The Twenty Minute VCThe Most Intense Workplace Culture in America | The Journey from $0 to $2.6BN Valuation
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,846 words- 0:00 – 1:14
Intro
- NLNico Laqua
If your days off happen to be Saturday and Sunday every week, then you will not have a place at Corgi. I don't sleep a lot. I think the average night, probably three to four hours.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So you literally live in the office?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I have a mattress there and-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Would you rather Corgi was a trillion-dollar company, but you died at 50, or it was a fail and you lived till you were 80?
- NLNico Laqua
I mean, I think the answer to that is pretty easy.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Welcome to Corgi Insurance, the most insane workplace culture in America. Joining me in the hot seat today, their co-founder and CEO, Nico, who just closed their latest funding round, valuing them at a whopping $2.5 billion.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I mean, I get a lot of backlash, the death threats in the DMs. People think I'm nuts. I think the number of good companies is very small.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Ready to go? [upbeat music] Nico, dude, I am so excited for this. I was more excited, I have to admit, for this than I am almost any other show in the way that, one, I think we align, and two, I think we align on something that's rather different. Um, and so, one, thank you for joining me, dude.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I'm often struck with great CEOs.
- 1:14 – 3:37
Fear of Losing vs Hunger to Win
- HSHarry Stebbings
What is it that motivates you? Is it the fear of losing, or is it the thrill of winning?
- NLNico Laqua
I think you can't be afraid of losses. Um, losses are, like, beautiful because, um, you know, you, you can have asymmetric upside with winning, so I think you, you have to love winning, um, and you have to love the victories. Um, and, um, yeah, I think, I think Jeff Bezos, he, he said something a number of years ago that has always really stuck with me, um, in that, um, uh, he, he gave it, it, it as a baseball analogy, I guess very American, but, um, you know, in baseball, um, there's four bases, and you can score a maximum of... or there's three bases and, and the home plate, but you can score a maximum of four runs when, when you're at bat. Um, so if, if you go up to bat and every single time you swing, you try to, like, you know, hit the ball out of the park, that's a losing strategy in baseball a lot of the time because upside is capped. You know, you have, you have maximum of four runs, but your, your probability of striking out, of, of scoring nothing is, is quite high. Um, in business, it doesn't quite work like that because instead of four runs resulting from a home run, a home run might result in, in actually infinite upside. Um, it might result in something like AWS popping out of nowhere. Um, so, um, I, I, I really think, like, seeking asymmetric upside or, or, or infinite upside, uncapped upside with capped downside is the core of business and taking a lot of shots on goal. And if you look at, um, kind of people, uh, who, who started important things, not every single thing they did worked. Like Napoleon was the best general of all time, but he didn't win every single battle. You know, he won more battles than, than average, cer- certainly more, more than most other generals. But, um, I, I don't know. I, I, I think the, the fear of losing can't really motivate you because otherwise you'd just become this, like, uh, this creature afraid of, uh, you know, doing anything.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I totally agree. I spoke to Josh Young on your team, and he said that, "Nico is probably the most aggressive person I've ever met. He sets goals that might seem unrealistic to others." When you think about the most aggressive thing you've done, I was gonna ask you, what did you do that was too aggressive? But I actually get asked shit like that all the time, and I think that's totally the wrong framing because nothing's too aggressive. And, uh, so I'm gonna ask you instead, what were you not aggressive enough on with the benefit of hindsight?
- NLNico Laqua
I think going to, to university,
- 3:37 – 7:34
Going to University Was My Biggest Mistake
- NLNico Laqua
going to college, that was a, a, a big mistake.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- NLNico Laqua
Y- you know, if, if you wanna do big things, you need to go out in the wilderness a little bit and be humbled. You need to kind of, uh, metaphorically get beat up. Um, you need to, you know, go, go through the lows before you go through the highs. And, um, you know, I, I, I wasted some amount of time in my life, uh, doing that for sure.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you, do you think university carries less weight than ever today?
- NLNico Laqua
I don't know if it carries less weight or more weight or... I, you know, I, I don't really think about that because you kinda make your own weight in life. And it's kind of an interesting point because startups are fundamentally, I think about, like, a crisis of legitimacy, where, um, you know... And, and that was a big problem in, like, the, the Roman Empire, right? Like it was a, a non-hereditary monarchy. You know, the, the emperors weren't inheriting any legitimacy, so if they were a bit crap, you could just kill them and then, you know, replace them with the next guy. And I think startups are a little bit like that, where there's not, like, some inherent loyalty. You know, there's no reason to work for this company or that company. There's no, uh, you know, blood ties. There's no inherited structure. And, um, and you can just go out and make your own. So, um, I think the process of, like, going through a company is just kind of, um, you know, you know, building that legitimacy, and I think that's why people try to point to things like the idea of tier one investors, um, you know, a- as a way to borrow that, that, that legitimacy. So, um, you know, uh, the, the universities I, I suppose the, the, the point is to give a credential that, that carries some legitimacy, otherwise you, you wouldn't do it. Um, or, you know, you can learn all the material online. You can learn all the material with an LLM much better than you can, uh, from some professor. Um, but I, I, I, I, I don't think, um, the, the, the credential of a university actually, uh, conveys the legitimacy that it ought to. Um, I think it's a bit too naked, you know, and on, on the nose.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It almost reminds me of Marc Andreessen where he says essentially when a company is invested in by a fund, the fund is loaning them the brand and the validity that the brand name of the fund has until the company is big enough where then it transitions, and Corgi then loans the brand to Kanye or to JD at TCV, and it's the other way around. Do you see what I mean? It's like the legitimacy of brand.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he also says, "Do you wanna be liked, or do you wanna win?" So I think if you talk to a lot of founders, there's often a perception that, that capital is fungible. You know, what we're seeing with kind of the, the, the perception of funds and the idea of value add and, and, and tiers of investors is that, uh, perhaps capital isn't so fungible after all and, and I-
- HSHarry Stebbings
What makes you say that?
- NLNico Laqua
You know, like I, I don't think-Apple, Apple was invested in by Sequoia, but I, I, I think it'd be very unlikely that Steve Jobs would ever go, you know, flexing that Apple was a Sequoia company. You know, that would feel very strange. Uh, that'd be very unusual. But, but now, you know, it's, it's, it's not unusual to, uh, to, to, when describing a company, say it's a, it's a, a Tier 1 company or it's a YC company or it's a this company or that company, with the descriptor being their investors, um, to signify something about the way that the, the, the company, you know, acts or ought to be. And, um, and it's a bit unusual because y- w- you know, people will say that out of one side of their mouth, then the other side of their mouth they'll acknowledge that when they invest in companies, they can't do anything about their investment. You know, like, if, if, if the, if the team's incompetent or if they're making bad decisions, then that's a really hard thing to, to solve.
- HSHarry Stebbings
No, that is 100% true. Um, I, I have to ask you, you said there, you know, do you wanna win or do you wanna be liked? Um, you and I both have a theory around work and work ethic and what it takes to win that's not always popular. Can you help me understand, you work seven days a week at the company-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and the company is expected to work seven days a week.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can you help me understand why that is and how you thought through that as a decision?
- NLNico Laqua
If y- if you're solving the most important
- 7:34 – 8:57
Working 7 Days a Week
- NLNico Laqua
problems or if you wanna, like, dream big and, like, scale up your ambition, like, like, let's presuppose that, that, um, you wanna do something big and not small. Whatever you can get done in, in, in five days, I promise you you'll get more done in six and seven and so on and so forth. And, um, and I think that, like, if you're doing a startup and, and you're serious about it and you want to win, you wanna do the biggest possible things, you want a sense of community and camaraderie and, and have, you know, brothers and sisters in arms with the people you're working with, then, um, you know, y- you should go all out. You shouldn't do the, the, you know, half-assing it. If five days, why not four or three or two or one, right? Like, you can, you know... I, I, I think you should just, if you're doing something, you should do it properly.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you not believe in the benefits of rest, then? I, I'm, I'm 100% with you on the work ethic and I, I do actually think having a day off can be helpful. Like, do you not think that rest does carry benefits?
- NLNico Laqua
I, I mean, for some people, if they wanna take a day off, they should take a day off, but there's nothing about, you know, the weekend I think that signifies-
- HSHarry Stebbings
But they wouldn't have a place at Corgi?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, you know, you can take a day off every now and then. It's, that's all right. But if, if your, you know, if your days off happen to be Saturday and Sunday every week, then you will not have a place at Corgi. Um.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Dude, how does that go down in hiring? Like, I would love to be able to do that, and you could say, "Harry, you could do that."
- NLNico Laqua
You can just say it and say,
- 8:57 – 12:42
How Work Trials Filter Out the Wrong People
- NLNico Laqua
"Why? Because we wanna build the biggest thing ever, and if you wanna build the biggest thing ever, you need to win. And if you wanna win, then..." Actually, it's something that I think attracts the right type of person and it absolutely repels the wrong type of person because particularly for young people, I think there's a lot of, you know, people that wanna dream big. They wanna do something big with their lives and important with their lives. And if you wanna do something important with your lives, you're gonna do it a lot and you're gonna win. And, uh, if you wanna be a winner, if you wanna be a killer, then, um, you know, sure, you, you can, you can, you know, do that for 30 minutes a day, um, but I, I think doing it all the time is better.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you have people who turn up to, you know, interview processes and think it's, it's kind of it-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... but don't realize the intensity?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I mean, we, yeah, we have everyone do work trials, so that, that scares some off. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
What do you mean work trials?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Like, I think it's really important. People need to know what they're getting into on, you know, on both sides. So b- before people come in, uh, we really like to have them kind of like, you know, do kind of mock work for, for one or several days, especially if it's over the weekend and then they see the office full. That, that helps them very quickly learn that, um, we're not joking around.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That's a benefit of actually working weekends is people can do it in their jobs without taking time off-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, it makes it-
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and be very easy
- NLNico Laqua
... it, it does make it easy to poach.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What in a work trial impresses you most versus turns you off most? 'Cause it is tough in a two-day trial to have much impact. You're onboarding and whatever.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I mean, the soft skills matter I think more than the hard skills for me because if someone really wants it, if, if they're, like, all in and if they want to, like, do the maximum, the maximally hard thing, the ambitious thing, uh, with their lives and they actually wanna go all in, then, um, you normally can find a, a place for s- for, for someone like that. And it might not be exactly what they, you know, are applying for or what they, they, they think they're gonna be doing, um, but I, I, I don't know. I, I, I think you should just solve, solve hard problems. You should do hard things. And you can kind of tell if someone's into that or if they're into checking in and checking out.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What questions do you find most revealing when you're interviewing people?
- NLNico Laqua
I like to ask people what matters to them and why. I think that they tend to answer that honestly.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you find money is an alarming response? If I said to you, "I'm just hungry to make money, dude. I wanna make money for my family," do you mind?
- NLNico Laqua
I mean, I, I, I don't necessarily mind. That normally comes from a certain place-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mm
- NLNico Laqua
... I think. Um, like, to me, that answer normally, uh, would reveal that someone didn't have a lot of money. I think my answer for that is probably a little different, but I don't find that to be necessarily alarming. Although, I, I think that, um, being extremely mone- money motivated leads you to short-term, like, uh, like, local minimum, lo- local maximums, um, that, um, that don't actually result in the most money being made.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What is your answer to that? If it's not the money... We, we were chatting earlier. Y- your sacrifice is unwavering to this business. We'll get onto more of it. W- what is the reason if it's not money?
- NLNico Laqua
I want to build, um, the most important company in the world. Um, I want to, you know, win. I admire the greats. I ver- very much want to join them. I think that as people living in this, like, time and, and circumstance, you know, we're subject to the world historical conditions in which we're in. If we were alive, um, you know, 200 years ago, we'd probably be generals, like, fighting some sort of wars or something, and that would be very simple. The winning would just mean, uh, you know, killing your enemies, and unfortunately you can't do that, um, anymore. Um, so I think the, the next best thing and, and, and where we're at now is that-Um, you can actually in a positive some way like make a, a, a really big difference in the world. So I want us to always be solving the hardest problems possible, and, uh, I wanna win. I wanna add value.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I heard from one of your investors
- 12:42 – 12:49
Why Nico Wants to Build the Most Important Company in the World
- HSHarry Stebbings
that you live in the office.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What, what does that look like? Do you actually live in the office?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I think...
- 12:49 – 22:04
He Actually Lives in the Office
- NLNico Laqua
I, you know, I, I think it's one thing to say like, "Oh, why don't you guys work seven days a week?" And you're on like some yacht somewhere like, like hanging out like, uh [laughs] like or, or, or at Ibiza or something. Um, it's another thing if you're actually like putting in the work. So I, I think symbols often really matter, you know, like the, the cosmetic stuff, like having a sign on the building or, um, you know.
- HSHarry Stebbings
We're gonna get to the sign dude, don't worry.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Um, like the cosmetic stuff, like I, I think it does matter, like symbolism matters. There's a reason why, um, you know, uh, governments and, and religions and, and, and all of the really important things tend to care a lot about symbols. You know, the flag's very important and all that. I, I, I think that the, the, the, the symbolism around like working hard, um, like is, is quite different, like leading the troops from the front line versus like saying, "Oh, why don't you guys work hard and, and, and, and I won't." Um, so-
- HSHarry Stebbings
So you literally live in the office?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Yeah. I have a mattress there and, and that sort of thing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs]
- NLNico Laqua
I, I, I don't spend every single night there anymore, um, because I, I used to shower at, uh, only the, the, the Equinox like one street over, and they, they closed very early, like 8:00 PM on, on Fridays, so that was unpleasant. We don't have an- a shower in, in our SF office. Our London office actually has a shower, so.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah, I had this in... Uh, founder's room. Is that what it's called?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, people-- Some people have called it that, but is... Nor- normally people just say, "Oh, it's Nico's room."
- HSHarry Stebbings
I got founder's room, showers at Equinox, works every waking hour. How long do you sleep for?
- NLNico Laqua
I, I don't sleep a lot. I think the average night, um, couple hours, probably three to four hours. But I... Some, some nights I, I, I really do make an effort to try to sleep a little more 'cause I find I'm a bit more-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Have you ever, have you ever had health scares?
- NLNico Laqua
Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
'Cause like candidly, I, I, I give everything to this. Um, I have psoriasis and I had heart palpitations-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... because I was just so all in, and I still am, but I do have to like monitor my sleep actually is the one thing I really-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I, I think sleep is important and I encourage people to sleep a lot. Um, I, I don't know. I, I, I think I would rather like measure my lifespan in victories than, than years. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm maximizing, uh, that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Like this is a hard question. Would you rather Corgi was a trillion-dollar company but you died at 50 or it was a fail and you lived till you were 80?
- NLNico Laqua
I mean, I think the answer to that is pretty easy. Um, because if I'm dying either way, you know. But for, for now, life is short. Um, we'll see what happens. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
It, it, it reminds me of Olympians though. I don't know if you've ever seen this study whereas like they say, "Would you rather live 10 years less but have a gold medal?" And 98% of them said unwaveringly yes.
- NLNico Laqua
You, you need to want it and that, that's presupposing that, that death is coming either way, which you never know.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs] If Brian Johnson has his way. Uh, you said if you're not... If you're gonna be a hyper-growth startup and you're not working weekends, you're basically just quiet quitting.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. I, I, I strongly believe that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But you're the only one doing it, aren't you?
- NLNico Laqua
I don't know. I mean, I, uh, if, if you, if you visit, um, very high growth AI companies, at least in San Francisco, um, you know, the offices are pretty full on the weekends. Um, and, uh, I don't think it's a coincidence.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs] It's easy to look at this and go like, and people will, "So unfair, harsh." You also have a chef seven days a week.
- NLNico Laqua
Not anymore.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay. Talk to me about that. Why did you decide to have a chef seven days a week and why do you not now?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. So, um, I, I, I loved our chef. I thought she was really great. Um, I think that just like ordering food is a little more, um, like logistically, uh, easy. Um, I, I think having food in the office is actually important and, um, be- because otherwise people like lose a lot of time like going out and like getting food and like coming back. It's just very inefficient and, you know, people need to think about like where they're going to buy the food and it's just, you know, extra like cognitive load. You know, you're, you're, you're, you're spending more time like doing that than you are doing something that's, that's high leverage. Um, you know, I, I think... I, I really dislike the culture of like pampering everyone or like taking care of them as if you're, you're their parents. I think Google is like the worst of that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Did it feel like you were pampering them when you had a chef seven days a week?
- 22:04 – 26:46
Why London Could Become the Center of AI Outside the US
- NLNico Laqua
get the memo.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So-
- NLNico Laqua
So I heard plenty of that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But, dude, why are you doing it? I get it in SF, cool. You're opening in London.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. I mean, we have an office in London. I think I'm very bullish London actually, um, in general. Um, which-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why are you bullish London?
- NLNico Laqua
I think the talent is ex- is exceptional, um, both, both British talent and European. And I think, um, you know, there's very few places in the world where if you tell someone, like, pretty much anywhere to move to, they're, like, very happy to do so. I think San Francisco's one of those places. Um, I think New York's one of those places, al- although I don't think that good companies tend to be in New York. And be- because of that, um, I think that there's cer- certain exceptional qualities that, um, London has. And, um, given the whole, like, visa situation in the United States, I think there's actually a phenomenal opportunity for London to become, like, a center of AI and a center of tech. Um, so we opened a London office before we opened a New York office. Like, we, you know, we're very long London.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you find it much cheaper to hire in London?
- NLNico Laqua
It's a little bit cheaper. I think we, you know, maybe, maybe we're paying above market, but we're not paying that much. Uh, the thing is if, if you're working for, like, a salary working at Corgi, you're doing something wrong. Like, if you're super hyped about your cash, like, comp, then, um, then, then probably, uh-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Are you more generous than others on equity? 'Cause you understand that you are asking for more of someone's life being self-employed.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, yeah. We're, we're generous with top, top-offs. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
What's top-offs?
- NLNico Laqua
Like, like, like, with w- after people are working, we, we, we give more, more equity based upon performance. That's, that's where we're generous, more than the initial equity that people sign on.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay.
- NLNico Laqua
Or, so-
- HSHarry Stebbings
So it's like accelerators on milestones hit.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's more, it's a little more ad hoc than that. Um, but, uh, yeah. Yeah, something like that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs] Uh, I love it. Um, we said about distractions. A lot of founders angel invest. How do you think about founders actively angel investing?
- NLNico Laqua
I don't angel invest. Um, and-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- NLNico Laqua
I think it's a distraction. Yeah, I don't think it's like... Yeah. I, I don't, I don't know. It's, it, it doesn't feel like it's, uh, as, as core to, to, like, winning. You know, there-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Have, have you sold secondaries?
- NLNico Laqua
No. I've, I haven't sold any second- people are always trying to buy them, but I've, I've yet to sell a single secondary.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why is that?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, because our equity's going up, and when... Or maybe I shouldn't say that, but, um, I believe our equity is going up, and, and I'm voting with my feet. Um, and, uh, you know, if, if, if I, if I have the, in my opinion, k- the scarcest asset that, that I could have any meaningful influence over, and I think that, like, we're gonna keep doing well and keep kicking ass, um, you know, why would I sell that? Like, I don't really have a
- HSHarry Stebbings
You don't have huge rent to pay, that's for sure. [laughs]
- NLNico Laqua
[laughs] That's true.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Um, I, I love that. Um, despite the bullishness on London, you're still super bullish on SF.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I love San Francisco.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why is the amount of great talent building in SF? Is it just there's nothing else to do there?
- 26:46 – 30:08
Learning From the Greats: Napoleon, Alexander & Startup Culture
- HSHarry Stebbings
Um, I get you. We've spoken a lot about everything from chefs to signage on buildings, to Corgi Cafe, to work ethic. Wh- wh- you're a little bit younger than me, but I do reflect on how I've built the company. When you reflect on what you did that you wish you hadn't done-
- NLNico Laqua
I mean, there, there's a long list there
- HSHarry Stebbings
... what was the biggest?
- NLNico Laqua
I think, I don't, I don't dwell on mistakes, and I, I think-
- HSHarry Stebbings
How very Mark Andreessen of you. [laughs]
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I think [laughs] I think, I think if you dwell on mistakes then, um, then you're, you're... Like I, I, I look more at the victories than, than, than the losses because I think there's more to learn from the victories, and if you can kind of emulate the things that have worked really well, um, again and again-
- HSHarry Stebbings
There's a brilliant, um, commencement speech by Matthew McConaughey at the University of Texas or University of Houston. Um, and he says, you know, "Study success and the importance of lessons from success." If I were to then flip it and say what success have you studied and what do you learn from it, what would you say that is?
- NLNico Laqua
I think that you need to look at the greats, and the greats are, you know, oftentimes outside of, of the context of startups. Like, you know, people like, you know, obviously there's, there's obvious, like, famous startup founders, but I think that, um, you know, looking at everyone from Alexander the Great to Napoleon to, you know, so on and so forth is, is also very informative. Um, because if, if you wanna, like, change the world, if you wanna do something important and, and you don't wanna just be like a memetic copy of everyone else, or you wanna be p- class president or something, that's fine, but if you wanna actually, like, do something big, then, um, then I think that being a student of the greats is great. And, um, you know, the important thing I think is, is probably not copying them, like you should have your own style, but, um, but being a student of history is probably a, a pretty positive thing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
If I were to ask you what's Corgi's culture in one word, what would you say it is?
- NLNico Laqua
We have a culture of winning.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Winning. That's it?
- NLNico Laqua
That's it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay.
- NLNico Laqua
I mean, I, I, I maybe in the past I would've answered like X founder, like hackers, like other things, but I, I, I, I think all that's actually kind of fake and we just like winning.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How big is the team?
- NLNico Laqua
Uh, maybe a bit over 100 now.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can you maintain the intensity that you have today when you're at 1,000 people?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Easy.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Really?
- NLNico Laqua
I think so.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why has no one else been able to do it?
- NLNico Laqua
So naturally there, there's, there's roles I think that, that creep in. You know, you get the, like a, a lawyer or an accountant are not gonna work in the same way that, um, you know, a software engineer might. Um, and that's just a fact of life. So, okay, so if they don't wanna work quite as hard, then you just need to hire more of them for the same work output, which is okay. Um, it's just like a, like a return on investment calculation. The, the only reason I can think of i- is, is, um, you know, there, there's some point in which you need to take the, the off-ramp of, of being super hardcore and you need to accept maybe lower growth but less volatility. I personally, at least at, at the current stage I'm at, um, don't mind volatility, is something that I think is, can produce alpha in a lot of ways.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What would you say to people who say that you're exclusionary in the work culture and that parents couldn't do what you want?
- NLNico Laqua
I mean, we have plenty of parents that work at
- 30:08 – 34:46
Is It Possible to Stay This Intense at 1,000 People?
- NLNico Laqua
Corgi, so, um, life's about trade-offs and sacrifices. Um, I think Corgi's a great place to work if you want a sense of community and camaraderie with the people you work with, if you wanna have friends in the workplace, the social life attached to your, to your workplace, if you want your work to be additive to your life as opposed to separate. Um, and that applies whether you're married, whether you have kids, don't have kids. Some of our best people have, have, uh, you know, a lot of children. But if you, if you wanna, you know, clock in and then just check out of, of, of work, then you... Respectfully, there's infinite other jobs you can get, and that's okay. Um, you know, Corgi's not for everyone.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you care about the backlash that you get when you speak about this? I, I get a lot of backlash. Do you?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get a lot of backlash with the, the death threats and the DMs. Uh, you know, people, people think I'm, I'm nuts.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you care?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, not really, no. I, I don't know. I mean, I-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Have you ever cared?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I, I, I don't know. I, I think when you're, when you're a young person, particularly I, I think, uh, young men, you know, don't have, um, that much support within society, and I think it's something of course that, like, weighs on people, particularly if you don't have, um, you know, a lot of external validation or, or credibility yet. Credibility is something that, um, you know, is hard to get, um, which goes back to the, the crisis of legitimacy that I think is, is core to startups. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think you're legitimate yet? I know that sounds strange.
- NLNico Laqua
Um, probably... I mean, so we're, we're, like, more regulated than a bank, and we, we make a lot of revenue and, um, have raised money. Um, I don't think we're quite legit yet. I think we're, we're getting there.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I think you're legitimate when you're in that you don't get fired for buying IBM. And I would, in my context as a fund, if you're Andreessen or you're, you name these great, like-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... big, large platforms, you don't get fired as an LP for doing Andreessen.
- NLNico Laqua
Right.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can't. Like, period.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. That's probably exactly right. And, um, you know, the, the, the, the thing is, like, in the fund context, you know, Andreessen or, or, or Kleiner or even Sequoia back in the day, you know, at some point they were just a couple guys in some shitty room that, like, didn't really know, like, what they were doing and were making it up as they went along. And they were probably pointing, uh, uh, or not probably, they certainly were pointing at other people and saying, "Oh, one day we'll be legit like them and the institutional, uh, you know, LPs will take us seriously." Um, you know, I, I think it's... It, there, there's always, you know, more legit, right? You can go, go from pension funds to university endowments to, to, to the government. You know, that's the ultimate form of legitimacy, um, probably because, um, the government can just take people's money. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
What are, what are your lessons on paying people? So what I've learned, for example, is that when people ask for more money, they tend to be very good. When they ask for more title, they tend to be very bad. Any lessons on salaries, benchmarking, comp?
- NLNico Laqua
I think low cash comp is, is something good, um, generally speaking. I think that, like, who ends up doing extremely well, like, if people are doing well, you need to just, like, give them more, like, equity especially, and, uh, make it so that, like, if they're doing a very simple r- return on investment calculation, that the highest EV thing they can do is, like, work in their, their current role. And if you can't provide that upside, like, there's no reason for them to, like, continue, like, working super hard and they should be doing something else, whether that's working for someone else or starting their own thing or, or whatever. I think separate from kind of the, the comp and the, the simple EV calculation is that you need to actually be, like, solving big problems, and if you're not solving big problems, then, um, no matter how much you pay people, you're not gonna retain them if they're actually good. You know, I th- you can probably split, like, within a- any organization, uh, the team into three. You can have people that are, like, really good, um, people that are, like, you know, kind of fungible and, like, mediocre, and then people that are bad. And I think getting rid of the bad very quickly is, is important, even if it makes a lot of noise.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you keep the mediocre?
- NLNico Laqua
I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it like that, but you know, I, I think in any organization there's people that, um, you know, you wouldn't be devastated if they, if, if they left. Um, but-
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's a brilliant... The, the question I always ask is knowing what you know now, would you hire them again? It's the most important question.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people, uh, where, where the, where the answer might be yes, but, um, you know, you're not gonna be sobbing and punching the wall if they're, uh-
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs]
- NLNico Laqua
... if they're no longer with you.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs] Um, uh, fundraising is a big part of your job as a CEO. You recently raised I think, what, 1.5?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, 1.3.
- 34:46 – 45:12
Raising $150M: What Nico Looks for in Investors
- HSHarry Stebbings
1.3 from TCV.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Love TCV. Love John Doran. Spoke to him before the show. What are your single biggest lessons on fundraising, having raised now across pre-regulated, post-regulated-
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... revenue scaling very fast? What are the most non-obvious lessons you have from raising several hundred million dollars?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, you know, I don't know if I'm actually an expert there or anything like that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think you're a good fundraiser?
- NLNico Laqua
I think I'm all right at it. I, I've, I've had to do it for years now, so I think if you have to do anything for years, you, you get good at it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, when I started, my pitch was not very good. Like, I remember my first pitch. Um, you know, I, I, I, like, took a red-eye.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who was it to?
- NLNico Laqua
[laughs] Um, who was my first pitch? Probably First Round Capital was my f- my first pitch.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay.
- NLNico Laqua
From way back in the day, the very first VC I ever talked to was at Google Ventures. Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, my first pitch for Corgi I think was maybe First Round Capital, and I remember I, I, like, took a red-eye the night before. I had, like, you know... I, I, my eyes were actually red. I looked like I was high or something. I was, like, so n- so nervous 'cause we had to get $5 million and we had like 24 hours. Or, uh, I flew back on Thursday night. Um, you know, I, I was like, "Oh, we'll get the money to you in a couple days. Like, you know how the banks are. It'll take some time to transfer them, transfer the money." Um, so I, I s- I started pitching Friday. We had Saturday, Sunday, and had to get the money by Monday. And, um, and you know, I, I think the pitch was not, was not very good, honestly. It was... I, I think it was a lot of like, like, "Just trust me." I wasn't telling them the name of the insurance carrier 'cause I was afraid they'd, like, call them and ruin it. Um, I think the f- the first set of pitches I did weren't, weren't that good. The, the, the, the, the thing about-
- HSHarry Stebbings
And you were raising two on 10?
- NLNico Laqua
We were raising, uh, five on, uh, 28 with that one. Um, and that was 2024, so that wasn't, wasn't super easy.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That was recently. What was that, two years ago?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What was the best VC meeting you had?
- NLNico Laqua
The worst are when it's, like, super structured, when they start asking me, like, BS about, like, our, like, balance sheet or, like, you know, they get in the nitty-gritty. I'm, I'm, I'm not that type of guy. Um, I think that the best ones tend to be when someone is, like, very, like, growth-minded or product-minded, and, uh, we just get to vibe about, like, where we're going and, and, like, how we're gonna win. Um, I think when they're, like, you know-
- HSHarry Stebbings
So what was the best VC meeting that didn't invest?
- NLNico Laqua
I've had plenty of great ones that didn't invest.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Give me one.
- NLNico Laqua
I'm not gonna put them on the spot-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Oh
- NLNico Laqua
... 'cause they might, they might invest later on.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Ah, okay. What was the worst?
- NLNico Laqua
Oh, I've had some really bad ones.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Have you had some really bad ones?
- NLNico Laqua
I've had some super bad ones.
- 45:12 – 48:20
AI Makes Sales & Marketing More Important, Not Less
- NLNico Laqua
particular, but I think that, um, that actually AI makes sales and marketing much more important, um, than, than it was in the past. And, uh, in, in the past I think if you had a, like a really rock solid, like super hardcore engineering and product team, you could come out with something that would just like blow everyone away. It'd be faster, it'd be better. Um, now you can make something faster and better and, um, you know, if you don't have people to sell it or to market it or to tell people that it exists, um, it's not really worth the whole lot. And, um, I think the, the like organic network effects around, um, particularly B2B product, uh, launches, um, just don't really exist in the same way that they used to.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think traditional B2B marketing is good?
- NLNico Laqua
I think traditional B2B sales is good. I think marketing is awful.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, you know, there's a lot that B2B could learn from consumer. Um, I think that like the, the conferences are not it. Like I, I'm, I'm not a fan of, you know, going and hanging out with a bunch of like sweaty like people in like a room. Like I don't, I don't really like that. I, I think that like consumer companies are, have, have, you know, perfected marketing and B2B companies have perfected sales and, uh, much like in a company where you have like a dominant product how that kind of becomes the company and like it's hard to like really care that much about auxiliary revenue streams. Um, you know, as, as an industry, um, if you're selling B2B products, like you're gonna get very good at sales and marketing will tend to be an afterthought in most instances.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I do wanna move into a quick fire where I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Sure.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So I think changing one's mind is important. What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?
- NLNico Laqua
There's a lot I've changed my mind on. Um, you, you know, I, I, I, I think I've, I've grown to value experience a lot more. Um, in, in the, in the past, um, you know, I've, I've probably made certain statements around, uh, you know, boomers being slow and bad or, or, or, you know, like I've, I've, I've definitely, uh, you know, probably undervalued, um, people that have been doing something for a long time. Um, because a lot of times there's like these like little nuances or edge cases that, um, when you do something for a long time, you, you pick up and maybe you're not as fast or as efficient or as, as, you know, able to use the latest tools, but there's an extraordinary amount of knowledge that, uh, lives in, in, in kind of the older generations, especially the retiring ones. And I think it's a big problem, uh, in that there's, there's trillions of dollars to make getting that knowledge out and putting it inside of, um, inside of computers that can think and talk.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs]
- NLNico Laqua
Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I don't think I, I viewed those problems in, in, in that lens. Uh, you know, I, I think I just considered, uh, you know, old people using fax machines moving at two miles per hour, uh, to be like, you know, something uniformly bad. But now I see that there's value in their knowledge.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who do you not have on the board that you would most like to have on the board?
- NLNico Laqua
I don't like boards.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- 48:20 – 49:16
Boards Are Mostly Theatrical
- NLNico Laqua
I believe in executive decision-making. You know, our board's great and yada, yada, yada, all the disclaimers. But I think you just need to be able to decide and you need to be able to do things. And like you think Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg are caring what their board thinks or their board-- You know, you think that they're like, "All right, guys, let's huddle up. Let's like make a decision." Like every committee decision I think is like BS. Like sometimes you need to be able to take an unpopular stance, and you just need to be able to plant your flag in the ground.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But is the board a check the box?
- NLNico Laqua
I think so a little bit. Like it's, you know, a little theatrical. I guess it is-- it's good to make sure you're not like a scam or like doing like blatantly illegal stuff. But I mean, if, if management is like unethical or unscrupulous enough to scam people or do illegal stuff, then, um, they're gonna do it anyways probably with or without a board, and that's a management problem.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You can buy OpenAI or Anthropic today both at the same price, $900. Which one do you choose?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. I'm gonna get in trouble for this probably,
- 49:16 – 53:15
OpenAI vs. Anthropic
- NLNico Laqua
but, um, the, I guess the disclaimer is, um, this might be a stated preference versus a r- a revealed preference.Um, given that we spend maybe like $400,000 per month on, on Anthropic and $0 on OpenAI at the moment. Um, but I think that like spiritually, like OpenAI is, um, is, is I, I guess a little more pure, um, because they kind of created, you know, this idea of like a AI lab as a company, um, dating all the way back to YC Research. And, um, you know, Anthropic is a result of, you know, employees that didn't like the management or the direction. There were complaints about profit and ethics and all this other stuff. And, um, and, you know, the, the EA movement and all of that. And, um, you know, I, I, I think when you're like... when your origins are, are that, um, impure, it, it's, it's a little hard to, to, you know, to, to overtake, uh, to overtake the king. And, uh, you know, right now, um, Anthropic, frankly speaking, has been out-executing OpenAI. Their product's much better. Um, you know, we, we, we use the best product in, in every category, at least fr- from a, from an enterprise or like workflow automation perspective. Um, Anthropic's better, so OpenAI needs to lock in. But-
- HSHarry Stebbings
How easy is it for you to switch back?
- NLNico Laqua
Um, I don't think it'd be that hard. Um, although, uh, you know, all, all of the labs are always trying to make us sign contracts, and if they give us a big enough discount on, on tokens, then, uh, we'd, we'd, we'd consider it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What is no one talking about that you're spending more and more time thinking about?
- NLNico Laqua
To me, there's good companies and there's, and there's, you know, everyone else. And, um, I think the number of good companies is very small. And a good company wants to win, is like world historic, will be talked about in like 100 years. Those companies, you know, there's just not many of them because people don't wanna win. They don't wanna put in the work. They don't wanna... You know, and that's okay. Like, it's okay to be average and part of the mediocre masses or whatever. That's all right. Um, but I think that the, the kind of, uh, cultural, um, you know, uh, or internal, um, kind of character of the companies that are good companies, um, is something that's not appreciated enough. Like from a, from a, you know, a, a, a metaphysical level, there's a really big difference between Anduril and like Anthropic, right? Those are like super different, uh, companies. And, um, I think, I think both those could be good companies. Um, but I, I don't think people really understand, um, the philosophy behind, um, the management teams that they're investing in.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who do you think is the most underappreciated CEO today? When you look at your style, who most aligns to your style?
- NLNico Laqua
Well, my, my style is my own style. I try to just, try to just do me. I think there's plenty of super underappreciated, uh, CEOs that like... One area where I think to, to more, more than kind of venture-backed companies, what, what I would love to see more of, um, are venture funds, um, you know, speaking out about, um, about these sort of important topics. And I know like, like startup founders love to clown on VCs for chiming in about like topics that they might not know a lot about, but I think that venture funds are actually in, you know, despite the fact that they're, you know, need to raise from LPs and LPs, you know, can crack the whip or whatever, um, like I think that venture funds are in a really strong position to influence the way that the startup ecosystem looks, um, because they're setting the incentives and, uh, incentives often drive behavior. And, um, I, I would lo- One thing I would love to see are the, the CEOs or the people that, that are running venture funds, um, actually take an a- a more active stance, um, in, in aligning their, their, you know, deployed capital with what the changes that they'd like to see in the world. And, um, and to me that- that's, that's perhaps a more important issue than like any particulars company... any particular company's, uh, CEO or management team broadly speaking.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Would you blame
- 53:15 – 56:44
Are VCs Responsible for the Rise in Startup Fraud?
- HSHarry Stebbings
VCs for the dramatic increase we've seen in fraud, especially around ARR? You know, we put so much emphasis on zero to 100 million in X amount of time.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I mean-
- HSHarry Stebbings
No wonder founders lie. [chuckles]
- NLNico Laqua
I, I mean, I, I think like a lot of the issues with fraud we've seen are downstream of like credentialism or that quest for like legitimacy in a lot of ways. Um, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna speak about specific frauds, but I'm sure some come to mind that kind of check those boxes. I, I think VCs are, are partially responsible but, um, you know, uh, as a venture investor, after you invest in a company, there's very little you can do. So if the management is unscrupulous, is, is, you know, is, uh, is gonna be scamming people or their product doesn't actually work or whatever, then I, I don't think you're really responsible for that management team, um, you know, committing fraud. Um, I think on the extreme you have... Like if you go back in time a couple years, a lot of the crypto investors would encourage, uh, company founders to take on quite a lot of personal liability, including criminal liability in many cases. Um, and, you know, basically they'd be like arbitraging that and like pumping the, the tokens or whatever. Um, and, you know, that was pr- in hindsight I guess that was the wrong type of tokens to work on. Um, but, you know, and, and I think in those cases probably venture investors bear more responsibility, but like I think that people blaming like, you know, YC or whatever for, for, for, uh, some of their companies being frauds, um, is probably not like directionally correct because like internally it's not like any venture fund really wants to like invest in a fraud and people that are like doing these things, um, they're very good at wrapping it up and disguising it in such a way that, that it will pass muster, especially w- if a, a round, uh, is moving quick which most good companies rounds do.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who was your first believer with Corgi?
- NLNico Laqua
Uh, it was probably Jared Friedman from YC. Yeah. There's been times where he was our only believer. You know, everyone else is a doubter, is a naysayer. Um, but Jared, Jared's always been there for us.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Would you do YC again?
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah, I'd do it again.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Final thing for you. What are you most excited for when you look forward to the next 10 years? What are you like, "This I can't wait for"?
- NLNico Laqua
You know, it, it's a, it's a little hard to say because if you, if you asked that 10 years ago, um, the technology that people were really excited about didn't exist yet, right? Um, it was only late 2022 that people actually started getting, uh, with ChatGPT 3.5 that large language models were obviously very important and very exciting. I think like within the, the next 10 years technology will solve a lot of, a lot of problems. Perhaps it'll create some too, but I think it'll solve a lot more than it creates and I think that there's certain areas where venture investing hasn't worked before where, um, where there could be like category defining, um, outcomes and where there could be, um, you know, new, uh, kind of industries where, where smart people are actually interested in going into. Um, like biology is one that comes to mind. Um, and um, I s- really strongly believe that, um, you know, we're gonna probably see more like ChatGPT moments, um, you know, maybe, maybe a couple years from now that, uh, that will really shake things up.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Dude, I have to say it's been so wonderful having you on the show. As I said at the beginning, uh, some of my most unpopular beliefs, uh, you align with completely and so it's nice to have a kindred, uh, friend. Thank you so much for joining me today, man.
- NLNico Laqua
Yeah. Thanks for having me
Episode duration: 56:54
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