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ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Chatter Podcast

Christine McGuinness Breaks Down Over Late AuDHD Diagnosis

Christine McGuinness is a British model, television personality and Autism advocate who has publicly spoken about her late AuDHD diagnosis and raising 3 autistic children.

Christine McGuinnessguestAlex Partridgehost
Feb 18, 20251h 10mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:02

    Trailer

    1. CM

      Nine in 10 autistic women are most likely to experience some kind of abuse. It may be sexual abuse or physical abuse, emotional, mental abuse

    2. AP

      Christine McGuinness A British model, television personality, and autism advocate

    3. CM

      Who has publicly spoken about her AuDHD diagnosis and raising 3 autistic children I was one of those nine in ten. I was sexually abused. It's sad. It's something that is never ever nice for anybody to talk about. Because of that nine in ten, it's so important, and that's why I chose to share that.

    4. AP

      If there is somebody listening and that's happened to them, do you have any advice for somebody like that?

    5. CM

      Write it down, and when you're ready, share it with somebody that you are really, really comfortable with. I didn't. I didn't say anything for 15 years, and it was only when I did that I got better with myself. I would tell little Christine to just really look after herself and look out for herself. I'd go and I would give her a hug. I'd take her home, keep her safe.

  2. 1:02 – 1:22

    Dedication

    1. AP

      You know that feeling when you're bored in class and you're swinging back on your chair onto two legs, but you accidentally swing back a bit too far? You're about to topple over, but you manage to correct yourself at the last minute. This episode is dedicated to anyone who feels like they're living in a constant state of that feeling. [upbeat music]

  3. 1:22 – 6:15

    Early memories of feeling different

    1. AP

      Have you got any early memories of feeling different?

    2. CM

      Yeah. Always. I can't remember not feeling different. As early as infant school, I remember just looking around and, and seeing all of the children playing together and me kind of, first of all, not even wanting to be there, but not knowing what to say or what to do or how to approach them, and these were kids that I was at school with for years. It was the same class. It was only a small class, same children, same teacher, but just was never as comfortable and as confident as all the other children.

    3. AP

      I mean, it's heartbreaking, really, and very relatable. Do you remember how you felt in those moments when you were observing all of these other kids playing and you almost felt like a bit of an outsider?

    4. CM

      I, I just, I remember, I remember thinking, "How, how are they doing that?" I remember mimicking very, very early on. I remember copying, almost word for word, people's conversations. I would listen and copy to how, how to approach another child.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CM

      And even playing and laughing. If somebody else laughed, I would laugh. Yeah. And, and trying to get the right balance with that, like, was quite hard as a child because I didn't understand what I was doing.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. CM

      So to the point where if, if a friend... I had one friend. If she fell over, I'd fall over. She'd cry, I'd cry. And yeah, now I understand it as kind of as, as masking and copying, trying to fit in, trying to be like others, and that grew massively almost out of control as a teenager-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. CM

      ... where by that point, I didn't know myself at all. Didn't, didn't know who I was, what I liked, what I wanted. Didn't know anything. I was just copying whoever I was around at the time.

    11. AP

      It's so relatable, and, and I, I massively relate to what you, what you say there. The sort of the shape-shifting, the mirroring. You almost copy other people's mannerisms sometimes-

    12. CM

      Yeah

    13. AP

      ... to, to, to be liked.

    14. CM

      Yeah. Yeah. I still do it, and it frustrates me because I know that I do it, and I'm aware of it, but I still can't help it. I'm definitely more subtle with it, and I'll check with myself a lot more, especially when it comes to clothes. It's something I fell into quite a lot. I almost play a role wherever, wherever I am, whatever I'm doing. It's almost always been a role. But certainly since Tally's come into my life, um, I, I will, I will almost turn into the people that I'm around, and it, it still frustrates me-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. CM

      ... that I do it. And yeah, I, I can't help it.

    17. AP

      Does this behavior of, of masking and... Did it make sense to you at the time? If you look back at that young Christine at school, did that behavior, were you aware of, of what you were doing?

    18. CM

      No. Other than the, other than the conversations, no. I, I remember specifically trying to listen and, uh, when, when children would go and play together in the playgrounds, I remember really, really trying to listen to what were they talking about and, you know, maybe I can try and add to it and find some common ground. But most of the time, there would be nothing-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. CM

      ... anyway. I didn't really play with toys. I didn't, I didn't really have anything at the time that I was massively interested in. I was definitely a loner, and I, and I liked being alone. So even just me trying to make friends and trying to play with other children, that weren't me being me, 'cause I didn't, I didn't necessarily want to.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. CM

      It was just that that's what everyone else is doing, so to be like everyone else, I best go and join in.

    23. AP

      And when you got home from school, when you were on your own, um, at home, what, what did young Christine do to fill her time there?

    24. CM

      Straight to my bedroom on my own. Loved it. I loved being on my own in my bedroom. That was my little sanctuary, my safe place. It still is now. I, I sit in my room for hours. When I was little, drawing. I love to draw. I love to doodle. Um, writing. I love to write. I've always written but never... Nothing ever really makes sense. There's no, there's no journal or dear diary. It's kind of a lot of, like, scribbly notes or thoughts, or it might just be a word-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. CM

      ... and I would, I'd write the word, but then I'd doodle all around it. Um, I'd have music on. Music's always been massive in my house, in my head, in my home, in my heart. I love music, and now I understand it more- I think music is probably the one thing that really can help me switch off

  4. 6:15 – 7:09

    Did these behaviours make sense to people closest to you

    1. AP

      This behavior of, of spending time alone, um, which is very relatable, I, I used to spend so much time in my room painting Warhammer, I remember, at a similar age to what you're talking about. Did it make sense to the people closest to you, your nearest and dearest, at that time?

    2. CM

      No, not really. I think, I think because I've got a brother and sister, and they were always quite social and we played together. I've got older sister, younger brother, they were really close. And I was the middle child, and for years, e- especially as a teenager, I just always thought, "Well, I'm... You know, I've got middle child syndrome. Of course I'm the one who's left out." 'Cause the oldest gets to stay up late-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. CM

      ... and the little one's the baby so they get everything, and the little one, or the middle one, middle child, sort of gets... They're not special, are they? They're just left to it. So I just felt a bit like that. And I think my mum was just always quite happy that I was, I was home and safe-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. CM

      ... and quiet, good little girl.

  5. 7:09 – 9:15

    How do you differentiate between the traits of your ADHD and autism?

    1. AP

      You got a diagnosis of ADHD and autism, you said. How do you differentiate between the traits of ADHD and autism? In other words, is there a clash internally within you?

    2. CM

      Constantly. Yeah, constantly. It's... I feel like a walking contradiction.

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. CM

      That's what I feel like. And it's a constant battle in my head of one part of me loves routine, I like everything organized, I like to know where I'm going, who I'm gonna be with. I like, I like to have notice so that I can plan and prepare. And then the other side, that one- [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. CM

      ... just likes to come along and mess all of that up and go, "No, that's really boring. Why don't we just go out and party?"

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. CM

      Or, you know, "Don't wear that outfit, wear this one instead." And yeah, it's, it's constant battling between the autism and ADHD. It does feel a bit like I'm two different people sometimes, but it's, it's all in one head.

    9. AP

      Mm. Very relatable. It really is. I think, although it's... You can look at it with almost like a comical lens of ADHD pulling you in one direction and autism pulling you in another and, and this internal battle between chaos and organization and therefore this sort of, this, this battle in the middle. D- does it ever create turmoil inside you?

    10. CM

      It's exhausting. B- it- seriously. I, I like to laugh and joke as much as I can. I think laughter gets me through so much, but seriously, when I sit with myself and I look at my life and I, and I look at the list of things that I need to do and the people I haven't got back to, I... Yeah, it, it, it's exhausting. It's really, really difficult. Every single day there'll be something where I just, I just visualize that emoji-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. CM

      ... with the head exploding. I think I probably use it so much on my phone-

    13. AP

      [laughs]

    14. CM

      ... because it's kind of every day there'll be something where I just go-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. CM

      ... "This is, this is a lot. This is, really, really is a lot to deal with."

  6. 9:15 – 11:37

    The diagnosis story

    1. AP

      When were you diagnosed with ADHD and autism, and why do you think it took you so long?

    2. CM

      Um, I was almost 31. Um, it was not long after my children were diagnosed. Um, I'd never heard of it when I was at school. I'd never, I'd never heard of neurodiversity when I was a teenager. Throughout my 20s, I was quite the recluse, which I loved. I loved staying at home. I was a stay-at-home mom with three babies, and I absolutely loved it, and I didn't, I didn't socialize or go out. And all of my, I suppose my signs and symptoms, were quite calm and settled because my life was so, so quiet. Apart from being a mom, looking after my babies, there wasn't an awful lot for me to do and organize.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. CM

      Um, when my children were about to start school, the development delays were getting more and more obvious. Um, I went to get them some help from a pediatrician. They had speech and language therapy, and yeah, they got diagnosed just before they went to school. And it was when I was sat in their therapy sessions, especially the food play therapy, um, which is exactly as it sounds, they play with food, I kind of sat there thinking, "I, I can't do what the, what the therapist is asking my children to do," which was just, you know, get a breadstick and swill it around in-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. CM

      ... some soup, just to try and get them used to playing with different textures. And I, I couldn't do it. I've always been really, really particular with textures, not just with, with food, uh, with fabrics, with clothes, with my bedding, with my bath towels, anything. Um, but food's always been a really big issue. And when I was there, it was, yeah, the pediatrician kind of looked at me and, and she was like, "Do, does Mommy wanna play with the food?"

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. CM

      And I was like, "Thank you. [laughs] You do it." The kids wouldn't do it. Uh, it kind of went from there. There was more and more similarities. I just thought, you know, my children were similar to me because they were my children.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. CM

      But yeah, it became more apparent that all of the red flags that were coming up for them-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. CM

      ... that I, I had them too. I just didn't realize it was, it was any different. I just thought that's, that was us, that was me and them.

    13. AP

      It must have been a huge amount to process.

  7. 11:37 – 14:05

    Talk me through the emotions you felt after your diagnosis

    1. AP

      I mean, when you heard those words, "You have ADHD, you have autism," how did you feel? Can you walk us through the emotions you felt when you heard those words?

    2. CM

      I was, I was, I was relieved. Straightaway I thought of my children. That's the, the first thing I thought of, was I was kind of like, "Okay. Well, I've been so scared of talking to my children about their diagnosis, so at least now when I talk to them, it can soften the blow a bit and I can tell them that they're just like Mommy. So that means that they're gonna be okay because, because Mommy's okay." But inside, Mommy wasn't okay.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. CM

      Mom- Mommy was exhausted, and Mommy didn't know what was going on with a lot of important things in life because Mommy would just, just shut it off and ignore it and, and forget about it. So there was a lot of, um, there was a lot of unpicking to do, and I knew that it was the very, very beginning of, of a whole different journey for myself in, in self-discovery and figuring out who I was and what I wanted. Because the more I understood it, there was no avoiding how much I masked. There was no avoiding how much I copied. There was no avoiding how much I people-pleased, and that's been the biggest and the hardest thing to try and get some kind of control over.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CM

      Because I really, really struggle to say no. And, and I'm a giver. I, I give far too much, and, and I've let too many people in, and it's, it's cost me in many different ways. It's, it's cost me financially, it's cost me in businesses, it's cost me with friendships. It's from just wanting to make other people happy. So yeah, it's, it's been a lot. It's been, it's been a lot.

    7. AP

      Sure.

    8. CM

      And I still feel like I'm at the beginning. [laughs]

    9. AP

      [laughs] Still at the... Still-

    10. CM

      Yeah

    11. AP

      ... still so, so much awareness and learning to do. I mean, it's amazing. Thank you for coming on here and sharing your journey. It's... You mentioned people-pleasing then. It's such a big topic. I had a top psychiatrist on here talking about people-pleasing, and he said a lot of the time, it's, it's a defense mechanism. You're trying to avoid a criticism.

    12. CM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AP

      You're trying to... You're, you're desperately trying to avoid a rejection because the reaction to criticism or rejection is so intrinsically physiologically painful that we will do anything to stop-

    14. CM

      Yeah

    15. AP

      ... the risk of encountering a rejection.

  8. 14:05 – 15:48

    Rejection

    1. AP

      How are you in the face of rejection and criticism?

    2. CM

      I think I'm, I'm very careful to not put myself in places where I might experience it, so I'm over-aware maybe. Um, I feel very fortunate that I'm able to do what I do for work because I don't know, I don't know what I would do. The, the thought of going for a job interview or... Well, when I was a teenager, I, um, I very, very briefly modeled before I did on TV work. Um, so it was just an average model. Like the rest of them, you'd go to castings, you'd go to so many auditions almost-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. CM

      ... you'd go to, and it was constant rejection, one after the other. Um, yeah, I, I didn't last long. [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. CM

      I didn't last long at all. Um, but yeah, I, I think, like you said, that it's, it's the fear of rejection, but also wanting to be liked.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. CM

      Want- wanting to be liked. I think I will go extremely out of my way to make somebody else happy, even to the point of where I could be unhappy. I could be so unhappy, but I'll go along with it and do it because I wanna be a really good friend-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. CM

      ... or I wanna be a good partner, and I just wanna make sure that they're okay and they're happy. 'Cause if they're happy, that means I'm a good person, but then I'm exhausted and, and not happy.

    11. AP

      Mm. Well, I guess it goes back to what you were saying earlier about your time in school. It's that desperation to be liked, and at school, you were shape-shifting, mirroring, desperately trying to mold yourself to be the most likable version.

    12. CM

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      And I guess that comes with us a lot of the time into adulthood. A very blunt question, but I think a relatable

  9. 15:48 – 28:36

    Do you struggle making friends?

    1. AP

      one: do you struggle to make f- friends?

    2. CM

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't... Right now I've got, uh, one, one very good close friend, uh, Duncan, who I love so much, and I appreciate, and, and I hope that I get to keep him forever as a friend.

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. CM

      I tend to always have one friend throughout life. It's always been like that. So throughout infant and junior school, it was just that, that one friend, and then when I went to senior school, I had one friend. Uh, 20s, there was just one, and then me 30s now, yeah, Duncan. And I don't, I don't think it's me. I don't think I'm a bad person. I don't think I'm a, I'm a bad friend, but I think I can be extremely unreliable. I change plans a lot. I can be late. I forget, I forget to answer the phone. I forget to reply.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CM

      You know, so if, if Duncan was ever in, in a really [laughs] serious emergency-

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. CM

      ... you know, he probably knows not to call me. [laughs]

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. CM

      As much as I love him and I wanna be there as much as possible, I kind of... Yeah, there's times where I'm more, I'm more available-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. CM

      ... and times when I'm not at all. So I've just got to the point now where I accept the way I am, and I'm okay with the way I am, and if that means that, um, I haven't got a long list of friends at my funeral one day, that's fine. [laughs]

    13. AP

      [laughs]

    14. CM

      It'll be nice and peaceful, how I like it. [laughs]

    15. AP

      [laughs] Gosh, I, uh, yeah, the unpredict- about... The unpredictability of when you are going to be emotionally and, and communitively available is so relatable. It's, it's like you can excitedly text someone but then ignore their attempts to call you back because the dopamine is just gone.

    16. CM

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I'll just do it if, if I've got a minute where I think, "Oh, okay. Right, I can respond to that now. I'll do it now." But I- I've got no plans to have a conversation.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. CM

      This isn't like a two-way thing. It's just a o- it's an output. [laughs]

    19. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    20. CM

      And that's it. The input's not working. Yeah. It's, um, it, it's hard, and I get it, and I, and I don't, I don't hold any grudges. And for, you know, for anyone that's been in and out of my life, I'm very, very fortunate. I've worked with so many amazing people. I've got so many contacts, I will say that, loads of contacts. But when it doesn't develop into more of a, a friendship- I'm, I'm okay with it-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. CM

      ... because I j- I keep moving on. I can't stay stagnant. I just can't. I, I like to, I like to keep going.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. CM

      And I'm actually okay with meeting new people. It used to be quite a big fear for me. Um, but now I'm, I'm sort of okay with it because I think I've just accepted that I'm in and I'm out.

    25. AP

      [laughs]

    26. CM

      [laughs] That's kind of what I do.

    27. AP

      The idea of having one friend is, is for me sounds perfect. Yeah, and the relatability I think comes from, A, relating to that, but also then recognizing that there sometimes is a degree of loneliness that comes from that inability to, to make or maintain friends. How do you feel when you see a group of women on a night out together on, in a picture?

    28. CM

      Do you know? I kind of unpick the whole picture, the whole vision. I will think about it all. I, I will, I will almost interview them in my head. I'll be thinking, "Do you know, so when did you all meet? How long have you all known each other?"

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. CM

      "And are you, are you sisters or are you friends?" And like a- I kind of... I, I want to know the whole story in my head, but I don't wanna be one of them.

  10. 28:36 – 30:02

    What do you believe to be the common (everyday person) perspective on Autism?

    1. AP

      What do you think the current perspective is for the everyday person towards an autistic person?

    2. CM

      I've seen big changes in the last few years since talking about my children and then talking about myself. I've seen big changes, which is great, but nowhere near where it needs to be. And I was talking to a doctor, um, I was talking to a doctor just last week about exactly what you've just said, and I asked him why. Why... I said, "Why, why is, is ADHD getting so much more attention a- and awareness?" And I'm not against it. I'm, I'm here for it, absolutely. I think neurodiversity for me is incredible when it's understood. A- absolutely amazing. It's magical. And, um, and, and, and he said that he, he believed that the reason that autism is still not spoken about as much and still massively misunderstood is because there isn't treatment for it like there is for ADHD. And it just, it stayed with me, and I have replayed that conversation 1,000 times in my head because surely that's why it needs more attention, and it needs a light shining on it, because there isn't enough help-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. CM

      ... or treatment. And I don't just mean, like, as in tablets. Like, we all know that there's meds for ADHD and there isn't for autism, but surely there's treatment in other ways. Like, in,

  11. 30:02 – 34:17

    Parenting

    1. CM

      in how I treat my children, and that can just be, you know, how I prepare their day. It might be using a visual calendar. You know, it could be giving them more notice on things or not overwhelm them with too much information. Treating people isn't necessarily just with medication.

    2. AP

      Mm.

    3. CM

      It's how we talk to them How, how we treat them and prepare them for life-

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. CM

      ... and school and, yeah, it's... Yeah, it's, it, it's sad. I, I think, um, I think exactly what that doctor said is the reason why it, it still needs a lot-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. CM

      ... a lot of attention.

    8. AP

      So much to think about, you know, and what you said there about it- there's ways to be kinder to yourself and to treat your mental health without pills.

    9. CM

      Yep.

    10. AP

      Um, and it has to start young. I think letting children know that if their interests and what they wanna do don't align with the curriculum, for example, if they're bad at maths, or if they're bad at history, or if their interest is in music or sport or creating stuff, then that's okay, and to encourage difference-

    11. CM

      Yeah

    12. AP

      ... rather than trying to fit a, a square peg into a round hole.

    13. CM

      Yeah, absolutely. And it's not even just with, you know, the lessons at school, because obviously it- they need, they need to be educated, so they've gotta do the, the subjects that they have to do. But if they can choose to do, like, double music or-

    14. AP

      Mm

    15. CM

      ... whatever it is. Double... My son would be double maths every day because he loves numbers. You know, that's amazing. I think children should be encouraged to do what, what they love and what they enjoy. But I think more importantly, for me, with my own children anyway, it, it would be more to do with, with socializing and going to parties and for Christmas Day, I, I make sure that they know they don't have to.

    16. AP

      Mm.

    17. CM

      And a lot of the time they choose not to, because they have a choice, because they are human and they're people, and they should be allowed to-

    18. AP

      Mm

    19. CM

      ... have a say in what they do in their life, even at a young age, to an extent, obviously. But for me, it works, and I love that my children are making their own decisions. When there's an invitation to a birthday party, I will show them. I will, I will show them videos and pictures of where the birthday party is. I will ask how many children are gonna be there, and I'll tell them. And if they decide that it's not for them, we, we send a, you know, a sweet thank you message and a gift to, to whoever's party it is.

    20. AP

      Mm.

    21. CM

      And we politely decline, the same way as I would as an adult if I didn't wanna go to something.

    22. AP

      Whereas in a, in an alternative scenario, you could, if you were unaware of, of autism, you could almost force the child-

    23. CM

      Mm

    24. AP

      ... to go to that party.

    25. CM

      Yeah.

    26. AP

      So the child goes, has a meltdown-

    27. CM

      Yeah

    28. AP

      ... has an, an anxiety attack, and the shame that must-

    29. CM

      Yeah

    30. AP

      ... come with that.

  12. 34:17 – 36:26

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    1. AP

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  13. 36:26 – 41:13

    What are some truths about Autism that you experience on a day-to-day basis?

    1. AP

      What do you think are some truths around living with autism that have showed up in your life?

    2. CM

      Um, the, the sensory side of things-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. CM

      ... for me is quite extreme still, and it's one of them things that I can't seem to put a lid on or improve and, and I'm trying, and I'm trying. But yeah, the textures with clothes, with food. Food in particular, food has been a massive issue-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. CM

      ... for, for far too long. Um, being misunderstood at school, I ended up with an eating disorder, which is far too common. It's really, really common, especially for girls who are autistic, and it wasn't because I wanted to be slim. I still don't wanna be slim now. And I, I don't actually think about, about my figure in, in how it looks. It's more, it's, it's how I feel, and I just wanna be healthy.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. CM

      I've got three kids, so I wanna be healthy. At school, that never, ever crossed my mind about how I looked. All that I knew was that there was absolutely no way I was gonna go into the canteen. There was no way I was gonna queue up and, and then get to the front, not know what was there on display, 'cause it was almost like a buffet thing that everybody else had touched. It'd be different-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. CM

      ... every single day of the week. There was no menu, no planner at my school. And then you're expected to take your tray of food into a canteen that was just so loud. I can hear the echoing now still. I can picture it so clear. And then I would be stood there thinking, "Okay, where do, where do I go? Who do I sit with? I don't, I don't know anybody. Like, I don't... I'm not friends with anyone." It was, it was awful.

    11. AP

      Ooh.

    12. CM

      I'd done it once. I'd done it the, the first day of high school, I'd done it once. Never, ever done it again. So for the rest of my school years, I didn't eat, and sadly, that turned into an eating disorder that I struggled to get control of. Nobody ever asked me why I wasn't eating. The doctor just looked at my mum and, and said, "Well, she's a teenage girl. Obviously she's, she's got an eating disorder. She wants to be slim." And I didn't say anything, 'cause at the time I was so, so quiet. I didn't speak up for myself, and it's one of my biggest regrets.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. CM

      I wish I would've said to him, "It's got, it's got nothing to do with that. It's got nothing to do with that at all. I just can't stand the noise and the smell-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. CM

      ... of the food and the hustle and bustle of the canteen." I co- I didn't like it, but I never said anything. I stayed quiet. And, um, I got better. I, I did get better 'cause I wa- I wanted to be a mum, and I'm really, really healthy now. I'm s- I'm probably the healthiest I've ever been, but I still could do better, and it's, it's purely, now that I understand it, it's all down to sensory issues.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. CM

      It's not just the room that I'm eating in or the people I'm around, it's the smell of the food, the texture of the food, the color of the food. You're never gonna find me with, like, a messy spag bol.

    19. AP

      [laughs]

    20. CM

      Everything I eat is very beige and dry.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. CM

      And my children are the same, and I think that is... that's one of the biggest autism flags in my house with me-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. CM

      ... and my children that is so obvious, but to me, I didn't know any different. My children were the same as me, and I just thought, "Well, th- they're just like me."

    25. AP

      [laughs] How does that translate into, like, your experience going to the supermarket and choosing what to buy, what to eat? Is that a overwhelming experience?

    26. CM

      Yeah. And again, it's one of those things that I never understood about myself. I, I never liked it, never enjoyed it. Now I understand. I will get a delivery wherever I can. [laughs]

    27. AP

      [laughs]

    28. CM

      I'll avoid the supermarket. But yeah, I used to go, I used to go to the shop at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning when it was really, really quiet, and I never thought to myself this, you know, "Why am I doing this? Now why, why am I going at this time?" It was just something that I'd figured out I could go to the shop at, at that time 'cause it would be quieter. Um, and, and now it makes sense. But yeah, it's the little things that other people find easy. It's those little things that I can't seem to change, and I'm... I wanna be okay with it, but it's, yeah, it's frustrating because other people find it quite easy-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. CM

      ... to just nip into a shop and get a loaf of bread or whatever they need, whereas for me it's... yeah, it's, it's, it's like a whole big massive mountain-

  14. 41:13 – 42:35

    People making inaccurate assumptions about you because of your Autism

    1. CM

      Yeah.

    2. AP

      Do you find people make inaccurate assumptions about you because they know that you have autism?

    3. CM

      Um, I think, I think because of how well I present, a lot of the inaccuracy is assuming that I'm fine. You know, we all know that social media isn't real. Even though we all know it, we'll still look and go-

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. CM

      ... "Oh, look at her there on that red carpet."

    6. AP

      [laughs]

    7. CM

      "She's fine, smiling there." But they won't, they won't realize everything I've done just to get there. For that one-second photograph that people see where, where I might look happy and I might look fine, 'cause I have absolutely mastered the red carpet smile. [laughs]

    8. AP

      [laughs]

    9. CM

      When actually I have had to make sure that I go to the same dress shop, that I have the same dress lady, that I have the same hotel, that I have the same driver, have the same hair and makeup artist. If none of them are around, if they're not available, that, that event is not happening. I'm not going.

    10. AP

      One-

    11. CM

      I'm not doing it

    12. AP

      ... one thing falls down, and the whole event you don't go.

    13. CM

      Yeah.

    14. AP

      Yeah.

    15. CM

      And you also can't see. It's like you've heard of the swan analogy.

    16. AP

      Yeah, of course.

    17. CM

      The feet inside.

    18. AP

      Yeah.

    19. CM

      That, that is what is happening inside, but I'll present as being absolutely fine. So for me, the inaccuracy is more of, of how much of a master I am at

  15. 42:35 – 50:13

    Sexual abuse amongst autistic women

    1. CM

      masking.

    2. AP

      There's a quote from a BBC documentary you did, Christine, and you said, um, "I was sexually abused like so many other autistic women." This is obviously extremely fragile territory, but something you've been outspoken about. But to raise awareness, and only if you're comfortable, can we talk about this experience?

    3. CM

      Yeah. Um, during filming I was reading statistics and, and one of them was that 9 in 10 autistic women are most likely to experience some kind of abuse. It may be sexual abuse or physical abuse, emotional, mental abuse. And, um, yeah, I was, I was one of those 9 in 10. I was sexually abused. And, um, it's, it's heartbreaking. It's sad. It's something that is never, ever nice for anybody to talk about. But because of that 9 in 10, it's so important, and that's why I chose to share that. I've got three children. I've got two girls, and I know how easy it is for us to end up in situations and not realize what somebody else's intentions are because I've been there, and because I still, I still do make little innocent mistakes on my part where I'll think, I'll think somebody wants to be my friend or, you know, somebody's offering me a lift to a hotel or, you know-

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. CM

      ... just trying to be helpful. I will think someone's being nice and kind. I won't see that as that somebody might be coming onto me or somebody might be flirting. So because I struggle with reading that kind of body language anyway, um, I'm more vulnerable-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. CM

      ... to being in situations and kind of going, "I did not see that coming at all." And that is unfortunately the case for a lot of autistic women.

    8. AP

      Really 9 out of 10?

    9. CM

      9 out of 10. I think the people-pleasing has probably got a lot to do with it.

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. CM

      Um, especially in relationships. If you're s- if you're scared of change, that can be another reason.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. CM

      Being scared of change, you know, you, you might be more likely to just put up with, with behavior that isn't really okay in a relationship, but you'll put up with it because you don't wanna change. You don't wanna then have to start again and meet somebody new. And that would change your whole life. So yeah, a lot of, a lot of autistic women will kind of just go along with things and stay quiet and, and then of course there's, there's the fact that we all like to present perfectly-

    14. AP

      Mm

    15. CM

      ... and, like, everything's fine, everything's happy and, you know, we never wanna say if we were struggling or if things weren't okay. So therefore we're more vulnerable to stay in situations for a lot longer than we should.

    16. AP

      And if something terrible does happen, what do you think are the traumatic effects of having something like that happen to you? And what does the recovery process of that look like?

    17. CM

      I think I can only go off my, um, personal experience, which I would say probably quite typical for a lot of the women that I've spoke to that have had similar experiences have all [laughs] said the same thing. It's almost like we will push it so far down in our mind that it never happened, and you forget about it, and you, and you move on. And of course it did happen, and your memory pops back up, and you'll get triggered now and again with certain things, and those triggers can come from nowhere. It could be somebody's aftershave. It could be a song playing in a bar.

    18. AP

      Mm.

    19. CM

      You know, your memory is gonna bring it back to you if you don't deal with it. But the, the first, the first thing I think most autistic women do with any kind of trauma is, is really, really push it down and try and not feel it and try and not deal with it and not cope with it. And f- I think for anybody, dealing with anything like that is hard, and it's traumatic, and nobody wants to accept that that's happened to them. I think accepting it is, is the hardest thing, but you've got to. You've got to talk about it, and you've got to feel it and think about it to be able to push through, and you've gotta just feel it and push through and keep going until you're, you're on the other side where you can talk about it like how I've done today, and like I always will. I can talk about it, and I'm not really emotionally affected. I'm, I'm so, so grateful that that's not me and my life now. I'm so grateful that I'm aware of putting myself in situations like that, even though I still could do better. I'm always learning, and I wanna help other people learn too, especially, you know, for, for anybody who's got children or is around autistic women themselves that may be vulnerable. It's good to know, and the only way people are gonna learn is, is by talking.

    20. AP

      Mm. Often I've read accounts where victims have had a terrible thing happen to them, and then they've come out of it and they're blaming themselves. Do you think that is common? And if so, why do you think somebody, a victim, might have an issue or struggle to identify something was not their fault?

    21. CM

      Because I think it's, it... [laughs] I was talking about this the other day. It's so random. It's... When we blame ourselves for anything, no matter how big or small, if something has gone wrong or something that shouldn't have happened, if I blame it on me and it's my fault, it's almost like a handy over there. I don't wanna, I don't wanna accept that somebody else might have done something bad to me. I don't wanna think that anybody could do, do that. So m- so if it's my fault, then it's kind of easier to be harder on myself than to think that another human would do something so bad. But then when you really sit and think about it and go, "Well, did, did I, did I say that was okay? Did, did anybody ask me if that was all right? Did I consent? No, I d- I didn't." The, the blame him yourself part is kind of maybe I might have, uh, agreed to go back to a house party, I might have agreed to swap numbers with that person. But in my head it was, it was innocence, it was friendship.

    22. AP

      Hmm.

    23. CM

      I didn't, I didn't know what was, what was about to happen. And I think that's where a lot of women themselves, when they've been sexually abused, will, will blame themselves, you know? And you think about everything. You think, "Maybe I shouldn't have wore that dress," you know? May- maybe I should have wore trainers instead of heels. And it takes a long, long time to kind of know that it's not your fault.

    24. AP

      Hmm.

    25. CM

      It's really not your fault. We should be able to wear whatever we want and go to any party and be around anybody safely, and that's, that's how it should be. It's not how it is, but it's how it should be.

    26. AP

      Hmm. No, absolutely. These forms of assault, these most heinous forms of assault, aside for

  16. 50:13 – 52:38

    Are autistic women vulnerable to other forms of abuse

    1. AP

      a moment, do you think autistic women are, are particularly vulnerable to other types of abuse too?

    2. CM

      Definitely. Definitely. Uh, and [laughs] I still fall into that bracket, and it frustrates me so much. And I think, again, the people-pleasing, I will be the first person, it doesn't matter whom with, how long I've known people, if, if we're out anywhere, if there's a bill, I'll get it.

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. CM

      I'll get it. Does, uh, anyone want anything else?

    5. AP

      Hmm.

    6. CM

      I, I won't even be eating, obviously, because [laughs] I don't wanna eat with everybody.

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. CM

      But if anybody else wants a drink or they want food, I'll, I'll get it. And I think there are times where some people kind of sit back and just let you, let you pay, let you do it, um, because, you know, they know that you're usually just quite happy and grateful that someone wants to be in your company for-

    9. AP

      Hmm

    10. CM

      ... for a bit.

    11. AP

      We've got a lot of, um, people listening who, who either are autistic or, or relate to being on the autistic spectrum, and I've no doubt that many of them will have been in a position where they have experienced these terrible things that you're describing. If there is somebody listening and that's happened to them, and they haven't, for whatever reason, been able to talk about it or report it, do you have any advice for somebody like that?

    12. CM

      Write it down. Write it down, and when you're ready, share it with somebody that you are really, really comfortable with. And if you haven't got a safe person in your life, like, like your parents or a family member, find a, a professional. You, you need to share it with someone. I didn't. I didn't say anything for 15 years. Um, and it was only when I did that I got better with myself and I accepted it. So, uh, so I learned.

    13. AP

      Hmm.

    14. CM

      I, I learned that it wasn't my fault, and I stopped, uh, avoiding busier places and parties and nightlife that I used to avoid quite a lot, and I stopped worrying about if I was dressed too sexy or if I should give somebody me phone number or not. Stopped worrying because I accepted it.

  17. 52:38 – 55:37

    Advice for younger self

    1. AP

      If you could go back in time to, with the knowledge and the, the, the self-awareness and the, the understanding that you have around how your brain works now, and you could go back to the younger version of Christine who was in those vulnerable positions, what would you say to her?

    2. CM

      I would say, I would say, "Do what makes you happy. Stop, stop using all of your energy to please everybody else." If people looked at people like energy instead of just people, I think we'd all be a lot more careful about who we spent our time with. And something I've learned is that I'm actually very intuitive in many ways, and I'm okay at making my own decisions. I think that's that self-doubt that has always been there from things happening in life that shouldn't have happened and where I've blamed myself. That's, that's took years and years of, of my free, good time and my years that I should've had, and experiences and work and life, and it's took far too much away from me. And I, and I think that's probably the worst, the worst part of it, is, is how long it carries on after something's happened when it's been traumatic. It's not over once the event's over. It affects you for years and years if you don't sit and deal with it and accept it and learn from it.

    3. AP

      Hmm.

    4. CM

      And yeah, I would, I would tell little Christine to just really look after herself and look out for herself and, and keep some energy for herself and stop-

    5. AP

      Hmm

    6. CM

      ... giving it to everybody else.

    7. AP

      Wise words and powerful, powerful advice. It's... Y- you w- you want to go back, don't you? You, you wish you could sometimes and sort of put your arms around the younger version of you and-

    8. CM

      Oh, my God, yeah

    9. AP

      ... and, and scream or whisper something in the ear, um, with this new knowledge. But of course, we can't do that.

    10. CM

      No. Okay, I'm gonna cry. [laughs] And that's why I, I actually never really get, um, emotional, but, yeah, and no one's ever asked me what I would do. I'd go and I would give her a hug. I'd take her home, keep her safe.

    11. AP

      Second best thing we can do, isn't it, Christine, we can, we can talk about it, and a younger version of you will hear.

    12. CM

      Mm.

    13. AP

      A younger, a younger version of Christine will hear, and they will be better equipped to make decisions that will enable them to, to, to live a life that's more true to who they really are.

    14. CM

      Yeah.

    15. AP

      That's what we're doing here today.

    16. CM

      Yeah.

  18. 55:37 – 1:03:32

    ADHD item

    1. AP

      Just finally, Christine, um, I always ask my guests to bring in an item that most represents ADHD for them. And yours is hidden under that cloth.

    2. CM

      [laughs]

    3. AP

      Would you like a tissue, Christine?

    4. CM

      Go on. Sorry.

    5. AP

      Right. Cool. We're back after a quick, uh, tissue break. [laughs]

    6. CM

      [laughs]

    7. AP

      Um, just finally, Christine, we have an item ... We have a segment called the ADHD item. I ask every guest to tell me an item that most represents ADHD in their life, and yours I'm going to reveal under this cloth now. Hey, look at that.

    8. CM

      [laughs]

    9. AP

      Pass that to you. It's a mobile phone.

    10. CM

      [laughs]

    11. AP

      A toy mobile phone, but a real-

    12. CM

      Thank you

    13. AP

      ... represents a real mobile phone.

    14. CM

      [laughs]

    15. AP

      Why is a mobile phone a representation of ADHD in your life?

    16. CM

      Because I feel like, especially the new phones, they've got all of this information. They've got apps. They're incredible. They're creative. They can do so much stuff. But sometimes the Wi-Fi goes-

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. CM

      ... the signal goes, or there's no battery, the battery dies. And then it's, it's pretty useless. And I feel like that represents every part of my ADHD. All of the best bits are in there. But that ADHD paralysis, if I haven't recharged my battery, if I haven't communicated enough, the signal goes, my social battery goes-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. CM

      ... and, and everything is like a toy phone that-

    21. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    22. CM

      ... just doesn't do anything at all.

    23. AP

      [laughs]

    24. CM

      So yeah, that was, that was what I felt like represented ADHD in the best way that I could put it. It, it's ... Yeah.

    25. AP

      Yeah.

    26. CM

      That, that's how I see it.

    27. AP

      That's amazing.

    28. CM

      It's kind of-

    29. AP

      It's a bit like your red, red carpet story. You know, your ... The phones are amazing. I'm sure you look amazing on the red carpet, but one detail pulls away-

    30. CM

      Mm

  19. 1:03:32 – 1:07:29

    The ADHD agony aunt (washing machine of woes)

    1. AP

      speaking of washing machines, I wanna finally do the, the ADHD agony aunt section, which is called-

    2. CM

      Okay

    3. AP

      ... the washing machine of woes because my ADHD item is a washing machine because I can never remember [laughs]

    4. CM

      [laughs]

    5. AP

      ... to, to empty it when the, when the load's done, although I am using the Timo app, which means I am getting a bit better, which is the sponsor of the show.

    6. CM

      Okay.

    7. AP

      Um, but every week I ask my Instagram community to send me a ADHD woe, which I put in the washing machine. I choose one, and I read it out to the guest to see-

    8. CM

      Okay

    9. AP

      ... if there is some wisdom to be shared.

    10. CM

      Oh.

    11. AP

      This week, Christine, in the washing machine of woes, someone has written in and asked, "I have AuDHD, and I find dating so hard. I feel like as soon as the guy I'm dating realizes I'm a bit different, they see it as too much work and then ghost me. Do you have any advice on what it takes to find a good partner for an autistic girl?"

    12. CM

      Oh. I think, I think the right person will absolutely love every part of you. The right person will have the patience that you need, will have all of the understanding that you need. So if it doesn't work out with whoever you're dating because they're not okay with your own little quirks or your ways, whatever it is, then that's not the right person for you, so don't lose any sleep over it.

    13. AP

      Mm. Amazing. You know, it's straight to the point, isn't it? It's, uh... I guess, yeah, that intuition.

    14. CM

      You don't, you don't want to be with somebody that is not okay with you being yourself.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. CM

      So if this girl, she's, she's autistic and ADHD, the same as me.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. CM

      She's going on dates. But if the people in front of her aren't okay with who she is-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. CM

      ... why would you wanna be with that person? Don't worry about it. Like, every, every one of us is different and unique, and if that's not celebrated with your partner, then they're not the right person to you.

    21. AP

      Mm. Just following on from that, do you think... I think it's quite natural, right, to, to, to mask to some extent on a first date. You, you sort of want to put your best foot forward and, and put your best version of yourself on the table. Do you think... How do you notice if you are masking too much on a first date, and it might be a misrepresentation of your real self, which could cause problems further down the line?

    22. CM

      I think, uh, it, it takes a lot of work to completely be yourself in any situation, not even just on a date, just whenever you're meeting anybody new. You know, we always wanna act the, our politest, best, happiest version. You know, no one wants to be really real and, and go and meet someone new and start talking about-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. CM

      ... how terrible their day's been or, you know, how awful things are. Like, so anyone's gonna go and, and pretend, a mask to some extent. I think, I think it takes a lot to be completely yourself, and I think it would be too much to expect for anybody on a first date to be going and giving their realest, rawest version of themselves.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. CM

      Surely everyone's gonna show the best bits first. But I, I think just self-awareness, just make sure you're not re- You're not acting so much where it's completely far removed from who you actually are, because eventually that mask is gonna slip

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. CM

      And yeah, whoever you're dating or whoever you're trying to build friendships with or connections, they're gonna see that, and then it's... yeah, it's not gonna work out, so it's just wasting everybody's time.

    29. AP

      Yeah.

    30. CM

      Ideally, you need to be able to turn off and just, just be yourself.

  20. 1:07:29 – 1:10:09

    A letter from the previous guest

    1. AP

      Um, I know I keep saying, "And finally," but there is one more. [laughs]

    2. CM

      [laughs]

    3. AP

      It's my, uh, brain getting muddled up.

    4. CM

      It's okay. [laughs]

    5. AP

      And finally, again, we have a closing tradition on the podcast where the previous guest writes a letter, and they write three rules to live by, and they put it in that post office-

    6. CM

      Oh, wow

    7. AP

      ... and I deliver it to you f- to read. Well, I'll deliver the letter to you, Christine.

    8. CM

      To the next guest. So somebody, whoever was here last, just wrote this letter?

    9. AP

      That's correct, yes.

    10. CM

      Do you want me to open it?

    11. AP

      Yes, please. Yes.

    12. CM

      Do you know I never open letters? [laughs]

    13. AP

      [laughs] You said, yeah, yeah.

    14. CM

      I never open letters.

    15. AP

      The first letter you've ever opened.

    16. CM

      [laughs]

    17. AP

      It's an exclusive on ADHD Chatter.

    18. CM

      "Step away from your phone. Have the occasional day off social media." I- I'm pretty good at staying off social media, but I'm not good at staying off me phone.

    19. AP

      No, likewise.

    20. CM

      Yeah. I spend so much time creating on me phone. I don't actually use social media an awful lot, but yeah. "Be kind to yourself. Your difference is your purpose." Oh, I love that. It's something I say an awful lot. I really feel like all of this is, is m- my purpose.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. CM

      I really f- I, I only ever wanted to be a mum, and I, I was supposed to be my children's mum for all of these reasons, because I wouldn't have known about me-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. CM

      ... if I didn't have those children. So it's completely... My differences is my purpose and me passion. I love that. "In hard times, remember things will change. We become someone else with time. Every present problem is a dot on a future horizon." That's so true. Again, it's something I actually say a lot, and it helps me a lot. I, I often say, "It will pass."

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. CM

      And I, and I think in every way of life, good and bad, it always passes, which is why it's so, so important to remember and enjoy the good times and try and be present-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. CM

      ... which is hard when you've got [laughs] an ADHD brain.

    29. AP

      [laughs]

    30. CM

      But to really try and be present when it's good, and when it's not so good, it's gonna pass.

Episode duration: 1:10:09

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