ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Expert: The 'Darts' Hack That Makes Female ADHD Easier! It's really simple.
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
20 min read · 4,363 words- 0:00 – 2:35
Hannah’s mission
- APAlex Partridge
What's your mission within the world of ADHD?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
So my story begins with my very first ADHD client who I had. I was just out of graduate school, and he was in elementary school, and at the time we didn't know that he had ADHD. And his parents came to me and they said, "Fix him." And I said, "Okay." And he didn't seem broken to me. He was this cute kid, and he was calling out in class, he was missing his deadlines, he was fighting with his parents because of homework. And we sat down together and I said to him, you know, "Look, so and so, you know, what, what's your experience here?" And he told me, and he said that it's very difficult for him to pay attention in class, and that he's fighting with his parents, and his teacher's giving him bad grades. And as we spoke, it became very clear to me that this was not the defiant kid that he had been made out to be, that he was actually quite bright and quite capable, but he was having difficulty because of these executive functioning skills that he could not harness. So after some time of working together, we identified some strategies and tools that were going to be helpful to him, and Alex, he took off. He became successful, his grades went up, the, the fighting went down in the cl- in, at home, um, actually developed a nice relationship with the teacher. And to be a part of that process, uh, to be squarely in his corner and to be s- you know, supporting him and rooting him on, was quite a privilege, and I was sold. And my mission in this field is to do something similar. It's to work with the people who come into my office, whether you're a child or whether you're an adult, and help them to understand their profile, and help them to understand why things are difficult for them, and what they can do to kind of outsmart themselves and, um, set themselves up for success, and to remind them that everybody brings something to the table. You know, we all have positive attributes as much as we have difficulties, and to remind them that they have theirs, and let's capitalize on those.
- APAlex Partridge
It's an amazing mission and an amazing success story.
- 2:35 – 4:20
The emotional toll of undiagnosed ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think the emotional toll is on someone who might struggle with executive dysfunction and never get the strategies that help them find their way through?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
It can be devastating. I mean, at, at its worst, you have people who are more prone to, uh, suicide, to, uh, substance and alcohol abuse. So that's the extreme end of it, but then there's also challenge that comes with having relationships because many people are constantly disappointing their spouses. You know, your husband, wife, partner says to you on your way home, "Don't forget to pick up X, Y, and Z for dinner." Well, you come home, but you forgot the X, Y, and Z for dinner-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- HBHannah Bookbinder
... so now you're gonna have cereal and milk for dinner.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. [laughs]
- HBHannah Bookbinder
But then after a while, those incidents sort of stack up. Because of that disappointment, they can count on the fact that you're going to disappoint them. Uh, it translates into difficulties in school. People are more prone to failing out or to, you know, having difficulty with their grades and performance. Uh, college and university-age individuals frequently will drop out or take a pause and be forced to do that, and then there's also challenges that come with maintaining a job.
- APAlex Partridge
And I suppose if you do present in that behavior, it might expose you to comments like, "You're lazy."
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
"You're unmotivated, you're unreliable." I'm sure most of our listeners and viewers will have, at some point, been called lazy because of the executive function challenges that come with having a busy brain that, that rarely switches off.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Correct.
- 4:20 – 5:37
Why people think ADHD people are lazy
- APAlex Partridge
Why do you think people with ADHD are wrongly called lazy, unreliable, or un- unmotivated?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Because I think that unless you've worked with a neurodivergent population, you don't have an appreciation for the intricacies and the nuances of this disorder, and I think that it's very easy for us as a society to slap a label on something that we don't understand. So it's not unique to the neurodivergent population that we're s- oversimplifying things and calling people lazy, defiant, difficult, unmotivated. Um, you know, any- anything that we don't understand, we just sort of categorize it as what we think that it is, and then we can move on.
- APAlex Partridge
It seems to be that many people with ADHD experience an odd perception of time, and we had Dr. Ned Hallowell explain that people with ADHD, they're either in the now-
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Uh-huh
- APAlex Partridge
... or they're in the not now, and this creates a really amplified version of out of sight, out of mind. Like, if something isn't in your immediate proximity, you can quite literally forget that it exists.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
It's why I've really struggled to remember to reply to text messages sometimes, or I joke about it, but it's why I forget to empty my washing machine, because as soon as I leave the machine or I l- put- close my phone, that task just disappears from my memory.
- 5:37 – 8:00
The ‘out of sight out of mind’ effect
- APAlex Partridge
How big do you think the concept of out of sight, out of mind is within the ADHD community?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
I think it's huge. I mean, you're talking about the working memory. So when you have situations where parents, this is a very common challenge that we talk about in my office, Mom and Dad said to me that I need to go upstairs, I need to pick up my room, brush my teeth, and bring my uniform down for the soccer game.They went upstairs, they kind of circled around, and then they came back down again. Was the room clean? No.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Were the teeth brushed? No, you can tell from the smell of their breath. And they obviously don't have their uniform either on or in their possession. So unless in the, in that type of a situation it's like in their face going off, it's very difficult for them to remember that. And it's, it just, it saturates almost every part of their lives.
- APAlex Partridge
There is humor to be found in relatability. I share the washing machine story and people laugh because they think, "Well, I do that, too," and I think it makes them feel less alone. But how can out of sight, out of mind, other executive function challenges scupper the progression of people's lives in a manner of all forms?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
It goes back to what we were talking about earlier, and if ... It, it affects everything. It, from school performance to your performance in, at work to your relationships. I mean, think about how many times people disappoint others in those different roles that they have, and the implications that come with that. So if I'm an employee and my boss has asked me to do something and it's very important because there's this big project that's about to take place and I fall through on mine, and everything was, you know, contingent upon my following through, I'm probably gonna lose my job. And my boss is gonna lose that opportunity to have had that project take place, and then therefore get the business. The school, it's difficult because I didn't, uh, you know, follow through with my group, and now they're going to suffer the consequences of that choice, and it's really not fair because all of them, they rose to the occasion and they did what they needed to do.
- APAlex Partridge
At school and in the big, bad world,
- 8:00 – 10:39
Feeling guilty for thinking differently
- APAlex Partridge
do you think people with ADHD are made to feel guilty about not being able to think in this very linear and disciplined way that many neurotypical people seem to be able to do with such ease?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes. Because again, they don't get it. They don't understand why you're starting at A and not ending directly at B, and they are made to feel guilty. Uh, either because of their own, you know, high expectations that they have of themselves, or because the rest of the world is saying, "You screwed up. You didn't follow through. What's wrong with you? It's not that difficult. All you have to do is try harder."
- APAlex Partridge
I feel like people with ADHD can be tremendously good and effective and focused in times of real crisis, but often it's, it's the little things that can overwhelm us. Why do you think people with ADHD are easily overwhelmed by, by, by small things, things that maybe neurotypical people might be able to do without getting overwhelmed?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
When you're in a crisis, that dopamine is flowing, free flowing, and you can, and that dopamine helps with focus and being able to think things through and troubleshoot.
- APAlex Partridge
I think it's fascinating because as we know, people with ADHD have a deficit of or a deficiency of dopamine and noradrenaline. So when we are in a point of crisis, we release adrenaline, and that almost takes us up to a base level where we're able to focus. Where a neurotypical person who might have a regular level of noradrenaline already, when they face a crisis and then they release further adrenaline, it sends them into a panic.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
But the ADHD person, that extra adrenaline just baselines us.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Right.
- APAlex Partridge
And we're able to focus and navigate our way to the solution. Well, you've worked really closely with people with ADHD. Going back to the guilt of feeling different and not thinking in a linear way, what can that do to someone's self-esteem?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
I think that it can chip away at it, you know, repeatedly over and over and over again to the point where you're lacking confidence in so much of what it is that you do, and it, it leaves you questioning the next time you need to be able to do something. And it could be related to what it is that we're talking about, or it could be completely unrelated. But after a while, you start to believe, you develop this inner narrative that, "I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna screw up, and so what's the point?"
- 10:39 – 11:23
Do ADHD people suffer in silence
- APAlex Partridge
Do you see a lot of people with ADHD suffering in silence?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Absolutely. Because I think that masking is a very big part of neurodivergence because of the shame that's involved, because they want to be able to present to the world as somebody who has it together, who can meet the standards of what it is that the world has expected them to do, what their loved ones, their teachers, their, uh, colleagues and bosses want them to do.
- APAlex Partridge
I think it goes back to the famous well-used swan analogy, that people with ADHD, they're so good at masking, they, people see the, the brilliance and the beauty of the swan on the lake, but they don't see the legs frantically flapping underneath the surface, desperately keeping them above water.
- 11:23 – 12:43
Tiimo advert
- APAlex Partridge
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- HBHannah Bookbinder
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think that does to people's self-worth?
- 12:43 – 15:27
The ‘Darts bullseye' hack
- HBHannah Bookbinder
So Alex, I have this metaphor that, um, somebody close to me gave to me at one point, and it's the target. So within the target, you, at the center of it, you have the bullseye, and then you have the rings that come out from there. And in the bullseye are where the nearest and dearest people are located in your life, and those are the people who are supposed to be your people, your people who understand you, who support you, who love you no matter what. And when the people in your bullseye don't understand you and don't appreciate who you are and judge you as a result of what they perceive you to be, and in this case, it's ADHD, but they don't understand the nuances that come with ADHD, that's devastating. You know, how are you supposed to explain to your nearest and dearest who are supposed to get you that, "I am not what you think that I am. This is who I am. It's a part of who I am." It's like, uh, somebody who f- for example, is asthmatic. Would you judge somebody because they couldn't breathe well on their own and they need to have a nebulizer or an inhaler? No. It's just a part of who they are, and ADHD is just the same. You know, this, this is what is a part of the fabric of who they are. We all have something that's the fabric of who we are, and so let's figure this out together. And when the family doesn't understand that, you know, I have families who come in and they say, "Well, he can sit there for five hours and play video games," you know? Well, of course he can. The dopamine, it's, you know, firing is, is taking place on a regular basis, but f- it's different. It's a different type of mental energy and power that you need to sit down for five, uh, for the same five hours to write a research project or to create the pitch that you're gonna give to your boss. It's just not as intriguing. So I think that we really have to work with our families and the people who are in that bullseye area to better understand the individual so they can better, um, support them. And, you know, that's part of why I wrote my book, was to help parents and the coaches and the teachers who work with these kids on a regular basis to understand what it's like to walk a mile in their footsteps.
- APAlex Partridge
And people with ADHD as well, particularly women, can be misunderstood by their doctors.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
I mean, how many people have, were, were misdiagnosed with an anxiety disorder before there was any conversation that actually ADHD might be the underlying issue here?
- 15:27 – 16:01
The link between ADHD and anxiety
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
But do you think ADHD can manifest itself as anxiety or depression?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes, I think that it can. I think that, you know, the diagnoses of depression and anxiety are very common comorbid, uh, comorbid diagnoses, um, either as primary diagnoses or as secondary to the diagnosis of ADHD. I mean, if you think about it, all the things that we're talking about today, it's, it's understandable why people who are neurodivergent would experience depression and anxiety.
- 16:01 – 17:42
How overwhelm shows up silently
- APAlex Partridge
And overwhelm is a huge topic. Um, how do you think overwhelm can present itself in someone silently? W- perhaps no one else sees it, but it's an internal battle that they're contending with. And also, how can it present itself outwardly that might impact those near them?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
So if you're presenting an internal representation of overwhelm, then you will see people who have completely withdrawn themselves. They have isolated themselves from their loved ones, from their teachers, from coworkers. Uh, there's a lot of inner dialogue that obviously we're not privy to, with shame. Um, "You're screwing up again," and, "Why can't you get it together?" And then externally, people might, uh, present as being very aggressive. They lash out. You're noticing that they might be turning in their assignments late. They're not meeting deadlines of other kinds. They're seemingly disorganized. Everything is scattered about.
- APAlex Partridge
It's huge, isn't it? I, I've, I've always said it's like those highly caffeinated squirrels in, in your head.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Like, each one pulling you in a different direction-
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes
- APAlex Partridge
... a different idea, but no one sees them.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Right.
- APAlex Partridge
No one sees that internal battle that you're contending with, and it's no surprise then that some days you're completely overwhelmed to the point that you can't move. The physical paralysis kicks in. You're rendered unable to move, can't do anything other than scroll social media, and then of course, that exposes you to the comments we said earlier, like, "Why are you so lazy?"
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
"Why can't you just start the task?"
- HBHannah Bookbinder
That's a terrible cycle.
- APAlex Partridge
Which is heartbreaking.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- 17:42 – 19:42
How to hack dopamine
- APAlex Partridge
How can we hack our dopamine system to get boring jobs done, to get over that overwhelm?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
One of my favorite things to do after, you know, working with a client to help them to develop a sense of awareness is to use that sense of awareness to kind of gamify things. So maybe you do something like play Beat the Clock. If you think that, uh, it's gonna take you about 10 minutes to do said project or assignment or task, then set your timer for 10 minutes and see if you can beat the clock. The other piece that you can do to play with time is to guesstimate how long it's gonna take you. So I think that it's gonna take me, you're talking about laundry, it's gonna take me 30 minutes to fold these four loads of laundry that I have to do, and I'm not gonna play Beat the Clock, but I'm just gonna do it so that maybe the next time I have four loads of laundry that I have to fold, I'm gonna beat that time, and I'm also gonna see if I was correct in my estimation. So not only in that situation are you kind of gamifying the project, but you're also devel- helping yourself to develop a sense of time. Um-The other ways that you can sort of have tasks become a little bit easier is to kind of position the things that you need. So for example, if you need to feed your dog, then if you had a place in a drawer where you could put the, the kibble and anything else that you need for the, the dog, and you put the bowl on top of it, when it's time to feed the dog, you've already kind of outsmarted yourself and supported yourself by put- making everything located in one spot. So all you have to do is open the drawer, pour the kibble, and Fifi can have her lunch
- APAlex Partridge
Hannah,
- 19:42 – 22:18
Hannah’s ADHD item
- APAlex Partridge
I want to move on to my favorite part of the show, which is called the ADHD Item section. Every guest brings in an item that represents ADHD, and yours has been patiently waiting underneath this cloth.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Wonderful.
- APAlex Partridge
I'm going to reveal it now.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
There we go. I mean, what is that, and why does it represent ADHD?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
This is a shape sorter, and very often when I'm talking with either my clients or the parents if my client is a child, I talk with them about how we are constantly trying to take this kid and shove him or her in a spot that is not right for them. We're taking the wrong shape peg and putting it in the wrong shape hole. And so a shape sorter is sort of representative of that struggle and that difficulty, and when my clients come to me and they get the understanding of who they are and we develop and take these strategies and skills that empower them, they can take the onus of figuring out their shape and finding the correct hole that they need to go into. And by doing that, the inside of this shape sorter is representative, is representative of the community of their people, where they belong together and they understand and appreciate and can celebrate their, their talents and their gifts, and to support each other with the areas where they need to have the support.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. Amazing representation. I feel like too many people with ADHD are squares, and they try to make themself a circle.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
And of course, I guess the consequence is a battered self-esteem-
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Absolutely
- APAlex Partridge
... low self-awareness. Um, finding your tribe is huge, right?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Finding community, recognizing that all of, for all of these years, you have been a circle, and the, the masking has been such a, a bad use of energy because it's so exhausting pretending to be someone that you're not.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Completely. And that's not to say either by the way, Alex, that just because you find that microcosm that you fit into doesn't mean that you can't broaden your horizons and go into other areas. But as long as you have that group, that, that bullseye of people that we were talking about to support you and understand you, and s- that serves as your foundation, then you're gonna be golden.
- 22:18 – 25:29
Audience questions
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna move on, Hannah, to audience questions.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
And it's in a washing machine.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
And the section's called Washing Machine of Woes because the audience writes in their woes, ADHD woes, and it's a washing machine because my ADHD item is, is a washing machine-
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes
- APAlex Partridge
... because it represents memory loss for me. 'Cause I always leave my clothes in the machine after the cycle's finished, and I do ask everyone, do you relate to that?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
I do relate to that because I can get very busy, and so sometimes what I do is I will... Our, our, um, washing machine and dryer are downstairs in the basement in our, in our laundry room, so I will either leave the light on to the basement or maybe I'll put the laundry basket outside the door to trigger that memory. So I can, I can understand.
- APAlex Partridge
I've been using the Tiimo app, which has helped me remember, and I'm getting better. Do you have any tips, tricks that help you with working memory?
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Uh, I have my app, yes.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Um, my Toad app helps to remember things that need to be done with some of the tools that are in there, and I think that also, you know, having a list that I can refer to is something that's really helpful to sort of keep me on target.
- APAlex Partridge
Brilliant. This week, Hannah, someone has written in anonymously and asked, "I get RSD flare-ups," that's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, "with the most slight thing. Like, I asked my boss for a meeting the other day and he replied, 'Fine,' with a full stop at the end, and I'm sure now he will fire me. Why is RSD so strong, and do other people experience it physically like I do?"
- HBHannah Bookbinder
RSD is, as William Dodson, um, has, has pointed out, it's the neurological... It's a, it's a neurological, emotional component of ADHD. So it is very tied to the ADHD diagnosis, and I think that unfortunately because people are told so often that they are screwing up, that they're failing, that they're, you know, disappointing X, Y, and Z people, that there's a sensitivity that develops as a result of that. And, um, the, that physical experience of the RSD is a very common feature that comes with it for people who are neurodivergent. So it's very real. It's not to be considered, y- you know, some people, again, i- if you wanna talk about labeling, are labeled as being too sensitive, and they should just get over it, and it's not a big deal. But it is a big deal, and I think that part of helping people who struggle with the aspect of RSD is to support them in that and to process these incidents.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. RSD is brutal, isn't it? I think it's the, it, it is the hardest part of living with ADHD, I think. It's like a constant state of feeling like you're gonna let someone down.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes. And it's very predictable, 'cause you can know which instances it's going to-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- HBHannah Bookbinder
... show up, but it's often masked because, uh, people don't want to show the public that they're feeling as overwhelmed and hurt and disappointed as they feel.
- 25:29 – 26:21
A letter to my younger self
- HBHannah Bookbinder
So, you know, a lot of times people don't understand. They, they don't even recognize that an individual's experiencing this.
- APAlex Partridge
Hannah, this has been truly fascinating. I want to finally deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest to their younger self.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
That sounds wonderful. I'd be happy to do that. To my younger self. Hello, darling. Lots and lots of love. I am so sorry things feel so tough. This too shall pass. Now is not forever. Keep seeing the world with joy and enthusiasm. There is so much good everywhere, however much it may seem otherwise. Keep finding the light. Keep moving forwards. All my love, you.
- APAlex Partridge
Really nice.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
That's lovely.
- APAlex Partridge
What a lovely note to end on.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
Really appreciate you making the trip, Hannah.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
My pleasure.
- APAlex Partridge
Thank you so much.
- HBHannah Bookbinder
Thank you. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 26:22
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Transcript of episode 5RKkKm8a6U0
