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Aakash GuptaAakash Gupta

What this $2.45B CPO knows that you Don’t!

Jeremy Epling has led product at every level - Microsoft, GitHub, and now as Chief Product Officer at Vanta. In this episode, he unpacks what most PMs get wrong about strategy, what he learned from Satya Nadella, and how AI is reshaping product development. We cover: Preview – 00:00:00 Working at Internet Explorer – 00:02:05 Why He Encourages AI Prototyping Tools – 00:06:15 Ad (Linear) – 00:09:56 Ad (Amplitude) – 00:10:48 AI Prototyping Tools Impact Continued... – 00:11:23 How a Microsoft Feature Gets Built – 00:15:47 Changes in PM Role Inside Microsoft – 00:17:57 Lessons Learned From Satya – 00:20:59 Steps to Move Up the Career Ladder – 00:25:11 Ad (Maven) – 00:30:45 Communication as a Step in the Career Ladder – 00:31:33 Moving Beyond the Product – "The Final Step" – 00:34:11 GitHub for PMs – 00:37:33 Experience as a VP – 00:42:33 Evolving Expectations of Director-Level Roles – 00:48:51 Getting Job in Vanta – 00:51:59 Secret Behind Vanta's Success – 00:58:01 Growth in PLG vs. Enterprise – 01:01:36 Unique Things About Building a Product – 01:03:57 Embracing All AI Software – 01:07:16 Evaluation of PMs at Vanta – 01:11:12 Advice to PMs With No Experience – 01:13:56 Podcast transcript: https://www.news.aakashg.com/p/jeremy-epling-podcast 💼 Check out our sponsors: Linear: Plan and build products like the best - https://linear.app/partners/aakash Amplitude: Try their 2-min assessment of your company’s digital maturity - https://bit.ly/4hl25RG Maven: I’ve launched my own curation of their courses - http://maven.com/x/aakash 👀 Where to Find Jeremy LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-epling-j40 Vanta (Get $1,000 off with our link): https://www.vanta.com/lp/demo-1k?utm_campaign=1k_offer&utm_source=product-growth&utm_medium=podcast 👨‍💻 Where to find Aakash: Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/aakashg0 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aagupta/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aakashg0/ 🔑 Key Takeaways 1. Big companies teach you how to scale. Great ones teach you how to focus. At Microsoft, Jeremy learned how to operate at massive scale - teams, systems, legacy complexity. But it wasn’t until GitHub that he saw what it meant to focus on developers, ruthlessly prioritize, and ship with empathy. 2. “Strategy” isn’t about having a roadmap, it’s about knowing what not to build.He learned early on that the best PMs aren’t the ones who ship the most features. They’re the ones who create clarity, say no often, and focus the team on why they’re building something, not just what. 3. Prototyping is the new PM’s superpower. At Vanta, every PM gets access to V0. Why? Because the fastest way to learn is to build. His philosophy: “If I can show it, I can test it. If I can test it, I can learn.” 4. The lines between PM, design, and engineering are gone. At high-functioning companies, designers submit pull requests, engineers make design calls, and PMs prototype. Roles are fluid, and the best teams adapt to each other instead of clinging to old job descriptions. 5. Most PMs don’t understand GitHub but they should. You don’t have to be technical to learn GitHub. You just have to be curious. The best PMs at GitHub - even the non-coders - understood the dev workflow, knew what a PR felt like, and respected the architecture. That empathy changed how they built product. 6. Want to grow into VP-level roles? Improve your business acumen. Shipping features won’t get you there. Understanding margin, pricing, GTM, and how your product makes money will. He didn’t start out as a “business” PM, but he made a point to learn the mechanics of how things grow and that’s what unlocked leadership roles. 7. If you’re doing the same job after 4 years, you’re probably not growing. He kept switching teams every few years at Microsoft not because he was bored, but because growth requires friction. Every new domain forced him to relearn how to build, lead, and communicate. 8. Satya Nadella didn’t just save Microsoft, he redefined what it meant to build product there. Under Ballmer, the strategy was “build everything.” Under Satya, it became “build what matters.” He saw firsthand how Satya’s obsession with clarity and developer-first thinking rewired the org. That’s what made it the best place for PMs to work back days. 9. Letting go is the lost art for PMs! One of the fastest ways to grow as a PM? Kill projects that don’t matter even if they were your idea. According to him, the PMs who get promoted are the ones who know when to let go and when to keep building on the idea. #strategy #microsoft #ai 🧠 About Product Growth: The world's largest podcast focused solely on product + growth, with over 170K listeners. Hosted by Aakash Gupta, who spent 16 years in PM, rising to VP of product, this 2x/ week show covers product and growth topics in depth. 🔔 Subscribe and like the video to support our content! And turn on the bell for notifications.

Jeremy EplingguestAakash Guptahost
May 26, 20251h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

CHAPTERS

  1. From Microsoft to Vanta: why “comfort” can stall your growth

    Jeremy opens with a key career regret: staying at Microsoft too long despite switching teams internally. He frames comfort as a warning sign—useful for stability, but dangerous for learning velocity and long-term trajectory.

  2. Early Microsoft PM reality: waterfall specs, small scopes, and distance from customers

    Jeremy contrasts pre-modern PM at Microsoft with today’s practices: long spec templates, inward-facing decision-making, and PMs wearing many hats with limited customer contact. He explains how Vanta intentionally designs broader PM scopes and a thinner PM team.

  3. PM:Eng ratio and AI prototyping tools reshaping EPD collaboration

    They discuss the trend toward PMs supporting more engineers and how AI prototyping accelerates the feedback loop. Jeremy shares how Vanta equips PMs with tools like v0 and expects more overlap across product, design, and engineering.

  4. Guardrails and handoffs: how to prevent AI tooling from creating chaos

    Jeremy explains how he avoids a one-size-fits-all operating model and instead lets teams vary based on strengths. He emphasizes design accountability for shipped craft, tighter design-engineering implementation loops, and a future pipeline from prototyping tools into production code.

  5. Outlook at billion-user scale: remote collaboration, protocols, and privacy tradeoffs

    Jeremy describes day-to-day PM work on Outlook/outlook.com—distributed across Redmond and Silicon Valley—plus deep technical and policy debates. They cover threading, spam filtering, storage constraints, ads, and the privacy implications of targeting.

  6. How big-company features got built: PRDs, architecture, and global readiness

    They break down how a feature like threading would be conceived and shipped inside Microsoft. Jeremy highlights heavy documentation, technical PM involvement, and the overhead of internationalization/accessibility requirements.

  7. How PM evolved over 16 years at Microsoft—and Satya’s strategic reset

    Jeremy summarizes broad shifts: larger PM scope, stronger design voice, greater business/customer connection (especially enterprise). He also contrasts Ballmer-era revenue focus with Satya’s clarity, prioritization, and successful acquisition strategy.

  8. Climbing the ladder: saying no, cutting your own scope, and switching domains

    Jeremy shares the behaviors that drove promotions: creating focus, questioning whether work still matters, and being willing to cut even “your” projects. He also advocates changing teams every few years to keep learning and avoid identity lock-in.

  9. Director/VP inflection: end-to-end business ownership and audience-aware communication

    They discuss what separates senior PM leadership: owning go-to-market, pricing/packaging, onboarding, and implementation—not just features. Jeremy also stresses adapting communication to the audience, from CEOs to sales to engineering.

  10. GitHub lessons for PMs: learn to code, understand workflow, translate engineering “why”

    Jeremy argues that PMs benefit from understanding developer workflows and fundamentals even as AI coding tools improve. He explains how PMs can strengthen trust with engineering by asking “why,” translating technical work into customer outcomes, and emphasizing quality—especially for AI products.

  11. What VP Product is really like: always-on accountability, sales enablement, and staying close to the product

    Jeremy describes VP realities: incidents, executive visibility, heavy customer interaction, and close partnership with solution engineering/sales. He warns against becoming a pure “translation layer” and advocates carving out time to do real IC work to stay connected to product quality and craft.

  12. Landing the CPO role at Vanta: timing, founder fit, and a ‘no surprises’ recruiting process

    Jeremy explains his search criteria (growth-stage, scaling phase, not seed) and how Vanta re-engaged him after an initial pass. He highlights the importance of founder chemistry, cultural alignment, and Christina’s transparency—IC conversations, spec reviews, and GTM exposure before joining.

  13. Vanta’s growth engines and product differentiation: automating trust management end-to-end

    Jeremy details Vanta’s evolution from SOC 2 automation for startups to a broader trust management platform for enterprises. He emphasizes building a security feedback loop (what buyers ask for), expanding product lines (VRM, trust centers, questionnaires), and competing via superior UX in a category known for poor experiences.

  14. AI tool adoption at Vanta: strict data guardrails, enablement, and zero tolerance for hype

    Jeremy describes how Vanta encourages experimentation while enforcing one key security boundary: don’t put customer data into tools that may train on it. He also shares an important adoption lesson—tools don’t spread by mandate; leaders must enable use (templates, Loom demos) and validate real value beyond flashy demos.

  15. How Jeremy evaluates and coaches PMs: the “3 Bs,” ambiguity, and customer pain mapping

    He shares a practical evaluation lens (vision, execution force, relationship-building) and how expectations change with seniority: larger ambiguous problems, then self-directed problem-finding. For new PMs, his advice centers on deep customer understanding, ROI framing, and learning from sales calls.

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