Dr Alex George's 5 Tips That WILL Improve Your Anxiety

Alex Partridge 0:00 Today we're speaking to Dr Alex George. Some might know him from the popular TV reality show, Love Island, but today he's got his Doctor’s hat on to speak about his ADHD diagnosis and how best to harness it. So here's how to own your differences, some clever life hacks to help self-motivate, and the reason you'd never guess as to why he chose a hairdryer for his ADHD item. [upbeat music] Dr Alex George, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Alex George 0:26 Thank you so much for having me. It's great to, it's great to be here. I've got quite the array of items around us, and we're gonna be delving into some of these, I'm sure.

Alex Partridge 0:33 Yeah.

Dr. Alex George 0:33 But, uh, well done, great work on, on this podcast. It's a, it's an amazing one. It's a great space. It's fantastic what you're doing. It's quite nice to have something that's dedicated to ADHD community. I mean, it's amazing, like the growth of the platform and the podcast is, is amazing, the social media and stuff. It just shows the demand, doesn't it, for... or the need, I guess, for this kind of good quality conversation.

Alex Partridge 0:54 Well, thank you mate. I appreciate that. And yes, it, it does. It... I think we were discussing earlier, so much of the ADHD narrative is, is, is doom, doom and gloom.

Dr. Alex George 1:02 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:02 And especially young kids, they, they think they might have ADHD, and they go on Google and they look it up and, and it tells them that they're gonna be nothing but a liability.

Dr. Alex George 1:11 Mm. Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11 When in fact, if there's awareness and systems to mitigate the challenges, there's tremendous strengths that are associated with, with ADHD.

Dr. Alex George 1:20 Yeah. Well, I mean, if you look at, if you look at it this way, I mean, so many people in the creative space, l- leaders of, of the country, leaders of businesses, um, you know, innovators-

Alex Partridge 1:30 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:30 ... creatives are, are those people who are neurodivergent. That includes people with ADHD, and I think even the name ADHD kinda sets up people for this negative view of it because, um, you know, you've got attention deficit, this whole thing around being deficient of something, whereas most of the research shows that, um, people with ADHD actually have very adequate amounts and, and amounts of attention. It's where that's placed that can be the challenge when you apply it to a neurotypical setting. So if you take, uh, a group of, um, children who have ADHD and you put them in a 9:00 to 5:00 school setting, a lot of them will struggle with that. However, you, if you adapt that school setting and you're not doing hour-long blocks, that you're breaking them into 15, 20-minute chunks of learning, and you focus on attention-led or interest-led learning, you'll find that those with ADHD will excel to huge degrees. Um, a- I mean, many would argue that the 9:00 to 5:00 setting, hour-long classes don't actually benefit even the neurotypical, 'cause most neurotypical people can concentrate for about 20 to 25 minutes at a time anyway. But I think that's what's fascinating, is that so much of the stigma around ADHD, part of it is like naughty boys is a big, big, um, stereotype, which is quite interesting because actually, um, the gender split, you know, if you look at, at true incidence of ADHD, it's quite equally split-

Alex Partridge 2:48 Mm

Dr. Alex George 2:48 ... across men and women. Um, the ADHD, uh, picture of like a young naughty boy bouncing around the room is so far off the truth anyway. I mean, only about 10% of people with ADHD have hyperactivity. Most people are combined, so they have kind of the mixed, uh, mixed type. Obviously, a lot of women have inattentive. That's kind of quite a common type that women will have. And it's just such a problematic thing, and that's why it's brilliant what you're doing with the podcast because it's not just about getting people positive about it, it's trying to get people to realize what it actually is. Because if people think it's just about a naughty young boy that's hyperactive running around the room, for a start, you're gonna make them feel like rubbish when they don't need to. And secondly, there's a whole bunch of people, particularly women, who are gonna think, "Oh, well, I don't have it."

Alex Partridge 3:27 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 3:27 "That's not what I have, 'cause I'm not a bo- a boy bouncing around the room." So that's why anti-stigma is so important, because it's not about, just about getting people thinking positively, it's getting people to understand what are we actually talking about here.

Alex Partridge 3:39 Since, since you got diagnosed, what do you think you've learned about ADHD and, and other areas that it showed up in your life that might actually contradict what that stereotype is?

Dr. Alex George 3:48 Yeah, I mean, I, it's, it's ch- I think that having the diagnosis has largely changed my entire life. I can... I think, I don't know if I can be, put it any other way, really. I mean, I, the reason I looked into it at the age of 31 was because I started this podcast called The Stompcast. Um, you know, we, we walk and talk with the guests. We find out about their lives. And I started the podcast with the vision that I would walk with people each week, walk with a guest each week. We'd record the podcast. It'd get people outdoors, enjoying nature, which I'm very passionate about. And by the way, one of the greatest, and one of the best treatments for symptoms or difficulties associated with ADHD is nature therapy. Walking in nature was brilliant, and I thought people will learn from the conversations.

Alex Partridge 4:27 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 4:27 What I didn't expect was how profound that difference would be on me. You know, The Stompcast has been going now for a year and a half. Because of the conversations I had, for example, with Toddla T, the, the DJ who had or has ADHD and was diagnosed, conversations with him, conversations on sobriety, all the kind of different things that I've had and experiences I've had, it's changed my life. You know, I was diagnosed with ADHD. I stopped drinking. I live a much healthier, happier life. I'm probably the most creative and calm that I've-

Alex Partridge 4:53 Mm

Dr. Alex George 4:53 ... ever been. Uh, and it started really with the podcast, but yes, understanding why I am this way. And then when you look back on your life, you were saying about things that you look at, just like, it's like this whole like domino effect, this reverse domino. Like, it starts knocking back the dominoes back to the start, and you're looking back on your life and like, oh, okay.

Alex Partridge 5:12 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 5:12 This all makes a lot more sense now. You know, I was, I was born, um, as a, as a first son, a first child. My mum, uh, found that I didn't sleep for the three, first three years of my life. One of the strongest, um, prognostic, um, uh, indicators that someone has ADHD is when you look back at their childhood, particularly for those with hyperactive ADHD, that they often don't sleep as babies. So I didn't sleep for three years because of, of ADHD probably. Um, and then throughout my life, I think the struggles I had at school, um, I was always, I think, very bright, but I really struggled with being attentive for long periods of time. Nothing wrong with my attention- But for long periods of time on things I wasn't interested in-

Alex Partridge 5:53 Mm

Dr. Alex George 5:53 ... a real challenge. And I think as you go through your life, you just start lining everything up. You're like, "Oh my God, this all makes sense." And now, rather than trying to change myself and be something I'm not, because of course I'll always have ADHD, I start harnessing the benefits of it, and realizing where, yeah, some things I'm not gonna be good at, or some things will be challenging for me, and that's, that's okay. A great degre- degree of the benefit of being diagnosed, if you have it, is the acceptance that bring... that comes with that diagnosis.

Alex Partridge 6:19 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 6:19 That sense of it's okay to be who I am, you know?

Alex Partridge 6:23 Af-

Alex Partridge 6:24 after your diagnosis, y- you did a interview with a, a British newspaper, and something re- I found really intriguing, you said, looking back, you've always felt different to everyone else.

Dr. Alex George 6:36 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 6:36 What, what, what exactly do you mean by that?

Dr. Alex George 6:38 Well, I wonder, I wonder if you felt this way, but I think a lot of people who are, um, neurodivergent or neurodiverse say that they... one of the common things they will... most people will say is they felt different.

Alex Partridge 6:48 Yeah.

Dr. Alex George 6:48 If you ask people with autistic spectrum disorder, um, often one of the common, uh, symptoms is a point of difference, like a common difference symptom.

Alex Partridge 6:57 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 6:57 They all say to their, their, their, their doctor, whoever they're talking to as a professional, is that, "I just feel different." And I think that was something that I felt. I look back and I think, yeah, I never quite felt the same as everyone else. Like for example, in the classroom, I was like, how is all these other kids sit here reading the book for an hour or doing the work? And you know, obviously people are being naughty, but I really couldn't concentrate. I couldn't take it, and I was looking at the page in front of me, and I was like, I can't take this in, unless I was interested in it. Or-

Alex Partridge 7:21 Mm

Dr. Alex George 7:21 ... as what most often actually happened, to be perfectly honest, is I took it in very quickly, and I got bored. And that's... And then when I was bored, I'd... my attention would go to other things. It's not that I was naughty. I was never a naughty child. I don't think I was ever like... I don't think a teacher would ever be like, "Oh, he's really rude", or anything. I just would never concentrate. And so what happened is that I'd do the task, then I'd be, like, talking to the, my friends, "Hey, what's going on?" Distracting them. And then I'd get removed from classroom, and eventually it got to the point where I was removed from class a lot of the time. And my mum went in and was like, "Look, this is my first child. I obviously don't know about education and child age, but he, he seems very bright. Why is he being removed from mainstream education, basically?" And it was funny because the person at the time said to my mum, said, "Look, you know, we can try and put him back into class, but you've got to have realistic expectations. I don't think he's gonna grow up to be... you know, do something like be, you know, a doctor or something like that." Uh, and obviously years later, that was quite funny to look back on that. But you know, that was the kind of-

Alex Partridge 8:18 Mm

Dr. Alex George 8:18 ... negativity that was surrounded rather than going, "What's going on here? This person is quite a, a relatively bright person."

Alex Partridge 8:25 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 8:25 "There's challenges. Why don't we deal with it?" It was kind of like, "Let's just remove him from, from that environment." So yeah, I guess there are... There are definitely negative things I look back on. I think my only regret... I don't really regret. It's not, it's not a regret for me to bear, but my only thing I look back on is that how different could it have been if I'd have been diagnosed at a young age and had the right support, and that you'd have nurtured this? Because I, I'm the lucky one, right? I'm a lucky one because I have a very caring, good family around me, which many people have, but I have a good family around me, and I'm one of the most stubborn people you'll, like, ever meet. So if someone says you can't do something-

Alex Partridge 9:00 Mm

Dr. Alex George 9:00 ... I, I'm the person that will go to the end of the earth to, to do it. Um, and I think when I was told that, that, "You're not gonna do it," I was like, "Oh, this is not happening."

Alex Partridge 9:08 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 9:08 So I went back in the classroom. I forced myself to kind of try and be as neurotypical as possible and got my way into med school. But how many people with the same goal wouldn't have got there, you know? I was very fortunate. There was a huge degree of luck. I had the right people around me. There's no doubt that that was a big part of it as well. Would I have got there otherwise? And I think the sad fact is so many people who are neurodivergent get cast along the side-

Alex Partridge 9:29 Mm

Dr. Alex George 9:29 ... or they don't get to where they want to be, not because they can't or they don't have something to add or to give, but because they weren't given the right support or just the freedom. Actually, most, most, most, most people with neurodivergence actually just need freedom to be themselves. If we stop trying to conform people into the sausage factory or into the, into the you have to be this replica of the other person, if you allow them just to be, you'll find that they will find their place.

Alex Partridge 9:53 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 9:54 They'll find where they're meant to be. You know, most productivity books now, most people that talk about growth and learning and development, you know, say that actually the most important thing is that someone has that innate sense of motivation, that innate sense of I, I feel motivated to do this. I enjoy this. I know my purpose. I know why I'm here. And that is when you hit that flow state-

Alex Partridge 10:13 Mm

Dr. Alex George 10:13 ... and that beautiful sense of, yeah, feeling purposeful in life.

Alex Partridge 10:18 It's actually quite sad because you mentioned there that the, your teachers told your parents that-

Dr. Alex George 10:23 Mm

Alex Partridge 10:23 ... you were essentially different and you probably wouldn't amount to something. And I think there's a statistic that people with ADHD-

Dr. Alex George 10:30 Mm

Alex Partridge 10:30 ... uh, are... encounter up to 10,000 negative or corrective messages before their 10th birthday. And actually, a lot of that is not because there's anything objectively wrong with them. It's because they're not doing what the neurotypical child should, sh- should be doing. Um, so there's not actually-

Dr. Alex George 10:52 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:52 ... anything wrong with them. They're just being-

Dr. Alex George 10:54 Mm.

Alex Partridge 10:54 I- it's a unfair comparison because it's assuming that all, all brains are the same.

Dr. Alex George 10:58 Mm.

Alex Partridge 10:58 It's not taking into account the diversity of thought.

Dr. Alex George 11:00 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:00 And actually, an ADHD kid, uh, might be sat at the back of the class very still, but with a racing mind-

Dr. Alex George 11:07 Yeah

Alex Partridge 11:07 ... daydreaming, full of anxiety. Um, and of course in that condition, then that child isn't going to get good grades-

Dr. Alex George 11:14 Mm

Alex Partridge 11:14 ... or they're not going to be contributing to the class.

Dr. Alex George 11:16 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:16 And because of that, the teacher then might say, "Oh, Alex is quiet," or, "Alex isn't going to amount to anything."

Dr. Alex George 11:21 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:21 But it's not because he's-

Dr. Alex George 11:21 Mm

Alex Partridge 11:21 ... he's, he's, he's, he's thick, it's because he is-

Dr. Alex George 11:24 Mm

Alex Partridge 11:24 ... he's in a condition that isn't suited to how his brain works.

Dr. Alex George 11:27 Would you say that was your experience? Are you describing yourself in that, of interest?

Alex Partridge 11:31 Yeah. So I had my first panic attack when I was sat in the back-

Dr. Alex George 11:33 Mm

Alex Partridge 11:33 ... of a classroom when I was six years old.

Dr. Alex George 11:35 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:35 Um, I found a cleaner in the corridor and I asked them to call an ambulance.

Dr. Alex George 11:40 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:40 And that, uh, uh, I thought I was having a heart attack [laughs] at six years old.

Dr. Alex George 11:43 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 11:43 Um, and it was that anxiety of just being so acutely aware of everything. And then actually the teacher pointed at me and said, "Alex, do you know the answer to this question?"

Dr. Alex George 11:52 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:52 And everyone looked at me. And in that moment-

Dr. Alex George 11:53 Yeah, yeah

Alex Partridge 11:53 ... that's when my face went bright red and my- ... heart went

Dr. Alex George 11:56 Yeah

Alex Partridge 11:57 And that was really my first encounter.

Dr. Alex George 11:58 Mm.

Alex Partridge 11:59 It wasn't my first encounter with that feeling, it was my first ti- time I heard the word anxiety.

Dr. Alex George 12:03 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:03 When the paramedic said, "You've had an anxiety attack."

Dr. Alex George 12:06 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:06 And I was six years old.

Dr. Alex George 12:08 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:08 Um, but I think that's the case from speaking to people, is that environment, that classroom, um, so anxiety inducing.

Dr. Alex George 12:15 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:15 Because it's just not catered to... I wanted to be out creating stuff-

Dr. Alex George 12:19 Mm

Alex Partridge 12:19 ... or building. You know, at home when I was six, I was building businesses and designing board games to send off to board game companies, and all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Alex George 12:26 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:26 I wasn't... I hate classrooms.

Dr. Alex George 12:29 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:29 It's such a bad environment for me.

Dr. Alex George 12:31 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:31 But all the kids are forced to be in that environment.

Dr. Alex George 12:33 Mm-hmm. And look what you, you've gone on to achieve and all the things you've done. I mean, your creativity is, is, is immense and it's like, the shame is, is that, I think, you know, we both sit here as... I don't know your life and I'm not gonna talk for you, but we sit here as people that, for whatever journey we've had, we're here, right? But how many people have ended up with addiction and, you know, um, uh, real, uh, uh, difficulties in their life relating to, like, employment or homelessness and things like that, you know? There's some... I'm not gonna try and quote them but I, because I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's some quite frightening statistics around neurodivergence and, and homelessness, for example. Um, and, and it's something that, you know, really strikes me, is that I think the risk of being cast aside is, is a lot higher, and the risk of, like, fall- falling a- around the wayside is-

Alex Partridge 13:18 Mm

Dr. Alex George 13:18 ... there as well. And yeah, I just look back at the school system and I think it's hard because, you know, teachers are doing their best, and I don't hold any judgment to the teachers that looked after me or, you know, by people that have... 'Cause most of the time they're doing their best. But the problem is that if the awareness isn't there and people don't understand what they're looking at, they're not gonna know how to support people. I think that was the challenge as well. You know, that is a big part of the challenge, is that, you know, it's not just for us as individuals or parents, but it's the people around those young people growing up. Especially in those formative years, it's vital that they understand what this is. You know, I think the, the work the, um, the, uh, the Princess of Wales have do- is doing is fantastic around, you know, the kind of, looking at young people's development. You know, that kind of 80, 90% of their neurodevelopment's done by the age of five, or-

Alex Partridge 14:00 Mm

Dr. Alex George 14:01 ... you know, the influence that you can have, both positively and negatively, is huge by that age. So that's why I just, think if we can just work a bit on the system and just look at educating people, look at the awareness side of it, then we could kind of change some of this stuff. 'Cause like you said, if you take, if you take, you know, a group of people with ADHD and you have them, you know, in, in environments that, that reflect their output, reflect their, the way that they interact with the world, you'll find that they're pretty damn useful people to have.

Alex Partridge 14:27 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 14:27 Like, if you've got a business, honestly, if you've got a business, you wanna have plenty of people with neurodivergence in your business because they do think outside the box. I mean, we do, right? We, we have differences of thought. That's a big part of it. Different way... Differences of attention, differences of thought, differences of interaction with the world, differences of interaction with people around us. And that diversity of living, almost, creates an ability to create ideas that are new, they're innovative, innovative.

Alex Partridge 14:51 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 14:51 And I think that's what's exciting. So, let's not just see people with ADHD as people, we need to help them 'cause they're struggling. It's like, actually, how do you en- how do you get the, the magic these people have, and how do you help that grow? You know-

Alex Partridge 15:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Alex George 15:02 ... water that plant to turn it into a flourishing flower, you know?

Alex Partridge 15:06 Yeah. No, totally agree. And I think all, all corporations, all companies can benefit from, from having ADHD or any, all, all neurodivergency in the workforce, for a lot of the reasons you just said.

Dr. Alex George 15:16 Mm.

Alex Partridge 15:17 That diversity of thought, that risk taking, that go-get-it attitude. Let's... You know, we're doers.

Dr. Alex George 15:23 Mm.

Alex Partridge 15:23 Um, we don't dwell on failure too much-

Dr. Alex George 15:25 Mm

Alex Partridge 15:25 ... which actually means we can move on to the next thing quite quickly if it doesn't quite work out. I think the thing that gets in the way is anxiety-

Dr. Alex George 15:32 Mm

Alex Partridge 15:32 ... quite a lot of the time, because you've got that person who's in a environment, in an office, in a classroom, whatever it might be, and anxiety is actually clouding or paralyzing that part of their brain that-

Dr. Alex George 15:42 Mm

Alex Partridge 15:42 ... can make them so good.

Dr. Alex George 15:43 Mm.

Alex Partridge 15:44 So I suppose my question is, do you do anything that helps your anxiety?

Dr. Alex George 15:50 Yeah, I mean, I think probably, um, I, I mean, I was most agitated when I was at school-

Alex Partridge 15:55 Mm

Dr. Alex George 15:55 ... because I was stuck in this environment. I was very blessed, actually, went on to med school to go to a place that had a very modern way of thinking in terms of medical, um, studies. So, a traditional medical school would be very 9:00 to 5:00, lectures coming through your ears, reading a million books, like that kind of stuff. Whereas the med school I went to was very, very self-directed learning. This is the curriculum. These are the lectures. You can be in person or you can watch online or you can learn it through the transcript, or you can find your own ways, but this is what you've gotta learn. These are the designated hours you need to be here to do your clinical stuff, which was very pra- practical and I loved that. I mean, you're in there being creative, you're learning to s- you know, stitch, you're learning to do all these different skills. Brilliant for, for that kind of learning. I love that. But I basically did almost all my learning out of lectures.

Alex Partridge 16:37 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 16:37 You know, when I was at, at med school, I flourished. You know, I had to work really hard, a lot harder than I think my capability was, to get the grades I needed. When I went to med school, suddenly this was, for me, it was heaven. I mean, you know, I, I, I, I got very high scores, you know, at, very early in med school because it was just so good for my way of learning, and I loved it. And I think that was a huge change. My anxiety dropped off a lot there. But a lot of my methods for dealing with, I think, the anxiety associated with ADHD or just the general coping of life has come later in life, 'cause at med school you don't really learn about these things. You know, you're learning about pathophysiology, anatomy, disease. Whereas what we're talking about a lot of the time, yes, I guess treating anxiety is a medical treatment at times, but a lot of it is actually about wellbeing and just, like innate sense of self-care, like the, like, a lot of that kind of stuff. In the same way that med school we don't learn a lot about physical training. You know, I did a, um, I done my level three personal training qualifications 'cause I wanted to learn about function, about fitness, about, you know, developing- ... a strong, healthy body, which I don't think we really did very much-

Alex Partridge 17:42 Mm

Dr. Alex George 17:42 ... in med school. And equally, with, uh, looking after the mind, that's stuff I've learnt afterwards. So in the last kind of four, five years, I've just really, like, immersed myself in that world. Like, what's out there? What works? What doesn't work? And I think I, I built a very good toolkit for myself, and I wrote the, The Mind Manual, um, as a, a, you know, a fitness, a mental fitness tool, you know, book for everyone really that you can take away. You can look at things that will help work for you or adapt them to make them work for you. Uh, and you l- you learn that. I mean, for me, one of the biggest things has been nature. That's the reason I started the Stomp Cast. Nature therapy is amazing for everyone. It's particularly helpful for people with neurodivergence because being amongst nature is great for grounding. When you're outside in the natural world, you realize that there is a lot more than oneself, you know? And when you start realizing and become aware of your outer body realities or the things that are around you, it suddenly makes you feel, uh, your problems feel not as big. They become smaller, you know? I mean, it's like the idea... A very useful thing actually if you have a feeling like you're gonna get anxious or a panic attack is to use the kind of zoom out, zoom in trick.

Alex Partridge 18:44 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 18:44 So s- sit there and think, "Right. I am this person sat in this room right now." Zoom out to the universe and think how big the universe is. Think how small this one Earth p- this planet is in the universe. Then zoom in and think, "Right. This country that we live in in England is actually a tiny speck on the universe," and then you're a person in there. And you realize that actually your problems feel like they're all-consuming of your entire world, but they're a small part of everything else, and that's been very helpful for me a few times where I've felt a bit anxious. Been like, actually, my problems don't have to be as great as, as they feel. But nature's brilliant for that. Nature's brilliant for grounding. Exercise, I mean, probably one of the biggest things for me preventatively and also as a treatment of anxiety is exercise. I mean, a lot of the studies out there now say that probably the greatest medication or treatment for the negative effects of ADHD is exercise.

Alex Partridge 19:33 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 19:33 You know, when you run and you go and exercise, your dopamine is raised. And we know obviously, um, ADD, ADHD is a dopamine deficit disorder. You're getting your dopamine up. But the beautiful thing of exercise versus a lot of other things like sugar and foods is that your dopamine doesn't crash. It glides down. It's like the sail effect. So it kind of rises up as you exercise, and then throughout the hours in the day, it'll glide down so you'll have that lovely long-lasting dopamine boost. Fantastic for, for, um, for ADD. The other one as well is cold showers for me. You know, cold showers, again, spike your dopamine and again, keep it boosted throughout the day. So every morning I go for my walk. I'm in nature. It's exercise as well, and I have my cold shower. And since I've been doing that, it's completely changed, uh, my levels of anxiety. I get out with a positive mindset. I feel good. I feel calm. I'm ready to tackle the day.

Alex Partridge 20:25 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 20:25 And what I'd say to people is build your own toolkit. That's what I talk about in The Mind Manual. User science I've talked about. Look at the different things that, that work for other people and pick out the things that are gonna work for you.

Alex Partridge 20:36 It's so true. I b- I noticed wh- when I started running, my concentration, my focus, my... Th- The trajectory of my day completely changed-

Dr. Alex George 20:45 Mm

Alex Partridge 20:45 ... for the, for the better. If I f- if I don't go for my morning run, my day is very sluggish.

Dr. Alex George 20:49 Mm.

Alex Partridge 20:49 It's very slow. It feels like I'm sometimes dragging bricks behind me when I'm having to sit down and do something. If I go and do a 2 or 3K in the morning or even just do 50 star jumps if I'm busy in the flat-

Dr. Alex George 21:00 Mm

Alex Partridge 21:02 ... um, the clarity of thought, the, the benefit to the, my focus throughout the day is unbelievable.

Dr. Alex George 21:09 There's, there's, there's a lot of levels and layers to it. I mean, part of it is physiologically, the kind of serotonin, dopamine if you like, sense of clarity that you get, the blood flow to your brain, those kind of things. But also, you're actually making a real statement to your world and to yourself that you are important because if someone had zero value for themselves and their lives, and I've been there, you're not gonna see the value in exercise and, and you're not gonna... It, it's so hard to kind of genuinely feel the benefit of doing that exercise. But when you get into a rhythm of doing things like exercise or having the cold shower or whether it's the self-care or it's the unwinding, you're making a very important statement to yourself that you matter, and as soon as you start doing that, you start then buying into this important fact which is true, that you're important, and that when you, that when you spend time on yourself, that actually you're not just doing something for this, f- like the sake of it, of exercise.

Alex Partridge 22:01 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 22:01 You're doing something because you care about yourself, and then you end up in this positive cycle. And when you do it in the morning, you're, you're basically saying to the universe that the most important thing I do today is look after myself. Everything else comes after.

Alex Partridge 22:12 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 22:12 You know, I say to people like, you know, and I have man- very many people saying, "I'm so busy. It's so hard. Like, life's so busy," and they're right. They're absolutely right. Life is busy, but nothing is more important than your health, and I would argue that anyone that's, that, that spends a bit of time each day, whether it's exercise and walking, whether it's reading, whatever it is, investing in yourself is investing in your entire life. You will be better at everything you do because you've done that, and there's a little bit of a chicken or the egg, isn't there, like, i- in that scenario? But I, I genuinely believe that, that, that the investment you make in yourself is the most imp- important one you do.

Alex Partridge 22:46 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 22:47 And that you must make time. You have to make time. And if you're looking for time, by the way, especially with people with ADHD, you know, listening to this or watching this, here's a little challenge. Go on your phone, go onto screen time, and look at your average hours spent each day. I'm gonna guess it's between three or four hours a day. So when you say, "I don't have time to do a half-an-hour run or a walk or to read or to do five minutes of meditation", steal it from that time.

Alex Partridge 23:11 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 23:12 Take away from your four hours a day on your phone. Take an hour off that. You've still got three hours on your phone. You, you can use that benefit, and I'm not judging anyone because it's exactly the thing I did to myself. I was like, "Oh, God. Have I got time?" And I thought, went on my screen time. Oh, Alex. You know, and I took away from that time, so that's what I did. I, I made a screen time and I decreased the amount of time I was allowed on it, and that time has now bought me more self-care time. So there are tricks to use.

Alex Partridge 23:38 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 23:38 Be careful of your own negative voice 'cause it'll often find reasons not to do it, and it's like, "Oh, it looks cold outside. I don't wanna go for that run." Go for the run. Don't do things based on how you feel-

Alex Partridge 23:48 Mm

Dr. Alex George 23:48 ... right now. Do things on, based on how you're going to feel in an hour's time or a week's time. It's the same with, um... I found it with alcohol and stopping drinking, the fast-forward effect. It's like, if I have this drink tonight, how will I feel tomorrow? How will I feel in two weeks? How will I feel in six months? If I don't have this drink tonight, how will I feel tomorrow? How do I feel in two weeks? How do I feel in six months? It's a great way of maintaining any positive habit.

Alex Partridge 24:11 A really useful thing I do, 'cause I, I agree, and I think if I've had a lot to drink and then I'm hungover-

Dr. Alex George 24:16 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:16 ... and that massively affects my ability to do my work or to be productive in any way, and that often lasts for a couple of days.

Dr. Alex George 24:21 Mm.

Alex Partridge 24:22 But what I've found in the past is, and I don't know, this seems to be related to ADHD, is I actually often forget that experience. So two or three months or la- later, I don't have that memory to draw on, so I don't have that fear or that dread or that, I don't wanna repeat that. So I'll have a drink and then it... The l- the cycle continues. So now I actually-

Dr. Alex George 24:40 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:40 ... write down, when I'm in that period of-

Dr. Alex George 24:42 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:43 ... I feel like hell, um, I, I really journal it and write it down-

Dr. Alex George 24:47 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:47 ... and keep it visual-

Dr. Alex George 24:48 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:48 ... on my desk.

Dr. Alex George 24:49 Mm.

Alex Partridge 24:49 So when that, when that temptation comes in two or later down the line-

Dr. Alex George 24:54 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:54 ... I can... Sometimes I even take a photo of my, of myself-

Dr. Alex George 24:57 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:57 ... looking like [laughs] hell.

Dr. Alex George 24:59 Mm.

Alex Partridge 24:59 Um, so when I get that temptation, I look at it, and that actually snaps me back-

Dr. Alex George 25:03 Mm

Alex Partridge 25:03 ... to the memory of that feeling.

Dr. Alex George 25:06 Mm.

Alex Partridge 25:06 And actually, that's often enough to, to, to change my path-

Dr. Alex George 25:11 Mm

Alex Partridge 25:11 ... because I forget the feeling-

Dr. Alex George 25:14 Mm

Alex Partridge 25:14 ... that, that you're talking about. Um, and I think with ADHD specifically, that can be a real problem.

Dr. Alex George 25:19 Mm.

Alex Partridge 25:19 Um-

Dr. Alex George 25:20 I use it actually for... I've used in the past, not so much now, because,

Dr. Alex George 25:24 so, so when you're developing any habit, you have to go through the phases of motivation, discipline-

Alex Partridge 25:29 Mm

Dr. Alex George 25:29 ... habit forming, and you need to go through those phases because you'll have a motivation phase which lasts two to three weeks. It's about the longest motivation ever lasts in one flow. It'll, uh, it'll come and go throughout the cycle of, or throughout a period of time of any activity. But two or three weeks is usually the maximum you'll have genuine, sustained motivation. You then have to apply discipline, and discipline is usually attached to the outcome. So you're disciplined because you want to, you know, get the grades to go to med school. You're disciplined because you want to remain alcohol-free or because you want to get fit for a marathon. And that discipline, if applied long enough, will become habitual. Like, I don't really... I don't ever, ever now question going out for a walk in the morning. I had to be disciplined for the first six months probably. I now walk every morning regardless. The only thing that will stop me now is if there's a storm, literally sideways wind and thing, and I'm annoyed if that happens and I can't-

Alex Partridge 26:15 Mm

Dr. Alex George 26:15 ... and I'll go out later in the day. But that happens because you do it over a period of time. And in the initial phases when you're applying discipline, it's having the right tools. And one really good trick that I've used for exercise, right, and this relates similar to that, is that I made this video on this day I really didn't wanna exercise. And I videoed like, "I don't wanna go. I'm not going to the gym. I can't be bothered. I don't feel..." I listed everything that was in my mind, just spoke it out to the camera, right? I then went to the gym, and then when I was walking home from the gym, I said exactly how I felt. How do I feel right now? And just, and I... My face, I was visibly a different person. I was energized. I was bright. I felt... Or I was sweating like a pig, but I felt, I, clearly in my eyes, I looked like an energized, happy, positive individual.

Alex Partridge 26:54 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 26:54 And I was buzzing with positivity. So I always look now, if I'm ever tempted of not going, I look at before and after. And actually, like you said, I don't even have to now. I don't have to look at that 'cause I know what I'll see, and I go, "Right, I'm going to the gym."

Alex Partridge 27:05 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 27:06 I'm like, "I'll get the video out. Okay, I'm going to the gym." And I think using the right tricks and the right ways of, you know, motivating yourself or learning what works, you know, for you really helps. But I think

Dr. Alex George 27:16 for alcohol, it's a very interesting conversation, and I think I said before we even started, you know, I think it's an interesting conversation. You know, what are the occasions or scenarios, um, th- uh, that exist whereby someone should never drink alcohol? And I th- I personally believe that there is an argument that... Well, we can agree on one thing. There is no benefit of alcohol anyway. I mean, there's ano- there's, there's no study that shows there's a benefit of alcohol. I used to talk about with... The final thing people used to say there's a benefit of alcohol with was stress, but now a recent study showed that actually even one or two glasses of wine a week intra- increases your baseline levels of cortisol. So even on the stress hurdle, alcohol doesn't help. It creates a psychological dissociation-

Alex Partridge 27:55 Mm

Dr. Alex George 27:55 ... which we feel is feeling relaxed.

Alex Partridge 27:57 That's in the short term.

Dr. Alex George 27:58 Yeah, which i- which, which it isn't really a true de-stress. You're just having this dissociation from your is- present state. You're, like, numbing a part of your brain. You're just... You're kind of, you're coming away from your reality, basically. When you come back into reality, you face twice as bad stress a- and anxiety, right? But I think alcohol is one of those things. When you have alcohol and ADHD, I don't see there being a good outcome in very few scenarios. Of course, there's people that will watch this and you... And, and, and don't wanna speak for you because, you know, I understand there'll probably be 5%, 10% of people go, "Actually, I have ADHD or ADD, and I have a good relationship with alcohol." But, you know, I think in 90%-plus scenarios, it doesn't help. I mean, look at rates of, uh, addiction in, with ADHD. You know, alcohol use disorder is diagnosed in around half of people with ADHD. About 50% of people with alcohol use disorder, doesn't necessarily mean addiction, but it means using that drug and it having a negative effect on one's life. A- and I guess anyone listening or watching, you know, have a think and look inwards at your own life. Look at your own relationship with alcohol if you have ADHD, and I'd argue that probably you would be happier and better off without it. And I don't want to be here, like, preaching, but I'm telling you, as someone that drank all the way through my 20s, that drank quite a lot, that was at med school, that did all the, the partying that was associated with that-

Alex Partridge 29:15 Mm

Dr. Alex George 29:16 ... I look back and think, "Would I have been happier and healthier without alcohol?" And I know with every inch or every part of my heart and every part of my head that I would've been.

Alex Partridge 29:24 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 29:24 And I think that alcohol is one of the... Alcohol and ADHD I don't think mix very well. I don't know what you think. You've interviewed lots of people on this now. I mean, alcohol's probably come up quite a lot. What do you think about that? Do you think that alcohol and ADHD can mix?

Alex Partridge 29:38 I've interviewed, like you said, I've interviewed a lot of people. The, the, the, the main th- question I get is, "What's... What, what advice would you give to improve my AD, find the negative sides of ADHD?" And the first thing I always say is, "Well, do you drink?"

Dr. Alex George 29:49 Mm.

Alex Partridge 29:49 "Do you drink alcohol?" And I say, "Well, if you can cut that out, I think that would be massively beneficial." 'Cause from my experience and the people I've spoken to- For me, if I have a drink in the, in, in the immediate term, it actually makes my ADHD considerably worse.

Dr. Alex George 30:02 Mm.

Alex Partridge 30:03 Um, it ups my impulsivity. It decreases-

Dr. Alex George 30:06 Same

Alex Partridge 30:06 ... all of the positives that I associate with ADHD, the creativity, the fast thinking, the problem-solving. All of that disappears, and I end up just completely zoned out. Yet, in the short term, I might be disassociated with the stress, but then the two or three days, even a week afterwards, my ADHD negatives are considerably heightened, and s- all of the positives are muted. So I always say to people, like, "Do you drink? Are you able to s- to reduce drinking or stop drinking?" I, I think... And as you said, exercise, getting outside. It, it's this... it's the simple lifestyle changes, I think, that are way more beneficial than a lot of the hacks-

Dr. Alex George 30:41 Mm

Alex Partridge 30:42 ... the, the, the quick fixes, the, "You should eat omega-3s"-

Dr. Alex George 30:47 Mm

Alex Partridge 30:47 ... the, the dietary suggestions, the, you know, all the, the mushroom th- things.

Dr. Alex George 30:51 Mm.

Alex Partridge 30:52 "Do you drink alcohol?" Because also, they're susceptible to addiction as well. Um-

Dr. Alex George 30:57 It's huge. It's a huge... I mean, 50% alcohol use disorder is a shocking sta- statistic really, and it, it, and it's, and it's largely... There's lots of reasons to that, but I mean, the impulsivity is a huge one. I agree with you. My, my... Most of the most stupid things I've done in my life that I think, "Oh, do you know what? I'd have done, dealt with that situation differently," or, "I'd have do- I wouldn't have done that," or whatever, were either when I immediately, when I drank or in the day after. You know, and it was relates to impulsivity or the anxiety that would come afterwards.

Alex Partridge 31:25 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 31:25 And, you know, I, I, I just think that those things would've been different if I hadn't have drunk. I think that's the problem, is that in the moment, we feel... You know, I think it comes back to some of what we started with there, saying that you feel different. A lot of the time, pe- what people feel they want in life is to feel the same. You don't wanna be the really tall person in the class. I was really tall. I hated being tall when I was younger. And you don't wanna be a short person in the class, or you don't wanna be... I don't know. You want, you wanna be the normal person.

Alex Partridge 31:52 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 31:52 You wanna dress the same as everyone else. We, we don't wanna stand out, do we, most of the time? And we do kind of stand out a bit, I think. Not necessarily visually as, with ADHD, but we feel internally that we stand out, right? So alcohol provi- provides this kind of solution of rounding.

Alex Partridge 32:07 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 32:07 It rounds off all the edges and makes you kind of the same as everyone else. But at what cost? What is the cost of that rounding effect? And I think the cost is more negative effects relating to impulsivity, anxiety, and so on. And actually, as you correctly said, I think it's a really important point, is that you're actually also numbing the positives. We're nu- you're numbing the actual good parts of it, right? And I think that is, that is the thing that perhaps we don't talk about enough. We talk about enhancing the negative effects of ADHD. We're actually removing the things that are good about us. You know, if you're, if you're... You know, I mean, I look at it this way. Uh, you know, people go to the end of the earth almost in sports performance to add 5% of performance. How much does alcohol take off your daily performance? If you look at life as a performance-

Alex Partridge 32:50 Mm

Dr. Alex George 32:51 ... what percentage does it take off? I mean, it's like when people say, um, "I feel low," or, "I feel sad," or, "I lack energy," or, "I lack creativity," or, "I just don't, I don't enjoy life that much," do you drink alcohol? Do you drink alcohol? And no judgment implied, but, like, that's an important thing to look at. If you drink alcohol, that's the first thing to address. Do the exercise, do all those other things, but if you feel sad in your life, the first thing I'd do is stop drinking. And people don't realize that not only does alcohol in the moment make you feel more depressed or the next day. Chronic use of alcohol, and chronic u- use of alcohol can be anywhere from a f- you know, four to five pints a week up.

Alex Partridge 33:28 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 33:28 So u- using alcohol in a, as a week, in a weekly basis can have a long-term effect on your mood. Alcohol is a depressant. It depresses the brain. So over time, alcohol can, and will for many people, make you depressed. Not for everyone. You know, there's loads of people, I've got friends that drink alcohol. They have a good relationship, quote-unquote, with alcohol. They don't have any issues with it. But for a lot of people, particularly if you're neurodivergent, then it can become really depressing.

Alex Partridge 33:52 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 33:53 So one of the best things to do is to stop drinking. See how you are after six months of drinking. You might find you're very, very different, in a very different place.

Alex Partridge 34:01 Mm. Yeah. Can I ask you a personal question?

Dr. Alex George 34:03 Mm.

Alex Partridge 34:04 You seem like a very confident man.

Dr. Alex George 34:07 Mm.

Alex Partridge 34:07 Are you sensitive to rejection?

Dr. Alex George 34:11 Yeah, I a- I am. I'm confident because, I'm confident because, um, I have spent a long time, A, I think genuinely working on myself, and B, I spent a long time, a lot of my life, doing things that scare me. And therefore, I know... My mom gave me a g- great bit of advice. She gave me a lot of good advice in my life. She said this when I was younger. She said, "Get comfortable being uncomfortable." And I spent a life of being uncomfortable, and now I'm pretty comfortable being uncomfortable. [laughs] You know, I can do things like I, you know, hosted the World Mental Health Day with the Prince and Princess of Wales.

Alex Partridge 34:48 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 34:48 And I was nervous before meeting them, but I said, "No, this is, this is the discomfort you've been searching." And it became... You know, you, you, you find the more that you do stuff that scares you, the less scary things are. You realize that you survive everything that scared you. You know, and, um, I mean, it's the part of anxiety. The cruel thing about anxiety is you're afraid of something that isn't there. Fundamentally, a panic attack is a feeling of impending doom. It's horrific. I've had panic attacks as well. My panic attacks were usually and oddly related to exercise classes. I had a specific fear, I would say almost to the point of phobia, of exercise classes. Now I go exercise class every single week. Never have a panic attack now. But the panic attack is a fear of something that isn't there. It's that physiological response to the lion in the room that isn't there.

Alex Partridge 35:30 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 35:30 You're actually responding physiologically as if there was a lion in the room, but there isn't a lion in the room. So I think the confidence comes from just, just doing things over and over again. And I've realized as well in my life that very, very rarely is anyone good at something that hasn't done something for a long time, and probably more accurately, people are only good th- are good at things because they've done something for a long time. It's like presenters in television. I've seen the best presenters fluffing lines, repeating things, da, da, da, doing things over and over again, and you realize we're all human, and actually, if someone is good at something, they practice a lot at it. And I think that gives me confidence by proxy almost. I'm like, "Well, if they've become good at it, I can too." And so I think a lot of it's that, but, you know, answering your question in a very long-winded way, I think I, I, I am very sensitive. I have a lot of rejection sensitivity. I think that's hard in relationships, hard in life. I hate failing. But because I hate failing-

Alex Partridge 36:23 Mm

Dr. Alex George 36:23 ... it makes me very good. Now I embrace fail. I love failure in a way. I love... It's a love-hate relationship. I hate failing, but I love it because it drives me. And you think that teacher at school said, "Don't expect a lot of him. He's not gonna be a doctor," I mean, that was literally like, you know, just I was off then. You know what I mean?

Alex Partridge 36:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Alex George 36:39 I was like, "Right. That's it. I'm gonna... You know, I'm gonna go and do well at this." And that was a rejection, wasn't it? She rejected me, in a sense. Um, [lip smack] uh, but I do find that hard, and that's something that through therapy... Uh, therapy's helped me a lot with that.

Alex Partridge 36:51 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 36:51 But I do struggle with that. I struggle with, um... I struggle as well of, like, almost like rejection in the sense of, like, if I feel I've let myself down, that sense of rejecting myself. Like, I wasn't... I didn't handle that in the best way or wasn't the best version of myself, and there is a negative there that I sometimes expect 100% of myself, which is impossible. And when I don't reach that, I can be very hard on myself, and that is something I've had to work, and I still-

Alex Partridge 37:16 Mm

Dr. Alex George 37:16 ... continue to have to work very, very hard on. Very, very hard indeed.

Alex Partridge 37:21 It's so interesting, and the reason I ask is because there's such a common, uh, pain point within the community, uh, sensitivity to rejection-

Dr. Alex George 37:28 Mm

Alex Partridge 37:29 ... and especially in relationships, and you've touched-

Dr. Alex George 37:31 Mm

Alex Partridge 37:31 ... upon that. And I suppose if we were to ask your partner-

Dr. Alex George 37:36 Mm-hmm

Alex Partridge 37:36 ... a past partner what you were like in a relationship-

Dr. Alex George 37:40 Mm

Alex Partridge 37:40 ... what do you think they would say?

Dr. Alex George 37:41 [lip smack] Well, I think I would probably, even broadly looking at my relationships and to my friendships and people around me, I think, you know, Abby, who's here, will, will say that I'm a very sensitive person. I'll go to the end of the earth for someone. I'll move mountains for them, um, because I really care. I feel empathy. Like, if I feel that someone else is sad or someone else has been wronged or something's happened-

Alex Partridge 38:00 Mm

Dr. Alex George 38:00 ... I feel, like, a huge sense of I need to fix that. Maybe that's why I went into medicine. That's maybe why, you know, I did... That's probably a large part of why I do so much in the mental health space, that I take on all of this. You know, it causes me a lot of pain, actually, to do the work I do. But I think that sensitivity and that desire to, to, to, to do that is a huge part of it. But obviously there's negative sides. I mean, I think it is a challenge. There is a challenge with dating someone who... If you're neurotypical and someone's, uh, got ADHD, you are different. That's the whole point we're talking about, and I think that it's learning, people learning how to react with you and how for you to react with them as well is part of it.

Alex Partridge 38:40 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 38:40 And the more I've learnt about myself, probably the better I am in all relationships because you learn not to be impulsive.

Dr. Alex George 38:47 You know, I apply a lot of things like the 24-hour rule with things I'm worrying about, so not to be-

Alex Partridge 38:51 What's the 24-hour rule?

Dr. Alex George 38:52 So use this a lot in business such as well, and in work. You know, if we get a, an email in asking me to involve with a, a, a campaign or a project with, say, a charity, I'll be, "Yeah, yeah, let's go and do it." But then the team go, "Right. Well, let's give it 24 hours. Think about it tomorrow," because actually you might be saying yes, you really wanna do it, but you've got a million things on right now. You're at capacity, and you're gonna end up doing a bad job of all of it. So [laughs] I mean, it's an example of then going 24 hours, going-

Alex Partridge 39:17 Mm

Dr. Alex George 39:17 ... "Oh, actually I would quite like to do that, but realistically I'm also doing six other things that are similar or six things that I also need to put my attention to. And actually by taking this on, I might be putting myself in a position where I can't do this." And I, I use that in, in life a lot, and also even for buying things. Impulsivity. I mean, I s- I, I'm classic in the sense that, like, I decided... When I stopped drinking, I was like, I really want to have a reward. It's a little bit the Atomic habit, Habits thing of, of attaching rewards to behaviors. You know, like, this is a classic one that you use to train, you know, train a dog. You give them treats at the end of doing an activity or whatever that you're, you're pleased with. You know, the dogs learn to sit. You give them a treat. They... You're giving that dog dopamine, a sense of reward. They're learning that, if I do this, I get a good, good thing happens.

Alex Partridge 39:59 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 39:59 So, [lip smack] you know, I was like, I'm gonna learn to ride motorbikes when I stop drinking, 'cause when I stop drinking, save loads of money, I can pay for the lessons, and I can buy a bike, uh, in time, whatever, with that money that I'm saving. Um, but my impulse is to buy, like, six bikes.

Alex Partridge 40:15 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 40:16 And financially I need to very much not buy six bikes. So I have to prevent myself, 'cause I would. I'd go, if I decide I'm gonna do a hobby, I'll take it to the 10th, 10th, 15th degree of, like, everything. I have to then do all of it.

Alex Partridge 40:28 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 40:28 I'm, like, fully into that hobby, you know? And I think that's something I've had to manage, 'cause then what happens is I overstretch myself, or I buy things that six months later I'm like, "I shouldn't have bought that. That was silly." You know, and that's something I apply-

Alex Partridge 40:40 Mm

Dr. Alex George 40:40 ... so the 24-hour rule applies well to, like, short things, but I think when it comes to, like, bikes, [laughs] it's, it's... I try and give it, like, two or three weeks.

Alex Partridge 40:48 Yeah.

Dr. Alex George 40:48 'Cause otherwise I would. I'd, I'd, I'd convince myself to buy a motorbike that I can't afford-

Alex Partridge 40:52 Mm

Dr. Alex George 40:52 ... and I don't need. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 40:53 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 40:53 And then get... And then why have I bought this?

Alex Partridge 40:55 Yeah. I think you might have just saved loads of listeners from, from impending burnout, because like you said, it's such a common thing. We overcommit.

Dr. Alex George 41:04 We get excited.

Alex Partridge 41:04 We impulsively say yes.

Dr. Alex George 41:05 We get excited, don't we?

Alex Partridge 41:06 And then we-

Dr. Alex George 41:07 Uh-

Alex Partridge 41:07 ... we're quickly over that honeymoon period, but we've said yes to that project, and now we've got 10 things to do. And actually now our... because we're 24 hours later or a week later-

Dr. Alex George 41:16 Yeah

Alex Partridge 41:16 ... our excitement's on a shiny new project.

Dr. Alex George 41:18 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 41:18 But we've said yes to 10 things-

Dr. Alex George 41:19 Yeah

Alex Partridge 41:20 ... yesterday.

Dr. Alex George 41:20 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 41:20 And that's just gonna lead to burnout, more anxiety-

Dr. Alex George 41:22 Yeah

Alex Partridge 41:22 ... 'cause then you've got to probably go back and say, "I'm really sorry." You've gotta let people down-

Dr. Alex George 41:26 Yeah

Alex Partridge 41:26 ... which is a nightmare for, for people with ADHD.

Dr. Alex George 41:29 I, um, I was given a great piece of advice by Jay Cummings on the Stomp Cast I recorded with him the other day, and I thought, "This is fantastic." I think this is really useful, and I'm gonna share it. Um, what he said was that if someone asks you to do something, fast-forward to the day that you'd be doing it and ask yourself, if you imagine on that day, would you want to be doing it, yes or no? So a classic case would be, like, someone would be like, "Alex, can you come to this event in six months' time? We're talking about this." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, sure. I'll do it," because it's in six months. It's delayed pain, right? It's not something you're gonna have to face. Zoom forward to that day and imagine going to that event. If you want to go, then brilliant. You should be saying yes. You made the right decision because you'd want to go. But if you think in six months' time, you're like, "Oh, no, actually in six months I'd be like, 'Oh, I've taken on too much. I really can't do this. I don't wanna do this'"- Then it helps you say no to things that you, you, that you actually wouldn't want to do.

Alex Partridge 42:15 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 42:15 So I'd really give that a go. And if you're questioning something, zoom forward to the day. Imagine, imagine going to it or completing that task, or imagine a situation where you're, you are doing what you've gonna promise to do. Would you be happy with it? It could be a weekend away with friends. Like, they go, and, "Yeah, yeah, I'll come with you," but you actually don't wanna go.

Alex Partridge 42:29 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 42:29 You don't like the place, or you don't like what they're going to do. They're going paintballing, and you hate paintballing. Imagine going paintballing, and then decide whether you wanna go or not.

Alex Partridge 42:38 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 42:38 I think it's a great way. I mean, some of those hacks are really, really useful. And you can't change the way that your brain is, but you can certainly use things to help, you know, illuminate areas that-

Alex Partridge 42:47 Mm

Dr. Alex George 42:47 ... perhaps otherwise can go astray.

Alex Partridge 42:49 Yeah, no, it's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. It's such a simple thing, just to put some distance between the stimuli, stimulus, and the, and the response, I guess.

Dr. Alex George 42:58 Mm.

Alex Partridge 42:59 And I suppose the same could, uh, be applied to rejection sensitive dysphoria, is, is that perhaps you have a reaction to rejection. And actually, if you put time between that and your r- response, you're actually giving yourself time to process-

Dr. Alex George 43:11 Mm

Alex Partridge 43:11 ... process the decision, and, and to make a better-

Dr. Alex George 43:13 Yeah

Alex Partridge 43:14 ... better, better decision.

Dr. Alex George 43:14 And also with re- rejection sensitivity dysphoria, it's realizing what are reje- real rejections and what rejections are in your mind.

Alex Partridge 43:24 Mm, perceived ones.

Dr. Alex George 43:24 A lot of time in, like, relationships, people can be like, "Oh, that person's rejecting me," or, "They don't like me," or whatever it is. You've actually created a rejection.

Alex Partridge 43:34 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 43:34 Whether a rejection's real or not doesn't matter. It's how you respond to it, isn't it? It doesn't matter. Everything's in your head anyway. I mean, such a thing that spins you out really when you realize the entire... Everything is... Your reality is what goes on between your two ears. That's it, right? That, that's your reality. The stimulus is outside, you know. W- the way you react to it is, is what matters.

Alex Partridge 43:53 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 43:54 And, you know, we can't control what happens in the outside world. Nothing beyond our own bodies is within our control. Nothing. Literally nothing at all. You can only control your action and what you're doing and what you're reacting to something. And that can be an external reaction, i.e., how you react to your partner or your friend or your colleague, you know, and being, you know, be- behaving and being the person you want to be in that situation. And then the other part of that reaction is what happens internally. How are you speaking to yourself? Are you putting yourself down saying, "Oh, I'm not good enough for that person," or, "I'm in this job, I'm not good enough for this job"? You know, people reject themselves from scenarios that they are not being rejected from, but in doing so, then become rejected because of their-

Alex Partridge 44:29 Mm

Dr. Alex George 44:29 ... behaviors, you know. So it's recognizing that within yourself and dealing with those. You know, they say all the time relationships, the biggest battle in the relationship is de- you know, dealing with the demons in your own mind.

Alex Partridge 44:38 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 44:38 If you can deal with those, you're, you're ha- you know, you're at least half the way there.

Alex Partridge 44:42 It might not even be a response to the re- the rejection or perceived rejection that's happening in front of you in the moment. It might... That... What happens in front of you actually might be a reminder, or it might snap you back-

Dr. Alex George 44:53 Sure

Alex Partridge 44:53 ... to a, to a trauma-

Dr. Alex George 44:55 Mm

Alex Partridge 44:55 ... or to a p- an event that happened-

Dr. Alex George 44:57 Mm

Alex Partridge 44:57 ... in your early years, or not necessarily in your early years, but a significant event. And actually, the event that's happened to you right there right then, you're not responding to that. You're, you're responding to a memory-

Dr. Alex George 45:07 Mm

Alex Partridge 45:07 ... that that event has, has brought up.

Dr. Alex George 45:09 Mm. Well, of course, you know, our brains, our thoughts are a highlight reel of what's happened to us mixed together and jumbled together to create a perceived potential for the future. Our thoughts can only look backwards, right? Everything we look forward is a projection based on our past. It's not a reality, is it? Our thoughts tell us, like, you know, there's a great example of one that I, that I heard. I think it really... I think it's a really great way of looking at this. Um, you know, you're at a bar with your girlfriend. Uh, the girlfriend goes to the, the bar, and y- she's talking to a guy, and they're, they're laughing, the h- like, having a hug and stuff. You're like, "Oh, I thought we went to get a drink. What are they doing? Now who's she talking to over there?" Um, and they come back, and you go, "Oh, like, who was that?" Like, and they're like, "Oh, that's my cousin." Right? So you've created... Maybe you've been rejected in the past. Maybe you've been in an experience where someone has been unfaithful to you, whatever it is.

Alex Partridge 45:59 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 45:59 And you look back on your past, and then that jumbled in your mind. Your mind projects what's happening in front of you. Obviously, it doesn't know what's happening. It's just a projection of that. Then they come and sit down, and it was, was nowhere near what, what you thought it was. So I think it's just being aware of that, is that our brains will always take a negative skew, 'cause a negative skew is seen as protective.

Alex Partridge 46:17 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 46:18 Like, it's s- s- psychologically protective to have a negative skew, and it will only jumble stuff up from the past anyway. And the other big thing is I've learned is, and to really get this [laughs] into our minds, is that our thoughts are not reality, and our thoughts are not the truth. We equate thought with truth. What you're thinking isn't the truth. It's just a thought. I hate to tell you. Like, it's just a thought, and you gotta tell yourself that as well. It's like, it's just a thought.

Alex Partridge 46:41 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 46:41 Don't have to engage with thoughts. You don't have to believe thoughts. You don't have to follow thoughts along. Thoughts can just pass. And I would say the best thing you can do is when a negative thought comes up, watch it, thank the thought, and let it go. When you de-power negative emotions and you shine a light on them for what they are, just thoughts, irrelevance really in your mind, and you let them go, what you replace that with is clarity, and from clarity you make good judgment. Most of the breakthroughs in science, most of the breakthroughs in the world have come from a place of cla- clarity. People are sat under trees, hit in the head by an apple. They're out walking. I certainly think most of my best ideas that have come to fruition, have become successful campaigns or whatever it's been, has come from a place of clarity. They've never come from me worrying about something. How creative can you be when you worry?

Alex Partridge 47:25 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 47:25 You can't, can you? You're just jumbles of nonsense in your head.

Alex Partridge 47:29 So interesting when you said you, you instantly default to the negative because that's a protection.

Dr. Alex George 47:34 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 47:34 It's like when someone asks you, say your boss asks you for a quick chat without any context, and you instantly catastrophize.

Dr. Alex George 47:41 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 47:41 You instantly think you're gonna get fired.

Dr. Alex George 47:42 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 47:43 When in actual fact, it's probably just something completely harmless. And when that kind of thing happens to me now, I never let someone put me in that position.

Dr. Alex George 47:52 Mm.

Alex Partridge 47:52 So if someone asks me for a, for a quick chat or a meeting, I'm instantly like, "Okay, just can I have a summary?"

Dr. Alex George 47:57 Mm.

Alex Partridge 47:58 'Cause otherwise-

Dr. Alex George 47:59 Yes

Alex Partridge 47:59 ... my mind is gonna catastrophize and think that my world's ending until I get some reassurance that it's not.

Dr. Alex George 48:04 Mm.

Alex Partridge 48:05 Especially if it's, there's some time between the invitation-

Dr. Alex George 48:08 Mm

Alex Partridge 48:08 ... to a, for a meeting, just sticking to that example, and the meeting taking place, where I then find out-

Dr. Alex George 48:12 Mm

Alex Partridge 48:12 ... that, that actually it's, it's a harmless- ... meeting.

Dr. Alex George 48:16 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 48:16 And of course, my mind catastrophizes. I don't let people put that, put me in that situation anymore.

Dr. Alex George 48:21 Mm. It's a great idea, and you can just say to someone, I think being really open about it and say, "You know, just so this doesn't cause anxiety or worry for me, can you just give me somewhere?"

Alex Partridge 48:28 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 48:28 And most of the time people are like, "Oh my gosh, no. There's nothing to worry about. It's just about this project that we've got coming out-

Alex Partridge 48:32 Mm

Dr. Alex George 48:32 ... I want you to have a look at," or whatever, you know? So just-

Alex Partridge 48:34 Mm

Dr. Alex George 48:34 ... bringing that forward and just highlighting to someone so that they, so they're not... they know. 'Cause a lot of the time if people think, "Oh my gosh, this is causing you anxiety," they don't want you to be-

Alex Partridge 48:42 Mm

Dr. Alex George 48:42 ... worried or whatever, you know? That's a great tip, actually. Good

Dr. Alex George 48:45 idea.

Alex Partridge 48:45 Alex, I ask all my guests for-

Dr. Alex George 48:48 Mm

Alex Partridge 48:49 ... an item in their life that most represents ADHD.

Dr. Alex George 48:51 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 48:53 This is truly fascinating. I can't wait-

Dr. Alex George 48:55 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 48:55 ... to hear the explanation. You said a hairdryer.

Dr. Alex George 48:58 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 48:59 Um, yeah. I'll give it to you, 'cause I'm truly-

Dr. Alex George 49:04 And then actually the funny story behind this is this is the exact hairdryer, the, the mode of one that kind of relaxes me sound-wise the most, and I actually have a hairdryer tattoo. That was a funny one for you.

Alex Partridge 49:14 You actually do have a tattoo? That's, that's, that's actually mad.

Dr. Alex George 49:16 Yeah, I have a hairdryer tattoo. It's a very retro style tattoo, which I think is kind of fun. Um-

Alex Partridge 49:20 Yeah

Dr. Alex George 49:20 ... and the reason I have a hairdryer tattoo or the reason that you've presented a hair- hairdryer is because the white noise from this really relaxes me.

Alex Partridge 49:28 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 49:28 And I said to you, um, earlier in the episode that as a child I didn't sleep, uh, well at all. And the one time that I would sleep is my mum would be, as you would be, drying your hair after a shower or whatever, and then I'd fall asleep, and the white noise is amazing for calming. So white noise and brown noise, which are the common as well, um, the reason that we find it, or it's believed that we find it so relaxing is that, um, when we're in the womb, there's placental blood flow. And placental blood flow, if you think of the whoosh, whoosh noise it makes, it's white noise, it's brown noise, and it like, it, it's very relaxing-

Alex Partridge 50:00 Mm

Dr. Alex George 50:00 ... to the kind of primitive brain. So as a child with ADHD, it really, really helped, and throughout my life I've just found the white noise just so relaxing. Um, your electricity bill will be really expensive-

Alex Partridge 50:11 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 50:11 ... if you run a hairdryer all the time. So like if you use YouTube or there's loads of apps now that have a white noise and brown noise. I'd really recommend brown noise. It's slightly more... It's a calmer version, I think. I prefer brown noise. Um, that can really, really help people sleep. And a, a lot of the time it, it's very common amongst, amongst us ADHDers, needing something to really help us unwind. So in the evening time, if you're looking to sleep, um, you know, stick on a, a, a white noise playlist or hairdryer noise-

Alex Partridge 50:39 Mm

Dr. Alex George 50:39 ... and you'll find that it can really relax you. But yeah, I just thought it was funny to have the tattoo, 'cause I was like, all my life it's been the kind of comfort for me, um, in times of stress or anxiety or even just unwinding.

Alex Partridge 50:50 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 50:50 It's self-care for me. It's part of my self-care. Uh, and so yeah, this, this hairdryer has definitely helped me. It's quite funny. I thought, I assumed... I was like, "Did you get this from my house?" [laughs]

Alex Partridge 51:00 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 51:01 Uh, very, very impressed that you got a hold of it, but it's just funny this is the exact one that I, I yeah, find use.

Alex Partridge 51:06 It's so interesting, because I, I, in my flat, I, I... next to my desk, I have a lamp, and it makes this humming noise.

Dr. Alex George 51:13 Mm.

Alex Partridge 51:13 Like quite low, but noticeable, um, to the point where sometimes I've had someone over and we've done some work together and they've said, "Can you turn that off? It's quite irritating."

Dr. Alex George 51:21 Mm.

Alex Partridge 51:21 But actually for me, I wasn't even aware, but-

Dr. Alex George 51:23 Mm

Alex Partridge 51:23 ... I noticeably missed it-

Dr. Alex George 51:27 Mm

Alex Partridge 51:27 ... when, when, when I had to turn it off.

Dr. Alex George 51:29 Mm.

Alex Partridge 51:29 So I guess that's kind of the same thing. It was a very like mmm, very like low-

Dr. Alex George 51:34 Yeah

Alex Partridge 51:35 ... humming noise. And I think actually that's enough to just give my brain a little bit to, to, to, to stabilize the chatter-

Dr. Alex George 51:42 Mm. Mm

Alex Partridge 51:42 ... that's going on in my head and to enable-

Dr. Alex George 51:43 Mm

Alex Partridge 51:43 ... enable me to really focus-

Dr. Alex George 51:45 Mm. Mm

Alex Partridge 51:45 ... on, on what I'm doing on my computer.

Dr. Alex George 51:47 Do you know what I mean? Other people use things like, um, you know, rain sounds and stuff. I think it's finding what works for you.

Alex Partridge 51:52 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 51:52 But I think most people will have a sound or frequency that relaxes them. Argu- arguably music isn't that different. I mean, music is a sound, it's a noise that relaxes you. People often have certain artists that they find helps them just unwind. Classical music has-

Alex Partridge 52:05 Mm

Dr. Alex George 52:06 ... classically been one that people use to relax and, you know, um, you know, when they want to be creative or they want to tap into flow or they just wanna like just zone out for a bit, they listen to classical music. So it's not so different.

Alex Partridge 52:17 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 52:17 It's just a sound. But um, people laugh about it, but a lot of people u-

Alex Partridge 52:20 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 52:21 Like I can tell you now-

Alex Partridge 52:21 You can put that on the table if you want. Yeah

Dr. Alex George 52:22 ... there's a lot of people, I'm sure, they are, people can put it in the comments on the, on the YouTube-

Alex Partridge 52:27 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 52:27 ... or whatever.

Alex Partridge 52:28 See you there.

Dr. Alex George 52:28 Like how many... Yeah.

Alex Partridge 52:29 Version.

Dr. Alex George 52:29 Or in your socials. Like do you listen to white noise? Do you find hairdryers relaxing?

Alex Partridge 52:35 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 52:35 I mean, people like Wayne Rooney, I mean, famously, and as I understand, if it's true, you know, you had the, um, Hoover on to sleep or the Dyson or whatever he uses to, to sleep.

Alex Partridge 52:44 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 52:44 So, you know, people do do

Dr. Alex George 52:46 it.

Alex Partridge 52:46 Are you able to share your journey with us that you've had with ADHD medication?

Dr. Alex George 52:53 Mm-hmm. Sure. Um, I, I mean, so I was like diagnosed with ADHD, uh, it'll be... This was about m- maybe 20 months ago, 20 months ago-ish, and the psychiatrist very sensibly said, "Look, let's work on the stuff that we should work on first." Alcohol was clearly the first thing, um, to think about. Uh, and then let's optimize everything, so exercise, using all the different things, and let's see what we get with, with medication, if, if it's required, if it's useful, and so on. Um, and yeah, so, uh, I personally find medication, particularly so I use a short-acting, a medication, short-acting stimulant helpful for focus and concentration, particularly if there's tasks that are necessary, but perhaps things that don't stimulate my ADHD brain, brain as much. So if I need to do particular studies or something that I have find hard to concentrate, or if I need to do an essay and I, I really need to do it, but I, I, I can't seem to click into it or get, get into it, that's really helpful. But actually interestingly, I now kind of, I use it as and when. You know, some people will use, um... I don't know what your experience or whether you take medication, but some people use medication every single day, and that's obviously, obviously absolutely fine. Um, some people use it, uh, occasionally or regularly, or sometimes people use it infrequently or not at all. I would say I'm probably now in the place where I use it sometimes, and it's more about what's going on in my life- That matters. And I think the reason this is is that I've moved very much towards, um, making my life more friendly to the way my brain works. So I have a lot more blank space time where I'll create space to do... I know what tasks I need to do, but the way in which I engage in those tasks and get them done is down to me. So there's a lot more autonomy-

Alex Partridge 54:32 Mm

Dr. Alex George 54:32 ... rather than having days that are so diarized, if that makes sense, and that has really helped me. I still need to do the same stuff. I still need to get it done by roughly the similar time frames, but the way in which I engage in those tasks are very different. And so what that means is when I'm in a very productive state, I smash through 20 different things in, like, an hour. When I'm in an unproductive state, I'll go for a walk, and I think that has really helped me flow, ebb and flow with my energy level, and I'd actually really advise that for anyone that's neurotypical as well. You know, it, it... sometimes you're fighting against the tide when you're really not able to concentrate. Think, "Why? When's the last time I went for a walk? Do I need just to have half an hour listen to music? Maybe I need to come back to this task tomorrow. Maybe I should do a different task that's more exciting for me right now, come back to this current task when I'm more able to." And I found those techniques really helpful, and therefore medication I've not needed as often or as much, but I do think that probably just depends on what's going on in my, in my life. If I had to work a 9:00 to 5:00 job in an office, then I think I'd be medicated, and that's the sad truth. I think I would have to be medicated because I don't think I could engage with that environment. Whereas I am effectively my own boss, got a great team around me, but I have created a life which I think is very, very useful for someone that's-

Alex Partridge 55:41 Mm

Dr. Alex George 55:42 ... not neurotypical because I can, I can cr- create my time and use my time in the way that my brain finds most useful-

Alex Partridge 55:49 Mm

Dr. Alex George 55:50 ... or helpful.

Alex Partridge 55:50 That's so interesting because I feel exactly the same. I don't take ADHD medication, and I think if I had to work in an office, as you said, I, I most likely would-

Dr. Alex George 56:00 Mm

Alex Partridge 56:00 ... because I think I'm in a position, a very privileged position, that I'm able to wake up when I want, take as many breaks-

Dr. Alex George 56:06 Mm

Alex Partridge 56:06 ... as I want, work whenever I want. Most of my work happens in between midnight and 4:00 AM.

Dr. Alex George 56:12 Mm.

Alex Partridge 56:12 Um, and most of my ideas come s- like similar to what you said, when I'm out having a walk or, or running. If I was-

Dr. Alex George 56:19 Mm

Alex Partridge 56:19 ... if I had to go to an office, then I think it'd be very different.

Dr. Alex George 56:22 Mm.

Alex Partridge 56:22 Um, 'cause I, I've tried to f- s- force myself to sit down at my desk for two or three hours, and my girlfriend laughs all the time because I'm going to my office. Five minutes later, I'm out. I go in there for 10 minutes, then I'm out again. I'm all over the place, but I get the work done, and it, it... and I get it done to a really good standard, but it might take me five hours, and perhaps it takes a neurotypical person an hour to do that. But for me-

Dr. Alex George 56:43 And equally, the opposite is true. Like, sometimes when I'm in a flow state, I get a ridiculous amount of stuff done. Like, if I'm recording content or creating, I'm like bam, bam, bam. Like, I am a very, very productive person. I think-

Alex Partridge 56:53 Mm

Dr. Alex George 56:53 ... I do get a, a lot done. I mean, I, I do, but equally... but I think that happens in the right states. I can equally-

Alex Partridge 57:00 Mm

Dr. Alex George 57:00 ... get nothing done. You know, so there's... it's the... and I think it can be very frustrating when you're in that state where you can't get something done, isn't it? That's what's frustrating, but if you kind of pra- I think it's finding the... what works for you, and if you do, then I think you can just get into-

Alex Partridge 57:12 Mm

Dr. Alex George 57:12 ... those really great flow states. Um, but I think, you know, it's important to say I think medication does have a key role. I definitely have found it incredibly beneficial in periods of time specifically where I've been, like, really struggling with it or there's certain things I need to do or whatever. I think medication does have a really amazing role. And there's people that I've spoken to in the community, in the ADHD community, who've said that it's changed their lives, and I think for me, like, I can certainly see that. I think I can certainly see, you know, the role that it can play.

Alex Partridge 57:37 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 57:37 So I wouldn't... I've got nothing bad to say about it. I think it's, I think it's working out what works for you. It's like anything in life. You know, there's a lots of options out there.

Alex Partridge 57:46 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 57:46 See what works for you. Uh, engage in the things that work for you, and then if things don't work, don't take that as a personal... I think sometimes with medications or people think, "Oh, that hasn't worked for me, therefore that's it. I'm, I'm screwed." Don't feel that way. That's a very... Your brain will obviously do that 'cause we've talked about the negative view of the brain. Don't have that view. Um, sometimes you need to try different medications to find what works for you, or, uh, like we've said, perhaps it's looking at the life

Dr. Alex George 58:10 and what's going on around you. A lot of workplaces are getting much better at understanding that people do need to be allowed flexibility and autonomy at how they engage and how they deal with ADHD, how they become most effective. Um, and I think the more that we move in that direction, the better. I mean, I'm doing a master's at the moment, um, public mental health master's at King's, uh, and they know I have ADHD. Um, they have made, um, uh, changes, you know, to the way that I engage both in exam but also the coursework to allow me greater degree of flexibility to, to, to get it, to get it done, and I think that is really good, and the more the world is like... has that view and realizes that we are very capable people, we just need to do things in our own way, I think the better. And, and I think workplaces can do that. Workplaces can be really supportive if they choose to be.

Alex Partridge 58:56 Yes. Absolutely. I mean, simple accommodations for neurodiversity can make a massive difference. I think essentially judge people on their outcomes rather than their processes, and if they want to start work half an hour later or earlier in order to not get overwhelmed by the rush-hour traffic-

Dr. Alex George 59:12 Mm

Alex Partridge 59:12 ... then that's just... you know, a simple accommodation-

Dr. Alex George 59:14 Mm

Alex Partridge 59:14 ... like that is actually-

Dr. Alex George 59:15 Yeah

Alex Partridge 59:16 ... a basic-

Dr. Alex George 59:16 It's really interesting 'cause you said that you work at night, whereas I am the complete opposite, so I am a, a... My mornings are my favorite part of the day. I love... I'm up at s- I get up 6:30 every day, and I get up the same time every day because I find that gives me great stability. Um,

Dr. Alex George 59:31 uh, uh, and actually for anyone that struggles sleeping, the first thing to try... Well, two things before you do that. Do you drink caffeine, and do you have alcohol? Get rid of... If you don't sleep, don't drink caffeine, don't drink alcohol if you're bad, if you're a bad sleeper. Um, the next thing I find helpful, um, is to have to get up the same time every day. It's very hard to control when you fall asleep. It's very easy to control when you get up, and the brain will lock in on the time you get up, and eventually it will find the rhythm, even if you're knackered. I mean, the, the natural thing to do is if you're... This is a tangent now, but if you're had a bad night's sleep, I have... I, I often have bad night's sleeps, right? I had a bad night's sleep- The, um, natural thing is to try, "Well, I'll lie in a bit more." That's the worst thing to do. If you're tired, get up at the same time, have a bit of a nap in the afternoon, and try again the next night. Don't try and compensate with lie-ins. That actually completely messes up the sleep cycle. Just get up at the same time. But, uh, back to what we were saying. Um, it's, [laughs] um, it's interesting 'cause you- you're productive, productive clearly as a night owl, or what people call a night owl, whereas I'm a morning get up throughout my day. I like to be in bed. I like to be asleep before 10:00. Like, I'm literally asleep before 10:00, like, most nights. Very rare. I... On New Year's Eve, I was asleep at 10:00-

Alex Partridge 1:00:42 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:00:42 ... I think. You know, I'm not a nighttime person. But that's the thing. We're all different. Even within the neurodivergent community, we're still gonna have huge diversity in how people engage with life and how they do things. So, you know, lean into what works for you. My brother, uh, uh, is not diagnosed with ADHD. He's going through the process at the moment. I think it's quite likely, but obviously he needs to be diagnosed and, and, and have the assessment properly. But he's very different to me. He's much more like you are. Very, very creative at that time of night. Up late, doesn't want to be up early in the morning. That's fine.

Alex Partridge 1:01:11 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:01:12 You know, work with what you... Listen to your body. I mean, we'd all be a lot happier if we listened to our bodies and understood the way that our bodies engage with the world, and follow that as intuitively as we can. Obviously, while keeping some of the things we said before of, you know, go to the gym, don't listen to your brain going, "I can't be bothered." But I mean, [laughs] generally speaking, if you're effective at midnight, then great.

Alex Partridge 1:01:32 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:01:32 Engage with that.

Alex Partridge 1:01:35 After your diagnosis, I- I read that you said that you always, you tried to hide and conform, and I was wondering if you intuitively listen to your body now, and I guess mask less.

Dr. Alex George 1:01:47 Mm. Yes, absolutely. I'm just now me. I think for a long time I was just trying to be... Because it all came down to what happened when I was at school, being told, "Mm, you know, he's probably not gonna make that much of himself effectively." I then was like, I either conform, become... I didn't know what neurotypical meant then, but let's, let's add that kind of thought process.

Alex Partridge 1:02:05 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:02:05 I effectively was thinking, "Either I'm neurotypical or I'm screwed." So I forced myself back into the classroom. I forced myself, to great detriment actually. Like, trying to be someone you're not is, is, is a, is a, is a terrible form of self-harm.

Alex Partridge 1:02:17 Exhausting as well.

Dr. Alex George 1:02:17 It's one of the most exhausting, awful forms of self-harm, is being someone you aren't. Anyone knows that. You know, like you start at university and people try and reinvent themselves. Then you go back to who you are, and actually it's exhausting, that period of time when you're trying to be someone else. So it was very tiring. School was very, very difficult, trying to do it the neurotypical way. Um, uh, and I think the, the sense of relief since I was diagnosed of, "Oh, I'm just gonna be me," like, acceptance of that was brilliant. Like, I don't get annoyed at myself on unproductive days. I wanted to write some of the essay yesterday. Um, I'm doing the essay right now, and, doing an essay right now, and I wanted to do some yesterday. I was tired yesterday. I wasn't in a productive space. I knew that I needed that recharge. And like today, now I feel productive, and I'm gonna go and really bash out some of that [laughs] essay this afternoon. Whereas in the past, I'd have got really annoyed at myself. So that negative self-talk would have kicked in, and be like, "Oh, see, other people would be able to do this. I'm just lazy. I'm not being disciplined." You reframe a lot of your language and a lot of the way you interact with yourself. You become a lot kinder. Become a lot kinder to yourself. Your positivity on the world is better.

Alex Partridge 1:03:18 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:03:18 You know, I see the world in a more pr- positive way. And one of the best things I do each day now to try and set my day, you know, adding on top of the cold shower and all that stuff which I find very helpful, is I start with gratitude. I wake up every day. You know, we started, um, I launched a, a, a men's mental fitness app called Mettle, M-E-T-T-L-E. It started with Bear Grylls, Paul McKenna, some amazing experts from academia, uh, as well, a fantastic psychiatrist and team that's been involved with that. And it's all about using, um, uh, uh, meditation, mindfulness, mind hacking to improve men's mental fitness. It's an area I'm so passionate about. And using that in the morning to get your brain into a grateful, optimistic, positive state of mind, like the difference it makes to your day is unbelievable. So anyone listening, whether you're neurotypical or you, or you've got ADHD, give that-

Alex Partridge 1:04:05 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:04:05 ... give Mettle a try. We're really proud of what we're achieving there. But, you know, since I've, since I've started really focusing on that and thinking about mindset in the day, the way you interact with the rest of the world completely changes. I mean, you said about the positivity or the con- uh, confidence that you see or whatever. I'm, I'm not more or less confident than anyone else really, but I've just learnt the confident mindset. And when you start learning how to be confident, you're able to be more confident.

Alex Partridge 1:04:28 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:04:28 You know? And, and I think that work, using, using the science, using Mettle, using mind hacking, using, uh, you know, uh, the kind of techniques I've learnt have really, really helped me in all those fields, I think.

Alex Partridge 1:04:40 Every week I ask my-

Dr. Alex George 1:04:41 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:04:41 ... Instagram community to, to, to share one of their-

Dr. Alex George 1:04:44 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:04:44 ... their woes that they-

Dr. Alex George 1:04:46 Mm-hmm

Alex Partridge 1:04:46 ... that comes up in their ADHD life. And, and I read it to my guest, and we see-

Dr. Alex George 1:04:50 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:04:50 ... if there's relatability. And, um, right, let's... [laughs] Gosh, yeah, I think this is a, uh, very relatable one.

Dr. Alex George 1:05:02 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:05:02 "We're only three weeks into 2024-"

Dr. Alex George 1:05:05 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:05:06 "... and I've already got three parking tickets. I always forget to pay them within the time period, and then they double." Gosh, how many... Do, uh-

Dr. Alex George 1:05:19 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:05:19 ... parking tickets? Is that, is that a thing? Is that a worry-

Dr. Alex George 1:05:21 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:05:21 ... you've experienced?

Dr. Alex George 1:05:21 I've had that. I've, I've had that in the past, that's for sure. Um, uh, where you kind of put things off. You know, the b- the best thing with that bit of advice is to deal with things now. You know, um, one of the biggest things that I've learnt is that, uh, that, that the sphere of influence on life is very important. So whenever there's something that's could cause anxiety or does cause anxiety or worry, go sphere of influence. Is this in my sphere of influence to deal with right now? If it is, deal with it immediately. Let nothing but an emergency get in your way of dealing with this right now. If it isn't, let it go. With a parking ticket, you've picked it up, you've seen it, pay it. Pay it immediately and, and have it done and dusted. Um, we do it a lot. We know we do, uh, with ADHD.

Alex Partridge 1:06:05 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:06:05 Other things are more shiny or interesting or more whatever. Just deal with it in the moment. And it is one of those things. There's some things where- It's reality of the world. You know, they don't... I don't think they have a system to be accommodating for people with ADHD, that we have, having to gain... to deal with something that is what it is, and the best way to deal with that specific thing is just to do it immediately. And I would say there are examples of that in life where we just need to learn that-

Alex Partridge 1:06:30 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:06:30 ... and that's just practice, right? Just focus on it, uh, uh, and deal with it. Pay it and, and be done with it.

Alex Partridge 1:06:36 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:06:36 Because it is really annoying. It is re- it is really annoying, isn't it, when those things happen. I don't know about you, but I've really learnt that just, just sort it now immediately and, uh, and then it's done with.

Alex Partridge 1:06:46 Yeah. No, absolutely, and it's great advice. It's, it... There's two bits. So there's that, essentially, just do it. As soon as you need to do something, do it, because we will forget about it.

Dr. Alex George 1:06:54 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:06:54 And then we'll get... The only- We'll only get reminded of it when we get that letter through the post saying-

Dr. Alex George 1:06:59 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:06:59 ... we haven't paid it, and then it's doubled. So that's that ADHD tax-

Dr. Alex George 1:07:01 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:07:01 ... which, which strikes. But also, if you're doing a bit of work or you're doing something, you're doing it, and then you get an idea, something shiny, a new thought, a question that you just, you're compelled to know the answer, rather than going down the Google rabbit hole or go on YouTube, just, just write-

Dr. Alex George 1:07:19 Write it down

Alex Partridge 1:07:19 ... write it down. Like, park it and save it for later.

Dr. Alex George 1:07:23 I always have ideas when I'm running or walking.

Alex Partridge 1:07:24 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:07:24 I have to write them down. My notes is full of just random ideas, and a lot of them are actually, I think, quite good ideas. Some of them are terrible ideas, but I write them down now, and I deal with what the task is I'm doing. Now, it's really, really good piece of advice. Write it down. The other one that really annoys me, um, I wonder whether people relate to this, is just, like, I cannot remember certain things. Like, my own mobile number, I had to change my number, um, like two years ago or whatever. Um, uh, and basically I changed it, and it's just taken me two years to learn my new number, and it's rather embarrassing. Um, Abby, my assistant, she, she knows how annoying it is for me that I cannot remember. Even now, I have to really work at it to think about what my number is-

Alex Partridge 1:08:00 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:08:00 ... to tell someone. Then you have to be like, "Oh, I've got a new number. Like, let me just check it. Sorry." But you know in your side, like, it's been two years.

Alex Partridge 1:08:06 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:08:06 It's very embarrassing. The other one is, like, dates. I can't remember my parents' dates of birth. I can't remember my brother's dates of birth. Like, I really struggle with that. Imagine relationships, you know, people are like-

Alex Partridge 1:08:17 It can cause so many arguments

Dr. Alex George 1:08:17 ... "Why can't you remember my birthday?" I'm like, "I can't remember. I just can't." And, like, people think it's because you're, don't care about it, but it's just not the way the brain functions.

Alex Partridge 1:08:25 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:08:25 Like, my brain doesn't... You know, people... You know, I used to work obviously in the hospital, and I, and I remember working on the wards, uh, on, like, care of the elderly wards, and we'd have patients in there for weeks who'd been in the hospital, and they'd have, like, 30 patients, and I could remember every blood test result pretty much, and I'd remember, like, a week's worth for each patient, which is, you know, quite a lot to remember. But my brain would decide that that is something it's gonna remember everything of. I'd remember the potassium, like, five days in a row for, like, every patient.

Alex Partridge 1:08:53 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:08:53 But I then can't remember, like, you know, someone's name that's... You know, someone's in front of us. "I've met you," saying, "I can't remember your name." Or, you know, that-

Alex Partridge 1:09:00 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:09:00 That is... That's happened to me a lot in life, and it is very frustrating. I remember certain things to the end... I love my cars, for example.

Alex Partridge 1:09:06 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:09:06 And there was a point where I could tell someone the nought to 60 of every single car, production car pretty much, that was made. You check me. I, I remember. I can't now. You know, my brain decides that's really something it wants to know, and I think that is very frustrating. So I'm sure people...

Alex Partridge 1:09:20 Yeah.

Dr. Alex George 1:09:20 Do, do you find... Can you remember nu- numbers? Like, are you good with, like, dates, numbers, numbers?

Alex Partridge 1:09:23 Numbers, awful. Dates, awful.

Dr. Alex George 1:09:25 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:09:25 Um, yeah, it's, it's... Anniversaries is the main... And family members' birthdays-

Dr. Alex George 1:09:30 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:09:30 ... um, is always a point of conflict, especially anniversaries in relationships, and-

Dr. Alex George 1:09:34 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:09:35 ... names I'm awful with. You, lu- you have the same name as me, so that was an easy one.

Dr. Alex George 1:09:38 Yeah, yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:09:38 But I, I'm terrible. I'll meet someone, shake their hand, they'll tell me their name, there's not a chance I'll remember that.

Dr. Alex George 1:09:44 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:09:44 But I'll know that under my bed, I know where my bracelet is. It's next to that bowl-

Dr. Alex George 1:09:48 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:09:48 ... underneath that white T-shirt in the corner next to my whatever. You know, I know where silly things are, but day-to-day important stuff, anniversaries...

Dr. Alex George 1:09:59 That's why I'm rubbish at q- I think, I th- I, I wonder... Well, actually, it's a good question. Are ADHDers good at pub, at, like, pub quizzes? 'Cause I am awful at pub quizzes.

Alex Partridge 1:10:06 I'm awful at pub quizzes.

Dr. Alex George 1:10:07 I have very... Are you good at them?

Alex Partridge 1:10:08 No. Aw- awful. Absolutely awful.

Dr. Alex George 1:10:10 Um, specific knowledge I'll be, like, so good at.

Alex Partridge 1:10:12 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:10:12 Like, there's something, there's a topic that I know about, I'll know it. Like, I was, I've always found, like, of course, very interesting, 9/11 to be like, you know, what I remember growing up and, like, 9/11 happening, and it was just like a, "Whoa, this is a crazy thing's happened." And I became really, I'd say, almost obsessively wanting to know about it because it was such a big point in my childhood, like, that's happened. It was crazy, right?

Alex Partridge 1:10:32 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:10:32 Everyone around the world remembers where they were. And I knew everything virtually there was to be known about 9/11, I would say, in terms of what was in public discourse. I watched every YouTube video, every documentary, read most of the books, read Condoleezza Rice's... the books about Condoleezza Rice, the books about all the conspiracies, everything. Read all of it. Um, and I'd remember all of it. But then if it's another topic that's to, like, even a show I've been watching loads, but I'm not, my brain doesn't decide it wants to know-

Alex Partridge 1:10:57 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:10:57 ... I can't remember anything about it at all, and it's just like, it's either all... it's all or nothing almost, isn't it? Very frustrating.

Alex Partridge 1:11:04 I always say I'm the worst person to have on a pub quiz team. I have a, I have a very narrow lane of knowledge. But outside of that, I really struggle to maintain in- information.

Dr. Alex George 1:11:17 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11:17 Al- al- also, if I'm having a conversation, like, word retrieval can be a real issue.

Dr. Alex George 1:11:21 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11:21 Stuff I know, but in the moment when I'm talking to someone, like, I will, will just have a brain malfunction, and I won't remember a word that I've used every day for my entire life.

Dr. Alex George 1:11:30 Mm. Mm. Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11:30 And then it will come back to me after that social encounter's finished.

Dr. Alex George 1:11:33 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11:33 I'm like, "Oh, damn, that happened again. I looked stupid in front of that person."

Dr. Alex George 1:11:36 Mm. Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11:36 "But I know that word."

Dr. Alex George 1:11:37 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:11:38 "It's a word I use every day, but in that encounter, it just left me. I couldn't retrieve it from my brain."

Dr. Alex George 1:11:43 And use it. Yeah, it's a funny one. That's definitely one I find those annoying. I fi- I hate pub quizzes. I hate trying to remember dates-

Alex Partridge 1:11:48 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:11:48 ... and birthdays and things like that. But then, yeah, I can remember I remember, like, you know, studying for exams and I, because I found medicine, like, so fascinating and shiny, I'd read a book and I'd remember... Like, I'd read the Oxford Handbook, and I could remember the color, the page number, the pictures in it, the order that the diagnose-

Alex Partridge 1:12:06 Hmm

Dr. Alex George 1:12:06 ... the order the treatment was in, and like I have a very creative, very calculating... I'm very good at working out problems, so it was great for, like, med school exams. I mean, it was fantastic for, but then, yeah, I then couldn't tell you what my mum's [laughs] date of birth was. So, but I don't know.

Alex Partridge 1:12:20 Yeah.

Dr. Alex George 1:12:21 I think arguably it's handy to be, to know the medicine better maybe.

Alex Partridge 1:12:24 Yeah.

Dr. Alex George 1:12:24 I was like, "Mum, look, you know, I don't know your date of birth, but hopefully I can remember some stuff to help you."

Alex Partridge 1:12:27 Yeah. There are bits with, that come with ADHD, like we've just spoken about there, that are frustrating.

Dr. Alex George 1:12:31 Write it down. The biggest thing is write it down.

Alex Partridge 1:12:33 Write it down. Just write it down.

Dr. Alex George 1:12:33 Just if you have your notes section-

Alex Partridge 1:12:34 Yeah

Dr. Alex George 1:12:34 ... write down important dates and things.

Alex Partridge 1:12:35 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:12:35 Use a diary, use calendars, use diaries. If you, if... I put all my social occasions now in the diary. They just go in there, and there's reminders on them. I, I, I put, if I need an anniversary, that will go in the diary. If you get ideas that you need to, you wanna do something, but while you've got an important task, just write it down. Just write it down and finish the task, and if there are those things like parking tickets, tax returns, just do them. I know there's no e- there's no clever, sexy way of getting around it. You just need to do it.

Alex Partridge 1:13:02 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:02 Just have a mindset that there are certain things that can't be delayed. Deal with them immediately, and you'll, you, you, you will get through it, and you'll learn, you'll start learning to be able to do that.

Alex Partridge 1:13:11 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:12 You know, there's only a few things you have to do neurotypically. Probably paying parking tickets, annoying, is a very neurotypical thing you have to do properly. [laughs] So...

Alex Partridge 1:13:19 Yeah. I also think, like, also not being ashamed to, to do things that might fall outside of what society deems to be normal.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:29 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:13:29 For example, I always used to think that being an adult, an organized adult, meant that I used to use, I had to use my calendar in my mobile phone, but I'm awful 'cause I forget to look at my calendar in my phone.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:40 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:13:40 So I forget meetings, my phone goes off, "Alex, where are you?" Oh, I've missed another appointment.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:44 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:13:44 But actually, now I use a big, colorful-

Dr. Alex George 1:13:46 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:13:47 ... whiteboard on my desk that has loads of color-coded magnets.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:49 Brilliant.

Alex Partridge 1:13:50 And two years ago, I probably would've been ashamed-

Dr. Alex George 1:13:52 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:13:52 ... to let anyone see that, because it looks quite childish.

Dr. Alex George 1:13:55 Mm, mm, mm.

Alex Partridge 1:13:55 And it, it kind of contradicts, uh, the image that I wanted to give out. But actually now, if it works for me, then it, then it works.

Dr. Alex George 1:14:04 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:14:04 That's what I need in order for my life to function, that big colorful-

Dr. Alex George 1:14:07 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:14:07 ... whiteboard with-

Dr. Alex George 1:14:08 Well, it's what you said earlier on, isn't it? It's the whole point that we need to focus more on output than process.

Alex Partridge 1:14:12 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:14:12 Focus on the output. Doesn't really matter, does it, you know? Like, however you get something done, if you get it done, that's great. Like that's... I mean, I use, um, I've got the calendars on... So it buzzes my watch now.

Alex Partridge 1:14:23 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:14:23 So I'll know from the watch that it's on there, or there's reminders there, or very fortunately, I have a team [laughs] that kind of can, uh, can help make sure I'm in places on time. So fair enough, I've a slight advantage there I guess. But it, it... L- using little tricks and stuff-

Alex Partridge 1:14:36 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:14:36 ... like that, they, they do, they do help. Try and use technology in your favor. We often bash technology a lot, and we should. Uh, but there's a lot of technology things that can be really helpful. Reminders and things like that are definitely things that you can use.

Alex Partridge 1:14:48 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:14:48 Alarms for stuff. Just stick an alarm, write it down, use your notes functions, and a lot of that can help. And then use the, you know, old school stickers on the wall, like notes and stuff like that. Write it down. Bam.

Alex Partridge 1:14:57 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:14:57 On it goes.

Alex Partridge 1:14:58 What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Dr. Alex George 1:15:01 God, how long you... I don't know. What is the most-

Alex Partridge 1:15:04 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 1:15:04 ... like impulsive? I... Impossible to say. Um, I don't know. I, I don't know. I've done so many. I, so it's hard to... It's actually quite hard to tease apart impulsivity and just drive. Sometimes very hard.

Alex Partridge 1:15:23 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:15:23 I'm a very driven person, and I think impulse, you need to have intuition attached to drive to really be, I think, successful, and it's very hard to separate that from impulsivity. Um, was going on Love Island impulsive? I don't know. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't. I don't know if that really was. Maybe. Um, I think I have a real, like, go-for-it attitude. I generally... I have... My biggest fear in life is to regret not having lived. I think people are very, very worried about things and, and different things in life. My big worry is, is not having lived. Like being that 80-year-old looking back thinking, "Damn it," you know? 'Cause ultimately, as cheesy as it sounds, you get one life. We're all doing life, you know, the first time. I wanna leave thinking I've lived many lives, and I think I have. You know, I have lived a lot of different lives already. You know, I'm 32, 33, and I feel something I'm proud of is that I've explored a lot of different kind of ways of living, things do- to do, and I'm not afraid to try things, and I've been really bad at stuff.

Alex Partridge 1:16:18 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:16:18 I've tried things that haven't, really haven't worked. I fail all the time. I still do. Quite literally, I failed an essay on my master's. [laughs] I had to resit it. But I'm not afraid really of those failures, and, and I think that drives me to try lots of different stuff. Um, but you know, honestly, like when I passed my motorbike test, I tried to buy like four bikes, and I was like, really don't have the finances to be buying four bikes. But, like, that's a classic kind of thing that I would-

Alex Partridge 1:16:41 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:16:41 ... try and do. Um, trying to think, Abs, what other things do you think I've been impulsive? Do you... Out of interest actually. Can you think? What's my... What would you say my most impulsive thing is? Ab is my assistant.

Alex Partridge 1:16:50 I think it'd be a lot to do with spend- like, yeah, spending.

Dr. Alex George 1:16:52 Spending.

Alex Partridge 1:16:53 Like buying things.

Dr. Alex George 1:16:53 Oh, shops is a nightmare actually. So we'll walk past, like, Lululemon. I'll go in, and I'll do a lot of damage, and then I'll take some stuff back, 'cause Ab will send me back.

Alex Partridge 1:17:02 [laughs]

Dr. Alex George 1:17:03 She'll be like... Ab is my assistant, and she'll be like, "Go back there and take that back." I'm like, "Okay, I'll go back." I think that is spending, and it is a huge thing though because... And you know, it's... We joke about it, but it is a real worry with finances that you can get yourself... And at university it was a nightmare.

Alex Partridge 1:17:17 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:17:17 'Cause I was on a, you know, I was on a, like everyone else, student loan, all that kind of stuff. You're living off not very much, and yeah, when you're impulsive and you go and buy a hoodie that you didn't need, and you spent a load of money on it, that could be your food for the week. So it was a real, you know, that was a real stress I think. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:17:34 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:17:34 I think probably finances, I guess, just impulsivity with that. But I'm, I am better at that now, I think. Am I, Abs? Am I better or not? You make me better at it. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:17:42 It's such a common, uh- It's so relatable, and I think everyone listening will relate to the impulsivity, especially the spending.

Dr. Alex George 1:17:49 Admittedly, not having someone that's, that's your system trying to say and tell you not to spend money, that's not relatable. But, um, yeah, I think, I think it's realizing what your impulsivities are.

Alex Partridge 1:18:00 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:18:00 I think allow yourself some freedoms. I think being, uh, impa- like spontaneous is good. I think impulsivity usually implies a negative consequence, I think, and I think that's when you gotta attach it to how much of it is actually just going for things you're driven, and how many things are actually causing you negative results or like-

Alex Partridge 1:18:15 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:18:15 ... like that impulsivity is causing you a problem, and I think that's what you've gotta tease apart. It's not a problem to go for stuff in life and try new things and be adventurous, but I think if you're doing things and you're putting yourself at risk, whatever that might be-

Alex Partridge 1:18:27 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:18:27 ... you know, that is, that is, that is an example. Like dan- you know, risk-taking behavior, I guess, is where, you know, that's not a good thing.

Alex Partridge 1:18:34 Well, I think that's why you see people with ADHD being su- successful in business, a lot of them. I think ADHD... Well, ADHD people are 400% more likely to be an entrepreneur, and it is because of that impulsivity. It's that risk-taking.

Dr. Alex George 1:18:45 Yeah. Well, I mean, I left medicine to do everything. I guess, there you go. I mean, I don't know if it's impulsive, but I kind of left medicine to go and take a tangent. I've, I've kind of returned... I returned very quickly to medicine, but... And I'm now, you know, a public health doctor effectively.

Alex Partridge 1:18:57 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:18:57 And that's what I do, right? I... You know, even the Stomp Cast, you know, we get people walking four to five kilometers a week listening to the Stomp Cast.

Alex Partridge 1:19:04 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:19:04 That improves their heart, their minds. You know, w- we think about how many episodes we've done. We've got a lot of people doing very healthy things.

Alex Partridge 1:19:11 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:19:12 Um, so I practice public health. That's what I do. Um, but I took a very wide turn out of it. I'm not even just talking about, like, Love Island. I just mean, like, you know, I've... This... It is quite an unusual path that I've taken, and I guess some would say it was risky. Some would say-

Alex Partridge 1:19:25 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:19:25 ... it was foolish. Some would say it was even stupid. But, um, yeah, I think perhaps I don't think I'd do that if it wasn't for ADHD.

Alex Partridge 1:19:32 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:19:32 Would I have taken the turn that I took? Probably not.

Alex Partridge 1:19:37 Just finally, Alex, if you could go back in time and give younger version of you, the, the little kid who felt different-

Dr. Alex George 1:19:43 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:19:43 ... some advice with the knowledge of ADHD you have now, what would you tell younger version of yourself?

Dr. Alex George 1:19:49 Yeah. I think probably that, uh, spending even a day pretending or trying to be someone that you're not is a day of your life wasted. That actually just own who you are. Uh, and actually, that your... what you perceive now to be your greatest weakness will almost invariably be your biggest strength in years to come. I hated being sensitive. I think my sensitivity has been a huge part of who I am. Like, it's a huge part of my innate drive to try and make a difference in mental health is because I care. So I think that's a good thing. And I also, funny enough, used to hate being tall. I love being tall now. It's great. I love being tall. Used to hate it. So own those things that, that you... that make you different. Own your differences. And I think as soon as you start being proud of who you are and you start harnessing your strengths, you understand some of your limitations, but you're kind to yourself for those, you live a lot more. And at the end of the day, we've got one life. You are who you are. Whatever package you've been given in your life and your skills and all that kind of stuff, you know, that's where your starting point, but it doesn't define where you're gonna end up. You know, just go for things, try, and enjoy it as well. Life is so short. You know, that, that idea that is so, you know, commonly said, but the journey, not the destination, is probably one of the best bits of advice, even though it's the most cliched and overused perhaps. It's so true. You know, it's not, it's not graduating from med school that is the, is the beauty or the goal or whatever. It's actually the process of, of that experience that you've had. You know, doing the podcast, it's like, okay, cool, we get a million downloads, 10 million downloads, top 20 podcasts, whatever. That's not the bit that the joy is really derived from. It's these moments of talking and-

Alex Partridge 1:21:24 Mm

Dr. Alex George 1:21:24 ... and sharing and the, the process and, you know, the behind-the-scenes, we're chatting with the team before we started. You know, that's the joy in it, isn't it?

Alex Partridge 1:21:30 Mm.

Dr. Alex George 1:21:30 So just enjoy the process, worry a little less. It's a long-winded answer, but that's what I'd say.

Alex Partridge 1:21:35 No, it was powerful. Dr Alex George, thank you very much.

Dr. Alex George 1:21:39 Thank you for having me. [outro music]