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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 12,169 words- 0:00 – 0:42
Introduction
- MAMarc Andreessen
Our assessment is basically that the world has changed, and it, it, the world has changed, is changing, and we're gonna try to change it further. And now there's, you know, enormous moral panic around AI and another one around crypto and so forth, and so it's just this constant kind of barrage of, of negativity. It's all these, uh, academics now trying to figure out how to jailbreak these things, and I just get so excited. And I, I just, I just like... I'm cheering on the jailbreaks.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
I'm just so excited. Like, the last thing I want is these things locked down. Like, I want these things to be out there, like, doing all kinds of crazy stuff. When I look at AI, what I, what I see is sort of a new kind of computer. But every once in a while, you get a, you get a platform shift that's, like, dramatic enough where it basically means that you, you both kind of can and have to reinvent from scratch the whole idea of what the thing is in the first place.
- 0:42 – 2:32
The Bonding Power of Gaming
- ACAndrew Chen
Marc, I, I don't know if you, if you remember the first time we met actually, uh, but we actually had a conversation about Zynga. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- ACAndrew Chen
You know, because it was during the, the whole Facebook platform. We had, we had lunch at Hobee's. This was, like, your, your favorite spot in, in, in Palo Alto. Many years later... Actually, we were just talking about this. Uh, you and your son JJ have continued to have gaming as part of, part of your, part of your experience, part of your life that, that you share. And so te- tell us about what, what, what you guys do together and kind of your connection to gaming.
- MAMarc Andreessen
I've got an eight-year-old, uh, just turned nine actually on Sunday. Um, his, [laughs] his birthday present was a brand-new Razer, uh, gaming laptop, uh, and he levitated right out of his little shoes. Um, so [laughs]
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
He's, he's currently glued to it. Uh, I was actually very impressed. So they got the 16-inch screen 'cause we want it to be portable, but they have screens now up to... I think they have one up to, like, 20 inches now. So I'm sure that's, that'll be, that'll be next year's present. Um, so, um, yeah, look, I mean, for those of you who don't have kids, the, the great thing about having kids is that, uh, you as a parent, you get to just, like, buy all the stuff that you always wanted as a kid.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and, uh, you, you, you do it under, you know, the cover of like, "Oh, yeah, you know, this is for the kid." Um, and then you bring it home, and then you take it out, and then you, and then you, you just, you know, basically play with it. Uh, he's been through, uh, four waves of, of, of gaming enthusiasm. And by the way, these endure. They're, they're actually all enduring. He goes back to them all, but Minecraft was the first one, um, and then Roblox, uh, and then Kerbal Space Program. And by the way, we... We're, we're homeschooling, and so he's doing, like, a ton of, like, along with this, l- like, a lot of math and, and, and physics and computer science and rocket design, you know, with his science teacher and stuff like that. So, like, Kerbal Space Program turns out to be just, like, incredibly good for that, and then, um, and then, uh, now, uh, recently Factorio. Um, and so he is building, uh, empires on alien planets fighting bugs. So I'm, I'm holding back on that... What's the new game? Is it, um-
- ACAndrew Chen
Helldivers
- MAMarc Andreessen
... Hel- Helldivers II.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
I'm holding back on Helldivers II for the moment, but, um, I, I will admit, I have the little... The, the flame is lit, and I... It's just a matter of time.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- 2:32 – 5:32
How Gaming Drives Technological Innovation
- ACAndrew Chen
Well, and gaming is, uh, you know, um, such a i- instrumental part of a lot of people's sort of personal experience with, with technology and computing. Um, and, and ma- many folks get into, into tech, you know, many of my friends because they were, you know, pirating games, uh, you know, f- trying to get, work around all the shareware, um, you know, restrictions in the '90s or, you know, kind of the, the, all the modern versions of that. And one of the interesting things that's been observed is that, you know, gaming as an industry is where a lot of these kind of alpha nerd technologies, whether it's GPUs or 3D or avatars, have been created. What do you think of as kind of the canonical example of that, um, in your mind, and, and why, why do you think this happens kind of in, in, in the games industry in particular?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Yeah, this is a really super old trend, and so this, this probably goes all the way back to probably Spacewar, uh, which was, like, one of the first video games that was on, I think, ti- like, timesharing mainframes back in, like-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... 1960 or something. So, like, the-
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah, bla- black and white. You're playing it at a university kind of thing, right? Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, like, basically the minute you got interaction computing, you immediately got gaming. Um, and then, you know, of course Pong early on. It's hard to remember, like, what a big breakthrough that was at the time. It's like in the early '70s. Basically it was even pre personal computing, I think, is the idea of having a video, an arcade, an arcade game machine. Um, and right, the, the story goes that Nolan Bushnell, you know, built this, founder of Atari, built, built the first Pong game, and he put it in a pizza parlor in Mountain View. Um, and the owner of the pizza parlor called him up a day later and was like, "Yeah, this thing's broken." You know, "It's a piece of junk. Get this thing out of here." And he goes in, and of course the problem is it's so jammed with quarters-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, that it literally physically can't take quarters anymore. Um, and so yeah, there's this, there's this, there's this recurring phenomenon. I, I think it's a bunch of things. I think one is just, like, you know, it's, it's, as we say, it's sort of, I don't know, uh, use the term sometimes founder-market fit. Um, you know, or, uh, people building for themselves. Um, and so people who are super into computers, you know, tend to love gaming, and they tend to wanna build great games. You know, I think another part is just the, the, uh, the sort of the both the need and the opportunity to kind of really jam the throttle forward on, on what the raw capability is of whatever the technology is. Remember when 3D acceleration was new. The minute you had that as a core capability, it was just like what's the most sophisticated possible 3D game you could build, and that happened before, like, all you started doing, like, CAD/CAM and all these other things. There's also a great thing about it, which is game, game, games are a mass market phenomenon, um, especially these days, and so it lets you drive price points down, right? K- it gives you, like, a direct sort of just path, like a real path, uh, to be able to take whatever the new capability is and drive it to the mass market super fast. And I, I, I full, I fully expect this trend to continue, and that's obviously what we're seeing with, with AI right now.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah, with AI and virtual re-
- MAMarc Andreessen
No, and by the way, also mixed real- I mean, look, mixed reality-
- ACAndrew Chen
That's right. That's what I was gonna ask, yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, AI, yeah, VR, VR, uh, VR, both VR and AR, like it's, it's, it's crystal clear. The known killer apps right now are, are games, like, by a, by a very wide margin.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah. Well, it, it seems like so much of VR has been marketed as sort of productivity and being able to do meetings and, you know, so on, but all the data is saying that it's sort of, you know, high school, high, super high retention. It's all, it's all, you know, kids basically playing social, social multiplayer-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- ACAndrew Chen
... you know, gaming.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, it's actually two, two tiers. Like, it's the ga- it's the game games, you know, to the ex- and then it's the... Right, and then it's the social, the social gaming environment. But it's specifically right. It's specifically the social gaming environments, not just social environments.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yes. Yes. That's right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
The ga- the games are key to the experience.
- ACAndrew Chen
That's right.
- 5:32 – 11:48
Technological Transitions: Moral Panics and the Promise of Progress
- ACAndrew Chen
So, so ev- everyone in the audience has, uh, has, has read your, your techno-optimist manifesto. You, you had to write it because obviously most people, for whatever reason, don't seem to be optimists [laughs] today.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- ACAndrew Chen
Why are there so many self-hating technologists? Like, what, what is the sort of, um- Uh, sort of r- root cause thinking.
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs] Yes. Yeah, so, so look, so there, there's this recurring phenomenon in the history of, of, of new technologies, which every new technology co- tends to come with what's called a moral panic, right? And so, and a moral panic is basically this term for basically there, there's a new thing, and so therefore it's evil and bad, and it will destroy the world. Um, and it... and if you go back in time, it's basically every single new technology. And so, like, there was a huge controversy over the introduction of electric lighting because it was gonna like, you know, completely disturb nature. There was huge controversy around bicycles. Bicycles were a super controversial technology when they first came out because it was the first time young people could actually voyage to, like, could easily get to, like, nearby towns and villages for dating purposes, and that really, like, upset people. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs] The, uh... Actually, the magazines at the time, this is like 1860s, 1870s. The popular magazines at the time actually had this thing. They, they did this whole moral panic around, they had this thing called bicycle face. Um, and they had all these articles about how if you got on a bicycle and rode it, uh, you, you... the, the exertion required would cause your face, you know, to scrunch up.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
And then, and then, and then if you rode the bicycle too long, your face would freeze like that. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
And then, you know, look, no, it's good. There was a massive moral panic around video games. I mean, it was just... it was super clear.
- ACAndrew Chen
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
I mean, it was just super clear-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... that, like, first-person shooters, you know, especially when, like, when that Columbine tragedy happened is when, you know, that whole thing went just, like, completely pear-shaped. But it was this, like, incredible, incredible thing of, like, we're training an entire generation of killers. And of course, what happened was video games took off and actually got, you know, for the, for the next thirty years, uh, actual, uh, you know, violent crime in the US actually dropped like a rock. So if anything, the, the correlation was the reverse. Uh, and so there, there's just this tendency. Now, now there's, you know, enormous moral panic around AI and another one around crypto and so forth. And so it's just this constant kind of barrage of, of negativity, and I think it's just something... You know, I don't know. It's, it's like, I guess a fair-minded person would say it's, like, fair enough. You know, the thing with new technologies is they, they actually do change the social order. Uh, you know, they do actually change how society works. And so, you know, maybe there should be some societal kind of screening mechanism for kind of deciding whether these new technologies are good ideas or not. And so may- maybe that's the generous explanation. The sort of ungenerous explanation is just people panic and freak out.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
And look, and, and then it always sounds more sophisticated to be negative than positive, right? It's like the, the positive person gets accused of being pollyannaish and wide-eyed and, you know, immature and, you know, you know, not cynical enough. And then the pessimistic person always sounds world... you know, world-weary and wise, and these are just like constant PSYOPs. And they're just like constant PSYOPs being kind of played on us and by us and at us. And then, you know, look, there's, there's a choice, and this is, you know, why I wrote the, wrote the manifesto. It's like then, then there's a choice of, like, how we think about these things, right? Um, and you know, it's really easy to let people talk you into thinking that something bad is happening or you're doing something bad or there's something dangerous. And it's, you know, it takes real force of will to go up against that and say, "No, actually, this is gonna be... This is actually gonna be really good." And, and it's, and by the way, it's not that new technologies don't have negative consequences. Like, you know, new technologies are tools, and they're gonna have both negative and positive consequences. But there's just such a rich history of the moral panic predicting societal doom, and then it actually turned out everything, you know, overwhelmingly on net was fine, and I, I think that will continue to be what happens.
- ACAndrew Chen
And, and you, you study this quite closely. It, it seems like it's unusual to me that, that the moral panic not only is originating in, you know, um, uh, places outside of tech-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- ACAndrew Chen
... but weirdly like inside of tech as well.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- ACAndrew Chen
You know, which is, which is my point about the self-hating technologists.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- ACAndrew Chen
Like, you know, like, like why, why is that a thing?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Oh, the millennials. [laughs]
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs] No, no, no. Gen Z's.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Gen Z.
- ACAndrew Chen
These aren't millennials.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Gen Z will, Gen Z will save us.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah, we gotta blame the Gen Z's. Yes. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Gen Z will... Gen Z has to save us. Um, you know, I think there actually is a little bit of a generational thing to it. You know, the boomers were like super socially activated, you know, the, in the '60s and '70s with like, you know, the anti-war protests at the time and the hippie movement and everything, and got like super into like, you know, politics and super animated. And then, you know, Gen X. I'm Gen X. So Gen X, we were all sort of cynical and blasé. We, we were like the reverse of, of the boomers. We were like, uh, we were just like disengaged, and we were slackers. Um, and we weren't-
- 11:48 – 21:37
Government, Innovation, and the Role of Regulation
- MAMarc Andreessen
that's right.
- ACAndrew Chen
Um, you know, in, in your essay, you, you, you talk, um, quite a lot about some of the negative impacts of overregulation-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm
- ACAndrew Chen
... and what's happened in nuclear and of course the current, current ongoing discussion about, about AI. Um, now, in the past, we've seen the government actually, um, sponsor these very big innovation pros- you know, projects, whether you're, you know, talking about NASA or, um... What, what does a modern kind of pro-tech political position actually, you know, look like? And what, what's the right way to engage government in, in all this?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, so people look back. You know, this movie Oppenheimer that just swept the Oscars, which is of course an extraordinary movie, you know, tells sort of the Manhattan Project story. Um, and then there's, you know, the famous Apollo project. You know, people look back on that, and Pe- my, my friend Peter Thiel in particular looks back on those projects and says, "Wow, like, those are kind of great achievements," you know, going to the Moon and the, you know, winning World War II, and like... And, and you have this, like, massive government-organized top-down, you know, Oppenheimer, General Groves, like, you know, military project. You know, they build new cities in, like, three days and, you know, they get all the world's leading physicists in one place and everybody's, you know, working on a, a, a single goal, and it's just this amazing achievement. And it's, it's like, why can't we do that anymore? And a- and, and with that sort of the deeper question is why can't the government do that anymore? And the answer is just, like, I... That was an artifact of its time. Um, and, and in particular, you know, the Manhattan Project was in the '40s, Apollo was in the '60s. Mo- what we... Modern venture capital startups as we know and understand it sort of started in the '70s. And so I, I, I think a big thing there is just adverse selection. Uh, the kinds of people who can run projects like that just don't work for the government anymore. Um, they, they're in the private sector. Um, and so it's just that, that avenue's not available. And if, if you need, if you need to reinforce your, your views on this, just take a look at the California High-Speed Rail project-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, which is now 10 billion... It's over 10 billion in spend, um, with, uh, zero ground broken. Like, not even an inch of high speed. It's like the California High-Speed Rail Prevention Program.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and I think they're gonna spend, like, $100 billion and, like, literally not build anything.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Like, uh, it's, it's quite amazing.
- ACAndrew Chen
Well, all, all these are measured by cost per, you know, mile or whatever. And what happens when you di- divide by zero? [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Divide, divide... Yes, exactly.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So oh, and you know, there's these BART extensions happening. It's even San Jose, which is a more rational city than San Francisco, and I think it's up to, like, I don't know the... There's, like, this mo- It's, like, this Doppler effect where every year that goes by, you add, like, another billion dollars to the cost and, and then project out the de- you know, the, the finish date another three years. So it's just this project that's just kinda, kinda, kinda go to infinity. And so, like, it is just... I, I just think those days are over. It's just not happening. And so w- w- what happens now... And by, and by the way, anybody basically smart I've ever run into in the government basically says the same thing. You know, it's like the Pentagon. We're not gonna build new weapon systems in the Pentagon. We're, we're gonna... It, it's gonna be pri- it's gonna be private sector, and, you know, therefore com- companies like Anduril, uh, uh, or Palantir. And then the relationship between the government and the private sector is just always a little bit fraught, right? Because there's, there's basically two ways to regulate things. There's basically one, one way to regulate things is sort of the traditional American way, which is, um, you know, e- everything is allowed except that which is prohibited, um, is sort of one approach to law. And then there's kind of the classic European approach, which is the opposite, which is everything is prohibited except for that which is-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... specifically permitted, right? And if you see, the, the EU is just passing this AI law right now.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah, the Act.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It's gonna be a version of that, right? Like, if... Yeah, so you can do AI in the, in, in Europe if you get approval from the government ahead of time, which they won't give you. Um, and then, you know, we applied that method in the US for nuclear power, right? We, we basically decided that nuclear power was prohibited by default.
- ACAndrew Chen
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, the, the nuclear power story is tremendously illustrative of this. So, uh, Richard Nixon in the early 1970s, uh, implemented two programs in parallel. Uh, one was a pro- a program called Project Independence, uh, which was to build 1,000 new civilian nuclear power plants in the US by the year 1980. Um, and the goal, you know, from the name Project Independence, was for America to be energy independent from the rest of the world. So number one, to be able to pull completely out of the Middle East, like, no more of that. Um, and then number two, uh, to have, like, basically infinite clean, you know, clean zero carbon, zero carbon emissions energy coming from nuclear power plants. Um, you'll notice that didn't happen. Um [laughs]
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
None of that happened, um, because his other program was called the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, um, and their job was to prevent that from happening. Um, and they did not approve a new nuclear power plant design for 40 years.
- ACAndrew Chen
Wow.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and so they, they implemented sort of, again, this, this, th- this other form. And so, you know, at that level, it's like, okay, then we're, you know, we're gonna get what we want. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and you know, we, we as a society have to decide which way we want this to go. Um, you know, e- everything about how the American government operates is oriented towards trying to switch more and more to the sort of classically European model to try to, you know, basically choke off, uh, avenues for, for private innovation. You know, look, a lo- a lot of people think that's, you know, tho- those ideas are good because, you know, the, the risk, like, what if things go wrong? But the, you know, the consequences are very, very severe 'cause basic logic, if the public sector can't do it, the private sector's not allowed to do it, then it's not gonna happen. And so, look, these, these are really big questions, and of course, it's hard. You know, they're not super, like, you know, flashy issues that are easy for a politician to get up in front of people and talk about. You know, this isn't gonna draw as much press attention ever, you know, as sort of the, the more politically sort of inflammatory topics. But, you know, this I'd say is a very serious underlying topic.
- ACAndrew Chen
How, how do you think about when founders read your manifesto, um, you know, as soon as it came out? I mean, you know, there was such a groundswell of, of support and, um, you know, all, all, all the builders on social media, you know, you know, talking, talking through this. And, um, how do you think about what founders can do or should do if they, if they agree with everything that you're saying? What's the next, next level after showing social media support and then, and then, and, and, and, and then what after that?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. So first just look, just [laughs] social, social media support's actually super helpful. So part of it's just like, what are people proud to stand for, right? Um, and if, if... You know, I don't know, to stand for something you have to be like a renegade, and you have to be like ready to just get attacked by everybody-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- 21:37 – 25:32
Envisioning the Future of Immersive Experiences
- ACAndrew Chen
If you were like, uh, you know, hypothetically you were exiled for a few years and you had a team of, you know, a couple dozen people to, to work on any, any problem of your choosing, um, you know, what, what area would you, would you end up?
- MAMarc Andreessen
So I should start by saying I have not pressure tested the following idea at all. I haven't done any of the things that we require our founders to do before we fund them, uh, in terms of actually thinking anything through. So this is just me speculating because I'm not, I'm not gonna do it. There is something I think super, super fascinating at the, it, it's, it's at the, it's at the con- convergence point of let's just say immersive entertainment or experiences and, you know, and, and I think VR/AR is one version of that, but also just like immersive worlds, um, uh, you know, on, on traditional screens. Um, uh, the intersection of that and then, and then, and then the intersection with, with, with AI. You know, we're, we're doing a lot of work in AI, a lot of work in gaming, a lot of work in media, and so I, I spend a lot of, a fair amount of time talking to folks in gaming, you know, thinking about AI and games. I've spent also a fair amount of time in, in, um, talking to people in like the entertainment industry about like AI in, in movies and, you know, TV and things like that. And of course that's, you know, quite controversial already. Um, the assumption in, in a lot of these conversations is just, oh, AI is a new way to create game assets or AI is a new way to do special effects in movies and I, I kind of wonder it's like actually, is there actually a new art form here, right? That's actually not a game and not a movie, but like it's something in the middle and it's something that basically, it's like an experience that's like totally tailored to the user, an experience that never ends. You know, everything is generated on the fly, you know, with a, with a level of sort of synergy but synergistic kind of, you know, feedback loop between, between the user and the system. Um, and you know, the, the metaphor some people have used for this is, you know, you know, dreams. Like, is, is, is there, is there like a new medium here which is basically creating dreams?
- ACAndrew Chen
Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It seems kind of obvious 'cause if you can, if you, if an AI can basically learn and generate content, then that seems like a straightforward thing. But what's interesting is like there, there is no, that's not a movie. It's, uh, very different than a movie, 'cause by the way it might go for five thousand hours, right? Um, and it might be seeded by a human creative, but you know, it might then, it might then be very, uh, you know, related to specific user. Movies aren't like that. It might be like a game, but it's also not quite a game 'cause maybe you're not playing it. Maybe you're experiencing it or maybe it's-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, maybe it's some other, you react to it or live in it in a, uh, in a different way, and there's, there's no precedent for this. There's no model. There's no company that does this. The movie studios aren't gonna do it 'cause they, they just make movies. The game studio companies aren't gonna do it 'cause they make games, and so I think there might be something new. Oh, and then of course, and then of course, you know, there's the single player version, but then there's of course the mind-blowing, you know, ones which are the multiplayer massively, you know-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... massively multiplayer dreams, like what is that?
- ACAndrew Chen
Right. Right. Yeah, I think, I think the new, the new formats are definitely interesting always because you could imagine when, you know, uh, user-generated content and getting content online, when YouTube comes out, um, in, uh, uh, you know, gets popular in two thousand five, two thousand six, you might have thought, "Oh, well, one day all the, you know, content creators are gonna make movies and put them on YouTube," but that's actually not what happened. You know, they actually ended up making all these, uh, you know, vlogs and all these shows and, um, you know, all, all these sort of n- new native formats that exist only on, on, on YouTube.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- ACAndrew Chen
Um, and then it turns out that watching, you know, an hour of, uh, you know, ten-second, you know, uh, video clips is actually more engaging than the, the Hol- the Hollywood format, uh, you know, of that. And so y- uh, in, I think in the same way, just as, uh, it, it might be easy to think about, um, just cost savings for, um, for, for, for gaming from AI that, that, you know, do- doing something that's completely a new format like, like what you're talking about sort of, sort of feels like that, that, that's the new category.
- MAMarc Andreessen
My, my nine-year-old, games and, and then YouTube, YouTube videos about games, you know, is his entire thing when he gets screen time. And so-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, he, he just like fl- I used to ask him, "Hey, you wanna go s- watch a movie?" And I could see in his head, I could see him doing the math of ninety minutes of movie versus forty-five YouTube videos.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
He's like, "No." [laughs]
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
So I finally created, I've created a movie club, Daddy Movie Club, uh, which is Sunday at lunch, um, where we watch movies. And, um, uh, he, he likes it once we start them, but like it's always on the way into the living room, he's kind of like-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs] "Can I bring my laptop into the movie with me?" Um, and so yeah, I think there, there's a lot of s- there's a lot of signals that
- 25:32 – 33:00
AI as a Partner
- MAMarc Andreessen
things are headed in this direction.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yes. Let's, let's talk about AI now, um, and, and something that obviously the whole, the whole firm and, and yourself are spending, um, a lot of time on. Um, so people often compare AI to just these big general technologies that have emerged, um, you know, ov- over the last few decades, whether it's m- mobile or internet. And in, in, in what ways does AI and everything that's been happening remind you of some of the prior waves versus, you know, what way is it completely new and different?
- MAMarc Andreessen
What's happening with AI right now doesn't map to any of those, and the, and the reason is because I... The, when I look at AI, what I, what I see is sort of a new kind of computer, like a, a, a fundamentally new kind of computer. And the way I would describe that, this goes to all of the c- by the way, all the controversial issues, issues around AI also, which is, um, you know, for 80 years we had a, we've had a model of a computer, which is sort of this like super lit- you know, literal thing that can like do math, you know, at a trillion cycles a second, but like you have to tell it specifically what to do every single time. And then, you know, and we call these, you know, deterministic computers where, you know, you tell it exactly what to do. It always gives you the same answer. It never, you know, it, it always gives you the exact literal answer. Um, by the way, if it doesn't give you the right answer on something, it's because you screwed up, right? You, you programmed it wrong. Um- Uh, w- when I use, you know, LLMs or diffusion models or these things, it's like, it's like, no, I'm dealing with a different kind of computer, right? There, there's input, there's output, it's doing things for me. Um, but it's a probabilistic computer, and you ask the same question twice, it gives you different answers, which is just in and of itself a pretty mind-blowing thing. Um, and then, you know, there... And then there's the hallucination thing and, and, you know, the hallucination thing is like, you know, it's this, it's this incredible thing 'cause, like, engineers look at the hallucination thing and they're like, "Wow, this is, like, a crippling problem, you know? I can't believe this thing is, like, making up answers. It doesn't know what the truth is."
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
But if you, if you put your kind of creative hat on or talk to creative people, they're like, "Well, it's creating," right? It's like you have a computer that's creating things, right? And you get into all these philosophical debates about what the nature of creation is and originality and all that, but, like, it's creating things. Um, and sometimes the things it creates are pretty funny, um, and pretty entertaining.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
These are, these are creative computers. Um, and, you know, there, there's been all these examples recently, but I think it was Alaska Airlines, uh, put one of these online as a customer support bot. A lot of airlines have some bereavement policy where you can get a refund for... You can get free flights to go to funerals or something. Um, and, uh, turns out Alaska Airlines didn't have a bereavement policy, but the, the LLM felt sorry for the, for the customer, so it made, it made up a bereavement policy-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, and promised him a refund on his ticket. Um, and then there was another case where the GM dealership put up a sales chatbot, uh, and it talked the customer into buying a Tesla. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs] So... And I... It's like, Tesla's a really great car. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Much more environmentally friendly. So if you're literal-minded, you look at that and you're horrified. But if you're, if you're, like... If you, you put your creative hat on, you're like, "Wow!" [laughs] Like, "This is, like, the coolest thing I've ever seen." I get excited whenever anybody is, is... Uh, I love on Twitter and, you know, there's all these, like, academics now trying to figure out how to jailbreak these things, and I just get so excited and I, I just, I just, like... I'm cheering on the jailbreaks.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
I'm just so excited. Like, the last thing I want is these things locked down. Like, I want these things to be out there, like, doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I think it's, it's absolutely fantastic. The point is, like, I think the metaphor, if anything, is to, like, the creation of the microprocessor or something. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's the, it's the bir- uh, the birth of a new kind of computer. By, by the way, if you go back in history, there, there's a great book on neural network, which is the foundational technology behind all this, was actually invented eighty years ago in, in 1943.
- ACAndrew Chen
Amazing.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Uh, it was the first neural network paper that basically we're still, we're still... All of our work today is, is still derived from that. Um, there was actually a debate, there was a debate in the nascent computer world in the '30s and early '40s when they were just getting the stuff to start to work, and there was, there was a whole school of thought that said this, what they call von Neumann machines, the sort of linear kind of model, was actually the wrong model and that basically the entire computer should have been built from scratch on a model of the human brain. And, and they, they had basically this exact discussion back then in sort of a very crude and simple form. And, and, and sort of history went one way, and now history's gonna, like, come back around, and now, now we have both to choose from. So I think now we're gonna live in a world where basically you're gonna have a proliferation of AIs in the same way that you've had microchips, uh, which is... And by, by the way, they're gonna be paired. Basically, I think anything with a chip is gonna have an AI, and you're just gonna... You just basically... You're just gonna assume that everything has an AI. Um, and there's gonna be, you know, many billions of tiny models running everywhere. There's gonna be a few big god models in the sky. Um, and then there's gonna be a lot of stuff in the middle, you know, being customized and tailored for all kinds of, all kinds of things.
- ACAndrew Chen
To, to what extent do you think that, um, you know, when, when the, the web was created and, you know, when, when mobile apps were created, because there was this rush to sort of redesign the, the, the user interface, um, that, that sort of allowed, uh, you know, ne- new startups to sort of, uh, be, be able to come into existence with the mobile native way of doing things as opposed to, you know, um, the, the, the prior version. And, and, and this, it's interesting in... Because the platforms are still kind of the same, and, and so to what extent do you think incumbents just have the upper hand by just integrating AI features into, into their existing products versus, versus, uh, you know, startups being able to do something from scratch?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. So this is the big thing that we always think about in venture. This is the big thing we always think about in our day jobs in venture capital, which is like, okay, there's certain technology shifts where the incumbents can just add the new thing, and then there's really not an opportunity for startups. Um, and the, the scenario here would be, you know, Photoshop just adds AI photo editing, and you're done, right? It's just... It's done. They just added it, and they're done, and it, it... It's just the world, world con- keeps going with Adobe as the big company. By the way, that's true for a lot of, a lot of new technologies are like that. You just kind of add the new thing. A- and by the way, even mobile, like there were some new mobile companies like Uber and, uh, and Lyft and Airbnb and... But, you know, look how, you know, Google and Facebook adapted to mobile just fine.
- ACAndrew Chen
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Like, there's, there's no, there was no mobile search engine, right? That, that took over. And one of the reasons Instagram is so big is 'cause Facebook deliberately made it big by transferring over a lot of the, a lot of the usage. And so it turned out there wasn't an in- independent startup opportunity there. Um, you know, but every once in a while, you get a, you get a platform shift that's, like, dramatic enough where it basically, it basically means that you, you both kind of can and have to reinvent from scratch the whole idea of what the thing is in the first place. And so the, the, the, the... That would be literally... You know, that'd be like Midjourney, right? So, so Photoshop plus AI editing versus Midjourney or, or Dall-E. Um, and, and so in, in, in, in the full version of the platform shift, basically the whole idea of Photoshop plus AI image editing is just, like, compl... You know, at some point just becomes completely irrelevant. Like, can, can you believe people used to do that? You know, people used to fiddle with pixels, like, seriously?
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, because y- you'll live in this new world, and in the new world, you'll just tell the machine what you want for a photo, for an image, and it'll generate you as many options as you want, and it's generating you something that's better than you would've been able to do anyway, and, like, you're totally happy. And the whole idea of fiddling with, you know, image pixels is like writing in machine code or something.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
People still ride horses, it's just, like, for, like, rich, fancy people. Like, for fun, right?
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and you know, I, I... You know, so, you know, in this scenario, someday people will still, still do image editing, but it'll be, like, three, like, weirdo designers in Norway or something that-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, will still be, will still be into this kind of thing, or graphic, you know, graph- graphic designers in their retirement. Um, um, and it'll just be a new way of doing things, right? And then basically our bet always is, like, we're... And we're, you know, when we make mistakes, it's 'cause we kind of, when we kind of overestimate the degree to which this is gonna happen. Um, but, but our whole thing is to basically try to get in front of this and try to, you know, basically make the assumption that you're gonna have complete turnover. And look, this has happened before. Like, there was an entire generation of mainframe software companies that turned over that didn't exist anymore basically once the PC came out. A lot of the PC software companies never adapted the web. A lot of those companies just went away. These kinds of shifts do happen. They are radical. The, the, the key question though is, like, can you reinvent the entire product? Like, can, can, can you imagine, like, basically just, like, the, the, the old rules don't apply anymore. There's a completely different way of doing the thing. Um, and, and, you know, this certainly feels like that.
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- 33:00 – 36:28
Big Models vs. Open Innovation
- ACAndrew Chen
Just talking a little bit more about kind of incumbents, there's, there's sort of this thought that, um, you know, it... There, there's a world in which, which the AI models are owned by a small number of companies, you know, the, the, the God models in the, in the sky versus the version where there are lots and lots of little things. And, and I know, you know, um, we've talked quite a bit about kind of the, the role of open source-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right
- ACAndrew Chen
... you know, potentially in AI, and, and it would be great to, to hear you expand on, on that and kind of the, the importance of that.
- MAMarc Andreessen
You know, the big companies, and this is, you know, this is sort of what we call the sort of incumbents, big tech companies, uh, doing AI, and then what we call the new incumbents, which are, like, the companies that have raised, you know, billions of dollars and are kind of new AI companies, but they're already incumbents. Um, you know, if you listen to them, you basically hear two things. Number one is, like, obviously everybody's only ever gonna use the big models. Um, and the, and the reason for that, by the way, it's a very good argument in that direction, which is they're just always gonna have the best answers, right? And, and, and, and, and, and what they're, what they basically say is, like, look, this market's gonna be like the search market was like, which is, you know, of course you're always just gonna ask Google all your search, search... Like, there's no market for, like, you know, vertical search engines in all these different domains. You just... Google just always gives you the best search answer on almost every, practically everything. Um, there, there was no... It turned out there was no startup opportunity to build, to build smaller search engines. Um, and so it's just obviously that everybody's just gonna run and everybody's gonna t- you know, tap into a ChatGPT or a Claude or something or a Gemini through an API and, you know, pay by the drink, and that's the way it's gonna work. And then, of course, the other thing you hear from those companies is AI is scary and evil and needs to be regulated-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, and we need this regulatory wall so that startups can't function anyway. And by the way, we should probably ban open source while we're at it, 'cause that's also evil and scary. Um, so and you know, it's, it's sort of interesting how those, um, uh, those, uh, you know, kind of statements kind of, you know, go together. Um, look, we're, we're big believers in the exact opposite, like I said. You know, we're, we're big believers that, um, there's just gonna be such a giant number of use cases. Specifically, there's gonna be a giant number of, like, local use cases. Um, like, you know, your doorknob is gonna have an LLM in it that's gonna control whether or not people get through the door, right? You know, and, like, you, you... Are you really gonna do a round trip up to the supercomputer in the cloud to do that?
- ACAndrew Chen
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
By the way, do you want to? 'Cause do you want the supercomputer in the cloud knowing who's coming in and out of your house?
- ACAndrew Chen
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and then just the cost associated with that is gonna be, you know, it's gonna be very expensive, um, relative to what you can do with a small model, uh, you know, in the doorknob and by extension kind of in, in everything else. And then, yeah, open source is clearly a way to kind of give people the flexibility to be able to implement AI in basically everything, and we're, yeah, we're very fired up about that. And, and we're... As one example, we're the major investors in Mistral, which is, you know, at least right now, the leading AI, AI open source company.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yep.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and we're gonna, we're gonna fight hard to help them, you know, succeed and have this model succeed.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's been, it's been so impressive to go from, I remember, you know, being at a point where we're, we were all just sending articles around-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- ACAndrew Chen
... um, and, you know, screenshots of things that we were, you know, uh, doing on ChatGPT to all of a sudden this being, you know, re- really, like, the primary focus of the firm-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- ACAndrew Chen
... and, and a ton of, ton of hiring, a ton of new efforts, everything kind of, you know, ar- around that.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, I was just, I'm just out in the car trying to... I was just before this trying to close a deal. We're, we're in a hot shoot, a shootout for a hot deal, and it's a vid- it's related to video, and it's just like, wow, the implications of this, like, the entire nature of what video is could change, right? Just, like, the entire assumption of, like, what's in a video and how it reacts to users, like, the whole thing. Like-
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, it's one of these things where you, you could imagine looking back in a decade and being like, "I can't believe people used to watch, you know, static videos at all." Like, it just doesn't make any sense. It's like watching a silent movie.
- ACAndrew Chen
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Obviously, videos should be, like, responsive in real time, you know? And, and so it's like-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... it's this kind of thing where it's like, you know-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... the entire world of anything, everything involving video might just, like, completely change. Um, so yeah.
- ACAndrew Chen
Awesome.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yep.
- ACAndrew Chen
Um, well, I'll, I'll,
- 36:28 – 43:29
Why a16z launched a games fund
- ACAndrew Chen
uh, I'll, I'll wrap up with one, one or two kind of final questions. Um, you know, one is, uh, t- talk to us about how, um, you know, when, when we began, um, you know, doing more investing in games, and actually before I even showed up at the firm, I think we had invested in, uh, in Zynga and Oculus and a couple others. I think Chris Dixon had pioneered a lot of it. But what was it that gave, gave you personally the conviction to take on games as, as, as, as, as one of the, as one of the main areas for, for a16z?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. And then there's a classic argument you'll hear in venture if you talk to VCs. There's a classic argument you'll hear as to why VCs shouldn't invest in games. It's basically an artifact, in my view, of sort of the '80s, '90s, 2000s period in which it actually was pretty dangerous to invest in games. And the, the, the, the reason for it was just, number one, games are sort of viewed as, like, hit, basically, you know, classic hit-driven business. And, you know, and then the, the game would come out, and it would kind of, if it succeeded, it would have, like, a revenue arc that looked like that, right? Um, like a movie or something. Um, and then there was just economics that flowed from that that basically said, like, the movie studios make most of the money in movies. The, the platform publishing companies, uh, like EA, make most of the money in games. And so there's real- And, and, you know, even if you start a new startup studio, and you build a new game franchise, it'll just get bought by one of the platform companies, and there's not really much upside-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, to it-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, because of the industrial logic of, of distribution and all those things. And so, um, so just it was, like, it was not considered kind of to be a viable area for, for venture investment for a long time. Um, our assessment is, is basically that the world has changed, and, and the world has changed, is changing, and we're gonna try to change it further. And I guess I'd say, so several things. So one is, you know, game as, you know, packaged software that has, that, you know, looks like a movie versus game as sort of permanent platform and, uh, you know, sort of foundation that then you end up building twenty or thirty or forty years of experiences on top of. Um, and here again, it's just not... And, and now, now this is getting more obvious because, you know, and you go right through my, Minecraft, Roblox. There's more and more examples where, like, clearly this is hap- you know, clearly this is exactly what's happening. Um, and so, you know, basically from a business standpoint, assets that can actually grow in value for, for, for decades, and they can keep adding users and keep adding content, keep adding experiences, and keep broadening out. So, so one is, and that's totally, that's totally venture, venture investable. Those, those are great businesses. Um, so that's one. Two is look, like, all these other technologies kicking in, and so the traditional game industry was, you know, was, was an artifact historically of basically, like, not being online, right?
- ACAndrew Chen
Right, right, right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, you know, and even still today, like, you know, a lot of games that you buy, like they may have multiplayer mode, but they're not really built as like full online experiences. But now you can build as, like, full online experiences, and you can take advantage. You know, you can have real economies. You can have user-generated content platforms. You can have... You can use AI. Um, you, you, you know, many, many, many, um, uh, sort of ways to make these just, like, a fundamentally more sophisticated experience. Um, and so y- there's... Sort of get the benefit of all these technology innovations. Um, and then I would say third is just the, you know, founders. And this is sort of the thing in the past, is like a lot of the great game designers of the past, you know, it's like they just, they want to, they want to, they want to build a g- They're a little bit like movie directors. They want to build a game. They want to get paid in cash. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
When they're done building this game, they want to build another game that's probably a different game. Um, and fundamentally, they kind of want to work for a studio, um, 'cause that's, that's where they get that deal.
- ACAndrew Chen
Right, right, right, right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, you know, our kind of founder is not that. Our kind of founder wants to build a product, but then wants to build a business and wants to build a company and wants to build something that's going to be enduring and expansive and have, you know, enormous vision and become, you know, very big and important in the world.
- ACAndrew Chen
That's right. That's right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and have a giant R&D agenda and a, you know, very aggressive, you know, product roadmap and, and, and so forth. And so, and, and then, and then run their own thing and then, you know, be the CEO, you know, and actually be in control of the whole thing. We've been very encouraged by the number of smart people coming out of gaming who, who want that.
- ACAndrew Chen
That's right. That's right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, 'cause, 'cause they see that in other sectors of, of software and tech, and they, they want to do that, and then we're also helping, you know, we're, we're trying to help encourage that.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah. Well, I mean, and, and that's personally been one of the most interesting things about, you know, building the SPEEDRUN program is just being able to use a marketing motion to just discover all the founders that want to work in, you know, game studios, or they're building infrastructure, or they're building AI and, and just the enormous number of them that, that, you know. Many of you know that, um, you know, last year when we, when we put this out there, it was, it was, uh, you know, nearly six thousand companies actually applied to be part of, of, of the SPEEDRUN program, and we, we anticipate this, you know, continuing to grow. And so there's just, you know, a, a fantastic amount of, um, talent.
- MAMarc Andreessen
The other thing, just the other thing that's very exciting for, for me is, you know, I, I mean, look, I think games as entertainment are fantastic, and they're very socially p- positive and productive, and I love them and it's great, um, and it's fantastic. Um, but, but also, like, you know, we, we mentioned earlier, like the, the games are always around, like, the cutting edge of applying new technology.
- ACAndrew Chen
Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
I, I also think, like, the, the skill set of what it takes to make great games, I think also more and more is just going to apply in many, many other domains. Like some... And few people have tried this, but, like, someday there's going to be a great educational experience, and it's going to look and feel like a game. Like, that just seems, like, crystal clear. Like, you know, the great health problems of our time, you know, for the most, if you just look at the numbers, the health problems of our time are not like random things that just happen to us. The great health problems of our time are the consequences of our own behavior, right?
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs] Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And so they say, they, they call it, they call it metabolic diseases, um, you know, which is like, you know, you're, you know, you're fat, you're lazy, you don't get enough sleep. Um-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right. And then there's all this downstream, you know, diabetes and cancer and everything that's down... heart attacks, that's downstream from that. Uh, and so it's like, it's very clear that, like, the, the whole world of healthcare, healthcare is not, "Oh, something's wrong, I need to go to the doctor and get it fixed." The whole-
- ACAndrew Chen
Right
- MAMarc Andreessen
... healthcare has to be transformed into, "I'm, I'm healthy my entire life because I'm making myself healthy." And that's a hard thing to do, and the system that supports you in doing that is going to feel like a game, 'cause it has to. It has to be engaging. It has to be, it has to be something that you enjoy, uh, dealing with, and so, like, there's no question, like, that's going to happen. Um, and so there's, there's all of these other areas of life and business, I think, that are going to get transformed by this kind of mentality and skill set.
- ACAndrew Chen
And, and riffing on something that, that you said before in, in the past is, uh, you know, we- we're, we're willing to spend a billion dollars building, you know, Grand Theft Auto.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- ACAndrew Chen
And we're willing to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to, you know, create, create a movie.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- 43:29 – 45:57
Shaping the Future of Gaming and Technology
- ACAndrew Chen
Yeah, I hope so. So, uh, talk about what you hope, you know, a16z and then also just, you know, honestly this broader community of founders is able to accomplish in, in, in the games industry and kind of the adjacent sectors. Like, what, what does, what does success look like for you? What, what, what are your, what's your aspiration for what happens in the industry?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, look, so I mean, look, there's a lot of ways to think about it. You know, look, like, you know, we talked a lot about technological transformation. Um, uh, we talked a lot about, uh, you know, new business models. We talked a lot about applying, you know, game methods, you know, kind of outside of gaming. Uh, you know, I think those are all great. And then again, I, I think entertainment. I, [laughs] I'm always, always like, it's always like, oh, this, you know, enter- entertainment's trivial. I mean, entertainment's not trivial. Like, we're not supposed to go through life depressed and, like-
- ACAndrew Chen
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
... just, like, being, like, drudged, like, "Oh, God, ugh." We're supposed to have fun. Like, we're suppo- like, life is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be enjoyable. We're supposed to have, like, games and movies and, and things that we like to do. You know, it's great, right? So we would just love for there to be, just to be crystal clear that, like, the primary opportunity for the best people in this field is they can build, they can build companies, and they can build companies that, you know, are able to, you know, be s- be independent. They, they're able to have, you know, very distinct visions, uh, you know, very radical ideas. They're able to build teams to execute against that. And, and then really cr- crucially, like, based on their early success, they're then able to build themselves into institutions that can really endure for a long time and then have, like, extremely expansive product roadmaps, right? I, I, you know, the example of this, like Fa- you know, Facebook, I told you the, the flip-flop story earlier. Like, you know, Facebook's now in a position where Facebook's, you know, spending, you know, on the order of twenty billion dollars a year on VR, right? Like, he's worked him... You know, Mark has worked himself into a position where he's able to do that, and the Google guys have been able to do that in other areas like self-driving cars and, and, you know, and now, and now AI. And so to, to, when, when these companies get in position where they've got, like, that kind of, you know, basically vision at the helm, um, and, you know, the, the sort of founders and founding teams at, at the best of these companies, and then they, and then they have their early win. Like, they can get in position where they can start to really do really big, ambitious things. Um, and so I, I think in, in the... My hope would be the, the companies, the companies that, that all of you are doing, the, the result of that is going to be a set of companies that are going to be really world-defining in the decades ahead.
- ACAndrew Chen
Amazing. Let's give Mark a hand. Good. Awesome. [audience clapping]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Thank you.
- ACAndrew Chen
Thank you. Good. Thank you, Mark. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 45:57
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Transcript of episode EpvhuaD5Kk0
