How To Spot Autism In High-Masking Adults

1. 0:00 – 1:23

   Trailer

   1. LBDr. Luke Beardon0:00

      Being authentically autistic is an avenue towards being made to feel lesser, and that's because of a lifetime of being made to feel that it is your fault, that you are in the wrong. You're in the wrong for firing your nails, you're in the wrong for stimming, you're in the wrong for saying something that people say, "Oh, that's too direct."

   2. APAlex Partridge0:17

      What do you think is the biggest misconception around what autism in adults actually looks like?

   3. LBDr. Luke Beardon0:22

      The misconception is it, that it looks like anything at all. You can't look at somebody and tell them that they're autistic, otherwise we would all know who the autistic people are.

   4. APAlex Partridge0:30

      At what point should someone stop thinking, "Maybe I'm just anxious," or, "Maybe I'm just an introvert," and seriously consider that autism could explain their experience?

   5. LBDr. Luke Beardon0:38

      That's an amazing question. Um-

   6. APAlex Partridge0:42

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Luke, welcome.

   7. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:06

      Thank you very much.

   8. APAlex Partridge1:07

      Throughout today's conversation, I want everyone watching and listening to keep a mental checklist of the signs that we're going to be discussing, because at the end of this conversation, I'm gonna ask one question which will change how everyone will understand themselves. But before we get into all of that,

2. 1:23 – 2:46

   Why Luke dedicated his life to understanding autism

   1. APAlex Partridge1:23

      can you explain who you are and why you have dedicated your life to expanding the conversation around autism?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:30

      So, uh, my name's Dr. Luke Beardon. I'm a senior lecturer in autism at Sheffield Hallam University, and I've been there for 25 years. I know that 'cause I had a celebratory lunch the other day.

   3. APAlex Partridge1:40

      [laughs]

   4. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:40

      Um, so that was nice. That's the only reason I know I've been there for 25 years. Um, my interest in autism stemmed from when I was a volunteer, age 14, at a special school, a part of Addenbrooke's Hospital. Um, and I used to go and, uh, volunteer to look after, uh, little autistic children, and absolutely fell in love with my time there. I just found these autistic kids fascinating, and I found I resonated with where they were coming from. Um, and I never looked back. I went to university, uh, ended up as a grade one support worker in adult residential, working with autistic adults, and, uh, yeah, it... That, that, that was, that was the story, really. I've done quite a number of different jobs, culminating in being a senior lecturer. Um, and the idea of autism not being in my life, in terms of something to think about, is absolutely abhorrent.

   5. APAlex Partridge2:29

      [laughs] You explained that brilliantly and f- and far better than I could have done, and that's really amazingly summarized why I was so excited to, to, to chat to you on the podcast today. I think we should dive straight in, and I think, you know, one of the biggest questions that many people watching or listening will be asking themselves

3. 2:46 – 5:38

   How can someone be autistic for decades without knowing?

   1. APAlex Partridge2:46

      is, how is it possible for autistic adults to go much of their life, decades often, and, and be missed, and, and it not to be noticed?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon2:58

      Great question to start off with. How long have we got?

   3. APAlex Partridge3:00

      [laughs]

   4. LBDr. Luke Beardon3:00

      I, I... It's one of those questions that I don't think there's a simple answer, that I think there's a number of components that have, um, essentially amalgamated to create this almost imperfect storm for possibly a generation, maybe two generations, of current adults to have been, if you like, in inverted commas, missed. So on the one hand, you've got history. Um, so autism is relatively new. It's not new, by the way. Autism has always been around. But in terms of being, um, part of the diagnostic criteria, and people researching it, and clinicians understanding it, and those sorts of things, historically, it only stemmed from the sort of '40s onwards, and then there was a big leap in terms of the '80s and '90s. So there's... It- it's fairly embryonic. And also, history will show that people's understanding of autism has developed as the decades have gone on. So even in those early days of autism, people would not have understood autism in the same way that we do today. So even if you were a, a young child in those days, you might not have been picked up. So then you've got the educational system and, uh, knowledge around within education, and knowledge today arou- in education around autism is far better than it was 30, 40 years ago. So those teaching staff may not have had the knowledge to recognize those individuals in front of them. Um, and then as an adult, you've got maybe the more, um, if you like, political issues, like waiting lists, which makes it actually quite difficult for some individuals, um, to go forward for that identification process anyway. I like things in sets of three. So those three... Those are the three key things, I think, why lots of individuals go through life without being overtly recognized. That's not the same to say as they don't recognize themselves, and I think there's probably two groups of individuals, uh, who are autistic adults without a formal identification. One group who are quite happy to self-identify and are absolutely convinced, usually rightly so, that they are autistic. And then what I refer to as the oblivious autie, the autistic adult who, um, who is equally as autistic, but don't actually know that they are. And it's a stream running throughout all of my kind of thinking about autism, is that you don't know what you don't know, and I find it fascinating when so many individuals who end up getting that identification and that huge revelation. People say, "Well, why is it such a revelation? You're the same person you've always been." It's like, "Well, no, I didn't realize that I was like this. I didn't realize that other people weren't like that." And I find those pathways to identification absolutely fascinating.

   5. APAlex Partridge5:22

      Gosh, that's incredibly interesting, Luke, and I'm... I've no doubt that in your career, you have heard the phrase masking, and many autistic adults might be listening to this and thinking, "Do I mask? Am I high masking? Is that why it hasn't been

4. 5:38 – 8:06

   What high-masking autism actually looks like

   1. APAlex Partridge5:38

      picked up?" What do, what do you think high masking looks like in the, in the autism conversation?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon5:45

      So I think we need to be really careful when we talk about masking. Well, I think we need to be careful when we talk about language, um, because I think that... If language is to denote your own life experience, but your life experience is qualita- qua- qualitatively different to somebody else's who is using the same language, you als- you, you end up talking at cross purposes. And masking is a really good example. I always refer to Wittgenstein's lion, um, 'cause Wittgenstein put it so much better than I did. So Wittgenstein would say that if there was a lion here today as part of this podcast chatting to us in English, we still wouldn't be able to understand each other because the lion's life experience is so completely different that even though the language is the same, the meaning behind that language is so qualitatively different. And I think there's something to be said about autistic language and autistic experiences, including, for example, masking. So an autistic person might say, "Oh, well, I'm masking." And when I... If I'm doing some teaching or whatever, and so many people say, "Yeah, but we all mask a little bit, so what's the difference?" And I, I like your question about high masking, and I think I sometimes g- go back with three questions, say, "Well, okay, when you're masking in your, in your parlance and your use of the terminology, are you consciously aware that you're doing it all of the time? Does it take an enormous amount of effort, and are you wrecked as a direct result? Are you exhausted? Has your energy been depleted as a direct result of that?" And most people say no, no, and no. And I say, "Look, it's not always the case for the autistic person to say yes, yes, and yes, but it very commonly is." So I think that experience of masking is qualitatively quite different for the autistic adult compared to the, what I refer to as the predominant neurotype. And I'm really interested by this idea of energy and the amount of energy that gets put in and used up by this constant having to be somebody else. It's called echopraxic behavior, copying behavior, learned behavior that is not authentic. That's essentially what high masking is, and then the duration and the frequency and the intensity of that also comes into play. So you might be like, "I need to intensely mask in such and such a situation, where I feel very uncomfortable to be authe- authentically myself. But when I go home to my husband, I can be more authentically myself, and I mask an awful lot less."

   3. APAlex Partridge7:53

      But when would an autistic person, s- let's say a child, you say they observe human behavior, then they, I guess they learn what behavior is accepted, what jokes get laughed at, what comments get rejected and criticized.

5. 8:06 – 10:21

   How early does autistic masking begin?

   1. APAlex Partridge8:06

      How early in someone's life would that observing and copying start?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon8:10

      I think it's not even, or it's not only just a case of that observation. We overtly teach children to conform in some ways, particularly in schools and educational facilities. Sometimes we do that as parents. It's like, this is the expected way of being as a child, and if you fall outside of that demographic norm, you're often encouraged to conform, to behave more like the other kids. Um, so even from a very early age, so I went to a primary school over Christmas, and I just shuddered because on the wall there was one of those reward charts, and it was a... One of them was, um, you know, good sitting, so sitting still, for example. Now, I know we're here to talk about autism, but your ADHD l- d listeners will be s- m- won't be sitting there necessarily, but the idea of having to sit still for prolonged periods of time is just inauthentic. So what you're actually saying to those four, five, six-year-olds is, "You're not good enough being your own authentic self. We need you to change and conform, i.e. mask, in order to suit everybody else." So I think there's this pernicious, ongoing narrative that most people don't realize how harmful it actually is, but it's unbelievably neuronormative at heart, as in, "Your brain isn't working in the way that we want it to work, so you're the one who needs to change. You're the one that needs to conform." So we're almost forcing that masking, um, in a quite an overt way, right from a very young age.

   3. APAlex Partridge9:39

      Yeah. Gosh, and why can't neurotypicals meet us in the middle [laughs] a bit more, rather than assuming that the neurodivergent children have to shift so far away from their true selves? And we know that masking o- over time has really heartbreaking consequences in terms of, A, energy, how much effort you're having to put into pretending and copying and putting on this character called normal. But also it's, it's an identity crisis, I guess. You can, you can go through years pretending, being a chameleon, and ultimately you can really lose touch of who you really are. And I really wanna touch on that a little later on, and how people can bridge that gap between the masked version and who they actually are and, and begin to heal.

6. 10:21 – 16:10

   The biggest misconception about autism in adults

   1. APAlex Partridge10:21

      But what do you think, firstly, is the biggest misconception around what autism in adults actually looks like?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon10:30

      Um, well, I think the misconception is in the question that you've asked, in that it looks like anything at all. You can't look at somebody and tell them that they're autistic, otherwise we would all know who the autistic people are. It'd be as simple as that, and we probably wouldn't be sat here today. So, um, I mean, it's a very... it sounds like a very trite thing to do, but when, when you overhear that sort of, I would regard, inane comment, "Oh, so-and-so doesn't look autistic," if you follow that up and say, "Well, what does autism actually look like?" Nobody can give you the answer, which just demonstrates what a somewhat ridiculous thing it is to accuse somebody of, of either looking autistic or not looking autistic. And I think that is fundamentally an incredible misconception, that you can actually look autistic, and that there's a way of presenting, that all autistic people present in that way. It's, it's such an anomaly because it's so illogical. I, I fail to understand how anybody can ever really think about autism in that way. And yet, it's a prolific myth, and I am getting more and more obsessed with this concept that I came up with around autistic epistemology, which is what is autism knowledge? Where does autism knowledge come from? How accurate is autism knowledge? And then how potentially damaging is that misinformation when applied to the autistic population? And the idea that you can't be autistic 'cause you don't look a certain way is a c-... classic example of where autistic epistemology has failed to meet the threshold of validity. So that idea that you can look autistic, and then it's then applied to the autistic person. And I know so many adults, often who are masking, who get literally accused of making up the fact that they are autistic because they don't, in inverted commas, "look autistic," and that's hugely damaging around your own sense of self and your own authenticity.

   3. APAlex Partridge12:18

      If we know that masking starts young, what would an experience of an autistic child be that would make them think, "I need to hide who I am"?

   4. LBDr. Luke Beardon12:29

      I think, well, I think there are some autistic individuals who don't appear to be bothered in the slightest, um, who do, uh, behave in more authentic ways. Um, and they are often rejected subsequently from mainstream environments because, in inverted commas, they don't fit in. So they're rejected s- straight away just for being themselves, um, which has its pros and cons, one would argue, on an individual-by-individual basis. Then you've got individuals who, and I'm absolutely convinced, this isn't researched, but I'm still... I maintain I'm convinced by this, that there's a significant percentage of the autistic population who hate being in the spotlight, absolutely hate it, and will almost do anything to fly under the radar. So it's not that one is deliberately copying, it's one has learned to copy in order not to be in the spotlight, which then develops those habitual masking, um, types of behaviors, and it's an escape mechanism. It's, it's that combination of, um, autistic safety, authenticity, and energy, and I think that the combination of those three things has to be taken into account. So you've got an autistic person who wants to feel safe, and as a direct result of wanting to feel safe, they're not allowed to be authentic, and so they've gotta use up an almost enormous amount of energy by masking. But for them in that situation, it's the only way forward, 'cause it's the only way to feel safe. Now, what would be amazing would be they were allowed to feel safe by being authentic, but that currently is often not the case.

   5. APAlex Partridge13:56

      What's the difference between an autistic person who does have that insight into their differences, and therefore masks to hide their differences, and somebody that you said perhaps doesn't feel the need to mask?

   6. LBDr. Luke Beardon14:09

      Um, I think it's all about both insight into self and insight into other people and society and expectations and all of those sorts of things. Um, going back to this idea of the oblivious autie, it can be quite nice not realizing that other people are thinking you're a bit odd.

   7. APAlex Partridge14:24

      Yes.

   8. LBDr. Luke Beardon14:24

      And I've heard, certainly heard other people going, "Oh, well, I kind of wish I'd hadn't known that now, 'cause now I, now I'm more conscious of the fact that actually most people don't do things like that." I'm, I'm obsessed with this concept of understanding of self, and going back to what I was saying earlier, how do you know what you don't know? So how do you know what other people are experiencing or thinking or feeling, um, until maybe such a time that you realize that maybe you are different, and then you explore it in greater detail? And there's pros and cons of that. So I'm absolutely convinced that the better understanding you've got of self, the better, uh, able you are to make choices that are appropriate to you, which then leads to increased chances of wellbeing and decreased risk of trauma, for example. Um, and I think that only knowing that you're autistic and understanding what that means specifically to you are you able to go down, down that decision-making process that's applicable to you and not, and not applicable to the rest of the world. Um, but to get to that point, you have to understand that your way or your, the way in which your brain works might differ to the majority of other people.

   9. APAlex Partridge15:23

      Mm.

   10. LBDr. Luke Beardon15:24

       And that can be an absolute revelation, literally an overnight revelation for some people, who then are like, "Well, how come I haven't realized this for the previous 40 years?" And actually feel a bit like, "Oh dear, that's a bit strange. How come I didn't know?" It's 'cause you don't know. It's like being color blind. How do you know that other people see things in different colors compared to you until it comes up in the conversation or whatever? Um, or you've got individuals who are like, "I've always felt slightly different, but I've never had that kind of label to pinpoint. Now that I understand that, everything suddenly makes an enormous amount of sense."

   11. APAlex Partridge15:53

       Yes, so, so, so interesting. I mean, so if we... I guess now we can have an understanding of why somebody might mask, but if someone is really, really good at it, like, what are we talking about in terms of what we might be looking for in terms of spotting somebody or somebody recognizing in themselves that they might

7. 16:10 – 17:37

   The biggest signs you’re masking autism

   1. APAlex Partridge16:10

      be masking? Like, what, what do you think are the biggest signs of somebody masking autism?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon16:15

      Um, almost by definition, if somebody's really, really good at masking, it is impossible to spot, um, in, in the sort of day-to-day. So say we were sitting here and one of us was highly masking and to, to a really effective degree, within this hour or so, you wouldn't be able to pick up on that. So I think it's all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, particularly levels of anxiety, um, levels of feeling safe, going back to the concept of doing things in sets of threes, um, and then the amount of energy that the individual is putting into doing that. And you only know that outside of the masking situation, um, which is why so many people would say, "Well, I mask, I mask, I mask, and then I just have to go home and then lie in a darkened room for that recovery period." Which is because they've taken up so much energy, and as a direct result of having to suppress their anxiety as well, um, that when you're o- offered that safe, authentic space to be yourself, um, that's when you... And, and you actually need that. So if you know somebody who appears to need recovery time, if you like, um, as a result of being out in the real, in, in inverted commas, the real world, what people refer to as the real world, everybody lives in the real world as far as I'm concerned, but anyway, going into mainstream society, and you need that recovery time afterwards, um, along with ongoing high levels of anxiety and lower levels of energy, that combination, I think, are the sort of three flags that could be raised to go, "Hang on a minute. Is this person masking and using up an enormous amount of energy for doing so?"

8. 17:37 – 23:50

   Why autistic people rehearse conversations

   1. APAlex Partridge17:37

      What about rehearsing conversations? Is that like preparing the mask before you go into an event?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon17:42

      So, uh, it's slightly different from masking. I think it's a protective thing, again, around, um, b- reduction of potential anxiety. Being anxious is a horrible, horrible, horrible situation to be in. Uh, autistic people aren't stupid. They don't want to be in situations that are gonna cause them anxiety, and if you don't understand the language of the predominant neurotype, um, because you have your own understanding of language and that differs, even if it only differs 5 to 10%, I'm just making these statistics up, but even if it do- i- if it differs even slightly, that means that you're always in a position where you can be found out to have said something that other people think is stupid or-

   3. APAlex Partridge18:19

      Mm

   4. LBDr. Luke Beardon18:19

      ... a, a remark that people say, "Well, that's... That you shouldn't have said that," or, "That's not the appropriate time," or, "What do you mean by that?" Or whatever. So, um, rehearsing conversations to double-check that what you say is not going to be picked up on, which will make you more anxious and put you in the spotlight, is a perfectly logical thing to do. Takes a huge amount of mental energy, but if you a- are able to do that in order to feel safe, it does make a lot of sense.

   5. APAlex Partridge18:43

      What about matching somebody's communication style? Because you typically, at least in this interview, speak faster than I would typically speak, and I'm finding myself actually kind of speeding up how I would speak in order to match and create a, a, an equal middle ground between how we're speaking, and I've just realized that that's kind of an, an autopilot thing that I'm doing. Is matching someone's communication style, their tone of voice, their accent, is that a form of masking?

   6. LBDr. Luke Beardon19:11

      Uh, it goes back to what I was talking earlier about that term echopraxia, which is kind of like copying behavior. Um, some autistic people do that absolutely inadvertently and get accused almost of taking the Mickey out of people, saying, "Why are you suddenly turned into an American?" Just 'cause I'm American.

   7. APAlex Partridge19:24

      [laughs] Yeah.

   8. LBDr. Luke Beardon19:25

      And is that kind of like a... And, and often autistic people say, "I don't... I'm not even aware that I'm doing it." Um, other people, I think again it's a safety thing. The more you gel with the sort of culture of the person you're with, the less likely that you stand out. I'm now really conscious of the fact that I'm talking quickly.

   9. APAlex Partridge19:40

      No, no, it's brilliant.

   10. LBDr. Luke Beardon19:40

       Is that... No, I, I was speeding up.

   11. APAlex Partridge19:40

       I'm just finding myself speeding up. [laughs]

   12. LBDr. Luke Beardon19:42

       I, I, I spoke at a conference not so long ago, um, and I was... I think I'd had too much coffee, and I was really going for it and, uh, it was fascinating 'cause, um, somebody, uh, stood up afterwards and said, "My ADHD brain just loved it." She said, "You're the first person that's ever spoken at the right speed for me."

   13. APAlex Partridge19:57

       [laughs]

   14. LBDr. Luke Beardon19:57

       "Otherwise, everybody's just way too slow."

   15. APAlex Partridge19:59

       [laughs]

   16. LBDr. Luke Beardon19:59

       So I, I hope I'm not alienating any of your audience.

   17. APAlex Partridge20:01

       No, it's brilliant. I, I do it all the time. I got into a taxi yesterday, and I've been accused in the past of being quite posh. [laughs] And the, the taxi driver said, um, "Where do you wanna go, mate?" And I kind of dropped my Ts a little bit in my response. I said, uh, "Uh, Brighton train station, please." And I could sense that in response to that, he replied to me in a slightly more posh tone than what his normal might be, and I was super aware that we were kind of merging and meeting each other in the middle. And for me, that's always been something I'm super aware of, and it's very uncomfortable when I have different friendship groups who perhaps speak very differently, have very different interest bases, and I'm kind of having to please everyone simultaneously, and sometimes that gets comments from a friend saying, "You don't really like that. Why did you say you're interested in football?" Or, "Why are you speaking like that? That's not how you normally speak." Can that cause confusions and complications in people's life if they're copying people too much?

   18. LBDr. Luke Beardon20:54

       Yeah. I, hmm, I don't know whether it's fair to say they're copying too much, 'cause presumably they've got very good reasons for doing that, and sometimes it is that conformity to fit in and not be in the spotlight, but also fit in because you want a social circle, and you want to be accepted within that social circle. Um, and it, it goes back to that idea of balance. I love the idea of balance, 'cause good balance in terms of what you put in, you get something back, is quite difficult to find, I think, if you're from, um, a neurological variance, if you're neurodivergent, because the world is against you. And that sounds, it sounds like a ridiculous clickbaity thing to say. I don't mean the world is against you, but you, because you're in the minority, you are by definition in the minority, so the majority of people do things in certain ways, and you do things in a different way, so you're always up against it to a certain degree just by being in that minority group. So if you take an example, I'd s- I'm just trying to think of a, a ridiculous example that, uh... So say, say, say at the age of three you discover that you only feel really super authentically safe, um, when you're wearing an orange bowler hat, okay? Uh, I have literally just made that up.

   19. APAlex Partridge22:02

       [laughs]

   20. LBDr. Luke Beardon22:03

       And so, but so if anybody's out there who loves orange bowler hats, good for you, but I don't know of anybody myself. Um, so and, and that's only... And you put on your orange bowler hat, and all of a sudden people are looking at you, staring and making comments. All of a sudden you're like, "I don't feel safe anymore. Um, what do I do?" Like, literally, what do I do? Do I go home and hide in my room and just stare in the mirror at myself in my orange bowler hat and feel super happy, but not engage with the rest of the world and feel unfulfilled? Or do I just keep going out in my orange bowler hat... I nearly forgot what my example was then. So keep on going out wearing, and then feeling to be a bit silly or other people looking down on me or making comments and put up with it, which takes a lot of my energy as well, or do I conform and just not wear a bowler hat and then not feel authentic? Those are often the only three options available to the autistic individual. How amazing would it be if everybody else started wearing orange bowler hats, or it's perfectly okay to wear an orange bowler hat and nobody'd blink an eyelid because it's not doing anybody any harm whatsoever? And that's obviously an alternative solution, which is why I always talk about autism plus environment equals outcome. It's like my self-professed golden equation. Being autistic means being autistic. It doesn't lead to an outcome. Um, and yet we know there are all sorts of outcomes for autistic people, like low employment, um, trauma, all of those, or high levels of anxiety. So what is it we need to change? We need to change the environment. In this case, if we change the environment by flooding it with people wearing orange bo- bowler hats, um, so that the bowler hat and wearing individual feels more authentic and at ease and safe, then that's the obvious solution.

   21. APAlex Partridge23:31

       As well as, like, the bowler hat and, and almost deciding whether to conform or to retreat, uh, can that be the same with communication styles? And I'm thinking of, of things like small talk. I guess a lot of people fake or force small talk because that is conforming and, and, and many people do partake in small talk.

9. 23:50 – 29:59

   Why small talk can be so exhausting

   1. APAlex Partridge23:50

      Why do many autistic people find small talk so exhausting?

   2. LBDr. Luke Beardon23:54

      Do you know what? I, I... It's such a good question because I, I'm not a big fan of small talk. I don't And I remember begging a clinical psychologist, um, to explain to me what small ta- why is it that people talk such utter nonsense to one another, and you're literally li- sitting there listening to them-

   3. APAlex Partridge24:11

      [laughs]

   4. LBDr. Luke Beardon24:11

      ... thinking, "This makes no logical sense to me whatsoever"? Like, they'll say, "Oh, did you see the football last night?" And the other person goes, "Yes." And then they start talking about... It's like, you literally just agreed you've seen the same thing. That should be the end of the conversation, not the beginning. That's not information sharing. You're just... Or, or wha- or whatever. You could talk about all sorts of things where... And she explained it to me as a kind of anthropological stroke sociological thing about, um, feeling connected with, with other humans. If that doesn't make you feel connected, actually, it's, it has the opposite. It makes you feel disconnected. Why would you want to engage in it? And it is... Honestly, it's a minefield because you can go in with a conversation and, uh, provide what you think is a totally apt, appropriate, uh, interesting comment or question, and all of a sudden, you're the one who's been ostracized for saying something that the rest of the group don- doesn't think is appropriate. Or you respond to something that actually they were talking about three weeks ago, and you've just come up with the perfect response.

   5. APAlex Partridge25:07

      Yes. [laughs]

   6. LBDr. Luke Beardon25:08

      Or whatever it might be. So small talk genuinely can be absolutely terrifying. Um, and I... That, that's why I talk about autistic social skills. People say, "Oh, autistic people lack social skills." Absolute rubbish. It's going, oh, yeah, but autistic people are not very good at, for example, engaging in small talk. That's predominant neurotype social skills. So what you're saying is the autistic person is not very good at not being autistic. Well, we know that. Show me a non-autistic person who's good at being autistic. They don't exist either. So, um, people who are listening might be like, "Oh, well, yeah, people, autistic people lack social skills." What about the rest of those individuals? How many non-autistic people have got good autistic social skills? For example, just not talking, um, in that s- small talk as a, um, you know, uh, i- in terms of going, "Oh, well, I know I'm with an autistic person. Their social skills dictates that we talk about," in my example, either autism or triathlons or the smell of my animals. Um, those are the three things that I like to talk about.

   7. APAlex Partridge25:59

      [laughs]

   8. LBDr. Luke Beardon25:59

      You talk to me about anything else, not interested. Thank you.

   9. APAlex Partridge26:02

      [laughs] It's weird because you say, uh... and it makes total sense from the, what the psychologist told you, that small talk is kind of a, an evolutionary... It's there to lubricate a social introduction, to transition between not knowing each other and, and knowing each other. How are you? How's the weather? Did you watch the football game? But at, as a, as an opportunity and a mechanism to bridge you together before you get into the meat of the conversation. But for me, it does the opposite, 'cause it always comes across as insincere and forced. And because it is a conversation or part of the conversation that is kind of just an artificial mechanism to bridge into the meat, it just feels like you're not, or they're not being authentic. So for me, it's doing the opposite. You're, you're starting the conversation on the back foot or from a place of suspicion and lack of trust because you know at the beginning, the most important bit when judgments are being made, you're not being genuine, or neither are they.

   10. LBDr. Luke Beardon26:58

       And, uh, uh, that goes back to what I was saying about Victor Frankenstein's lion. Presumably, their engagement is absolutely authentic, and they're loving it. May- I guess. I don't know. You'd have to ask them. As I say, I find it somewhat illogical. But anyway, um, so where's the give and take? I have lovely example. I was with a group of individuals, and we used to have set meetings, and it used to frustrate me so much. There was agenda, like a formal meeting with a set agenda, and it starts at, say, midday, and people were engaging in like, "Oh, how are your kids?" or whatever. And you say, "Look, I'm sorry, but this isn't on the agenda, is it?" And they're like, "Oh, no, we were just chatting." It's like, well, it doesn't say just chatting on the agenda-

   11. APAlex Partridge27:38

       [laughs]

   12. LBDr. Luke Beardon27:38

       ... at 12 o'clock.

   13. APAlex Partridge27:39

       Yeah. [laughs]

   14. LBDr. Luke Beardon27:39

       Um, so the, the compromise, if you like, was they would then meet up 15 minutes before the meeting, and then I would just chip in at 12, so they could talk about whatever they wanted to talk about in that social sense before. Then we would start at 12, and if they wanted to carry on afterwards, then they could. Now, I think that kind of, that gorgeous juxtaposition of differing communication styles that can go hand in hand with a little bit of good give or take from both parties is absolutely the way forward. I think what you're experiencing, and most people who are neurodivergent experience, is that lack of courtesy to bring their own neurology into account, um, and it's almost like this one size fits all. That is the way we do it, and you just either have to join in or be ostracized, which I think is, is awful.

   15. APAlex Partridge28:26

       Yes. Yeah, yeah. It, it makes you quite anxious, actually. Like, when I read an email, and, you know, typically an email will start with, "Hi, Alex," or, "Hi, Luke. Hope you're well. How are you? Did you have a nice weekend?" And you just know it's just forced. And do I have to answer that? Can I just get into the point? Um, and often I, and I do because you feel like rude, and you overthink how you might be perceived if you ignore the email equivalent of small talk, which is, you know, how are you? Did you have a good weekend? And so you have to do it. You have to do the dance.

   16. LBDr. Luke Beardon28:54

       And I, I think, like, for me anyway, I, I, I make the assumption that these things come from a place of kindness, and I think, and I'm fairly convinced they do. Um, but the example you just gave, I'm on edge now 'cause if, if somebody I know, particularly if, if they know me well at work, and they'll say, "Oh, how are you?" I'll immediately be like, "Well, I thought I was okay until you just asked that question, 'cause do you know something that I don't?" And that fear of, oh, have I messed up again? And you know that, but I don't. That's why you're asking the question. It's just immediate response of years of me getting things wrong. [laughs]

   17. APAlex Partridge29:32

       [laughs]

   18. LBDr. Luke Beardon29:32

       And desperate never to be in the wrong again.

   19. APAlex Partridge29:35

       Yeah. Gosh, so, so fascinating and 100% relatable. And now I'm worried about that, that h- how are you, Alex, at the start of the email that I didn't reply to, how that's gonna come across. Luke, everything we've spoken about before is, uh, is I suppose what people can see. Um, but I think a lot of masking can sometimes be invisible, like it's happening inside the body, inside the nervous system, and I'm particularly thinking about

10. 29:59 – 36:40

    What sensory overwhelm actually feels like

    1. APAlex Partridge29:59

       sensory overstimulation and overwhelm. What can that look like or feel like from the inside to the person experiencing it?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon30:09

       So, um, my understanding in terms of the neurology of sensory processing is that there's a, uh, what's called the filtering process in your brain that filters out of sensory stimuli, um, to, to, you got your five prim- primary senses and your vestibular sensory system, interoception, and proprioception. That's probably a conversation for another day. I could go on forever about sensory side of things, but, um, in the, the, the most people's brains, that filter process is operational 24/7, so it's even operational when you're asleep, um, which is why you wake up when your alarm goes off, for example, uh, 'cause your ears are still working. Um, but your brain filters out essentially extraneous information, so there's an enormous amount, for example, of noise going on in this room, um, not least the noise of the, um, cameras and the projectors and so on, so on and so forth, um, and it might be that most people are just filtering that out. So it's not that your ears aren't picking up on the noise. You can't stop your ears from working. Um, it's that filter. There's a neurophysiological process and the function of the brain that acts as that kind of filter. What seems to happen, so far as I can tell, in the autistic brain is either, um, that filter process becomes permeable and a huge amount of, uh, information goes straight into the conscious part of the brain. And actually, in the non-autistic brain, the majority of information stays in the subconscious part of the brain. It isn't... It's filtered out. Um, that, that's why, um, to- se- sensory torture is a real thing in terms of deliberately overloading the brain by high levels of stimulus and people, people, human brains just can't cope with it, and I think that's what's similar, what's going on in the autistic brain when it's sensory overload, that the filter process is being permeable and huge amounts of information through all of your senses are hitting the conscious part of your brain at any one time, and your brain can't cope with it, literally can't cope, so it just shuts down, um, and I think that's an example of sensory overload. The opposite sometimes happen. When we talk about being monotropic, um, which is, I don't think ju- only specific to autistic people, I think ADHD individuals, um, will often describe being monotropic as well.

    3. APAlex Partridge32:09

       What does that mean? Monotrope- monotropy?

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon32:11

       Mo- monotropism or monotropism, I never know, but anyway, um, so it's an autistic-led theory, um, trying to explain autism, um, about, um, uh, uh, flow states and being tunnel. So in a sensory perspective, it might be that your brain cuts off sensory stimuli apart from one, so you get a huge amount of visual information while being deaf, for example, and you're not actually deaf. Your, your brain is just not processing-

    5. APAlex Partridge32:36

       Mm

    6. LBDr. Luke Beardon32:36

       ... auditory. That's why so many autistic kids, their parents think that they're deaf, and you ask them, "Why did you think your child was deaf?" They say, "Oh, well, you know, we were shouting their name, and they literally didn't even flinch." That's a good question to ask, but the follow-up question I think is more illuminating, is like, "What, what was your kid doing at the time?" Often the parent will go, "Oh, well, they were rubbing their face against the cat," or, "They were staring at the bubble tube," or whatever it might be. It's like, ah, I think that's an example of monotropism. And actually, if you're in that flow state and totally engaged, it's very difficult to get out of it, um, so when you're interrupted, it can be quite distressing, distressing, um, to be able to switch attention from one thing to another, which again is a very ADHD thing. So I think monotropism for some of your listeners might be really interesting, um, thing to investigate-

    7. APAlex Partridge33:15

       Mm

    8. LBDr. Luke Beardon33:15

       ... if they're not aware of it already.

    9. APAlex Partridge33:17

       Yes. Yeah, I mean, the, the sort of mid-hyperfocus interruption rage, [laughs] uh, is, is very common and a reported sort of, uh, behavior. If, if you're sort of super interested in whatever your monotropic focus is, and you get a tap on the shoulder or something interrupts it, it can be, it can be very annoying because you finally found something that is giving you that dopamine that can be quite hard to find, and then someone's pulling you out of it. With the s- sensory overload and, and just focusing in on what that feels like, is... How painful can that be as an internal experience? Um, there's a lift outside the studio, for example. It's got a big six-foot metal door, and it gets pushed along the track, and it slams against the metal door, and it's like a big clash combined with what I would describe it as like someone pulling seven knives and forks against a cutlery plate. It's the most excruciating noise ever, and for me, every time it happens, we've put a lot of soundproofing in now to make sure that doesn't happen whilst we record the i- interview. But when I go to the loo or when I'm stood in the corridor, I can hear it, and it literally fills me with an overwhelming feeling of I cannot think about anything else other than just how frustrating this noise is. Is that an example of o- o- o- overstimulation, or is that just a response to a, an, an, an annoying noise?

    10. LBDr. Luke Beardon34:36

        I think you've answered your own question brilliantly. Um, I think m- a lot of it goes that back to... I don't want to bleat on about it. I do actually, 'cause otherwise I wouldn't be, but, um, going back to that balance, I suspect if you have a really, really good night's sleep and you're full of energy and you're not anxious, your ability to regulate that particular noise would be far superior to when you're, h- you haven't slept very well, you're particularly anxious about something else, um, et cetera. Um, so the noise itself is exactly the same. Your ability to regulate and process that information will differ depending on your other sets of energies, which is why I'm s- so keen on understanding the balance of energies, because I don't think we take it into account nearly enough. So you were mentioning earlier about social chitchat, for example. Social energy is huge. So we know... I don't... I was gonna say I don't wanna look at anybody in particular. You're the only person in the room, but you're amazing, so before I say anything, you are amazing. But there are some people who are mood hoovers. It's like, from a social perspective, it's like, oh, my God, they literally just drain the living social life out of me by being in a room. Whereas then you might have a situation where f- f- me, for example, t- to talk, just talking about my own experience, chatting to somebody like you and getting an absolute buzz of maybe intellectual stimulus, um, social stimulus, communicative in, uh, stimulus, and mental, a- and to a certain degree, emotional. So you're actually adding to those, uh, coffers of my energy, um, rather than draining, so that somebody else might drain in those similar ways. So- If we can chart where those energies are coming from and where they're being taken away, it allows us to be more preventative to be in a situation where otherwise it's like, "No, that sensory overload's like that. I can armor myself against it by only exposing myself to that sensory environment when I know I've got enough spoons or energy to cope with it."

    11. APAlex Partridge36:30

        And if that energy gets too much, there's, there's lots of big, horrible metal lift doors slamming, and big bright lights, and too much background noise,

11. 36:40 – 40:04

    Why autistic people stim

    1. APAlex Partridge36:40

       uh, can people regulate themselves in those environments by stimming?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon36:46

       So stimming's an example of regulation. It doesn't take the stimulation away, but it allows you to divert a certain amount of energy i- literally in the here and now in order to be able to cope. I'm not a big fan of coping mechanisms 'cause it's like when you go into school and say, and somebody says, "Oh, she's coping really well," when she's got dozens of coping mechanisms. I just think, "Well, you're getting it wrong then. If you weren't getting it wrong, she wouldn't have to be coping, would she?"

    3. APAlex Partridge37:13

       Yes, yes.

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon37:13

       Um, but they can be invaluable if you're in an environment where you need some other kind of regulatory balance in order to p- put up with what you're engaging with on a day-to-day basis, and stimming of what, is one of them. And it's not always negative. People can stim when they're super happy or super excited, or just stim 'cause it's a brilliant thing to do. Um, I once put on, when I was on Twitter, uh, I put forward the idea that stim dancing ought to be at the next Olympics-

    5. APAlex Partridge37:39

       [laughs]

    6. LBDr. Luke Beardon37:39

       ... as an event, and I still maintain that would be brilliant.

    7. APAlex Partridge37:41

       [laughs]

    8. LBDr. Luke Beardon37:42

       And people put in, sent me some amazing videos of stim dancing. Um, so it can be a joyous, fantastic thing as well, but it comes back to that regulatory balance of how you m- in this case, movement, and particular vestibular movement, in order to counterbalance, your example, auditory processing. So it's where one typology of, or w- what we call modality, in your example, auditory, might be bala- in, in a negative way, might be balanced out in a positive way by vestibular movement, um, so that balances it out and helps you regulate.

    9. APAlex Partridge38:13

       I've, I've, uh, always bit my fingernails in the past. I've always, like, tapped my hands or my legs, and in the past, people have said, "Alex, stop fidgeting." [laughs] Uh, and is suppressing stimming, which I do now subconsciously, probably as a result of being told off for doing it, uh, is, is suppressing stimming a form of masking?

    10. LBDr. Luke Beardon38:32

        It's a form of masking, but I also think it's, it's an indication of where people have got it wrong, um, again, coming from a place of kindness. So if I'm... I was gonna say, "If I'm your parent," that'd be weird.

    11. APAlex Partridge38:43

        [laughs]

    12. LBDr. Luke Beardon38:43

        Um, but say, uh, well, whoever, whoever's told you to stop biting, biting your nails is, is, or, or, or, or biting yourself or whatever, or, or even just stimming. If I think that's as, because you're an anxious human being, um, I believe wrongly, but I genuinely believe that getting you to stop doing that means I take away your anxiety. That's why I'm asking you to stop. However, I'm not getting rid of your anxiety, I'm just getting rid of your own way of regulating your anxiety, or, and/or I'm stopping your communicative ability to tell me that you're anxious in the first place. So, um, to get rid of, it, it, it's not getting rid of the cause of why you're doing it in the first place. Um, you're only getting rid of the symptom, which doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. Because one of the, one of the most frustrating phrases in the world of language is when somebody say, "They did that for no reason," because it's oxymoronic. It is, it cannot be true. Everything happens for a reason. If there was no reason, it would not happen, end of story. What people actually mean is, "I don't understand what the reason is," um, which is a very different, uh, suggestion or question to put forward, to say, "Okay, let's work out why an individual is behaving in that way, and then work out whether we need to do anything about it." Now, if you're biting your nails 'cause you're anxious, surely the way forward is to stop you being anxious, not to stop you biting your nails.

12. 40:04 – 41:31

    Tiimo advert

    1. APAlex Partridge40:04

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13. 41:31 – 43:33

    The autistic behaviours people are made to feel ashamed of

    1. APAlex Partridge41:31

       as a conversation following on from what you just said, do you think there are some s- conversations, there are some behaviors that autistic people might do more and get made to feel shame for from the world, and therefore they suppress them, other than stimming?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon41:46

       Oh, I, I think just being authentically autistic is an avenue towards being made to feel lesser often. Um, I came up with this new word, a neologism called scrupulautity, based on religious guilt, which is scrupulosity, so just being made inherently to feel guilty for your religious upbringing. And I know so many- This isn't researched, but I've, I've talked to so many autistic adults about this idea of scrupulosity, where if something goes wrong, you immediately assume it's your fault. Um, and that's because of a lifetime of being made to feel that it is your fault, that you are in the wrong. You're in the wrong for biting your nails. You're in the wrong for stimming. You're in the wrong for saying something that people say, "Oh, that's too direct." Or, or, um, people say, oh... Well, I've been accused of being too pedantic, and I just think, uh, you're essentially saying I'm being too linguistically accurate.

    3. APAlex Partridge42:45

       [laughs] Yes.

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon42:45

       Is that... What... How can that be a bad thing?

    5. APAlex Partridge42:48

       Yeah.

    6. LBDr. Luke Beardon42:48

       That's extraordinary.

    7. APAlex Partridge42:49

       Yes.

    8. LBDr. Luke Beardon42:49

       Um, I, I, it was only yesterday, I was reading the pleonasm of, in a newspaper article where somebody had to point out that there were three triplets. It's like, how many triplets do you think there are gonna be? Like, that's a... And yet you raise that and people are, "Oh, that's just pedantic." It's like, no, that's pleonastic, ridiculous narrative. Stop doing it or whatever. But being told over and over again, "That's wrong. You shouldn't do it. You shouldn't say that. You sh- you shouldn't be bothered about that. You should be bothered about that," that makes you feel inherently guilty, and I think a lot of just being authentically autistic leads into a lifetime then of people feeling like that, which is absolutely tragic.

    9. APAlex Partridge43:23

       So far, we've spoken about what masking looks like, but the real question is, if someone masks for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, even longer,

14. 43:33 – 46:39

    The hidden cost of masking autism

    1. APAlex Partridge43:34

       what can masking ultimately cost someone?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon43:37

       Well, I don't wanna be too bleak, but it can cost you your life, um, I suspect. We know that there is a link between, um, prolonged masking and increased risk of trauma, and we know that there's an increased risk between trauma and suicidality, and we know that autistic adults are more likely to go down that route compared to the predominant neurotype. So it seems sensible to have that note of caution at an extreme end, in answer to your question, honest answer to your question, in terms of what it could cost somebody. I'm not saying it would or it will, but there is that increased risk, I would suggest. Uh, for most individuals, that longer term, um, masking, I worry about sense of self that I've mentioned earlier. That if you're prolonged being somebody else... And I know some autistic people who literally, when they walk out the front door, they've changed their name. Nobody knows what their actual name is, because as soon as they've walked out, "I'm masking so much, I become a different persona." And those individuals, over decades, lose sight of who they were originally, because they're constantly putting on this act, and then they report, to me anyway, that they end up just completely alienated in terms of any sense of self whatsoever. I've even had people say, "Well, you, you've known me for years. Can you just tell me who I am again? What's my personality? Because I don't know, because I've had to be somebody else for so long. It's... And, and the longer I do it, the harder it is to get back to my own authenticity." And I think that's pretty bleak in terms of mental health and the all associated mental health sides of things. Um, and then you've got the physical side of things as well. If you're utilizing enormous amounts of energy, um, and that you're on the verge of things like burnout, um, and, uh, your anxiety levels are higher, um, those prolonged ongoing levels of anxiety can lead to things like, um, chronic fatigue, you know, fibromyalgia, those sorts of, um, issues, where if your body is, is in a high state of, um, anxiety or fight or flight, and you're not allowed to do anything about it, because you're masking and you're not allowed to fight or flight on ordinary everyday activities, that energy, literal energy in terms of chemical reactions in your body, um, ends up becoming toxic. That's my understanding anyway. And if that floods your joints and makes you, uh, feel tired and all of those sorts of things, if, if you're having high levels of adrenaline, for example, just by ord- ordinary existence, it's not very good for you.

    3. APAlex Partridge46:20

       Yes. Yeah, I mean, the, the knock-on effects of what everything you just said can lead to some considerably life-threatening diseases, and that goes without saying. I mean, the burnout thing's fascinating. You mentioned burnout. It... Can you, you mask so much that you are just using so much energy, and obviously that is finite. It gets depleted.

15. 46:39 – 49:58

    What autistic burnout actually feels like

    1. APAlex Partridge46:40

       What does it look like? What does autistic burnout look like? Is that... Can that be quite catastrophic?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon46:44

       Oh, 100%. Um, and I hope anybody who's listening to this never experiences it. Um, autistic people who describe burnout will literally say it's like they, they cannot process the world. And the recovery time from burnout often depends on how long the build-up to that burnout is. Um, and it, it worries me desperately that we still don't even know, we still don't even have general consensus on what burnout, a burnout definition actually is, for example. Um, so we've got some amazing people doing work in the field of burnout, but there's not a general consensus for a clinical level or professional level in terms of autistic burnout, for example. Um, and we frequently find autistic children go through educational system and hitting burnout because they're masking, and bec- It's like a, a triple whammy, masking. I should have said this right at the beginning, but anyway, better late than never. So it takes a huge amount of effort often, and u- using up the energy. Um, and then because you're masking, nobody thinks that there's an issue, so nobody provides the support that you actually require in the first place. And then the believability when you try and explain what it's actually like, people are like, "Oh no, you were fine. I could see you were fine." Or they accuse parents of, "Well, your child was absolutely fine at school. There was no problem whatsoever." It's a case of what you see is not what you get, going back to what you were saying about internalizing things. And if you're very, very good at masking, that's what you're doing. You're internalizing your own authenticity at great cost to yourself, and at the same time, the world around you thinks you're perfectly fine. So it's a real triple whammy.

    3. APAlex Partridge48:23

       Do you think it, an autistic person who is masking so well, as they're approaching burnout, they might not know it. Like, does everyone have a breaking point, even if they think that they're coping?

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon48:35

       Everybody has a breaking point. Uh, but it just seems nonsensical not to think that. Now, again, this isn't research, but I have personally witnessed individual case studies of older people who don't know they're autistic, um, who have ended up very unwell, and I'm not a clinician, but from my understanding of autism and burnout, I think they've hit burnout often because they've retired or they've had a bereavement, some quite major change in their life, so they've been coping, going back to the use of that word, with everyday life because that's what they're used to and it's routinized, they've got the same job and so on and so forth. Then all of a sudden something changes, and they literally can't cope anymore, and they end up under section or whatever because, uh, services think, "Oh, you're having some kind of psychotic episode." Um, and I worry about whether sometimes autistic burnout is misunderstood, um, in those professional circles. Now, I don't know that for a fact, but it does... It certainly raises concerns for me with the older generation, particularly those individuals who aren't already identified as autistic.

    5. APAlex Partridge49:47

       Everything we've spoken about, Luke, brings us to this moment. Uh, we spoke about the cost of masking too much, but I think the ultimate cost is, is something a lot deeper, and, and you touched on it a moment ago.

16. 49:58 – 51:27

    Can you mask for so long that you lose yourself?

    1. APAlex Partridge49:58

       Can someone mask so much that they ultimately completely lose themselves?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon50:04

       I don't think it's common, but it's certainly a possibility, and the more you mask, presumably the direct correlation is a higher risk there is longer term of you losing your sense of identity. And I g- And that goes back to what I was saying earlier, that the greater the loss of your identity, the greater risk there is of you making decisions about yourself that might be harmful to you. Um, so it's an ongoing cycle of things going wrong because you're n- because you're, you're in this situation where you're constantly masking, constantly masking, constantly masking, and losing sight of who you are. And I genuinely think there's an absolute direct link between good understanding of self, good decision-making, reduction of risk, reduction of risk to self, the flip side also being the case. If you don't have that good understanding of self and you're constantly masking, then your decisions making about yourself are not necessarily going to be appropriate, which leads to higher risk to wellbeing.

    3. APAlex Partridge50:58

       Yeah. I mean, ask... If, if you don't know who you are, how do you know if, if that job is good for you, or if that relationship is good for you, or that new hobby that you're excited about is really good for you?

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon51:07

       Yeah. And I think... Sorry to interrupt, but I think what often happens if you don't understand that you're autistic, for example, or neurodivergent in general, um, and you are masking and you think that is your genuine authenticity, your decision-making is based on that persona or what you think society thinks about that persona. And if that's not who you are, then those decisions aren't applicable to

17. 51:27 – 57:54

    When the mask becomes your personality

    1. LBDr. Luke Beardon51:27

       you.

    2. APAlex Partridge51:27

       Can the person be so good at masking that even them, even themselves, they confuse their personality with the mask?

    3. LBDr. Luke Beardon51:37

       I think in... I, I suppose in extreme cases, um, the individual literally becomes the mask and make... Longer term, really longer term. And actually, that's a really s- odd... I don't... I have known a couple of individuals like this, again, older individuals in 60s and 70s, whereas if you were to suggest in any way, shape, or form they might be neurodivergent, they would be absolutely blown away and probably refute it till the proverbial cows came home because they're so embedded with this creatio- created personality or created persona they've been so used to engaging with the real world. And for them, it's worked. It's been their s- it's, it's, it's worked. Well, in, in inverted commas, it's worked 'cause they've survived until that time, and that's what they've had to do to get by in life, and actually, their genuine belief is, "That's who I am, and if you were to suggest anything else, there'd be... Oh, no, there's no way I would be able to contemplate that."

    4. APAlex Partridge52:32

       How does someone discover the real them?

    5. LBDr. Luke Beardon52:35

       So, uh, there needs to be a willingness to think about it in the first place. So there has to be motivation. You can't force somebody. If they're, "Right, you need to understand your..." It's like, there's that resistance in terms of motivation. One of the things... This is very non-scientific, but I love it.

    6. APAlex Partridge52:52

       Oh.

    7. LBDr. Luke Beardon52:52

       I genuinely love it, and I've trialed it with... I've... People have fed back and said, "Oh, it was... That's very well." In terms of whether you want to find out if you're... This isn't a fail-safe way of doing things. Um, but just waking up to... Going to go to bed and go, "Right, when I wake up tomorrow, I'm gonna be autistic." Right? So this is slightly tongue in cheek. You're either autistic or you're not. But if you say to yourself, "Tomorrow morning, I'm gonna wake up as an autistic person, and I'm gonna experience tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after that, and the following week as an autistic person," then live it and see how comfortable it is. And it's so surprising how many people are like, "Oh, it all makes sense now." Whereas before, it's that kind of resistance, "Oh no, that's how I need to understand the world. That's how I..." "Oh, actually, if I re-understand the world through this different lens and that feels super comfortable to me, maybe, just maybe, that's my answer."

    8. APAlex Partridge53:50

       So interesting. That's a fascinating example. If someone's listening and they decide to go on this journey that... do that experiment in, in an effort to unmask, I suppose, how frightening can that be, even if it's what the person needs to do?

    9. LBDr. Luke Beardon54:07

       So, uh, it can be incredibly scary because at first... Exposure to the world is incredibly scary. Exposure of authenticity to the world is incredibly scary, especially when it's neurological and you think, "Oh, God, the way in which my brain work is very different to everybody else's, other people will be aghast at the way my brain works, so actually I want... I do want to hide that away." And that's choice. That's a personal thing that some people might be like, "Okay, well, I'm never gonna really show the rest of the world, but I'm gonna choose my moments. I'm gonna choose who my trusted comrades in arms are. I'm gonna choose other neurodivergent individuals whose brain does actually work a bit like mine." And having that ability, it goes back to that choice make- decision-making, um, of choices, knowing when to and where to unmask and to what degree, can be sublimely beneficial to your wellbeing. Because, as I say, masking in some situations might be beneficial t- in terms of, for example, in employment or, or whatever it might be. But picking and choosing it so you don't end up burning out and you don't end up depleting energy, um, but also you have that gorgeous opportunity to be your authentic self in a trusted environment and that safe haven, is just astonishingly gorgeous.

    10. APAlex Partridge55:13

        I spoke to Gina Rippon, and she shared some research that showed that there is evidence now to show that when an autistic person's pattern is interrupted, it causes physical stress. So can the process of unmasking be very stressful because you are taking yourself out of your known pattern?

    11. LBDr. Luke Beardon55:37

        Yeah, and it's out of your comfort zone as well, because you don't know the reaction of what other people are going to be. Um, and actually, it, it... and it, it can go both ways. That's why that sort of level of exposure, some people never get to that point because actually, in hindsight, it's too scary for me, so I think I'll just wait and I'll just be my- myself behind closed doors. Um, and some people genuinely choose to actually engage less with society, um, as a direct result of making that decision, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. So there's a difference between being on your own and being lonely, for example. And some autistic people love being on their own and actually crave being on their own 'cause they can be as authentic as they like, chat to themselves, make a lot of sense, and everything's fine. If you're on your own and you're lonely, that's not a good thing, obviously. Um, so they, they're two very, very different things. Um, but I quite like the idea of what I call global stability. Um, and if you look at... and it, it sort of ties in with what I was talking about earlier in terms of energy. If, if you are globally stable, so you've got really good sets of communication with the person you're with, you've got really good social understanding, so you're socially on the same wavelength, um, you, you, you understand what predict- what is predictable and all of those sorts of things, then change is all of a sudden less scary because you've got so much else that's globally stable for you to rely on. Most autistic people don't have that global stability because they go out into the world and communication is not set up for them, um, social environments are not set up for them, the sensory world is not set up for them. So actually, those additional changes can be too much. It's like that extra pint that made you incredibly sick. Or people always say, don't they, "Oh, you know, I would've been fine for... but it was that last whiskey." And you're just think, "What about the nine pints you had before?"

    12. APAlex Partridge57:15

        [laughs]

    13. LBDr. Luke Beardon57:15

        "Was that anything to do with it? What about the last two decades of your life, did that have anything to do with it?" So you, you can't just take it moment by moment, and that's why I think understanding this concept of global stability is really useful. So if you increase global stability for a n- a neurodivergent individual, um, by creating excellent communication, by not exposing them to social environments that are gonna cause them distress and so on and so forth, all of a sudden, those changes are more likely to be able to be undertaken, um, with less distress at the same time.

    14. APAlex Partridge57:43

        At the start of today's conversation, I asked everyone listening to keep a mental checklist of the signs that we've discussed, and we're gonna circle back to that now. And the sentence that I wanted everyone to look out

18. 57:54 – 1:00:05

    Are you really an introvert — or could you be autistic?

    1. APAlex Partridge57:54

       for was, at what point should someone stop thinking, "Maybe I'm just anxious," or, "Maybe I'm just an introvert," and seriously consider that autism could explain their experience?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon58:03

       That's an amazing question. Um, I think if you've lived a life of thinking one thing, it takes quite a lot of bravery to think something quite fundamentally different. And I think there are a lot of individuals who prefer not to think about being autistic because of the bad press being autistic actually has in common societal parlance. And this goes back to what I was talking about in terms of autistic epistemology and autistic knowledge, or autism-related knowledge and misinformation. So if we live in a society where it's deemed to be somehow bad to be autistic, um, so you are classed as being disordered and inappropriate and having impairments and being in a deficit, those are the neuronormative terms that are used in the diagnostic criteria and in the actual, um, umbrella term of autism s- autistic spectrum disorder. And if even that subliminally filters into your consciousness, which I think it does, it's quite an invidious process. I talk about microaggressions in terms of autistic language, um, in, in terms of that kind of invidious, "Oh, actually, this is chip, chip, chip, chip, chip." And then as an adult, you end up thinking, "Well, being autistic is to be not as good as everybody else." I can totally understand why you might want to resist that.

    3. APAlex Partridge59:25

       Mm.

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon59:25

       But that is not what being autistic is. It's not being a bad human being. It's not being in deficit in my view. It's not a case of having impairments. It's a neurological variance under the umbrella of neurodiversity. And if you buy into that, and then you follow that, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and put on my autism hat or my autism bowler hat, uh, or my autism onesie or my autism socks and just see how comfortable it actually feels," all of a sudden that can be unbelievably revelatory, or so s- so people tell me. And then all of a sudden you start exploring what it means to be y- your genuine, authentic autistic self.

    5. APAlex Partridge59:58

       Gosh, yes, what a fantastic answer. I wanna move on to the most unpredictable, emotional part

19. 1:00:05 – 1:03:17

    The Washing Machine of Woes

    1. APAlex Partridge1:00:05

       of the show, and that's the Washing Machine of Woes, which is where the audience questions are in. And it's called The Washing Machine of Woes 'cause, for me, it serves as a, a bit of a, a public service announcement for anyone listening to empty their machine, because I know many people forget to empty it after the cycle is finished, as do I. Do you do that?

    2. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:00:23

       Um, I love putting the washing out. I hate putting it in.

    3. APAlex Partridge1:00:26

       [laughs]

    4. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:00:27

       Um, 'cause I love going out and listening to podcasts, actually, while I'm hanging the washing-

    5. APAlex Partridge1:00:30

       [laughs]

    6. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:00:31

       ... on the wa- washing line. Um, so yeah.

    7. APAlex Partridge1:00:33

       Brilliant, brilliant. Right, Luke, this week in the Washing Machine of Woes, and it was very obviously autism-specific this week. First question, the first load out of the machine is, if someone could only ask themselves one question to find out whether they're masking autism, what should that be?

    8. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:00:55

       How much effort is it taking to do so, I think. I think it goes back to what I was saying about energy, um, and also talking to other people and saying, "You know, when you talk about masking, do you mean that you're subconsciously adapting your behavior to suit the situation, and that's it, and it doesn't take energy, you don't think about it, and you don't ruminate it?" Um, and asking yourself those questions, "Am I consciously aware I'm doing it? Am I thinking about it? Am I ruminating about it afterwards?" That's more than one question, but they're good questions to ask in terms of, actually, is this genuine masking?

    9. APAlex Partridge1:01:32

       Fantastic. Moving on to the second load out of the machine, what's the one behavior people dismiss as just my personality that immediately makes you wonder if they're actually masking autism?

    10. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:01:43

        I think even asking that question probably might be an indication in and of itself.

    11. APAlex Partridge1:01:47

        Yes. [laughs]

    12. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:01:48

        Um, and I, I would say I, I, I absolutely refuse to talk about autistic behavior 'cause it's so i- idiosyncratic. If you're autistic, presumably every behavior displays is as an autistic person, um, but it's individual to you. So I don't like to talk about autistic behavior as such, but if you're even thinking along those lines, then presumably there may be something in it.

    13. APAlex Partridge1:02:07

        Yes, brilliant answer. Thank you very much, Luke. And finally, the third load out of the machine is, what's something high-masking autistic adults think everybody experiences, but actually isn't typical at all?

    14. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:02:19

        It's exactly that. It's masking.

    15. APAlex Partridge1:02:21

        Yeah. [laughs]

    16. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:02:22

        That, that... The answer is in the question.

    17. APAlex Partridge1:02:23

        Yes. [laughs]

    18. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:02:23

        I don't know if that was deliberate, but I, I think, honestly, there are so many people who go around masking assuming that everybody else is doing the same thing.

    19. APAlex Partridge1:02:30

        Mm.

    20. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:02:31

        Um, and actually, again, I've used the word revelatory, but I think it can be incredibly eye-opening when you've discover that's not how most people live their lives.

    21. APAlex Partridge1:02:40

        Yes. Fantastic, and I thought everyone practiced their smile in the mirror before a party. Maybe they do. [laughs] This has been fantastic. Just before we close, Luke, I've got a surprise for you. I wanna deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest. Every single guest writes a letter to their younger self, and I always deliver the letter to the next guest, which obviously today is yourself.

    22. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:03:03

        What an amazing idea.

    23. APAlex Partridge1:03:05

        If you could kindly read that out loud, Luke.

    24. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:03:07

        Is this gonna make me cry?

    25. APAlex Partridge1:03:09

        We'll see. We'll see.

    26. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:03:10

        Um, it'd be, it'd be good, good footage if it is. Uh, th- things like this, I can almost guarantee it will make me cry. Okay. "Hello,

20. 1:03:17 – 1:04:36

    A Letter to My Younger Self

    1. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:03:17

       little..." Oh, it's got me already.

    2. APAlex Partridge1:03:18

       [laughs]

    3. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:03:19

       Uh, "Hello, little one. I know you're exhausted, not because you're being yourself, but because you're trying so hard not to be. You spent years believing that if you could just smile a little more, say the right thing, and hide the parts of you that feel different, people would finally accept you, but the truth is there was never anything wrong with you. You were simply surviving in a world that taught you to hide. One day you'll stop asking, 'What's wrong with me?' And you'll start asking, 'Who am I underneath all of this?' That question will change your life because underneath the mask isn't someone broken. Uh, it's someone worth knowing, so be brave enough to let people meet the real you. The right people won't love the version you performed for. They'll love the version that finally stops pretending. Love, your older self."

    4. APAlex Partridge1:04:11

       Amazing. That made you emot- emotional.

    5. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:04:14

       Why wouldn't it?

    6. APAlex Partridge1:04:15

       Yeah. Gosh. Do you relate to that?

    7. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:04:18

       Um, do I relate to that? I'll have to process it and get back to you.

    8. APAlex Partridge1:04:21

       Yeah. Gosh, it's phenomenal, and a lovely tone to finish on. Luke, on behalf of everybody listening and watching grappling to understand their brains, thank you so much.

    9. LBDr. Luke Beardon1:04:31

       Thank you very much indeed. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:04:36