The Twenty Minute VCWhy OpenAI and Anthropic Won't Win the App Layer | Glean Founder
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,314 words- 0:00 – 3:12
Intro
- AJArvind Jain
90% or greater of use cases can now be fully handled by many, many different models, including open source models.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Arvind Jain, the incredible founder of Glean, is one of the technology luminaries of the last decade. He founded Rubrik before, which obviously IPO'd very successfully and is a brilliant public company now. He's gone on to found Glean, an incredible business today that's raised money from Kleiner Perkins and many other great investors.
- AJArvind Jain
For almost all other AI companies that are not doing frontier model training, they should see the model companies as a huge asset. Once you move towards consumption, there's no inherent bundling advantage. You have to do 10 times the work to get the same amount of revenue from your customers.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Ready to go? [upbeat music] Arvind, I'm so excited for this. We have a mutual friend in Mamoon who says many, many wonderful things about you, and I think he's one of the greatest ambassadors of our time. And so I'm really excited for this, so thank you for joining me.
- AJArvind Jain
Thank you for having me.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Now, I think with entrepreneurs, you're either thrilled by winning, and it's that chase to win, or you're terrified of losing, and it's that fear of losing that inspires you. Which one are you?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, that, that's a good question. I think I would probably say the latter. I'm always worried about what can go wrong, and that keeps me up at night.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I, I love that it's the-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... only the paranoid survive. Has it always been that way?
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah, mostly. Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Even with the success you've had? I'm sorry, it's so interesting. Like, you know-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... Rubrik-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... was a phenomenal success, public company today, and you're one of the co-founders.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It doesn't change with time.
- AJArvind Jain
No, because I think, number one, like every time you do s- a new company or build a new, uh, start a new project, it's sort of like starting from scratch, in my opinion. Like, you have some good lessons from before, but it's the, it's the new world, it's a new environment. Like, think about Glean, like, you know, it's fundamentally different from Rubrik and always, always possible. And especially in, in the world of AI, you have to be... You have to, I think you have to think that way because, like, there is a disruption every single day, and if you start to focus more on sort of keep building on what you've already built, like the investing mindset that, you know, you've, you, you, you're winning with something, you want to sort of double down on it. I think that's not sufficient in, in this new AI world.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask, for those that don't know, can you provide a 60-second summary on what Glean is and how you work?
- AJArvind Jain
So Glean, Glean is an enterprise AI company. We started as a search company for businesses, so help an employee quickly find information that they need, you know, that's sort of buried across one of hundred or thousand different systems inside their company. So that was sort of like how we started. The Google... It's a Google for your work life. But then over time, as AI models got better, so it, it evolved into an AI platform. So today, um, the way to think about Glean is that first, it's a superset of ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, all of those combined into one product experience. It's a coworker for your employees, and it's connected to all of your company's context, how work happens inside
- 3:12 – 6:21
Are Enterprises Right to Fear Frontier Model Providers?
- AJArvind Jain
your company.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So Mr. Alex Karp from Palantir-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... went on CNBC last week.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And he said that the largest enterprises in the world were more skeptical than ever of frontier model providers.
- AJArvind Jain
Hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You work with some of the largest. You have incredible customers.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you agree with him? Are they more skeptical than ever?
- AJArvind Jain
Two things. You know, one, they're terrified of them, like, in the sense that, I, I mean, just like every software company is worried about that, "Hey, will we be in business? Will the, will the models eat it all?" Similarly, enterprises leaders are also worried that, you know, are, is their sort of core IP, um, their data, their information, as well as their way of learning, uh, their, their, their way of doing things, like, would it all be... Will they be subject to too much of technology dependence on these model providers? So that's, that's, that's for... That feeling is there for sure. But I think what he said was that AI is not working, uh, in the enterprises, and everybody's afraid to actually say so, um, because, you know, it's, it's not supposed to be a cool thing to, cool thing to say.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Before we get, before we get to AI not working, 'cause I think it's probably one of the most important questions-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... but it's a whole separate segment.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think they're right to be afraid of the frontier model providers eating their lunch or not?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, yeah, I mean, depending on, depending on the enterprise, yes. I think the... Well, look, like, you know, if we are talking about fundamentally changing how people work, and if we are saying that majority of the work that we do today is going to be done by an agent which is, which is fully powered by one of these frontier model companies, then in some sense, like, you've, um, now, uh, transferred a lot of your operations to these technology providers. Um, this is more than technology dependence. This is actually a real sort of operational dependence on, on, on, on the, on the companies that are, that are actually, uh, running those agents for you. Um, it's, it's actually interesting. The... Like, if, if you think about how work happens, um, over time, like, you know, there is, you know, like, when you initially, like, do, do a, you know, do a task for the first time, you maybe you'll document a process, like, you know, how to, like, what are the 10 steps you need to take to actually complete some piece of work. And then over time, you know, people start to sort of optimize and tweak that process. A lot of it never gets documented, and you just, you sort of, based on doing this work over and over again, you've now built all these, um, learnings that you apply in real time to, to do this work. In the future, all of that institutional learning, uh, is actually going to accumulate in that agent that is doing that work. So if you don't have any control on running that agent yourself, if you don't own the learning that it actually, um, that, that it actually, like, you know, gains o- over the years, then you're basically fully dependent on ... are these AI companies, you know, to do, you know, to get your work done. So, so, like, it's, it's absolutely, I think there's a fundamental question in front of enterprises today, like how do, how do they actually use these AI technologies but still retain control, uh, and, and all the compounding learnings that happen with AI, they belong to the
- 6:21 – 7:25
Who Owns the Institutional Learning That Agents Build?
- AJArvind Jain
enterprises.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Are you seeing enterprise customers root away from frontier model providers towards open source?
- AJArvind Jain
That's something that's happening now. So I think we are at a real inflection point with open source. Part of it, you know, like you're waiting on the open source models actually get better.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
Like, you know, the, the desire has been there for, you know, for, for many, many years. Nobody... There's no enterprise, you know, that we talk to which is okay with saying that, "Hey, look, you know, I can get my work done with OpenAI or with Anthropic and I'm good." Everybody wants to make sure that they are in control of their destiny, that they get to use many of these models. Um, and now given that AI has become so expensive, right? I mean, like if you look at... People hear stories all the time about companies, you know, come, coming up with a annual budget for AI, and they run, run past that like, you know, within a month or two. So in this way-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Poor CFOs. [laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah. So, so that sort of, that has really, uh, accelerated that sort of dri- um, that desire, you know, for open source. 'Cause, you know, and, and that coupled with the fact that we now have really good models in open source.
- 7:25 – 12:28
Why Enterprises Are Shifting to Open Source
- HSHarry Stebbings
What do they care about? Do they care about cost?
- AJArvind Jain
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do they care about ownership in terms of their data staying on-prem in models that they actually can have visibility on?
- AJArvind Jain
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What is it?
- AJArvind Jain
I think right now the open source drive is coming from the cost point of view. I mean, there are certain businesses, of course, you know, that have the requirements to, to actually keep, you know, all the inferencing workload within their own private data centers. When AI just came, there was a... Companies were a lot more afraid of, um, getting their data outside of, you know, their own control and, and model companies training with, with, you know, with their data. But that sort of is a fear that it's no longer there. Like pe- you know, like people believe that the model companies are going to be responsible and not train, uh, their models on, on enterprise data, so long as, you know, I've signed up, you know, for the right kind of contract. So right now the, the drive is coming from cost.
- HSHarry Stebbings
In terms of where you sit in the landscape, e- every one of your investors that I spoke to said that I had to ask this question, which is the obvious question.
- AJArvind Jain
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Which is, do you worry that Anthropic will do what they did to Figma, say-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... or what they've done with legal or what they're doing with health-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and move into your space and cannibalize your business?
- AJArvind Jain
First of all, I think we should be careful, like in terms of what they've actually done for Figma or legal space or finance space. Um, they are launching these sort of vertical packs, but I think they're quite, um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Shallow
- AJArvind Jain
... quite shallow in my opinion.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
And, and I don't actually know of people who are, uh, sort of moving their workload entirely from, from Figma or, for that matter, from any other tool to Anthropic. It's actually sort of net new always. Like, you know, uh, or like I think it's expanding the market. Like for example, now in design, the designers still use Figma. Uh, but the non-designers actually, you know, are using, you know, Cloud Design, right? I mean, so that's sort of what we're seeing, is that AI is making things simpler. Um, so if people are not experts, you know, on the primary users of that particular tool, they can actually, um, they can actually start to do some of that work with Claude. So-
- HSHarry Stebbings
So you don't worry that they will put emphasis on moving into enterprise and being that context-
- AJArvind Jain
Well, they're already doing it. Or, or whether they're doing it or not, we actually face that competition every day, uh, with enterprise customers. People often ask us, "Well, I mean, Claude can also connect with enterprise systems through MCP, um, so what's different?" Like, you know, "What can Glean do which, you know, Claude cannot?" So we have to go and explain, um, like what, like what re- you know, context really is and why it is actually complicated to actually build it. So, so we, so we are, we are competing. In fact, actually, I would say that they probably started to compete with us before others. Like they've, you know, like, 'cause, you know, if you think about Claude Co-Work as an application or Claude Desktop, um, the, the primary use case for that has always been question answering, right? That's the, like the largest application or use case for AI in the world today is, in fact, information seeking and question answering.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How important do you think being first to market is?
- AJArvind Jain
It's actually very advantageous. Uh, but it's actually only... It's, it's, it's a, it's a thing that it helps you, but it's a thing that's not gonna carry you. So for us, you know, we actually get a lot of credit for being the first enterprise AI company in the world, the first ones to actually, uh, bring RAG into the enterprise, the first ones to build conceptual semantic search. And so that actually gives us that brand and the right to compete in this market, even though now, like, you know, we're much smaller compared to the, the giants that, uh, OpenAI and Anthropic have become. So it's a, it's a, it's a huge, it's a huge sort of asset, but neither is it a requirement nor is it a, is it a savior.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you advise founders who are losing sleep at night worried that the frontier model providers will come into their space?
- AJArvind Jain
Oh, right. Well, I would say like, absolutely don't worry about that. I mean, like, l- like, I think as, as a founder, you have to, you have to actually solve problems, not worry, number one, right? So you have, yes, you know, like you have to always, you know, anticipate, you know, what they're gonna do. You have to see their current capabilities. Um, but I think like for almost all other AI companies that are not doing frontier model, uh, training, uh, they should see the model companies as a, as a huge asset, um, not a competition, in my opinion. Like, you know, we like, you know, we actually believe that, uh, everything that Anthropic is doing, everything that OpenAI and Google is doing, as well as all the innovation that's happening in open source, that's great news for us. Like, we don't worry about that as, and don't think of that as competition. In fact, like, you know, they've allowed us to actually deliver a product that we could never You know, without that help
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you not think we're seeing the ultimate commoditization of the model layer when you speak about Anthropic OpenAi and the rise of the model layer and the speed with which new models are coming out, especially banning from open source Chinese providers?
- AJArvind Jain
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Are we not seeing the ultimate commoditization
- 12:28 – 15:01
Are Frontier Models Commoditising?
- HSHarry Stebbings
of the model layer?
- AJArvind Jain
So one thing is clear, um, that let's, let's talk about enterprise use cases.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
90% uh, or greater of use cases cannot be fully handled by, um, many, many different models, including open source models. So there's definitely, um, uh, there's definitely commoditization from that perspective. In fact, like, you know, we at Glean, uh, that's act-that's actually one of our core value adds to our customers, you know, which is cost control. We will actually tell them that, "Hey, look, you know, um, as people actually complete their tasks on our platform, we actually pick the right model for you. And if you're okay with using open source models, uh, we'll use them, you know, when we think it's appropriate, when it's going to generate a high quality answer."
- HSHarry Stebbings
What percent of customers are not okay with open source models?
- AJArvind Jain
This, this is actually so new. Like, so we actually only have y- you know, I, I would say that open source truly coming to that, like within three months of frontier capabilities, that has just happened literally like a month back or, or not even a month, right? You know, I would say with GLM 5.2 is the very first time where our own team, for example, feels comfortable that now we can run majority of our workloads, uh, on that model. So, so we, we are yet to find, you know, uh, what, what people are gonna tell us. And I don't, I don't like, you know, like from a point of view of open source, uh, and using the model, everybody's gonna be fine. It's the question is going to be, are they okay with the Chinese model or not? That's the only question here. It's not open source versus closed source.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why would they not be okay with a Chinese model when you look at the ownership that you have, the ability to have it on-prem, you're not sharing anything back to China.
- AJArvind Jain
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why would you not be?
- AJArvind Jain
I think it's just, it's just comfort. It's just what if something goes wrong? There's always paranoia and fear. What if there's a backdoor, some magic... You know, some backdoor that we don't even understand, like, you know, then that could be a backdoor. Um, so, so there are, there are some cons- some concerns. There's also, if you use these models, and if it becomes a known thing, then, you know, it could be used against you in some ways, you know, by your competitors and things like that. So there's like, you know, a variety of factors that is, um... But ultimately, like it's come, it again boils down to who's willing to be bold because this is a new thing. Like, you know, and large enterprises are, uh, have to make this move and, and the early movers will make the move first, and then it'll become a more normal
- 15:01 – 22:00
Have We Completely Mispriced the Frontier Model Landscape?
- AJArvind Jain
thing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I'm always doing this show to learn. If 90% of enterprise workflows can be done with open models-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... have we completely mispriced the frontier model landscape? That's a very different TAM.
- AJArvind Jain
I do feel like, you know, the, the model business on its own, regardless of like, forget open source for a minute, the- there is plenty of competition even within the labs and then, and more and more, uh, companies are coming into that space. So the, um, the, like, you know, in that fierce competition, even in a three, three-way race, I think you can actually get, you know, good amount of pricing pressure. And now of course, you know, with open source, like, you know, it actually is an order of magnitude, um, cheaper prices. So like we, we-- I, I actually heard rumors that, that OpenAI was going to drastically reduce, um, you know, their model prices in response to like these, these developments like, you know, competition as and, and open source. So, so that, that, that I mean, I think the model business, uh, you know, on its own, um, is, is actually probably not as lucrative as everybody believes. But these companies now have a lot more things. It's not just, they're not, no longer model companies only.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Totally get that. But if they're doing shallow things in those adjacencies, they're not exactly gonna generate a trillion dollars of revenue like Dario said.
- AJArvind Jain
If, if you think about like, you know, first of all, like, you know, these two labs, they're very fundamentally different businesses. OpenAI, of course, has amazing consumer, uh, product. Um, and Anthropic, actually, the interesting thing that is happening is, um, the people are actually building on top of their platform. And so when you think about Anthropic, right now there are a lot of folks who are actually developing automations and skills and, and everybody's sort of, they're creating these MCP servers to their internal systems, getting connect- and connected all to cloud. So there's a, there's a ecosystem that actually that's being developed. Um, so they, they very much, uh, you should consider them an application level company, not just a model company.
- HSHarry Stebbings
If you were to make a guess in three years' time, what percent of your workflows do you think are through open source?
- AJArvind Jain
Um, well, we've been telling customers, I believe that majority, majority of, uh, uh, enterprise workloads will actually be on open source models. Uh, in three years for sure. Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Another competitive element that you face forgetting kind of the model providers is like actually Microsoft. You know, Microsoft have made a, a phenomenal business on the back of creating a 70% as good product.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But bundling it into a bundle for enterprises-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and then selling it with a nice sticker on it.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you think about the bundling pressure from a Microsoft Copilot as a competitive threat?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, for us, the, they are one of our, um, most significant competitors. Um, and the bundling strategy actually works.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
And, and you have to fight, you know, against that. I mean, there's luckily, like, you know, there's always been room for best of breed, you know, software and, and you know, like people and cu- all customers think of us exactly like that. Like if you are trying to actually bring a, a great search product, if you're trying to Um, you know, build a horizontal comprehensive AI platform. They know that, you know, we do b- do it better. And so, so, so companies are willing to invest, um, on top of that, like, you know, you know, as part of the bundled, um, uh, product suite from Microsoft. Uh, but the, but the other thing, like, you know, is actually, um, is maybe making bundling not as effective of a strategy anymore is the fact that AI is moving towards consumption-based models. So once you move towards consumption, there's no inherent bundling advantage. 'Cause, you know, like, and, and as a business I can get six tools, and I let the users choose where they want to do their work. Wherever they do their work, I have to pay for it for that particular unit of work. So consumption, you know, can u- ultimately break that bundling strategy.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Uh, and respectfully, I don't know if it does if you're working-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... with enterprise, 'cause they will make you compliant as an enterprise bundle. And so you'll go through approvals processes, sign-off processes internally-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... for the largest enterprises in the world, your VWs or your Fords or your GEs or Tyson Chickens. I always use them as like a, you know, I know random companies.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Um, uh, but they'll appro- approve Microsoft as one vendor.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
If they're suddenly having to approve 15 vendors-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... forgetting the pricing and the transactions-
- 22:00 – 27:00
Why AI Is Not Working in Enterprise
- AJArvind Jain
it to your customers in some ways. So, so there are definitely areas where, uh, there is, um, clear value, um, realization and, and, and enterprise are feeling good. Um, some other ones are more complex, like for example, I think, I think the, uh, majority of the AI spend right now is on coding. Um, and, and you know that the coding as a practice has changed. Like most developers now actually use AI to write code. They're not writing it by hand anymore. Um, so that part, like you can, in some ways you can, you can say that, yes, like AI made a big impact, but the... But are they shipping the products faster or not? And that's where we hear most of the companies saying that no, that the actual shipping speed of products has not increased even though coding, you know, uh, increased, coding speed increased significantly. 'Cause I think that's only a small part of like overall shipping a product.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Has your shipping speed increased?
- AJArvind Jain
I would say, like, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to actually measure. That's, that's the challenge because engineering productivity is one of the most difficult things to measure. It's the most, it's the fuzziest of the jobs out there. The... If you look at some of the metrics like lines of code written, of course we're writing way more lines of code now. But if, you know, if you look at, you know, are we, uh, shipping features, uh, at a greater pace? Yes, we are. Uh, but, but it's a, it's a, it's a result also of we have a larger team. You know, we have, uh, a team that is more tenured than it was before. So it's sometimes, you know, it's hard to tease, tease it apart. Uh, but with, with, with that, what do we do as a company? Like, we are right now saying that like, look, you know, we, we are just gonna keep investing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What percent of Glean code, say, do you think is written by AI?
- AJArvind Jain
Now it's probably about almost 100%. Like, like nobody's actually like w- writing the, um, initial code, you know, by hand anymore. Like maybe, maybe sometimes, um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
You've got an artisan in the corner. [laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah. So yeah, so almost all the code is being written with AI, but of, but we actually enforce h- human, human reviews. So you cannot actually generate tons of, you know, AI code and, and then just check it in the, in the repos. We're probably more conservative than most other companies. Um, there was in fact a discussion Uh, inside the company that, well, like, you know, now AI can write so much code and the real bottleneck has shifted from the person who writes the code to person who has to review. And so there, there was a proposal to actually eliminate code reviews and then just, just sh- just ... And then many companies are doing that. You know, just like let AI write the code and directly get submitted into the, into the repos. Um, and-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, if you have to have a stringent code review process, it almost removes the point [laughs] of having a fastened code development process.
- AJArvind Jain
If you, if you, if you ... Yeah. That is true, so that's why ... So but I think, like, you know, what it, what it's doing right now is, um, y- the ... You know, we're still in the learning phase of using AI, you know, properly, effectively, thinking about long-term ramifications of it. Because when you write code, for example, with AI, um, you know, we, you know, you can write, like, you know, a million lines of code. Um, but it becomes incredibly hard to actually, um, maintain it and understand it and manage it over time. So, so-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Is that not what AI does, though? You have AI that does refactoring and AI that does security and AI that does-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah, only thing is that, you know, it's not, it's not that perfect right now. So you, so you have to ... I think I, we would rather, um ... I, I think right now we're willing to pay the cost of-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Being slow
- AJArvind Jain
... like, of, of well, of, of reviewing the code. So we're still faster than before because the writing part is actually much faster now. And, and the person who writes is the one who actually do- does the first review.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So when you say AI or AI ROI is really a throughput problem, what does that mean?
- AJArvind Jain
Like, the first thing that we have to do is, um, like, make sure that, that you are able to, um, bring the right context, you know, to these, uh, AI agents. Um, the, the way like, like I think like if you think about most, most enterprises today, the way they're rolling out AI is that they actually just throw it in, throw it in, into the system and connect AI with all of enterprise systems in a r- like a rudimentary manner using, you know, MCP servers. And now you're letting, like any piece of work that you are trying to do with AI, you're letting the models sort of brute force their way into trying to figure out and assemble the right raw materials that they need to complete the task and then do it. And i- and in this sort of, in this mode, AI is super slow. Um, it takes a lot of time to actually
- 27:00 – 28:01
The Agent Token Waste Problem
- AJArvind Jain
just assemble like, you know, the basic information it needs to do the work. It also becomes very, very costly because most of the tokens are being burnt, um, just trying to assemble the right context for that given task. And, and, and you're trying to sort of use AI for things, you know, where it's not even good at or, or needed. So instead, like, you know, what we talk about is to make AI really perform and deliver, um, you have to sort of invest around it. You have to make sure that you provide it the right context, um, uh, so that it can actually work faster, uh, with, you know, at, at lower cost.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What does it mean invest around it? And are we wrong as CEOs to be urging all of our team members to be trying to replace themselves with AI even if it means that we're wasting tokens?
- AJArvind Jain
I think, uh, it's a, it's a wrong goal in my opinion to say that, "Hey, like, replace yourself with AI." First of all, I think we're giving, giving too much credit to AI in, you know, when you say that. It's just not ready right now. Is you, you, you, you give me a name of one job that you can replace, you know,
- 28:01 – 29:25
Should You Actually Try to Replace Yourself With AI?
- AJArvind Jain
with AI. For example, do you think you can replace your EA?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mine, no, but I'm a fucking diva. [laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
[laughs] No, I think that-
- HSHarry Stebbings
For most people, uh, I, I think-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... it can do the majority. Yeah, I, I do. Um-
- AJArvind Jain
That, that, that, and that's the thing. It can actually take care of a lot of things, uh, you know, for any given role, but it cannot replace that f- the final, you know, the last intangible.
- HSHarry Stebbings
No, but that can be a tipping point where actually for a lot of people, if it does 90%, fine. You know what? You'll do that birthday present for your wife because it's, it's once a year. It's not very often, and Claude isn't quite personal enough to know your wife's preferences of perfume.
- AJArvind Jain
No.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And so it's very ... But they'll, but that role will get cannibalized.
- AJArvind Jain
I'm not sure, and I'll tell you why. I think the, you want to be performing the best in whatever you do.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mm.
- AJArvind Jain
And I don't think you're gonna take a 90% solution over a 90% solution-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, I know, but I'm not cost constraint, being a dick. I [laughs] I-
- AJArvind Jain
Well, well, I mean, like, look the, um, they're kind of like, you know, like it's a, it's not about you b- not being cost constrained, it's about you have to be competitive in your, in your work with others. Like remember they also have all the AI tools that you have, but if they also have a human on top, you know, how are you gonna compete with them?
- HSHarry Stebbings
So do you not think t- h- how many people do you have now?
- 29:25 – 33:49
Glean Has 1,000 People - Will It Have 5,000 in 5 Years?
- AJArvind Jain
In the, in our company?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
Little over 1,000 people now.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Over 1,000 people.
- AJArvind Jain
Mm-hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How many do you think you'll have in five years' time?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, hopefully, you know, 5,000.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Wow.
- AJArvind Jain
10,000.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So you do-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah. We're gonna grow.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But, but that is very atypical. You know, I sit with the biggest CEOs in the world-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and every single one of them is shrinking teams.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And every single one of them is saying to me-
- AJArvind Jain
I absolutely don't believe in it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- AJArvind Jain
Not at all close.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, I mean, I, I, I think like first think logically, the, uh, take two companies, take Coca-Cola and Pepsi or like, you know, two, two companies that compete with each other. Um, one, one company decides to shrink, and the other one is still has a lot more people. Both of them have full access to the same AI tools and technology. And so now the question is the, if you were trying to do the same amount of work and you believe you can do it with fewer people, and therefore you shrink- Um, your competition can also do the same, but they chose actually not to do the same amount of work. They chose to actually, you know, elevate and build a 10X better product or build 10 times more, um, produce 10 times more w- uh, uh, goods because they have, they have more people. You know, they're gonna be larger. They're gonna be, they're gonna beat you.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But I don't think more people makes for better products.
- AJArvind Jain
That's, that's, that's a different thing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
If I can cut headcount-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and then afford the best m- frontier models, the best technology for my 100X engineers because I've reduced headcount-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... the best engineers will wanna come to my company, and actually I'll be be cr- be creating better products-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... faster with my smaller team.
- 33:49 – 37:22
The $1M/Month Agent That Replaced 15 Engineers
- AJArvind Jain
alerts, you know, things that are going bad. And, and, and we built this agent that actually now is taking care of like 95% of those issues automatically for them. But even there, it's actually doing it a cost which is actually questionable. Like, you know, is it actually more effective than, and more, is it more efficient than humans? Uh, we, we were, we were spending a million dollars a month on, on that particular agent. Um, the ... And that was actually more than the cost of-
- HSHarry Stebbings
A million a month?
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Are you buying Cristiano Ronaldo? What are you doing? [laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
No, no, like of a volume in the air cost are like that. I mean, the, this, it is, it is quite expensive. So the-
- HSHarry Stebbings
But sorry, can I just go back?
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You said, you said, 'cause I, I discuss this a lot on the show-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... so you're making me much smarter. You think that spending 3.8% of developer salaries on these tools is a lot. If you think that's a lot, then these model providers are absolutely screwed.
- AJArvind Jain
Well, I mean, uh, I think, I think the point that I'm making is, well, the 3.8% number is actually doesn't seem high at all, like when you, when you look at it that way.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
But I also know that already you see with open source that you can do the same amount of same work for a 10th of the cost.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
Right? That's number one. Um, number two, like historically, uh, for as far as I can remember, you know, we've not put technology cost and labor cost, you know, in the same sort of sentence ever before. This is the first time you're actually hearing that. That, hey, I would rather have fewer humans and more tokens. The first time. And I just feel like, you know, this is not how technology works. Like the models are supposed to get cheaper and cheaper.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
The tech is going to be more and more affordable.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But, but as ... I'm so sorry. This is so funny for me 'cause you're, you know, the co-founder of Glean and Rubrik, and so who the fuck am I but a podcaster? Uh, but this is exactly what technology's for. This is agents being proactive, having an opinion, making a decision.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
They should absolutely be included or put in the same sentence as labor-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... because they are replacing the labor-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... that we used to spend money on.
- AJArvind Jain
I, I think good technologies figure out how to make technology really, really cheap, and it's gonna, it's gonna happen here too. That's, that's my belief. Like, you know, you're, you're gonna see it. You, you're gonna see inferencing costs, um, come down by orders of magnitude. I think we saw, we saw something bizarre actually, like the, in the last six to nine months, like every model actually increased their per token price. And like if you, if you go back, you know, 15 months, everybody thought that the token p- Per, like per token price is gonna just keep falling like it was before. So, so we don't know, like, you know, what, what happened here. Like, you know, this is also sort of unique. We, uh-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, they needed to prove that they were good businesses before they went public. That's what happened [laughs] .
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I can say things that you can't.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah, yeah. But my, my bet is on AI getting much, much cheaper than what it is today.
- HSHarry Stebbings
If AI gets much, much cheaper than it is today, these already loss-making businesses which prop up our entire global economy pretty much at this point are very threatened.
- 37:22 – 39:03
Per Person Productivity Will Go Up, But So Will the Bar to Compete
- AJArvind Jain
but so will the demands. To make the same amount of revenue, you have to produce a 10X better product in the future unfortunately.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When you think about token spend internally-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... how did you s- sit down and think about it? As a team? Sitting with your CFO? How did you go through the decision of how to think about token budgeting?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, I think we did probably what most companies did, which is we didn't do anything. [laughs]
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
So, so I, I think, like, you know, 'cause we were in the, we were in this phase of let people figure out what they can do with this tech. It's a quote-
- HSHarry Stebbings
And what did you see? People went crazy? People didn't adopt it? What happened?
- AJArvind Jain
There's, there's a power law. Like, you know, in our company and also at all of our customers, you will see some people who spend $10,000 or $15,000 in tokens every month, and then you have others who are spending $20. Um, one thing is interesting though, that everybody has embraced AI to some degree. Like, everybody's using the, the basic, you know, as, as I mentioned before, the number one application of or use case for AI today in the world is information seeking, question answering, and everybody's doing that. So you see the entire, like everybody on the team, in our team, as well as our customers, they're all doing that. Everybody's asking questions. Everybody's getting some basic summarization s- information synthesis going. But the advanced, advanced use cases are limited to, like, 5% of the employee base.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Is there anything you do as a leader to try and infuse AI as aggressively as possible? We had Nikesh from Palo Alto on.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Every week he has a leadership meeting-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... where he's like show and tell, and everyone needs to stand up and show something that they've done with AI that week, that it replaces what they do, improves their job,
- 39:03 – 46:56
The AI Power Law Inside Companies
- HSHarry Stebbings
whatever it is. Is there anything that you can do?
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah, that's, that's actually a really good idea. Like, you know, I've, I've thought about doing that. Uh, we, we limited the token maxing dashboards, and I th- I always thought that was not the right idea, um, to, to just sort of, you know, reward people who are consuming more tokens. Um, I feel, I felt like, you know, we didn't need to do that. You know, we are a native AI company ourselves, and people are already kind of, um, educated enough, and they will use AI when they need to. Um, but executives, like, you know, sharing a success story, uh, we haven't sort of demanded it from every single exec every single week. Um, but we have, uh, we have the showcase. Like in our town hall, for example, we'll always ask people to share those wins. Like every, every town hall, like, you know, there's a section dedicated to these are the new AI agents that teams are using to do work, to work differently.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask, in terms of the execs and the people that you have-
- AJArvind Jain
Mm
- HSHarry Stebbings
... I think recruiting has never been harder.
- AJArvind Jain
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How hard is recruiting today with some of the largest model providers, as we said, paying just enormous salaries that we haven't seen before?
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah. Um, I, I, I would actually say I maybe, maybe, like, the last two or three months, let's, let's put that aside for a minute. I would say that r- uh, recruiting was actually getting easier for, um, compared to the, the SaaS peak time.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Wow. Why?
- AJArvind Jain
Because I think, like, companies have been more, um... they haven't been growing their headcount. Like if you look at the big, the largest employers of tech talent, uh, many of them actually haven't been growing. Many of them have been laying off continuously. I think about Meta, for example, right? Like in every year, there's significant layoffs. And I don't know the overall headcount. My guess is that it's probably down from the peak of like 2021 or 2022, right? Um, so actually there was more talent available in the market as such, um, than before. But, but if you now start to talk about, okay, AI talent, ML talent, um, top people, top people are sought after, you know, way more than ever before. And, and, and also the, the pay scales have completely changed, and not just from the model companies, but even from startups because, uh, because, you know, startups are also [laughs] like, you know, you are giving them too much money to, to compete, um, you know, for talent. So, like, even, even startups actually these days pay a lot.
- HSHarry Stebbings
We have to.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah, we have to 'cause, uh, their alternatives are so large too.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And actually, if it costs three, four, 500 grand for a great dev-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... well, shit, the $2 million seed round just doesn't go anywhere.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
For the founder building the team, even if they don't take a salary, if I'm gonna hire four people-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... I need 6 million bucks.
- AJArvind Jain
That's right.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think founders should raise large seed rounds?
- AJArvind Jain
I think it's better. Like, I always prefer to raise as much, you know, of a round as you can, uh, on, on, you know, from the get-go.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What round felt the most highly priced?
- AJArvind Jain
So first actually, we never actually went out to raise, um, um, you know, except for our first round of the company. You know, we always had somebody come in, and it was a relationship that got built over some time and kind of became the de facto, like, you know, that, you know, they are gonna be the ones putting money in. Um, I would say like our, our, our Series C Probably felt the most, um, I guess you could say the most expensive 'cause we barely had any business. Like, definitely like, you know, sub $2 or $3 million, maybe $5 million. I don't remember exactly, but then the valuation was north of a billion. And so that was, that was extreme. Um, like, and I think we-- But we, I guess we, you know, we, we, you know, we take what we get.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I mean, that's incredible. Do you worry about scaling into that when you're doing it? Or do you just head down and think, "This is great, a low dilution for a high price"?
- AJArvind Jain
The way we thought about it more was that that was a, that was a s- you know, that was a statement to be made, um, to the prospective employees, um, more than anything else, if we wanted to make the market understand that we're building something special, and that kind of gives us that validation.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do employees give a shit who your investors are?
- AJArvind Jain
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, the-
- 46:56 – 48:10
Which Roles Will Disappear First: Analysts, Recruiters & BI Teams
- AJArvind Jain
It is, yes. But, uh, as I said, like, you know, you have to do 10 times the work to get the same amount of revenue from your customers in the future. You have a much smaller team to deliver the same amount of work that you used to deliver before, but you just are forced to do more.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Got you. Okay. And then what role do we have today will we not have? What do we look at and go, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe we used to do that"?
- AJArvind Jain
A lot of analyst roles, like, or like the d- the, uh, the data analyst roles which are not business thinkers. You know, they were given a task that, "Hey, like, I need to see this data," and then they produce, like, they, they sort of go and build those specific dashboards, configure back-end systems. I think, like, that, that kind of work definitely goes away. Um, the-- Uh, I think business intelligence is going to be very different. Um, business owners will directly be able to get answers to their questions. So, so business, business analysts like, you know, data analysts, you know, that's sort of one. Um, many HR roles. Sourcers, for example. S-uh, sourcer like in recruiting. That's a role that I think, uh, is going to definitely get consumed in, like, you know, into like a full-cycle recruiting
- 48:10 – 51:40
Do We Need Sovereign AI Models?
- AJArvind Jain
role.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Uh, I do have to ask one final one, which is we're sitting here in Europe, and it brings about a question of sovereignty.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
The US and Europe bluntly have not come up to muster-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... so to speak, on open source.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think we will have a world of sovereign models? And do you think, given what we've seen in the last month or so, that we need to have sovereignty over our models?
- AJArvind Jain
The desire for sovereign models Like, is, is strong. And it was actually, I w- I would say, like, it was probably stronger, uh, a year back compared to now. At least, like, you know, I feel like that I'm hearing less of it to some de- you know, like the, th- there was a period where every co- every nation thought that they could build one. Um, there were... When AI was still in its early stages. But then, like, a lot of those, uh, nations actually f- figured out that, you know, this, you know, that's not going to be the way. And so they're okay with, um, letting, you know, their enterprises within their own countries, you know, use OpenAI or Anthropic or all the other models. So, so I don't... I'm not an expert. I don't know, like, you know, whether this trend is on the, on the rise or, or sort of like, you know, on the fall a little bit.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I think it's unequivocally on the rise given what we saw with the Trump administration banning, you know, Anthropic's latest models.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And this understanding from a lot of especially Europeans that we cannot rely on a US individual-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... who could ban our access to intelligence.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Like you-
- AJArvind Jain
But, but, but where are the results from it?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, I mean, that was a month ago. So I think to expect a standup model within three weeks would be tough. [laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but like, you know, even before that, I think the... it just hasn't happened, right? Like, you know, the only country in the world, you know, that has produced models outside of US is China.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
And then of course may- maybe a little bit in, like, you know, France with Mistral.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Is that sim- simply an incentive problem, the lack of open source community in the US and why we don't have any US open source to real degree and substantiveness?
- AJArvind Jain
No, I th- I think the... Well, like th- there is good, good open source community in the US, um, in many other areas.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, I mean, what open model from the US?
- AJArvind Jain
No, there's no open... Yeah, you're right that we don't have open models, but it's not because open source as a, as a, as a movement, as a dev- you know, as a concept is weak in the US. It actually worked quite strong. It's probably because if you think about models, the, um, they require a lot of upfront investment, which is not open source friendly in many ways. A lot of open source software has been skunkworks, like developers just getting no funding associated with them, and they still get something built. They couldn't build models that way, and so that's why, like, you know, naturally this thing didn't work out. Um, and, and you, you know, you need th- these techniques, you know, where, like, super high investment is not n- needed. Um, um, and the-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you worry then when you look at the sta- you know, I, I, I spend a lot of time on Open Router.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I see the model usage and traffic and like, you know, Anthropic today was first US model, and it was seventh. The first six were Chinese. Do, do we just like go, "Ah, f- fuck it. Who cares that the CCP are funding the top six models?"
- 51:40 – 52:25
Chinese Open Source Dominates Open Router
- AJArvind Jain
The fact that, you know, you can actually run inferencing on those, like, you know, in, in that contained environment makes people feel comfortable and... But I, I don't think, you know, that's, like as a, um, as US, you know, like, you know, US won't feel, absolutely won't feel okay with, you know, that trend. There's, there's, there is good work that's happening now to actually promote open source and model development in the US. There's some models coming out.
- HSHarry Stebbings
The alternative-
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah
- HSHarry Stebbings
... is that Sam and OpenAI give 5% to Trump, and then he puts regulatory, regulatory capture on Anthropic and OpenAI and puts a tax on open source.
- AJArvind Jain
Well, I hope not. [laughs] You know, that I, that's, uh... I don't, I, I, I, I doubt that's, that's gonna happen.
- 52:25 – 54:30
Sam Altman's 5% to Trump
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why would... Well, I'm so sorry. I'm, I'm learning. Why else would Sam give them 5%? It's a quid pro quo. I need you. You need me.
- AJArvind Jain
Well, I mean, I guess I just believe more in the US system and the ultimately curbing, uh... I, I don't think right now, by the way, you need to curb open source. Like, you know, it's too far behind in the US.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You don't think Sam and Dario are sitting going, "Oh wow, we underestimated this, and this is a core threat to our business"?
- AJArvind Jain
I mean, like, they, they probably are thinking that, but I don't think, uh, they can fix that by, by through regulation, um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
You don't think that Sam will be calling up Trump g- g- who he has a direct line to saying, "Hey, the CCP are funding your biggest, our biggest competitors, and we cannot promise that there isn't a back door to Xi Jinping. You need to stop this, and I'll give you 5% for your troubles"?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, isn't the argument the other way around? Like, you know, that right now there are all these open source models which are very good, and they're all built in China.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mm-hmm.
- AJArvind Jain
And US needs to build its own. Like, you know, we, the US can't be seen as a, as a country that doesn't innovate on technology, so it's actually paramount for the US to build open source models.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, I think Sam will be saying it takes billions of dollars and years of time. Trump, defend America and support OpenAI and Anthropic and put barriers up to prevent Chinese, which is open, models from getting adoption, taxes, bans.
- AJArvind Jain
Those, those sh- maybe yes, but the, um, but US open source models, that they are going to have a lot of tailwinds, and they have to. Like, you know, this is a known, accepted, uh, like, issue that every technologist in Bay Area, you know, talks about. There's a lot of, lot of motivated parties that actually want to promote, like including NVIDIA, for example. You know, they're putting a lot of investment in promoting, like, you know, development of great open source models in the US.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I hope they succeed. [laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
Absolutely. [laughs] God, yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Uh, a multi-model world is important
- 54:30 – 59:57
Quick-Fire Round
- HSHarry Stebbings
for all of us.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Uh, listen, I'm gonna do a quick-fire round with you. So I say a short statement. You give me your immediate thoughts.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Does that sound okay?
- AJArvind Jain
Okay, yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What's your biggest advice to someone studying computer science today?
- AJArvind Jain
It's fine to study it. Don't, don't, don't be Uh, don't get too worried because what other people are telling you.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Which legacy company has adopted AI the best, do you think?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, are you willing to call Google a legacy company?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- AJArvind Jain
Yeah. So Google probably rates higher than anybody else in terms of not only embracing AI internally, but also, uh, in their, like, you know, launching products. But then I guess they are AI companies, so it's kind of hard, [laughs] it's unfair to, uh, to put them in that category.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You start a new company and you can only take one investor. Who do you take with you?
- AJArvind Jain
Well, I, I, I think I'll take one of, one of our existing ones. We have great relationships with all of them.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Which one would you take?
- AJArvind Jain
I don't know. [laughs] I won't answer that question.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
I actually don't have the answer really. I got to think about it. I think it's probably circumstantial depending on, like, you know, what, what I'm doing. You know, different people bring different strengths.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What would you most like to change about the startup ecosystem that we see today?
- AJArvind Jain
I actually do think that, you know, there is, um, too much capital available today in the, uh, for startups. And it's actually sometimes creating failure paths for people. I think they're not getting what it takes to build a great company, right? Like, let me... I'll give you an example. Like, a startup that has raised a seed round decides to pay half a million dollars to an engineer, like you were saying before. Um, and this is happening today, and the startup founder is okay with it, the investors are okay with it. But it's just surely not a, a sustainable path to actually win. And they're paying it while Google is not. And Go- Google knows that they don't need to actually, um, uh, buy talent like that. So, so I think that is one thing that I feel, um, this overabundance of capital is getting startups to sort of create structures which are not going to be sustainable for them.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you worry about the lack of exit options that are now becoming more and more real? And what I mean by that is, like, honestly, if you don't have a billion in revenue today, it's hard to go public. Tech acquirers, your big companies, are very specific about what they want to buy. PE, licking its wounds from having a portfolio that's full of Medallias.
- AJArvind Jain
Mm-hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's a tough landscape.
- AJArvind Jain
Like, startups have never been easy.
- HSHarry Stebbings
[laughs]
- AJArvind Jain
Like, I think, in fact, you know, for, for all, for, I would say in, in the last 25 years that I've seen, I would say it's been, it's easier to build a startup and get a good exit from it these days than it used to be in the past. Like, startup's a brutal, it's a brutal game. Like most of the-
- HSHarry Stebbings
What does no one know about being a founder and CEO from the outside that they should know?
- AJArvind Jain
That it's not a, a sexy job. Like, it's actually one of the most stressful, um, things, and you really have to be crazy to do that.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I think they, I think they know that now. I think one for me is that you have to consistently be unhappy. You should never be happy, I think, as a CEO because there's always something that needs doing, could be done better.
- AJArvind Jain
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 1:00:08
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode jX-Uq8JJ_j8
