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How To Ask For ADHD Accommodations At Work - Jodie Hill

Jodie Hill is a neurodivergent solicitor, ED&I consultant, coach and trainer, author, and campaigner. She's passionate about people, creating psychologically safe workplaces, and enabling everyone to be their best and truest selves.

Alex PartridgehostJodie Hillguest
Oct 23, 202346mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 3:00

    Intro and Jodie's diagnosis story

    1. AP

      If you've got ADHD and you want to know how to approach your employer to speak about reasonable adjustments and how to address the ADHD medication shortage with them, these are the questions I ask ADHD employment lawyer Jodie Hill in today's episode. [upbeat music] Watching the numbers go up really helps me avoid burnout and keeps me motivated to make amazing content for you all, so if you're on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button, hit the like button, and if you're listening to this on a podcast app, please hit the follow button. Thank you so much and enjoy the episode. Jodie, thanks for joining us.

    2. JH

      Thank you for having me.

    3. AP

      Just to set the scene, um, when were you diagnosed, and what happened that made you want to seek assessment?

    4. JH

      So it was after the first lockdown. Actually, no, during the first lockdown, I think, the August 2020.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      So what happened was in the lockdowns we had to stop all of our extracurricular, so stop moving around, traveling around, couldn't really be outside, and what I realized was my body just didn't want to do that and my mind was still going literally a million miles an hour.

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. JH

      And thinking, "Oh my God, what's going on?"

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      I thought... I actually thought at, at times I was losing my mind because my brain just felt like it was going really fast. And obviously my body was having to slow down-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JH

      ... because that was the world that we lived in. Um, and at the time I wasn't struggling with anxiety, which is what I'd been treated for before, so I had anxiety, insomnia, and PTSD, and off the back of that I'd had quite a lot of treatment and therapy, and so I suppose I've got quite a good awareness of whether I'm managing that well. And actually, despite the pandemic, I was actually managing that really well, so I was like, "Well, it's not that, so what is it?"

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      Um, so I just took the view that actually I needed to speak to someone because I was getting in, in my head a little bit too much. And so I went through a private diagnosis because I couldn't get an appointment for, my God, it's how long, like two years or something. And I was really fortunate I was able to get one on Zoom, 'cause um-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JH

      ... they weren't doing them on Zoom before. Um, and that, yeah, so went through that process, and I was co- uh, diagnosed with combined, so in- inattentive and hyperactive.

    17. AP

      When, when you got that diagnosis, how did, how did you feel?

    18. JH

      Um, I suppose I wasn't wholly surprised. Um, I certainly have had people s- say to me, "I think you've got ADHD" before.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. JH

      Especially people who are... um, who have already been diagnosed or who treat in that area. But equally I felt, I felt quite relieved, because I... for me, it was worrying about, well, what is it?

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. JH

      Um, and I suppose... I mean, I... 'cause I- I've got some friends who've really struggled with the process and also the actual diagnosis, and for me, actually, I found it was quite a relief, uh, because I kind of knew who I was.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. JH

      So it was quite a positive experience for me. And the medication process that led from that was also quite positive in the sense of I found one straightaway that worked and I, I had the support, albeit it was terribly expensive because I had to do it through, [laughs] through the private process.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. JH

      But I felt as though the process for me was actually really positive.

  2. 3:00 – 5:18

    Did medication help?

    1. AP

      So the medication for you, did that really help alleviate the anxiety and the other negative traits?

    2. JH

      So I, uh, uh, to... So how I, how I started with the meds is I started on like a 20 milligram and then gradually moved it up, and I remember going to my psychiatrist and going, "Am I supposed to feel anything? What am I supposed to feel?"

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. JH

      'Cause you had to write a diary.

    5. AP

      Right.

    6. JH

      And I'm thinking, you know, when you've had anxiety medication, you feel different. You do feel different. And, and the only way I could describe it when I had anxiety medication was I did feel a bit emotionally numb at times, and I suppose that was my main concern. Like, I didn't wanna go back on medication that would make me feel like that. Um, so yeah, I think building that up over time allowed me to kind of see the impact.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      Um, and that's why you have to do it in that way so it's safe with a, with a psychiatrist. But it did, it did alleviate symptoms, and then some days it doesn't alleviate any. So, you know, most of the time it does alleviate them, but I'd say probably like 60 to 70% of the symptoms are alleviated, but it's not like a, you can't just draw a line and go, "Okay, so today I'm just not gonna forget stuff."

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      Like, there i- it's a little bit more, it's a bit more nuanced than that, but you do notice a difference. And at the last two days I haven't had my medication, and I did notice a big difference in my energy levels. Was really exhausted.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. JH

      And just my ability to make decisions was a little bit slower and things like that as well. So yeah, it's definit- it's definitely helped me. Um, and I, I, I can't imagine not having it now, actually.

    13. AP

      Mm. Have you been affected by the, the recent shortage?

    14. JH

      Yeah. So I'm on 70 milligrams, which is sort of the highest dosage, and so it ki- I suppose makes it harder to get it as well 'cause it's not like you can get necessarily the lowest dosage and just carry on with that.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. JH

      But yeah, there have been real struggles. Fortunately, I've managed to find a lower dosage today, actually, today, [laughs] uh, which has been, which has really relieved me. But I, I was actually really overwhelmed at the weekend-

    17. AP

      Right

    18. JH

      ... of the prospect of, like, not actually having the medication and not knowing when we'd get it again. And I suppose part of the reason for that was it took so long to get to that point. Like, it took several months to-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. JH

      ... to, to build it up. So if you can't get an appointment with a psychiatrist, how do you do that? It was k- it was, I suppose, the unknown, and kinda going-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. JH

      ... "Well, well, what does this mean?" You know, I'm now in a, in a place where I can actually be myself and, and function at a quite a high level, so the thought of kind of going back to how it was before is quite scary.

  3. 5:18 – 6:03

    ADHD in your early years

    1. AP

      Mm. When you look back into your earlier years with the knowledge around ADHD that you have now, can you see ADHD showing up when you were a child?

    2. JH

      I can, but I think I masked a lot when I was younger. So until the diagnosis, I don't really think I was, um, really being myself, I'd say.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JH

      Definitely af- I had a breakdown a couple of years ago, a mental breakdown, and, and that actually in hindsight is probably linked to the burnout from ADHD, but I wasn't diagnosed then, so it was treated as anxiety and PTSD. And off the back of that, I've really... I suppose I've kind of grown and, and, and understood, like, where I'm going and what, like, what's happening-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. JH

      ... with, with the various conditions. But it is... Yeah, it's, it is, it's just, it's, it's, it's challenging to kind of balance those things.

  4. 6:03 – 9:12

    Experiencing a mental breakdown

    1. AP

      When you have a ... I've never had one, so I can't ... What does, what does a mental, if you're happy to share-

    2. JH

      Yeah, of course

    3. AP

      ... what does a mental breakdown look like?

    4. JH

      So for me, I was diagnosed with the, the mental health conditions that I mentioned before, the anxiety and the, the PTSD. And what happened was I was in an environment that wasn't a supportive environment.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      I also had a number of different life issues. So the, the symptoms were exacerbated. So despite being on high levels of medication and in therapy, I just wasn't able to cope anymore. And what I found was actually I didn't want to ... I stopped wanting to socialize, I didn't wanna go out.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      Didn't want to be around people. I stopped doing things that helped me, like my self-care, my exercise, and I really became a social recluse. I'm quite an outgoing person, so I didn't notice any of these behaviors.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      And what then happened was I ended up leaving my job as a solicitor, which I'd worked my whole life to become. I was like, "I really wanna be a lawyer," and then I get there, and then have a breakdown. And the breakdown really manifested in, in a number of different ways. One of them was lots of panic attacks, um, so physically being unable to move at times.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. JH

      Um, unable to sleep, and also just massive catastrophizing, overthinking, to the point that, like, decisions that w- were really easy for me before were just completely impossible. Um, so that was, that was really, really tough, and that was about five years ago, five, six years ago. And if, I suppose with the knowledge that I have now, probably ADHD's contributed to that because it does make me a bit of a workaholic, I'm not gonna lie.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      [laughs] And a bit of a perfectionist.

    15. AP

      I mean, I completely relate to that last bit, workaholic, and I, I don't ... Do you think you're driven by an insecurity, or do you think you're pushed by motivation?

    16. JH

      I think it's a bit of both. Definitely before it was insecurity. I think now I've found my passion and my-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. JH

      ... my purpose, it's more around sharing that knowledge and helping people. But I think when I first started out as a lawyer, I definitely think it would've been around insecurity.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. JH

      And, like, not knowing who I was and, like, trying to prove myself. Um, 'cause I kind of felt, when I was younger, that I actually was always failing at stuff, even though I wasn't.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. JH

      Um, like, looking back now, definitely wasn't, but at the time it felt like that. And particularly, I remember a time when, um, I got all As at GCSE and A stars, and then I was on track for three As, so I applied for all A universities. I'm gonna be a barrister, look at me, ra, ra, ra, you know. And then I got two Bs and a C.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. JH

      And my world just ended, and I was like, "Well, what do I do now?" 'Cause I didn't have a plan B. I'm not really a plan B person. Um, and I just didn't have a plan B-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. JH

      ... and that, that was really difficult to deal with because that rejection that I felt really hit hard.

    27. AP

      Mm. Such a common pain point within the community, that, uh, sensitivity to rejection-

    28. JH

      Mm

    29. AP

      ... and, and one's reaction to it. Is that something you're more aware of now?

    30. JH

      Definitely, and it's something that actually, until about a year ago, I wasn't really aware that it was linked to ADHD. I thought it was more me just overthinking stuff with the anxiety.

  5. 9:12 – 11:00

    How do you deal with overwhelm?

    1. JH

      it's a huge challenge.

    2. AP

      How do you deal with overwhelm?

    3. JH

      Oh. Um, I'd like to say that I'm really good at dealing with it, but I'm gonna be really honest and I'm not. Um, I think, I'll give an example. On Friday I just felt so overwhelmed. I was at an event, and I was sat there, and lots of people coming up to me, they're like, "Oh, Jodie, you don't know me, but..."

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. JH

      And that kind of, my social battery was so low at this point, and I felt really exhausted, but I was at an event where I was with some of my staff and some clients. I'm thinking, "I'll just get through this." And honestly, I felt so overwhelmed I just got, I got in a taxi, I left early, and I just cried the whole way home-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. JH

      ... because I was just, I just felt like I hadn't, didn't have any energy. I didn't have anything to give.

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. JH

      You get to that point where you're like-

    10. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    11. JH

      ... I've got nothing to give.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. JH

      I feel like I've given everything this week. And I think that's the challenge when you are ADHD, because you wanna give everything. You do, like gen- like, you work really hard. Generally, you find that people with ADHD are really hard workers.

    14. AP

      Mm.

    15. JH

      And sometimes overcompensate, and that leads to overwhelm. So in answer to your question, not always very good at it, but what I have been doing is I created a journal last year for myself to, to help me reflect, because I'm not a natural reflector, on how I'm feeling.

    16. AP

      Mm.

    17. JH

      So physically, emotionally, and also helping me practice gratitude so that I don't feel so overwhelmed when I have a few things come in really quickly that might make me feel overwhelmed, whereas actually, if I'm reflecting more often, I'll find that I'll focus on something positive.

    18. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JH

      So it's less overwhelming, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, actually, that, those, those things there were all really good."

    20. AP

      It's such good advice, and I think overwhelm is, is such a big issue with many people with ADHD, especially in the workplace. And y- like you've alluded to, it can often be because you've ... And perhaps because we're inherent people-pleasers, we say yes to too much.

    21. JH

      Yeah.

    22. AP

      Then suddenly we've got too much to do. We try and do too much, and we burn out.

    23. JH

      Yeah.

    24. AP

      With

  6. 11:00 – 13:15

    How To Ask For ADHD Accommodations At Work

    1. AP

      ADHD in the workplace, and if someone has ADHD and they want to ask their employer about making some reasonable changes, adjustments-

    2. JH

      Mm. Yeah

    3. AP

      ... what's the best way to go about that?

    4. JH

      So the first thing is to know that you don't need to have a diagnosis to get support at work.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      So I think that's really important to know. A lot of people think that you have to go to, to get the diagnosis and then you get the support. In the workplace, there isn't a legal requirement for that. You just have to show that you have a mental impairment and that it substantially impacts your ability to do your job or, or your day-to-day activity. So it doesn't have to just be your role. If you can illustrate it's impacting your sleep, it's impacting your ability to be on time, you know, think about the ways in which the challenges manifest, and then explain things that the employer could do to alleviate that, and that's what would be discussed as, like, the reasonable adjustments. So an example might be, can I have more flexibility in terms of my start and finish times because of time blindness, for example.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      Um, or it might be that you actually find working from home is better because there's less distractions, less noise for certain tasks. So thinking about adjustments that might be Used on an ad hoc basis. It doesn't have to be a permanent change to a fixed hour. It could be things that you need, you know, just on the day thinking, "Well, actually, my, my symptoms are worse today-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JH

      ... so I just need a bit more flexibility." So for me, s- I've always say to people, "Don't wait for a diagnosis and, and, you know, don't be shy about asking for the help." A lot of the time employers will want to help, but they don't really know what to do, so go with suggestions. Um, and, and just ask, ask what, what they, what the, you know, what are they able to do to support you. Um, the other thing that you can do is contact DWP and get, um, adjustments via DWP, which is a free process where you can get physical adjustments. So for example, I got, um, some ADHD coaching, and I got some training on how to use iOS products to help me-

    11. AP

      Okay

    12. JH

      ... manage my ADHD. And I was like, "Oh, that's a great idea."

    13. AP

      Yeah.

    14. JH

      "I would never have thought that."

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. JH

      So it's like using the stuff that you've already got rather than getting new stuff, and then things like noise-canceling headphones and stuff like that. So yeah, I think i- i- it's really important to ask the question and to work with your employer. So, you know, neither of you are necessarily gonna know all the answers, but definitely ask the question and start the conversation.

  7. 13:15 – 14:03

    ADHD accommodations for the recruitment phase

    1. AP

      Can the adjustments start really early on at, even at the recruitment stage?

    2. JH

      Yes. Yeah, so employers aren't allowed to ask you, "Do you have a disability?" But they can ask you, "Do you need any adjustments for your interview?"

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JH

      So it might be the lighting. It might be the, the, the temperature, or you might want the questions in advance so that you can prepare. Um, so yeah, again, if you feel comfortable doing that, then I would definitely request that because actually, think about it this way. If your employer or prospective employer is not gonna give you an interview, do we really wanna work for them?

    5. AP

      [laughs] No. No, yeah, yeah.

    6. JH

      Do you know what I mean?

    7. AP

      Yeah.

    8. JH

      Like, if they're not gonna be accommodating at that stage-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JH

      ... why wait to then get the job and then ask?

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. JH

      Because, you know, is that the right culture for you? Probably not.

    13. AP

      They've already given the signal that they might not be-

    14. JH

      Yeah

    15. AP

      ... accommodating later down the line.

    16. JH

      Yeah, yeah, and then you're already

  8. 14:03 – 15:03

    Example of what's unreasonable to ask for

    1. JH

      in it.

    2. AP

      Yeah. Is there, um, an example of what might be unreasonable?

    3. JH

      So reasonableness is the area where lawyers litigate basically. [laughs]

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. JH

      So this is our area. Um, yes, there are lots of things that can be unreasonable and w- how, how the tribunal look at reasonableness, so if it was to go all the way there because you say, for example, employee says, "Well, they failed to make an adjustment, so now I'm bringing a claim," what the tribunal look at is the impact on the individual, whether the adjustment was something that would've alleviated the disadvantage-

    6. AP

      Mm, right

    7. JH

      ... or at least, at least a little bit.

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. JH

      Um, and then they also look at, like, other things like the impact on the business, the cost, but cost can't be the only thing. Um, so yeah, if, if you want to hire your own personal assistant, um, full-time, that's probably gonna not be reasonable, but there might be things that you can do where you might be able to give some of your role to other people that... or you might body double with people or-

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. JH

      ... you know, there might be things that you can do to adjust your role rather than getting a full-time person that just does it for you or with you, for example.

  9. 15:03 – 19:31

    What to do if your employer says 'no'

    1. AP

      I suppose the obvious next question is if they speak to their employer, and what happens if they refuse? What happens if they say no?

    2. JH

      So if they refuse, I'd always recommend raise a grievance so you have a paper trail then 'cause usually these conversations are just like a chat with your manager.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JH

      If, if you don't get the adjustments that you want, take advice and raise the grievance because the grievance then sets out, "This is what I asked for. This is when I asked for it, and this is what, um, you said when you refused it."

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      What that does is adds a layer of protection to an individual. So if they then suffer what's called a detriment, so it might be, you know, you're not invited to the team drinks, or you don't get that promotion, then you have an extra layer of protection from discrimination there. So it's called victimization. So there's these two types of claims. You've got reasonable adjustments and then victimization. So the, the, the raising of the grievance is a protected act, so anything that happens after that could potentially be protected, which is something that people don't always know about.

    7. AP

      Do people have to ensure that they're collecting evidence, proof, if the worst does happen and they feel like they've been dismissed because of-

    8. JH

      Mm

    9. AP

      ... their disclosure-

    10. JH

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... then suddenly a month later they've been managed out-

    12. JH

      Managed out

    13. AP

      ... but actually they think that it's because of... Is that a tricky situation to prove, that it's because of, that, the dis- the disclosure, disclosure?

    14. JH

      Potentially. So what I always say is keep a diary. So whenever you're-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JH

      ... um, having these conversations, keep a diary 'cause it is so easy to forget the details and the dates and what people said.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. JH

      It can also be used as contemporaneous evidence, so that actually could be evidence in and of itself. Um, often it's e- often if there is a conversation, it's in employment context, it's usually one word against another. So tribunals are used to that, and they just go on who they believe, uh, based on the, on the evidence before them. So if there's no written evidence-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. JH

      ... they'll decide whose testimony is, is the most reliable, which is quite stressful. [laughs]

    21. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    22. JH

      As a lawyer as well, it's quite stressful. [laughs]

    23. AP

      [laughs]

    24. JH

      It's like 50/50. But if, that's why it's helpful if you have got a grievance, that's evidence. If you have got a doctor's note or you do have a diagnosis that makes suggestions of adjustments, or you could go see occupational health-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. JH

      ... and they might support you in terms of what adjustments might be helpful. So having some form of paper trail is super important if you want to challenge it.

    27. AP

      And if you raise a grievance and then it still doesn't get addressed, is that, what's the escalation after that?

    28. JH

      So if you raise a grievance and it's not addressed, then you either decide, "Is this for me? Like, is it, is it bad enough that I can't do my job? Do I need to leave?"

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. JH

      And I wouldn't suggest anyone resigns, by the way, uh, without taking advice because it is, it's a serious decision to make.

  10. 19:31 – 21:04

    The ADHD medication shortage

    1. AP

      Many people are struggling with the shortage of ADHD medication at the moment. Is that something that people should be raising with their employers?

    2. JH

      Yeah, it's a really good point, actually, because employers will probably notice that, one, I mean, I certainly was feeling more anxious about it, just not knowing when will I get my medication. If I do get it, will it be the right dosage?

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JH

      So that impacted my mental health negatively, and it also affected my concentration, because I'm thinking, "Well, when am I gonna get my medication, and do, do I need to spend some time on the phone now ringing around every single pharmacy in the North of England?"

    5. AP

      Yeah [laughs] .

    6. JH

      Um, well, how do I buy it?

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. JH

      I'm asking people, you know, to help, to help out.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      So, so there's that side of it, but there's also the fact that if people aren't taking the medication, whether they're self-rationing or whether they just run out, it's likely that their symptoms are gonna be at, in full, full flow-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JH

      ... plus the impact of any mental health conditions. So, uh, from an employer's perspective, I would highly recommend if you know anyone who is taking medication, or even if you're not sure, put a notice out to people to say, "Look, we know about the shortages. If you need extra support or you need to talk to somebody, come to us." Because I think part of it as well, a lot of people don't talk about their medication.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      People don't know they're on it, because they're ashamed of it or there's stigma attached, and actually, that can be a challenge in and of itself, because they can't talk to someone about the medication point-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JH

      ... because people don't know they're on it. So if you approach it from a respective, "If anyone needs more support or adjustments, come to us," then you're not then forcing people to disclose the, the medication as well.

    17. AP

      Yeah, you raised a really good point there about not perhaps wanting to raise the issue because of the shame-

    18. JH

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... and I suppose that

  11. 21:04 – 22:44

    Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria at Work + stigma

    1. AP

      also alludes to the impact of rejection sensitive dysphoria in the office, and how perhaps people might not want to speak out because they're so s- terrified of, uh, criticism-

    2. JH

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... or rejection in response. I mean-

    4. JH

      Mm

    5. AP

      ... is there any tangible advice for anyone in, in that situation?

    6. JH

      Well, I suppose going back to the point about the interviews, like working for a company that, like, shares your values and the culture is a positive one-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. JH

      ... uh, that's why I set my own law firm up, because I was very much of the mindset that I didn't wanna go and work for someone else who didn't really care about mental health or neurodiversity. So for me, that... Uh, I'm not saying everyone go set up your own company, obviously.

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. JH

      But, but the reality is, um, it's finding your tribe and finding a, you know, a workplace-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JH

      ... that, where you feel like you can have those conversations.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      Because there are still places where people don't feel it's com- you know, comfortable. And it's interesting, I was at a conference last week and one of my staff was talking, saying, you know, or she was sharing her story, and she was being really open, and people were like, "Oh, that's really uncommon." And she's like, "Oh, it's really not." But because she's worked for me for four years, she's in this bubble of like, "That's just how we are." And actually, in the big world, out- outside of our bubble, it is definitely dif- difficult for people to talk about it-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JH

      ... especially when medication's involved, I think, um, because there's still a stigma attached to, "Well, what... You know, are you gonna take it forever? What does it do to you?"

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. JH

      Like, not understanding even that... I mean, when I first took medication, didn't even understand why do I need a stimulant? I was like, "I'm hyperactive. I don't need a stimulant."

    19. AP

      [laughs]

    20. JH

      And when they explained the, the, the science behind it, I was like, "That makes so much sense."

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. JH

      And now I get it. So I think educating people, and more people sharing their stories about whether it's a diagnosis or using medication or their symptoms or their adjustments, that helps in workplaces. So if leaders can do that-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. JH

      ... it's a really great way to role

  12. 22:44 – 23:55

    What to do if you're bullied at work

    1. JH

      model.

    2. AP

      If someone is brave and shares their diagnosis at work, and then they feel like they're bullied-

    3. JH

      Mm-hmm

    4. AP

      ... as a result by whoever, is it a similar process? You raise a grievance and-

    5. JH

      Yeah

    6. AP

      ... so on?

    7. JH

      Yes, I'd raise it informally first. Um, but, or, I mean, there's no legal requirement to raise a grievance. This is more me trying to suggest best practice. You can just go straight and put a claim in-

    8. AP

      Mm

    9. JH

      ... if you wanted to. But often, if people are staying employed, they wanna try resolve it, and putting a claim in kinda gets people's backs up [laughs] if that's the, if that's the, the first thing that, the first time the employer ever hear about it. But yeah, a similar process. It could potentially be disability discrimination, because ADHD is likely to be a disability under the Equality Act-

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. JH

      ... because it is a mental impairment, and it does impact people substantially in the workplace. Everybody is defined under that definition on an individual basis, so I can't say ADHD always is. But most of the cases that I have dealt with where I'm advising on adjustments or discrimination in any, in any respect for, for, for ADHD, I've found that actually it's always met the definition in the cases that I've been running.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. JH

      So, you know, it, it, that means that you've got that protection in the most, in, in most cases.

  13. 23:55 – 25:48

    What can companies do to be neuro-inclusive.

    1. AP

      What else do you think companies can do to make it clear that their hands are wide open and that they really do genuinely support and want neurodiversity within their business?

    2. JH

      So I think, um, training of, for managers is really important around- How to have the conversations for reasonable adjustments. Like, if one of their staff was to speak to them, do they know what to say?

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JH

      Because often what we find is managers become managers because they're good at what they do. They're not always great with people, and that's often where things fall, and I'm really passionate about changing that. Um, at the moment I'm working with the government on some law changes, because actually looking at the, at the risk within an organization and going, "Okay, on an individual basis, what does this person need?" Rather than this kind of blanket approach-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. JH

      ... which you often see. And then on a more wider scale, like in the organization, who's being trained? Do they have the right skill set? Do they know about neuro-inclusive language? Are they, you know, making comments that actually could be seen as harassment because they're aimed at someone because of their ADHD symptoms?

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      So it's being mindful of what we say unintentionally, which could still be discrimination. There's a real misconception that you have to have intent to discriminate against someone, and you don't, you don't. It just has to meet the definition.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      And there are, are a number of different types of discrimination. We've only touched on, like, two or three of them today. So, you know, it's not that... You don't have to have intended to offend somebody, but you might do that by virtue of ignorance or lack of education.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. JH

      So employers should really invest in that, in that side. Look at their policies as well. Do you have policies that deal with reasonable adjustments? Do people know how to access them? Is it clear? Is that document accessible to people who are neurodivergent? Do they know, you know, how to access it, and, and, and is it in form that they can read? Um, so there's lots of different things that employers can be thinking about, but I think education and then building the foundations-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. JH

      ... um, through training and policies is really important.

  14. 25:48 – 32:51

    How to create boundaries at work

    1. AP

      Do you have any advice for employees that, who might want to put professional boundaries in place at work, but perhaps aren't feeling confident to do it?

    2. JH

      Mm. That's so... I always, um, struggle with that myself, people-pleasing.

    3. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. JH

      [laughs] So, yes. I think it is... I think it's important to think about, well, what, what are my absolute non-negotiables? This is what, how I do it. So I go, "What are my non-negotiables? What absolutely can I, can I not take on any more? You know, where's, where's that line?"

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      And, and not crossing that, and being really firm with that. And backing yourself, and not feeling bad, because we feel so bad when we don't do all the things that we wanna do or do all the things we're asked to do. But it's really important to push back on stuff, and do it in advance. You know, be proactive and, and talk to people about the things that actually are beyond your capacity or beyond those boundaries. Um, because actually if we don't do that, then how can we expect others to help us?

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      So I think it's on us to communicate that as well, not just on employers to, to know what those are. Um, and, and one of the things we do with our team is we always ask in our one-to-ones, "How is your wellbeing? What, um, what's, what's on your mind?" And we, like, that's the focus of the start of our one-to-ones, so there's an opportunity and there's a safe space every month to talk about that, whether it's mental health, physical health, neurodiversity, whatever it is. And, you know, a lot of employers don't create the space-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JH

      ... for that, so if it's an employer listening, that's something that you could look to do, is to create that space. Ask that extra question when you, when you see people.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. JH

      Or have that space in the appraisals or the one-to-ones so that you've got a dedicated time where it's actually recorded.

    13. AP

      It's so interesting. I always use the example of meetings, and always thinking, did w- did that meeting need to happen? Could that have been said in an email?

    14. JH

      Yeah.

    15. AP

      And if the meeting does happen and a decision needs to be made in the meeting, if it's not urgent, sort of allowing a grace period of, say, 24 hours for people to go away and then submit their ideas to the problem.

    16. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AP

      Because often, I don't know about you, but if I'm in a meeting, I can often get paralysis of thought-

    18. JH

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... through anxiety of being in a room with other people. So if I'm left to have time to, on my own in a safe space to think, I can often come up with an amazing idea.

    20. JH

      Mm.

    21. AP

      But if the loudest voice in the room in that meeting was chosen as the, as the answer to the problem, then... And I think that happens a lot. Um-

    22. JH

      Yeah, it does happen a lot. Do you know, there's a really interesting, um, book called Rebel Ideas. I don't know if you've read it. Um, I think it's Matthew Syed. It's really great, and he talks about, um, diversity of thought in the room.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. JH

      And one of the things that he suggests is having those meetings where you've got the, like, the loudest person always speaks first, or perhaps the leader always speaks first. I'm conscious that, you know, you have con- con- confirmation bias where people might just follow what I say 'cause I'm their boss. So the loudest people or the leaders speaking last-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. JH

      ... as well, and giving people information in advance and allowing them to submit suggestions in advance so that you accommodate all types of communication skills, which in turn will be more neuro-inclusive.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. JH

      So you're actually looking at cognitive diversity there, but actually by virtue of, of how you approach it, you're not going, "Oh, you're ADHD, so I'll do this." You're actually just saying to everybody, "We want you to communicate in the way that's best for all of you." So we do that through, um, a thing called our License to Thrive. So-

    29. AP

      [laughs]

    30. JH

      ... this is our, like, document. So when you onboard at Thrive, you get everybody's License to Thrive. So it says... Mine's very detailed because I have a lot of needs. [laughs]

  15. 32:51 – 34:45

    Neuro-inclusion in the courts

    1. AP

      It's so interesting you mentioned the courtroom, 'cause I had a big court case a few years ago. I was on the witness box, civil case, cross-examined for six days, and I had a panic attack on... And I had to say, "Excuse me, Judge, I need to..."

    2. JH

      Mm.

    3. AP

      I sweated it out in the bathroom, then we carried on. But just going off tangent for a second, is there anything that the criminal justice system in that, in that courtroom setting could do to be a bit more neuro-inclusive?

    4. JH

      Yeah, definitely. Um, one of the things that, um, obviously I'm not in the criminal setting, but, uh, I'm an employment lawyer, but one of the things generally you can look to do for people who are witnesses is the lawyers can be asking, "Are there any adjustments that you might need? Is there anything that, um, we can let the court know of before?" So we deal with a lot of people who are neurodivergent or who have mental health problems.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      And I ask that before they, they give evidence, and I will tell the judge in advance, "You know, this person's gonna need breaks at this time," or, you know, if, if I'm, if I notice that they're starting to feel overwhelmed, I'm gonna ask for a break.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      Um, or it might be that actually, you know, we split the evidence in a different way, or there, there are different ways that you can approach it, but ideally the solicitor should be t- having that conversation. And also it could be helpful if the courts, I don't know if it's different in different courts, but they do ask at the tribunal, "Do you, do you have any adjustments that you need?" I suppose the challenge is you might be thinking, "Well, I'm all right."

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      And then you have a panic attack and you're thinking, "Well, now I'm not all right."

    11. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    12. JH

      "So now what do I do?" Um, and it's, yeah, it's just how they deal with it.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      So some training I think for the court staff is really important on how to, to deal with that, whether it's mental health first aid or some other training on the more kind of the crisis side of it.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. JH

      Um, but it isn't, it's not easy giving evidence anyway, you know, so when you're, when you are already struggling with anxiety or ADHD or whatever it might be, it's even more challenging to absorb all that information-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. JH

      ... and everyone's looking at you, and you gotta get it right, and you can't make a mistake. It's a lot of pressure, and we're, we're the hardest on ourselves in the first place, so it's even harder when a judge or a barrister's grilling you.

    19. AP

      Yeah, yeah.

    20. JH

      So I'm not surprised, yeah.

    21. AP

      All the work, amazing work you're doing now, um, around ADHD,

  16. 34:45 – 36:38

    Is ADHD a trend

    1. AP

      you must get frustrated when you see people say ADHD is just a trend.

    2. JH

      Well, yeah, 'cause it's so cool to be ADHD.

    3. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. JH

      Like, [laughs] um, yeah, no, I do get really frustrated, and I think the, the challenge is because there is more awareness, there are more people going, "Oh, well, you know, everyone just thinks they are." And I al- and I also really don't like when people go, "Oh, I've got a bit of ADHD," like, you know, "I've got a bit of OCD, I've got a bit of..." Like, it really irritates me. As you can tell, I'm quite, I'm being quite vocal now. But it really irritates me, and the reason why is because it, it doesn't... You might associate yourself with one or two symptoms. "Well, you know, sometimes I feel sad. I'm not depressed."

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      You know, so just because you lose your keys once in a while doesn't mean you have ADHD. And I think the, the, the challenge is the lack of awareness on the actual impact of the condition, because so many people dress it up as a superpower. And don't get me wrong, there are some benefits. When you're in a good hyper-focused state, hyper-focusing on the right thing, not sorting out a sock drawer. [laughs]

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. JH

      But, but actually you don't, I don't think it is always, you know, that amazing to have ADHD, because there are some really dark times when you have ADHD which isn't always spoken about. So-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JH

      ... yeah, when, when, yeah, the, obviously I think it's helpful, I do think it's helpful that there's more awareness, and I don't want the awareness to drop, but I think there needs to be the same amount of education that goes with that-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JH

      ... to help people understand that, yes, there are these positives, and there's all these memes that say all these fantastic things that you've got, but equally we don't want to invalidate the difficulties that people have. Because often you find as well, I don't know anyone that's got ADHD that hasn't also got a mental health problem, for example. So you're balancing two conditions at least

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. JH

      ... and that's really, that's really difficult, and I don't like that that can be invalidated by comments that are made quite flippantly.

    15. AP

      Mm. I mean, you hit the nail on the head 'cause there's so many comorbidities with ADHD, noticeably anxiety.

    16. JH

      Mm.

    17. AP

      And just going

  17. 36:38 – 40:17

    Recognising anxiety in the workplace

    1. AP

      back to ADHD in the workplace for a thing, do you think there's a benefit for managers to also be trained on actually just recognizing what anxiety looks like?

    2. JH

      Definitely. I'm a huge advocate, so when I set my firm up five years ago, the reason I set it up is, as I said, I had a breakdown, and what I wanted to do was create a psycholog- psychologically safe place-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JH

      ... for me to work, and what that meant was educating people around me, so the people that come into my team are all trained on mental health first aid. They're all trained on how to have conversations and spot it in each other-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. JH

      ... and have these open conversations, and I think more businesses would benefit from that if they took the time to think about, well, actually, you know, if, if we could spot the signs in each other, imagine, where you don- it doesn't escalate all the way to now you're being disciplined, now you're, um, you know, being performance managed.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JH

      It's actually we're gonna nip this in the bud. We've- I've spotted some signs. An example I've got at the moment, I'm coaching one of my staff, and she's, um, spoken openly about her anxiety and was featured in the ACAS guidance on the adjustments that we made for her. But what was really interesting hearing her speak was the fact that because I spoke about my anxiety, she felt she could come to her interview and tell me on the way she had a panic attack in the interview.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JH

      She's like, "I would never have been able to do that before." So I do think it starts with the, with the top, and one of the things that I'm doing at the moment is becoming a coach, and not because I'm gonna be everybody's coach, because I wanna be able to coach my team through their difficult times, so they have access to therapy and counseling and all of that. But this is more about on the job when their, when I spot their behaviors are changing, and like that, I can see that that's anxiety-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JH

      ... because I know this person really well, and it's building those relationships and building that knowledge, and I think as leaders, like, we have an obligation to do that because we are the people who can affect real change in the workplaces.

    13. AP

      Mm. Yeah, absolutely. I think of, like, the amount of lost hours of productivity and unhappiness that must be a result of ADHD or other neurodivergent manifesting into anxiety.

    14. JH

      Mm.

    15. AP

      I think, you know, if someone's saying yes to everything, that might be a sign of anxiety.

    16. JH

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      If someone's more fidgety than normal, that might be a sign of anxiety.

    18. JH

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      Do you think there's any other signs that might be a p- a, a clear indicator that someone might be struggling behind that desk?

    20. JH

      Yeah, so I think communication changes, so often what I look out for is a, is a change in behavior, so if somebody becomes more fidgety or less fidgety, if someone becomes louder or quieter-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. JH

      ... if someone puts their camera on less or more, like, and the same with socializing-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. JH

      ... if they're becoming more withdrawn. Um, so I have to often focus on, like, the change in the behavior and whether I think that's at- could be at- attributable to something.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. JH

      Obviously I'm not diagnosing everybody all around the world, but actually, if you s- if you get to know people, you'll notice when those things change, and when people's communication changes, so an example might be some people might get more controlling over their work-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. JH

      ... because they're like, "Don't really trust people. I'm really anxious at the minute. I'm just gonna do it myself 'cause it's easier," 'cause they won't delegate, for example. We see this a lot in the employment context, and that then, that's their, that's the way that their anxiety's manifesting rather than actually them going, "Okay, so I need to talk to someone about this." It's, uh, it'll manifest in different ways, which looks like they're being really difficult.

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. JH

      Looks like they're being controlling. Looks like they're not being fair. But actually, it's their way of coping, so if we can spot those things and deal with them in a ki- a kind and a fair way rather than going, "Well, that was really uncalled for, so now you need to be disciplined," that's just gonna make people feel more anxious.

  18. 40:17 – 42:10

    When people say you're 'too much'

    1. AP

      What, what do you say to people who... S- s- some people with ADHD often gets labeled too much or too intense.

    2. JH

      Me. [laughs]

    3. AP

      What do you say to people who say that?

    4. JH

      Um, so I actually used to be really ashamed of that. I used to cry. I used to be like, "I am too much," like, "No one will love me." I actually used to feel like that a lot, and I found that actually having had the diagnosis, that's allowed me to accept myself more, and now I'm like, "Well, if I'm too much, then go somewhere else," because I didn't used to have that mindset. I used to be, I used to feel really upset at, partly, I suppose, 'cause you feel rejected as well.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JH

      Feeds back into the RSD, you know? That constant feeling of rejection and that you're not good enough, but like, now I'm not good enough, but I'm also too much. Like, I can't win. Like, somebody give me a break. [laughs]

    7. AP

      Yeah.

    8. JH

      And that's the reality, and, and I get told all the time I'm so intense and I'm too much and I'm too this and I'm too that, but actually, the, the group of people I work with don't think that 'cause they accept me for who I am. So surrounding yourself with people who accept you for who you are is so important because they're not judging me. They actually... They, they, they like my quirks, I think. They're probably all like-

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. JH

      ... going, "Well, don't like them all."

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. JH

      But the reality being, like, you know, w- we're all gonna annoy, annoy each other at some point, but I think, like, labeling people as too much or too loud or too this, like, you're just trying to dim their light, and I just think that's... it's not, it's not a helpful thing to say to people.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      I f- I, I find it really triggering when people say that.

    15. AP

      100% relate and agree. If every time you tell someone they're too much, you're just hammering them into this confinement-

    16. JH

      Mm

    17. AP

      ... this constraint of, of them.

    18. JH

      Like a mold that they have to become part of in society that's like, but who creates that mold? Like, how-

    19. AP

      Yeah

    20. JH

      ... what are we trying to... Too much for what? Who, what, what's the level?

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. JH

      Like, there's no... I don't know. It's just this kind of this is how normal it is. Well, what is normal?

    23. AP

      Mm.

  19. 42:10 – 42:43

    What would you tell younger version of you

    1. AP

      If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself pre-diagnosis?

    2. JH

      I'd tell myself to be kinder to myself. I think I was really, really hard on myself. Definitely ... internally and just how much I pushed myself through things when actually I could have just taken a break or, you know, it didn't really need to happen that day. I could do it the next day. So almost, yeah, pu- almost punishing myself sometimes for not being good enough.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JH

      And if I could go back, just be kinder at each of those stages, and I'm, you know, maybe I wouldn't have had the breakdown.

  20. 42:43 – 44:59

    What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

    1. JH

      Who knows?

    2. AP

      What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

    3. JH

      Oh, God. Okay.

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. JH

      Well, um, did just get a tattoo in, in Morocco, another one.

    6. AP

      Ooh, yeah. What's it of?

    7. JH

      I've got loads of tattoos. Um, I've got a little, it's a little surf thing here. You probably-

    8. AP

      Oh, I can spot that, yeah. Yeah

    9. JH

      ... yeah, it's basically a tiny little-

    10. AP

      Okay

    11. JH

      ... um, wave. And we literally Googled it, didn't even research it. Went in-

    12. AP

      Mm

    13. JH

      ... and I was gonna get this huge heart chakra thing, and then we didn't have time, so I was like, "I'll just chuck a wave on there."

    14. AP

      [laughs]

    15. JH

      And I did it with my co-author, who's also a barrister, so it's not very, um, it's not very lawyerly, like, I don't think. But I've got quite a lot of tattoos, and some of them-

    16. AP

      Mm

    17. JH

      ... well, they all, they all have part of my, they're all part of my journey, but also some of them I've literally just gone in on the day and been like, "I'm going to just have that here."

    18. AP

      [laughs]

    19. JH

      And I've got a huge one here, and everyone's like, "What? Where, what? Why did you get that?" I was like, "I don't know, just like lions." They're like, "But it's huge."

    20. AP

      [laughs]

    21. JH

      Um, and then also travel.

    22. AP

      Mm.

    23. JH

      So I, I'm, I'm the friend that you need to message if you just wanna book a flight tomorrow.

    24. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    25. JH

      Like, yeah. Um, um, if my diary's not so busy. It's quite busy at the minute. But I, I booked last year, was it last year or the year before, um, like the week before, may- maybe not even the week before, two days before, I flew-

    26. AP

      Mm

    27. JH

      ... just before Christmas, like the day before Boxing Day. It, wait, so day before Christmas Eve. And I flew to Thailand for three weeks, didn't even book a hotel, just flew.

    28. AP

      Just went.

    29. JH

      Just went.

    30. AP

      [laughs]

  21. 44:59 – 45:45

    Advice for people who forget to empty the washing machine

    1. AP

      Have you got any advice for people who keep on forgetting to take the wet laundry out of the washing machine?

    2. JH

      [laughs] Um, so if you can get a cleaner. [laughs]

    3. AP

      Yeah, that helps. [laughs]

    4. JH

      Um, I, I'm actually horrendous at this. Um, oh, God, the amount of times that it smells.

    5. AP

      Yeah.

    6. JH

      Oh my God.

    7. AP

      I did it twice last week.

    8. JH

      Uh, honestly, I mean, f- I must use, like, three times as many tabs because-

    9. AP

      Yeah

    10. JH

      ... [laughs] because I'm constantly forgot-

    11. AP

      That ADHD tax coming in there.

    12. JH

      Yeah. Yeah, the ADHD tax is real. Um, yeah, I would... I actually have a cleaner now because, um, it is a real challenge.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JH

      I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that. Um, and I, I also live with my friend, and I'm alway- I'd always say to her, "Right, I've put the washing in, by the way."

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. JH

      So then she helps me remember to get things out. Um, great question. [laughs]

    17. AP

      [laughs] Um, yeah.

  22. 45:45 – 46:28

    Is ADHD a superpower?

    1. AP

      Do, do you think... What, what do you say when, when you hear people say ADHD is a superpower?

    2. JH

      I'm in two minds about it, because I, I appreciate that there are some, you know, incredible parts of ADHB- ADHD in terms of, like, hyperfocus and be able, being able to, like-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JH

      ... deal with a crisis, for example. But I, I'm, it goes back to the point about invalidating the difficulties. I, I struggle with the word, with saying that ADHD is generally a superpower, because I don't think it is. Um, but equally, I think it's important to celebrate the strengths that we have-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. JH

      ... when we are ADHD.

    7. AP

      Yeah. Totally agree. Jodie, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much.

    8. JH

      Oh, thank you. [outro music]

Episode duration: 46:28

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