Do you have AuDHD (Autism & ADHD)? 10 Signs | Dr. Samantha Hiew

1. 0:00 – 1:59

   Trailer

   1. SHDr. Samantha Hiew0:00

      Autism in women doesn't look the same as what we conventionally know as autism. There are so much nuances that we do not know how to cater for, because while psychiatry is looking at these traits and seeing if people match these traits, we are humans who actually fit into a totally different box.

   2. APAlex Partridge0:17

      Dr. Samantha Hiew is a highly specialized female ADHD and Autism expert with a PhD in medical sciences With a glowing background in the science of neurodiversity She's using her vast knowledge to help you feel seen and understood

   3. SHDr. Samantha Hiew0:30

      If we want to do well in our relationships, there needs to be a very careful assessment on the power dynamics inside each relationship. If we go into relationships expect it to be safe, expecting to be nurtured, to be helped, there's a chance that one person is gonna do more of the emotional labor. But can you both be responsible for how you feel and then actually come to an agreement that actually both look after each other's energy?

   4. APAlex Partridge0:54

      Is there a warning sign that someone might be about to have a meltdown, or is it quite specific to if there is an unexpected gear change?

   5. SHDr. Samantha Hiew1:00

      A lot of the time

   6. APAlex Partridge1:02

      Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in, and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Dr. Samantha Hiew.

   7. SHDr. Samantha Hiew1:41

      Hi, Alex. [laughs]

   8. APAlex Partridge1:42

      Thank you so much for joining us today to talk all about AuDHD, which is the dual diagnosis of autism and ADHD. Just to set the foundation, Samantha, you've spoken to h- lots of people with autism and ADHD.

2. 1:59 – 4:53

   Common AuDHD struggles

   1. APAlex Partridge1:59

      Could you tell us, like, a, a common struggle that they all might deal with?

   2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew2:04

      Yeah. So thanks for asking that question. And thanks for having me back. [laughs] It's so lovely to see you again. Um, so there is a broad diversity of experiences, obviously, in the AuDHD community, uh, whether that difference is, is in gender or life stages and context. But there seems to be a unifying trait in terms of our challenges in s- shifting gears, you know, switching gears from, like, whether from a broader term of needing freedom and craving freedom, but actually need routine at the same time, and that shift between, like, being quite inflexible and rigid to being more flexible. And that can be seen, like, say, when you have a plan in mind, and then something happens that changes that plan, and you find it really hard to change gears, you know? And that difference in what is expected of you to be more flexible when you have, like, that, like, short moment of notice, that is the bit that I notice, even myself, in everyone that has, you know, is AuDHD. You know, and I find it quite validating because some people might show it in terms of, like, yeah, changing plans or, you know, like, uh, it can manifest as time blindness when you're doing something, and you're like, "Oh, actually I need to move to the other thing now." But then, you know, you're still focused on doing that thing, so.

   3. APAlex Partridge3:34

      It's such a, it's such a common point, I think. I mean, and if someone's forced into that position, like, if, if there is a last-minute plan which is completely out of the person's control, if they are essentially forced to change gear, like a train's canceled and suddenly they're not gonna be where they wanted to be, or someone cancels dinner plans, or someone knocks on their door without them realizing, what can that look like in someone with AuDHD if they're forced to change gears?

   4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew4:00

      Yeah. So with AuDHD, you have both the autism and the ADHD traits. So when you're in that ADHD chaos, then if someone tells you, "Oh, something's changed last minute," you know, "Can you, like, get this structure in?" you can feel really overwhelmed. And say, if you're in more of that rigid, you know, autism, everything's planned, controlled, then if someone tells you, "Actually, can you be more flexible?" you know, "There's this change," and you're going to shut down if that is repeatedly, repeatedly asked of you, um, your nervous system is trying to work out [laughs] what to do-

   5. APAlex Partridge4:39

      [laughs]

   6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew4:39

      ... 'cause there is a collision between, like, just control and chaos. And in that collision, we sometimes just don't know who we are, [laughs] you know, and why we can't just switch, you know, as easily as, as other people.

3. 4:53 – 7:13

   AuDHD meltdown explained

   1. APAlex Partridge4:54

      And th- th- these collisions, can that... Y- you said shut down. Is that s- the same as a meltdown?

   2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew5:00

      It's a bit different because with shut down, it's not externalized. It's more internalized. When you shut down, you tend to not be able to verbalize sometimes. It can be situational mutism, where you suddenly do not know what to say, but then you feel like being by yourself, and you need to be, you know, just think it over or process it. Whereas a meltdown is more, oh, it's more externalized. It can look like rage. It can, you know, look like outbursts and it can look like frustration, you know? 'Cause that is quite different, I feel.

   3. APAlex Partridge5:34

      Mm-hmm. And the presentation of this meltdown, h- is there any specific s- warnings that that might be up and coming? Like, is there a warning sign that someone might be h- about to have a meltdown, or is it quite specific to if there is an unexpected mood, uh, gear change?

   4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew5:53

      It's, it's, um, a lot of the time, it comes like a tsunami-

   5. APAlex Partridge5:57

      Mm

   6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew5:58

      ... because all of these little triggers have already happened so long before the actual meltdown. And because, um, if you add, you know, effective empathy, where we are absorbing-You know, demands and requests and messages without actually acting or reacting to it in the moment, and then that kind of builds up. And we're trying to adapt, 'cause AuDHders are massive shape-shifters. I believe that we are trying to either give people what they need from us or try and hide from it, [laughs] you know? It feels as though, like, okay, so there's one way that we're expected to act here, and then you try to give that way, but over time, when that accumulates inside you, that outburst can be very surprising-

   7. APAlex Partridge6:47

      Mm

   8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew6:47

      ... to people. Because that outburst can be a mixture of internalized, you know, s- inner critique or it could also be sensory overwhelm. You know, because there is a level of, uh, sensory overwhelm that can come with needing to deal with all these thoughts and emotions, and, and also then having to deal with the people who are asking those things of you. So the meltdown can come as a surprise.

4. 7:13 – 9:19

   Is masking more common in AuDHD

   1. APAlex Partridge7:13

      Do you think with these meltdowns and the, the confusions that might come with a, a mind that has many contradictions, do you think people with AuDHD mask more than somebody who might just be ADHD or just autistic?

   2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew7:27

      Yeah. I do believe that. I think actually, um, AuDHders have a very plastic, uh, brain, and our internal environments are so in flux, and it's always responding to what is happening outside of us. And because of that, from a very, very young age, we have learned to have to rapidly think on our feet, you know, how to be normal. [laughs] And that can be as simple as, oh, you go into a classroom, you can't hear what people are saying 'cause you have auditory processing differences, and you're trying to just look like you understand. You know, maybe verbal instructions don't work for you, and then you are trying to look like, "I got that," you know? [laughs] But then you didn't understand anything, and you don't know what to do, and so there is this, like, internal stress response that's going on. But over time, though, like, that makes you think, like, "Oh, I need to just adapt to be able to survive."

   3. APAlex Partridge8:24

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew8:24

      And that survival response is so strong that the very being, you know, of being the AuDHD neurotype and the way of being will predispose us to trauma on our nervous system, and that trauma causes us to mask, camouflage, adapt, become what is needed in order to survive. And, and then we get the later in life diagnosis, where actually what I found is that the identity piece is so center to our late diagnosis, um, journey, because then we wonder, "Who are we underneath this mask?"

   5. APAlex Partridge9:07

      It sounds like a very effective strategy to fit in in the short term, but ultimately, this higher propensity to mask sounds very exhausting.

5. 9:19 – 11:08

   AuDHD and social burnout

   1. APAlex Partridge9:19

      Do we see people with AuDHD go through this cycle of social interactions, overthinking, and then a burnout? Do you see that more in the AuDHD community?

   2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew9:30

      Yeah. I ran the AuDHD women's survey to listen to our collective voices, and many... The predominant, um, result that came back was around how we may not always be able to work out what people's intentions are.

   3. APAlex Partridge9:46

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew9:47

      And then that in itself is quite anxiety-provoking, 'cause you don't know what people need from you. You don't know what to do in order to give, you know, to be the right way in order to be accepted. And because AuDHD women also are wired to look for social rewards and are wired to mask, actually, that can be very, very confusing. And over time, you know, people can end up adopting this mask, that in their words, they have said that the mask have become them, and they don't even know who they are anymore. You know, then there is that, um, people who are also mislabeled early on and get mismedicated quite heavily.

   5. APAlex Partridge10:30

      Mm.

   6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew10:31

      You know, and then they get to age of 40 or 50s, and they're like, "I wanna stop my medication," [laughs] you know? And I was like, "Well, just check with a psychiatrist," 'cause, um, there are, you know, obviously, um, changes that are gonna happen to you if you've been on a medication for so long and then not. Um, people really wanna dig deep and find out who they are.

   7. APAlex Partridge10:53

      You mentioned AuDHD women, uh, Samantha, and I know that 85% of people who listen to this podcast are women, um, a community who have been let down and missed for so long. With ADHD and autism

6. 11:08 – 13:03

   Why many AuDHD women are missed

   1. APAlex Partridge11:08

      in mind, AuDHD, why do you think so many AuDHD women have been missed for so long?

   2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew11:14

      Um, it's, uh, such a good question, because the fact that people didn't diagnose both ADHD and autism together, it was not believed to be a co-occurring condition until 2013. So the diagnostic criteria that we're using is still very much gender-biased and also biased towards the childhood experience. And at the moment, every time you go for a diagnosis, most clinics would only, you know, provide one or the other, but not do a dual diagnosis assessment. And we know very recently, you know, after Gina Rippon, uh, published her book, The Lost Girls of Autism, that autism in women doesn't look the same as what we conventionally know as autism, which is very much catered to the child, you know, the white boy experience, the Young Sheldon, and, yeah, from... And, and also Big Bang Theory.

   3. APAlex Partridge12:15

      Mm.

   4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew12:15

      So, so yeah, so-There are so much nuances that we do not know how to cater for, because while psychiatry is looking at these traits and seeing if people match these traits, we are humans who actually fit into a totally different box. And actually, it was nice to know recently that there, there is a box, actually, that looks like us. And when I found out about the AuDHD experience, it was, uh, not just that we have different brain dynamics, but we also are now known to be an entirely different class of autism subtypes. There was a paper that was released in July where they looked at, uh, 5,000 children, look at the genes, uh, the variants, um,

7. 13:03 – 17:22

   4 sub-types of autism (new research)

   1. SHDr. Samantha Hiew13:03

      in autistic children, and they found that there were at least four different subtypes of autism. And the first one is around social and behavioral challenges, those who could, um, develop mental health challenges, but then do not necessarily show developmental delay, and they may actually reach, you know, development around the same time as those without autism. And it's funny because, like, it is now, like, known as a subtype, uh, of autism, but what we conventionally know is more the broadly affected autism, uh, phenotype. So the social and behavioral challenges one, they make up about 34% of the population, whereas the broadly affected, uh, the autism that we know that has, uh, repetitive behavior, interests, social communication challenges, um, mental health, you know, depression, anxiety, they make up 10% of the population. Which is so interesting-

   2. APAlex Partridge13:59

      Mm

   3. SHDr. Samantha Hiew13:59

      ... because the people like us, who were able to mask and hide our challenges because it's all internalized, but then we develop, like, really quite severe challenges around social and mental health, you know. But we've been flying under the radar for so long, you know. So many people have struggled needlessly because we were just waiting for the science to catch up, and not only that, we were waiting for the clinics to catch up with what it means to live, you know, as a human who perhaps have not only autism, not only ADHD, but AuDHD and mental health, uh, differences. You know, and the thing is, this shows that there needs to be a shift from looking at people through these traits that are perhaps now quite obsolete, to looking at us as humans-

   4. APAlex Partridge14:51

      Mm

   5. SHDr. Samantha Hiew14:52

      ... with nuances through a trauma-informed lens and an intersectional lens.

   6. APAlex Partridge14:57

      So the injustice continues. So many adults have potentially been going to their doctors, um, and that doctor might be assessing them based off a criteria that is woefully out of date at best, and inaccurate at worst.

   7. SHDr. Samantha Hiew15:13

      Yeah.

   8. APAlex Partridge15:13

      Um, how far off do you think we are from seeing these four subtypes being taken into account when people go for an assessment?

   9. SHDr. Samantha Hiew15:20

      Well, I think there needs to be different fields and disciplines coming together in order to really bring this to the fore, because there are the scientists who are studying this in the lab, there are the lived experience, um, you know, people who live with ADHD and autism, and then there are people who treat and diagnose, you know, those of us, but we don't speak to each other.

   10. APAlex Partridge15:45

       Mm.

   11. SHDr. Samantha Hiew15:46

       You know? [laughs] So having medium like yours, you know, being able to broadcast to these different groups, you know, will kind of spark this curiosity, you know. 'Cause I had to advocate so hard for myself to get the autism diagnosis, which took seven months, and in that seven months, I was invalidated three times, and they kept saying that my autism was down to trauma 'cause I was also going through, like, life changes, like separation and divorce and relational, um, trauma. So there was a lot on my plate. And then they chose to then see it as trauma because I could hold a conversation. You know, we were talking about autism.

   12. APAlex Partridge16:30

       Mm.

   13. SHDr. Samantha Hiew16:30

       I'm like, "Yay," [laughs] you know? "Talk to me anytime." And they said I was, um, I look professional. I was, like, high-achieving. So then that was also something that was used against me, you know, 'cause I then looked like I could hold eye contact, you know, because I was talking about something I'm so intensely interested in. But, um, I've also known of men who fly below the threshold, you know, where they're assessed and they're like, "Oh, you show a lot of autistic traits," or like, but then you don't fulfill the clinical threshold. So that's where it gets really interesting, because we're looking at the clinical threshold for autism, but then what if the person's AuDHD?

   14. APAlex Partridge17:08

       This might be an oversimplified question, Sam, based off what you've just said about these new four subtypes, but if someone's listening and they are ADHD, or they suspect that they're ADHD, um, but they have their suspicions that they might be AuDHD,

8. 17:22 – 19:56

   Common signs of AuDHD

   1. APAlex Partridge17:22

      are there some common traits that might be a sign of AuDHD?

   2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew17:30

      Yeah. So, um, I think we talked about the shape- shape-shifting one, because there are four different subtypes. So I only talk about two of them before, which is the social behavioral challenges, the first group, and then there's the broadly affected autism, the 10%, and then there is the mixed ASD with the developmental delay. So these, uh, children tend to start off in life with a delay in speech and walking, but, um, they, they also may have some level of mental health challenges. And then there are those that maybe show a milder form of autism that have some of the general autistic traits, but don't actually have mental health challenges, which is really interesting because then, like, you can actually tell the difference. Like, this paper specifically did not look at the gene variants from the start. They looked at how people behave across different developmental timelines, you know, and they, they grouped these people. So it's interesting 'cause within the neurodiverse community, you get those who say, "Oh, but I don't ever mask," you know? [laughs] You know? And then they're like, "I'm always very literal," you know? And then you get those who are like, "Yeah, we're gonna adapt to whatever comes," you know? Like, I mean-

   3. APAlex Partridge18:35

      [laughs]

   4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew18:35

      ... like, we're just gonna shape-shift and be someone else just so that you can-

   5. APAlex Partridge18:39

      Mm

   6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew18:39

      ... love us, you know, and be with us. And then, and then you get that broad diversity that you're like, "Okay, then who am I?" You know? Then you, when you start doing the research and you start grouping people to different groups, you know, then actually, this is really interesting, because what the paper showed, uh, I think it was published in Nature Genetics, it showed that if you look at how these, um, people go through life, what is different about them is that, um, the gene mutations that arises will defer, will, will differ through their developmental timelines. Some of these, um, groups, they only develop these mutations later in life, and when their life circumstances actually call for those changes to happen.

   7. APAlex Partridge19:23

      Mm.

   8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew19:24

      So actually, in at least two of those groups, whatever you do in your life from moment to moment is gonna determine how you present, you know? And that changes everything, 'cause when you think about neurodevelopmental conditions, it's not just in the brain, it exists in the body, and, you know, it's not just mental health conditions that we co- we have, we also have physical co-occurring conditions. And I think how these physical co-occurring conditions manifest, you know, is actually a result of what you do on a day-to-day

9. 19:56 – 21:02

   Tiimo advert

   1. SHDr. Samantha Hiew19:56

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   2. APAlex Partridge19:56

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10. 21:02 – 23:12

    Life events that trigger AuDHD traits

    1. APAlex Partridge21:02

       off. Just a note, though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. What are some key life events you mentioned there, like some key life events, I don't know if trigger is the right word, but key triggers, key life events that could bring m- more AuDHD-specific traits to the surface?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew21:20

       Uh, definitely any life ch- transitions that can activate your stress response, and whether it's psych... You know, when you come to think about stress, what causes stress is, um, can be mental, physical, psychological, and yeah, so any, or emotional. So, um, maybe you move country, and then suddenly you have a diet of baked beans and potato chips. [laughs] Whereas-

    3. APAlex Partridge21:46

       Yeah

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew21:46

       ... maybe previously you could have, um, more nourishment, you know. Maybe that, that's what happened to me when I moved halfway around the world at age 23. I went from being very well-nourished to living on a diet that was a student diet, and that massively changed everything. You know, what your social circle might have changed. Suddenly you're adopting, um, like a heavy drinking lifestyle, partying, or you're not having as much sleep, you know, that causes stress to the system. And say, uh, you're going through a life, a huge life transition, like maybe pregnancy, after childbirth, that impacts your hormones. Um, and also if you're going through a divorce, like, like I did, it was massively, actually really tough, and [laughs] that affects everything. So there's this physical, emotional stress. Uh, you know, it's, it's like there's so much in there, you know, and I feel like once we know what, what we're dealing with, then we know actually what the situation is doing to us, and we can then make adjustments.

    5. APAlex Partridge22:47

       Mm. Do you see any common clashes between the ADHD side of the brain versus the autistic side of the brain? For example, I think that I, I perhaps crave stimulation but get easily overstimulated, or I really like working in a clean environment, but I struggle to maintain that cleanliness. And to me, that's a sign, I'm not AuDHD diagnosed, I, I suspect I would get an autistic diagnosis too if I went

11. 23:12 – 25:33

    How ADHD clashes with Autism

    1. APAlex Partridge23:12

       for one. But do you think there are some glaringly obvious clashes within the mind of someone who has AuDHD?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew23:19

       Yeah, absolutely. It's like, um, it's so interesting 'cause I looked into the brain dynamics of, um, someone with AuDHD, and you are at one point really valuing, you know, this calm stability, but you also crave excitement and changes. You know? And it's like your brain's c- and your body, your nervous system is constantly trying to work out what it's gonna need. So at any one time you could be understimulated or overstimulated. And yeah, you, you almost go in search for that change when you have stability, and then when you have stability, um, and then when, when, when you have change, you crave calm.

    3. APAlex Partridge24:01

       Mm.

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew24:02

       You know, that's definitely, yeah, a challenge for my life.

    5. APAlex Partridge24:05

       So fascinating, so interesting. And, and when these clashes happen, can that be too much in certain moments? In other words, can that cause, like, a paralysis, like a physical paralysis in the person who might be dealing with those clashes?

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew24:20

       Yeah, there's, there certainly can. Like, there's this overwhelmed of there's all these signals coming from everywhere. What do I do? You know, like from what I have learned anyway about AuDHD, I think, um, it was, like, highly agreed that we need external accountability to be able to, like, move forward, especially when you're trying to make decisions. [laughs]

    7. APAlex Partridge24:41

       Yes [laughs]

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew24:41

       I actually famously used my VA to make decisions for two years-

    9. APAlex Partridge24:44

       [laughs]

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew24:45

        ... without asking her to do any admin. I was like, "What do you think of this?"

    11. APAlex Partridge24:48

        [laughs]

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew24:48

        "What do I do here?" You know, it's like you're constantly trying to work out, oh, f- what to do, you know, and what is the right way, and actually, a lot of this journey has been-

    13. APAlex Partridge24:57

        Mm

    14. SHDr. Samantha Hiew24:57

        ... going deeper and understanding how to trust myself is, um... Yeah, but then having a coach is so, is so great, like, 'cause then they f- help you figure out what you want. Mm.

    15. APAlex Partridge25:08

        Yeah. I always struggle to think what I want for dinner, like, what I, what I, what I want to eat. It's such an exhausting thought process. [laughs]

    16. SHDr. Samantha Hiew25:14

        Yeah.

    17. APAlex Partridge25:14

        And I feel like there's a lot of shame in these behaviors. Like, as a grown adult, I should be able to decide what I want to eat. I should be able to remember that parking ticket. I should be able to do X, Y, or Zed that society has sort of taught me is what, uh, a person of 36 years old should be able to do.

12. 25:33 – 27:31

    Do AuDHD people feel more shame

    1. APAlex Partridge25:33

       Do you think within the AuDHD community there is a heightened level of shame?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew25:37

       Yeah, certainly, because that shame, you think about it, is something that we c- that arise in us not from here, but from day one, from how we were raised, so that shame can come from the people around us, you know, in the way that they made us feel. And in my, uh, work as, um, somebody who trains mental health professionals on the intersectional lens, 'cause that shame can also come from cultural control, where people expect, you know, all the members of that culture to act a certain way, and if people go out of line in that, then they could be blamed for reasons then the AuDHD, the Au- AuDHD individual doesn't even understand. So over time, that shame can manifest as archetypes that look like perfectionists, people-pleasing, you know, lone wolf, um, in- hyper independent. You know, it's all these adaptive strategies th- that we end up, you know, actually just becoming, like, a different person that actually ends up working against who we are. So then shame can turn into internalized ableism, where we expect ourself to be okay with things, to not ask for support, and also then expect the people around us to be perfect, you know? And that can cause problems in relationship, 'cause whatever shame that we bring into every part of our lives, you know, can affect us.

    3. APAlex Partridge27:05

       There's, like, this higher propensity to, to be perfect and, and you almost feel a bit different, probably more different, I imagine, than, than a, a singular diagnosis. Someone with AuDHD might feel more different, and there- therefore, there's this greater internal need to mask and fit in. If someone sees through that, if someone sees through the perfect version that you're trying to put out in the world and, and criticizes

13. 27:31 – 29:25

    Do AuDHD people feel RSD more intensely

    1. APAlex Partridge27:31

       you, whether that's a real one or a perceived one, is the reaction to a perceived or real criticism or a rejection heightened as well in someone with AuDHD?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew27:41

       Yeah, because, uh, we're also dealing with the biology of, um, being born with an AuDHD neurotype, where we are more sensitive to threat detection, you know, and thr- and pattern detection, actually-

    3. APAlex Partridge27:54

       Mm

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew27:54

       ... before trauma occurs, and then threat detection afterwards. And we have that, um, like, a more strengthened activation of the anterior insula and the default mode network, without being able to tap into the prefrontal network, you know, the pre- prefrontal cortex to figure out what that criticism or message actually means. So while you're ruminating and charging the RSD in you, your brain isn't really necessarily able to tap into that, uh, rational thinking. "Oh, actually, this is why they do that, you know, A, B, and C." But then that RSD [laughs] can feel like, "But I don't deserve that, because actually, I mean really well. You know, this is what I mean, although this is my facade." You know, and that's the facade everyone sees.

    5. APAlex Partridge28:46

       Mm.

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew28:46

       And you feel misunderstood all the time. You feel like, "What am I d- even doing this?" You know, "Can I just crawl into a hole?" It's, um, it's difficult, and my journey now is to bring out that internal state to the front and just try and integrate this, what people see and what is actually happening inside me, so that, I guess, in, in the end, so many people I speak to in an AuDHD community are talking about authenticity, you know, to be able to be ourselves on purpose, and actually being loved for us-

    7. APAlex Partridge29:17

       Mm

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew29:17

       ... it's, it's invaluable.

    9. APAlex Partridge29:19

       And with someone with AuDHD sort of dealing with all of these complexities that we're discussing, uh, is that type of person...

14. 29:25 – 30:54

    Are AuDHD people hard to live with

    1. APAlex Partridge29:26

       Uh, it's gonna sound... Are they hard to live with? Are they... Uh, what, what challenges might come with a person like that, for example, in a romantic relationship?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew29:37

       I guess it's, it, it really goes down to do you trust yourself? Do you accept yourself? And if you accept yourself, are you compassionate towards your traits, or are you ashamed of them? Because the self-shame can then be transferred to our partners, where we then expect them to nurture us, but not take personal responsibility. So between human to human, anyway, human to human relationships, I feel like there, first, especially when it comes to neurodivergence, there needs to be an alignment in where we stand in our values and what we value to be true, what we value, you know, to happen, you know, in our personal relationships. Because when our values are aligned, we feel safer. We're happier with, uh, each other. But yeah, when that isn't v- aligned, then there are potentially, you know, challenges that can occur-

    3. APAlex Partridge30:37

       Mm

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew30:37

       ... from that to begin with. But then also, then, how do you, what do you bring into that relationship? Are you-Are you radically accepting yourself, or are you expecting someone to support you through what you haven't worked out, you know?

15. 30:54 – 36:14

    How to support AuDHD in relationships

    1. APAlex Partridge30:54

       And how would someone support someone with AuDHD in a relationship? Uh, is it, is it simply about approaching it with curiosity rather than judgment? Is it, um, reassuring them that their behavior can be confusing, but it's not their fault?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew31:10

       It's an interesting one, because my view on relationships now is very, very different, and you're probably not gonna get it f- from, like, any books because it's from real experience. I feel like, you know, eternally, i- if we want to do well in our relationships, there needs to be a very careful assessment on the power dynamics inside each relationship. If we go into relationships expect it to be safe, expecting to be nurtured, to be helped, then there's a chance that one person is gonna do more of the emotional labor, you know? But can you both, like, be responsible for how you feel and then actually come to an agreement that actually there are times when you just can't, you know, control how you come across. Some of the actions may look like you go from zero to 100, but there's a real reason behind it. You know, can you both look after each other's energy, you know, and be responsible for your own? Because ultimately, no matter what we want to do for the other person, if we don't have the energy to do it, then we won't do it, you know, and eventually resentment builds, and then one person's carrying more of the labor than the other. Then what do we do? You know, 'cause we know that... From my research, AuDHD women say they mask even in personal relationships, and when that happens, I talked about the science behind masking, where our frontal lobes are gradually trying to s- you know, work out what to do with the actions that we see. And already our frontal lobe isn't always working that well, so it adds an extra load. And then our salience network is looking for threats on any differences in gestures, differences in tones, and what to associate with that. The RSD heightens, the default n- network spirals, and, and then we try to look like we're okay with that.

    3. APAlex Partridge33:01

       Mm.

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew33:02

       [laughs] You know? "Hello. What do you want for dinner?"

    5. APAlex Partridge33:04

       [laughs]

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew33:05

       You know? And then, like, you are unaware that this masking is causing you so much duress inside. And we try to overcome biology, but at the end of the day, if something that you're doing isn't aligned with your internal autonomy, then it-

    7. APAlex Partridge33:20

       Mm

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew33:20

       ... is not going to work. You are going to gradually feel more stress, and when you are at a certain life stage like I am, you just don't really have the bandwidth for extra stress like this, you know? And, and then that- that's why I say ultimately relationships need to be fair. Um, understanding our way of being has really helped me, like, figure out how to do this. I'm still trying to find and create that kind of relationship, so not perfect, so.

    9. APAlex Partridge33:49

       The sensitivities to rejection, I, I can see it causing problems in relationships. Your partner could come home from work and the door slams slightly heavier than is normal, um, or you sense a slight change in their tone of voice when they ask you what you want for dinner. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that they hate you. That's the, that's the seriousness or, and the visceralness of RSD sometimes, and the anxiety that that can create, especially if you're masking so much. You almost want to unmask in front of your partner because that's what you should feel safe to do, but there's this anxiety that, what if they don't like the authentic version of you? What if the version of you that they've fallen in love with has been an illusion, and the true you, the one that's desperate to come out, is scared of what they might think of it?

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew34:38

        Mm.

    11. APAlex Partridge34:39

        Do you think there's an anxiety there that y- you want to unmask in a relationship, but at the same time, there is a fear of, of your partner not liking what comes out?

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew34:47

        Oh, yeah, absolutely, especially as, like, the research really shows us that, um, people mask in their relationships, you know, even the closest ones. And, you know, to an extent, I think it depends how much you want that relationship and why do you want that relationship for. You know, does it fulfill, like, the stability, you know, kinda help you feel more safe, or does it make you feel alive and you're hoping, you know, the person will see you in a certain light? And in my experience, it is so much better to own up with who you are from-

    13. APAlex Partridge35:18

        Mm

    14. SHDr. Samantha Hiew35:19

        ... the very beginning, because then you're not hiding anything, and if people aren't aligned, they can just go. And if they are, then, you know, that, that really helps. But that also then means that there are less chance of you going into a relationship with anyone-

    15. APAlex Partridge35:36

        [laughs] Yeah

    16. SHDr. Samantha Hiew35:37

        ... because, [laughs] like, 'cause you kind of are looking for the person who can actually take you exactly as you are, and that, that depends on where you are with your own self, right?

    17. APAlex Partridge35:48

        To confess to your partner early on who you really are requires a self-awareness of you knowing yourself who you are, right? And what if someone's listening to this and, and they think, "I'm ADHD," or, "I'm autistic," and then they hear a conversation like this, and suddenly they get thrown into this thought process of, "Oh my God, maybe now I'm AuDHD," or, "Maybe I have been masking my whole life. I have no idea who I really

16. 36:14 – 41:40

    How to begin unmasking

    1. APAlex Partridge36:14

       am." How does someone start their own personal journey of self-awareness? How do they start understanding who they really are?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew36:24

       So that's a very interesting question, because if you meet somebody and you own up with who you are at that time point, then you kind of attract people who are at, well, they say the same level of wounds, but also maybe the same level of awareness. 'Cause they, they say people also leave relationships when their partners are no longer on the same growth timeline as them.You know, some people leave when they realize they don't wanna be this person anymore, and my partner isn't able to let that go, and then I've gotta leave, you know? Personally, I f- I think that actually the people that come to you at certain time points of your life will meet you in the self-awareness that you know about yourself at that time, you know? And that can either help you go on that journey or stop it very quickly.

    3. APAlex Partridge37:11

       Mm.

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew37:12

       Right? And for me, my journey really started, uh, from understanding my biology 'cause for a really long time I was trapped in my head. I thought, "If I can just figure out what this is, you know, I find out about the science of ADHD and how we come to be, then I'll crack it," you know? And then it came to a point where I was eating all the right things, you know, I was taking all the right supplements, and I was all right, but my relationship wasn't really working because I didn't know how much stress I was unknowingly bringing upon myself by, I guess, masking in a relationship.

    5. APAlex Partridge37:51

       Mm.

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew37:51

       But also, we were both masking [laughs] because we both wanted to be accepted, and we're potentially both AuDHD. So how you know about yourself, my journey in self-awareness, is that ADHD, AuDHD, is a mind-body relational paradigm, and it's not enough to just know about your mind or your body. You should know how to foster these relationships and keep them and nurture them. And right now, to be fair to anyone, I feel like we need to be able to, like, understand what drains us, what fills our cup, and also be fair to the other person, you know, what we expect and want because the other person may also be navigating what drains and fills their cup.

    7. APAlex Partridge38:37

       Mm.

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew38:38

       Um, you know, we need to have these open conversations, and it sounds the least romantic, but it is necessary to keep a relationship alive.

    9. APAlex Partridge38:47

       We've spoken a lot, Samantha, about masking, and I, I guess in relationships or from an early age with AuDHD, there might be a higher propensity to mask. And I suppose masking is, by its very nature, it's almost rejecting your true self in order to fit in, um, probably because you feel different. Um, w- but why do you think there is such a negativity towards feeling different, or i- is, is fitting in a, a innate human instinct to want to do?

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew39:17

        I guess it's, uh, it's because we are different. You know, like, and we know that difference. We feel it very early on. You know, I, I feel for my children going into school where, like, my son is really quite anxious about people, and even if he knows his friends, like, you know, starting school, in the second year being there, he's still aware of he can't just be free when he feels, like, meltdown. You know, he's, he's like, "This environment's too loud." He has to hide it, and that gives him so much anxiety. More so, I mentioned just now about potentially not hearing what people need from you and not remembering it, not being able to recall. It's like every moment of your very young life you're reminded of how you couldn't get with the program, and that has been a huge thing for me 'cause until today, if someone tells me the verbal instruction to do anything, I will not hear it, and I struggle for a really long time. Why can't I hear it? Um, that is partly AuDHD, but it's partly also me. And, and then we do need to hear people. [laughs] We do need to know what is expected of us in order to, you know, study, work. You know, our livelihood depends on it, our relationships we thought depends on that. You know, so we mask for survival and to adapt, to be like everyone else. But actually, later in life, we know that that also causes us harm.

    11. APAlex Partridge40:46

        Mm.

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew40:47

        So how do we still, you know, mask [laughs] for our own safety but still become, like, quite authentic? And my answer is to mask only when it aligns with my values, you know, and, yeah, never do anything that will harm me or other people.

    13. APAlex Partridge41:07

        Mm.

    14. SHDr. Samantha Hiew41:07

        That's, that's, that's how I see it.

    15. APAlex Partridge41:09

        But if, if masking is so exhausting, I can imagine someone with AuDHD, you get home from a long day masking at work, and you get back to your home, and you, you sort of slam the door, and you lean against it, and, uh, and you're just so exhausted.

    16. SHDr. Samantha Hiew41:21

        Mm.

    17. APAlex Partridge41:21

        You've got nothing left, and you end up not knowing who you are. Like I said, you've almost betrayed your s- true self. That's the cost of fitting in, is to betray your s- true self, and the c- and that leads to low self-esteem because you don't have confidence in yourself because you

17. 41:40 – 44:44

    The link between AuDHD and depression

    1. APAlex Partridge41:40

       don't know who you really are. Is, is there a heightened link of AuDHD with depression?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew41:45

       Oh, yeah, 100%. Um, the very neurotype, right, being born with, uh, an autistic and ADHD mind is that, um, not just the brain dynamics are different, the neurotransmitters are also at a level that isn't one that is always okay. So I wanted to be really careful, not like it's dysregulated, you know? And it is, that is an imbalance. You know, we talked about dopamine, norepinephrine, but there's oxytocin, GABA, glutamate, you know, the, the, the excitation and the inhibitory function [laughs] in our brain. So there's also that serotonin, right, that, um, many autistic, ADHDers and autistic individuals, they may have a dysregulated serotonin system, and that dysregulated serotonin system can actually bring upon, yes, a state of feeling low, flat. And when we encounter RSD, when it's internalized, it can also look like depression. When we burn out, it can also look like depression. And then when it's, um-When it's the other way round, you know, when it's too much in our pr- in, in, in, in our neurotype, then we can feel anxious and hypervigilant and panic, you know. So I talk about the AuDHD dopamine curve, and it's not just dopamine, it's actually all the molecules that are involved in a stress response. The curve, you know, is where you find a sweet spot in the middle, where it is very narrow, the AuDHD sweet spot. So at any one time, we could flip to hypoarousal, where we're under-stimulated, or hyperarousal, where we're hyper-stimulated. And, and that leads us to find a way to self-medicate, to be in this zone of balance, and it is a very steep one, so a na- a, a, a narrow zone. So what is more important for us on a day-to-day basis is to regulate our nervous system, and-

    3. APAlex Partridge43:49

       Mm

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew43:49

       ... that is almost like a way of life.

    5. APAlex Partridge43:52

       And what might someone self-medicate with if they're in that position?

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew43:56

       It depends. I guess it's like if you find it hard to s- be stimulated, then you might look for caffeine. You know, or if you're feeling lonely, then you might look for connection. And the oldest drug of choice, right? Um, [laughs] Coca-Cola, people.

    7. APAlex Partridge44:14

       [laughs]

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew44:14

       Um, uh, food, I think sugar is a big one, carbs. Um, but then when you feel overstimulated, some people might reach for calming substances, whether it's alcohol or, like, a s- what, what is that? It's like a weed. [laughs]

    9. APAlex Partridge44:35

       Yeah. [laughs]

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew44:36

        Marijuana. Um, yeah, there are other ways now.

    11. APAlex Partridge44:41

        Mm.

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew44:41

        You know, people go microdosing, so.

    13. APAlex Partridge44:43

        Do you think the AuDHD

18. 44:44 – 48:48

    Is AuDHD a lonely experience

    1. APAlex Partridge44:44

       experience is quite a lonely experience?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew44:47

       It can be, because you are constantly... Actually, you want to have connection, but then you also struggle to maintain that connection. So people might go, "Oh, I can deal with connection in a short burst, in a reasonable amount of time, because I need to just be my m- by myself, center." 'Cause it can, you know, being with someone else can also kickstart that masking. [laughs] So we want to be with people who actually help us mask less, as, as, as, as little as possible. So then, yeah, it's a, it can be a lonely experience, because then we find ourselves by ourselves most of the time, and then wonder why we don't have many friends. [laughs] And then realize when we actually do have friends, how overstimulating that is.

    3. APAlex Partridge45:33

       Mm.

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew45:34

       Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a tough one, but, you know, I guess, yeah, that is, um, the journey, I guess. But also, 'cause we are trying to work out who our people are, you know? For some people, you may feel like, after your diagnosis, you're like, "Why am I even friends with you?" [laughs] And, "I wanna look for new friends." And, you know, especially also relationships, you know, they might come and go, and some people might want more authentic relationships.

    5. APAlex Partridge46:01

       Do you feel like someone with AuDHD, as they get older, they're, they might be less lonely? Like, their 30s might be more sociable than their 20s, because maybe their early teens, their late teens, their 20s, they might very, be isolated, very anxious to go out. But as you, as you get your self-awareness, you sort of find your tribe, and then you sort of make up for lost time in your 30s, because you have this new sort of self power to, to, to go out with these people that you, you feel comfortable with.

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew46:30

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think it depends on your particular life stage, right? 'Cause I have friends in their 30s who have been through a hell of a lot already, and they were diagnosed maybe in their late 20s, and they've managed to reconstruct their entire lives. So the people who they hang out with now are more, like, align with, uh, their values and nervous system and way of life. And then you get people in their 40s and 50s who are perhaps, you know, still raising a family and have friendships, you know, by circumstances. And for someone like me, who, you know, went through a divorce and have found myself to feel quite like an outsider amongst, you know, my original group, when, you know, I am, I now have quite an unconventional setup. So I then, you know, set off on a, on a journey to find more people like me, who can accept me, who love me for who I am. And, and yeah, I can say that my friendships now are more authentic. I don't think it's less lonely, because you still have to live with yourself [laughs]

    7. APAlex Partridge47:36

       [laughs]

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew47:36

       ... most of the time. Um, but it does feel more aligned. Yeah, it is a process.

    9. APAlex Partridge47:43

       Do you think as someone with AuDHD ages, and they're coming to that state of their life where they're having to make quite, I say quite huge, life-changing decisions, whether to get married, whether to have children, whether to buy a house, can they really struggle with those big decisions and end up not making any decisions?

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew48:03

        Yeah, it can be, if you're trying to be conventional. [laughs] You know? I think some of us do put values in material gains and those, um, very important life milestones. But I think that goes outside of AuDHD, because yeah, there is that inherent way of being, but there are also, we all value different things also, you know?

    11. APAlex Partridge48:25

        Mm.

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew48:25

        Some of us may value more, like, uh, purpose and, you know, s- putting our time into a cause. Some people may value family more. You know, some people may value friendships, right? But so it, it is different. I, I guess that's what I'm saying.

    13. APAlex Partridge48:40

        Truly fascinating, Dr. Samantha. Um, just some closing advice really.

    14. SHDr. Samantha Hiew48:44

        Mm-hmm.

    15. APAlex Partridge48:44

        If someone's listening who might be struggling to get a diagnosis,

19. 48:48 – 51:11

    Closing advice

    1. APAlex Partridge48:48

       what advice would you have for that person to remind them that they're not broken?

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew48:54

       I guess you have to look for what adequately represent your existential challenges. You know, 'cause if you go-Look for a diagnosis, and the person you're going to doesn't understand your specific experience. And for me, it's from being a cross-cultural woman, you know, who can appear quite, uh, confident and high-achieving on the surface, but actually struggle with, yeah, men- men- mental health challenges from time to time. You know, w- who is going to be the likely person who will understand my experience? So I always look for representation, you know, and that's why I train, uh, mental health professionals and diagnosing clinicians on the intersectional and scientific lens-

    3. APAlex Partridge49:39

       Mm

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew49:40

       ... for AuDHD. And I find that having done that, you know, women and the professionals who join my program say that they are better able to then practice in a way that is with integrity, you know? And because it is your life stage, but also what is specific to you internally, right, that will determine whether you get the diagnosis or not, going to certain people. And for a woman, you are looking at not just the neurobiology, it's looking at how you have masked and camouflaged, what are the s- traits that people see on the surface, what hormonal life stage you're in, whether that's, um, you know, are you before pregnancy or childbirth or, you know, you're going into perimenopause and menopause, 'cause we know these are large hormonal transitions. What are your physical co-occurring conditions? [laughs] And th- there are so many layers. You can... And what are, what is the quality of your support network? You know, what is the quality of your relationship, the trauma you've been through, and then what are your strengths? Because those are the things that will help you, but can also mask the things that people are looking for.

    5. APAlex Partridge50:47

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew50:48

       So these are all the different layers that I talk about in the, in the framework that I teach.

    7. APAlex Partridge50:52

       Truly inspiring-

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew50:53

       Thank you

    9. APAlex Partridge50:53

       ... Samantha. Thank you so much.

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew50:55

        Thank you, Alex.

    11. APAlex Partridge50:56

        Normally, at this stage of the podcast, and avid fans will know, I ask [laughs] you to bring in an ADHD item and explain why it represents ADHD, but I forgot to ask you to bring one in, in true ADHD form, so we're gonna skip that section today. Normally, they all end up on the shelves

20. 51:11 – 53:54

    The washing machine of woes (ADHD agony aunt)

    1. APAlex Partridge51:11

       behind us.

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:11

       Yeah.

    3. APAlex Partridge51:11

       That's where they are.

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:12

       Yeah.

    5. APAlex Partridge51:12

       We're gonna jump straight to the ADHD agony aunt section, which is called the washing machine of woes. And it's called the washing machine of woes because my ADHD item is a washing machine, because I always leave my clothes in the machine after the cycle.

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:26

       Mm-hmm.

    7. APAlex Partridge51:26

       Do you do that?

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:28

       Oh, yeah, all the time.

    9. APAlex Partridge51:29

       Yes.

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:29

        Have to reset.

    11. APAlex Partridge51:30

        Makes me feel less alone.

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:31

        [laughs]

    13. APAlex Partridge51:32

        The machine is w- is sponsored by the Tiimo app. Um, and since using that, I've been, been a bit better, but still struggle to remember to ask my guests to bring in their ADHD [laughs] items. So sorry about that. [laughs]

    14. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:41

        That's okay.

    15. APAlex Partridge51:42

        Um-

    16. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:42

        Helps me. [laughs]

    17. APAlex Partridge51:44

        This week in the washing machine, Samantha, somebody has written in and asked, "I'm really worried that my conflicting moods and mood swings is bipolar. How can I know which it is and which is worse?"

    18. SHDr. Samantha Hiew51:57

        Yeah, so this is interesting. So many AuHDhers, uh, 'cause of the autistic and ADHD interaction and the nervous system collision and wanting, like, control and, you know, flexibility at the same time, that can shift, like, internally. You know, and for a woman, it can be more than genes, and it can be your hormonal changes that happen throughout the month or when you are at the life stage where you're naturally lower in some of the neurotransmitters that can regulate you. So if you wanna find out for sure if you hold any gene variants that could potentially predispose you to bipolar, you can do a genetic test. You know, there are gene variants that will, you know, show up on your DNA test to say whether you have ADHD, you know, we are potentially predisposed to ADHD or potentially predisposed to bipolar. But whether or not you do really depends on the spectrum, you know, that you lie on, and whether, you know, yeah, like I said, these biological transitions or your life transitions is bringing them out. You know, and I said a few things just now in terms of, like, the stress response that can, if you are living in a highly stressful situation, then you're more likely, you know, to be, like, kind of pulled towards this i- mania or hypomania states, you know, what, what looks like that, you know. But I guess, uh, even with bipolar, people have found that, um, there's certain medication for it. But then, like, when they also get diagnosed with ADHD, like often, you know, the treatment has to be quite inclusive-

    19. APAlex Partridge53:38

        Mm

    20. SHDr. Samantha Hiew53:38

        ... and holistic, you know, to what the person is, 'cause, um, especially with AuDHD, the advice is to start low and go slow, you know, with any medication or hormone th- therapies or anything we bring into our system.

    21. APAlex Partridge53:52

        Truly fascinating, Sam. Thank

21. 53:54 – 55:04

    3 rules to live by (a letter from the previous guest)

    1. APAlex Partridge53:54

       you so much.

    2. SHDr. Samantha Hiew53:55

       Thank you. It's really nice to talk to you.

    3. APAlex Partridge53:57

       Likewise. And just finally, um, did we do the letter from the previous guest on your last-

    4. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:02

       Yeah.

    5. APAlex Partridge54:02

       We did.

    6. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:03

       Sure.

    7. APAlex Partridge54:03

       Yeah. [laughs]

    8. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:03

       But I forgot.

    9. APAlex Partridge54:04

       So your, your-

    10. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:04

        Do I have to write one now?

    11. APAlex Partridge54:05

        Uh, I'm gonna deliver you one first.

    12. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:07

        Okay.

    13. APAlex Partridge54:07

        The last guest wrote, "Three rules to live by," and I'm gonna deliver you the letter now. I'll lean over, Sam, and I'll pass you that.

    14. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:13

        Okay.

    15. APAlex Partridge54:13

        If you could kindly open and read the three rules to live by from the previous guest.

    16. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:17

        All right. Um, the three rules to live by: Plan to plan. Great.

    17. APAlex Partridge54:23

        [laughs]

    18. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:24

        Ooh. That makes a lot of sense. [laughs]

    19. APAlex Partridge54:27

        Short but sweet.

    20. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:28

        Um, we are all gonna plan. Find your people. Oh, this is what I said. [clicks tongue] Uh, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. It's okay to outgrow someone no, who no longer serves you. I need to be friends with this person.

    21. APAlex Partridge54:41

        Mm.

    22. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:41

        [laughs] Continue to learn and grow. Absolutely, and I learn and grow alongside the community. That's what I do. Thank you.

    23. APAlex Partridge54:48

        Amazing.

    24. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:49

        Thank you.

    25. APAlex Partridge54:50

        Um, Samantha, on behalf of everyone who's, um, I guess, grappling to understand their brains, thank you very much.

    26. SHDr. Samantha Hiew54:59

        Oh, you're welcome. [laughs] Thanks for having me again. [outro music]

Episode duration: 55:05