there. Sometimes you're giving it to, you know, real customers and, and you're listening to their feedback. Sometime you're just toying with it internally.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings10:11

      When I think about product innovation, I think about Snap and Apple together in the same realm, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna expand on that. You both have the unique ability to make me hate your products for the first hour when I try the new feature, and a week later, I think, "Why did I ever use the home button on an iPhone before when I can simply swipe up?" But I hated losing my home button. My question to you is, when change happens, consumers hate it, whether it's good or bad, but how do you know whether it's good change with delayed data or bad change and they just hate it?

   8. JBJack Brody10:48

      Yeah, it's a, it, it's a really good question. Right, consumers do generally hate change. It's hard, right? You have to change your habits. You have to do something. There's friction involved in, in changing the way that you use something. And, you know, for the most part, if you're not the one working at the company really thinking about the long-term strategy in the details making these decisions and it's just, you know, thrown at you, that can be a little bit disconcerting. And, and so you have to choose as an organization. Do you want your customers to hate the products you ship every time you do something dr- drastically different, or do you want the company to die (laughs) , right? That's the choice you have in front of you. And so we always choose the former. Now, I think to, to answer your question directly, right, how do you know? And again, I think it comes back to being able to use these things internally and sit with them for a while, right? That can give you a level of confidence that, hey, you know, we didn't like this thing at first either. It was hard to get used to. We had to change our habit. You know, this button went to the other side, whatever it might be. But we've been sitting with it for weeks, and we understand that, you know, our curve of frustration versus value-add has, has really changed over time. And so we can expect we'll see the same thing out of the community. Now, of course, you can also track these through tests with, you know-... you know, an A/B test that you, you let run for, for more than just a week. You can let it run for months if you need to. And based on the level of risk, sometimes that's the right thing to do. But I think the other layer to this is your level of conviction, right? You have to understand how much pain are we willing to take in order to get to where we want to go. And the answer to that question is all about how much conviction you have in where you want to go. If you have a huge amount of conviction, you're willing to take a lot of pain. If you don't have that much conviction, you need to be a little bit more thoughtful with the way you roll things out and the feedback you get around it. And you gotta let that inform all the decisions you make until you found that thing that has an enormous amount of conviction.

4. 12:50 – 19:24

   Best and Worst Product Decisions at Snap

   1. HSHarry Stebbings12:50

      I'm too interested. Um, can you take me through product features that you released and customers hated, but then turned into great features and they loved over time and then one that you released, they hated and it was because it was shit? (laughs)

   2. JBJack Brody13:06

      Yeah, that's great. I mean, I have so many examples of the former. I mean, you know, I think the most famous example here is definitely Stories. You know, when Stories released, it, it wasn't immediate exis- you know, overnight success. This is something that took months for, um, the community to adopt and, and start to use and kind of get that flywheel, you know, moving and get people comfortable with what this new thing was. Um, but it obviously got there and it got there, you know, in a really meaningful way and I think in many ways it's, it's changed the industry. So, you know, I think that is the classic example. You know, I think another one is the Snap Map, which, you know, this was one where we had seen some emerging behaviors on the platform that really led us to believe that this would be very valuable. We knew a couple things that were unique about our platform. You know, we knew that this was a close friend platform, right? This is a place where the people you friend are actually the people you know in real life. It's the people you trust, it's the people you have- you confide in, right? This is, this is your, this is your clique. It's your close friends. And so that allows us to do some things that might be more sensitive in broader social graphs, like location sharing. At the same time, you know, it is something that can make people uncomfortable. And so when we rolled out the Snap Map, a lot of people were like, "This is an invasion of privacy." But the reality is by default you're not sharing your location. There's a flow where you have to say, "I want to share my location," and then you're gonna select the friends that you're comfortable sharing it with. And we made sure that that, you know, flow was crystal clear and it was something that you're opting in every step of the way. And so I think it took a little while for folks to get comfortable, but at the end of the day they realized that this is an opportunity to see exactly, you know, where their friend is when they need them. And we s- again, you know, this was really inspired by an emerging behavior which was people are posting to their story with a geofilter which kind of tagged their location and they'd, you know, add a caption like, "Hit me up," which basically meant, "I'm at this location. Come hang out." And when their friend would arrive, they'd actually delete that snap from their story. So that indicated to us that there was, you know, there was a problem here that our community was finding it difficult to, to meet up with friends and we could make that easier. Okay, I might have gotten way off the question there, but No, no, no, no. That was perfect. Before we move to the one that failed, I'm fascinated. You mentioned Stories there. I obviously had Alex on from Meta and him and Kevin Wilde were bo- both like, "Yeah, it was a rip-off like when we did it." How do you guys feel and respond when you see a rip-off of a product that you created? I'm just interested. Yeah, no, it's a- it, it's a great question. I mean, I think that we've quickly become very comfortable with it and we've recognized that this is going to be a reality. And I think more than anything find it exceptionally motivating because not only does it validate all the work that you've done, but it also, you know, lights a fire under your ass to go continue innovating. Every single time we do something that then- that is then adopted across other platforms, you know, we recognize that, you know, we've hit something, right? Something within humanity that resonated. And that's exciting, but it also, you know, makes you realize that you have to keep doing that over and over again. I think it's also helped us think about, you know, what are the things that we're really uniquely positioned to do? What are the things that, that really differentiate our platform? And, you know, while Stories has, you know, been successful on other platforms, the way stories are used on Snapchat is still fundamentally different. It's still more raw, authentic, in the moment content. There's less of this need to be, you know, pretty or perfect. And, you know, that makes the ethos of the platform fundamentally different and that's because the way people use the platform is different from what they expect from, you know, other platforms. So I think we're, we're always looking to lean into those unique advantages. The Snap Map's a perfect example of that, right? The close friend graph makes us uniquely positioned to put something out in the world that might be a little bit more sensitive to share and you're only comfortable sharing it with your close friends.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings17:14

      Those were things that worked o- over time and we saw that work. What was just like it was what, what we call a smelly fish in the UK, which is like, "Mm-mm," it didn't work and it continued to not work?

   4. JBJack Brody17:25

      Yeah, you know, there are plenty of, of products and features. I find them a little bit less memorable for many reasons because they're not something we're thinking about every single day and iterating on, right? And, and, you know, what I've found too is that the process that, that we use, you know, it, it, it leads to pretty high success rate and, and that's because ultimately we are weeding out hundreds of ideas before they go out the door or before they're, they're shipped to 100%. Now there are things that we have, I think, you know, pushed for really hard and ultimately had to wind down. You know, this, this last year we had to, to wind down our games effort. You know, we had a, we had a product that was built on the fact that our community was spending so much time...... in the same chat talking with one another. You know, a lot of these conversations are synchronous, in real time. That's the way people are spending time on Snapchat. And a lot of that time is also spent in video calls and calling. And so we thought there was an exciting opportunity to, to build something that would be incremental to that experience and, and, and make it easier to connect and more fun to connect and, and so we kind of developed this, this game platform. And, uh, we saw some really exciting signs of success and I think ultimately, you know, what we've experienced, just given the environment we've been in over the last year, you have to wind down certain things in order to focus on the things that have the biggest opportunity. And it's not always because those things don't have a path to success, but sometimes it's because that path to success is too long or it's too distracting from the thing that's going to be most important long term.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings19:01

      I essentially had Toby on the show from sh- Shopify and he said actually the best companies are defined by constraints. That said, constraints can be fucking annoying.

   6. JBJack Brody19:10

      (laughs)

   7. HSHarry Stebbings19:11

      (laughs) Uh, but, yes, I totally get you. Uh, before we dive into the actual workings, I, I am intrigued and a horrible question, so forgive me for it. But when we think about it, we've spoken about kind of different testing mechanisms, we've spoken about kind of

5. 19:24 – 20:20

   Product: Art or Science?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings19:24

      ideation processes. Is product more art than science and where do you sit on this debate?

   2. JBJack Brody19:30

      Yeah, you know, I, I love this question because think- you kind of have to get one thing out of the way which is product can't possibly be all art or just all science, right? If product was only art, it would just be art. And if it were just science, it would just be science. But it's not. It's something different and, you know, frankly I think we can both agree it's something that's more exciting and, and I think my answer probably would surprise a lot of people who work with me because of how much I champion the importance of intuition and, and creativity within the product and, and design process. But I would say that it's actually more science. And maybe not for the, for the reasons you might think, but because I think it actually... The, the process of design in product resembles a scientific process far more than

6. 20:20 – 29:38

   How to Encourage Product Innovation

   1. JBJack Brody20:20

      it resembles the artistic process. Um, and I can get concrete there, right? The scientific method is you make an observation, something that's happening out in the world, and you form a hypothesis about what's happening, and then you create some experiments to test that hypothesis, and then you iterate until you feel like you've uncovered what's going on. Now, the design thinking process which, you know, I, I use interchangeably with the, the product process. Again, you know, coming from design, I kind of view everything through that lens... is very similar. Instead of making an observation, you, you, you define a problem, right? You observe a problem that's happening, something that people are dealing with that's making their life less than ideal in some small or major way, you form a hypothesis about how to solve that problem, you build a prototype to test that hypothesis with real people, and then you iterate. And so ultimately what's the difference between the scientific method and, you know, the design thinking process is that design thinking starts out with a problem and it ends with a new solution, whereas the scientific method starts out with a question or an observation and it hopes to end with a new understanding. And so product is really like this adaptation of the scientific method that's used to solve a problem by creating something new, not just to understand why something's happening in the first place. And so that's the way I see, like, this is... There's the, the scientific part of it because it's like the process of the scientific method. But the difference, that ability to create something net new, that's where the art comes in. Because like art, when you're creating something, you have to do th- so through the filter of, of the human mind. And to do that well, you need to use imagination, you need to use creativity, you need to have a cultural understanding, and that's the art. So I don't know, like 80/20.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings22:21

      Is that what Jeremy meant when he said to me about your approach to creating a repeatable process for product innovation?

   3. JBJack Brody22:28

      I think that that is probably what he was referring to, yes. Um, and I think, you know, we can get a little bit more specific on that, which is there are certain elements to that process that are really important to define because there are things that can allow that process to be very successful and there are things that can hold that process back. And I think the first thing to really think about an ingredient for success here is you kind of have to take a step back and you have to think about what is creativity in the first place, because having a creative organization is table stakes for this repeatable process of innovation actually working. And, you know, somebody probably from some dictionary somewhere is gonna come out and tell me that this is not the definition of pro- of, of creativity. But this is how I've always defined it, which is taking two distinct ideas and merging them together into something new. That is creativity in a nutshell. You know, no idea comes out of thin air. They're all built on different ideas. But what creates something novel is actually bringing these disparate ideas together. And so that- that's kind of like the, the foundation on which this entire system sits. But what's interesting is, you know, what is the best way to create an environment where you have a bunch of, you know, unique ideas coming together? And that's where the importance of having a really diverse workplace comes in, because you are much more likely to get different ideas merging together if you have people with different lived experiences collaborating. And so ultimately in order to set up this process for repeatable innovation, you have to have creativity, and to have creativity, you have to have diversity of thought, and you have to encourage that and you have to embrace it. And so that's the foundation from which this process, you know, really sits atop.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings24:16

      How does idea submission work internally? I have Gustav, the CPO at Spotify on the show, and he said, "Talk is cheap, so we should do more of it," um, which I thought was quite an interesting statement. How do you think about like idea generation and submission internally to ensure that you hear the best ideas?

   5. JBJack Brody24:35

      Yeah, I- I actually really like that, you know, the idea that, that talk is cheap. I think I would add maybe a caveat to that, which is talk is cheap if you set up an environment where it feels that way. Because talk can be very expensive or it can take a toll if you don't feel like you're in en- an environment where it's safe to talk. And so, you know, maybe another fundamental ingredient of creating creative culture is creating psychological safety, right? If you feel like if you make a mistake or you have an idea that's, you know, somebody's had a million times or somebody else thinks is bad, you're not gonna share that. And if you're not sharing that, you know, we're not gonna have as many ideas to choose from. And ultimately, you know, the idea we pursue is only as good as the number of ideas we've had to choose from. And now it can be difficult to choose the right idea to go pursue, right? And that's where a lot of this process comes into play. But ultimately, you know, the more ideas you have up front, the more likely you are to find a gem. And so I think it is really critical that you are encouraging that within, you know, the- the- the environment and making people feel really safe.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings25:47

      How do you literally do that, Jack? I- I love the idea of psychological safety. Nicely said, hard to do. How does one do that?

   7. JBJack Brody25:54

      I think it's- it's all about behaviors. I mean, you have to model it from the top and you have to encourage it all the way down. And so you have to reward people, right? When somebody brings an idea to the table, you have to thank them for that idea. You know, when somebody says something that goes against the grain and you know that it probably took a little bit of courage to say that thing, you have to reward them for it and you have to do that publicly and you have to- you have to do it yourself. You know, one of my favorite things to do when I'm offering up an idea to a team is to preface it with the fact that, "Hey, this is a stupid idea." Because that just helps everybody realize that it's okay to share stupid ideas. Um, and you know, when other people are doing that, you just gotta let, you gotta give it room to breathe. And so I think there's no better way to create a culture of psychological safety than to make sure that you are rewarding people when they're taking risks and you're doing that in a way that's public so other people see that it's okay.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings26:49

      When you think about the options that you have in front of you with ideas coming in, how do you think about a framework for prioritization when there's three that you could choose but resource constraints mean that you can only do one?

   9. JBJack Brody27:02

      Yes.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings27:02

       Is it like upside planning? Is it ease of execution? What is the fact that determines your choice?

   11. JBJack Brody27:09

       It's a combination of all of these things, right? Like I would actually put a lot of this, you know, I would kind of bucket in- into three different areas. One is, you know, what is the potential impact, right? What is the opportunity size of doing this idea? Two is what is the cost? What is the engineering cost? How much time will it take? How many resources to make it successful? And then there's this third bucket which, you know, is kind of the art part of this whole thing, which is what is your gut instinct into how important this is for our long-term vision or how much people are going to like it? You know, and- and that's a little bit of instinct. And so you have these three buckets and then you basically-

   12. HSHarry Stebbings27:46

       Can I- can I add one? Can I add one?

   13. JBJack Brody27:47

       Yeah, please.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings27:48

       Is pro- probability of outcome and execution, like if it's a 95% that you will be able to do it versus a 3% flyer, it would also change decision-making processes.

   15. JBJack Brody28:00

       I think that's exactly right, you know, and I think a lot of that comes out in the like cost to build it, right? That can help you understand, you know, it's- it's not just about, um, you know, how long is it gonna take? It's about the opportunity cost, right? If we spend three months trying this and we can't get it out the door, then, you know, that's three months wasted. And so you've got those three buckets and you- you have to apply relative weighting to them, right? High, medium, low impact, high, medium, low cost, high, medium, low gut feel. If something's high impact, low cost, high gut feel, build it yesterday. If it's, you know, low impact, high cost, forget about it. If it's somewhere in the middle, if I had a perfect answer for you, I'd- I'd spend, you know, half the amount of time at work. That's the hard-

   16. HSHarry Stebbings28:48

       Can I- can I ask, you see many different product talks today as well and we have, you know, thousands of product leaders and hundreds of thousands of founders. What big mistakes do you see people make and product teams make in their product processes?

   17. JBJack Brody29:02

       I think the most common mistake I see is people becoming too hung up on a solution and spending too much time on a specific solution rather than spending all of that time really understanding the problem and defining the problem. Because you can get really excited about a solution, but ultimately if it's not solving the right problem, it's not worth doing. And- and so if you can really get deep around the problem you're gonna solve, then I think your path to success is going to be much higher probability.

7. 29:38 – 35:53

   Product Team Management

   1. JBJack Brody29:38

   2. HSHarry Stebbings29:38

      I totally agree with you. In these meetings and with these kind of prioritization decisions, sometimes people will make mistakes and sometimes on execution people will make mistakes. And again, having talked the shit out of you, I know your strengths and weaknesses and one of them is you support people selflessly. Um, great, but sometimes someone is actually just not good enough. My question to you is how do you know when to continue supporting someone versus when to cut the cord and say, "You know, Jack, this is the third time now. I'm sorry it's not working"?

   3. JBJack Brody30:13

      Yeah. It's a- it's- it's a really great question. Something I spend a lot of time thinking about and- and, you know, I take very seriously. If there's good intentions...You have to start by giving it time, right? If there are bad intentions, you gotta change something very quickly and y- and you gotta make a decision. You probably, you know, that person needs to go. But let's assume good intent because 99% of the time people have good intent. And so if their intent is good but their execution is flawed or they've made mistakes or their judgment was bad, you have to deliver feedback in real time. You have to help them understand what mistakes they made, why they might have made them, and what your expectations are. Where is your bar? What is good enough? And, you know, what I've found, it's (laughs) that if you're having that conversation frequently and, and, you know, very candidly... And again, the best way to have a candid conversation like that with a team member is to have it come from a good place. If you have good intentions as that person's, you know, leader or manager, it's gonna be much easier to deliver tough feedback because they're gonna know it's coming from a good place. So that's how you make those conversations easier to have, and once they're easier to have, you can have that conversation way more consistently. And Harry, what I've found is that by doing that, you know, the number of times I've had to let somebody go is actually relatively small. And it's not because I don't take performance management seriously, but it's because through these series of conversations, that person either gets better or they realize that this isn't the role for them or this isn't the place for them, and they choose to leave themselves.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings31:51

      Can I ask you something I'm, I'm struggling with now? Um, always dangerous to use real time, uh, situations in a, a podcast-

   5. JBJack Brody31:58

      (laughs) .

   6. HSHarry Stebbings31:58

      ... but I lack morals and scruples and so I will anyway. Um, uh, it's when you do care and you actually do really care about the person, for me it's not easier, it hurts more because bluntly if I don't, "Sorry Jack, you're not good enough. And I, bluntly, I didn't really care about you. Sorry." But when I do really care, it pains me that you're not good enough, and I'm sad for you, for me. Do you see what I mean? It hurts more.

   7. JBJack Brody32:25

      I do. And, and it resonates deeply because I, I struggled with that for a very long time. And look, don't get me wrong, I still struggle with it, right? It's, it's never my favorite thing to do, to, to get out of bed in the morning and then go have a tough conversation with somebody I, I, you know, really, really like and, and, and want to see succeed. But I have seen enough times that, you know, I've had to go have those tough conversations with people I really cared about who had really good intent but just weren't cutting it, and what I've seen every single time, Harry, is that that person, whether it's, you know, a month later or six months later or a year later, is better for it. They have found something that is a better use of their time, that is a better match to their skills, and that makes them more fulfilled. You know, if you're really struggling in a role, you know, not to say everybody shouldn't be challenged all the time. You should. I'm struggling all the time. But if you really aren't, you know, meeting those expectations, the basic expectations of the role you're in, I can guarantee you you're not enjoying yourself and you're not finding it fulfilling. And so it's much better to, you know, let that person go find the thing that they're gonna love 'cause we all deserve that.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings33:32

      What are you struggling with most today?

   9. JBJack Brody33:37

      Ugh, where do I start? (laughs) I, you know, I struggle, I- I think every, it, every day is a constant struggle, right? And ultimately for me, that's what makes it all so enjoyable and so rewarding, right? If there's no struggle, if there's no journey, you really don't appreciate the outcomes on the other side. I would say-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings33:57

       Can I ask you-

   11. JBJack Brody33:58

       Yeah.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings33:58

       ... Jack, one thing that came from my references on you was perfection. Um, you know, you're a great surfer, you're a fantastic father, you're a fantastic husband, you're an incredible product leader. Do you feel the pressure to keep everything perfect?

   13. JBJack Brody34:14

       Now you're, this, you're sounding a lot like my therapist and-

   14. HSHarry Stebbings34:17

       (laughs)

   15. JBJack Brody34:17

       ... uh, so I, you know, this is something I talk about a lot. (laughs) I would not say that I, I have, you know, I would actually not consider myself a perfectionist by any means. I think that I obviously work really hard and across a bunch of different areas and I try to be a good person, but I've found that the best way for me to at least get close to succeeding in multiple areas simultaneously is being okay with falling short of perfect. And I will say that that has become more challenging, you know, especially in the last year. You know, we've, we, we've had a baby, Skye, who's now almost one years old, uh, you know, the, the, you know, work is, is, is really something that I'm dedicating a lot of time and, and energy and passion to. And then of course I have my wife Nicole who, you know, has, is, you know, been in my life for 10 years and I wanna make sure that, you know, her everything is great all the time. And so I constantly feel this tension, you know? It's if I'm not, if I'm not working, I feel some guilt that, you know, I could do more, and if I'm not with Skye or Nicole, I feel some gul- guilt that, you know, I'm not doing enough for them. And so there's constant tes- tension, there's constant pressure, but I think ultimately recognizing that you're gonna have to fall short of perfect is the only way to really enjoy everything in the moment and recognize that it's okay, and to get comfortable with that kind of failure in yourself and recognize that every time you fail is an opportunity to learn and to get better and to do a little bit better next time.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings35:43

       I, I always say that's the hardest thing for me, which is like, you know, bluntly, I'm always failing at something. Failing at being a son but I'm crushing it at being an entrepreneur. Failing at being a fund manager but I'm crushing it at being a son.

8. 35:53 – 43:34

   Hiring for the Product Team

   1. HSHarry Stebbings35:53

      Whatever those are. But we spoke about letting people go, I want to start on actually the hiring process itself. I see a lot of mistakes here. How do you actually structure the hiring process for a product team? And Jack, picture me as like a, an, a younger founder. Like, how do you advise me on how to hire and structure that process?

   2. JBJack Brody36:10

      You'll hear me say this a lot, you could ask me about, just about any question about how to apply process to it and I'll go back to the same kind of design thinking process because the beauty of design, the beauty of design thinking is that it's a way of solving problems. It's a process for problem-solving. And by the way, you know, having, not having a team member that you need, that's a problem for the organization and one that you have to figure out how to solve. And so I really look at every process as this iterative process that, you know, it starts with defining the problem. And hiring is the same, right? If you're...... a startup founder or a public company CEO, or whatever it might be. Before you start the process of actually looking for a candidate, you have to understand and define the problems within your organization that needs solving through hiring somebody new. And I think what you find when you do that exercise is that oftentimes, you can solve those problems by changing something existing within the organization, changing a process, moving somebody between roles, changing their scope or, or the responsibilities, doing a reorg. All of these things are different tools you have at your disposable- disposal to solve a problem without necessarily needing to bring in someone. Now, oftentimes the problem you're facing is you've got a gap in skill sets. You need some, you need an additional person, right? Whatever it might be. And once you've identified that problem and, and the scope and responsibility that is required from that person, then you can start the hiring process. But I think that's, you know ... W- the thing I think I can add most to anybody who's thinking about hiring is ... Now, there are plenty of books you can read about how to interview, what questions to ask, you know, what to look for, things like that. But I think what people often forget is that step zero or that step negative one where you're actually really defining what you need in the first place.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings37:57

      How do you do that effectively? Like, I- I'm constantly hiring and I'm like, "Well ..." And other people are like, "Do you have a job description?" I'm like, "Not really. I just know I need this person, and they're gonna do newsletters and YouTube and, and, uh, copyright for the blog. I've not really done the j- JD." How d- how do would you advise me?

   4. JBJack Brody38:18

      And to be clear, you know, I think based on the stage of the company and, and this- the- the need for that role, like, you don't always need a JD. It doesn't always need to be exactly prescriptive. And I'd imagine, Harry, that you have a really good sense for what you need, what you're looking for, and what that person is gonna be responsible for when they join. Um, and you've come to that sense by taking in a bunch of, you know, different information from the things that you're working on, the people you're working with, the opportunities you have in front of you, the vision of where you wanna go. All of those things come together to help clarify for you what it is you're looking for. That's basically this process, right? You have to start by talking to the people. You gotta understand, like, what needs does- do your team members have? You know, where do they feel stretched thin? What skill set gaps do they see? Just like when you're building a product, you start by c- talking with the customers. You know, in this world, when you're hiring somebody, your customer is your team. You're trying to make their, their jobs easier. You're trying to make them more efficient. You're trying to make them, you know, enjoy the work they are doing more and not have to do some of the work that, you know, they're less equipped to do or less passionate about. And so it really starts with having those conversations, talking with the people you work with, understanding their needs, understanding where they see the gaps, and you gotta take in all that information and you need to parse it and you need to come out of it with some instincts around, you know, what it is you need to hire.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings39:35

      Can I ask you, in terms of, like, the process for hiring new team members at Snap, say for product, like is it like a meeting with the PM, and then a meeting with someone else, and then a meeting with you? Like, what does that actual process look like?

   6. JBJack Brody39:48

      It depends on the role. It depends on the level. It de- it, it depends which team they're sitting in. Um, but for the most part, you know, I think like many companies, we, we have a screening call first. It's usually just 30 minutes. It's kind of a, a get to know you. You know, you, you provide some information about the role. You ask a few questions. Make sure that, you know, there's, there's at least a, a pretty strong likelihood of a fit. And you do that so that you're not wasting the time of, you know, six or seven people in an interview loop spending, you know, 45 minutes each with this person, which is time-consuming, especially when you're in hypergrowth. Like, people will spend a lot of time interviewing. And so those screenings are a really important way to make sure that, you know, that is time well spent. Um, I think once you get into the interview stage, you know, I think one thing that is really important when we're doing our hiring is making sure that the, the panel of the folks interviewing this person are diverse and, you know, not just from a ethnicity standpoint or a socioeconomic standpoint, but, but also from a, a roles and discipline standpoint. You know, if you're a product manager at Snap, you're gonna be working very closely with engineers. You're gonna be working very closely with designers. You're gonna have to be able to, you know, juggle all of these different roles and disciplines and work well with them. And so we wanna make sure that our panel is well-rounded from that front and, and can really, you know, gauge how well this person can work across those different disciplines.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings41:08

      What are the biggest hiring mistakes you've made? The biggest for me has always been I- I've overindexed on logos. I think young founders in particular do this. They kind of question their own judgments. They go, "Oh, wow, you were at Pinterest and X before and it gives us confidence." What are your biggest mistakes?

   8. JBJack Brody41:26

      I would say that the biggest mistake in hiring is actually not a mistake that leads you to hiring the wrong person. It's how you deal with the moments when you do hire the wrong person. Because, you know, interviewing is hard. It is not a perfect science, and we make mistakes. We all do. And, you know, I think sometimes the candidates make a mistake too. They think they want this job. Once they're there and they're working on it, they realize it's not a good fit for them for some reason, right? These things happen. So there's, there's, uh, y- you know, this, this kind of risk on both sides of the equation. And so it's never gonna be perfect. So, the biggest mistake you can make is when you bring somebody on who's not a good fit, not dealing with that quickly. Because have somebody who's not performing or not getting up to speed quickly enough becomes an anchor for the entire team. And, you know, I think one of the most impactful ways to make a team more efficient is to make sure that those low performers are moving on. Um, and that is a cycle that happens pretty quickly. When you hire somebody, you know pretty quickly whether or not they're gonna have what it takes in that role. And so I think the biggest hiring mistake that, that, you know, many people make, and that I myself have made in the past, is not actually, y- you know, being decisive enough in those moments when you realize it's not a good fit.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings42:46

      I once heard that if you're doing hiring right, you get it right 50% of the time. What would you say your right ratio is?

   10. JBJack Brody42:53

       That's a really good question. You know, I think that's about right, by the way. You know, I think that you're, you're going to, to get it wrong about 50% of the time. Now, that doesn't mean 50% of the people you hire aren't gonna work out. But I will say about 50% of the people we hire end up changing their role or tweaking it or working on something slightly different because over time we realize that there's a better fit within that. Um, I would say that for the most part, you know, the people we hire will stick around for a while because, you know, I think we have a good sense of, of what makes somebody successful at Snap. But of course, we're never perfect there. And I do think that that 50% mark is, is probably

9. 43:34 – 46:06

   Snap’s Developing World

   1. JBJack Brody43:34

      at least a good, good one to strive for.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings43:37

      I wanna move to the future 'cause I could talk to you all day. Tell me, uh, there's a couple of different elements in particular. Developing world, it's not one that, like, Snap has focused explicitly on, uh, really before. How do you think about the developing world today from a product strategy perspective?

   3. JBJack Brody43:53

      Yeah. You know, it, it certainly has been a focus for us over the, the, the last, you know, five years or so. In, in 2018, you know, we took on this project to basically rewrite the entire Android app from scratch because, you know, obviously when you're looking at, you know, the rest of the world, most people are using Android devices. You know, in the US and especially in the US for early adopters of Snap, the vast majority of them were using an iPhone. And so our app was, was largely designed and, and, and, you know, most performant on an iPhone. And that meant that we had made our product unintentionally very difficult to use or frustrating the user, inaccessible for the majority of the world. And so in 2018, we realized that the tech debt that we had built up over time building all of these features, innovating as quickly as we had, had just built up to the point where the app was basically unusable. Now, the really exciting thing in that moment of time was that there were s- millions of people across the world still using Snap in spite of how difficult it was to do something as simple as open the app and wait for it to load and start up. So we re- rebuilt it from scratch. And, you know, because of that, we saw a huge acceleration in adoption across the world. And so I think that was a really key learning for us as an organization that, you know, how accessible your product is and making sure that it feels like it was made for you, no matter who you are, no matter where you live, is a really important part of, of building products for, you know, at scale. And so now I think when we think about building this product, you know, for markets across the world, for different demographics, all sorts of different people with different needs and different cultures, we have this mentality of, of trying to build a local product globally. No matter where you are, we want you to open the app and feel like this was made for you, you know, likely with somebody who really understands your needs and, and, and what you, you want out of it.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings45:54

      Do you think that's possible? And what I mean by that is like when you look at actually consumer preferences around UIs, and I'm sure you're a product nerd. Um, I, I mean, I, I like to think I am, but I'm a venture investor so we proclaim

10. 46:06 – 48:33

    Building Product for Different Geographies

    1. HSHarry Stebbings46:06

       to be experts in things that we know nothing about as a hobby. Um, but like when you look at, like, you know, Southeast Asia, China, and Japan, their UIs are incredibly different to ours. They're noisy, they're very colorful, they're very busy compared to much more simplistic, simple, but I would say beautiful framing that we have in, in Europe and North America. Can you have a universally appreciated UI design product with such divergent consumer preferences?

    2. JBJack Brody46:34

       No, I don't think you can. You can't be perfect. You can't be optimal everywhere. And so, you know, sometimes you have to decide to do something slightly different in a different market. And, you know, to make that decision, you have to feel like that market is valuable enough for you to go make the investments to differentiate your p- your product there. But I would say certain things like the amount of, you know, teaching in the app, the language that's used, you know, like, those are things that are, are pretty cheap to, to distinguish in different markets. Now, other pieces of, of, you know, a product, like it's the core product value you're delivering, that's really difficult to change across markets. And so what we try to focus on are universal things, things that no matter where you are in the world, this is something that is going to be valuable. For example, you know, having conversations with your closest friends and family and empowering those conversations to be m- more fun, you know, more playful, more intimate, and, and safer, that's something that's universal. You know, no matter where you are in the world, if we can build an experience that makes that better, people are gonna love it.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings47:41

       Where is Snap not big today, but you think will be in the next few years country-wise?

    4. JBJack Brody47:48

       You know, Japan has been a very interesting market for us. I've always thought that that is a market in which, you know, Snap would really take off because there are certain elements to it. It's very visual. It's, you know, it's playful. The, the lenses that we offer in augmented reality is something that, you know, the, the Japanese market generally likes to, to really experiment with. Now at the same time, they have Line, right? So they have, they have a product experience that they're using to communicate all the time. And it's, you know, kind of saturated that market. But Snap has always been able to overcome these other messaging services because it does it in such a different way. It offers visual communication, you know, that empowers a different type of, of conversation. And so I think that's a market where, you know, with enough focus, it, it's

11. 48:33 – 51:19

    Did Snap copy Kakao stories?

    1. JBJack Brody48:33

       something that we can kind of take to the next stage.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings48:36

       Did you copy KakaoStories?

    3. JBJack Brody48:39

       (laughs) So, I would say the answer to that is no. You know, beyond the stories element of KakaoStories, it was a very different product. And I'll tell you actually what Stories came from because I think it's a great story and actually...... is, you know, I think one of, one of my favorite analogies to one of my favorite design quotes, which is the Henry Ford quote. You know, "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me faster horses." But Henry Ford, you know, went beyond the solution the customers were giving him and he looked at the problem, which was they wanted to get from point A to point B faster. And he built the automobile, which was a better way of doing that than a faster horse, right? I love that story because that's exactly what we're talking about when we say focus, you know, on the problem, on the implicit needs, not what customers are explicitly telling you. And with Stories, you know, what we were hearing from the community was they wanted a way to send a Snap to everyone. They wanted it to be easier for them to go take a Snap, tap everybody on the send to list, and blast it off. Now we recognize that if we did that, it would really dilute the feeling of receiving a Snap. Right now when you receive a Snap from a friend, you know that they tapped your name. And as subtle as it is, that makes you feel special. You know that that person was thinking of you. And that's the beauty, that's the beauty of, of, you know, of Snapping. If we were to give you a button that allowed you to select everyone, you wouldn't feel as special. And so we took this, this, you know, problem people were telling us which is, "Hey, I want a way of sending to everyone." And we invented a new way that wouldn't dilute the experience of, of, of Snapping, but actually in turn would, would spark more conversations 'cause it was this broadcast forum to your closer friends, it was ephemeral so people felt comfortable posting raw, authentic, in-the-moment content. But it also gave everyone a chance to reply, which would then spark those conversations that could lead to that really meaningful one-to-one Snapping behavior.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings50:37

       Do you know one thing I used early in the marketing of the show? We used to promote obviously, uh... Sorry. (laughs) I don't mean that savagely, but we used to promote Snap as like, "Hey, follow us on Snap." Um, and it was like, "Follow @hw1996." Um, and, uh, and, like, you had, like, you know, we had thousands and thousands who did. And the wonderful thing about being as homogenous a market as we have listening, you have thousands of Simons, thousands of Davids. And I used to, like, go, "Hey, David, check out the newest show." Da-da-da-da-da. And then you could literally just tap 300 Davids (laughs) and they would get it and they'd be like, "Wow, individual? That is amazing." Um, sorry, that was just like recounting

12. 51:19 – 56:09

    Snap & Artificial Reality

    1. HSHarry Stebbings51:19

       back to my mem-

    2. JBJack Brody51:20

       I love it. That's guerrilla marketing at its finest right there.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings51:22

       Oh, yeah, yeah. We used to do that a lot. It worked brilliantly well, by the way. Um, the second thing I have to ask is about AR. What's your vision for the future of AR? It's like we always hear the talk of it. Um, is it always through the phone camera lens? How do we think about that?

    4. JBJack Brody51:36

       Uh, you know, I think the, the... What's so incredible about Snapchat is that it really redefined what the camera can be. And I... You know, before Snapchat, the camera was really a tool to capture a moment, to save for later or to, you know... And, and whether that was an artistic thing through, you know, artistic photography or it was, you know, for family settings and, and, you know, saving those moments that were meaningful that you wanted to relive later. Snapchat really took the camera and it said, "Okay, what if this was a tool for communication? What if we made it, you know, more visual, more immersive so that, you know, a, a picture says a thousand words," right? And so that was the power of Snapchat. It just made it so much faster to have these immersive conversations that really made it feel like you were there with another person. And so people started using the camera a lot because it turns out that talking with friends is a far more frequent behavior than capturing an image of something pretty. And so people were opening our camera hundreds of times a day to send, you know, a Snap to somebody to continue a conversation. That led to a bunch of other opportunities, and it really helped us think about, like, other ways of using the camera, right? You can, we, you can use the camera to tell stories. You can use the camera to, you know, post content to the Snap Map so people get a, get a view of what's happening around the world. But ultimately the most exciting and most important opportunity for Snap was that you could use the camera to augment the reality around you, because now we had a viewfinder into the world and into your setting and into the things that you were experiencing. And so that's really where AR came from, and it started with these, you know, pretty, you know, playful lenses that, you know, helped you communicate with a friend or express an emotion. But ultimately we found that some of those lenses could actually be very utilitarian. It could help you solve a math problem. It could help you, you know, understand what are the ratings behind this wine bottle by pointing your camera at it. And so I think that the future of augmented reality is going to be around creating more and more utility and through the way of understanding the environment around you. And so, you know, I think that's really where AR is going, and, you know, like all technologies that find some form of product-market fit, they tend to evolve pretty quickly. And Snap has certainly helped AR find that product-market fit and, and find a ubiquitous way of people playing with these things. And, um, so I think that kind of charts the, the, the path for the future there.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings53:56

       I, I love that in terms of the utility value created there, and final one, I promise. But, uh, does that still go through the phone camera lens, though, or does it go through contact lenses or glasses? What, what happened to the Snap glasses?

    6. JBJack Brody54:08

       Yeah, the Snap... It's something we're still working on, and, you know, I can't say much, but there's some really exciting progress. So, you know, we fundamentally believe that, that AR is going to become better and better. It's going to become more and more useful. And ultimately the, the promise of augmented reality is that it can help technology move to the background, right? So you don't have to have this thing between you and the world. And glasses, you know, are a better form factor for th- for, for that. It can really take technology out of the way when you don't need it, but overlay it on the world when it's useful to. And so, you know, for us, that is the, the pinnacle of augmented reality and why we're pursuing it. I think ultimately augmented reality will find its, its true essence...... through glasses. Today, it's extremely powerful on the phone and the amount of engagement and, and the developer ecosystem we've been able to build around that ubiquity is what's going to empower us to be really well-positioned for that future.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings55:07

       Were the glasses a big fact when they launched?

    8. JBJack Brody55:11

       The first version of the glasses were, you know, an incredibly fun t- thing to get out in the world. And, you know, I think it was the first time we had shipped a hardware product, and we saw some really exciting buzz around it. Um, but ultimately it was very difficult for us to deliver, you know, to that demand in the spike that, that came with it. And I think in many ways, the first product we launched, um, you know, it had some pitfalls, right? I think we knew that it was early. We wanted to get something in people's hands. And our philosophy has always been, you know, whether it's with software products or it's with our hardware, get these products into the hands of real people as quickly as possible and use that to inform the step you need to take next to make it magical. So, I would say that the first version of Spectacles, you know, obviously it wasn't an iPhone moment. It's not something that has generated an enormous amount of revenue for the company, but it has absolutely helped us hone in on where to take these things in the future. And so from that regard, a massive success.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings56:08

       I think it was cool.

13. 56:09 – 1:02:16

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings56:09

       I l- I, I, I always thought it was awesome. Um, right, we're gonna do a quick fire 'cause otherwise I'll, I'll take all the All right. ... time. Um, tell me, how has angel investing impacted your product mindset, Jack?

    2. JBJack Brody56:21

       I think it's made it clear that no matter what stage of company you're in, you have to maintain a startup mentality. And, you know, that is a constant reminder of that.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings56:31

       Tell me most important skills to build early on in your career in product.

    4. JBJack Brody56:37

       Get really good at focusing on the problem and defining the problem and let the solutions follow.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings56:43

       What would you say is the biggest mistake... You're very good at quickfire. What would you say is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring product teams?

    6. JBJack Brody56:50

       I would say not hiring somebody who's willing to play a bunch of different roles. If you're hiring for too much specialization, you're not gonna find somebody who's passionate enough and excited en- enough to really get their hands dirty and do all the work that's required at that early stage.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings57:08

       How has becoming a parent changed your operating mindset?

    8. JBJack Brody57:13

       It's really clarified my priorities. I mean, I've got, I've got two things going on, you know. I've got work and I've got my family. And I used to be a, you know, and still am in many ways, but I used to be a very restless soul. You know, I'd be sitting, uh, you know, at work and I'd know it was, you know, great waves out, uh, outside and it's a beautiful day, and part of me would be like, "Ah," like, "I wish I could surf right now." And now, there's none of that. It's like, you know, I'm working when I'm working and I'm with my family when I'm with my family. So, it's really clarified those things.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings57:44

       What one piece of advice would you give to a product leader starting a new role today?

    10. JBJack Brody57:48

        Get vulnerable fast. You know, I think the most important thing to do when you're starting in a new role, or in any role, is to be willing to, to share your insecurities and your vulnerabilities because it then gives you the time and the space to learn and to grow, because you're not gonna be perfect day one. You're gonna have to learn the environment. You're gonna have to learn the people. You're gonna have to learn the product. There are so many things you're gonna have to learn in order to become good at what you do. And the more that you are open about the fact that you're not good yet, the more people will give you the feedback and the time and the space to get good.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings58:25

        What are your insecurities? (laughs) Yes.

    12. JBJack Brody58:31

        Oh, what, what aren't... Uh, you know, I'm insecure about everything, you know. I think impostor syndrome has been the, the thing that has been most consistent throughout my career. Um, you know, it just always feels like I'm surrounded by brilliant people, you know, that are so capable at so many things. And, uh, you know, in so many ways, you know, no matter where I look, I find somebody who's better at something than I am. And that's the beauty of, you know, working at a company where everybody is smart, everybody is talented, everybody's creative, everybody's driven. But, you know, it can make you wonder sometimes, like, "Am I good enough at all of these different things?" And the reality is if you surround yourself with great people, you don't have to be good at, uh, at everything 'cause you can lean on other people.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings59:14

        When I say, like, master product mind, I immediately, for me, think about two people, Scott Bowski and Antoine Martin. When I say product master for you, e- excluding those two, you can't take mine, um, who would you say?

    14. JBJack Brody59:29

        Uh, you know, this is gonna be the most, uh, expected answer of all time, but I would say Evan Spiegel and I would say Steve Jobs.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings59:42

        Yeah. I would, I would give you that. Yeah, pretty expected.

    16. JBJack Brody59:45

        Yeah.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings59:45

        Yeah, yeah, I, I'm with you. What's Evan's biggest weakness?

    18. JBJack Brody59:48

        I would say his ambitions for where he wants things to go can very occasionally get in the way of where things are. And that is the beauty of the fact that he surrounded himself with leaders who are willing to help him see that bigger picture.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:08

        Which company product strategy do you most respect and admire? When you look around you at the companies that we have, were you, like, smart but they did really well and I respect that product strategy?

    20. JBJack Brody1:00:20

        So, I'll give you ano- another maybe expected answer, uh, you know, given everything that's going on in the world. But I think the reason why I, I think it's so exciting is, is maybe different. So, OpenAI, obviously it is, you know, the talk of the town right now, and for, for good reason, but I think what is so interesting about their strategy is that it really bucks convention, right? I, I am the first to tell you that you should not build a technology in search of a problem. You have to start with a problem. I've said that probably 1,000 times throughout this podcast. But what's really interesting about what OpenAI has done is that they recognized that artificial intelligence as a technology is actually fundamentally different. You know, by nature, AI is non-deterministic. It's generative, right, which is both what makes it so exciting and somewhat terrifying. But it means when you're investing deeply in building this technology, you don't know exactly where it's gonna go. You don't know the exact outcomes, but they knew enough to know that investing in this and get- getting this technology good enough would be able to solve a myriad of problems. And, you know, I think they even surprised themselves with ChatGPT and how quickly they found product market fit, but that's the genius of their strategy. They invested everything they had in building a technology that they had conviction in would a- be able to solve many, many problems. And so they've really helped me, you know, I think, think differently about, you know, at least AI is a technology where, you know, you don't have to start with the problem you're solving. You can start with the technology and then it can be applied basically everywhere. And I think AI is really gonna be transformative for that reason.

    21. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:00

        Jack, I can't thank you enough for this. I've so loved it. I'm sorry for switching hats to being a therapist for, for a little of the questions, but you've been amazing, so huge thank you.

    22. JBJack Brody1:02:09

        Hey, we all need our therapy. I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep and I'll wake up feeling fresh and-

    23. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:14

        (laughs)

    24. JBJack Brody1:02:15

        ... great tomorrow, so.

Episode duration: 1:02:16