Bestselling ADHD author reveals dangers of late AuDHD diagnosis | Pete Wharmby

1. 0:00 – 2:29

   Trailer

   1. PWPete Wharmby0:00

      The stakes of masking autism is, is way higher, in my experience, than ADHD. I can get away with being a bit overzealous and over-enthusiastic in a conversation and interrupting or, you know, being forgetful, being disorganized. I can get away with that without really bad things happening. Whereas openly stimming, you can't get away with that.

   2. APAlex Partridge0:19

      Peter Wharmby is a bestselling author and AuDHD specialist. An award-winning expert in the field. He's on a mission to raise awareness- For the struggles experienced by those with ADHD and autism

   3. PWPete Wharmby0:29

      Autism and ADHD are perhaps two sides of the same coin. So we know they're related, but we don't know exactly how. Now, it might be that monotropism is the coin. Non-autistic, neurotypical people are polytropic. They can pay attention to multiple things at once without any real hassle. Whereas monotropic people, like autistic people-

   4. APAlex Partridge0:50

      Mm

   5. PWPete Wharmby0:50

      ... have a tendency or are wired to pay attention to one thing at a time at great depth.

   6. APAlex Partridge0:56

      Do you think there's a risk that problem-solving ability of people with AuDHD could make them vulnerable when they're depressed?

   7. PWPete Wharmby1:04

      Part of you is always compromising in a way that it really doesn't want to.

   8. APAlex Partridge1:10

      Loyal listeners and viewers, I can't thank you enough for tuning in to ADHD Chatter, where we ask world-leading ADHD experts the hard questions, to give you access to the most cutting-edge information on the topic. If you've ever felt broken or different, I hope this helps in your search for information, answers, and community. And do you know what would really help me in return? By clicking the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. It might not seem like much, but at ADHD Chatter, it means a huge deal, and with this, I can book more incredible guests and keep the self-discovery fire alive for all of us, including myself. Just one click of a button goes a lot further than you think. We'll promise to listen to your feedback and book the guests you want on topics that matter to you. And remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Pete, thank you so much for joining us today.

   9. PWPete Wharmby2:05

      Ah, thank you.

   10. APAlex Partridge2:07

       Welcome to the ADHD Chatter studio. Thank you so much for making the trip down.

   11. PWPete Wharmby2:10

       Yeah, it's, it's brilliant. It's, it's a, it's a very colorful and cheerful space, which makes me very happy, actually. It's, it's really nice.

   12. APAlex Partridge2:17

       All of the previous guests' items are on display behind us. Uh-

   13. PWPete Wharmby2:21

       Yeah

   14. APAlex Partridge2:21

       ... and I'm excited to unravel and reveal yours later on.

   15. PWPete Wharmby2:25

       [laughs] Yes.

   16. APAlex Partridge2:26

       Um, but first, Pete, just to set the foundation for the episode,

2. 2:29 – 10:32

   Pete’s mission in the neurodiversity world

   1. APAlex Partridge2:29

      what is your mission in the world of neurodiversity?

   2. PWPete Wharmby2:34

      Um, i- it's always been the same really. Ever since I was diagnosed, and I, uh, found the community online and realized [laughs] just how many of us were struggling. You know, I'm autistic and ADHD, and many people I know are as well. And, you know, the, the rates of depression, anxiety, unemployment... I mean, not that employment is the be all and end all, but it, it does help. Um, all those kind of things, suicidality, you know, don't wanna get too heavy too quickly, but they're all really high.

   3. APAlex Partridge3:01

      Mm.

   4. PWPete Wharmby3:01

      But, you know, and, and they have been for a very long time. We've been let down, I think, as a population, uh, generally speaking. And so I kind of, as a teacher, I got it into my head that what I wanted to do was to get people to understand that this, this existed, you know? [laughs] That, that people share a world with people who have brains that work in a really different way-

   5. APAlex Partridge3:25

      Mm

   6. PWPete Wharmby3:26

      ... but who the world is not calibrated for at all. You know, everything in the world that we see, society and structures and systems, they're all calibrated for this very particular type of brain, and if you don't fit in with that, then you're gonna find it really hard.

   7. APAlex Partridge3:42

      Mm.

   8. PWPete Wharmby3:42

      So I took it upon myself, I guess, over a period of about five years or so, to just try and get that information out there. You know, just, just like a voice kind of [laughs] barking into the world, you know.

   9. APAlex Partridge3:54

      [laughs]

   10. PWPete Wharmby3:54

       Please listen.

   11. APAlex Partridge3:55

       Mm.

   12. PWPete Wharmby3:55

       You know, there, there are so many different types of brain, and we, we need your help. So, you know, ever since then, I, you know, social media, started on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and written a couple of books, and I do talks and speeches at people these days, and it's all there, my mission to just try and get this information out there.

   13. APAlex Partridge4:14

       Mm.

   14. PWPete Wharmby4:14

       'Cause, like, I guess I fundamentally naively believe that people, if they knew about this, would want to help, hopefully.

   15. APAlex Partridge4:25

       Mm.

   16. PWPete Wharmby4:25

       Um, and so I naively kind of hope that-

   17. APAlex Partridge4:28

       [laughs]

   18. PWPete Wharmby4:28

       ... if I tell people this, then they'll be like, "Oh. Oh, okay," you know?

   19. APAlex Partridge4:31

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. PWPete Wharmby4:32

       And just amend things slightly or change things a bit. So yeah, that, that's, [laughs] that's it really.

   21. APAlex Partridge4:36

       It's fascinating. You, I mean, you said you don't wanna get too deep too fast, and you mentioned suicide, but I think-

   22. PWPete Wharmby4:41

       Yeah

   23. APAlex Partridge4:41

       ... it's, it's... I speak to people in the community who have sometimes ADHD, sometimes autism, a lot of the time both. They're AuDHD. And, and even though they don't go as far as to saying or broaching that topic, you can sense this, this, this sadness within them.

   24. PWPete Wharmby4:57

       Yes. Absolutely.

   25. APAlex Partridge4:57

       Uh, you can see through the mask. You can see the hopelessness sometimes in their eyes. What-

   26. PWPete Wharmby5:03

       Yeah

   27. APAlex Partridge5:03

       ... do, what do you think is the connection between feeling different and having potentially intrusive thoughts like that?

   28. PWPete Wharmby5:10

       I think it's cumulative. I, I, I think that when you're neurodivergent generally, I mean, we'll focus on autism and ADHD here of course, but I think from a very, very, very early age, you recognize how different you are.

   29. APAlex Partridge5:24

       Mm.

   30. PWPete Wharmby5:25

       Um, or, or for different... You realize how little you fit in with the majority. You know, you feel alien. You feel other. We, we know this 'cause we know that autistic people, for example, start masking very early on. You know, nursery school.
3. 10:32 – 17:52

   Early memories of feeling different

   1. APAlex Partridge10:32

      Focusing on your own personal story, Pete-

   2. PWPete Wharmby10:34

      Mm

   3. APAlex Partridge10:34

      ... do you have any early memories of feeling different?

   4. PWPete Wharmby10:37

      Uh, yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah. It's... I, I masked from a very early age, I think, looking back. I always felt like... There's a few bits to it, really. I never felt like I knew what was going on, if that makes sense.

   5. APAlex Partridge10:50

      Yes, it totally does. [laughs]

   6. PWPete Wharmby10:51

      Yeah. I, I, I never... You know, I'm, I'm not a foolish person-

   7. APAlex Partridge10:56

      Mm

   8. PWPete Wharmby10:56

      ... I don't think. You know, I'm, I'm relatively quick and, you know, quick on the uptake, and if somebody is clear with me, I will understand the deal pretty swiftly, you know?

   9. APAlex Partridge11:03

      Mm.

   10. PWPete Wharmby11:03

       But for some reason, all the way through school, and even in work as an adult, you know, when I had a normal job, um, I would so often find myself feeling like I had no idea what was going on. What am I meant to do? Where am I meant to go? I don't know what to do. You know, the anxiety-

   11. APAlex Partridge11:16

       Mm

   12. PWPete Wharmby11:16

       ... would build. I, I never felt like I had a full grasp of what the people around me were doing, what they were going to do, how they worked. People were very confusing to me, even as a very young child. I found them very unpredictable and quite scary. You know, children and adults. You know, teachers who would just snap suddenly and be really angry, and I'd, you know, "Ah, what, what's going on?" And, and kids who would, you know, they'd be your best friend one minute, and then the next minute-

   13. APAlex Partridge11:48

       Mm

   14. PWPete Wharmby11:49

       ... you know, deepest enemies.

   15. APAlex Partridge11:50

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. PWPete Wharmby11:50

       And I just went, [laughs] "I don't know what's happening here." Um, so I never felt like I had the rule book for the social world that everyone else seemed to have kind of ingrained within them. I always felt like I was, you know, like, like, [laughs] you know, back in the '90s when you'd, you'd hire a video game-And if you were lucky, you'd get the instruction booklet.

   17. APAlex Partridge12:07

       Yes. Gosh, taking me back.

   18. PWPete Wharmby12:08

       And that would, you know, you'd be like-

   19. APAlex Partridge12:09

       Nostalgia

   20. PWPete Wharmby12:09

       ... yeah, yeah, from, uh... Yeah, the local-

   21. APAlex Partridge12:11

       Go down the block

   22. PWPete Wharmby12:12

       ... video shop. Yes. And you'd get the instruction booklet, and you'd read it through, if you're anything like me, and, you know, oh, okay, so that's how you do that. But sometimes you'd forget it, and there'd be no-

   23. APAlex Partridge12:20

       Mm

   24. PWPete Wharmby12:20

       ... no booklet. You know, it's been lost to time or whatever, you know, somebody's nicked it. Um, and it, it felt like that for me, that I didn't have this instruction booklet that everyone else seemed to have.

   25. APAlex Partridge12:29

       Mm.

   26. PWPete Wharmby12:29

       And everything was therefore... Even the simplest things were enormously confusing.

   27. APAlex Partridge12:35

       Mm.

   28. PWPete Wharmby12:36

       Um, and everyone else just seemed to be fine, you know, just seemed to get on okay. I mean, obviously they might not have been, you know? You never see what's really going on inside people, but genuinely, people did seem to be pretty-

   29. APAlex Partridge12:48

       Mm

   30. PWPete Wharmby12:49

       ... okay most of the time.
4. 17:52 – 34:57

   How ADHD & Autism can clash

   1. PWPete Wharmby17:52

      Um-

   2. APAlex Partridge17:52

      Having ADHD and autism, being AuDHD, how-

   3. PWPete Wharmby17:56

      Yes

   4. APAlex Partridge17:56

      ... could those two conditions clash within somebody?

   5. PWPete Wharmby18:01

      [laughs] I... Yeah, I- in so many ways. Well, sometimes they clash. Sometimes I feel that they really complement each other. It just seems to depend on the day and the situation. I've read a lot on this, and I've thought about it a lot myself, you know, ever since-... my ADHD diagnosis. I think in some ways they, they do clash. They, they, they do, yes, because my autistic brain, if you like, you know, the au- the autistic side or portion or cells or however it works [laughs] -

   6. APAlex Partridge18:33

      [laughs]

   7. PWPete Wharmby18:33

      ... they want to do things this way.

   8. APAlex Partridge18:35

      Mm.

   9. PWPete Wharmby18:36

      You know, that, that part of me really does want things to be very set down, very clear, very unambiguous. I wanna know what I'm doing before time. I wanna check on Google Maps to know that I'm ma- going exactly the right direction, that, that it's gonna start at this point and finish at this point. You know, I want everything set. But then the other side, like this morning, for example, I had my tube journey from my hotel absolutely set in stone. I knew exactly what I was doing, where I was going, and then at the last minute I thought, "I'm gonna drive." Never driven in Central London in my entire life, but part of me just thought, "No, I need, I need-

   10. APAlex Partridge19:16

       Mm

   11. PWPete Wharmby19:16

       ... I need something different now." I don't know why, and I, to me, I think what happened there was an ADHD part of me in some way that I can't really explain took over-

   12. APAlex Partridge19:26

       Mm

   13. PWPete Wharmby19:27

       ... and wanted an adventure. [laughs]

   14. APAlex Partridge19:28

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   15. PWPete Wharmby19:30

       And, and won. It won, and I drove, and it was fine, but it was a gamble. It was a risk, you know? I mean, it's scary out there. [laughs]

   16. APAlex Partridge19:38

       Yeah. [laughs]

   17. PWPete Wharmby19:38

       I had no idea where to park, but, but for some reason that, that, that thrill-seeking and-

   18. APAlex Partridge19:43

       Mm

   19. PWPete Wharmby19:44

       ... spur of the moment, you know, let's just change our plans all at once, just took over, and yeah, sure, today it worked, but other days it doesn't.

   20. APAlex Partridge19:53

       Mm.

   21. PWPete Wharmby19:53

       Other days it causes all kinds of problems. So I find myself walking this fine line between absolute predictability and total unpredictability.

   22. APAlex Partridge20:03

       Mm.

   23. PWPete Wharmby20:04

       And it's like whichever way I go, I don't win. I can't win because the other part of me is gonna be upset. [laughs]

   24. APAlex Partridge20:10

       Yeah. I suppose the sort of the ADHD impulsivity, wanted adventure, wanted to have fun driving, was there a bit of pushback or resistance to the tube as well because that was a sensitivity, the heat, the noise-

   25. PWPete Wharmby20:23

       There wa- there was

   26. APAlex Partridge20:24

       ... against your autism probably-

   27. PWPete Wharmby20:25

       Yes

   28. APAlex Partridge20:25

       ... pushing the ADHD to, to, to, to act on that impulsivity to drive?

   29. PWPete Wharmby20:30

       I, I think so. I think that was probably the thing that sparked it-

   30. APAlex Partridge20:32

       Yes
5. 34:57 – 36:32

   Tiimo advert

   1. PWPete Wharmby34:57

      of that at this time.

   2. APAlex Partridge34:57

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6. 36:32 – 44:48

   How people with AuDHD experience jealousy and breakups

   1. APAlex Partridge36:32

      Do you think people with AuDHD navigate the landscape of jealousy and relationship endings and breakups differently? Uh, uh, if, if you areObsessed with someone. If someone is your special interest and the thought of that coming to an end, plus somebody else spending time with your ex-

   2. PWPete Wharmby36:54

      Mm

   3. APAlex Partridge36:54

      ... can that be magnified in the mind of someone with AuDHD and potentially p- put that person in a very vulnerable position in that stage?

   4. PWPete Wharmby37:01

      I, I think so. I think so, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I mean, in, in my life I've experienced that a number of times on, on both sides, you know, as both the person who's been left and also the person that has left.

   5. APAlex Partridge37:10

      Mm.

   6. PWPete Wharmby37:11

      And, and yeah, the, the, the, the, the pathways that your brain can go down in those times can be really scary. It's interesting what you said about, you know, a person becoming a special interest, 'cause that is a very distinct thing, I think. You know what I mean? It's one thing having your special interest be, like, you know, Sonic the Hedgehog or-

   7. APAlex Partridge37:30

      [laughs]

   8. PWPete Wharmby37:30

      ... or Thomas the Tank Engine or-

   9. APAlex Partridge37:32

      Mm

   10. PWPete Wharmby37:32

       ... quarries or knitting or whatever. You know, that's one thing. That's, that's, that's fine. But if your special interest is very much a person, and then that person is gone, you're... You've lost... Not only have you lost a relationship, which in itself obviously is harrowing and painful and nearly every human being watching this will know that very well, but you've lost a regulation thing. You've lost a means of self-care, 'cause that's what special interests are.

   11. APAlex Partridge38:00

       Mm.

   12. PWPete Wharmby38:01

       They help us stay grounded, they help us stay calm, and they help us stay relatively happy, for want of a better word. So if that, if that's tied in with a person and then that's gone, then you've lost two th- you know, you've lost two massive things.

   13. APAlex Partridge38:17

       Mm.

   14. PWPete Wharmby38:17

       And I think that that can be truly devastating, absolutely devastating. Um, and again, people won't understand why. You know, you'll get the usual, "Oh, plenty more fish in the sea," or whatever people say, [laughs] and that, that won't cut it-

   15. APAlex Partridge38:35

       Mm

   16. PWPete Wharmby38:35

       ... because you've lost too much. You've lost more than you ever thought you were likely to. Um, and yeah, and that puts an awful lot of pressure on you, and it puts l- you know, a lot of pressure on the other person too, you know, 'cause they're, they're finding themselves in a situation where you can, you can feel very... You know, you're gonna feel very guilty, aren't you?

   17. APAlex Partridge38:55

       Mm.

   18. PWPete Wharmby38:55

       If you know that this is happening but you had to go, you know, the guilt is gonna be all-consuming. So yeah, it's a, [laughs] it's not a topic that I tend to talk about because my [laughs] my lifetime of experience in that particular field-

   19. APAlex Partridge39:10

       [laughs]

   20. PWPete Wharmby39:10

       ... is, is, is, is not great. Um, you know, it's, it's always been a real challenge for me.

   21. APAlex Partridge39:14

       Mm.

   22. PWPete Wharmby39:15

       Um, but yeah, i- you know, it is, it is a very interesting double whammy, I think-

   23. APAlex Partridge39:20

       Mm

   24. PWPete Wharmby39:20

       ... when it happens, for sure.

   25. APAlex Partridge39:23

       Do you think post-breakup, the idea, the hyperfocus, and the way to maybe the autistic ability to repeat a thought, like the thought of somebody else spending time with your ex-

   26. PWPete Wharmby39:37

       Mm

   27. APAlex Partridge39:37

       ... can that be significantly more challenging for someone who is AuDHD than perhaps just a neurotypical person?

   28. PWPete Wharmby39:43

       Yeah, I think so. You know, if you've got the ADHD kind of, you know, re- repeated, you know, thoughts kind of-

   29. APAlex Partridge39:48

       Mm

   30. PWPete Wharmby39:48

       ... repeatedly going, you know, not being able to quiet it down, not being able to get rid of it and move on to something different, that's gonna obviously be very difficult. Because a whole part of moving on from a breakup and a whole part of moving on from any kind of grief, you know, like losing a family member, for example, or a friend, um, is that lessened frequency of thinking about them.
7. 44:48 – 56:40

   The AuDHD RSD Experience

   1. APAlex Partridge44:48

      Pete, has RSD been a big feature in your life?

   2. PWPete Wharmby44:52

      It has, [laughs] yeah. Yeah, rejection sensitivity. It's, um, it's one of the most defining features [laughs] of my life, I would say, because I'm... I, I really, really struggle with it.

   3. APAlex Partridge45:04

      Mm.

   4. PWPete Wharmby45:04

      It's really difficult for me. Any kind of critique, criticism, um, yeah, rejection itself, of course, real or perceived.

   5. APAlex Partridge45:15

      Mm.

   6. PWPete Wharmby45:16

      You know, I will, I will... my, my brain will go completely wild with it. Uh, you know, at work, that was a big thing for me. Um, in, in interpersonal relationships, it's a huge problem. You know, [laughs] as an author, it's a nightmare. I can't even look at my reviews anymore-

   7. APAlex Partridge45:34

      [laughs]

   8. PWPete Wharmby45:34

      ... because, you know, it doesn't matter how many good ones you get-

   9. APAlex Partridge45:37

      Mm

   10. PWPete Wharmby45:38

       ... that m- that has no impact whatsoever. Like, I... you could have... I mean, I don't have this, but, you know, some, some presumably do. You know, you could have, like, 1,000 five-star reviews and one one-star.

   11. APAlex Partridge45:48

       Yes, as that's the one you f- you think about when you're lying in bed.

   12. PWPete Wharmby45:51

       I mean, exactly.

   13. APAlex Partridge45:52

       [laughs]

   14. PWPete Wharmby45:52

       I mean, it's a cliche, but it's real.

   15. APAlex Partridge45:53

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. PWPete Wharmby45:53

       You know? It, the, the, it really does-

   17. APAlex Partridge45:56

       Mm

   18. PWPete Wharmby45:56

       ... haunt you. Um, and, and for me, the ADHD aspect of RSD is not being able to stop thinking about it. Like, you know, I wish that I could check Amazon, click on the reviews, see there was a one star-

   19. APAlex Partridge46:13

       Mm

   20. PWPete Wharmby46:13

       ... feel a bit glum about it, be like, "Oh, for God's sake," and then move on with my day, but I can't. It would haunt me for, well, based on experience, probably about a week or two.

   21. APAlex Partridge46:24

       Mm. And you create stories in your head to reaffirm-

   22. PWPete Wharmby46:28

       Mm-hmm

   23. APAlex Partridge46:29

       ... the thing that's triggered your RSD.

   24. PWPete Wharmby46:31

       Yes, you do. You do.

   25. APAlex Partridge46:31

       Or they... that paragraph I wrote in chapter three was terrible, and that's-

   26. PWPete Wharmby46:34

       Yeah, it must have been that.

   27. APAlex Partridge46:35

       Yeah. [laughs]

   28. PWPete Wharmby46:35

       Or it must have been that, or, you know, or God, God, yeah, it must have been something I've, I've done, or-

   29. APAlex Partridge46:39

       Mm.

   30. PWPete Wharmby46:39

       Uh, and, and yeah, you do. A- and sometimes, and I remember writing about this in my second book, uh, Untypical, I... sometimes your fears, your paranoia about criticism are proven right.
8. 56:40 – 1:09:26

   AuDHD men talking about mental health

   1. APAlex Partridge56:41

      Yeah.

   2. PWPete Wharmby56:41

      You know? Which might help.

   3. APAlex Partridge56:42

      We're two men having an open conversation about RSD here today, emotions, heartbreak.

   4. PWPete Wharmby56:48

      [laughs] It feels quite unusual, doesn't it? [laughs]

   5. APAlex Partridge56:50

      It, it does. I mean, it really does, but it is, it's, it's, it's, it's sad that it feels unusual-

   6. PWPete Wharmby56:54

      Mm. Yeah

   7. APAlex Partridge56:55

      ... because I th- feel like it's not something that I still am comfortable talking about.

   8. PWPete Wharmby56:58

      Yeah.

   9. APAlex Partridge56:58

      And I think many, many men aren't also comfortable talking about. What... Why do you think... It's a big question, but why do you think men aren't as comfortable to talk about emotions?

   10. PWPete Wharmby57:10

       I mean, toxic masculinity affects us all, doesn't it? Whatever that means. This idea of an idealized man, whatever that, that would look like, I think throughout many cultures over history has totally ignored the mental health side of things. You know, if you look at, you know, as a literature student, you know, you look, you look back over stories over the years and, you know, th- the emotional wellbeing of male characters and heroes isn't usually at the top of the tree, you know? I mean, just to be really crass about it, no one cares all that much about how Indiana Jones is feeling-

   11. APAlex Partridge57:49

       Mm

   12. PWPete Wharmby57:49

       ... right now, you know? Maybe that there's that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where he's been beaten up and Karen Allen is kind of gingerly p- patching him up on the ship, you know? And it's very... it's a lovely, quite funny scene. Uh, you know, the, the physical pain is fine. We can deal with that. He's been beaten up. He's bruised. You know, Daredevil covered in bruises, bits of glass. John McClane with glass in his feet.

   13. APAlex Partridge58:10

       Mm.

   14. PWPete Wharmby58:10

       We can deal with that, and we can empathize with that, and that, that story is okay. The story of physical harm and recuperation is something we can all get behind. We can all... We're all happy with that. But the mental equivalent, a male character or a male protagonist or whatever, having emotional depth and feeling, we're not okay with that, I don't think, as a society. We don't value it. We don't care about it all that much.

   15. APAlex Partridge58:41

       Mm.

   16. PWPete Wharmby58:42

       You know, we, we're not all that in tune with it. Um, it is not something that I think we tend to foreground. I think we tend to prefer to put it away. We, we, we don't... As, as men, I don't think we want to admit to it because we don't want to admit weakness because the whole idea of, you know, masculinity is all forged around this concept of strength. You know, strength and power and all this kind of nonsense, and I think that anything that goes against that or suggests that you might have a weakness or a, or a, um, a frailty-

   17. APAlex Partridge59:16

       Mm

   18. PWPete Wharmby59:17

       ... flaw even, is something that we are... Is... I, I mean, I often wonder how much of it is, like, you know, really prehistoric. Like, we have a prehistoric, um, terror of being vulnerable because presumably at some point in our evolutionary history, that was very dangerous. [laughs] You know, like, it would lead to death kind of thing.

   19. APAlex Partridge59:39

       Mm.

   20. PWPete Wharmby59:39

       Um, I d- I don't know. I mean, I'm spitballing very much here, but, but it is a real problem, I think, that we still, even in 2025, associate mental fe- you know, mental health and feelings and emotional states and sadness and grief and woe and, um, all that stuff with, with, with some kind of perceived weakness.

   21. APAlex Partridge59:58

       Mm.

   22. PWPete Wharmby59:58

       That is very impactful in the workplace especially, I think. You know, the cutthroat nature of workplaces, even, even those workplaces that like to pretend that they're not cutthroat. You know, you got, like, the City, which is openly, you know, competitive and cutthroat. But, God, you see it in schools. You see it in hospitals.

   23. APAlex Partridge1:00:16

       Mm.

   24. PWPete Wharmby1:00:16

       They're all the same. They're all deeply competitive places where you've got to, you know, be on the ball all the time, and any kind of... You know, you take a few days off sick, and, "Sorry, mate, you're out. You know, that's not gonna fly here." You know, that's the general gist of society.

   25. APAlex Partridge1:00:29

       Mm.

   26. PWPete Wharmby1:00:29

       You know, you're not allowed these moments of, of vulnerability and, and frailty. Uh, you know, you're off on the scrap heap immediately. You're put out to pasture, I think, um, either, you know, ph- metaphorically or literally.So we all just hide it. We don't wanna let that out. We don't wanna talk about that. I'm in a position, and you presumably too, where the nature of my work is paradoxically one where I'm allowed to open up about it.

   27. APAlex Partridge1:00:53

       Mm.

   28. PWPete Wharmby1:00:53

       You know, I'm kind of almost expected to. [laughs] And, but even then I feel really nervous about doing it.

   29. APAlex Partridge1:00:59

       Mm.

   30. PWPete Wharmby1:00:59

       You know, really kind of anxious about, oh God, you know, who's gonna, what are people gonna think? Like, ooh. Um, and, and yeah, I think the, the societal traditions and societal expectations and things that have been, that have crusted up over hundreds of years are, are the main cause of this. You know, and we need to break through it. We need to clean it off a little bit.
9. 1:09:26 – 1:17:47

   Monotropism explained

   1. PWPete Wharmby1:09:26

      tendencies.

   2. APAlex Partridge1:09:27

      Mm. I've heard you talk about monotropism.

   3. PWPete Wharmby1:09:29

      Yeah, yeah.

   4. APAlex Partridge1:09:30

      Could you explain what monotropism is and what, what purpose do you think it serves or importance in this world?

   5. PWPete Wharmby1:09:36

      In the world, yeah, interesting que- yeah. Well, monotropism is a, is a, is a concept, it's a theory, um, that was put forward by, um, Dr. Dinah Murray back in the late '90s, early 2000s, uh, with Mike Lesser and Wen, uh, Wen, Wen Larson. Wen... Oh, I can't remember names. I do apologize, Wen. I'm awful with names. Hopefully you'll be able to find it when you do some research and just put it in the notes.

   6. APAlex Partridge1:10:01

      [laughs]

   7. PWPete Wharmby1:10:01

      Um, uh, I'm meeting him in Australia in a couple of months, so I need to know his name. [laughs] But anyway, it was put together... But interestingly, it's a theory that was developed by autistic people-

   8. APAlex Partridge1:10:09

      Mm

   9. PWPete Wharmby1:10:10

      ... rather than the historical research which took place by non-autistic people kind of studying us like rats in a cage, you know? [laughs] And this was actually an autistic kind of concept about autism. And, um, what the theory suggests is that autistic brains and possibly AuDHD brains, the, the, the... It seems to be that this is... I often like to describe it as autism and AuDHD are perhaps two sides of the same coin, but we don't know what the coin is-

   10. APAlex Partridge1:10:44

       Mm

   11. PWPete Wharmby1:10:44

       ... if that makes sense. So we know they're related, but we don't know exactly how. Now, it might be that monotropism is the coin, that is the key that links the two ways of being, the two neurodivergences together, and it's all about focus. It's all about attention. It's about how we pay attention to things. And the idea goes that non-autistic, neurotypical people are polytropic. They can pay attention to multiple things at once without any real hassle. You know, it doesn't take any extra effort for them. It's fine. Whereas monotropic people, like autistic people-

   12. APAlex Partridge1:11:21

       Mm

   13. PWPete Wharmby1:11:21

       ... almost certainly AuDHD people, have a tendency or are wired, you know, deeply wired to pay attention to one thing at a time at great depth. So the analogy I always give when I do any talk or speech about this is to imagine that you're lying on the sofa at home, relaxing, reading a good book. You're really engrossed in it, um, and the doorbell rings. Now, if you're polytropic, the likelihood is that you will hear the bell, you will fold... put your book down, fold the page over if you remember to, [laughs] you'll go and answer the door, and you'll get whatever the thing was. And you know, people often, when I talk about this, treat it like a trick question. Like, no, it's that simple. That's what you will do. And they're like, "Well, doesn't everyone do that?" No. [laughs] No, we do not. 'Cause if you're monotropic, your attention is on the book-

   14. APAlex Partridge1:12:15

       Mm

   15. PWPete Wharmby1:12:15

       ... because you're reading the book. The doorbell ringing might not even... You might not even hear it because your attention is so tunnel-focused on the book.

   16. APAlex Partridge1:12:27

       Mm.

   17. PWPete Wharmby1:12:27

       I think, uh, Kieran Rose describes it as like a, a gravity well, like you're pulled into it.

   18. APAlex Partridge1:12:32

       Mm.

   19. PWPete Wharmby1:12:32

       You know? And the doorbell is [laughs] not even gonna factor. Or you might hear it, but not be able to do anything about it. You can't act on it-

   20. APAlex Partridge1:12:43

       Right

   21. PWPete Wharmby1:12:44

       ... because you are stuck in this thing. You can't switch task because it's too hard. You literally can't.

   22. APAlex Partridge1:12:52

       Mm.

   23. PWPete Wharmby1:12:52

       You're on this, that, you c- can't do itSo, you know, the person who's knocked or rung the bell goes away, and whatever happens, happens. And that, that for me is, is a relatively simple way of understanding the difference between the two things. Basically, if you're monotropic, you are able to process information at a tremendous rate, maybe learn very quickly, for example, from whatever you're reading or doing. But the trade-off, if you like, is that you can't switch task.

   24. APAlex Partridge1:13:25

       Mm.

   25. PWPete Wharmby1:13:26

       Whereas a polytropic person might not learn quite so quickly, but at least they can switch task. You know, it's like video game characters, you know? Like, they've all got pros and cons, haven't they? You've got the tanks who are, you know, kinda heavily armored and lots of health-

   26. APAlex Partridge1:13:40

       Mm

   27. PWPete Wharmby1:13:40

       ... but they don't-

   28. APAlex Partridge1:13:41

       They're slow, yeah. [laughs]

   29. PWPete Wharmby1:13:41

       They're very slow. They're very slow, yeah. Or you've got the, the nimble ones, you know-

   30. APAlex Partridge1:13:44

       Mm
10. 1:17:47 – 1:21:33

    Pete’s ADHD item

    1. APAlex Partridge1:17:47

       to you for hours. Um, I'm gonna move the focus back onto your ADHD item-

    2. PWPete Wharmby1:17:51

       Yes

    3. APAlex Partridge1:17:52

       ... though.

    4. PWPete Wharmby1:17:52

       Of course, yes.

    5. APAlex Partridge1:17:52

       Uh, it's been patiently waiting underneath that cloth.

    6. PWPete Wharmby1:17:54

       [laughs]

    7. APAlex Partridge1:17:56

       Yes, and I reveal it now.

    8. PWPete Wharmby1:17:57

       Here we go.

    9. APAlex Partridge1:17:59

       Ta-da. That is a Lego train.

    10. PWPete Wharmby1:18:02

        It is. It is.

    11. APAlex Partridge1:18:03

        Why does a Lego train represent ADHD or AuDHD? Which, which?

    12. PWPete Wharmby1:18:07

        Well, yeah, autism and ADHD really. It represents it in, in a number of ways. Um, th- this is, this is my own. This is my own design. It's one of my special intr- ooh, one of my special interests. See, I'm getting all excited.

    13. APAlex Partridge1:18:19

        [laughs]

    14. PWPete Wharmby1:18:19

        Um, I like to design trains, build them out of Lego because Lego is cool, and also it's a challenge.

    15. APAlex Partridge1:18:26

        Mm.

    16. PWPete Wharmby1:18:26

        So it tickles certain parts of my both autistic and ADHD brain. It tickles my autistic brain because it's problem-solving. It's something that I have to spend a lot of time on. Like, it took me months to figure this out properly-

    17. APAlex Partridge1:18:40

        Mm

    18. PWPete Wharmby1:18:40

        ... you know, to make it work and to make it look the way I wanted it to look, and it's... I mean, it's a very basic train. It's like a, what is it? Like a 0-6-0 steam, um, tank engine. You know, it's about as basic as it comes. But it took ages and ages to figure out all the shapes and things, and that is my happy place. You know, that's my... where I can go into my monotropic flow, you know, just really fixate on it. But it's, for ADHD, it's good because it's a brain quietenerIt just quietens down my brain

    19. APAlex Partridge1:19:09

        Mm

    20. PWPete Wharmby1:19:09

        When I'm building Lego, when I'm thinking about it, it just feels like part of my brain is silenced. I'm not on any medication for my A- ADHD, so I don't know how that feels, but I know from people who are, that when they, when it starts to kick in-

    21. APAlex Partridge1:19:28

        Mm

    22. PWPete Wharmby1:19:28

        ... that they feel like all of a sudden it's very quiet, and they can suddenly get things done. And for me, this is the equivalent.

    23. APAlex Partridge1:19:35

        Mm.

    24. PWPete Wharmby1:19:36

        You know, I get the same, I guess, kind of feeling from it. Um, which is, you know, for somebody who can't get medication at the moment for various reasons, [laughs] is really, really useful. 'Cause sometimes you need that quiet.

    25. APAlex Partridge1:19:48

        Mm.

    26. PWPete Wharmby1:19:48

        You know, you need that, that space to not be overthinking, not have your brain going at 1,000 miles an hour all the time. It's just contemplate. It's very mindful. It's, it's mindfulness really. Um, and that's what this represents for me. I mean, trains and Lego, as people that have read my first book, uh, will know are, are special interests anyway. You know, they're, they're, they're deeply important to me. Um, I mean, the whole first chapter of What I Want to Talk About was dedicated to Lego as a whole, because it is, you know, such a integral part of my life. So I thought it would make sense for me to bring something made of Lego along today.

    27. APAlex Partridge1:20:27

        It's really fascinating. I mean, you say it's basic. I think, I'm sure the, the process to-

    28. PWPete Wharmby1:20:31

        You can't argue

    29. APAlex Partridge1:20:32

        ... the process to make it was far from basic, and I very much doubt that most people would not be able to do what you've done, which is to make something out of nothing.

    30. PWPete Wharmby1:20:40

        Well, it's a, it's a strange thing because, you know, when you're first messing around with it and trying to get the shapes right-
11. 1:21:33 – 1:28:19

    The ADHD agony aunt

    1. PWPete Wharmby1:21:33

       I, I need to keep that. [laughs]

    2. APAlex Partridge1:21:35

       I wanna do the ADHD agony aunt section, Pete.

    3. PWPete Wharmby1:21:38

       Yes, of course.

    4. APAlex Partridge1:21:38

       Um, just penultimately every week the community w- write in with their woes, and it goes in the washing machine of woes because my ADHD item is a washing machine because I always leave my laundry in the machine. Although I have-

    5. PWPete Wharmby1:21:50

       Yes, indeed.

    6. APAlex Partridge1:21:50

       Yeah.

    7. PWPete Wharmby1:21:50

       Yes, that's relatable. [laughs]

    8. APAlex Partridge1:21:53

       Do you, do, how, how often do you leave your laundry in the machine?

    9. PWPete Wharmby1:21:55

       Too often.

    10. APAlex Partridge1:21:56

        Yeah.

    11. PWPete Wharmby1:21:56

        Too often.

    12. APAlex Partridge1:21:57

        Good.

    13. PWPete Wharmby1:21:57

        The, you know, the amount of times you have to rewash it because it's gone-

    14. APAlex Partridge1:21:59

        Yeah. I say good 'cause it's nice to feel like you're not the only one. [laughs]

    15. PWPete Wharmby1:22:01

        Yeah, right. [laughs] It's, it's not objectively good, but it's, [laughs] it's certainly relatable.

    16. APAlex Partridge1:22:04

        Although I have been using the Tiimo app, Pete, which is, has been a tremendous help to help me remember emptying my washing machine.

    17. PWPete Wharmby1:22:09

        Ah, very good. Very good.

    18. APAlex Partridge1:22:11

        This week, Pete, in the washing machine, someone's written in and asked, "Can I keep this anonymous? I'm a 35-year-old male and been diagnosed with AuDHD, but I don't want to discuss it with my friends because I don't want to talk about feelings, but the feeling of being isolated is leading me to suicidal thoughts. What can I do about this, and how can I open up to them and get them to open up to me too?"

    19. PWPete Wharmby1:22:35

        Goodness me. Yeah, what a difficult one. It's very hard. I mean, how do, how do ... [laughs] I say this as somebody who doesn't open up to my own friends very much about this kind of thing, although as we've got older, we've got a bit better at that kind of thing. I think it's about gradation. Take it gently. Often it's probably worth thinking about how much they might want to be doing it, just like you do, but just haven't, like you, got the wherewithal to actually get the ball rolling, you know? We talked earlier, didn't we, about, you know, starting something off gently.

    20. APAlex Partridge1:23:07

        Mm.

    21. PWPete Wharmby1:23:08

        You know, just kind of testing the water, and I think that this is a good example of that, of where that can be a really good method. Because what, what you, what you very really might, very really might find is that once the dam breaks, you know, things will be really different and much better, you know-

    22. APAlex Partridge1:23:28

        Mm

    23. PWPete Wharmby1:23:29

        ... and you'll be able to talk more deeply about things. I think it's certainly worth dipping your toe in and just kind of, maybe you don't wanna come straight out and say, "Hey, everybody, I'm autistic. Ha ha," because as you probably know, people don't know what that means and will have all kinds of preconceptions and stereotypes which you don't want to have to be dealing with. You know, that's, that's really not fun-

    24. APAlex Partridge1:23:49

        Mm

    25. PWPete Wharmby1:23:50

        ... you know, to have to educate them as well. You know, like you come out as something, and you've also got to explain what it means. It's something that a lot of minority groups experience, that, that pressure to educate when you haven't got the energy to do that. You know, why should you? It's not your job. So you might want to hold off on that until you feel like they've maybe got a bit more info on that kind of stuff. Um, but you could at least get the ball rolling on emotions. You know? Can start talking about feelings of isola- I think talking about feelings of isolation in 2025 is actually a fairly natural starting point 'cause don't we all feel that now? You know, you could even couch it just in general, chit-chat about technology, you know, the future, politics, if you talk about that kind of thing. You know, we are all very isolated these days, you know, by, by our work-life balance. You know, start talking about, like, working from home. You know? Get, get the ball rolling in that direction and then segue into-

    26. APAlex Partridge1:24:49

        Mm

    27. PWPete Wharmby1:24:49

        ... feeling isolated, and then segue into, "Well, how do you feel about this? You know, you've ... Does it make you feel a bit miserable?" You know, I mean, British people, we like to always feel like there's a, if you are indeed British, of course, but in this country we, we do like to feel like there is an escape hatch somewhere in any conversation, and we tend to use humor for that.Like, is there a way that we can just bring this down a peg 'cause it's getting a bit heavy?

    28. APAlex Partridge1:25:14

        Mm.

    29. PWPete Wharmby1:25:15

        So somebody will say a joke, or they'll make a jokey comment, and that's natural. Roll with that, I think. You know, I, I, I, I think that that is a natural way that we tend to manage difficult situations. But I think broach it, open it up, see how it... see what their action's like, and then you can gradually start to build up to the bigger things, you know? And like around autism, for example, you know, you might not want to, for very good reason, want to say, "Oh, I'm autistic," but you could at least get the conversation open.

    30. APAlex Partridge1:25:47

        Mm.
12. 1:28:19 – 1:29:43

    The previous guest’s 3 rules to lives by

    1. APAlex Partridge1:28:19

       of our anonymous listener, um, just finally, I want to deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest-

    2. PWPete Wharmby1:28:24

       Okay

    3. APAlex Partridge1:28:24

       ... where they wrote their three rules to live by. I'll deliver that to you, Pete.

    4. PWPete Wharmby1:28:28

       Thank you.

    5. APAlex Partridge1:28:28

       If you could kindly read it out.

    6. PWPete Wharmby1:28:30

       I can. Right. Three rules to live by. Now I've gotta try and read handwriting. Haven't done that for a few years.

    7. APAlex Partridge1:28:37

       [laughs]

    8. PWPete Wharmby1:28:37

       Uh, find something you love and enjoy and gives you purpose in life, preferably something you can do for, do for work. Well, I mean, that's nice if you can monetize it for sure. [laughs]

    9. APAlex Partridge1:28:48

       [laughs]

    10. PWPete Wharmby1:28:48

        Uh, don't underestimate yourself. Oh, that's my hobby, though. That is my hobby.

    11. APAlex Partridge1:28:52

        [laughs]

    12. PWPete Wharmby1:28:52

        Um, you, you have so much more than you realize. Uh, and finally, take a proactive lifelong approach to your physical and mental health. Well, I can't argue with any of those. You know, there, there's wisdom there. Who, who, who was that?

    13. APAlex Partridge1:29:07

        That was Judith Mooring-

    14. PWPete Wharmby1:29:09

        Oh, nice. Nice

    15. APAlex Partridge1:29:09

        ... who was in yesterday, actually.

    16. PWPete Wharmby1:29:11

        Oh, right.

    17. APAlex Partridge1:29:11

        Doing a c- conversation on how the menopause can-

    18. PWPete Wharmby1:29:14

        Ah

    19. APAlex Partridge1:29:14

        ... complicate, uh, the ADHD experience.

    20. PWPete Wharmby1:29:17

        Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. A really important thing. Oh, that's lovely. Yes. Yeah. So do I have to do one for the next?

    21. APAlex Partridge1:29:23

        Yes, please, at the end.

    22. PWPete Wharmby1:29:23

        Yes.

    23. APAlex Partridge1:29:23

        That'd be very much appreciated.

    24. PWPete Wharmby1:29:25

        I will. I will. Do I get to keep this?

    25. APAlex Partridge1:29:26

        You can do, yes.

    26. PWPete Wharmby1:29:27

        Ooh.

    27. APAlex Partridge1:29:27

        Yes.

    28. PWPete Wharmby1:29:27

        That's nice.

    29. APAlex Partridge1:29:28

        Yeah.

    30. PWPete Wharmby1:29:28

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:29:43