The Hardest Working Startup in America | Nico Laqua, Co-founder & CEO @ Corgi

Nico Laqua 0:00 If your days off happen to be Saturday and Sunday every week, then you will not have a place at Corgi. I don't sleep a lot. I think the average night, probably three to four hours.

Harry Stebbings 0:08 So you literally live in the office?

Nico Laqua 0:10 Yeah, I have a mattress there and-

Harry Stebbings 0:11 Would you rather Corgi was a trillion-dollar company, but you died at 50, or it was a fail and you lived till you were 80?

Nico Laqua 0:18 I mean, I think the answer to that is pretty easy.

Harry Stebbings 0:21 Welcome to Corgi Insurance, the most insane workplace culture in America. Joining me in the hot seat today, their co-founder and CEO, Nico, who just closed their latest funding round, valuing them at a whopping $2.5 billion.

Nico Laqua 0:36 Yeah, I mean, I get a lot of backlash, the death threats in the DMs. People think I'm nuts. I think the number of good companies is very small.

Harry Stebbings 0:43 Ready to go? [upbeat music] Nico, dude, I am so excited for this. I was more excited, I have to admit, for this than I am almost any other show in the way that, one, I think we align, and two, I think we align on something that's rather different. Um, and so, one, thank you for joining me, dude.

Nico Laqua 1:11 Yeah, thanks for having me.

Harry Stebbings 1:12 I'm often struck with great CEOs.

Harry Stebbings 1:15 What is it that motivates you? Is it the fear of losing, or is it the thrill of winning?

Nico Laqua 1:20 I think you can't be afraid of losses. Um, losses are, like, beautiful because, um, you know, you, you can have asymmetric upside with winning, so I think you, you have to love winning, um, and you have to love the victories. Um, and, um, yeah, I think, I think Jeff Bezos, he, he said something a number of years ago that has always really stuck with me, um, in that, um, uh, he, he gave it, it, it as a baseball analogy, I guess very American, but, um, you know, in baseball, um, there's four bases, and you can score a maximum of... or there's three bases and, and the home plate, but you can score a maximum of four runs when, when you're at bat. Um, so if, if you go up to bat and every single time you swing, you try to, like, you know, hit the ball out of the park, that's a losing strategy in baseball a lot of the time because upside is capped. You know, you have, you have maximum of four runs, but your, your probability of striking out, of, of scoring nothing is, is quite high. Um, in business, it doesn't quite work like that because instead of four runs resulting from a home run, a home run might result in, in actually infinite upside. Um, it might result in something like AWS popping out of nowhere. Um, so, um, I, I, I really think, like, seeking asymmetric upside or, or, or infinite upside, uncapped upside with capped downside is the core of business and taking a lot of shots on goal. And if you look at, um, kind of people, uh, who, who started important things, not every single thing they did worked. Like Napoleon was the best general of all time, but he didn't win every single battle. You know, he won more battles than, than average, cer- certainly more, more than most other generals. But, um, I, I don't know. I, I, I think the, the fear of losing can't really motivate you because otherwise you'd just become this, like, uh, this creature afraid of, uh, you know, doing anything.

Harry Stebbings 3:01 I totally agree. I spoke to Josh Young on your team, and he said that, "Nico is probably the most aggressive person I've ever met. He sets goals that might seem unrealistic to others." When you think about the most aggressive thing you've done, I was gonna ask you, what did you do that was too aggressive? But I actually get asked shit like that all the time, and I think that's totally the wrong framing because nothing's too aggressive. And, uh, so I'm gonna ask you instead, what were you not aggressive enough on with the benefit of hindsight?

Nico Laqua 3:36 I think going to, to university,

Nico Laqua 3:37 going to college, that was a, a, a big mistake.

Harry Stebbings 3:40 Why?

Nico Laqua 3:42 Y- you know, if, if you wanna do big things, you need to go out in the wilderness a little bit and be humbled. You need to kind of, uh, metaphorically get beat up. Um, you need to, you know, go, go through the lows before you go through the highs. And, um, you know, I, I, I wasted some amount of time in my life, uh, doing that for sure.

Harry Stebbings 4:00 Do you, do you think university carries less weight than ever today?

Nico Laqua 4:03 I don't know if it carries less weight or more weight or... I, you know, I, I don't really think about that because you kinda make your own weight in life. And it's kind of an interesting point because startups are fundamentally, I think about, like, a crisis of legitimacy, where, um, you know... And, and that was a big problem in, like, the, the Roman Empire, right? Like it was a, a non-hereditary monarchy. You know, the, the emperors weren't inheriting any legitimacy, so if they were a bit crap, you could just kill them and then, you know, replace them with the next guy. And I think startups are a little bit like that, where there's not, like, some inherent loyalty. You know, there's no reason to work for this company or that company. There's no, uh, you know, blood ties. There's no inherited structure. And, um, and you can just go out and make your own. So, um, I think the process of, like, going through a company is just kind of, um, you know, you know, building that legitimacy, and I think that's why people try to point to things like the idea of tier one investors, um, you know, a- as a way to borrow that, that, that legitimacy. So, um, you know, uh, the, the universities I, I suppose the, the, the point is to give a credential that, that carries some legitimacy, otherwise you, you wouldn't do it. Um, or, you know, you can learn all the material online. You can learn all the material with an LLM much better than you can, uh, from some professor. Um, but I, I, I, I, I don't think, um, the, the, the credential of a university actually, uh, conveys the legitimacy that it ought to. Um, I think it's a bit too naked, you know, and on, on the nose.

Harry Stebbings 5:27 It almost reminds me of Marc Andreessen where he says essentially when a company is invested in by a fund, the fund is loaning them the brand and the validity that the brand name of the fund has until the company is big enough where then it transitions, and Corgi then loans the brand to Kanye or to JD at TCV, and it's the other way around. Do you see what I mean? It's like the legitimacy of brand.

Nico Laqua 5:53 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he also says, "Do you wanna be liked, or do you wanna win?" So I think if you talk to a lot of founders, there's often a perception that, that capital is fungible. You know, what we're seeing with kind of the, the, the perception of funds and the idea of value add and, and, and tiers of investors is that, uh, perhaps capital isn't so fungible after all and, and I-

Harry Stebbings 6:12 What makes you say that?

Nico Laqua 6:14 You know, like I, I don't think-Apple, Apple was invested in by Sequoia, but I, I, I think it'd be very unlikely that Steve Jobs would ever go, you know, flexing that Apple was a Sequoia company. You know, that would feel very strange. Uh, that'd be very unusual. But, but now, you know, it's, it's, it's not unusual to, uh, to, to, when describing a company, say it's a, it's a, a Tier 1 company or it's a YC company or it's a this company or that company, with the descriptor being their investors, um, to signify something about the way that the, the, the company, you know, acts or ought to be. And, um, and it's a bit unusual because y- w- you know, people will say that out of one side of their mouth, then the other side of their mouth they'll acknowledge that when they invest in companies, they can't do anything about their investment. You know, like, if, if, if the, if the team's incompetent or if they're making bad decisions, then that's a really hard thing to, to solve.

Harry Stebbings 7:06 No, that is 100% true. Um, I, I have to ask you, you said there, you know, do you wanna win or do you wanna be liked? Um, you and I both have a theory around work and work ethic and what it takes to win that's not always popular. Can you help me understand, you work seven days a week at the company-

Nico Laqua 7:22 Yeah

Harry Stebbings 7:22 ... and the company is expected to work seven days a week.

Nico Laqua 7:25 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 7:26 Can you help me understand why that is and how you thought through that as a decision?

Nico Laqua 7:32 If y- if you're solving the most important

Nico Laqua 7:34 problems or if you wanna, like, dream big and, like, scale up your ambition, like, like, let's presuppose that, that, um, you wanna do something big and not small. Whatever you can get done in, in, in five days, I promise you you'll get more done in six and seven and so on and so forth. And, um, and I think that, like, if you're doing a startup and, and you're serious about it and you want to win, you wanna do the biggest possible things, you want a sense of community and camaraderie and, and have, you know, brothers and sisters in arms with the people you're working with, then, um, you know, y- you should go all out. You shouldn't do the, the, you know, half-assing it. If five days, why not four or three or two or one, right? Like, you can, you know... I, I, I think you should just, if you're doing something, you should do it properly.

Harry Stebbings 8:18 Do you not believe in the benefits of rest, then? I, I'm, I'm 100% with you on the work ethic and I, I do actually think having a day off can be helpful. Like, do you not think that rest does carry benefits?

Nico Laqua 8:29 I, I mean, for some people, if they wanna take a day off, they should take a day off, but there's nothing about, you know, the weekend I think that signifies-

Harry Stebbings 8:36 But they wouldn't have a place at Corgi?

Nico Laqua 8:38 Um, you know, you can take a day off every now and then. It's, that's all right. But if, if your, you know, if your days off happen to be Saturday and Sunday every week, then you will not have a place at Corgi. Um.

Harry Stebbings 8:49 Dude, how does that go down in hiring? Like, I would love to be able to do that, and you could say, "Harry, you could do that."

Nico Laqua 8:55 You can just say it and say,

Nico Laqua 8:57 "Why? Because we wanna build the biggest thing ever, and if you wanna build the biggest thing ever, you need to win. And if you wanna win, then..." Actually, it's something that I think attracts the right type of person and it absolutely repels the wrong type of person because particularly for young people, I think there's a lot of, you know, people that wanna dream big. They wanna do something big with their lives and important with their lives. And if you wanna do something important with your lives, you're gonna do it a lot and you're gonna win. And, uh, if you wanna be a winner, if you wanna be a killer, then, um, you know, sure, you, you can, you can, you know, do that for 30 minutes a day, um, but I, I think doing it all the time is better.

Harry Stebbings 9:33 Do you have people who turn up to, you know, interview processes and think it's, it's kind of it-

Nico Laqua 9:39 Yeah

Harry Stebbings 9:39 ... but don't realize the intensity?

Nico Laqua 9:41 Yeah, I mean, we, yeah, we have everyone do work trials, so that, that scares some off. Um-

Harry Stebbings 9:45 What do you mean work trials?

Nico Laqua 9:46 Yeah. Like, I think it's really important. People need to know what they're getting into on, you know, on both sides. So b- before people come in, uh, we really like to have them kind of like, you know, do kind of mock work for, for one or several days, especially if it's over the weekend and then they see the office full. That, that helps them very quickly learn that, um, we're not joking around.

Harry Stebbings 10:04 That's a benefit of actually working weekends is people can do it in their jobs without taking time off-

Nico Laqua 10:09 Yeah, it makes it-

Harry Stebbings 10:09 ... and be very easy

Nico Laqua 10:10 ... it, it does make it easy to poach.

Harry Stebbings 10:12 What in a work trial impresses you most versus turns you off most? 'Cause it is tough in a two-day trial to have much impact. You're onboarding and whatever.

Nico Laqua 10:20 Yeah, I mean, the soft skills matter I think more than the hard skills for me because if someone really wants it, if, if they're, like, all in and if they want to, like, do the maximum, the maximally hard thing, the ambitious thing, uh, with their lives and they actually wanna go all in, then, um, you normally can find a, a place for s- for, for someone like that. And it might not be exactly what they, you know, are applying for or what they, they, they think they're gonna be doing, um, but I, I, I don't know. I, I, I think you should just solve, solve hard problems. You should do hard things. And you can kind of tell if someone's into that or if they're into checking in and checking out.

Harry Stebbings 10:57 What questions do you find most revealing when you're interviewing people?

Nico Laqua 11:01 I like to ask people what matters to them and why. I think that they tend to answer that honestly.

Harry Stebbings 11:06 Do you find money is an alarming response? If I said to you, "I'm just hungry to make money, dude. I wanna make money for my family," do you mind?

Nico Laqua 11:15 I mean, I, I, I don't necessarily mind. That normally comes from a certain place-

Harry Stebbings 11:19 Mm

Nico Laqua 11:19 ... I think. Um, like, to me, that answer normally, uh, would reveal that someone didn't have a lot of money. I think my answer for that is probably a little different, but I don't find that to be necessarily alarming. Although, I, I think that, um, being extremely mone- money motivated leads you to short-term, like, uh, like, local minimum, lo- local maximums, um, that, um, that don't actually result in the most money being made.

Harry Stebbings 11:43 What is your answer to that? If it's not the money... We, we were chatting earlier. Y- your sacrifice is unwavering to this business. We'll get onto more of it. W- what is the reason if it's not money?

Nico Laqua 11:54 I want to build, um, the most important company in the world. Um, I want to, you know, win. I admire the greats. I ver- very much want to join them. I think that as people living in this, like, time and, and circumstance, you know, we're subject to the world historical conditions in which we're in. If we were alive, um, you know, 200 years ago, we'd probably be generals, like, fighting some sort of wars or something, and that would be very simple. The winning would just mean, uh, you know, killing your enemies, and unfortunately you can't do that, um, anymore. Um, so I think the, the next best thing and, and, and where we're at now is that-Um, you can actually in a positive some way like make a, a, a really big difference in the world. So I want us to always be solving the hardest problems possible, and, uh, I wanna win. I wanna add value.

Harry Stebbings 12:40 I heard from one of your investors

Harry Stebbings 12:42 that you live in the office.

Nico Laqua 12:44 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 12:44 What, what does that look like? Do you actually live in the office?

Nico Laqua 12:47 Yeah, I think...

Nico Laqua 12:49 I, you know, I, I think it's one thing to say like, "Oh, why don't you guys work seven days a week?" And you're on like some yacht somewhere like, like hanging out like, uh [laughs] like or, or, or at Ibiza or something. Um, it's another thing if you're actually like putting in the work. So I, I think symbols often really matter, you know, like the, the cosmetic stuff, like having a sign on the building or, um, you know.

Harry Stebbings 13:11 We're gonna get to the sign dude, don't worry.

Nico Laqua 13:13 Yeah. Um, like the cosmetic stuff, like I, I think it does matter, like symbolism matters. There's a reason why, um, you know, uh, governments and, and religions and, and, and all of the really important things tend to care a lot about symbols. You know, the flag's very important and all that. I, I, I think that the, the, the, the symbolism around like working hard, um, like is, is quite different, like leading the troops from the front line versus like saying, "Oh, why don't you guys work hard and, and, and, and I won't." Um, so-

Harry Stebbings 13:42 So you literally live in the office?

Nico Laqua 13:44 Yeah. Yeah. I have a mattress there and, and that sort of thing.

Harry Stebbings 13:47 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 13:48 I, I, I don't spend every single night there anymore, um, because I, I used to shower at, uh, only the, the, the Equinox like one street over, and they, they closed very early, like 8:00 PM on, on Fridays, so that was unpleasant. We don't have an- a shower in, in our SF office. Our London office actually has a shower, so.

Harry Stebbings 14:05 Yeah, I had this in... Uh, founder's room. Is that what it's called?

Nico Laqua 14:09 Um, people-- Some people have called it that, but is... Nor- normally people just say, "Oh, it's Nico's room."

Harry Stebbings 14:14 I got founder's room, showers at Equinox, works every waking hour. How long do you sleep for?

Nico Laqua 14:21 I, I don't sleep a lot. I think the average night, um, couple hours, probably three to four hours. But I... Some, some nights I, I, I really do make an effort to try to sleep a little more 'cause I find I'm a bit more-

Harry Stebbings 14:33 Have you ever, have you ever had health scares?

Nico Laqua 14:35 Um-

Harry Stebbings 14:35 'Cause like candidly, I, I, I give everything to this. Um, I have psoriasis and I had heart palpitations-

Nico Laqua 14:42 Yeah

Harry Stebbings 14:42 ... because I was just so all in, and I still am, but I do have to like monitor my sleep actually is the one thing I really-

Nico Laqua 14:50 Yeah, I, I think sleep is important and I encourage people to sleep a lot. Um, I, I don't know. I, I, I think I would rather like measure my lifespan in victories than, than years. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm maximizing, uh, that.

Harry Stebbings 15:04 Like this is a hard question. Would you rather Corgi was a trillion-dollar company but you died at 50 or it was a fail and you lived till you were 80?

Nico Laqua 15:17 I mean, I think the answer to that is pretty easy. Um, because if I'm dying either way, you know. But for, for now, life is short. Um, we'll see what happens. Um-

Harry Stebbings 15:26 It, it, it reminds me of Olympians though. I don't know if you've ever seen this study whereas like they say, "Would you rather live 10 years less but have a gold medal?" And 98% of them said unwaveringly yes.

Nico Laqua 15:38 You, you need to want it and that, that's presupposing that, that death is coming either way, which you never know.

Harry Stebbings 15:44 [laughs] If Brian Johnson has his way. Uh, you said if you're not... If you're gonna be a hyper-growth startup and you're not working weekends, you're basically just quiet quitting.

Nico Laqua 15:54 Yeah. I, I, I strongly believe that.

Harry Stebbings 15:56 But you're the only one doing it, aren't you?

Nico Laqua 15:59 I don't know. I mean, I, uh, if, if you, if you visit, um, very high growth AI companies, at least in San Francisco, um, you know, the offices are pretty full on the weekends. Um, and, uh, I don't think it's a coincidence.

Harry Stebbings 16:12 [laughs] It's easy to look at this and go like, and people will, "So unfair, harsh." You also have a chef seven days a week.

Nico Laqua 16:24 Not anymore.

Harry Stebbings 16:25 Okay. Talk to me about that. Why did you decide to have a chef seven days a week and why do you not now?

Nico Laqua 16:30 Yeah. So, um, I, I, I loved our chef. I thought she was really great. Um, I think that just like ordering food is a little more, um, like logistically, uh, easy. Um, I, I think having food in the office is actually important and, um, be- because otherwise people like lose a lot of time like going out and like getting food and like coming back. It's just very inefficient and, you know, people need to think about like where they're going to buy the food and it's just, you know, extra like cognitive load. You know, you're, you're, you're, you're spending more time like doing that than you are doing something that's, that's high leverage. Um, you know, I, I think... I, I really dislike the culture of like pampering everyone or like taking care of them as if you're, you're their parents. I think Google is like the worst of that.

Harry Stebbings 17:15 Did it feel like you were pampering them when you had a chef seven days a week?

Nico Laqua 17:19 Uh, may- maybe a little bit, but that, that, that's, that's not the reason why we don't have a chef anymore.

Harry Stebbings 17:23 Why don't you have a chef anymore?

Nico Laqua 17:25 Um, I, I think that we really liked the idea of, of, of having a chef. Um, and, and again, like the chef we, we got was awesome. I, I really liked having her. Um, but I think that the... that sometimes doing more that's not like core, um, can like lead to logistical burdens, um, and it's better to focus your energy on, on things that directly lead to growth-

Harry Stebbings 17:52 Okay

Nico Laqua 17:52 ... or indirectly lead to growth.

Harry Stebbings 17:54 Things that indirectly lead to growth.

Nico Laqua 17:56 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 17:56 [laughs] So I actually said very excitedly the other night about our show to my girlfriend, and she said, "Huh, I just saw a job application." And I was like, "Well, I'm sure it's not related. It's a San Francisco company. She's a lawyer in London." And she was like, "No, no, no, it's the same one. Cafe expansion head."

Nico Laqua 18:16 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 18:16 And I was like, "That seems eerily similar to Corgi's role." And I was like, "Maybe it is." Talk to me. You have 24/7 Corgi Cafe.Why? You're an insurance company.

Nico Laqua 18:30 Yeah. So, um, when we rented out our building in San Francisco, uh, we, we needed to get signage on the side of the building, and it was zoned or something, so when we got, um, our primary floor, um, we were forced to take over the retail space. And it was, like, this empty barber shop. It was, like, really dungy, like, uh, you know, had been out of business for probably a couple years. And, um, so we, we moved in and, you know, everything was fine. And, um, you know, we have the sign on the side of the building, great. Um, but I'd walk in every day and I'd see this, like, empty barber shop, and it would just piss me off, 'cause, like, I'm paying for that, but, like, there's nothing in it. Like, it's a waste of, you know, it's a waste of everything. Um, and, um, at the same time, a huge complaint I have with San Francisco is that everything closes really early. Like, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a big problem, especially in the financial district where our office is. And there's a lot of really great startups that want to, like, push themselves hard, but you cannot find a cafe. You can't even find a place to eat past, like, you know, 6:00, 7:00 PM most days. Like, like, things just are... It, it's, it's a ridiculous, uh, situation. Um, clearly, clearly most restaurants don't have a growth mindset. Um, and, um, and, like, the, the other issue that I think we wanted to address is that for people that are serious about technology, about building things, about starting things, um, there's not actually, even in San Francisco, which is supposedly the center of technology for, for the world, um, you know, there's not a lot of places where people can actually, who are serious about that can come together and, um, you know, have, have a place where they can basically work hard. Um, and, um, yeah, we decided to just kind of impromptu, it wasn't, like, a big planned out thing, um, open up a 24/7 cafe, and, uh, caught on a lot more than we thought it would. Now it's always full. There's people signing term sheets and getting deals done, and...

Harry Stebbings 20:15 How much money did it take to start a cafe?

Nico Laqua 20:18 We spent under $100,000 opening it.

Harry Stebbings 20:20 You spent under $100,000 opening it?

Nico Laqua 20:22 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 20:22 Has it been successful?

Nico Laqua 20:24 I mean, it's always full.

Harry Stebbings 20:25 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 20:25 If you go there at, you can go there at, at 3:00 AM and, um, I'd recommend writing term sheets to everyone there, 'cause th- they're working hard. I, I can't tell you, there's probably, like, over 20 people have told me, like, "Oh," like, "I submitted my YC app in, like, the Quarry Cafe, and I got in," or some- some- something along those lines, or, "I signed a term sheet there," or...

Harry Stebbings 20:42 You should do Corgi Ventures, which operates from 3:00 AM to 5:00 AM.

Nico Laqua 20:46 [laughs]

Harry Stebbings 20:46 And it's, like, those founders that are there.

Nico Laqua 20:48 Yeah, I mean, the, the problem is if anything becomes, uh, you know, a, a, a measure of success, then, um, it ceases to be a good measure once, once all the, you know, the alpha disappears very quickly.

Harry Stebbings 20:59 I totally get you. Does it make money?

Nico Laqua 21:03 Um, we lose money on the cafe. With sponsorships, um, uh, because our drinks are sponk- are sponsored, and shout out to our drink sponsors. Um, we have-

Harry Stebbings 21:12 You have, like, Brexpressos, you said.

Nico Laqua 21:14 Yeah, Brexpresso. We have, we have Deal. We have, we have a couple of them. Um-

Harry Stebbings 21:18 What does Deal sponsor?

Nico Laqua 21:19 Um, it's the Deal Speed. It's a smoothie.

Harry Stebbings 21:22 Oh, I like that.

Nico Laqua 21:23 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 21:23 Yeah, yeah. Fair enough.

Nico Laqua 21:24 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 21:24 Deal love Deal Speed.

Nico Laqua 21:26 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 21:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nico Laqua 21:28 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 21:28 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 21:28 So, so with, with that, um, I think we're probably slightly profitable.

Harry Stebbings 21:33 If I was an investor, I'd say, "Nico, I love you, dude. You, I love the energy. This is a distraction."

Nico Laqua 21:38 Yeah. They, they hated it at first.

Harry Stebbings 21:40 Why, why are you doing a cafe expansion, Harry? You w-

Nico Laqua 21:43 Oh, you, you sound exactly like our investors.

Harry Stebbings 21:45 Well-

Nico Laqua 21:45 I got, I got a ton of calls and texts that said that before it opened.

Harry Stebbings 21:48 Oh, no, no, no. No, no. No.

Nico Laqua 21:49 I did.

Harry Stebbings 21:50 No, no.

Nico Laqua 21:50 I did. I promise you.

Harry Stebbings 21:51 I've, I've learnt that you don't get any credit-

Nico Laqua 21:54 Until it's working

Harry Stebbings 21:55 ... for ever criticizing a founder, so I just don't. You know what I do? Brought that, "Dude, I'm here for you. Well done."

Nico Laqua 22:01 Well, well, I, I, I... Our, our investors didn't

Nico Laqua 22:04 get the memo.

Harry Stebbings 22:04 So-

Nico Laqua 22:04 So I heard plenty of that.

Harry Stebbings 22:05 But, dude, why are you doing it? I get it in SF, cool. You're opening in London.

Nico Laqua 22:11 Yeah. I mean, we have an office in London. I think I'm very bullish London actually, um, in general. Um, which-

Harry Stebbings 22:18 Why are you bullish London?

Nico Laqua 22:19 I think the talent is ex- is exceptional, um, both, both British talent and European. And I think, um, you know, there's very few places in the world where if you tell someone, like, pretty much anywhere to move to, they're, like, very happy to do so. I think San Francisco's one of those places. Um, I think New York's one of those places, al- although I don't think that good companies tend to be in New York. And be- because of that, um, I think that there's cer- certain exceptional qualities that, um, London has. And, um, given the whole, like, visa situation in the United States, I think there's actually a phenomenal opportunity for London to become, like, a center of AI and a center of tech. Um, so we opened a London office before we opened a New York office. Like, we, you know, we're very long London.

Harry Stebbings 22:59 Do you find it much cheaper to hire in London?

Nico Laqua 23:02 It's a little bit cheaper. I think we, you know, maybe, maybe we're paying above market, but we're not paying that much. Uh, the thing is if, if you're working for, like, a salary working at Corgi, you're doing something wrong. Like, if you're super hyped about your cash, like, comp, then, um, then, then probably, uh-

Harry Stebbings 23:17 Are you more generous than others on equity? 'Cause you understand that you are asking for more of someone's life being self-employed.

Nico Laqua 23:21 Yeah, yeah. We're, we're generous with top, top-offs. Um-

Harry Stebbings 23:25 What's top-offs?

Nico Laqua 23:26 Like, like, like, with w- after people are working, we, we, we give more, more equity based upon performance. That's, that's where we're generous, more than the initial equity that people sign on.

Harry Stebbings 23:34 Okay.

Nico Laqua 23:35 Or, so-

Harry Stebbings 23:35 So it's like accelerators on milestones hit.

Nico Laqua 23:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's more, it's a little more ad hoc than that. Um, but, uh, yeah. Yeah, something like that.

Harry Stebbings 23:43 [laughs] Uh, I love it. Um, we said about distractions. A lot of founders angel invest. How do you think about founders actively angel investing?

Nico Laqua 23:55 I don't angel invest. Um, and-

Harry Stebbings 23:57 Why?

Nico Laqua 23:57 I think it's a distraction. Yeah, I don't think it's like... Yeah. I, I don't, I don't know. It's, it, it doesn't feel like it's, uh, as, as core to, to, like, winning. You know, there-

Harry Stebbings 24:07 Have, have you sold secondaries?

Nico Laqua 24:09 No. I've, I haven't sold any second- people are always trying to buy them, but I've, I've yet to sell a single secondary.

Harry Stebbings 24:13 Why is that?

Nico Laqua 24:14 Um, because our equity's going up, and when... Or maybe I shouldn't say that, but, um, I believe our equity is going up, and, and I'm voting with my feet. Um, and, uh, you know, if, if, if I, if I have the, in my opinion, k- the scarcest asset that, that I could have any meaningful influence over, and I think that, like, we're gonna keep doing well and keep kicking ass, um, you know, why would I sell that? Like, I don't really have a

Harry Stebbings 24:40 You don't have huge rent to pay, that's for sure. [laughs]

Nico Laqua 24:43 [laughs] That's true.

Harry Stebbings 24:44 Um, I, I love that. Um, despite the bullishness on London, you're still super bullish on SF.

Nico Laqua 24:50 Yeah, I love San Francisco.

Harry Stebbings 24:52 Why is the amount of great talent building in SF? Is it just there's nothing else to do there?

Nico Laqua 25:00 Th- that might be part of it, um, which, you know, is, is maybe a bit of a problem that London has. Um, you know, things are actually open later in London and, you know, there's more people about. Too many, too many pubs. S- that might be a problem.

Harry Stebbings 25:11 There's a lot of pubs.

Nico Laqua 25:12 Um, there are a lot of pubs. Um-

Harry Stebbings 25:14 Do you drink?

Nico Laqua 25:15 Um, no, I don't drink.

Harry Stebbings 25:17 Okay.

Nico Laqua 25:17 Yeah. Um, but I, I think San Francisco's a special place because particularly with people in, in the US, um, you know, if, if, if you wanna do something big with your life and you're not really quite sure, like, where to go to, San Francisco is like a, you know, an end destination where, like, you can, you know, if you're a bit nerdy and if you love technology, you love programming, you love kind of these, um, maybe slightly unpopular sort of topics, um, then it's, it's a place where you can actually, like, find your people oftentimes, and where, like, you'll find yourself moving to. And I think that that's a, a special quality. It's almost like a, you know, a spiritual quality. Like you, you know, everyone's in, in exile or something. Um, and, um, and I think that, uh, that's something that's, like, very unique. And, um, that's why I think, um, New York is not a good place to, to have a company at all. Um, the people that, that move their companies to New York, uh, do so because they wanna date, um, and they're, they're, you know, that's the only reas- re- really real reason why they do. Um, same with Miami or, uh, you know, all of these other places. Um, if you're, if you're hardcore about startups and you're American, then I think you should, you should go to San Francisco, um, oftentimes. I mean, there's super great other cities, like I, I do like Chicago and, and, uh, we have an office in Dallas that, that's really great, too. Um, and if you're, um, hardcore about startups outside of the United States, I think London is, is second to none as well. Um, although, um, you gotta avoid the pubs.

Harry Stebbings 26:43 [laughs] The pubs are really getting it.

Harry Stebbings 26:46 Um, I get you. We've spoken a lot about everything from chefs to signage on buildings, to Corgi Cafe, to work ethic. Wh- wh- you're a little bit younger than me, but I do reflect on how I've built the company. When you reflect on what you did that you wish you hadn't done-

Nico Laqua 27:06 I mean, there, there's a long list there

Harry Stebbings 27:07 ... what was the biggest?

Nico Laqua 27:09 I think, I don't, I don't dwell on mistakes, and I, I think-

Harry Stebbings 27:12 How very Mark Andreessen of you. [laughs]

Nico Laqua 27:14 Yeah, I think [laughs] I think, I think if you dwell on mistakes then, um, then you're, you're... Like I, I, I look more at the victories than, than, than the losses because I think there's more to learn from the victories, and if you can kind of emulate the things that have worked really well, um, again and again-

Harry Stebbings 27:30 There's a brilliant, um, commencement speech by Matthew McConaughey at the University of Texas or University of Houston. Um, and he says, you know, "Study success and the importance of lessons from success." If I were to then flip it and say what success have you studied and what do you learn from it, what would you say that is?

Nico Laqua 27:49 I think that you need to look at the greats, and the greats are, you know, oftentimes outside of, of the context of startups. Like, you know, people like, you know, obviously there's, there's obvious, like, famous startup founders, but I think that, um, you know, looking at everyone from Alexander the Great to Napoleon to, you know, so on and so forth is, is also very informative. Um, because if, if you wanna, like, change the world, if you wanna do something important and, and you don't wanna just be like a memetic copy of everyone else, or you wanna be p- class president or something, that's fine, but if you wanna actually, like, do something big, then, um, then I think that being a student of the greats is great. And, um, you know, the important thing I think is, is probably not copying them, like you should have your own style, but, um, but being a student of history is probably a, a pretty positive thing.

Harry Stebbings 28:38 If I were to ask you what's Corgi's culture in one word, what would you say it is?

Nico Laqua 28:43 We have a culture of winning.

Harry Stebbings 28:45 Winning. That's it?

Nico Laqua 28:47 That's it.

Harry Stebbings 28:47 Okay.

Nico Laqua 28:48 I mean, I, I, I maybe in the past I would've answered like X founder, like hackers, like other things, but I, I, I, I think all that's actually kind of fake and we just like winning.

Harry Stebbings 28:59 How big is the team?

Nico Laqua 29:01 Uh, maybe a bit over 100 now.

Harry Stebbings 29:02 Can you maintain the intensity that you have today when you're at 1,000 people?

Nico Laqua 29:09 Yeah. Easy.

Harry Stebbings 29:11 Really?

Nico Laqua 29:11 I think so.

Harry Stebbings 29:12 Why has no one else been able to do it?

Nico Laqua 29:14 So naturally there, there's, there's roles I think that, that creep in. You know, you get the, like a, a lawyer or an accountant are not gonna work in the same way that, um, you know, a software engineer might. Um, and that's just a fact of life. So, okay, so if they don't wanna work quite as hard, then you just need to hire more of them for the same work output, which is okay. Um, it's just like a, like a return on investment calculation. The, the only reason I can think of i- is, is, um, you know, there, there's some point in which you need to take the, the off-ramp of, of being super hardcore and you need to accept maybe lower growth but less volatility. I personally, at least at, at the current stage I'm at, um, don't mind volatility, is something that I think is, can produce alpha in a lot of ways.

Harry Stebbings 30:00 What would you say to people who say that you're exclusionary in the work culture and that parents couldn't do what you want?

Nico Laqua 30:06 I mean, we have plenty of parents that work at

Nico Laqua 30:08 Corgi, so, um, life's about trade-offs and sacrifices. Um, I think Corgi's a great place to work if you want a sense of community and camaraderie with the people you work with, if you wanna have friends in the workplace, the social life attached to your, to your workplace, if you want your work to be additive to your life as opposed to separate. Um, and that applies whether you're married, whether you have kids, don't have kids. Some of our best people have, have, uh, you know, a lot of children. But if you, if you wanna, you know, clock in and then just check out of, of, of work, then you... Respectfully, there's infinite other jobs you can get, and that's okay. Um, you know, Corgi's not for everyone.

Harry Stebbings 30:43 Do you care about the backlash that you get when you speak about this? I, I get a lot of backlash. Do you?

Nico Laqua 30:48 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get a lot of backlash with the, the death threats and the DMs. Uh, you know, people, people think I'm, I'm nuts.

Harry Stebbings 30:55 Do you care?

Nico Laqua 30:56 Um, not really, no. I, I don't know. I mean, I-

Harry Stebbings 30:58 Have you ever cared?

Nico Laqua 31:00 Yeah, I, I, I don't know. I, I think when you're, when you're a young person, particularly I, I think, uh, young men, you know, don't have, um, that much support within society, and I think it's something of course that, like, weighs on people, particularly if you don't have, um, you know, a lot of external validation or, or credibility yet. Credibility is something that, um, you know, is hard to get, um, which goes back to the, the crisis of legitimacy that I think is, is core to startups. Um-

Harry Stebbings 31:28 Do you think you're legitimate yet? I know that sounds strange.

Nico Laqua 31:33 Um, probably... I mean, so we're, we're, like, more regulated than a bank, and we, we make a lot of revenue and, um, have raised money. Um, I don't think we're quite legit yet. I think we're, we're getting there.

Harry Stebbings 31:45 I think you're legitimate when you're in that you don't get fired for buying IBM. And I would, in my context as a fund, if you're Andreessen or you're, you name these great, like-

Nico Laqua 31:56 Yeah

Harry Stebbings 31:56 ... big, large platforms, you don't get fired as an LP for doing Andreessen.

Nico Laqua 32:00 Right.

Harry Stebbings 32:00 Can't. Like, period.

Nico Laqua 32:01 Yeah. That's probably exactly right. And, um, you know, the, the, the, the thing is, like, in the fund context, you know, Andreessen or, or, or Kleiner or even Sequoia back in the day, you know, at some point they were just a couple guys in some shitty room that, like, didn't really know, like, what they were doing and were making it up as they went along. And they were probably pointing, uh, uh, or not probably, they certainly were pointing at other people and saying, "Oh, one day we'll be legit like them and the institutional, uh, you know, LPs will take us seriously." Um, you know, I, I think it's... It, there, there's always, you know, more legit, right? You can go, go from pension funds to university endowments to, to, to the government. You know, that's the ultimate form of legitimacy, um, probably because, um, the government can just take people's money. Um-

Harry Stebbings 32:49 What are, what are your lessons on paying people? So what I've learned, for example, is that when people ask for more money, they tend to be very good. When they ask for more title, they tend to be very bad. Any lessons on salaries, benchmarking, comp?

Nico Laqua 33:03 I think low cash comp is, is something good, um, generally speaking. I think that, like, who ends up doing extremely well, like, if people are doing well, you need to just, like, give them more, like, equity especially, and, uh, make it so that, like, if they're doing a very simple r- return on investment calculation, that the highest EV thing they can do is, like, work in their, their current role. And if you can't provide that upside, like, there's no reason for them to, like, continue, like, working super hard and they should be doing something else, whether that's working for someone else or starting their own thing or, or whatever. I think separate from kind of the, the comp and the, the simple EV calculation is that you need to actually be, like, solving big problems, and if you're not solving big problems, then, um, no matter how much you pay people, you're not gonna retain them if they're actually good. You know, I th- you can probably split, like, within a- any organization, uh, the team into three. You can have people that are, like, really good, um, people that are, like, you know, kind of fungible and, like, mediocre, and then people that are bad. And I think getting rid of the bad very quickly is, is important, even if it makes a lot of noise.

Harry Stebbings 34:10 Do you keep the mediocre?

Nico Laqua 34:12 I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it like that, but you know, I, I think in any organization there's people that, um, you know, you wouldn't be devastated if they, if, if they left. Um, but-

Harry Stebbings 34:22 It's a brilliant... The, the question I always ask is knowing what you know now, would you hire them again? It's the most important question.

Nico Laqua 34:27 Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people, uh, where, where the, where the answer might be yes, but, um, you know, you're not gonna be sobbing and punching the wall if they're, uh-

Harry Stebbings 34:36 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 34:36 ... if they're no longer with you.

Harry Stebbings 34:37 [laughs] Um, uh, fundraising is a big part of your job as a CEO. You recently raised I think, what, 1.5?

Nico Laqua 34:45 Yeah, 1.3.

Harry Stebbings 34:46 1.3 from TCV.

Nico Laqua 34:47 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 34:47 Love TCV. Love John Doran. Spoke to him before the show. What are your single biggest lessons on fundraising, having raised now across pre-regulated, post-regulated-

Nico Laqua 34:58 Yeah

Harry Stebbings 34:59 ... revenue scaling very fast? What are the most non-obvious lessons you have from raising several hundred million dollars?

Nico Laqua 35:07 Um, you know, I don't know if I'm actually an expert there or anything like that.

Harry Stebbings 35:10 Do you think you're a good fundraiser?

Nico Laqua 35:12 I think I'm all right at it. I, I've, I've had to do it for years now, so I think if you have to do anything for years, you, you get good at it.

Harry Stebbings 35:17 What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started?

Nico Laqua 35:19 Yeah, when I started, my pitch was not very good. Like, I remember my first pitch. Um, you know, I, I, I, like, took a red-eye.

Harry Stebbings 35:25 Who was it to?

Nico Laqua 35:26 [laughs] Um, who was my first pitch? Probably First Round Capital was my f- my first pitch.

Harry Stebbings 35:31 Okay.

Nico Laqua 35:31 From way back in the day, the very first VC I ever talked to was at Google Ventures. Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, my first pitch for Corgi I think was maybe First Round Capital, and I remember I, I, like, took a red-eye the night before. I had, like, you know... I, I, my eyes were actually red. I looked like I was high or something. I was, like, so n- so nervous 'cause we had to get $5 million and we had like 24 hours. Or, uh, I flew back on Thursday night. Um, you know, I, I was like, "Oh, we'll get the money to you in a couple days. Like, you know how the banks are. It'll take some time to transfer them, transfer the money." Um, so I, I s- I started pitching Friday. We had Saturday, Sunday, and had to get the money by Monday. And, um, and you know, I, I think the pitch was not, was not very good, honestly. It was... I, I think it was a lot of like, like, "Just trust me." I wasn't telling them the name of the insurance carrier 'cause I was afraid they'd, like, call them and ruin it. Um, I think the f- the first set of pitches I did weren't, weren't that good. The, the, the, the, the thing about-

Harry Stebbings 36:29 And you were raising two on 10?

Nico Laqua 36:30 We were raising, uh, five on, uh, 28 with that one. Um, and that was 2024, so that wasn't, wasn't super easy.

Harry Stebbings 36:38 That was recently. What was that, two years ago?

Nico Laqua 36:41 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 36:41 What was the best VC meeting you had?

Nico Laqua 36:44 The worst are when it's, like, super structured, when they start asking me, like, BS about, like, our, like, balance sheet or, like, you know, they get in the nitty-gritty. I'm, I'm, I'm not that type of guy. Um, I think that the best ones tend to be when someone is, like, very, like, growth-minded or product-minded, and, uh, we just get to vibe about, like, where we're going and, and, like, how we're gonna win. Um, I think when they're, like, you know-

Harry Stebbings 37:07 So what was the best VC meeting that didn't invest?

Nico Laqua 37:09 I've had plenty of great ones that didn't invest.

Harry Stebbings 37:12 Give me one.

Nico Laqua 37:12 I'm not gonna put them on the spot-

Harry Stebbings 37:13 Oh

Nico Laqua 37:13 ... 'cause they might, they might invest later on.

Harry Stebbings 37:15 Ah, okay. What was the worst?

Nico Laqua 37:18 Oh, I've had some really bad ones.

Harry Stebbings 37:19 Have you had some really bad ones?

Nico Laqua 37:20 I've had some super bad ones.

Harry Stebbings 37:20 What, what was the worst?

Nico Laqua 37:22 I've had people, like especially the first round, like, like the early stage investors are disrespectful. I've, I've had people driving, I've had people flossing their teeth on the meeting, you know, like, like chowing down food, like, like, like barbecue ribs or something where it's like getting all over their face. I've, I've seen it all. Um-

Harry Stebbings 37:39 What do you say? [laughs]

Nico Laqua 37:40 [laughs]

Harry Stebbings 37:40 I'm like, "Please finish flossing. It's okay." Like-

Nico Laqua 37:42 Yeah, I had one on a FaceTime where the guy was like hitting his vape, and I thought he was asleep, 'cause he just had his eyes closed, like leaning against the wall.

Harry Stebbings 37:49 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 37:49 I've had some like crazy pitches, particularly at the early stage.

Harry Stebbings 37:52 What are your biggest advice to founders on price? Price is a difficult one.

Nico Laqua 37:57 Yeah. I, I, I think price, Brian Chesky told me one time to never take the highest price, and I've taken that to heart. So we never take the highest price ever. Um, I, I think, I think that that's just a good rule of thumb. Like, we always go with like the second or third highest price. I don't do a lot of negotiating on price. I just kind of see where the market's at, and then, um, if something seems reasonable, I just stick with it. And, uh, you know, we could raise all of our rounds at higher prices, but we never do.

Harry Stebbings 38:23 How long does it take to raise rounds for you normally?

Nico Laqua 38:26 Couple days at most. Um, uh, if you're in the market for a long time, it's, it's a, it's a bad thing, and, um, it's a bad thing. Maybe it's a good thing for your, like valuation or for the amount of money you're raising or funds you're raising from. But I think it's a bad thing for the company, because you, you start to optimize for like selling equity instead of like selling your goods and services. Um, and fundraising is like super distracting. It's not quite as bad as audits after you like get the term sheet, but like, um, you know, it, it, it is pretty distracting.

Harry Stebbings 38:54 Couple of days at most.

Nico Laqua 38:56 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 38:57 I, I hear you. I'm on the other side of that deal, and I'm like, "Dude, I'm with you. You don't wanna do it. I don't wanna be in a fundraise process with you either." But I do wanna get to know you, and I do want you to know me.

Nico Laqua 39:10 Well, V- VCs always say that, but the thing is, they could put in the work to get to know you, but they never do. And, uh, and I think that that's just like-

Harry Stebbings 39:18 I don't, so again, this is interesting, 'cause like we're totally on the other side of the table. We fucking try, and you know what we get? "Thanks so much for your email. We're heads down."

Nico Laqua 39:28 Oh, heads down. Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 39:28 Well, what the fuck?

Nico Laqua 39:29 I am, I am heads down.

Harry Stebbings 39:29 So what is, I want-

Nico Laqua 39:30 'Cause if you're, if you're working on an important deal that's gonna like double your, your, your revenue, the last thing you wanna do is meet with some VC. Like-

Harry Stebbings 39:37 I get it, but then he- help me understand.

Nico Laqua 39:40 You, you know what an investor told me one time, actually? He said, uh, "Good companies get deals done." And, um, at first I was mad. I was like kinda pissed to hear that. Like, it was like, you know, like a, like a backhanded, like a, it wasn't even a compliment, I guess. It was just an insult. Um, he was implying that we weren't a good company was we weren't getting deals done. And, um, you know, I, I've actually taken it to heart, 'cause I think it's true. Good companies do get deals done. And w- since then, we've like shifted our approach, and we've started getting deals done. You know, we've stopped being such absolutists, and we move with haste. Time kills all deals. And we like, as a company, we like get deals done. Like, that's the key. And, um, I think that, you know, it, a, a venture capital firm, um, it's, it's a lot of things. It's a brand. It's a, you know, maybe a, a lifestyle business. Um, it's cer- [laughs] um, but one thing it certainly is, is a company. And, um, you know, good companies get deals done, and I think that applies to, to venture capital firms, too. Some deals, um, you know, are made in, in, in times of crisis. Um, I, I, I think the, the, the venture deals that I respect, uh, most of all are the ones that I hear about from my funds, where their company was not doing well at all, and, um, and, and a VC came in and, and saved them. And the amount of gratitude I think that like founders have for something like that is, is extreme. And, uh, the amount of courage it takes to do like something where the company might be contentious or controversial, or the metrics might be going in the wrong direction, not the right direction, you know, th- that, that type of, uh, behavior I think is, is, uh, is, is, is hard. And, um, and I think doing the hard thing in venture is, uh, is, is, is, is rare, unfortunately. Um, but-

Harry Stebbings 41:19 But genuinely, then, you would rather do a deal with someone you don't really know if it's in a few days.

Nico Laqua 41:25 I mean, one thing I know about them is they can get deals done quickly, right? That, that's their element.

Harry Stebbings 41:29 Sure, but they can also be assholes.

Nico Laqua 41:31 That's true, and we've, I, you know, I've, I've had plenty of bad investors in my life. Um, bad investor is much worse than no investor, and it's hard to get rid of them. The thing is, um, you know, if, if you're, if you're doing well, and if you're pricing your company cheap, and if you go out to market, you can get a deal done very quickly. It's just the fact. And why would you waste time doing that?

Harry Stebbings 41:50 Do you think you price your deal, your company cheaply?

Nico Laqua 41:53 Yeah. We price all of our deals cheaply.

Harry Stebbings 41:55 Why?

Nico Laqua 41:56 I mean, people might not think that when they see, like our, our stuff posted, but I think, you know, we, every round that we raise, we could raise at a higher valuation. I'm very sure of that.

Harry Stebbings 42:05 Are you not doing a disservice to your existing investors by not?

Nico Laqua 42:08 I don't think so. They all got good deals, too.

Harry Stebbings 42:11 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 42:12 You know, if we, if we were a public company, we'd probably be worth, uh, less, 'cause the, the, the public markets don't know how to evaluate high growth or potential.

Harry Stebbings 42:21 Well, talk to me about that.

Nico Laqua 42:22 Yeah. I mean, look, look at, look at the financial services company on the p- companies on the public markets. They're all terrible. They all don't grow. But they, you know, they're, they're good from like a-

Harry Stebbings 42:31 So are they mispriced, or are they actually accurately priced 'cause they don't grow and they have poor margins?

Nico Laqua 42:35 I mean, some of them have good margins. Um, you know, they make money. Um, you know, I, I think that, uh, private markets feel to me like, like they're a, a vehicle for, for valuing growth. Um, whereas public markets feel like they're a vehicle for, for valuing, like cash flow. In the past, we'd call, like dividend stocks. And, uh, you know, maybe that's, that's not so favorable, um, you know, if you're looking for, for asymmetric, uh, upside, uh, and, and are an investor, because you don't have access to, you know, private deals as much. But certainly from a company perspective-

Harry Stebbings 43:10 Do you not think at some point all companies are aembodiment of their future free cash flow. That is what a company valuation is

Nico Laqua 43:18 There's certainly value in, in, uh-- No, I, I, I don't think so because, I mean, maybe at some terminal point, like from a theoretical perspective, but brand is worth something and identity is worth something. You know? Like why, why do you buy a, a Rolex watch instead of a, a Chinese copy of a Rolex watch? They, they might be the same materials or the same whatever. Um, both tell the time.

Harry Stebbings 43:43 If I gave you unlimited money, what would you do that you're not doing today? So for an example, I'd be on the side of an F1 car. I would be opening Japan

Nico Laqua 43:55 I mean, if, if you, if you had unlimited money, I think you'd have, uh, you know, bigger things to do than, than be on the side of an F1 car.

Harry Stebbings 44:01 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 44:01 Um, right? But, um, I mean, there, there's a lot of things I'd, I'd love to do. Um, like I think within the context of Corgi, um, like every single like super, super regulated like financial institution type where right now it's like run on like fax machines and with like boomers. Like we'd like to like, you know, have those not waste people's time and, and charge less fees and, you know, m-make everything a little more protected and a little more efficient and a little more profitable. Um, I think outside of that context, um, like I'm a, I'm a techno-optimist. I, I believe very strongly in the power of technology to make the world a better place across a wide variety of like industry sectors. Corgi is a, a bet mostly on like the most regulated sectors, but, um, I think that there's very few problems that technology can't solve and, um, and, and probably there's, you know, a, a lot of areas that are exciting like in medicine and, and mental health. Um, I think and, and, you know, there, there's crises in a lot of like concurrent areas where I think technology can make things a lot better.

Harry Stebbings 45:04 What role do we not have today that you think we will have and be very commonplace in five years' time?

Nico Laqua 45:10 I don't know if it's like a role in

Nico Laqua 45:12 particular, but I think that, um, that actually AI makes sales and marketing much more important, um, than, than it was in the past. And, uh, in, in the past I think if you had a, like a really rock solid, like super hardcore engineering and product team, you could come out with something that would just like blow everyone away. It'd be faster, it'd be better. Um, now you can make something faster and better and, um, you know, if you don't have people to sell it or to market it or to tell people that it exists, um, it's not really worth the whole lot. And, um, I think the, the like organic network effects around, um, particularly B2B product, uh, launches, um, just don't really exist in the same way that they used to.

Harry Stebbings 45:55 Do you think traditional B2B marketing is good?

Nico Laqua 45:58 I think traditional B2B sales is good. I think marketing is awful.

Harry Stebbings 46:01 Why?

Nico Laqua 46:02 Um, you know, there's a lot that B2B could learn from consumer. Um, I think that like the, the conferences are not it. Like I, I'm, I'm not a fan of, you know, going and hanging out with a bunch of like sweaty like people in like a room. Like I don't, I don't really like that. I, I think that like consumer companies are, have, have, you know, perfected marketing and B2B companies have perfected sales and, uh, much like in a company where you have like a dominant product how that kind of becomes the company and like it's hard to like really care that much about auxiliary revenue streams. Um, you know, as, as an industry, um, if you're selling B2B products, like you're gonna get very good at sales and marketing will tend to be an afterthought in most instances.

Harry Stebbings 46:45 I do wanna move into a quick fire where I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

Nico Laqua 46:50 Yeah. Sure.

Harry Stebbings 46:51 So I think changing one's mind is important. What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

Nico Laqua 46:56 There's a lot I've changed my mind on. Um, you, you know, I, I, I, I think I've, I've grown to value experience a lot more. Um, in, in the, in the past, um, you know, I've, I've probably made certain statements around, uh, you know, boomers being slow and bad or, or, or, you know, like I've, I've, I've definitely, uh, you know, probably undervalued, um, people that have been doing something for a long time. Um, because a lot of times there's like these like little nuances or edge cases that, um, when you do something for a long time, you, you pick up and maybe you're not as fast or as efficient or as, as, you know, able to use the latest tools, but there's an extraordinary amount of knowledge that, uh, lives in, in, in kind of the older generations, especially the retiring ones. And I think it's a big problem, uh, in that there's, there's trillions of dollars to make getting that knowledge out and putting it inside of, um, inside of computers that can think and talk.

Harry Stebbings 47:57 [laughs]

Nico Laqua 47:57 Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I don't think I, I viewed those problems in, in, in that lens. Uh, you know, I, I think I just considered, uh, you know, old people using fax machines moving at two miles per hour, uh, to be like, you know, something uniformly bad. But now I see that there's value in their knowledge.

Harry Stebbings 48:14 Who do you not have on the board that you would most like to have on the board?

Nico Laqua 48:18 I don't like boards.

Harry Stebbings 48:19 Why?

Nico Laqua 48:20 I believe in executive decision-making. You know, our board's great and yada, yada, yada, all the disclaimers. But I think you just need to be able to decide and you need to be able to do things. And like you think Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg are caring what their board thinks or their board-- You know, you think that they're like, "All right, guys, let's huddle up. Let's like make a decision." Like every committee decision I think is like BS. Like sometimes you need to be able to take an unpopular stance, and you just need to be able to plant your flag in the ground.

Harry Stebbings 48:46 But is the board a check the box?

Nico Laqua 48:48 I think so a little bit. Like it's, you know, a little theatrical. I guess it is-- it's good to make sure you're not like a scam or like doing like blatantly illegal stuff. But I mean, if, if management is like unethical or unscrupulous enough to scam people or do illegal stuff, then, um, they're gonna do it anyways probably with or without a board, and that's a management problem.

Harry Stebbings 49:07 You can buy OpenAI or Anthropic today both at the same price, $900. Which one do you choose?

Nico Laqua 49:14 Yeah. I'm gonna get in trouble for this probably,

Nico Laqua 49:16 but, um, the, I guess the disclaimer is, um, this might be a stated preference versus a r- a revealed preference.Um, given that we spend maybe like $400,000 per month on, on Anthropic and $0 on OpenAI at the moment. Um, but I think that like spiritually, like OpenAI is, um, is, is I, I guess a little more pure, um, because they kind of created, you know, this idea of like a AI lab as a company, um, dating all the way back to YC Research. And, um, you know, Anthropic is a result of, you know, employees that didn't like the management or the direction. There were complaints about profit and ethics and all this other stuff. And, um, and, you know, the, the EA movement and all of that. And, um, you know, I, I, I think when you're like... when your origins are, are that, um, impure, it, it's, it's a little hard to, to, you know, to, to overtake, uh, to overtake the king. And, uh, you know, right now, um, Anthropic, frankly speaking, has been out-executing OpenAI. Their product's much better. Um, you know, we, we, we use the best product in, in every category, at least fr- from a, from an enterprise or like workflow automation perspective. Um, Anthropic's better, so OpenAI needs to lock in. But-

Harry Stebbings 50:29 How easy is it for you to switch back?

Nico Laqua 50:32 Um, I don't think it'd be that hard. Um, although, uh, you know, all, all of the labs are always trying to make us sign contracts, and if they give us a big enough discount on, on tokens, then, uh, we'd, we'd, we'd consider it.

Harry Stebbings 50:42 What is no one talking about that you're spending more and more time thinking about?

Nico Laqua 50:48 To me, there's good companies and there's, and there's, you know, everyone else. And, um, I think the number of good companies is very small. And a good company wants to win, is like world historic, will be talked about in like 100 years. Those companies, you know, there's just not many of them because people don't wanna win. They don't wanna put in the work. They don't wanna... You know, and that's okay. Like, it's okay to be average and part of the mediocre masses or whatever. That's all right. Um, but I think that the, the kind of, uh, cultural, um, you know, uh, or internal, um, kind of character of the companies that are good companies, um, is something that's not appreciated enough. Like from a, from a, you know, a, a, a metaphysical level, there's a really big difference between Anduril and like Anthropic, right? Those are like super different, uh, companies. And, um, I think, I think both those could be good companies. Um, but I, I don't think people really understand, um, the philosophy behind, um, the management teams that they're investing in.

Harry Stebbings 51:49 Who do you think is the most underappreciated CEO today? When you look at your style, who most aligns to your style?

Nico Laqua 51:56 Well, my, my style is my own style. I try to just, try to just do me. I think there's plenty of super underappreciated, uh, CEOs that like... One area where I think to, to more, more than kind of venture-backed companies, what, what I would love to see more of, um, are venture funds, um, you know, speaking out about, um, about these sort of important topics. And I know like, like startup founders love to clown on VCs for chiming in about like topics that they might not know a lot about, but I think that venture funds are actually in, you know, despite the fact that they're, you know, need to raise from LPs and LPs, you know, can crack the whip or whatever, um, like I think that venture funds are in a really strong position to influence the way that the startup ecosystem looks, um, because they're setting the incentives and, uh, incentives often drive behavior. And, um, I, I would lo- One thing I would love to see are the, the CEOs or the people that, that are running venture funds, um, actually take an a- a more active stance, um, in, in aligning their, their, you know, deployed capital with what the changes that they'd like to see in the world. And, um, and to me that- that's, that's perhaps a more important issue than like any particulars company... any particular company's, uh, CEO or management team broadly speaking.

Harry Stebbings 53:14 Would you blame

Harry Stebbings 53:15 VCs for the dramatic increase we've seen in fraud, especially around ARR? You know, we put so much emphasis on zero to 100 million in X amount of time.

Nico Laqua 53:25 Yeah, I mean-

Harry Stebbings 53:25 No wonder founders lie. [chuckles]

Nico Laqua 53:27 I, I mean, I, I think like a lot of the issues with fraud we've seen are downstream of like credentialism or that quest for like legitimacy in a lot of ways. Um, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna speak about specific frauds, but I'm sure some come to mind that kind of check those boxes. I, I think VCs are, are partially responsible but, um, you know, uh, as a venture investor, after you invest in a company, there's very little you can do. So if the management is unscrupulous, is, is, you know, is, uh, is gonna be scamming people or their product doesn't actually work or whatever, then I, I don't think you're really responsible for that management team, um, you know, committing fraud. Um, I think on the extreme you have... Like if you go back in time a couple years, a lot of the crypto investors would encourage, uh, company founders to take on quite a lot of personal liability, including criminal liability in many cases. Um, and, you know, basically they'd be like arbitraging that and like pumping the, the tokens or whatever. Um, and, you know, that was pr- in hindsight I guess that was the wrong type of tokens to work on. Um, but, you know, and, and I think in those cases probably venture investors bear more responsibility, but like I think that people blaming like, you know, YC or whatever for, for, for, uh, some of their companies being frauds, um, is probably not like directionally correct because like internally it's not like any venture fund really wants to like invest in a fraud and people that are like doing these things, um, they're very good at wrapping it up and disguising it in such a way that, that it will pass muster, especially w- if a, a round, uh, is moving quick which most good companies rounds do.

Harry Stebbings 55:06 Who was your first believer with Corgi?

Nico Laqua 55:09 Uh, it was probably Jared Friedman from YC. Yeah. There's been times where he was our only believer. You know, everyone else is a doubter, is a naysayer. Um, but Jared, Jared's always been there for us.

Harry Stebbings 55:18 Would you do YC again?

Nico Laqua 55:20 Yeah, I'd do it again.

Harry Stebbings 55:21 Final thing for you. What are you most excited for when you look forward to the next 10 years? What are you like, "This I can't wait for"?

Nico Laqua 55:29 You know, it, it's a, it's a little hard to say because if you, if you asked that 10 years ago, um, the technology that people were really excited about didn't exist yet, right? Um, it was only late 2022 that people actually started getting, uh, with ChatGPT 3.5 that large language models were obviously very important and very exciting. I think like within the, the next 10 years technology will solve a lot of, a lot of problems. Perhaps it'll create some too, but I think it'll solve a lot more than it creates and I think that there's certain areas where venture investing hasn't worked before where, um, where there could be like category defining, um, outcomes and where there could be, um, you know, new, uh, kind of industries where, where smart people are actually interested in going into. Um, like biology is one that comes to mind. Um, and um, I s- really strongly believe that, um, you know, we're gonna probably see more like ChatGPT moments, um, you know, maybe, maybe a couple years from now that, uh, that will really shake things up.

Harry Stebbings 56:30 Dude, I have to say it's been so wonderful having you on the show. As I said at the beginning, uh, some of my most unpopular beliefs, uh, you align with completely and so it's nice to have a kindred, uh, friend. Thank you so much for joining me today, man.

Nico Laqua 56:43 Yeah. Thanks for having me