Hip Hop’s Origin Story, Told by the Legends Who Lived It

Nas 0:00 Before hip hop became a global business, before the world understood what this music could be, Kurtis Blow was out there helping make history.

Kurtis Blow 0:08 We built the music and the culture from the ground up. We didn't even call it hip hop. It was called rocking, breaking, burning, partying.

Nas 0:18 How does it feel, Kurtis, to see little Joey become Run-DMC?

Kurtis Blow 0:23 I remember him at 13. I used to protect him from Russell.

Nas 0:27 Yes.

Kurtis Blow 0:27 Couldn't nobody touch him. Like the movie Krush Groove. This guy right here, he was my heart. Still is.

Nas 0:33 This man said If I Ruled the World. You did rule the world, so I had to do your song over with Miss Lauryn Hill. How did you like that song, my brother?

Kurtis Blow 0:41 Oh my gosh.

Nas 0:48 Man, I'm on a stage with-

Kurtis Blow 0:50 Yeah

Nas 0:50 ... all, all my heroes. All my heroes.

Kurtis Blow 0:53 Hey, Nas. Absolutely.

Nas 0:55 You know, the way y'all looked like, y'all looked like radios back then. I was as a kid, that was the face. Speakers was what I was looking at. I would stare at the radio just like, "What's their lives like?"

Kurtis Blow 1:07 Well, I think I should tie my shoes.

Nas 1:10 Those some nice shoes too, Mr. Blow. Mr. Blow.

Kurtis Blow 1:12 Absolutely.

Nas 1:13 Clean. So tonight, ladies and gentlemen, we're celebrating one of the architects of this culture. Before hip hop became a global business, before the world understood what this music could be, Kurtis Blow was out there helping make history, and for me personally, his music became part of my own journey. So this conversation is more about, uh, legacy than, than records. It's about the man, the movement he started, and the legacy he carries. So let's get right into it. Mr. Kurtis Blow, the king. What was it like? Take me back to Harlem, New York, before the record deals, before the hit records. What was young Curtis Walker dreaming about? Did you ever imagine hip hop would take you around the world?

Kurtis Blow 2:09 Wow. Well, you know, going back to those days when hip hop was really, really brand new, I mean, we didn't even call it hip hop.

Nas 2:27 Mm.

Kurtis Blow 2:27 It was called rocking.

Nas 2:30 Mm.

Kurtis Blow 2:31 Breaking, burning, partying. You know? We just loved music, and we wanted to have a good time, you know? It, it, it, the context of the whole situation was we were coming out of the civil rights movement-

Nas 2:52 Mm

Kurtis Blow 2:52 ... in the 1960s. I remember Martin Luther King was assassinated. Ma- Malcolm X, you know, JFK, RFK, you know. Community organizers were having debates and protests with activists and government officials, and they were arguing. It was traumatic during that time. But there was a community organizer who wrote a book, and he had this one statement. He said, you know, "The buildings are burning down on one side of the street, but the kids on the other are trying to put something together." Mm. Mm. And, you know, I don't know if you know about the Bronx in the '70s. There was a documentary called The Bronx is Burning and all of that, and, and, and landlord owners would just fire up, you know, put their building on, on fire just to collect the insurance money. And so every block had a building being burnt down to the ground. So we also hung out in these abandoned buildings, and you can go in there. You s- uh, the first time we would see something like graffiti, you know, a guy would sign on the wall with a magic marter, marker, "My name is John. Here I am. Now I'm not here." So now you know. [laughs] And so, um, you know, that was the graffiti, but it was like degradation. I remember, uh, the president came to New York. He's, and he refused to give us money because New York was broke at the time. And so, uh, I remember in the newspaper, "The president says no to federal aid to New York City to clean it up," because of all the, the degradation that was going on with the buildings and everything. But, you know, we came out of that era, that, that, that moment in time where we didn't have anything. We had nothing. We built the music and the culture from the ground up with nothing. Mm. Absolutely.

Nas 5:19 Mm.

Kurtis Blow 5:19 With nothing. [audience cheering] Just the love of the music, you know. It was very, very important, you know. Uh, it was more like escapism for us. Uh, I remember just going to the club and, and putting my head in the speaker and listening to the bass rumble all the way down to my toes, and I would close my eyes and just go off, and that was hip hop to me, you know?

Nas 5:52 Was, was it disco music you was listening to?

Kurtis Blow 5:56 Uh, [laughs] uh, i- that's a good question because it, it was definitely disco. I am, uh, a avid supporter- Of that era. Uh, disco music was so very important. Like I say, you know, we coming out of the civil rights movement, and then we have the right to vote, and then we have the hippies and the flower childs and, you know, love your neighbor movement. And dancing became our greatest pastime. Everyone would work all week. You work hard all week and you go to the disco or the club downtown with the strobe lights and the disco ball and the lights are flashing and everybody's looking good with suits and ties and suit dresses, and we danced the night away, and that was it. So, so hip hop-

Nas 6:54 Yeah

Kurtis Blow 6:54 ... came out of that era.

Nas 6:56 Mm. Yeah.

Kurtis Blow 6:57 I call it a mutation-

Nas 7:00 Mm

Kurtis Blow 7:00 ... of disco.

Nas 7:02 Wow.

Kurtis Blow 7:02 Even bo- more so, it's ghetto disco.

Nas 7:06 [laughs]

Kurtis Blow 7:08 Yeah.

Nas 7:08 Yeah, I like that.

Kurtis Blow 7:09 I'm from the hood. I'm up in Harlem. I didn't have the money to pay to get in those clubs. So in 1975, I was 16. I got a phony ID down on 42nd Street. Ooh. Right?

Nas 7:28 Yeah.

Kurtis Blow 7:29 And so it made me 21. Wow. So I could get in all the clubs. Man, I went to the Le Vigidas, uh, Nemos, Nell Gwyn, Superstar Cafeteria, Hotel Diplomat, Ipanemas, The Garage. Man, I was there. You name it, I went to every disco in New York City. Wow. Because I was studying to become a DJ, so I wanted to see all the different styles and do my research and find out, all right. Yeah. So I ran into DJ Holloway up in the Bronx, 371.

Nas 8:08 I thought he's from Harlem, DJ. Yeah.

Kurtis Blow 8:10 He's from Harlem-

Nas 8:11 Yeah

Kurtis Blow 8:11 ... but he was number one up at Club 371, the House of Joy and Fun. Wow. And that was it. I saw him. He had a line around the block trying to get it in. Mm. And man, I saw this man just do some incredible stuff on the microphone that I never heard before. Now I'm an emcee already, right? I've been rapping or let's say emceeing since 1974 in Harlem at the Wham.

Nas 8:39 '74.

Kurtis Blow 8:40 Wow. And '74 is when I started emceeing. I was trying to impersonate my hero on the radio. His name was Hank Spann, WWRL, Super 16. I'm the server. [laughs] Wow. So, so I did that voice impersonating him at a, a club called The Wham. It was a old police station on 152nd Street in Amsterdam, the Hill, and across the street from the Battlegrounds. I know you heard of the Battlegrounds. Mm-hmm. 151st and 152nd, it's a park right there. We did battles right there. Uh, but anyway.

Nas 9:19 Real history, y'all.

Kurtis Blow 9:20 That was my first job.

Nas 9:21 Real history.

Kurtis Blow 9:23 The Wham.

Nas 9:23 New York history and hip hop history.

Kurtis Blow 9:26 Yeah.

Kurtis Blow 9:27 So it, it just-

Nas 9:27 For somebody that was there. So how'd you d- how'd you get discovered? Sorry to cut you off. How did, how did Kurtis Blow get discovered as a rapper and signed to, to be the first rapper on a major label?

Kurtis Blow 9:40 Um, well, as the years went by, you know, I convinced Russell. Russell and I met in college, '77. Uh, well, I went to college a year earlier. Um, I was 17 when I met Russell, and convinced him to come over to my block in Harlem and listen to me DJ.

Nas 10:09 Ooh.

Kurtis Blow 10:10 So I had it all set up.

Nas 10:12 [laughs]

Kurtis Blow 10:12 I had my crew, you know, my team.

Nas 10:14 [laughs]

Kurtis Blow 10:14 My whole block was there. It was crowded. We had a, I don't know, about 150 pe- people in the house party. And I'm sitting there, I'm doing my whole Holly whipping. I'm, "Throw your hands in the air and wave them like you just don't care. And if you got on clean underwear, somebody say, oh, yeah." Oh, yeah. [laughs] Right? And somebody scream, ho, all that stuff, the crowd response. And he heard that and our crowd, it was set up, you know. When he came in, I said, "All right. Let's go." Right? And we s- threw on Good Times. Oh, my gosh. [laughs]

Nas 10:51 Hal Rogers.

Kurtis Blow 10:52 You know? And so I rocked the Good Times for Russell, and we became friends. Uh, went back to school, and I learned in communications, that was my major. I learned in communications if you wanna make it in the big city, you know, New York, we had a lot of competition. There was like at least 50 MCs during that time. Wow. You know, in '78, '79. And so, uh, I said, uh, um, I learned that if you want to compete, go out to the outskirts of the city, into the what we call the boondocks, and get yourself a track record. You know, pull out a number one in this market and a number one in this market, and then come back to the big city and say, "Hey, man, give me a shot. I'm number one here. I'm number one over there. You know, I'm doing my thing. I got a track record," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And that's how you get successfully, you know, a job on anything. But then, so I said, "Russell, let's open up a club out in your hood." We opened up the Night Fevers Disco, and that's where I met Run, Joey. And, uh, so I used to go out there on the weekends and stay at his house.

Rev Run 12:12 I used to cook breakfast for y'all.

Kurtis Blow 12:14 Yeah. [laughs] And, and, and so we had a great family, uh, got together-

Rev Run 12:19 Run's house

Kurtis Blow 12:20 ... you know, uh, and-

Rev Run 12:21 I used to give flyers, put the flyers up on Jamaica Ave. That was my first job, to put flyers up for-

Kurtis Blow 12:26 He was our greatest promoter

Rev Run 12:27 ... Rush Productions.

Kurtis Blow 12:28 Yep.

Rev Run 12:29 Rush Productions, and Kurt was down with Rush Productions as a promoter with Russell, so they promoted Kurt. They both went to CCNY.

Kurtis Blow 12:36 Right.

Rev Run 12:36 And I was just a little kid wanting to be down, so whatever I could do to get down, I would do. W- whether it's cook breakfast or get them socks or whatever. I remember my father taking them to the store. I just used to cater to them, and I was just trying to sneak my way in, and Kurt took me under the wing.

Kurtis Blow 12:52 Yep. Yeah. And, a- and, you know, that story that you told about you, uh, breaking your arm.

Rev Run 13:00 Yes.

Kurtis Blow 13:01 It was your wrist.

Rev Run 13:02 My wrist.

Kurtis Blow 13:02 I thought it was your arm.

Rev Run 13:04 No, it was my wrist. I broke my wrist.

Kurtis Blow 13:05 Okay.

Rev Run 13:06 And, um, I was br- heartbroken because not only my wrist was broke, my heart was broke 'cause I couldn't go on tour, 'cause I was his DJ.

Kurtis Blow 13:13 Yeah, but, but, but-

Rev Run 13:14 How, how old were you, Run? I was probably f- 14, 15.

Kurtis Blow 13:18 You see? And, and so I used to stay at his house a lot.

Rev Run 13:22 Yep.

Kurtis Blow 13:22 Right? Because I'm coming out on the weekend with a whole two crates of records and taking the train and a bus and all that, and then I start driving cab.

Rev Run 13:32 You was a DJ before you was a rapper.

Kurtis Blow 13:33 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Rev Run 13:34 You was like a mixture of a DJ and a rapper.

Kurtis Blow 13:36 Of course, yes, yes.

Rev Run 13:37 Yep.

Kurtis Blow 13:37 Yes, a DJ.

Rev Run 13:38 Yeah, I remember that.

Kurtis Blow 13:39 Both, both of you were.

Rev Run 13:40 Yes, I started out as a DJ.

Kurtis Blow 13:42 But the one thing, like Joey used to... He had a attic-

Rev Run 13:47 Mm-hmm

Kurtis Blow 13:48 ... upstairs, right?

Rev Run 13:50 Yeah, took it over from my brother.

Kurtis Blow 13:51 And him and the whole crew used to be up there. His dad bought him some turntables.

Rev Run 13:57 Turntables, yep. But I... No, you bought the turntables by paying me.

Kurtis Blow 14:01 Ah, okay.

Rev Run 14:01 You used to give me $35 a show, which was a billion dollars back then, and I brought some Quantas. I wasn't able to get the Technics.

Kurtis Blow 14:08 Ooh.

Rev Run 14:08 Remember the Quantas? And I used to DJ, and I got real fast. I used to go so fast you'd just catch air.

Kurtis Blow 14:15 He was awesome. Incredible as a DJ.

Rev Run 14:17 Catching air. Nothing.

Kurtis Blow 14:19 My guy.

Rev Run 14:19 The ladies about to say something.

Kurtis Blow 14:21 We had a show, he would come out by himself, DJ for a little while. And then I come out, not even introduce myself, and start DJing-

Rev Run 14:33 Yep

Kurtis Blow 14:33 ... and he would take the mic and start rapping.

Rev Run 14:35 Yep, that's where I met my wife, at, at, at, at, uh, Long Island, um, ring.

Kurtis Blow 14:40 And then after he-

Rev Run 14:41 Roller ring

Kurtis Blow 14:41 ... did a, a couple of numbers, he would come back to the turntables and cut up our intro-

Rev Run 14:47 Yes

Kurtis Blow 14:47 ... and now we start the show.

Rev Run 14:49 And that's how the, um, I came up with calling him out and then did, "Kur- Kur- Kur- Kurtis Blow. Kurtis Blow."

Kurtis Blow 14:56 Yeah.

Rev Run 14:56 I came up with that.

Kurtis Blow 14:57 That was his idea.

Rev Run 14:58 So and then he called me out, "Run, Run." Once I became my own person.

Kurtis Blow 15:03 Ah.

Rev Run 15:04 So I was thinking, I could take a record and scratch his name and call him out. So I was doing that until I broke my wrist, and I passed it to Davy, and they would throw on Christmas Wrapping, and then-

Kurtis Blow 15:14 Uh-huh

Rev Run 15:14 ... he'd call Kurtis Blow out. And by the time I became Run, Jay, I taught- told Jay, "Call me out Run, Run, Run, Run, Run." Yep.

Kurtis Blow 15:23 That's crazy.

Rev Run 15:24 That's, that's a incredible-

Kurtis Blow 15:25 True story

Rev Run 15:25 ... how does it feel, Kurtis, to see Little Joey become Run-DMC? How did that feel for you? Because you mentored him.

Kurtis Blow 15:34 Man, it's like, my God, I remember him at 13. I used to protect him from Russell.

Rev Run 15:45 Yes. Yep, yep.

Kurtis Blow 15:46 Couldn't nobody touch him anywhere.

Rev Run 15:48 Like, like a son.

Kurtis Blow 15:49 Like the movie-

Rev Run 15:50 I was his son

Kurtis Blow 15:51 ... like the, the son of Kurtis Blow. Like the movie Krush Groove, right?

Rev Run 15:54 Everything.

Kurtis Blow 15:54 This, this guy right here, he was my heart. Still is.

Rev Run 15:59 Yes.

Kurtis Blow 16:00 My heart. Right?

Rev Run 16:01 I was very lucky to have him. [audience applauding]

Kurtis Blow 16:03 Yes, yes.

Rev Run 16:03 Took care of me. I didn't even know why. I couldn't figure out how I got to be down with Kurtis Blow, but it was a big, big honor to be down with Kurtis Blow. And, um, then we made movies together, Krush Groove. And we toured together.

Kurtis Blow 16:17 One of my favorite movies. I don't know if you've seen Krush Groove. If you didn't see Krush Groove, you gotta see it. Came out in 1985. These brothers was doing it. I went in the movie theaters, and I lost my mind. Actually talked to D.O.C. last night, and he said he referenced the movie, and he talked about when the scene with you and your brother arguing.

Rev Run 16:39 Yep, as always.

Kurtis Blow 16:40 And then you went on stage. I don't know if you wanna share this-

Rev Run 16:43 I'll share it

Kurtis Blow 16:44 ... with the people. Where did you get the epic-

Rev Run 16:45 This is my mother-effing house.

Kurtis Blow 16:47 You get-

Rev Run 16:47 I got it from Eddie Murphy, 'cause Eddie Murphy made the joke about his father saying, "This my house. This is my mother [censored] house."

Kurtis Blow 16:54 [laughs]

Rev Run 16:54 "If you don't like it, you can get out." And I used to say that all the time, and Jay said, "You need to say that on stage." I was like, "What?" "Say it." I was like, "This is my mother..." And, and then I told Eddie. Eddie was like, "Get the [censored] outta here."

Kurtis Blow 17:07 [laughs]

Rev Run 17:08 I'm like, "Nah, I got that from you." He's like... Because I was inspired by Eddie, 'cause he lived right in Long Island, and he was so close, and he was so funny. And that's where my, "and my effing house" came from.

Kurtis Blow 17:17 You came up with this part. There's been a whole lot of superstars on this show.

Rev Run 17:21 Russell came up with that, because I was on tour with Kurt and the Fat Boys, which he produced the Fat Boys. He produced some Run-DMC. And my job, I mean, I... See, he was my dad, but you know you co- com- competitive with your father. I just... That's why I'm just so happy I was able to give him his flowers today, because I, I was a bad kid. I was not a g- I was not a good son for a while. I just-

Kurtis Blow 17:43 No, I was a bad father to him. [laughs]

Rev Run 17:45 Well, he was a bad father, the bad... So I just wanted to curse everybody out, so I used to come out and say, "This is my house." And I did it, throw mic stands and acted crazy. I don't know where I got it from, but, um-

Kurtis Blow 17:57 It's a Queens thing

Rev Run 17:57 ... got it from Kurt, I guess.

Kurtis Blow 17:59 And Kurtis Blow.

Rev Run 17:59 You know what else they used to do? At the end of their show, they say...

Kurtis Blow 18:07 Or throw the mic down.

Rev Run 18:08 They used to drop the mic down. We on tour.

Kurtis Blow 18:10 Every bit of attitude I could figure out.

Rev Run 18:12 They're crushing microphones every night. So-

Kurtis Blow 18:14 At the peak, though

Rev Run 18:15 ... the sound man comes to me

Kurtis Blow 18:17 The sound man says, "Kurt, Kurt, please, please, can you talk to them and tell them stop dropping the mics because they're breaking the mics every night. We had to buy-"

Nas 18:28 Between him and, and Jesse Jackson, right? [laughs]

Kurtis Blow 18:30 Right. I, I was like-

Nas 18:31 Tell them to stop cursing.

Kurtis Blow 18:32 No, no. I was like, I was like, "No, just make them pay for it." I paid for it.

Nas 18:38 [laughs]

Kurtis Blow 18:39 We were making good money.

Nas 18:40 You started paying, right?

Kurtis Blow 18:41 I did what I had to do, but I didn't stop.

Nas 18:43 And you were like the first hip hop artist on tours with the big gigantic Nile Rodgers and all these other big bands.

Kurtis Blow 18:50 Right. Yeah.

Nas 18:50 How was that being that rap guy on this big tour with all these guys who hadn't seen rap music?

Kurtis Blow 18:57 Oh, Marvin Gaye, Bob Marley. He was the big, the big kahuna. He was-

Nas 19:01 Did you say Bob Marley?

Kurtis Blow 19:02 He was on tour. I- Davy got sick one day and I was getting ready to set up the turntables-

Nas 19:07 Mm

Kurtis Blow 19:07 ... to DJ for him at the Garden when he was playing with Bob Marley. That's how old school and how great Kurt was, played with the biggest bands-

Nas 19:16 Wow.

Kurtis Blow 19:16 Yes ... ever.

Nas 19:17 Wow.

Kurtis Blow 19:18 Superstar. It was all amazing. It was like, I tell this all the time to people, like it was a, a dream story. You know? It was a movie, for sure. You know, meeting Michael Jackson, meeting Prince. I did a, a, a photo shoot with Prince. Now, this is right after I did If I Ruled the World and Krush Groove, so I was a little hot and then all that. And so I set it up with my record company, "Hey, hook up a photo shoot with me and Prince." I wanted to meet Prince, right? And so they set it up. We did it at a club down over in Memphis, Tennessee, and I'm there sitting right next to Prince, right? So there's 3,000 women inside this club, and another 2,000 outside that couldn't get in. But out, out of all those women who wanted an autograph and take pictures-

Nas 20:18 Y'all both had that curl

Kurtis Blow 20:19 ... Prince had two-

Nas 20:22 That curl was fly

Kurtis Blow 20:24 ... Prince had 2,000 shots. 2,000. He did it 2,000 times, and I did it about 20. [laughs]

Nas 20:32 Kurt, I redid your song over. I was so impressed by you. If I Ruled the World. That song, man, it did something to me seeing you do that song at Krush Groove, and it just... Yeah.

Kurtis Blow 20:46 [applauding]

Nas 20:50 So many hit records. So many hit records. Um, it's crazy you talk about the Bronx, but yet you had a song at the same time the Bronx was burning, you said-

Kurtis Blow 20:57 Uh

Nas 20:58 ... up in the Bronx where the people are fresh.

Kurtis Blow 20:59 AJ Scratch.

Nas 21:00 There was one DJ. You were telling a different story than what the news was telling. You was uplifting the Bronx.

Kurtis Blow 21:06 That's right.

Nas 21:06 You was uplifting and giving a message about the people, how beautiful we really were during the worst times ever.

Kurtis Blow 21:12 Mm.

Nas 21:12 So when you did If I Ruled the World, and I said, this man said If I Ruled the World, this Black man had the audacity to be in a movie on a silver screen and speak to the world and say, "If I ruled the world." You did rule the world. So I had to do your song over with Miss Lauryn Hill. How did you like that song, my brother?

Kurtis Blow 21:30 Oh, my gosh. Wasn't it incredible? [applauding]

Nas 21:36 Honored.

Kurtis Blow 21:37 I mean-

Nas 21:38 Homage to you

Kurtis Blow 21:40 ... I, I, I, I remember getting a cassette tape in my house. I just bought a new car, a new, uh, Nissan, one of those little, little cheap Nissans, right? Um, but it had the best sound system that you would ever hear. I mean, I'm talking about it was loud. Like, I mean, I went to the store and got some new speakers and all that. You know how they, you know, pump up their cars and stuff like that, but this was fidelity. And I took the tape, I put the tape in my car, and I listened to that tape for about two hours long, kept rewinding and rewinding. "What did he say? Oh my gosh, that's Lauryn Hill. Oh, my God." I kept listening to that song. I got so excited. I called Sony. I called them back. I said, "I got the tape. I listened to the tape." "So what did you think?" "I think that it is great, and I'm gonna tell you this. You put that record out and put normal promotion behind it, and I guarantee it will go double platinum." And it did. And it did. [applauding] So thank you.

Nas 22:59 Thank

Nas 23:00 you. Thank you. Man, I think that was the last question, 'cause I could sit up here and talk to all three of y'all for three hours.

Kurtis Blow 23:09 [laughs]

Nas 23:09 Shanté, the queen, do you have any last words?

Kurtis Blow 23:13 [laughs]

Roxanne Shanté 23:16 Everyone was wondering what I was gonna say when I sat here.

Kurtis Blow 23:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Roxanne Shanté 23:21 And I just need y'all to understand this. What you see in front of you right now is a true reflection of what Paid in Full is about. See, Paid in Full is not about anybody's personal feelings about anything that takes place in the industry, but it is about the love of hip hop and a person's accomplishments and their love and their passion and their contribution to hip hop. And as I have sat here, and as we all have sat here, we have heard this man talk about his passion, being there from the beginning, being there in the fight to make sure that hip hop has become what it is today. So that it's only right that he becomes an honoree of Paid in Full. So I look over to him right now and I say to you, "I love you."

Kurtis Blow 24:09 Thank you.

Roxanne Shanté 24:09 And congratulations because you deserve to be paid in full.

Kurtis Blow 24:14 [applauding] Thank you.