ADHD Chatter Podcast5 Signs of Nervous System Healing (That Don't Feel Like Healing!) | Dr Jacob Ambrose
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 9,950 words- 0:00 – 1:14
Intro
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
With ADHD and autism, they've been performing for the most part of their life. People say, "Wow, you are actually able to do something that we find worthy in our eyes." The sad thing that's happening behind the scenes is that that same individual is actually not being loved for who they are, but for what they can do.
- APAlex Partridge
What would you say to someone who has spent their whole life believing that they're too sensitive, emotional, lazy, or simply too much?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
It was always your environment that wounded you, an environment that didn't understand that these gifts that you've had were things that were always meant to be blossoming into the world. A lot of people with ADHD can feel like they're too much. You were sold that story before you even knew it was true.
- APAlex Partridge
If your whole life has been powered by fear, what replaces it?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
That is a really good connection to the nervous system. It is all about either-
- APAlex Partridge
Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Dr. J, welcome back.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
It's good to be here. Good to be back.
- 1:14 – 2:17
What does ‘healing your nervous system’ actually mean
- APAlex Partridge
We see a lot online, a lot on social media, people talk about their nervous system is healing. But as a psychologist, from your perspective, what does that actually mean?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
That's a fantastic question because I think a lot of people get confused when they hear about nervous system regulation. They think, "Does that just mean being calm?" Um, and it, it's not quite just being calm. It's a little bit about finding the correct prediction model for how to respond to reality. So, so I'll be a little more specific about that. I- if you're next to a bear and you feel calm, that is a big problem. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
You know, but i- if you're trying to, uh, talk to someone on a date and you wanna feel calm, but you feel extremely nervous, that's also a problem. So nervous system regulation is basically finding a way to have your natural reaction to the world respond in an effective way. Um, and that, that's typically what people get confused. They think nervous system regulation means calm, when in reality it means responding effectively to reality.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow. Okay. So this is super interesting, and if someone's listening and they're thinking, "Do I have a regulated nervous system or not?"
- 2:17 – 4:50
What does a dysregulated nervous system actually look like
- APAlex Partridge
Like, what does a dysregulated nervous system look like in reality?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Great. Great question. Yeah. Um, so, so when looking at the nervous system, you can really look at it into two separate poles. You have the, um, sympathetic nervous system, which is all about dysregulated. You're all... You're very activated in the way. You feel as though you- your heart's racing, you're nervous. But when you look at the parasympathetic nervous system, that's all about rest and digest. So if you're asking, what does it look like when somebody has a dysregulated nervous system? Their nervous system is basically in a state of go when it needs to rest and stop, and it's feeling as though it needs to, um, you know, slow down when it needs to speed up. And a lot of people run into that issue when they're dysregulated in social situations, when it comes to, um, relationships, when it comes to work. So, so trying to find that balance really looks like trying to recreate experiences. Because one of the things that I think helps clients the most when they're trying to navigate their nervous system is learning that the nervous system is something that responds based on experiences. Um, we have two parts of the brain. We have the rational brain that's all about the present moment. It's kinda like this whiteboard in our head that we use to manipulate information, go about our day. But we also have this very reptilian side that's connected to the nervous system, and that's the part of us that learns based on experience. If, if I touch a hot stove and I learn that the hot stove is, is not gonna feel good when I touch it, you're gonna physiologically feel unwell as your hand approaches it. But if you're finding that you're feeling unwell in the wrong circumstances, that's, that's where the problem starts. That's where the dysregulation happens.
- APAlex Partridge
And what are the knock-on effects, like the consequences of someone who might have a dysregulated nervous system but not realizing? I- in practical reality, what does that life look like for someone?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Oh, yeah, that's... Yeah, a lot of people can have just this chronic experience of feeling overwhelmed, um, so much so that overwhelmed starts to feel like the norm. You might go about your day, and you might be scanning, you might be vigilant to make sure that nobody can either hurt you, reject you. You might feel as though, "Oh, wait a minute, I need to be on all the time." So, so in real day-to-day experiences, a, a dysregulated nervous system can, can look like one where you feel as though the stakes are always high. Uh, you feel like things are urgent at the wrong times. Um, and for other people, that can look like a state of burnout. Um, you know, you, you feel overwhelmed to the point where now you no longer feel on edge, but you feel like you can't get out of bed the next day.
- APAlex Partridge
And a lot of people have clicked on this episode with the
- 4:50 – 6:21
Why healing makes you feel worse to start with
- APAlex Partridge
title promising that you can heal your nervous system, but this was fascinating when researching this episode. You can get healthier, but also feel worse. How is that possible?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Y- yes, yes. When... You can f- you can start to feel worse as you get healthy because in a sense you're trying something new. So, um, if you're someone that needs to learn how to, uh, respond well to reality and you're finding that your nervous system is off, then it's very likely that you'll run into issues when you're trying to figure out the new and correct thing to do. So, so trying to find that nuance [laughs] -
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... is really tricky because if you're also doing something wrong, y- you're feeling as though you're, um, you know, overwhelmed, you're holding in a lot of your negative responses to the world, then you can also have this chronic experience of being overwhelmed in other spaces. But also, when you're trying something new, that can also feel uncomfortable. So a lot of the work that I do with my clients is trying to find the right kind of discomfort to push you forward, um, and, and, and finding that you can, you can look at the different kinds of nervous system reactions, fine-tune it, and really figure out the right direction to go.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah, so, so interesting. I mean, it blew my mind, J, when I was researching this episode, because I've got seven ways here- ... that people can use to heal their nervous system. But when I was going through the list, like a lot of these look like the opposite of healing, but actually when you dig a little deeper and you get into the nuance, which is what we're gonna do, like actually you realize they're what you have to do. You have to go through some short-term discomfort to get to a better place.
- 6:21 – 8:06
The first rule of healing
- APAlex Partridge
The first one is you have to feel more. Like, why might getting healthier actually make you more emotional?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Oh, yeah, I love that question a lot. Well, well, one of the reasons that getting healthier might make you feel more unwell is because oftentimes there's past wounding, you know? And so I can't emphasize this enough, but our nervous system is making a prediction for how to respond to reality. So if, again, if you touch a hot stove and then you start to feel overwhelmed, that's a really healthy thing because your body is telling you not to do that again. Um, it's sending you energy and reminding you that this was unsafe. So a lot of people who need healing have had childhood experiences of rejection, um, repeated experiences of shame, and they're going back into these, uh, states with their nervous system as an adult because there's some event in reality that's reminding them of the pain that, "Oh, wait, I need to avoid this." So, so part of the reason that healing can start to open up some of those old wounds is because healing requires vulnerability, allowing space for something good and bad to happen and hoping that something good happens because the nervous system learns based on experience. So if you can get new positive experiences where you're feeling as though, "Wait a minute, this was unsafe the last time this happened, but, but now I, I spoke with someone and, and made eye contact and, and it felt good, you know? And, and they responded well." That you might still feel weird in that process-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... but that's where the learning happens, is when you do something new, you feel the anticipation of the bad, but then you allow the good to happen. And so the, the... it's a gamble because bad things can happen again that can re-trigger the trauma, right? So that, that's a lot of the reason why trauma can, can kind of well up to the surface when you're trying to learn how to heal.
- 8:06 – 12:23
The big emotions that come with healing
- APAlex Partridge
And is it possible that somebody could experience big emotion as they are healing, perhaps anger, grief, resentment because they have been suppressing those emotions for so many years?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
One thousand percent, yes, yes. I know a lot of people who have had to comeo- overcome, uh, past trauma, um, experiences of emotional abuse, neglect. They were so severely punished when they released those emotions in childhood that they've learned, "If, if I release this, then there's a, a hammer's gonna drop and really hurt me." So when you're in the process of healing, um, a lot of the work that I do with clients is you can be in the room in a very safe place talking about something that you never had the opportunity to release. So if you're releasing this and you're processing it, A, it's very healthy because now you're not gonna get... the hammer's not gonna drop. Um, ideally this is a safe place.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
But the big emotions will still intensify and surface because your, your nervous system doesn't know that, you know? And so you have the rational brain that is in the present that's hearing the therapist say, "Hey, this is the path towards healing. Allow space for vulnerability." And you're like, "Okay, that sounds great." But the nervous system needs more support. It needs more experience in order to really believe that to be true. I need to touch the burner and see that it's actually not hot.
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
I need to do that over and over again until it starts to feel safe.
- APAlex Partridge
I've spoken to people, Jay, who have been to therapy, and they've gone through a lot of the stuff that we're talking about, and they've come out and, and they tell me that they're actually even more confused about how they're, how they feel inside. And they've asked me, "How can you tell the difference between healthy emotional processing and genuinely getting worse?" How can someone tell the difference between those two things?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
You have to really identify, um, "Am I moving towards health in this pain?" If someone has dealt with extreme rejection in childhood, um, and it was not their fault that they were hurt, and then they go on to practice these new interventions in therapy of trying to be their true authentic self, and then the moment they try it, the people around them again reject, reject them in a very, very harmful way, you know, that is not really healthy healing because your nervous system is not getting new data for the better. Um, but if you are practicing new interventions and you're seeing that, "Oh, wait a minute, this is a new experience that feels good," that is going to lead to a lot of positive change. I, I use a lot of the example of, um, someone that is going into a swimming pool. Let's say they have a trauma of, uh, you know, they tried to swim and they didn't know how to, and so now they're afraid of water, you know?
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Um, so, so part of the intervention is getting you back in the water. But what if that therapist tossed you into the Atlantic Ocean where the waters are really tossing you around? Well, well, your nervous system is not gonna get anything new. It's actually gonna be re-traumatized in a way. And so that's something you wanna avoid, which is why therapy is supposed to be gentle. But if you never get in the water at all and you never learn how to re-engage with the water that i- if there's a value within the water that you need, then you're also not gonna do the healing. So, so therapy shouldn't feel, uh, too, too, um, comfortable.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
But it also shouldn't feel too uncomfortable.
- APAlex Partridge
Have you seen this process happen with somebody that you've worked with?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Oh, yeah. I've... Th- this is kind of, uh, almost every, uh, person that I've worked with. There's some sort of experience that they have a value when... A- and unfortunately, they're unable to re-engage with that value because of some trauma. And so I've, I've worked with a lot of people that deal with rejection in relationships. They feel as though, "Well, um, I've had dealt with narcissistic abuse in childhood," for example, or, "My needs weren't met." And so now they try to go into the world of dating, for example, and they feel as though, "Wow, I, I can't seem to figure this out. I'm ex- I'm either extremely locked in and hyper-focused on another individual or because I'm trying to suppress my natural reactions because I know that I got hurt before, I'm very standoffish." And so, so a lot of cases that I've worked with have felt Just this feeling of being re-traumatized and lonely in relationships, starting off with a past of narcissistic abuse, and then going on to this experience of, "I still can't connect with humans."
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- 12:23 – 17:42
How healing reduces anxiety and makes you less productive
- APAlex Partridge
Is it possible to lose your drive and motivation as you go through this process of healing? Because you might discover on that journey of healing that what is driving you and making you motivated and productive is anxiety, and panic, and dread. And actually, as you go through the process of unwinding and working out where that anxiety and panic is coming from, and hopefully reducing it, can that, at least in the short term, create a reduction of productivity?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Yes. Yes. It, it, it can truly look and feel as though you're failing in the process of healing. A- and that's true because a lot of people will be ... They, they've been performing for the most part of their life. Let's say they experienced this shame in, in childhood, and they, they feel as though they've been, um, you know, hurt or rejected because of who they are or who knows, their neural chemistry, and then they go on to try and, um, i- get that acceptance. It, it works for a while because at first, the shame goes away when you start to perform well. People say, "Wow, you are actually able to do something that we find, uh, worthy in our eyes," right? But the, but the sad thing that's happening behind the scenes is that that same individual is actually not being loved for who they are, but for what they can do.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
And so you see a lot of people who've been performing since childhood, uh, fall into what I call this cyclical maladaptive pattern, where they engage in a behavior, receive praise, and then that is what regulates them, and they're no longer regulating because of who they are, but because of what they do. So what happens when you engage in reality and, and you have this pattern of making sure that you perform in order to receive acceptance, then that just snowballs into this process where you always feel on edge unless you're performing well. And you do feel calm from time to time, but it's only because of your performance. You, in a sense, only feel safe within a panic room.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting, Jay. I met this woman who was a h- high-flyer in many areas of her life. She had her own business. But she came to the realization that much of her life was a mask, and she was putting so much effort into maintaining this, this caricature of, of normal and perfection, and she didn't realize how much effort she was putting in to keeping up appearances. And she went to therapy after a diagnosis of ADHD, and she really worked through how much anxiety and panic was driving her to achieve the results in her business. And after about two or three months of successful therapy for her, she said she actually experienced a huge reduction in her productivity because she, in her words, had lost the anxiety and panic that was driving her, and she really felt bad about herself. Like, she couldn't understand why she couldn't get off the sofa on a particular day, and she actually, in her words, said that she started feeling really bad, and she actually started drinking alcohol again after she had been sober for, for many, many years. And that's heartbreaking, and she now ... She has come out of that and she's doing the work. But can that period after healing where you perhaps have worked out that anxiety and reduced that panic, and therefore you're having a lower period of produ- productivity, can that look like burnout or even depression?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
It can, yes, yes, 'cause what you see with a lot of people is their values can be really connected to what they're doing, right? With their work. Um, if you've had to perform for several years in order to make sure that you got this acceptance, of course it would be more healthy if you were just loved for who you are, but what if that was your only coping strategy for 30 years, you know? And then you take that coping strategy away. That can make you fall on your face even though you're doing this healthy behavior. It can lead to other strategies of distraction, uh, substances, something to lift you back up. And so that's part of the reason why the healing process has to be so gentle. Um, and I know a lot of people with ADHD, for example, they've experienced so much shame growing up, because your natural way of engaging with the world has been, um, a way that was not seen as regular to the people around you. And so you learn very early, "I need to move in a way that's at odds with who I naturally am." You have more impulsivity. You learn through trial and error more often as somebody with ADHD.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
But then for some people, they fall into the corporate box that says, "We need you to be very critical and polished before you enter a workspace," for example. So, uh, when you have that mindset, you slowly stop start... You slowly start to adopt the mindset of, uh, the environment around you that's at odds with your own neural chemistry. So now you're at odds with your neural chemistry too, and then you start to be very detail-oriented, and that is just the cognitive stress happening underneath the radar that nobody else sees. So over time, that can look like extreme burnout. That, that can be depression, and that can look like people on the outside wondering, "What happened? You were doing fine." Um, a- and that can even be surprising to the individual who does not know that, well, part of the reason you're falling into this stage of burnout is because you've been working harder than the next person since you could, you know, breathe.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. Gosh, this is such an important conversation, Jay. And I think this is the most important
- 17:42 – 19:31
If your life has been powered by fear, what replaces it
- APAlex Partridge
question. If your whole life has been powered by fear, what replaces it?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
If your whole life has been powered by fear, then shame is, uh, what replaces it, I think. And that is a really good connection to the nervous system, because the nervous system, it, it is all about either urgency in a, in a negative way, or it can be about reaching your hand out in a hopeful way. So, so our, our heart rate can elevate for good reasons, um, and it can also elevate to avoid threat. But our heart rate can also decrease for good reasons, and it can decrease because we're in a state of learned helplessness.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
So learned helplessness is, is a state where our nervous system goes into what's called this dorsal vagal mode, um, where we don't wanna move, not because we wanna rest, but because we feel as though there's no hope, and basically your nervous system is pumping this anesthesia into your body, and it makes you move slower. Everything feels heavier. So when somebody is operating in a state of urgency since childhood, and then they finally get to this point where they realize, "I, I can't keep this up," right?
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Fear has been motivating you, and it's, you've been in this state of urgency. And, and the thing about being in a state of urgency is that you don't realize how much you've been moving and how hard you've been working until your body finally slows down.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
You've, you've been running through the woods at full speed, and you've got cuts and scrapes on your body. And you don't feel that pain because there's adrenaline pumping in your body. But the moment that you get home and you put hydrogen peroxide and you start to heal the wounds and you start to rest, you're like, "What has been happening to me?"
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. Oh, this is such a critical part of the conversation, and you, you've hit the nail on the head. You can be exhausted so badly, but without actually realizing it. If we just zoom in on that particular
- 19:31 – 21:10
How can you feel exhausted but not realise
- APAlex Partridge
point, how is it possible for somebody to be totally exhausted, but without realizing it?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
That's the adrenaline, you know? The, the adrenaline is, is so pumped into your body because what your nervous system is doing, it, it's basically being a good caretaker.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
It's looking at your environment. It's creating this prediction for how to respond to it. And if your environment demands that you're in this state of urgency and you're moving quick, then your nervous system does not want you to know [laughs] that you're tired yet. It wants you to feel as though you can move quickly until the threat is gone.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
But what happens when the threat never leaves? Um, what happens when you're navigating life and it feels as though you could always fail if the other shoe drops? Well, then there's always this sense of this, this, this adrenaline being pumped into your body, this, this cortisol, this stress response, right? Um, and, and your, your body just can hold onto that and put that performance up for a period of time, but at some point, you know, you, you, you can't keep going, you know? And some people either hit burnout at a point where they don't realize it, and it's just, they've just been carrying so much weight. Some people finally try to rest for the first time, and they're, "Oh my gosh."
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
You know?
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
So there's, there's a couple of places to, uh, get to burnout, you know? It just takes a while to get there for some people.
- APAlex Partridge
This sounds like, I mean, it's, it's a risky territory because on the one hand you can suddenly realize y- that you're exhausted and you think, "Okay, I need some time to rest here. I need some alone time." But that could potentially maybe come with a loneliness if you start separating yourself from those around you. But that's the next question
- 21:10 – 23:55
Restorative solitude vs unhealthy isolation
- APAlex Partridge
really, like, what is the difference between restorative solitude and unhealthy isolation?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Yes, yes. So when you're thinking about restorative, uh, time alone versus this experience of just this isolation and you're, you're kind of falling into, there's, there's two things to really consider. Well, one, um, with the nervous system, there's this theory called polyvagal theory, where they, they realize at some point that you don't just rest, you know, with your nervous system. There's, there's two kinds of ways the nervous system slows down. One is ventral vagal, you know, rest, where you're restoring and you don't feel like it's because you're, you're in the state of learned helplessness. It feels good. Um, the other kind though, which is called dorsal vagal, that's when you feel as though you are in a state of learned helplessness, and your, your nervous system does not see a way out, and so like a good caretaker is saying, "Let's put some anesthesia into your body."
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Some people who are finally finding the time to rest and restore are not feeling like they're in a state of learned helplessness. They feel as though life is good, um, I've got goals, I have values, and I want some time alone to rest, which is great. But some people are in a state where they feel as though, "I don't wanna see tomorrow. I don't wanna wake up tomorrow. I wanna just stay in my bed and no longer face all my responsibilities." Everything feels heavier, and these are the people that are more in that state of dorsal vagal. They, those are the people that are isolating when they actually need people. So if you're finding that you're feeling extremely heavy, um, and you're finding that you don't really feel like getting up in the morning the next day, and you, you don't feel up to things, things feel too daunting, you know, that's how you know you're probably more in that state where you, you need people even though you wanna isolate.
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna show you something, Jay. I bought this item, and it actually really helped me understand the concept of healing, in particular overwhelm. And I feel like overwhelm, if I press down on this car pedal, can feel like going from zero to 100. But do you think we're actually missing 20, 40, 60, and 80?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Y- yes. I mean, i- and in a way it's meant to be that way with our nervous system because, uh, the, the nervous system, um, creates a prediction for how to respond to reality, and the reason that prediction is not always 100% accurate is because it needs to be fast. If, if you see a stick when you're on a hike and you think that it's a snake, um, you don't have the time to really see if it's a snake or a stick perfectly. So your nervous system sends that jolt of energy. It skips the 20, the 30, the 40. And I think the, a good point here is that with, with ADHD, that, that skip is oftentimes-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... much faster.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- 23:55 – 25:30
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- APAlex Partridge
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- 25:30 – 29:22
The early warning signs of a dysregulated nervous system
- APAlex Partridge
quite quickly. What do you think are the earlier signs that someone is dysregulated?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Oh, the, the earlier signs are, they're there, and oftentimes really hard to see, especially if you're someone that's, um, used to suppressing a lot of your natural needs, you know? So I think a lot of people, if they're trying to find, um, the, the signs that begin, you need to really look at your very, um, you know, bodily needs, those bodily focused needs, you know, um, a- and not ignore those. Because if the nervous system is making prediction for how to respond to reality and you're ignoring the need to use the restroom or to drink water, you know, and you're not paying attention to those signs, then your nervous system is gonna generalize that same message to other interactions socially. "Oh, I should forgo my wants and needs in order to please this person I'm talking to," you know? So if you're trying to identify, you know, uh, what's happening underneath-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... how do I make sure that I'm able to, uh, speak to these in the moment, you really have to start building patterns where you are doing it before you're in a state of dysregulation.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Because when you're in a state of dysregulation, it's gonna be much more hard to see. It's gonna be much more difficult to read your notes, uh, even during a speech because y- you're, it's gonna look blurry, you know? You're gonna have a hard time communicating those.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm. Just to zoom in on that point for a second, and just for a moment to get geeky, like is there a way we can train ourselves to notice those signals earlier?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Yes, yes. It, it takes a lot of practice, but I would say that the best tool you can utilize is making sure that you are not practicing in the middle of the battlefield. Um, if you're someone that experiences anxiety and you feel overwhelmed at work, um, it's important that you start to make sure you're prioritizing your wants and needs before you go to work, you know? Um, when you're feeling like you're talking to your friends and if you're not typically someone who advocates for yourself, then it's gonna be much harder for you to advocate for yourself at work. So I'd say focus on the practical, whatever is uniquely tied to your specific values, and figure out exactly where you start and where you end. Uh, the next time somebody asks you for your availability, try not to stutter around the part where you're saying, "I don't know if I can do this day." Like, like, make sure you become very aware of what your availability is so that you can give a firm, "I can't do Monday, but I can do Friday."
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm. So interesting. I met this man, Jay, and [laughs] and he told me this story. He, he came home from work. He was pretty stressed out. He, he, he was probably burnt out, he said. And h- and his partner had made dinner, and they sat down at the dinner table. And he was eating, and his partner asked, "How was the food?" And he kind of thought it was really nice, but he just said, "Yeah, I mean, it was nice. Thank you so much." And apparently his partner stood up from the table really abruptly and, and said, "I want a divorce." And she said, "You're not grateful. I've been cooking for two hours. I had it ready for you when you got home from work, and now you're not showing that you appreciate all of that effort." And then he was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. What, what, what, what? How, what caused this?" A, a couple of hours later, they had a conversation and, and she said that in that moment she kind of wasn't thinking rationally. She took that comment or how he said, "Yeah, the dinner is nice," as kind of quite nonchalant and, and that she thought he didn't mean it, and she got triggered, and this rage blew up inside of her. And now she looks back and thinks, "How was I not thinking clearly?" And she said to me, sh- having been on a bit of a healing journey herself, one of the biggest changes that she's realized is that she can now get angry and think clearly, whereas before she got angry and that inability to, to think clearly was there, and she often said some irrational stuff. But just
- 29:22 – 32:51
Why reason leaves you when you’re triggered
- APAlex Partridge
before we get to that, like what is happening inside the brain when you're in an argument and all rational thoughts disappear?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Yes. Your, your nervous system is sending you energy, and it, it's putting you in a state of fight or flight. That's sort of what's happening, and you are trying to use rational words to communicate. But because you're so activated in that moment, your nervous system is not telling you that you're having a conversation with someone you love. Your nervous system is saying, "The threat is in the room, and I need self-protection." A lot of people, just like in, uh, that person's experience, have pushed the can of their anger down for so long. And, and one of the reasons that happens is because- You've said no to your nervous system for a very long time.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
You've stifled your wants and needs for so long that, um, now they're coming out like a shaken up soda can that you've suppressed for a long time.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
So of course, if you've said no to your nervous system over and over and over again, you've ignored your signals, it's gonna lead to a situation where you're with that person you love, an argument's gonna push that needle just over the limit, and then you're gonna explode, and now the reptile is in charge.
- APAlex Partridge
So is it a case that if you want to kind of get to the point where you're able to regulate your emotions better, is it that you want to be less emotional or you wanna think about your emotions more?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Ooh, yeah, I love the way you, you worded that, that question. It, it, it really is a timing sort of, uh, problem. You really have to think about fixing this issue. It's, it is more so damage control the moment the emotions arise. It's, it's already too late in a sense to really make the core difference and changes. Not to say they're not important-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... it's really important to make those changes in the moment in the middle of an argument, but the biggest change is gonna happen, uh, way before the argument. It's gonna be the moments where you proactively notice that there's, "Oh, this person overstepped my boundaries. I'm not gonna hold it in and build resentment, so I'm gonna tell this person, 'Hey, I don't like when we do this. I like when we do that.'" Um, it's also going to be not trying to seek reassurance as often and give reassurance as often because i, I think the story is a really good one, where this person might feel as though, "I need to make sure I uphold this level of effort in the relationship to make sure I reassure them to this level." Now that's expected, and when the other person doesn't meet that bar, then they start to feel wrong, you know?
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. Wow.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
So it, it comes with this changing of behavior on, uh, both in terms of your behavior-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... your expectations, and in terms of the timing of when you do that work.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow. And this changing behavior, have you personally seen that transform someone's relationship?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Oh, yeah. Um, one really good example is, is someone that felt similarly to this person's story, like they weren't being seen by their partner. Um, they felt as though they would say something, and then their partner would just turn it into this logical, rational experience where they... It's just cold, you know? Um, but what we found later was that they were actually giving too much in terms of themselves to the other person. The person that would share something about their day and, um, their partner would share something about their day-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... and then they would respond by saying something like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." This, they would attune to the other person's experience. But they got so used to doing that that there was no opportunity for them to have their needs met in the relationship. So they would build this resentment over and over and over again by not expressing their wants and needs and always meeting the needs of their partner. And say, well, partly yes, they need to attune to you, and we gotta find a way to put you first in a relationship in ways that are healthy.
- 32:51 – 37:23
When rejection stops feeling so personal
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. So interesting. I feel like one of the signs that you are healing is, like, the rejection stops sticking. It stops feeling so personal. And I always think about that lady who I met called Beth, who she had been sober for seven years, and she was in the office ready to clock off for the weekend on a Friday afternoon, and she got an email, and it was her boss. And it said, "Bethany, have a lovely weekend. Can we have a chat Monday morning?" And that's all it said, no context. And she catastrophized with thoughts such as, "I'm useless. Everyone in the office hates me. I'm definitely gonna get fired." She went home and she bought a bottle of wine and she got absolutely drunk and relapsed after seven years of sobriety. And she went into work on Monday morning and, and she was shaking and trembling and went into her boss's office and they said, "Bethany, I would like to offer you a promotion." And it just shows that the, the, the s- sensitivity to rejection in the absence of context and clarity will catastrophize and assume the worst case scenario. But why does that happen? Why does a little comment, a, a little change in tone of someone's voice, why can that stay in someone's head for days?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Part of the reason for that is because you've had past experiences where it was true that if you missed something, everything could go wrong. So many people, especially people with ADHD, have past experiences where they were off from the norm. And as a result of that, they learn early on and internalize the message that, "I am wrong if I don't think."
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
"I will be hurt if I don't notice the facial expressions of other people." So you become hypervigilant. And now in adulthood, you might actually be in a safe place. It might not be that if this person makes this facial expression, you, you'll get hurt. But what happens now, you create this cyclical maladaptive pattern where you pay very close attention to people's facial expressions, and then once you notice them, then you have the physiological reaction in your nervous system that is anticipating rejection, and then you recreate that outcome sometimes. Because now the other person feels off-put by you being off-put, and they think that you might even be rejecting them. So the person who has experienced this feeling of, "I can't get this thought out of my head that I said the wrong thing in this person's face," well, part of the reason is because the nervous system has gotten lots of evidence that that leads to danger, and that recreates the cycle, and you get more experiences that, "Oh, see? I told you, it does lead to danger."
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. I- I- is it related to pattern recognition? Y- you've got so much evidence from your childhood, from experience of being rejected, that you can predict how a single event will end. It's like you've got a row of 10 dominoes on a table in front of you, and it only takes one little comment like that email, "Can we have a chat later?" To trigger the dominoes, and you're already emotionally reacting to the 10th domino falling, which is you're getting fired. But there's misfires. That's not always correct. In, in that example, like, i- it was incorrect, and you're, you're emotionally reacting to a future event that was never gonna happen anyway.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Yes, yes. They, and there's two sides to that coin, and I think what a lot of people with ADHD miss is that you have this incredible gift when it comes to pattern recognition because you can see in the future in a way. You can hyperfocus on something that's a real point of reality. Create hyperassociations about it, feel more intensely what, what is anticipated to come, and unfortunately, sometimes those emotional experiences can be disturbed because other people don't see what you're seeing.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
But on the other side of that coin, there's also the experiences of feeling overwhelmed, um, and seeing a real point of reality that could come true, but then going on to making it happen because you're anticipating it. Because as human beings, we have what's called these, uh, mirror neurons. So, uh, thankfully we have these because it allows other people to react to what we're reacting to. So if I look to the right and I see, uh, and I- and I have wide eyes and I'm anticipating a giant ball to crash through the window, right? You're probably gonna look at what I'm looking at to see what is Jacob feeling, you know? And that's gonna allow you to feel cortisol in your body as well.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
But the same thing can be happening on a date when you notice a facial expression in someone that reminds you of a frown you saw in childhood, and that person starts to see, oh, wait a minute, I'm experiencing the cortisol that they're experiencing. Is this experience leading to something dangerous-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... that I should not be a part of?
- APAlex Partridge
All right. This is so good. I feel like let's just fo- stay on this for a moment. Because it can be a blessing and a curse, I feel like, this ability to, to sense danger and to be a good judge of character and to know when someone's off. You've almost got like this internal BS radar. [laughs]
- 37:23 – 38:51
The difference between being perceptive and hypervigilant
- APAlex Partridge
But when... What's the difference between like that, being perceptive, and being hypervigilant?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Mm. Mm. That's a huge... It's, it's a huge distinction to make and a tough one to do. It- when it comes to being perceptive, you know, you have this gift when it comes to your perceptive ability, and the way that is different than vigilance is when vigilance can be hyper, you know? You are paying attention to all the potential threats in the room that could actually become threats, and it's becoming a, a disservice to you-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... and, and how you navigate your day. But when it comes to more of that perceptive ability, it is helpful when it's more so investigating and not in a state of threat. You're not, you're not thinking, "Oh my gosh, this is gonna go horribly wrong." But also, you're, you're using that threat state when you're in real danger, and I think for this reason, a lot of people, for example, with ADHD who are good at hyperfocusing and noticing patterns can be really good at detecting when a narcissist is around, you know? Because they can... and that, that's when the stars sort of align from what you've seen, uh, since childhood, because you've been missed very often, and you deal a lot with shame. You can sort of see when someone is almost sort of full of themself and grandiose in a way that other people miss.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Um, i- in a sense it's basically your prediction model is very powerful at detecting, uh, real threats, but part of the issue is that sometimes you'll accidentally overlap the safe places with a threat as well.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting.
- 38:51 – 41:42
Are you healing when things that bothered you no longer do
- APAlex Partridge
I mean, following on from that, does that mean that if you're able to forget about something that you were upset about, could that be a sign of progress?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Yes, 1000%. If you're able to hear a change in tone, um, and not feel dysregulated in that moment, that means that your nervous system is doing something very different than before. Um, a lot of people that have this attachment fear that other people will start to reject them if there's a tone shift likely have had most of their past experiences, uh, laced with moments where that was true, right? When they were their true selves. But a lot of people that I work with that actually come to change this and start to feel a lot better are the people that have first noticed the cyclical maladaptive patterns in their life. They see that when, um, oh, wait a minute, I notice tone shifts in other people. I get nervous. I recreate the rejection experience. Like they notice that, and then they engage in these specific behaviors that allows them to undo that narrative. So if the nervous system is something that learns based on experience, then it's very important that you start to give your nervous system very new experiences that will allow it to be proven wrong. And so if you have a certain attachment style or if you're afraid of rejection, you notice tone shifts, there's lots of things you can practice specifically-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... that can prevent you from getting those negative experiences.
- APAlex Partridge
And if we just go a little bit deeper there, if anxiety, masking, people pleasing, perfectionism, has been part of your coping mechanism for decades, is there a risk that after you strip all of that back, you don't know what's underneath?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
You won't necessarily lose yourself. You'll only become a more effective version. And, and also you'll reap the benefits of those coping strategies. So, so a lot of people will feel as though, "I've been coping my whole life. I, uh, grew up with a, a..." I have a story of someone that grew up with a, a narcissistic parent, right? And they said, "Well, well, I, I really wish that I had an easier childhood and that I didn't have all these experiences being gaslit my whole life, but I had to learn how to ration with the narcissist that is an expert at manipulating reality. I had to learn how to almost gaslight myself in the opposite direction so that I could return to reality," right? And healing, though, for them, I- it really meant really getting to a place where they realize, "I have been living life with extremely big weights on, ankle weights, a, a weighted backpack, and I've learned how to do this." So you are underneath that weight, and now you get to take it off-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... but you won't lose who you are because now you've got extremely strong muscles. [laughs] You know? You, you now can be very perceptive at detecting reality, and, uh, you might go on to, um, help people that have been in the same place you've been in.
- APAlex Partridge
You've mentioned narcissism twice there, Jay. I wanna just double click on that for a moment. Like, the personality type that comes with
- 41:42 – 47:37
Healing from narcissistic abuse
- APAlex Partridge
typically being autistic or ADHD, does that make you more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
I think, I think, um, it makes you both vulnerable to narcissistic abuse, but it also can make you a really good, um, fighter against it, you know? Because a lot of people with autism, ADHD, you've experienced, um, a lot of people telling you that the way you interpret reality is wrong.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
And so- People who have healed, you know, with, uh, neurodivergence have come to challenge those beliefs, and they've learned that I need to make sure that I'm, um, you know, really testing reality to make sure that I'm accurate about it. But the reason that it makes you more susceptible without having realized that is because with ADHD and autism, you're some of the people that are more leaning into reality. You mean what you say, you know? You, you would never oftentimes make someone believe something that wasn't true because you know how much it hurts to be, uh, told a lie. But the reason it's dangerous for someone with ADHD or autism to be with someone who's, uh, narcissistic is that they have something you don't, which is audacity. Um, if you're someone who's narcissistic, you're comfortable sitting in front of a courtroom with a flashy suit on, even if you did the crime, and the, the victim can say, "This person did this awful thing to me." And as a narcissist, you can smile and say, like, "Why? I would never do something like that."
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
The person who has neurodivergence is completely on the opposite end of that spectrum, where guilt and shame is more of the language you've learned to speak. So you might even go on to believe, like, "Well, I would never cry like that unless I actually did something wrong."
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
"I would never laugh like that if I had accidentally hurt someone by mistake." In fact, you have this fear of hurting people walking around all the time. So you might assume this narcissist is innocent.
- APAlex Partridge
Have you ever heard of Kintsugi?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
No, I haven't.
- APAlex Partridge
Kintsugi, it's a Japanese art form where if they break a bowl or a glass or anything fragile, rather than taking all the individual pieces and putting them in the bin, they put them all back together with gold, and the end plate or the end bowl looks absolutely magnificent. A- and in fact, in many cases, it looks more beautiful than it did before the breakage actually happened, and I feel like there's a parallel there to human healing. So many people have got the scars that they are left with and that remind them of the process of healing that they've been through, and a lot of people feel a lot of shame and guilt about having those scars. But I think actually having those scars is a reminder of, of what you've been through, and in many cases, it makes you a more beautiful human being than you were before you had the need to go through the healing process.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Wow. I mean, that's a beautiful analogy because it's just so relatable to people who experience trauma. Um, some of those wounds that hurt so much in the past can go on to be symbols of, of ways of moving forward, you know? And I imagine a lot of people with ADHD have experienced this, this-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... shame, this feeling of being off, being different, and they've come to learn that I need to figure out how to cope with this. And, and the regulated nervous system for somebody with ADHD is so powerful because once you start to unlock a lot of the interventions that can be very helpful, and you start to navigate life, and that change in tone doesn't sound so vicious, you know? You can start to use those gifts of hyperfocus so, so that you can create new realities that you've already envisioned in your mind to begin to communicate with a lot of the people that feeling, you know. So it's just, it's just a very beautiful picture. Looking at the gold, I think-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... is, is, uh, I think my favorite part because you can... tho- those, those things that once hurt can now shine.
- APAlex Partridge
Absolutely. You've spoken to a lot of people, J, I imagine, in, in the space, and have you ever met someone, or have you ever seen someone meet themselves for the first time when they're speaking to you in, in the therapy room?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
I have, yes. Um, there's, there's this one story of this, um, this guy. He had this, this deep feeling of, um, you know, shame that was just so under the radar that, uh, no one could detect it, you know? And, and he couldn't either, either. And his shame made him want to put himself in a box and not exist in a lot of spaces in the world. So in order to, to deal with that, he would hide all of his problems. Um, there was even a time where, um, he didn't wanna play sports and, uh, even though his family wanted him to, and so he tried to, uh, force an injury, you know, in order to not play anymore. Um, and, and it was just really quite sad when they're, they're telling these stories, not realizing how sad these past events were, but in the moment with me, realizing, like, it's really sad that you felt like your only way out of doing something you really didn't want to was pushing your foot against the desk to injure yourself so that you didn't have to play anymore. What's that about? And that moment of connecting with, wow, there was a young version of me, a child, that was so afraid, my nervous system was so afraid of what could go wrong-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
... I was willing to try and hurt... And it didn't occur to me that there was a possibility to do anything else different, you know? And then once we came to see that person, we're like, "We wanna just embrace and bring that person to light." And, and that, I think, was a huge moment for me. Uh, just, just chills even thinking about how that person was able to see you are worth existing.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Unfiltered, without thinking. Um, that, that's a healthy nervous system, one that is going to still run from threats, but also one that's gonna be willing to be themselves and to work towards, um, just, just shining in the right spaces.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow, what a story. Just before we get to the letter, J, and with that in mind,
- 47:37 – 48:49
Advice for anyone who’s trying to heal
- APAlex Partridge
the story, what would you say to someone who has spent their whole life believing that they're too sensitive, too emotional, too lazy, or simply too much?
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
I would say that there's been a story told about you all the way back in childhood that never actually started with you. It started with a problem in your environment, an environment that didn't understand that these gifts that you've had were things that were always meant to be blossoming into the world. Um, but, but there's some message that you got early on, it did not start with you, that you became too sensitive, that you felt too sensitive, you felt too much. It was always your environment that wounded you- And the festering of the wounds are now what's causing a lot of the problems in the world for you today. So these wounds often aren't treated, especially with neurodivergence. Um, a lot of people with ADHD can feel like they're too much, but part of the reason you feel that way is because, um, you were sold that story before you even knew it was true.
- APAlex Partridge
Unbelievable. Gosh. And very well said. [laughs] I just wanna deliver to you a letter, Jay, uh, that was written by the previous guest. Every guest writes a letter to their younger self, and then I deliver it to the guest today, which is yourself. There we
- 48:49 – 50:40
A letter to my younger self
- APAlex Partridge
go, Jay.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
"Dear younger me, I wish I could come back and find you before you learned to watch everyone's face when you walked into a room, before a change in someone's voice meant you'd done something wrong, before you became so good at reading everyone else that you forgot how to read yourself. I know you think you're too sensitive. You're not. I know you think you're lazy because you can't make yourself do things everyone else seems to do so easily. You're not. And I know you wonder why being you seems to require so much effort. One day you'll understand. You'll realize that fear became fuel. Anxiety got you out of bed. Rejection taught you to people please. Feeling different taught you to mask. And somewhere along the way, you became so busy becoming the person you thought everyone needed you that you lost sight of yourself. I'm sorry for calling you lazy when you were overwhelmed. I'm sorry for forcing you to keep going when you were exhausted. I'm sorry for spending so many years trying to fix you, because you were never the problem. One day you won't have to monitor every room. You won't turn every silence into rejection. You won't have to earn love by being impressive, successful, or easy to be around. And without the anxiety, the masking, and the need to prove yourself, you might look in the mirror and think, 'Who am I now?' But that's not you losing yourself. That's us finally meeting. I spent half my life trying to make you less sensitive. Now I realize your sensitivity was never something I needed to get rid of. It was something I needed to protect. So you can stop trying so hard now, little mate. I'll take it from here, and this time I'm not going to leave you behind."
- APAlex Partridge
Wow. Wow. Beautifully read as well.
- JADr. Jacob Ambrose
Chills.
- APAlex Partridge
On behalf of everybody grappling to understand their brain, Jay, thank you very much. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 50:40
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