a16zSeeing The Future from AI Companions to Personal Software
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 10,004 words- 0:00 – 0:54
Introduction
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Right now, AI is just an app on your phone. Uh, it should not be that way. And sometimes you need to sort of go big or go home. Not having the balls to do that, especially in this current environment, you can suffer the consequences. [laughs] There's a huge mind trap that exists among builders in the space, where they somehow think that voice is the main interface. That's because they are somehow thinking about the movie Her all the time, but not in the right way.
- ETErik Torenberg
So you were a true pioneer in the space befo- before everyone else was doing it. Um, may- maybe just talk about your reflections of how that category has, has im- a- as you helped create it, and then how, how it's evolved.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It definitely evolved. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I have noticed. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It's pretty crazy. We had a very strong belief that it would happen, but we still were so surprised when it actually [laughs] happened, I guess.
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
This was just... It just still felt like complete magic. [electronic music]
- 0:54 – 2:55
From AI Companions to Personal Software
- ETErik Torenberg
So Eugenia, ex- excited to get into all, everything you're doing with Wabi, but first, let's contextualize this a little bit. When you look back at sort of the arc of, of your career, perhaps the last decade, how do you contextualize... Well, what is the through line, you know, through Replika, Wabi, et- et- et cetera?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Oh, wow. That's a, um, that's a hard question. But I guess the... Maybe the main theme, uh, is we're always early, sometimes a little bit too early, [laughs] sometimes. Hopefully this time around, you know, ear- uh, the right, the right kind of early. The right type of early. But generally, yeah, I've started, uh, working on AI in 2012, so over a decade ago, um, and was always fascinated by kind of the idea that you'll be able to talk to, um, to a machine, to have a good convers- meaningful conversation with a machine, but more importantly, with the fact that that could influence your life, um, in a really good way. And before that was really... The focus was on these AI Companions, AI friends that could really be there for you and help you live a better life, help you feel better. And now I guess it's just the same idea, but applied to personal software. Like, can we build mini-apps or software that will really help us throughout the day in a very personal way, and will be focused on you, on helping you live a better life?
- ETErik Torenberg
Tr- tr- trace the journey of how, how you got excited about this new category and, uh, what you hope it becomes.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I guess while running Replika, we always had these conversations with our users about what other products they use and how they use AI, and it always struck me as strange, uh, that they were using products like ChatGPT or Gemini, Claude, but really they were mostly using it for very simple use cases, like they were using ChatGPT to just, you know, for search or to help them write something, uh, help with homework or something else, and no one was really mentioning any of these, you know, exciting capabilities that we just kept seeing the models, you know, get. Um, and so we
- 2:55 – 3:43
“It must be an interface problem”
- EKEugenia Kuyda
felt like there must be an interface problem. Uh, when people look at a command line or a chatbot, they really just see, um, you know, search, writing tool. Maybe I can talk to this. But if you think about that's the affordance of a command line, like, not really these are the main use cases. And I think even recently, ChatGPT, OpenAI, published one of those, uh, research, whatever, one of those studies showing that these are in, in fact the main use cases for ChatGPT. I think a third of all, all of the use was around writing, um, or writing help. Um, and so that gave us an idea that there should be some next interface. There should be something else on top of this. There should be something more interactive, visual, simple for, um, everyone, me included, to actually discover these amazing use cases that all these models already
- 3:43 – 4:50
The Mac Moment for AI Interfaces
- EKEugenia Kuyda
have. And so we started thinking, we got obsessed with this metaphor that the current chatbots are really the Microsoft DOS era for AI, um, interfaces, and that there will be some sort of a Windows, macOS moment. Um, and I think the confusing part for, for most people is that there is so much traction with chatbots anyway, um, almost a billion people using these AI tools, uh, already, but they only, only use them for these kinda simpler use cases, and in order to unlock something else, you need a more exciting interface.
- ETErik Torenberg
Pa- paint more of a picture of what the world will look like when this Windows or macOS moment ha- happens. Like, what, what, what will that look like?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, I do think right now we exist, um, in the paradigm of... You know, when I was growing up, we had TV and, um, you know, here you had maybe a few dozen TV channels. Back in Russia, we only had six TV channels. [laughs] Um, and so then of course, now, uh, TV still exists, but we, now we watch YouTube and Reels and TikTok, a lot of UGC stuff. And so I think the same will happen with, um,
- 4:50 – 5:54
When Apps Become Like YouTube Videos
- EKEugenia Kuyda
software. Right now we're kinda stuck in this world where these few apps developed by professional developers, um, and then eventually, of course, we're gonna move on to this new world where apps are built by all of us for all of us, and maybe so, and maybe sometimes by AI for us. So if you think about it, the operating system of the future, you open it up and you see your u- regular popular apps you use all the time, maybe it's X, maybe it's Instagram, whatever it is, um, and then you see maybe some cool apps that you discovered, uh, your friend, your best friend's using, or maybe you built for yourself, or you tweaked one of the apps you found for yourself. And then you'll see AI suggesting some apps for you. Maybe you're going to New York next week and there's... You're into art, so it made an art show finder app for you, uh, which is gonna help you find art shows around the Airbnb you're staying at. So it's a lot more flexible, malleable, and very deeply personalized. Think of it as an operating system built on the platform of you and not on some random, um, fixed- [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... context.
- 5:54 – 7:55
Ephemeral vs Durable Software
- AAAnish Acharya
Ca- can you talk about that, like, how we've always had this idea that software has to be durable 'cause it's really expensive to make, and it seems really serious. Like, what types of ephemeral software, like the New York Art Gallery app, do you imagine existing?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, so right now we're already seeing tons of, you know, some of our first users building very specific apps that would never exist in- on the App Store. They're just too small, they're too personalized, too niche. They don't have, you know, 20,000 features. Like, someone built, um, a, um, a, a motivational quote app that's only pulling from, like, one particular show that I didn't even know anything about, but he's really obsessed with that show, and so he just wants that at 5:30 AM when he wakes up. Um, it's really... I, I feel like people are building very particular things, um, to fit their needs, like right around... For example, I was, uh, putting my kids to bed the other day, and my daughter wants to play these puzzle games when I tell her something, she's trying to guess what it is. And so she- we, we built a game very quickly where it's a puzzle and then she sees four pictures, she can click on one, but she also wanted them to be about Princess Elsa and Princess Jasmine, and so we had to incorporate that. And so now she was so happy 'cause now she's doing these puzzles, learning something new, and then we change it to Italian 'cause she goes to an Italian preschool, and so this is another way to practice, and she's so excited. We spend the whole, like... She- we couldn't put this thing away. Um, and it took me two minutes to build it, and then, you know, a few seconds to tweak it, versus going on the App Store. I don't even know if an app like that exists, and going through a 15-minute onboarding, paying, paying again, then it's not really what she wanted. Um, there's no personalization there. So I think these are the use cases where something like that, um, you know, should, sh- should happen. And I, I do think in the future I should just be able to say, "Hey, I'm, you know, putting my kids to bed," or it should know that context and just im- you know, maybe suggest a few apps that are already pre-built for me that I could use right now.
- 7:55 – 10:04
Replacing Paid Apps with Wabi Creatiosn
- AAAnish Acharya
It's funny, I just got a new iPhone and, um, on the new phone I got to, to delete a bunch of my old apps 'cause I like to start fresh. And there were, like, probably over a dozen apps that I downloaded, and in some cases paid for, that I just totally didn't need anymore because I'd built better versions of it on Wabi.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
Everything from, like, migraine tracking to, like, tracking restaurant recommendations to, like, a really hyper-personalized notes app to special things around image transformation in a particular style. And I can imagine that will be true for a lot of people, which is, like, instead of having to find this long-tail app that's running all these crazy ads- [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
... pop-ups all the time, and is hard to use and is not personalized to you, you can just make exactly what you want on the fly and, and tweak it, which is another really cool part of the product, I think.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
This is what... And I'm so glad to hear that you're using it.
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But, um, for me, that was w- the, the, kind of the product market fit with Wabi for me was around that, where I found there were a few things I really needed and wanted an app for, to track my weightlifting, very beginner [laughs] level-
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... weightlifting workouts. I just figured out you gotta go up in weight. This is-
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I didn't know. How would I know?
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I'm a woman. Anyway, so-
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... I got this app and I was tracking it in App- Apple Notes, and I try to find some apps on the App Store and they're just... There's just so much in these apps-
- AAAnish Acharya
Yes
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... that I didn't need, and so I just wanted a really simple... I'm also trying to follow one particular book. I wanted the workouts to be based on that book. So anyway, I built a simple app to track these workouts. Um, and then now anytime I go to the gym... I built it on the way to the gym, but now anytime I go to the gym, I find something else I wanna add to it. First it was just a tracker, now it's generating new workouts based on all of my inputs, where I am, mad, you know, the, the, the, the book I'm us- [laughs] I'm trying to follow, whatever the ladder technique of, like, progressive overload. And so I put it all in the prompt, and every time I go to the gym, I add a little bit to that. I want a little more of this and a little more of that. So now I'm not just using the app, I'm kind of the constantly in the process of tweaking it-
- AAAnish Acharya
Right
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... and republishing it to Wabi kind of mini app store. Hopefully someone will find it [laughs] find it useful.
- ETErik Torenberg
How,
- 10:04 – 11:37
Who Will Create? Who Will Consume?
- ETErik Torenberg
how many people do you think, or, you know, generally as you think of your audience, do you think it will be 90/10 sort of consumption creation, or do you think that most people... I think one of the things we saw with Sora, for example, is that many people, the majority of people are creating. Do you think that Wabi will be like that?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I hope that more people will at least tweak, but I'd say, like, fully kind of original creators probably still under 10%. And what we're working on right now, this week we're releasing, we're pushing sort of a big update, um, the social graph. So you'll be able to see who is downloading what mini apps, how they're using them. You're gonna be able to see, um, comments or like mini apps. And so in this case, for example, if I created that workout app, someone in comments can ask me to tweak it. They can also remix it and change it, you know, obv- change the app however they want, but maybe they just want this particular app to be slightly different. So they can put in comments and maybe, you know, as a creator, of course, I'm gonna be reading all the comments and changing the app to also, um, you know, for these people to be able to use it. So I think this is cool because it creates all of a sudden, um... It's not just about building apps for yourself, it's really about discovering apps and finding what your friends are using, using these apps together, um, and so on and so on. And even asking creators to, you know, change them in a some particular way. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
Amazing. Zooming out a bit, um, or, or segueing, uh, Anish and Justine, how do the categories or the, or the topics that we've been discussing as it relates to personal software relate to themes that we've been exploring on the investing side as, in terms of what, you know, what got, what got us excited here?
- 11:37 – 14:17
Investing in “Software as Content”
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah, I mean, look, I, I think that the YouTube metaphor is the right one that Eugenia outlined, you know, which is that w- we would've said in 2007 that 100 cable channels is enough, or, or six in your case. [laughs] And, you know, now we obviously there's this entire ecosystem, everything from unboxing videos to all of the, like, very YouTube native content that exists. Um, and I think people are sort of have more content, are more fulfilled by it, and then there's also the act of creation. Some people create for a business, but many create and post just because it's fulfilling to themselves. And software's just been so restrictive because there's only 20 million developers in the world. You know, so in a sense, all of the software that we consume is downstream of the preferences of those 20 million people.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Mm-hmm.
- AAAnish Acharya
And it seems intuitive that if more people could make software, they would.
- AAAnish Acharya
And that there would be a mass-market consumer product here. I think unlike many of the other products, and you should comment on this, that we've seen, it feels like this is not text to app.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Mm.
- AAAnish Acharya
You know, it's not a developer or developer adjacent tool. It's truly a mass-market consumer product for non-technical people.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, I agree with you, and we really made this kind of choice early on that we're never gonna show any code or anything, or say anything in the app that's even remotely technical. No API keys, no, uh, bring this whatever, connect this integration or s- anything like that. Uh, we do have integrations. You can add your apps and services, but you can just say, you know, "Use my Apple Health," or, "Use this," "Use that," um, or, "Use my email." Um, and we call them power-ups, so that's sort of the more, probably the most technical you're gonna get here. But we wanted... So yeah, we wanted to make it super simple for anyone to make apps, and to make this process very delightful, um, and almost to feel like you're just creating something really quick. You're not even really building mini-apps. Um, what we're adding right now is more... I think the, the company or the product we're looking at mos- most is Canva, and the e- ease with which they're, they're letting people create beautiful presentations. The similar, kinda similar thing needs to ch- needs to happen here. Right now we're talking about vibe coding a lot, but I feel like we should be more about vibe kinda taste or vibe designing these apps, so we're gonna give a lot more of the just visual controls, more in the vein of like choose a style, choose, you know, some colors. You, and you can go a little bit deeper, but really it's just one button and things look great versus, um, yeah, you need to go deep and just really, um, try to understand what to do and get technical with your mini-app. Um, and I do think that unlocks a certain level of creativity where all you need to think about is, like, what's the use case? Um,
- 14:17 – 16:41
Mini-Apps as Community Catalysts
- EKEugenia Kuyda
one other interesting thing that one of our, uh, investors, Soleio, mentioned was that apps, mini-apps could become kind of community starters.
- AAAnish Acharya
Mm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
So if today the App Store is very much not social, and it probably won't ever be social because of Apple's mandate for obviously privacy and how important that is for them, um, which is great, but in, at the same time, you probably do wanna know who else is into, I don't know, toddler activities in Patriot Hill. Um, I wanna know what other moms are going to an Italian preschool. Um, I want to, you know, have their kids go to that preschool. Uh, and maybe, I don't know, my designer's really into bird watching in London, um, in his particular neighborhood. So creating that app and finding some other people who, you know, could be a little bit of a community building, um, around that topic.
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah, I think there's a bunch of really interesting choices you guys made in designing the product that it feels like really built on the explosion in, like, vibe coding or building with AI, whatever you wanna call it, in a super interesting way. One of which is like, yeah, for many consumers, the existing tools are a lot more accessible than, like, coding something from scratch, but it's still pretty easy to, like, break them or get to something where you don't know what to do, whereas I think Wabi, you've purposely put guardrails around the experience to make it hard to, like, super mess up [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
... which is extr- actually extremely helpful for consumers. And then it also feels like, you know, we needed to move beyond this paradigm of, like, great, you vibe code a website and it, it exists out there, but, like, is that the best interface for you to be using a product you wanna use daily and storing personal information on and having your own records and, like, all of these sorts of things? Probably not. And for a lot of people, like, their phone is where they spend most of their time online. It's kind of their primary interface and where they wanna use things. Um, and so obviously I know there's, like, challenges designing for mobile and that sort of thing, but it, it felt like a really smart choice for you guys to start there, just to get so much more deeply ingrained in someone's daily life or daily workflow.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
You know, I've only pretty much built mobile apps [laughs] in my life.
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah. [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I really like the idea of mobile apps, and a lot of things you're not gonna be doing on, you know, really just putting in a website or whatever, some link.
- JMJustine Moore
Exactly.
- 16:41 – 19:07
The “Organization Layer” for Vibe Coding
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, and I do believe a lot in the concept of an organizational layer.
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Like, to a degree, um, the App Store is the organizational layer for, um, you know, the, the mobile.
- JMJustine Moore
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And, um, the browser, the organizational layer for internet. And so something like that should exist for vibe coding, I guess, or for this new era of software for AI.
- AAAnish Acharya
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
For, let's call it AI software. Um, and I don't believe that people will be... I do believe that we're all gonna be building some sort of software and using software that everyone builds, some UGC software, but I definitely don't believe in links that people will share with each other-
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah.
- AAAnish Acharya
Right
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... and with me relying on some random person somewhere, who's not a professional developer, to support the database for the app where I might store some sensitive data, or at least data that I don't want to disappear, [laughs] even if it's not very sensitive.
- AAAnish Acharya
Right.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Uh, and we've already seen this with some apps, vibe-coded apps, reaching the top of the App Store. I think the one around women dating-
- JMJustine Moore
Yes
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... that all the super sensitive information got leaked. And that wasn't because they are bad actors. It's just they're not professional developers. So there needs to exist some, some platform where everything will live. And to a degree, we're not watching videos somewhere, uh, UGC videos somewhere. We're watching them on Instagram, on TikTok, on YouTube. It's not like people are passing around [laughs] links. And so the current situation I do think is very similar to the very beginning of the internet, where people were creating personal pages with GeoCities and some other tools like that, which I don't remember very, very well 'cause I was very little. But, um, yeah. Before LinkedIn, people were sending these links to each other, and of course now there's LinkedIn. There are certain guardrails. You can't really do-Everything the way you could do in GeoCities, but at the same time you have the s- get the social graph, you get the platform, you get all sorts of cool things there. Guess the same as Shopify for e-commerce. Yeah, you can build your own, uh, online store, but no one's really doing it anymore. Everyone's just using Shopify, and then they also get the, all the platform benefits. And I feel like the same will happen with Wabi. Yes, you cannot download an app from Wabi and put it on the App Store, but you can use it inside Wabi, and you can get the social graph and all the integrations and the potentially the shared context between all the apps and the memory behind, you know, for, for, for that, um, user, and so on, so on, so on.
- ETErik Torenberg
Uh,
- 19:07 – 20:22
Wabi as a Framework for Memory, Context, and Expression
- ETErik Torenberg
our mutual friend Hiten said that Wabi is not just a collection of apps. It's a framework for memory, context, and expression. Every time you create or share, you're teaching it who you are. Is, is that how you see it?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I believe in it 100%. I think with every, um... I believe... I still remember, of course, and you guys obviously remember, too, but I do remember how the first iOS apps were just people trying to squeeze those websites into an app format or just kind of toy apps like iBeer or there was my favorite one, I Am Rich, that was $999.99 [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs] Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And it didn't, it didn't do anything.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, and then of course, people figure out, well, you know, there's some- something special about this being a mobile, mobile app, and maybe GPS and connectivity. And things like Uber and Tinder came out of the whole new categories of apps. And so they figured out what's so special about mobile. And I feel like for AI, the super special thing is, uh, personalization, but really deep personalization. So for me, kind of vibe coding an app, but that still is sort of like the same old software that's not really taking any of your context into consideration, where the data of that app is not exposed to AI that keeps learning, is kind of just old school.
- 20:22 – 23:11
Software 3.0: Deep Personalization through Shared Context
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I do believe a lot in Andre's, um, uh, idea of like Software 3.0, some next level of software that's super deeply personalized. So if you think in the context of a Wabi mini-app, how can you personalize it? First of all, you can personalize the features, the looks, um, you know, or skin the app in a c- a certain way. But then on top of that, you can also change the prompt. So for example, for my workout app, um, I added to the prompt a couple things. First of all, the book that I'm reading, that, that method that I want to work out using that method. Also, the fact that I go to S.F. Fitness and it has a certain... I added a photo of that gym, so kind of the model is not generating workouts in a completely different size of the gym. Uh, if it's super side, it has to be next to each other. Uh, so this is the deep, deep, deep level of personalization that, that it's following. And of course, on the Wabi platform layer, layer level, the a- the mini app also knows that I'm a certain age, that I live in San Francisco, that I have kids, these are my fitness goals, and so on and so on. And then eventually when I s- when I build another mini app, maybe around nutrition, those apps should be able to talk and pass along that context. And today, of course, all of that exists in just the, you know, the walled gardens. You're fully locked in in one app, which is to me sound- feels absolutely crazy. Um, and it can't connect... If I connected my email or my calendar, it can't be connected to both of these apps. I have to go through the process with every developer all the time. They have to build it. I have to connect it. That seems crazy, too. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
Do you imagine people building true social apps where the in-app experience involves a community?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I'd love that. And we're, we're building multiplayer right now as we speak. We spent the whole day to- trying to figure out, like, what... [laughs] It's really complex just because all apps can be, can have very different type of mul- multiplayer.
- AAAnish Acharya
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And that needs to be explained to users as well in a very intuitive way. But yeah, totally believe in, first of all, using apps together, at least with your friends, your family, but also potentially building these more kind of community apps where everyone can join. Maybe I can make my app multiplayer and open for everyone to join.
- AAAnish Acharya
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
A good example of that is, um, made some image gen app around dogs, uh, where you can turn a- any of your dogs into like a royal, um... Some user built it. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
To like a royal portrait of different era. And so that would be cool for all the dog owners to just join that app and to be able to post to the universal feed. Um, and so that's something we've been talking about today, 'cause this would be really cool. Instead of you just making these photos and then sharing somewhere, you're just adding them to the ongoing feed of dog photos. [laughs] Sorry if that's weird.
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah, there's a... I mean, no, no, I think it's a great example.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I need a new resignation for that. [laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
I, uh... Well, yeah, I'm definitely gonna use that on my-
- AAAnish Acharya
I mean, you're talking to the-
- JMJustine Moore
On my dog.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs] Sure.
- JMJustine Moore
But
- 23:11 – 28:11
Prompt Sharing as an Emergent User Behavior
- JMJustine Moore
yeah, I feel like there are so many examples, too, of, um, image and video prompt sharing that happens in very unoptimized ways today. Like, I've been following a lot, um, as you know very well, like, teen girls and college-aged girls are often early adopters of stuff. And they have been making all of these, like, Nano Banana and Quen I- Image Edit prompts of, like, them, like, lying on a couch and the Ghostface Killer is behind them for, like, Halloween. And the... And they'll, like, post the image on TikTok or Reels or wherever, and it will blow up. And then they'll be, like, commenting, like, this long-form prompt, like, in the comments on TikTok, which makes no sense as a way to do it. And then everyone's asking, like, "Where do I go to do this? Like, I have the Google app. Why isn't let- letting me do this?" And you have to explain, like, "No, you need the Gemini app." And it just feels like there's already this consumer demand and consumer behavior around, like, prompt sharing in particular for creative stuff that could be done... I've already made a bunch of Wabi mini apps for this, and it, it could be done so much better. And I think the, the creative community would really thrive with this.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Oh, that was the most... And I guess this is why we started the company. Um, g- how is it possible that we have this godlike technology, yet we pass around these text prompts, which is almost like Microsoft DOS commands, but worse, 'cause at least the commands were, was like, sort of like you could learn them. [laughs] There were a few, whatever, like, they were short, they weren't that long. And now are the, these crazy unstructured paragraphs of text. Sometimes you also need a reference image or something else. To me, that's a little bit-... crazy. Um, and I think that is kind of one of the biggest problems with discovery. With AI, it's hard to find these prompts, even if you saw the output of, you know, you saw this cool photo with the ghost, whatever, but then how do I recreate that? I need to find the prompt, I need to know what app, I need, um, I need to know what model to choose. Oftentimes, it's not even very intuitive, and at that point, I've just lo- lost all my motivation to do that. Instead of that, if you could just quickly, you know, click on the link in comments on TikTok and open a mini-app where everything's already set up for you, just add a photo. Um, and you can see examples, you can s- choose different styles and this and that, and then you can see in comments what, what other people are doing. I think this is the way to go, and I think what's most interesting, that it sort of combines the vibe coding apps, one of the biggest kind of trends of the last year at least, and also just using AI. Uh, before that, it was all... You know, it's either the, are you in the text-to-prompt-to-app market, or are you in some other market? And this kind of puts together, like, this is really the one place to use, um, amazing prompts or, and it kind of blends this difference.
- AAAnish Acharya
H- how much, you know, it's interesting you mention, Justine, that it's a mass market consumer behavior, or, or maybe, like, a future one-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah
- AAAnish Acharya
... to be sharing prompts this way. How much do you think for the average person whose only AI experience has been with ChatGPT that this is going to be a surprising new behavior that they have to sort of adjust to, or something that feels very intuitive and obvious, and like, "Wow, I've been waiting for this"?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I hope it will be easy, because in the end of the day, it's just a, a mini-app. It's just the app graphic user interface. So it's something that we're all used to. You don't need to u- learn how to use these new tools.
- AAAnish Acharya
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I'd argue it's harder to use a command line, because you need to know, well, do I copy-paste the text here? Do I add an image right here with this prompt, or do I add it later? It becomes a little bit more... It's too loose. There's, there are no guidelines, but everyone knows how to use apps. And, um, to a degree, a lot of these kind of thin wrappers, uh, blew up at some point, like Prisma was one of them, or Lensa, where it was just, like, you know, change you- change your photo ins- into some avatar.
- AAAnish Acharya
Mm-hmm.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, some headshot apps. I do-
- AAAnish Acharya
High school yearbook?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
High school yearbook. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs] That's clutch.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But a lot of... You know, they're awesome, but again, like, there's a reason why apps, uh, like that gain traction, uh, and not, you know, people just passing along this, this prompt. 'Cause-
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... again, it's too high... Whenever there's, um... The motivation's not too high, this amount of friction just kills all of my mojo. Uh, I wake up in the morning, I'm on Twitter or Reddit, I find all these cool prompts. I'm like, "Oh, I gotta try it," and then I'm like, "Oh, copy, paste."
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
"Oh, it didn't really work," or whatever. I forgot about it. So that, I think, is something that at least we're super excited about. And it's not about just image gen prompts, but also, um, some cool text prompts. Like, people come up with all sorts of cool stuff. There's, there are millions of people in the s- in subreddits like ChatGPT Prompt Genius.
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Which I love those [laughs] sometimes.
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
You can find some crazy stuff in it. But you would never even know that this could be a cool way to use, uh, ChatGPT unless you found it there. Like, for example, someone made a fantastic prompt to analyze your blood work. Um, but again, I don't even at this point remember what it was and how I'm gonna find it.
- AAAnish Acharya
Right.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, versus I could just download a mini-app from Wabi and kind of keep it in my health folder.
- 28:11 – 30:21
100x’ing the World’s Meaningful Software
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
On the investment team, you, we, we've said that there's, you know, the world has 1% of the software that, that it needs, and that the rest is gonna be built in the next five years. So let, let's give an example or say more about what that looks like if we're, you know, 100x’ing the amount of, you know, meaningful or impactful software.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Well, I don't know. I g- I guess I'm always going back to, um, how magical, uh, YouTube felt in the very beginning, and all of these platforms, where it was all really about just creativity and very raw, um, you know, sometimes weird things like putting a home tape, whatever, home video on, um, o- online. For TikTok, I still remember all my, you know, young, whatever, friends, younger kids lip syncing to different music, and how weird it was, and it felt like a toy, and then all of a sudden became really, really huge. And I think the same will happen with, um, or at least we hope that the similar, a similar trend will happen to Wabi, where in the beginning, maybe a lot of that will look like toys or something very simple, very kind of funny almost, and, um, innocent. [laughs] And then eventually can grow into a much larger platform. But I guess if you think about it, like, today we just treat apps as software, but what if apps, we could treat them as content? If I'm a health influencer or fitness influencer on TikTok, maybe I should put out, "Here's my, here are my five mini apps on Wabi I built that are kind of showcasing my fitness protocol. Um, get them." And maybe there's a way to monetize it in some way. Maybe it's a way for, for that fitness creator to create more content that's now useful. Um, right now people sell courses or s- and stuff instead of that. I think a mini app could be much better, and then people can be talking about that in the community in the comments section. Again, this is a start of some community. People are working out together. People are doing something together. Um, I do think we'll see just a completely different type of software, not just apps, not just stale, fixed apps, but more content, community build, uh, community starters, conversation starters, and, and just fun little
- 30:21 – 33:55
The Creator Economy on Wabi
- EKEugenia Kuyda
toys. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
Do, do you imagine a, like, a creator class, a kind of professional class on Wabi?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Oh, 100. You know, yes, of course. I do believe that the... ideally this should happen. If, if we-
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... really think about it as YouTube, that's sort of the last frontier. At this point, creators can make their own professional content. They can make videos. They can make shows. They can write, but they still cannot create software. It's still really-Not happening. But any- anyone, and especially small niche creators, should be able to afford to create for free any software for the, their fans. And that's what I'm really, really looking forward to.
- ETErik Torenberg
I- I've been struck that by the idea that, uh, you know, MrBeast, the biggest creator in the world, uh, he has such a close connection with his fans. They'd do anything for him, and the, and the thing that he makes is chocolate. Like, that's the thing, the, the thing that he chooses to-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
... to do that seems like the best monetization, and it just feels like this is yet another sort of, uh, you know, type of, uh, offering that creators can provide to be, you know, have a closer relationship with their fans.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Exactly. And if you think about it, just even the style, like I would love, like certain designers, I want their apps-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... that they build.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
'Cause I'm sure they're gonna build very beautiful apps, and I wanna look at them and u- even if it's the same functionality, the same whatever Pomodoro timer, but I want their take on it, um, and so on. I think this, there's so many different groups and niches that... And it, it shouldn't all just be about monetizing. It's really just about different styles, different, um, outlook on life, [laughs] on the world.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, and that is, to me, is very, very interesting. I'm a huge user of Reddit, and I find it very exciting because people just join around certain interests, um, and that doesn't happen a lot, happen on other platforms really that much. Um, so that's something that I'm excited about here as well.
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah. I think from the creator perspective, one of the weird things about pu- and we're all kind of content creators in various ways and put out content, and one of the weird things about that, I think, is you often... You don't really know... Like, you see how many impressions it, it gets, but you don't know if those are bots. You don't know how many people are actually, like, using the prompt you posted or watching the full video or, or whatever. And I think that is gonna be, like even beyond monetization, that part of Wabi where, like, you can see what someone else has done or created or accomplished or whatever with the prompt you wrote or the app you made or the thing that you developed, um, will be incredibly cool, not only for existing creators w- for who it's really obvious they'll wanna do this, but also for people who are not creators today but who have really interesting ideas and just, like, no way to build their own w- mobile app, get it approved in the App Store, ship it, like distribute it, that, that whole type of thing.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah, like what other new class of creators could be-
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
That's why in our style, or like in, in, in some of our communications, we're also trying to, um... I guess we're a little bit nostalgic about the early, those early days of the internet and just being weird and staying weird. Right now, a lot of the video platforms are very polished and very commercial. Um, you don't even see your friends anymore. You don't see that much weird content. You just see very curated, polished, um, stuff. But with mini apps, with software, I guess we're just entering this new era of just tons of really weird and fascinating, um, new mini apps that wouldn't even, could never exist, uh, because they wouldn't be enough of a business on the App Store.
- ETErik Torenberg
Right. Right. Well, speaking of the early days, should we talk a bit about Replika-
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yes
- ETErik Torenberg
... and kind of your history in the community? Yeah. Maybe, um,
- 33:55 – 39:25
How AI Evolved Since 2012
- ETErik Torenberg
we'll just... So you were true pioneer in the space be- before everyone else was doing it. You, you know, you mentioned tw- 2012. Um, may- maybe just talk about your reflections of how that category has, has im- as, as you helped create it and then how, how it's evolved.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, it definitely evolved. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I have noticed, right? It's really crazy. What, what's wild, because I, we were thinking about a, a... recently just talking to, um, one of the early employees of Replika, that we had a very strong belief that it would happen, but we still were so surprised when it actually [laughs] happened, I guess.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
This was just... It just still felt like complete magic. Um, for me, I got into it 'cause I, uh, my friend worked at, um, Google DeepMind in 2012, and so he came to me to tell me about Word2vec and kind of the first technology to translate words into vectors and to be able to actually do something with words. Before that, language was just this whole separate almost, like, thing that computers could not interact with, but now all of a sudden they could. Um, and to me, I grew up reading Wittgenstein, so for me it was like, well, the limits of the, uh, language are the limits of my world, so I felt like, oh, wow, that's insane. If the computers learn language, then they'll learn about the world. That will be... They'll be truly smart. That is the future of artificial intelligence. And so that's... Also ImageNet just came out, so we saw all these new models around image recognition, and we felt like, well, we gotta start a company focused on language models, focused on dialogue generation. Uh, but of course, there were no papers around it at all and no, no known algorithms or anything built, models. Um, really back then there was nothing. So we just focused on building some technology to build chatbots using whatever the... trying to build some language models around that. And then, of course, 2015, the first paper came out of Google by Quoc Le that w- actually showed off the first deep learning, um, model applied to dialogue generation. And they didn't publish any models back then, so it was all about just kind of reading the paper and seeing some of the obviously cherry-picked results and trying to replicate that. And when we saw that in August 2015, we just basically put all of our, um... bet everything we had at the company on building those models. We said, "Okay, well, this is it. This is right around the corner." [laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
We need to really focus on building these language models, getting the-
- ETErik Torenberg
Mm-hmm
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... first generative AI product out, chatbot out there, which we did with Replika, but it wasn't around the corner. [laughs] It was like seven years away.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And then we just had to survive for long enough to actually get to the first transformer models. Um, and then of course I think the next magical moment was the, um, Mina paper also out of Google with the first transformer model-And then I remember in 2020, we got invited by OpenAI to go see, um, GPT-3 before, you know, API, to, to partner up with them to be one of the first partners, [inhales] uh, for GPT-3 API to launch. So we came to the office, and Mira, who back then was actually leading partnerships, um, and Sam showed us GPT-3, and I remember that was just... W- I was floored. It was insane. Just to f- before that, if you think about it, we had to train every model. We had to create the specific dataset. If you wanted to train a dialogue model, you have to have tons of chat data, and you would train the model, and the model could only do dialogue. But with GPT-3, it was the first kind of zero-shot, few-shot model where it could do anything. It didn't just have to, um, respond in a dialogue format. You can tell it, "Well, write a tweet like Sam Altman," or, "Write a tweet this," or translate, and it would do that. [inhales] And so that one felt absolutely magical, and we were the first... uh, one of the first partners of OpenAI GPT-3 API. Um, they- it was still crazy 'cause we still have a Slack channel where Greg Brockman is training a model for us, [laughs] which now feels just such a-
- AAAnish Acharya
Amazing. [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... weird reversal-
- AAAnish Acharya
You still have the model? [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... of the role. [laughs] Um, it, it, it was interesting. I think it was a, a fine-tuned DaVinci for, um, Replica, but we were the biggest customer in terms of API calls 'cause we-
- AAAnish Acharya
Wow
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... we were the only chatbot available on the market that actually used generative AI. And now it's weird to think about it, but, uh, back then, all the big companies were scared to put out generative AI, uh, products because they were... Microsoft Tay happened.
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And it turned into some Nazi chatbot in literally an hou- an hour, and so everyone else was too scared to put them out there. So we were sort of the only ones for so, so long until OpenAI had, um, you know, put out their ChatGPT and kinda changed, changed history with that, of course. Uh, but it was crazy because for before that, [laughs] we literally owned all the keywords like AI, chatbot, artificial intelligence on every single platform. And, um, and then we also owned, like, hundreds of .ai domains, which I just let expire 'cause I felt like [sighs] -
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... I mean, no one wants them.
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
They're not gonna be on any of the dome-
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... domain platforms.
- AAAnish Acharya
Wow.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And then recently I went to see what .ai, uh, domains ex- still, are still available that are just regular words, and the only words that are available are like vomit.ai and [laughs] iraq.ai. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- 39:25 – 42:01
Working From the OpenAI Office
- EKEugenia Kuyda
my perspective.
- AAAnish Acharya
You know, y- you told us a story at dinner about the time that you'd spent in the OpenAI office. Maybe talk a little bit about that when you guys were working out of there, what it was like, what the energy was like. What were the expectations of the team?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I think the... Yeah, so when, um, when OpenAI started, it was kind of out of YC. Um, it was YC Research. So they were doing a few... I guess you remember, they were doing a few different research groups, one on, uh, UBI, one on AI, some other ones. And so because we were a Y- YC company and, um, they let us come, they were very, uh, uh, generous with their time, and they would let us come to, back then, Greg's apartment, where they were, uh, headquartered [laughs] I would say. And they would let us come with a couple other companies, uh, that were doing AI at YC to, um, ask questions, learn from them, and just talk, maybe exchange experience on what we're building. So we would come to that apartment and ask all the questions. Um, usually it was, um, Ilya and Andre and some other people, and that was absolutely incredible. We were, of course, absolutely starstruck, um, and super happy to be there, just so, you know, grateful for the opportunity. And then they moved to the, um, m- to their office, and we would co- go there as well, and, um, very quickly they stopped working on language models. And we were very upset because we really wanted to continue going there, but they didn't wanna talk about any language models 'cause no one was really working on them. Um, and that ma- made us feel very, um, strange because we were so set on continuing and believing in language models, but they completely moved away to, shifted to playing video games and all of these kind of agents, kind of rebuilding the worlds and agents in those worlds, reinforcement learning for that, and all, and, and all these other in- interesting things. Um, and I guess the only person for, um, if... In the beginning it was kind of Alec Radford continued to work on language models, so we had an opportunity to ask him some questions. But yeah, of course that was... It's just wild to think, [laughs] to think that because w- when we were going to OpenAI, of course th- they were, uh, superstars even back then, but still it felt like such a small, uh, kinda research group, um, that is trying to do something interesting. Of course, now to see it become one of the biggest companies in the world is s- absolutely wild. [laughs]
- AAAnish Acharya
Well, it's interesting because Andre said on the recent pod that the entire video games direction was an incorrect direction. It was incorrect research direction, and they probably should've stuck with language.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Yeah, it's-
- AAAnish Acharya
So you guys were right
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... um, it's a, it... Well, being right [laughs] is not always better.
- AAAnish Acharya
[laughs]
- 42:01 – 43:31
“You gotta be right, but also execute”
- EKEugenia Kuyda
You gotta be right, but also execute. I think to a degree we, we were really invested with Replica in building language models, but at some point we just required a lot more capital to do that. And after being... After working on that for so long, at that point we just got really into just revenue maxim- maximization [laughs] at some point because we a little bit got maybe scared.
- AAAnish Acharya
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
We were like, well, uh, we didn't have the balls to say, "Okay, well, we'll need 20 million, and we'll build that model," even although that was our discussion internally right after Mina mo- uh, paper and so on. It's we just need to get a lot more money. If you think about it with, um, Replica, we only raised $11 million, and I guess it's still all in the bank, and, you know, we, we went for many, many years and, um, built a big business. But of course, this is in hindsight a very interesting lesson that sometimes being very nimble and veryKinda scrappy and very profit-oriented [laughs] is great, but you can miss out on almost, like, a generational chance. And I'm not saying we, you know, even if we bet on it, maybe [laughs] we would've not built it. Um, I would never compare myself to the geniuses that actually did it. We're probably we're not the right people anyway. But still, the le- the lessons, I think, still stand. Sometimes you need to sorta go big or go home.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And not having the balls to do that, especially in this current environment, I think you can suffer the consequences.
- 43:31 – 46:26
Predicting Consumer Behavior
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
One of the things we say on the consumer team is, "Consumer behavior, especially new behavior, cannot be predicted. It can only be observed." I think you are actually one of the few people that is not true for because you seem to be able to predict consumer behavior.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
[laughs] Like, you've been so early to a number of these things, and I think just every time we talk to you, you seem to have an eye on not only, like, what's going on today but, like, what the next thing should be. Is that... Like, how did you develop that sense, I guess? I'm sure a lot of people would be curious to know. [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
I don't know if I have that sense. I only have, like, a couple ideas, but I really believe in them deeply, and then I go really deep down the rabbit hole. I start thinking about it, and, um... But I do think that I do have a lot of, um... I do have a background in journalism, and I re-
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... pretty much the whole... I grew up dreaming of being a journalist. I- my first job was 12 years old, working in a newspaper. Um, I was an investigative journal- reporter for a while. And the one thing I loved about is being able to go and talk to people and to really, really try to get to know them and live their lives. Um, and so for that, you sorta have to have a lot of empathy and just trying to real- and curiosity about people. And I think today what I'm seeing with AI especially, it's being built by a very s- specific type of person, uh, personality. It's oftentimes these savants, these, like, brilliant geniuses, um, physicists, mathematicians, and they're insane in building algorithms and math and kind of, uh, scientific breakthroughs, but they usually lack on the [laughs] human empathy side. That's just kinda how it is. Meanwhile, I'm the opposite. I'm a, a dum-dum when it comes to-
- JMJustine Moore
No. [laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... science. Coming from a family of physicists, they were always like, "Oh my God," like, "why can't you be smart and also go study physics?"
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
But I couldn't. But at the same time, I'm just really interested in human condition and what people are doing.
- ETErik Torenberg
Mm-hmm.
- JMJustine Moore
Yeah.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And just seeing my mom trying to understand how to copy-paste a prompt from Reddit, it was such a foreign idea for her, to her, and I realized, like, my mom is very savvy with computers. She's always on her phone. She's always on her laptop, but somehow she can't crack that. This is just too... This is just not user-friendly enough. And kind of understanding those concepts and, um, I think was really what let us see, kind of come up with the idea for Wabi. And the same goes for Replika, just traveling around, um, uh, and talking to people and seeing how much loneliness there is and how much people just wanna be able to tell someone what they're going through and how few people are able to listen. And I think that realization that maybe an AI is not... can't talk well today, but it could listen, uh, that that could be a groundbreaking [laughs] thing for millions in the world. Um, so I think this is kind of what just allows me to have a slightly different angle at the same problem. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
If
- 46:26 – 50:17
Future AI Hardware: The Trap of Voice-First
- ETErik Torenberg
you wanted to speculate on the future of, like, hardware, um, like what is sort of the, that-
- JMJustine Moore
Hardware. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
Exactly.
- EKEugenia Kuyda
[laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
Or just, like, the, like, you know, five, 10 years, what is gonna be the interaction mo- Like, how are we going to be interacting with these applications?
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, I do have a few ideas around hardware, and I'm not a hardware person at all, but I'm a hardware user like all of us, [laughs] so I get to have opinions I think. I think we're... there's a huge mind trap that exists among, uh, builders in the space where they somehow think that voice is the main interface. It's, like, the best ultimate interface. And I think that's because they are somehow thinking about the movie Her all the time, but not in the right way and kinda missing the whole point of the movie Her, that, um, yes, voice was amazing in that movie because it was Samantha Johansson constantly heavy breathing in his ear.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
And that totally worked. You didn't even need to see anyone.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
Um, but [laughs] in my case, that's why that works. But if you really think about voice interfaces, they're just so imperfect. Um, you can't use that device if you're laying in bed with someone w- who's sleeping. You can't use it in a crowded space. You can't use it at a, at the office. You can't use it... Even walking around, it's a little bit weird. A- and so all of a sudden you're betting everything. There's a lot of people trying to build voice-only devices. In my case, completely wrong. Like, it can be a fantastic extra way to interact with, uh, the computer, but every single Alexa right now is, or, like, 75% of them are being shipped with a screen. Uh, 'cause even if I'm setting a timer when I'm cooking, the proverbial, um, voice use case-
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... uh, even then, sorry, I need to see the timer. I'm not gonna be asking, "Hey, how much, how long is this left?" every s- every second. Uh, this is just strange. And so I think this is kind of the, the biggest mista- mistake in my ca- in my view is trying to ship these screenless devices. Uh, I love screens. I think s- there's no way with voice to solve for discovery, for productivity. I would hate if... You know, the worst thing with, um, voice and the iPhone is tr- is reading out push not- notifications, text messages that are come- I'm like, " [gasps] Oh my God, please shut up."
- ETErik Torenberg
Right. [laughs]
- JMJustine Moore
[laughs]
- EKEugenia Kuyda
It's horrible. It's very hard also to turn it off. Um-
- ETErik Torenberg
I know. Yeah, that's terrible
- EKEugenia Kuyda
... if this was just being... You want productivity, but you don't want it to be read out loud in your ear because this is just this very, uh, slow way of getting information in your brain. Um, so anyways, I think this is kinda the biggest mistake. I would not ever make a screenless device. In fact, I would make it very much a screen-first device. But I do believe that the AI device is not about a voice-driven thing. It's more about, um, building this, uh, AI-first operating system, um, having all the models run locally as well. I think that there's a lot in that, like, bu- building truly an AI-first smartphone and, you know, not today kinda more CPU-driven whatever, um, hardware, but more the hardware of the future where there are models that can run locally where the operating system is super different from what it is today with no fixed apps, with, uh, being able to change and create software on the go for you with a l- with a level of personalization that goes a lot deeper than what it is today. Um, yeah, I think that there is definitely space for a device like that. Right now, you know, AI is just an app on your phone. Uh, it should not be that way, um, I guess. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
And it's a great note to end on. Eugenia, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. [outro music]
Episode duration: 50:25
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