5 Cleaning Rules That DESTROY ADHD Brains (and 10 that actually help you declutter)

1. 0:00 – 6:38

   Trailer

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      If you're ADHD, your executive function level's about a 30% deficit age-wise from a neurotypical brain. A 20-year-old, their executive function skills might be 30 to 40% their age younger. So you're actually dealing with like a kind of 12-year-old, which is why you might have teenagers and you're thinking, "Why is this not working?" You don't grow out of your executive function difficulties, I think you just find ways to manage it. Hester Grainger is the ultimate ADHD coach. And viral sensation spreading her ADHD message to millions online.

   2. APAlex Partridge0:30

      As an ADHD advocate and renowned public speaker-

   3. SPSpeaker0:32

      She is an expert in all things ADHD Our ADHD brains don't have enough dopamine. Cleaning and sorting and life admin is really, really boring, so we can think of 100 things as much more fun. The idea of little and often or doing a little bit every day is wonderful in principle, but I do think that there are better ways.

   4. APAlex Partridge0:50

      Can that trigger like a shame response because you've kind of like not fulfilled a promise to yourself?

   5. SPSpeaker0:55

      I think there's two things there. You've got the shame of not actually doing it, but also the shame of-

   6. APAlex Partridge1:00

      Huge announcement just before we start. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theater show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists, and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD, how to process a late diagnosis, AuDHD, and of course, the dreaded rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs, and insights, and one that will remind you that you're not broken, just different, and that you have always been enough. It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person. [upbeat music] Hester, welcome back.

   7. SPSpeaker1:39

      Thank you. Thank you for having me.

   8. APAlex Partridge1:41

      You've been very busy since you were last here.

   9. SPSpeaker1:43

      Yes. Yeah, I think it's been a couple of years now.

   10. APAlex Partridge1:46

       Yeah.

   11. SPSpeaker1:46

       And I was on tour last year, so I did 27 dates in theaters with a show called ADHD Unmasked, and then I'm gonna go on tour later again this year with a show called ADHD Unfiltered. It's been busy, but it's good to be back.

   12. APAlex Partridge1:57

       That's good. How do you manage the, the complexities, the stress of touring? Was that quite a lot?

   13. SPSpeaker2:03

       Do you know what? It was a lot, but equally, I've got an amazing husband, Kelly. He was at home sorting the kids out, sort all the pets out. So actually, I feel slightly spoiled that I was just away. I could just concentrate on the show. Obviously, I went home, et cetera, but I was kind of away for sort of, you know, 10, 11, 12 days at a time, and it just meant that actually I could concentrate on what I was doing. So I loved it. [laughs]

   14. APAlex Partridge2:25

       Yeah. [laughs]

   15. SPSpeaker2:25

       I had like the best time. I met so many people, and I got to speak about ADHD every night on, on stage. So for me, there was nothing better.

   16. APAlex Partridge2:32

       Sounds brilliant. And what was the state of the house like when you got back?

   17. SPSpeaker2:35

       Actually spotless.

   18. APAlex Partridge2:36

       Was it?

   19. SPSpeaker2:37

       Yeah, completely.

   20. APAlex Partridge2:38

       [laughs]

   21. SPSpeaker2:38

       He runs a military-

   22. APAlex Partridge2:39

       Yeah

   23. SPSpeaker2:39

       ... a military ship going on at home. And yeah, I would say Kelly is a lot tidier than I am. But I don't like mess, but I kinda can't help it. [laughs]

   24. APAlex Partridge2:50

       Kelly is your husband, and, uh, is he neurotypical?

   25. SPSpeaker2:53

       So he is... Kelly's autistic and ADHD, and maybe that's why it's so immaculate-

   26. APAlex Partridge2:57

       [laughs]

   27. SPSpeaker2:58

       ... 'cause everything's got a place, and he knows-

   28. APAlex Partridge2:59

       Yeah

   29. SPSpeaker2:59

       ... exactly what's happening.

   30. APAlex Partridge2:59

       His own yin to his own yang.
2. 6:38 – 14:23

   Do a little everyday

   1. APAlex Partridge6:38

      is do a little every day. Like, do you think that's a nice idea? I feel like it's a nice idea and sometimes my brain feels like it's a nice idea, but they forget, or we forget that we had that agreement with each other.

   2. SPSpeaker6:50

      [laughs] This is it, isn't it? I think that's a lovely idea.

   3. APAlex Partridge6:54

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SPSpeaker6:55

      And that is the type of neurotypical cleaning advice you'd get, isn't it? Sort your home out. Do a little bit each day. Keep on top of it. Like, the amount of times I have the intention to Hoover every day, and I'm like, "We've just got a little whizzy around Hoover for downstairs. It's all hard floors. Isn't too difficult." And then I'm like, "Or I could just do something else less boring."

   5. APAlex Partridge7:11

      [laughs]

   6. SPSpeaker7:12

      And I think the key point is we're lacking in dopamine. Our ADHD brains don't have enough dopamine, and cleaning and sorting and life admin and whatever else is really, really boring. So this is the problem, is we're lacking in dopamine, so we can think of 100 things as much more fun than doing that. So the idea of little and often, or doing a little bit every day, is wonderful in principle. And obviously, with ADHD brains, everyone's different, aren't they? So it might work well for someone. I don't know anyone yet with ADHD [laughs] any of my clients who go, "That works perfectly."

   7. APAlex Partridge7:44

      [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker7:44

      But I do think that there are better ways.

   9. APAlex Partridge7:48

      Mm. It, it, it's, it requires consistent executive functioning and working memory, right?

   10. SPSpeaker7:53

       100%.

   11. APAlex Partridge7:53

       And otherwise you're just gonna forget.

   12. SPSpeaker7:55

       Yes. And this is it. I think you've just hit the nail with the working memory as well. So the executive function challenge is if you're, um, if you're ADHD, you've, your executive function level's about a 30% deficit age-wise from a neurotypical brain. So what I mean by that is you might have, let's say... I'm really bad at maths, by the way, but let's just take a 20-year-old, right? Their executive function skills might be 30 to 40% their age younger. So you're actually dealing, very bad at math like I said, with like a kind of 12-year-old, right? Which is why you might have teenagers and you're thinking, "Why is this not working?" Or you might be a young adult. I, I personally think that actually you don't grow out of your executive function age and your difficulties. I think you just find ways to manage it. Um, and I think a lot of ADHDers feel much younger than they are.

   13. APAlex Partridge8:44

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SPSpeaker8:44

       And they feel quite carefree. And actually, executive function with the working memory, like you said, remembering that you had that deal, and actually even if you do remember it, there can be that slight PDA of just going-

   15. APAlex Partridge8:56

       Yes

   16. SPSpeaker8:57

       ... "Do you know what? Actually, no." And you kind of screw yourself. You're a bit like, "Well, no, I'm not... You, you're telling me to do that, but I'm not gonna do that." [laughs]

   17. APAlex Partridge9:04

       Yeah. [laughs]

   18. SPSpeaker9:04

       Again, I can think of more exciting things to do.

   19. APAlex Partridge9:07

       You're in such good mood when you do some cleaning. If I c- if I Hoover my flat-

   20. SPSpeaker9:11

       Yes

   21. APAlex Partridge9:11

       ... if I take the vacuum cleaner around and I, and it looks really nice and, and you're in that high dopamine state-

   22. SPSpeaker9:15

       Yeah

   23. APAlex Partridge9:15

       ... it's so easy to tell yourself, "I'm gonna do this every single Friday at 4:00."

   24. SPSpeaker9:18

       Yes.

   25. APAlex Partridge9:18

       "Because that's worked."

   26. SPSpeaker9:19

       Yes.

   27. APAlex Partridge9:19

       But then Friday at 4:00 comes round. You're distracted by looking up the mating habits of blue whales on Google-

   28. SPSpeaker9:26

       Of course

   29. APAlex Partridge9:26

       ... and you forget to Hoover, or you just skip it.

   30. SPSpeaker9:28

       Yeah.
3. 14:23 – 18:35

   Body doubling

   1. SPSpeaker14:23

      all we need.

   2. APAlex Partridge14:24

      Body doubling is fascinating. It clearly works, 'cause I've heard so many people talking about it. And I've-

   3. SPSpeaker14:27

      Yeah

   4. APAlex Partridge14:28

      ... I've experienced it.

   5. SPSpeaker14:28

      Yeah.

   6. APAlex Partridge14:28

      You know, my, my partner is in the room. It helps you just get over that procrastination hump. Uh, do we know how it works?

   7. SPSpeaker14:36

      If I'm honest, there is some kind of neuroscience that I'm not amazing with, but I think it's the fact that it's someone there to keep you on track. Does that make sense? Well, I did it. So I've been with my husband for 24 years now, we've been married for 18, and neither of us knew we were neurodivergent.

   8. APAlex Partridge14:50

      Mm.

   9. SPSpeaker14:51

      But I would say to him, "I've got some really boring emails to do. Like, I've got..." Whatever it is, it can be life admin, "Oh, my God, I've got to renew my car insurance. Can you just, like, be with me while I do it?" It's almost like a hand-holding thing. Or if it's something really, like I've got to go make dinner, "Right, will you come with me?" Or he's like, "Come on, let's go make breakfast together." Like, it's almost just having a buddy. So there must be something in your brain that... Like I said, I'm not a neuroscientist or anything, that just kind of triggers that whole, "Okay, actually someone is here," and maybe then you're not gonna be as distracted, so they just keep you on track.

   10. APAlex Partridge15:21

       It makes a lot of sense. It's like an accountability buddy, in a way.

   11. SPSpeaker15:23

       100%.

   12. APAlex Partridge15:24

       I suppose also you don't want to let the person down. [laughs]

   13. SPSpeaker15:26

       Well, exactly.

   14. APAlex Partridge15:27

       If someone's watching you empty the dis- the dishwasher-

   15. SPSpeaker15:29

       Yes

   16. APAlex Partridge15:29

       ... it's like, "I don't wanna let you down."

   17. SPSpeaker15:30

       No.

   18. APAlex Partridge15:30

       "I'm gonna do this right now. I've got the motivation. Now let's, let's get those plates out and put them away."

   19. SPSpeaker15:34

       Yes. And the thing is, it sounds like, doesn't it, that everyone's just done and they're watching while you do all the cleaning or the cooking-

   20. APAlex Partridge15:38

       Mm

   21. SPSpeaker15:38

       ... or whatever, and that's not the case at all. But I think sometimes actually you don't need the person to help you, you just need that person to help you almost, like I say, keep on the straight and narrow, but kind of keep, keep focused on what you're doing.

   22. APAlex Partridge15:50

       Mm. And they don't need to be in person, do they? They could be perhaps, like, on, on, on a laptop screen-

   23. SPSpeaker15:54

       Interesting

   24. APAlex Partridge15:54

       ... just in silence while you go through your emails.

   25. SPSpeaker15:56

       Yes. Yes. With it literally you can do... I keep talking about this. We've got a, a big, um, it's a group called Norfolk Women with ADHD-

   26. APAlex Partridge16:03

       Mm

   27. SPSpeaker16:03

       ... up in Norfolk, obviously, where I live, and we keep saying we need to set this up, where you can just have someone that either, you know, on FaceTime or they're on Zoom or whatever, just keeping you on track. You can do it with work as well, but you can do it with, you know, sorting the house out and just... You can either do the same thing at the ta- same time, but actually you don't need to. It just keeps someone on track. The other thing you can do as well, which is really nice, is message a friend, or if you're part of, like, a community or a group or whatever, and say, "Right, I'm gonna set myself a bit of a challenge. I've got to tidy my dining room or living room or whatever. I've got to do this in an hour." And what you do is you share photos. So I say this to my, um, ADHD clients quite a lot. Take a photo, if you can, and I quite often get them to send it to me, of what the room looks like before, and then take a photo afterwards. Because visually you can then see the impact that it's had, which I think is really important. And it's also really good for you to remember how much you like this clean, tidy room.

   28. APAlex Partridge17:01

       Yes.

   29. SPSpeaker17:01

       Does that make sense?

   30. APAlex Partridge17:01

       Yeah, yeah, totally.
4. 18:35 – 22:54

   Out of sight storage

   1. APAlex Partridge18:35

      of sight leads us onto the point number four quite nicely, which is out-of-sight storage.

   2. SPSpeaker18:40

      Yes.

   3. APAlex Partridge18:40

      So we put stuff in a w- in a, in a drawer, in a cabinet, in a cupboard, close the cupboard thinking, "Right, that's it, that's done," um, and then of course we just forget that it exists.

   4. SPSpeaker18:49

      Yes.

   5. APAlex Partridge18:49

      Like, why, why does that happen?

   6. SPSpeaker18:52

      So I was just gonna say really quickly before we go onto why, when I was little, obviously I didn't know I had ADHD, I wasn't diagnosed till I was 40, uh, 43, and I remember I'd get, like, new school shoes or something.

   7. APAlex Partridge19:03

      Mm.

   8. SPSpeaker19:04

      And I used to put them at the end of my bed on the floor, and I realized probably a year or so later that was because of object permanence. If I put them in a cupboard, I'd almost forget they existed, right? So there's just this real thing in your brain, I don't know whereabouts it is, that just we don't see it anymore, so therefore it doesn't belong. It's not real, we can't... It, it just doesn't exist, okay? You can do this with people as well, which is why sometimes people find it really difficult to stay friends with people, et cetera, because they just don't live near, they don't see them very often, so in their mind the person doesn't exist anymore. So when you've got items, say for example I always think vitamins is quite a good example, something that you need to take every day, actually having them in a cupboard like somebody else would, maybe neurotypical people, that feels like it would work, but we then just forget [laughs] that the vitamins exist.

   9. APAlex Partridge19:51

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker19:51

       So what we then end up doing is having everything out that we need on the sides in the kitchen, for example, or visual somewhere. But then the trouble is you then have lots of mess and clutter, and it can feel... Someone can come in and it can feel quite cluttered. So it's about having a space for everything. It's about knowing that actually if I need to find that, that is on that shelf in that cupboard, and it's being... Because maybe you don't need it that much. So sometimes I look at things and I'll think, "Actually, why is that on the side? Because I don't use it even every day, so actually I don't need it out."

   11. APAlex Partridge20:26

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SPSpeaker20:26

       But I think there can be that worry that we're gonna forget things, so you just put everything out, you leave everything out for that fear.

   13. APAlex Partridge20:34

       Gosh, the vitamin pills felt deeply personal, Hester-

   14. SPSpeaker20:37

       [laughs]

   15. APAlex Partridge20:37

       ... because I have many... I know for a fact I have many out-of-date vitamin, uh, boxes in my cupboards. Like, for me, it's like my cleaning has four stages, or it used to. I think it's like step one, panic clean; step two, hide everything; step three, forget where they are, so therefore buy them again. And I've... I remember [laughs] I bought all of my vitamins again-

   16. SPSpeaker20:54

       Did you?

   17. APAlex Partridge20:54

       ... and I went to put them in, uh, in the same cupboard-

   18. SPSpeaker20:56

       Yeah

   19. APAlex Partridge20:56

       ... only to find the original set of vitamins that-

   20. SPSpeaker20:59

       That probably won't help

   21. APAlex Partridge20:59

       ... I'd just had to spend another 50, 60 quid on.

   22. SPSpeaker21:01

       Yeah. Yeah. And this is it. There's, you know, the old ADHD tax.

   23. APAlex Partridge21:05

       Mm.

   24. SPSpeaker21:05

       The cost of everything. You know, it's like a fake tax, but the cost of rebuying vitamins because you put them in the cupboard and forgot. Or I will look in cupboards and be like, "I know there's a particular cleaning product in here. I cannot find it, so I'm just gonna buy it again." There's that r-... And then you look and you go, "Hold on, we've already got three of those exact same cleaning products."

   25. APAlex Partridge21:21

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SPSpeaker21:21

       "I don't need the same." And I think there's this perception, isn't there, that if I find the exact right cleaning product or cloth or storage solution, my life is gonna be perfect, right?

   27. APAlex Partridge21:32

       [laughs]

   28. SPSpeaker21:32

       Oh, my God, it's gonna all be answered. All my prayers are answered. And we know that's not the case, and I think that's why it's really helpful to understand your brain, understand what works, but take away that shame. I'm always talking about being kind to yourself and being kind about yourself, and I think that is what understanding ADHD and your ADHD brings, is the kindness. So actually you don't then beat yourself up about it when you have forgotten that those vitamins are in there or something random's in a cupboard. But I think it's the whole object permanence and out of sight, out of mind, you have to bear that in mind because actually otherwise you are gonna constantly keep rebuying vitamins or whatever it is because they're just... You know, it's okay. As long as everything's got a place. It's when lots of things are everywhere, that's when the problem starts.

   29. APAlex Partridge22:15

       Yeah. No, definitely. I think my memory and I have an agreement now, which is like my memory says, "Do not rely on me. I will not succeed." [laughs]

   30. SPSpeaker22:22

       [laughs]
5. 22:54 – 39:51

   Tiimo advert

   1. APAlex Partridge22:54

      A quick word from our sponsor. We've all had that nightmare. You're on that final warning from that friend. If you miss their birthday again, your friendship is over. Finito. And you do miss it. Even worse, you miss their wedding and you were giving the speech, the speech you forgot to write. "I can change," you plead with them, and they say, "No, you can't." Well, actually, you can. How? Tiimo app, that's how. Tiimo app has organized me in a way that's made me unrecognizable to my nearest and dearest. What ADHD? Tiimo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains, and you can tell. It's built to adapt to your neurodivergent way of thinking and be flexible to your way of planning, and now it's even more simple with the AI planning assistant. A simple voice prompt when you have to plan something, and the new AI planning assistant smoothly transcribes it into an easily digestible list of instructions to guide you. Give it a go, and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note, though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. So for this point, what is the solution? Is, is there a solution? Is it just a, a case of keeping everything visual?

   2. SPSpeaker24:02

      Yeah, do you mean with object permanence? The-

   3. APAlex Partridge24:04

      With s- stuff that you want in your life, but you don't wanna put it away. You don't wanna put it in that cupboard-

   4. SPSpeaker24:08

      Yeah

   5. APAlex Partridge24:08

      ... 'cause you, you literally might risk forgetting that it exists.

   6. SPSpeaker24:11

      Yeah. I think it's perfectly okay to have it out.

   7. APAlex Partridge24:13

      Mm.

   8. SPSpeaker24:13

      As long as it is, as long as there's a place for it. And I think what then happens is people then think, "Actually, do you know what? I'm gonna buy some more storage solution," because that's actually what the issue is. And actually, it might be that you've got so many things, and it's, that's not the issue at all, so you probably need to have a bit of a clear-out. But actually, it's perfectly okay to have certain things out, like vitamins, that you know you're gonna need to take every day, and you're just gonna forget that they exist. But I think the problem happens when you then, the vitamins are not where they normally should be on the sideboard. They're somewhere else, and you've moved them, and that's where they don't live. And then that's when your situation becomes a mess, 'cause you just keep putting everything in there 'cause you're worried you're gonna forget everything.

   9. APAlex Partridge24:51

      Yeah. So is it like you're keeping things like the vitamins at the location of where they are used?

   10. SPSpeaker24:57

       Yes. So for example, you need water with vitamins, so you probably need them in the kitchen where it's near the glass, where it's need, near the water. But also, don't forget that maybe actually your routine is to take your vitamins first thing in the morning, so actually, would it make sense to have them by your bedside table so when you wake up in the morning, that's the first thing you do? It's about creating routines that work for you, even if they maybe look a bit strange to other people.

   11. APAlex Partridge25:23

       Mm.

   12. SPSpeaker25:23

       Doesn't matter, does it? No one else is gonna know. But actually, if that's where you take it, take, you have your vitamins, or maybe you have them last thing at night. So again, maybe it's, you know, in the bathroom as you're doing your teeth next to your toothbrush, or it's by your bed. Whatever works for you. I think it's going through your house and thinking, "How do I live my life? What works? What doesn't?" Actually, like, we rearranged all our cupboards a little while ago, 'cause I was like, the, I think it was Kelly, was like, "The dishwasher's there and the glasses are there, and d- but actually we take the bread out of there to make sandwiches for my son, and then the plates..." Like, it just didn't flow. So kind of think about how you live your life, or is it that you actually take your vitamins at work? So do you have your vitamins at, in your desk at work or in your work bag? Or whatever works for you. I think that's about, that's what it needs to be, rather than, oh, this is, you know, you sh- your vitamins should be in the kitchen, 'cause that makes sense.

   13. APAlex Partridge26:14

       How do we go about decluttering the cupboards? The stuff that, I call it my shame cupboard, because I've got a lot of cupboards that are fill up with stuff. Like the vitamins, they, they're still there-

   14. SPSpeaker26:23

       Yes, of course

   15. APAlex Partridge26:23

       ... and they've gone out of date.

   16. SPSpeaker26:24

       Of course.

   17. APAlex Partridge26:24

       And there's so much shame associated with, like, what's in those cupboards. I'm sure archaeologists will probably study them one day-

   18. SPSpeaker26:29

       [laughs]

   19. APAlex Partridge26:29

       ... and be like, "Ooh," like, "What are all these things?" But is it just the case of you need to just have a day where you just g- find the energy and, and, and empty them so you have, like, new space to, to, to deal with?

   20. SPSpeaker26:40

       It's giving me Monica from Friends, her cupboard.

   21. APAlex Partridge26:42

       Yes. [laughs]

   22. SPSpeaker26:43

       Do you remember her cupboard of doom?

   23. APAlex Partridge26:45

       [laughs]

   24. SPSpeaker26:45

       Um, the thing is, you've already spent the money on them, okay? So that money's already gone. So you holding onto them isn't gonna make any difference.

   25. APAlex Partridge26:52

       Mm.

   26. SPSpeaker26:52

       Okay? It's like with clothes, for example. Have a lot of clothes, and you look and you go, "Oh, but I won't get rid of that item of clothing 'cause I spent money on that," and actually... So but it's not, it's just cluttering up your home, which then clutters up your brain and your space, so then you can't think as clearly 'cause there's just stuff everywhere. So maybe that would be a really great body doubling situation, where you just have someone else that just go, "But you don't need those."

   27. APAlex Partridge27:14

       Mm.

   28. SPSpeaker27:15

       You know, it's like this special cardboard box that you get sent something in the post, and you're like, "Well, that's a handy cardboard box." That's how you can tell you're getting old, isn't it?

   29. APAlex Partridge27:21

       Yeah. [laughs]

   30. SPSpeaker27:22

       Ooh, good cardboard box. Maybe I'll need that one day. Actually, it's just about thinking with the vitamins, just bin them. Just go through the cupboards. If something's out of date, bin it, 'cause you're not gonna use it anyway, but by holding onto it, every time you open that cupboard, you've got that shame. You see them, and it's a reminder. And actually, just by getting rid of it, whatever it is, or out-of-date food in the cupboards or stuff in the fridge, like, you've already spent that money. It's already gone. You holding onto the item because you feel bad about getting rid of it isn't gonna change anything.
6. 39:51 – 49:20

   Deep cleaning marathons

   1. APAlex Partridge39:51

      one, and that's deep cleaning planned marathons. So actually, like, scheduling a, a day to reset the whole flat.

   2. SPSpeaker39:59

      Yeah.

   3. APAlex Partridge39:59

      Let's say we do the whole flat on a Saturday.

   4. SPSpeaker40:01

      Yeah.

   5. APAlex Partridge40:01

      Does that work?

   6. SPSpeaker40:02

      No.

   7. APAlex Partridge40:03

      No. [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker40:04

      [laughs] Question number two.

   9. APAlex Partridge40:05

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker40:06

       No, I think the thing with that is though all good intentions and you're like, "I've got a day off," or, "It's the weekend, I'm gonna spend all day doing that."

   11. APAlex Partridge40:13

       Mm.

   12. SPSpeaker40:13

       Right? So we've not got enough dopamine there to, you know, because we've just got all day. So what does all day look like? Does that mean till 10:00 at night? Are we gonna have interception challenges where we're gonna forget to eat and drink and actually stop and rest? And you can have the best intentions in the world, but actually you don't know what week you're gonna have, you don't know what energy you're gonna have, and we know us ADHDers like to change our plans, and we can wake up on a day and think, "I had all this planned, and actually I'm not feeling it today." And that is the problem with marathons. It, it just doesn't work for us. So we need to have sprints, we need short bursts, like, you know, like 20 minutes, 15 minutes, maybe half an hour if you can sustain that. But just staying in one area rather than going, "I'm gonna tidy the whole flat," because that's never gonna work. And like you were saying earlier, it's gonna... You're gonna get everything out of every cupboard. You're gonna go really all deep dive, and actually everything's gonna end up in a mess.

   13. APAlex Partridge41:09

       And you're probably gonna burn out as well. Like, you might-

   14. SPSpeaker41:11

       100%, yeah

   15. APAlex Partridge41:11

       ... you might do it 'cause you're all or... very all or nothing, but then you're probably gonna need like three business days to recover if you do [laughs] to get through it.

   16. SPSpeaker41:17

       Exactly, and then that's your weekend when you're meant to be resetting and chilling and just-

   17. APAlex Partridge41:20

       Mm

   18. SPSpeaker41:20

       ... doing nice things anyway. And yes, obviously life gets in the way and we need to do cleaning and things, but actually as you say, if you're then that then impacts your Sunday, and then maybe your Monday, or maybe your Tuesday, that's just not worth it. Like, you're just gonna burn out, like you said, and then there's gonna be that guilt and that shame spiral, and kind of round and round it goes.

   19. APAlex Partridge41:37

       So you're saying rather than doing a whole day, like, little sprints. Get like a five-minute timer?

   20. SPSpeaker41:43

       Yes. Yeah, I think timers are amazing. Anything that where you can, like, gamify it.

   21. APAlex Partridge41:47

       Mm.

   22. SPSpeaker41:47

       So whether it's you go, "Right, I'm gonna do this for five minutes, 10 minutes, and I'm gonna see how quickly I can do it. So I'm gonna see how quickly I can do the hoovering." If I set my timer for five minutes, or what you can do is do songs, like I was saying, so you find two great songs or an old song that's five minutes. Go, "Right, until the end of this song, I know I've got to try and get as much done." And then don't forget the rewards, right? And we need a reward quite instantly, and the reward can be really small. It can just be like, "And now I'm gonna make myself a cup of tea," or, "Now I'm gonna have that snack." I don't believe that food and drink should be rewards as in you cannot have that-

   23. APAlex Partridge42:20

       Mm-hmm

   24. SPSpeaker42:20

       ... until you've done it, but I just mean, do you know what? I've got that little chocolate bar on the side, I'm gonna have that bag of crisps or that apple or, you know, whatever it is. Actually, that's gonna be my reward for doing it, 'cause we like rewards, don't we? I also think if you've got partners or maybe you live with flatmates-A thank you. Like, I know that my, me and my husband quite often will be like, "Just so you know, I've done the washing up today, and I've done the hoovering, and I've done the laundry." And we're like, "Oh, my God, thank you." And if anyone else heard us thanking each other for doing these things-

   25. APAlex Partridge42:47

       [laughs]

   26. SPSpeaker42:47

       ... which other people just think are normal things, they'd probably think it's madness. But actually, when he's just like, "Oh, look. Isn't the kitchen tidy?"

   27. APAlex Partridge42:55

       [laughs] Yeah.

   28. SPSpeaker42:55

       You know what I mean? It's just that like, "Oh, yeah," just that little spike a day for me.

   29. APAlex Partridge42:59

       Yeah, such a good idea. I feel like my RSD is so bad. I, I wouldn't wanna let the timer down either.

   30. SPSpeaker43:04

       Okay, yes.
7. 49:20 – 52:37

   Rigid daily cleaning schedules

   1. APAlex Partridge49:20

      that is rigid daily cleaning schedules. For example, Monday we'll do the laundry. Tuesday we'll do the bathrooms.

   2. SPSpeaker49:27

      Yeah.

   3. APAlex Partridge49:28

      Like, I feel like any schedule that has more than two steps for me just gets kind of filed in the "I'll circle back to this in 2029" cabinet-

   4. SPSpeaker49:38

      Yes

   5. APAlex Partridge49:38

      ... and just forgets, forgotten about.

   6. SPSpeaker49:39

      Yeah. Well, firstly, where is this schedule? Is it written down? Is it on a notepad? Is it in our brains? 'Cause if it's in our brains, it is never happening, is it? We've just forgotten about it already. And again, you know, there's that thing, isn't there, where it's like, oh, I clean on a... You know, I'm gonna do all the laundry on a Monday, but what if we need something for the Wednesday or something for the Thursday? Or if you're running a family, you know, you've got a whole household, and there's PE kits involved and school uniforms or football kits at the weekend. Actually, it doesn't always work like that, and if you're neurodivergent, as you well know, you know, your children may probably well be very much so. So it's that kind of thing as well, that almost the whole house has to be involved in that because actually, you can be like, "Well, you know, I'm gonna do the washing on a Monday," but actually, your kids haven't told you they've got piles of stuff in their room or whatever. But, you know, it's about having then a laundry bin that then everything goes in there, et cetera. But I think being really targeted with it is great, but actually, we just try and self-sabotage. [laughs]

   7. APAlex Partridge50:34

      Yeah. [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker50:34

      So it's like, well, no, actually, and again, a bit of the PDA kicks in of like, "Actually, no, I'm not gonna do that because you've told me to," as in you, yourself, you're telling yourself in your brain, you know? And I think that can happen, is the self-sabotage, and then you're just like, "No, I'm not gonna do that today." Or it then throws you when you need to do the washing more than once a week, and you're like, "Well, hold on. It's now a Thursday, and I've gotta do washing as well because, you know, there was more PE this week or sports, or I spilled something down myself," whatever it is. Actually, that can then be really difficult. So I would advise against that.

   9. APAlex Partridge51:04

      [laughs] Do, does it help to have to buy multiple items of, of things that you use regularly?

   10. SPSpeaker51:11

       Yes. [laughs]

   11. APAlex Partridge51:11

       Like phone chargers in every room.

   12. SPSpeaker51:13

       Yes.

   13. APAlex Partridge51:13

       Cleaning sprays and sponges in every room.

   14. SPSpeaker51:15

       Yes, school uniforms, just multiples of things, which I know is really difficult. I know really, you know, it can be really challenging. But actually, the grief and the effort and the energy that it takes, I know that we used to have, like, spare school ties because the chances are we'd have lost a school tie somewhere along the way, and actually, you then always find it. I have multiple of the same lip glosses. I have one in my bag, one in the car. You know, I keep lots of things in the car because I know that actually I'm probably gonna need them in there. So yes, multiples of lots of things, if you can afford it, I think is really important, and it just makes life a lot easier because then you have a phone charger in the sitting room, in the bedroom, you know, in the car, for example, whatever. Then you've always got something with you.

   15. APAlex Partridge51:55

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SPSpeaker51:55

       Whereas I think if you've got, there's just one item, this precious item that you're... You know, you're just always gonna lose it, aren't you, which is really frustrating.

   17. APAlex Partridge52:03

       Yeah, definitely. I feel like it takes away the sort of I'll-do-it-later barrier.

   18. SPSpeaker52:07

       Yes.

   19. APAlex Partridge52:07

       From-

   20. SPSpeaker52:07

       'Cause it's right there, isn't it? You can then just plug your phone in, or you can then... You know, with the kids as well, I think it's really helpful to get them involved and be like, "Right, there we go." You know, I just remember we literally had five lots of school uniform, so f- you know, five lots of shirts, I think three pairs of trousers, to be fair. But then there was just no... I- I- Everything was hung up. You could see it visually. You know, if you're-

   21. APAlex Partridge52:28

       Mm

   22. SPSpeaker52:28

       ... a grownup and you're trying to plan your outfits for the week, you know, have them hanging up so you can visually see, "That's what I'm gonna be wearing today," and then you know it's clean, et cetera, rather than trying to scramble around that

8. 52:37 – 53:28

   Closing advice

   1. SPSpeaker52:37

      morning.

   2. APAlex Partridge52:37

      So, so helpful. What's some closing advice, Hester, for anyone watching, anyone listening who, who is neurodivergent and, and sh- trying to keep their house in order? What's, what's some closing advice for them?

   3. SPSpeaker52:48

      Oh, be kind to yourself.

   4. APAlex Partridge52:50

      Yeah. [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker52:50

      Little and often. And I think it's like you don't need to reinvent the wheel. I think there's a real perception of, "I need to, like, scrub the bathroom from top to toe." You know, actually, is it okay just to whiz around with a quick bathroom wipe? I know they're not the most environmentally friendly, but actually, ADHD task, et cetera, just whiz around. You're gonna feel a lot better for it as well. And I think it's about remembering the shame, that there is no shame. It's okay. You know? Body doubling is great, but I just think remembering just be kind to yourself, 'cause it's hard enough, isn't it, having ADHD without then stressing over having a tidy house.

   6. APAlex Partridge53:24

      Yeah. Yeah. Phenomenal advice, Hester. Thank you so, so much.

9. 53:28 – 54:11

   A letter to my younger self

   1. APAlex Partridge53:28

      Just finally, I'm gonna deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest, where they wrote a letter to their younger self.

   2. SPSpeaker53:34

      Okay.

   3. APAlex Partridge53:34

      And if you could kindly read it for us.

   4. SPSpeaker53:36

      Okay.

   5. APAlex Partridge53:36

      There we go.

   6. SPSpeaker53:38

      Thank you. Okay, to the next guest. Right. "ADHD is not what you think it is. All brains are more different than people think. Be open, dot, dot, dot. There is greatness in there. Love, heart." I love that.

   7. APAlex Partridge53:55

      Wow, what a closing sentiment.

   8. SPSpeaker53:57

      Okay. Actually giving me goosebumps.

   9. APAlex Partridge53:58

      [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker53:58

       I don't know who wrote that, but that is amazing.

   11. APAlex Partridge54:01

       Hester, on behalf of everyone struggling to grapple their brains and keep their house in order- [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker54:06

       [laughs]

   13. APAlex Partridge54:06

       ... thank you so much.

   14. SPSpeaker54:07

       Thank you. Thank you so much. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 54:12