Millie Mackintosh Dissects Late ADHD diagnosis

Millie Mackintosh 0:00 People with ADHD can struggle with self-esteem issues

Alex Partridge 0:04 Millie Mackintosh

Millie Mackintosh 0:05 The former star of reality TV series Made In Chelsea One of my triggers for my anxiety is meeting new people. I'd gone from having panic attacks every few weeks to every few days to I developed really intense, um, health anxiety, and every day I thought I was dying. Bit of a breakdown, but also a breakthrough because I got to the point where I was like, "Okay, I need to look after my health in a different way." Then when I got my ADHD diagnosis as well, understanding that I am more prone to burnout than your average non-neurodivergent person is helping me to have, like, more self-compassion and to understand that it's okay to slow down. You know, your worth isn't your productivity, and it's okay to do a bit less.

Alex Partridge 0:45 With the understanding of ADHD that you have now, what would you tell the younger version of yourself?

Millie Mackintosh 0:51 I would say

Alex Partridge 0:53 This episode is dedicated to anyone who has recently bought a notebook and genuinely believes it will solve all their problems. [relaxing music]

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Millie Mackintosh 3:28 Thank you for having me.

Alex Partridge 3:30 As always, I want to start the episode by revealing your ADHD item. Every episode, I ask my guest to tell me an item that most represents ADHD for them, and yours is hidden under that cloth. I'm gonna reveal it straightaway.

Millie Mackintosh 3:42 Okay. There we go.

Alex Partridge 3:45 [laughs] Now, people will probably recognize that as the, uh, the, the logo for the notes app on the phone. Um, I've got my suspicions, but we'll talk about that a little later on.

Millie Mackintosh 3:56 Okay.

Alex Partridge 3:58 We have an opening tradition on the podcast, Millie, um, where I ask the guest the same question, and I don't want to break that tradition, so I'll ask you the question

Alex Partridge 4:08 now. What was your earliest memory of feeling different?

Millie Mackintosh 4:12 I think it was at school when... I'm trying to think how old I was. I was diagnosed with dyspraxia, um, which actually a lot of people who have, um, ADHD actually have dyslexia or dyspraxia 'cause it's part of that, like, neurodivergent-

Alex Partridge 4:30 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 4:31 ... um, spectrum. And I got diagnosed with that, but they didn't spot the ADHD. Um, and I just remember feeling like I didn't really fit in at school.

Alex Partridge 4:42 Did you find it easy to make friends when you were that age?

Millie Mackintosh 4:45 I had one best friend, and we were super close, and then she moved to America suddenly, um, during, like, the holidays, some kind of, like, family thing. And it was a shock 'cause I didn't know that was gonna happen, and I took it r- Like, I remember it r- really was, like, a big blow. And I struggled to make, to make friends after that because all the kind of friendship groups were formed. Uh, and I actually ended up going to five schools and kind of hating a lot of it.

Alex Partridge 5:18 Moving from school to school, that must have had quite an impact on your sort of sense of stability. Do you remember if that had a, a, a negative effect on your mental health at the time?

Millie Mackintosh 5:28 It definitely did. I think I thought... Well, there was, like, different reasons. Like, one, went to a boarding school when I was 10, and then that only went up to age 12, and then I went to another school which I actually started to really enjoy, and I felt like I was kind of coming out of my shell. I was about 12, 11, 12, and then that school went into liquidation, like, just closed down really suddenly. So then I had to join a new school, like, halfway through t- like, halfway through the term. That was really hard-

Alex Partridge 5:58 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 5:58 ... 'cause, again, the friendship groups were there. I felt like an outsider, and I was quite badly bullied at that one. And I thought, "Okay, girls are awful. I'll go to a mixed school for sixth form, and that will be better." And it wasn't. [laughs] So yeah, lots of schools, and I think the moving around, uh, was really difficult for me, yeah.

Alex Partridge 6:18 In your teenage years, I mean, that- that's quite a rollercoaster ride for anybody. Um, given what you sort of might know about ADHD, can you look back and see ADHD presenting itself through those years? And did you feel when you were a teenager that you were different in any way from your peers?

Millie Mackintosh 6:37 As a teenager, I desperately wanted to fit in. I wanted to, um, kind of overcome the bullying that had been g- quite, um, intense at the beginning of my teens. And so I kind of learnt to find, pretend to find them funny as a way of fitting in, and I kind of became like the class clown and was always kind of getting in trouble, and then discovered alcohol, which I thought was really fun, and [laughs]

Alex Partridge 7:11 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 7:11 S- yeah, and then I just was trying to fit in, you know, kind of doing what teenagers do.

Alex Partridge 7:17 Do you remember what they were bullying you for?

Millie Mackintosh 7:19 Um, it was a lot of appearance-based things, and I know people with, uh, ADHD can, you know, struggle with, uh, self-esteem issues. I've had, I have body dysmorphia. I've had that since I was quite young. Can't remember when that started, but probably around the time I was bullied. But I was bullied for, yeah, being, um... I had, like, a growth spurt and had very long limbs and was, but was very thin and was kind of picked on for that, like being, um... I guess 'cause I had the dyspraxia and I had, like, extra time in my exams and maybe it was like that side of it. I had glasses, I had braces, I had acne. But they were just really picking on me for my appearance, but then once I started figuring out that I could change my appearance with makeup and dyeing my hair and, like, changing how I looked, and then I realized I could get attention from boys, um, I guess searching for that dopamine.

Alex Partridge 8:23 Hmm. If y- at that time as well, you were having this horrendous time at, at school, what was your relationship like with your parents? And since your diagnosis, has that changed in any way?

Millie Mackintosh 8:33 My relationship with my parents, as a teen, I was at boarding school hating it, angry at them for putting me in the school. Um, so I was kind of like, "It's me against them," that kind of mentality.

Alex Partridge 8:48 Hmm.

Millie Mackintosh 8:48 Didn't want, I didn't want to tell them things. And they also, I guess, were not, didn't f- have, didn't find it very easy to talk about emotions and talk about, like, what was really going on.

Alex Partridge 9:03 Hmm.

Millie Mackintosh 9:04 So I wasn't super close with my parents as a teen. I didn't tell them everything, didn't tell them a lot of things. And now my, I've got my diagnosis, um, they're really supportive. My mum actually, uh, has been listening to some of your episodes and I've, we've been, like, kind of sharing books, and she's learning more about it. But when I first told her, um, I was gonna do, get, get tested and that my therapist thought I had it, she took it quite badly. She got quite upset. She, like, "But darling, why do you need to know?" Like, well, you know, "What's it gonna change?" And, you know, I think she thought maybe I was, like, there was some feeling of, like, resentment that I wasn't diagnosed, but I didn't feel like that at all. It... Like, how would they have known? Because I didn't have those, like, t- stereotypical traits that you, that so many of us-

Alex Partridge 9:54 Hmm

Millie Mackintosh 9:54 ... kind of are brought up thinking, okay, it's not y- you, I think you tend to think it's gonna be a boy, they're gonna be very disruptive, maybe a bit aggressive. So I didn't kind of fit the, the, the mold. Uh, so my mum took it quite badly, but now I've kind of explained it to her, and I think she gets it, that it's not, it's actually very validating and helpful for me, and potentially, you know, she might have it, too. She's, we have a lot of similar traits.

Alex Partridge 10:21 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 10:22 So, I m- I can't speak for her.

Alex Partridge 10:23 Hmm.

Millie Mackintosh 10:24 But, um, I think she's finding it interesting to, to learn more about it.

Alex Partridge 10:28 I'm so pleased, firstly, that there's been some positive movement in, in, in your mum's sort of understanding of the diagnosis. It's, it's very common, this, uh, prejudice, this internal prejudice some people have, um, particularly across generations, where there's misunderstanding or just lack of awareness, like you alluded to. It's, it's, "Oh, it's only boys who are-"

Millie Mackintosh 10:51 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:51 ... "running around and, and causing the problems." Um, so you get, you know, a, a lady, a woman goes to their parents with a diagnosis and, and it's sometimes dismissed at, at first.

Millie Mackintosh 11:01 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 11:01 Um, masking is a big topic in the community, and it's, it's, it's one of the big misconceptions I like to debunk, that people with ADHD don't work hard. Um, I think with masking-

Millie Mackintosh 11:14 Hmm

Alex Partridge 11:14 ... uh, I think it's such a hidden workload. It's this sort of constant need, feeling that you need to adjust who you are, change your entire personality to be more palatable, likable for whoever you're with, with at any given moment, and it's so hard work. It's so exhausting.

Alex Partridge 11:33 Do you think you've masked in your life, and in what way do you think you've masked?

Millie Mackintosh 11:40 I think I definitely have. I think, I've been, I've been listening to some of your, um, other episodes, and I think women often feel like you don't wanna be too much.

Alex Partridge 11:48 Hmm.

Millie Mackintosh 11:48 You don't wanna be... Like, you kind of wanna keep yourself small to, like, protect yourself. And, but then sometimes I've definitely overshared, and then really, like, regretted it afterwards or been, like, in my head a lot about it, like, "Gosh, should I have said that?"

Alex Partridge 12:06 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 12:07 I find myself wanting to go, wanting to go there. Like, I hate small talk.

Alex Partridge 12:11 Hmm.

Millie Mackintosh 12:11 I find it so boring. I want interesting conversation. Again, looking for the, for the dopamine hits where you can. So, like, being at, you know, a social occasion where you're stuck in, like, small talk is, like, one of my worst things.

Alex Partridge 12:24 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 12:24 I hate it. Um, I, I think I'm understanding more now, um, that I don't have to mask it, and actually I've carved out a career path like so many people, um, with ADHD do where, um, I'm entrepreneurial. I do... I've g- doing my own thing. I'm on my own schedule. I don't have a boss, and I feel very lucky that I've been able to do that and kind of create... I think I've created, like, a career for myself that feels-

Alex Partridge 12:52 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 12:53 ... um, that I feel comfortable with because of my ADHD, and it's, and it's really driven me.

Alex Partridge 12:58 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 12:58 It's really given me that drive to succeed and to... You know, 'cause my brain is very fast-paced, I think I'm also attracted to other people who are neurodiv- neurodivergent as friends and as, um, people that I wanna work with.

Alex Partridge 13:14 It's amazing that you've been on that journey. Um, the oversharing thing is ve- it's very... It's, it's, it's very common, because you do feel like you're too much, so you hold it back, but then sometimes it does come out.

Millie Mackintosh 13:26 [laughs] It just comes out. You're like, "Ah."

Alex Partridge 13:27 You're at a party, [laughs] and you've gone straight in with the childhood trauma or-

Millie Mackintosh 13:30 Oh, yeah

Alex Partridge 13:31 ... whatever it might be, and then you walk away and you think, "Oh, my God, they think I'm too much and now hate me, and I can never speak to that person again." [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 13:38 Yeah, yeah, and you wake up in the middle of the night, like, three nights later, and you're just, like-

Alex Partridge 13:41 Yeah. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 13:42 ... thinking about it over and... Or you, or you suddenly have a memory of a time you've done it, like, 10 years before.

Alex Partridge 13:47 Yes.

Millie Mackintosh 13:47 And you're like, "Why am I thinking about that?" [laughs]

Alex Partridge 13:48 Yeah, yeah. I think having that, it c- it can create a, a sort of a phobia, if you like, of, of acting that way again, which I think that then you snap the mask on. 'Cause you go to another party, and you're like, "Oh, I've had that evidence now of what happens if I overshare, so I'm gonna put the mask on. I'm gonna be well-behaved. I'm not gonna do anything that's gonna make me anxious." And I think that is really damaging to someone's self-awareness, their, their, their image of themselves, their understanding of, of being confident enough to be themselves. Do you think masking in your life has, has taken its toll, or do you think you've paid a toll in terms of your own self-confidence?

Millie Mackintosh 14:28 I think I've definitely noticed one of the... one of my triggers for my anxiety is meeting new people. I think it's, like, instantly that hypervigilance of, are they gonna like me? Are they g- am I gonna be... Are they gonna be my kind of person? Are they gonna be like my people or not?

Alex Partridge 14:44 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 14:44 And you know instantly, I think, when you meet people, um, whether you hit it off or not.

Alex Partridge 14:49 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 14:49 Like, whether... Maybe it's whether they're neurodivergent or not, or it's neurospicy or-

Alex Partridge 14:54 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 14:54 ... neurobeige. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 14:56 Yeah, absolutely. I think we've... A lot of people with ADHD have this sort of heightened intuition. Um, you, you can pick up on people's micro facial expressions, micro mannerisms. Some even-

Millie Mackintosh 15:07 It's like an essence of, of... Yeah, just how someone is-

Alex Partridge 15:10 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 15:10 ... like, even standing, like, p- holding themselves.

Alex Partridge 15:14 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 15:14 I think-

Alex Partridge 15:14 It fees- it feeds into the pattern recognition, I think, 'cause we ha- I think we've been exposed to so many negative criticisms and corrections because we are intrinsically a bit different to what society expects people to behave like. So we've been corrected so many times and, and our pattern recognition spots that in others. So when we see someone who is not on our side, we're hyper-aware, and we can-

Millie Mackintosh 15:36 Mm

Alex Partridge 15:36 ... see that red flag where I think other people who might not have that hyperawareness miss. Do you think you've got that hyperawareness, that intuition to see someone who is gonna be in your tribe?

Millie Mackintosh 15:50 I think so, yeah. I... Yeah, I do have a hyperawareness of people, and I feel like I've also got, like, a strong almost, like, hazard perception-

Alex Partridge 15:59 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 16:00 ... that's on all the time. That... And that can be quite exhausting, and sometimes being like, is it accurate or not? Or am I... Have I just got-

Alex Partridge 16:09 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 16:09 ... anxiety about that, that person over there is a bit sketchy, and is that all in my head? And, you know, the intrusive thoughts.

Alex Partridge 16:18 Yes, there's, there's a degree of imposter syndrome there as well. You have this ability, but you don't always trust it. You don't listen to it.

Millie Mackintosh 16:24 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 16:24 Um, particularly from many people I've spoken to in the community when it comes to, to choosing romantic partners, you're so good at spotting red flags in others except when it comes to... [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 16:34 Yeah. [laughs] Very true.

Alex Partridge 16:36 I wanna get onto relationships

Alex Partridge 16:37 a little later on.

Millie Mackintosh 16:38 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 16:38 Um, but do you think there's a good feeling that comes with masking, um, and being good at it?

Millie Mackintosh 16:45 I think in certain situations, it is just necessary, um, in a kind of just to be professional or to just when you're kind of being considerate of making other people comfortable.

Alex Partridge 16:54 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 16:56 But it can, um, also be really exhausting. Like, for a while last year, I was heading towards burnout but didn't, didn't n- take enough notice of the signs, and I was, you know, going to work, and I was not okay, but I was able to go to work and appear okay. And when I got home, I would be, you know, on the floor having a panic attack and, um, unable to stop crying and just basically completely breaking down. But then the next day, I would go to work again and put the mask on.

Alex Partridge 17:27 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 17:28 And I just got to a point where I couldn't put it back on.

Alex Partridge 17:32 You mentioned your early signs of burnout that you ignored. Do, do you know... Do you recognize what those are now, your early signs?

Millie Mackintosh 17:40 Um, it's, like, noticing, like, when... if I feel anxious, and I, I ca- I'm on medication, so my anxiety might not go from zero to 100, but I... You know, it would kind of be more moderate.

Alex Partridge 17:50 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 17:50 And I can c- I can notice it and know what it is and not spiral, um, like, combined with therapy as well. And it's noticing, like, when I get those... I can get quite physical symptoms of anxiety like chest pain or palpitations or, um... Yeah, d- I feel it in my body, and I know now. I'm like, "Okay, that's not just a random pain." Like, that pain is anxiety. That's, like, energy. That's where it's- Just currently, like that's-

Alex Partridge 18:20 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 18:20 ... where you're feeling it. So it's, it's not ignoring that and, um, being like, "Okay, why is it, why is it happening?" Like, okay, I've just had a five-hour meeting. Was that, like, good for my health? Like, and no, like, I was totally overwhelmed, but I kept being like, "Just, it's fine, just-"

Alex Partridge 18:37 Yeah

Millie Mackintosh 18:38 ... people pleaser. Like, it's, just got to be super productive. But then afterwards noting that and being like, "Okay, next time I'm, I'm gonna say I can't do a five-hour meeting. It needs to be split into two halves and we need a break in the middle." And-

Alex Partridge 18:50 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 18:50 ... I'm trying to notice, and, like, doing, like, really long shoot days, I can feel very anxious at the end of the day. So it's like, okay, I need to factor in some breaks. I need to do some breathwork. I need to, you know, think about what I can do holistically to help combat those big days. Um, and just being okay with resting. It's very hard for me to relax. I actually find it almost impossible to relax unless I'm being, like, [laughs] physically made to relax with something like a massage.

Alex Partridge 19:19 Right. Yeah. Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 19:20 Just switch off my brain. I don't know about you.

Alex Partridge 19:24 So I, exercise has been a big, big one for me.

Millie Mackintosh 19:27 Mm.

Alex Partridge 19:27 Um, just taking a pause, going for a walk, walking my dog, uh, going for a run in the morning. If I'm not able to do that, uh, just doing some kind of YouTube video in the flat.

Millie Mackintosh 19:37 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 19:37 Um, movement, I think, is such a, like a reset, um-

Millie Mackintosh 19:41 Totally

Alex Partridge 19:41 ... if you're able to do it. That, that, um, five-hour meeting, bloody hell [laughs] . That, that's, that's, like, that's, um ... It's that h- hard work that's going on behind the scenes with people with ADHD, I think that, that is invisible to everyone, apart from yourself, the person who's experiencing it. It's the anxiety, it's the-

Millie Mackintosh 20:01 The voices. The voices in my head were, like, too, it was so exhausting all the time. It was like I was fighting this battle that nobody could see. On the outside, you know, no one would have any idea the amount of work that was going into just appearing okay.

Alex Partridge 20:18 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 20:18 Um, and I'm on the other side of that now. I have it a lot less, and it, for anyone that copes with that on a daily basis, it takes, it does take a lot of strength to, um ... You're just, you're doing a lot of work in the, in the background. I think someone explained it like you see, like, a s- a swan, like, gliding along the water. It looks, like, so serene, but then, like, underwater, it's, like-

Alex Partridge 20:40 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 20:40 ... peddling its feet really hard.

Alex Partridge 20:42 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 20:42 And that's, like, the bit that people don't see.

Alex Partridge 20:44 Yeah. The sort of, the, the silent camouflaged work that no one else sees. And when you had that burnout, that, that moment where you, where you realized you had, you'd gone o- you'd gone past the warning signs and you had gone into full-blown burnout, like, what did that look like? I suppose firstly, what did it, from your point of view, what do you think it looked like?

Millie Mackintosh 21:06 Um, I'd gone from having panic attacks every few weeks to every few days to daily. Um, I developed really intense, um, health anxiety, and every day, at some point of the day, I felt, I thought I was dying, and really felt like, it felt very real and very scary. Um, I developed a fear of eating. I, um, that was vi- I choked on, this happened around the same time, while I was eating, and then I kind of had this, like, hyperawareness of, of eating and the sensation of swallowing, and I became, I kind of developed a phobia of, of choking again. So I was, like, terrified of food, living on smoothies. Like, just was not [laughs] not a good time. Um, there was a lot, yeah, the, it kind of was, like, one of those ones where it was a bit of a snowball, and just a bit of a spiral into feeling, um, really in a bad place. And I guess, yeah, bit of a breakdown, but also a breakthrough because I got to the point where I was like, "Okay, I need to look after my health in a different way." And I hadn't been diagnosed then with ADHD. I got diagnosed with panic disorder, um, generalized panic, generalized anxiety disorder. Um, I have some past, like, trauma stuff. And, um, I'd been living with anxiety for a lot of my adult life, and then probably for a while, some, um, you know, kind of high-functioning depression.

Alex Partridge 22:40 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 22:40 They go hand in hand. So understanding all of that was really helpful. Then when I got my, um, ADH- ADHD diagnosis as well, it's like how much of that anxiety was for the ADHD and, um, understanding that I am prone, more prone to burnout than your average person or your non, neurodivergent person, uh, is, is helping me to have, like, more self-compassion and to, um, yeah, to understand that, um, it's okay to slow down, and it, and you don't have to be... Like, you know, your worth isn't your productivity, and it's okay to do a bit less, and it, it doesn't make you lazy. And I don't have to have my diary completely full every hour, every minute. So I'm, I'm a, I'm a doer. I'm like, I make things happen. Um, so [laughs] I'm just, like, rambling.

Alex Partridge 23:36 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 23:36 Does any of this, um, sound familiar to you?

Alex Partridge 23:39 Oh, it sounds spot on. You know, the mis- the mis- the diagnosis of anxiety. I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety as a disor- disorder when I was 16. Um, I've sp- uh, the pe- how many people I've spoken to who have had that diagnosis of anxiety first, and it's the anxiety which takes them to care-

Millie Mackintosh 23:57 Mm-hmm

Alex Partridge 23:57 ... first, um, because the ADHD hasn't been spotted. And it's that, um, that's, you know, the seven highly caffeinated squirrels barreling around in your head that cause, that comes from the ADHD-

Millie Mackintosh 24:09 Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:09 ... but that manifests in anxiety, which takes you to the GP, the doctor, and then you get the anxiety disorder. Then it's often years later, you realize-

Millie Mackintosh 24:17 Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:17 ... that the anxiety is a symptom of the ADHD.

Alex Partridge 24:21 So when you got that ADHD diagnosis- How did you feel when, when the, when you were told?

Millie Mackintosh 24:28 I was happy. I was like, "Yes!" And I got a really high score.

Alex Partridge 24:32 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 24:33 And it, from the, from the test when you have to, like, click when you can see the, like, the same shape or the same color.

Alex Partridge 24:40 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 24:40 I can't remember what it was called. There was different parts of the test that I did. Um, but I got a very high score in, in that part.

Alex Partridge 24:47 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 24:47 So I was like, "Yes!" 'Cause I never got high, I never got-

Alex Partridge 24:49 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 24:49 ... good-

Alex Partridge 24:50 Passed with flying colors.

Millie Mackintosh 24:51 Yeah, passed with flying colors.

Alex Partridge 24:52 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 24:52 I was like, "Yes, I've got it and I've got it."

Alex Partridge 24:54 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 24:54 I've done really well at having it. And it was really validating. I was like, it just made sense, and it's led me down, you know, it's led me here. It's led me to, um, want to learn a lot more about it, and I am, you know, listening to podcasts, um, you know, having conversations with people. Realizing a lot of people that I know actually have it, and I've got like a w- um, got a WhatsApp group with a few other women, um, and we just share, like, share memes and sometimes ask each other advice.

Alex Partridge 25:24 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 25:24 And that's, that feels nice.

Alex Partridge 25:25 That must be so helpful to have a group who you trust, who you know, that you can just bounce ideas off and, and share sort of r- you know, relatable stories and... It's almost like a tribe within a WhatsApp group, I suppose.

Millie Mackintosh 25:37 Exactly.

Alex Partridge 25:37 And ADHD sometimes goes hand-in-hand with impulsivity.

Millie Mackintosh 25:42 Oh, yeah.

Alex Partridge 25:43 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 25:43 I've got that, for sure.

Alex Partridge 25:45 Have there been occasions where your impulsivity has got you into any trouble?

Millie Mackintosh 25:51 I have, I would say I'm a bit of an impulse spender.

Alex Partridge 25:55 Likewise. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 25:57 And it just, I think it's that dopamine hit.

Alex Partridge 25:59 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 26:00 I, um, booked a trip to the Maldives for us as a family, and, like, didn't tell Hugo.

Alex Partridge 26:06 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 26:07 [laughs] I didn't, I just booked it, and then I was like, "Oh, by the way, thought we could do this for my birthday." Um, and it was amazing, and I'm so glad we did it, but that, you know, it kind of wasn't a very responsible thing to do.

Alex Partridge 26:20 How long was there between the idea of going to Maldives and you booking the holiday?

Millie Mackintosh 26:24 Probably a few days.

Alex Partridge 26:25 Right. Okay.

Millie Mackintosh 26:26 And I booked it while we were already on holiday somewhere else.

Alex Partridge 26:29 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 26:31 [laughs] 'Cause, like, my brain is, I find it very hard to even just be where I am.

Alex Partridge 26:37 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 26:37 Be present. Because I'm, like, and that's something I'm working on, rather than, like, already being in the ne- you know, I love-

Alex Partridge 26:45 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 26:45 I've realized I love, don't know if you do this, I love making plans, and luckily that was a plan that did work out. But I often, I'm, like, really keen making plans, and then when it comes to following through with the plan, I, I wanna get out of it. Or I find it really hard to, say it's like, for example, a trip to the theater or something, I wanna leave halfway through.

Alex Partridge 27:06 Yes. It's so relatable. It, it's more fun making the plan than it is actually following through with the plan.

Millie Mackintosh 27:11 Yes.

Alex Partridge 27:11 I, I joke with my, my partner.

Millie Mackintosh 27:13 Much more fun.

Alex Partridge 27:13 I say, "Do you wanna go out for dinner tonight?" I get really excited. I book a table, and then we're in the taxi to the restaurant, and I've lost interest in going out for dinner. [laughs] And obviously-

Millie Mackintosh 27:20 Haven't even had the food

Alex Partridge 27:21 ... haven't had the food.

Millie Mackintosh 27:22 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 27:22 Or like you said, cinema or a theater. The idea of doing it is so exciting. I book the tickets. I'm so, like, I travel to the theater.

Millie Mackintosh 27:30 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 27:30 And the curtains come up, and I'm like, "I wanna go." [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 27:33 [laughs] I feel so bad. I'm like, and Hugo's, Hugo knows me so well, and he'll, he'll just be looking at me, being like, "You wanna go, don't you?"

Alex Partridge 27:39 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 27:40 And I'm like, "No." Um, but yeah, halfway through I'm like, "Okay, I'm leaving at the interval for sure."

Alex Partridge 27:45 Yeah. It's like they, there's that Mount Everest summit theory where if you're, like, an entrepreneur and you're, uh, it's the moment just before you sell the business or the moment just before you complete the marathon that you get the biggest dopamine.

Millie Mackintosh 27:56 Really?

Alex Partridge 27:57 When you actually cross the finish line and, and, and get what you were going for, that's actually a really low point, 'cause it's the, it's the process of planning and, and taking steps to do it that actually fires us up.

Millie Mackintosh 28:10 Yeah, I love-

Alex Partridge 28:10 Not actually doing it

Millie Mackintosh 28:10 ... I love planning.

Alex Partridge 28:12 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 28:12 Like, planning, I've just managed a renovation, um, and found that stressful but rewarding. Planning my daughter's birthday party currently. But I get, yeah, I love being in a plan.

Alex Partridge 28:24 Mm. I think ADHD is on a, is, is a prism of, of s- s- of strengths and, and challenges. I think, you know, if you Google ADHD, it will, it's quite a pessimistic-

Millie Mackintosh 28:35 Mm

Alex Partridge 28:35 ... view. It will say, "Struggle with focus, struggle with planning, struggle with organization." It's, it's all struggle, struggle, and more struggle.

Millie Mackintosh 28:42 But then I think I'm very, I'm very organized, but then is that just a coping mechanism? Like, I don't have the lateness thing.

Alex Partridge 28:50 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 28:50 Heard you talk about it like a buffet, and it's like everyone's gonna go up to the buffet and pick something-

Alex Partridge 28:55 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 28:55 ... and have so- and have something, a different plate of food.

Alex Partridge 28:59 Before you were, you were on time, um, but you, because this studio is in a complicated place and you had had a momentary, um, I, I took five minutes to find you.

Millie Mackintosh 29:10 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 29:10 And the first thing you said was you hate being late.

Millie Mackintosh 29:12 Mm.

Alex Partridge 29:13 Um, I'm the same. I hate being late, and I question why that is. I think it's because I essentially was taught from a young age that being late is very bad. Do you think there's a reason why you hate being late?

Millie Mackintosh 29:28 Think it's, like, um, not wanting to upset anyone, but also I get very fixated on things going exactly to plan. And I g- and I've noticed that I can get very, um, upset if, if things don't, don't go to plan, which often [laughs] in life they don't.

Alex Partridge 29:46 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 29:46 I'm like, I feel safe in the plan as it-

Alex Partridge 29:49 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 29:49 ... as it was, as it's been, like, as I've mentally prepared for it. And then if I've got a, a day of back-to-back things and it starts, starts running late, I can find that really stressful.

Alex Partridge 29:59 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 30:01 But, and I hate the feeling of being late for someone.

Alex Partridge 30:04 Yeah. Yeah, no, me too. It's absolutely, um, um, just the idea of... I'm always h- like, early, predictably early.

Millie Mackintosh 30:11 I'm always early, but then I think that's, like, anxiety makes you early.

Alex Partridge 30:14 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 30:15 Do you wake up before your alarm?

Alex Partridge 30:17 Oh, yes. Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 30:18 I wake up-

Alex Partridge 30:18 Yeah

Millie Mackintosh 30:18 ... five minutes before my alarm goes off, or, like, 15 minutes before.

Alex Partridge 30:22 What, just subconsciously you-

Millie Mackintosh 30:23 Yes. Like, always, if I set an alarm, I'll be awake before the alarm then- I heard someone say that could be... That's like a, a sign of someone that's like high functioning [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:34 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 30:35 ... depressed person, because you're just, like, so hypervigilant all the time.

Alex Partridge 30:39 You think there's some event in your early years that have caused this sort of hypervigilance to being punctual?

Millie Mackintosh 30:46 I don't know. I mean, I th- I- my dad's always early, like, we're always, like, very, like, early for flights.

Alex Partridge 30:51 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 30:51 And I mean, I st- I love having loads of time in the airport. My husband finds it really annoying. I'm like, "I just want time." I don't know, even know what I'm gonna do with it yet, but I just, I don't wanna be in a rush.

Alex Partridge 31:01 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 31:01 I don't like being rushed. Um, but yeah, but I think being early is ve- is a good habit. But some people with ADHD find time management really difficult and will often be late.

Alex Partridge 31:10 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 31:11 So it's interesting how different people take different things from it, or it can be, like, completely opposite.

Alex Partridge 31:15 Through the prism of ADHD, what would you sort of say are your strengths and challenges?

Millie Mackintosh 31:23 Okay, I would say my challenges are being prone to burnout, um, saying yes, being a people pleaser, saying, like, saying yes when I wanna say no. I'm definitely working on that. Um, just being in my head too much, overthinking.

Alex Partridge 31:43 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 31:45 Um, but yeah, worrying. Ov- like, overthinking and worrying about things that are out of my control, which I'm working on, and yeah, not being so great at being in the present. And my strengths are, I'd say, like, the planning or being very organized, um, being early, being very in, uh, in touch with my feelings, being very open. And I think there is a strength in being vulnerable, and I've really realized through, like, having a presence on social media and h- changing how I use my platform over the years, that kind of sharing these vulnerabilities and these, uh, challenges, that in the media or if you Google it, can, you know, seem like something that's, uh, could negatively impact you, and it definitely can. But talking about it, um, just, you know, spreading awareness and breaking down stigma I think is really important.

Alex Partridge 32:39 Mm.

Alex Partridge 32:40 What does it feel like, then, when someone picks you up or shines a light on one of your weaknesses?

Millie Mackintosh 32:47 Not great. [laughs] Um, I mean, it happens when you're, especially if you're in the public eye and you're gonna put yourself out there. People, uh, love to have an opinion and are totally entitled to, but it can be hard when there's a platform and people can literally tell you what they think of you-

Alex Partridge 33:07 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 33:07 ... but without you seeing them. I'm learning to be, you know, have a kind of thicker skin with that. And I've been, you know, I've been in the public eye for quite a long time, so I think you k- you do kind of build up a resilience to seeing those comments and just not, um, not letting it affect you.

Alex Partridge 33:28 Are you familiar with the term RSD?

Millie Mackintosh 33:31 I actually wanna... I, I think I've heard of you t- I think I've heard you talk about it on other episodes.

Alex Partridge 33:37 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 33:37 And I want to know more about it. Is this this, like, oversensitivity to things?

Alex Partridge 33:41 Essentially, yes. So RSD, it stands for Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria.

Millie Mackintosh 33:46 Okay.

Alex Partridge 33:46 And it's a visceral, physiological response to criticisms-

Millie Mackintosh 33:52 Okay

Alex Partridge 33:52 ... uh, and rejections, or even perceived criticisms or rejections. And the, the, the academics I've had on the podcast suggest it is actually more a trauma response based off the fact that we have been exposed to, uh, so many more micro-criticisms throughout our life because we are a little bit different. So as we're an a- an adult and we're exposed to a, a criticism, we're sort of primed to, to react quite, um, defensively, and it can manifest through sort of internalized sadness or internalized or externalized rage. Um, does any of that ring true?

Millie Mackintosh 34:25 Yes, definitely. I think, uh, discovering actually through kind of becoming a mother, that feeling, um, of rage and th- and realizing that is within me, and things that can, that can trigger it. I think it's like feeling, uh, misunderstood-

Alex Partridge 34:47 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 34:47 ... or feeling, um, like you're not being heard. And, uh, I have, yeah, I have definitely found it hard if someone's criticized, um, something like me as a mother or, you know, there's certain... There's, people can say a l- a lot of different things, and there'll be one or two things that can, that can really hurt.

Alex Partridge 35:06 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 35:06 But through therapy, it's really helped me understanding that only time someone can hurt you is if they're saying something that you believe to be true about yourself. So, you know, kind of doing a lot of, uh, CBT has been really helpful.

Alex Partridge 35:20 Mm. I think the RSD is particularly painful when, when the comment is, it, it hits something that you sort of intrinsically deep down know to be true. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 35:31 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:31 It's, it, it-

Millie Mackintosh 35:31 Or, yeah, already have believed about yourself for a long time or-

Alex Partridge 35:34 Yes

Millie Mackintosh 35:35 ... yeah, like-

Alex Partridge 35:35 When it sort of hits a, an insecurity that is there-

Millie Mackintosh 35:39 Mm

Alex Partridge 35:39 ... um, or even one that you know is there and you've, you've, you're, you've tried so hard to mask it.

Millie Mackintosh 35:45 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:45 And then someone points it out, and it's almost like, uh, they've seen through the mask, and your effort has, has gone to waste a bit. I think if you look back throughout your life with this understanding of RSD, although it might be limited, the understanding at the moment, can you s- can you see RSD presenting itself in, in various stages of your life?

Millie Mackintosh 36:10 I definitely, you know, found it very hard to be criticized when I was bullied. Um, it did really affect my self-esteem and, you know, it created lots of limiting self-beliefs that I've carried with me for a lot of my life. Um, a lot of, like, shame, um, guilt, those kind of feelings that, uh, I work on now. But I think I feel in a good place at the moment that if- You know, somebody's gonna insult you and it, if it is, if it does hurt, then it's, it's just something I can take to therapy. Like, great, it's like showing me a wound-

Alex Partridge 36:47 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 36:47 ... it's showing me somewhere I need to heal. So seeing it as actually something that's useful for healing and being like, "Okay, thank you for that. Now I know I need to do some work there," and use it in a positive way.

Alex Partridge 37:03 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 37:04 You can't, you know, you can't control what other people are gonna say or think about you. But I just, you know, it's like thinking anything that matters is what I believe about myself.

Alex Partridge 37:14 Therapy has been helpful for you?

Millie Mackintosh 37:16 Therapy's been really helpful for me. I done different forms of therapy at different points of my life. Um, when I was 16 I was diagnosed with depression, um, as a result of bullying. And I was so not in a head space where I wanted help. I didn't beli- I just was like, "No, I just, I don't want to talk to a therapist." The school was like, "You have to see a therapist every week." I was like, "Okay." And I went and sat there and just refused to speak. And I wish I'd seen it as, you know, as an opportunity to actually do some healing. But think back then also people weren't talking about mental health in the same way th- as they are now.

Alex Partridge 37:51 I wanna talk about, uh, Made In Chelsea-

Millie Mackintosh 37:53 Okay

Alex Partridge 37:53 ... uh, just briefly. Um, having appeared on a reality sh- TV show like Made In Chelsea, all about growing up in privilege, has there been any lashback with regards to, "Well, what do you have to complain about? You've got it all"?

Millie Mackintosh 38:07 Yes, definitely. And I do totally appreciate that I am very privileged, and I guess I have my experience of, um, my ADHD and just my general life experience has been very privileged, and I'm very lucky. Um, I know I probably wouldn't have my ADHD diagnosis if I hadn't been able to go privately to have it, because I know on the NHS it's like a year-long-

Alex Partridge 38:33 Oh, gosh, yeah-

Millie Mackintosh 38:33 ... wait list

Alex Partridge 38:33 ... if you're lucky. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 38:34 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 38:35 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 38:35 If you're lucky. Um, which is awful. And so there's a lot of people out there that, you know, suspect they have ADHD but currently are undiagnosed, so they are not receiving treatment for it. And I ha- was seeing a therapist for a while who, um, diagnosed me. And s- and I, and I was listening to a podcast, you talking about how you talked about your diagnosis quite quickly on social media, and maybe afterwards thought, "Maybe I shouldn't have done that."

Alex Partridge 39:00 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 39:01 But, um, I probably waited a m- two months or so before I talked about it, and I have, I have found th- there's, you know, there are a few people that are, have made comments, w- you know, like that. But they're entitled to think that. I'm, I'm still gonna talk about it, um, 'cause I also think that there's other people out there that find it helpful to see someone that's in the public eye talking about mental health and ADHD, and I talk about, a lot about my alcohol-free journey as well.

Alex Partridge 39:31 So how long have you been alcohol free for?

Millie Mackintosh 39:33 Um, over two years now.

Alex Partridge 39:36 And what was the, what was the catalyst there that made you stop drinking alcohol?

Millie Mackintosh 39:40 Uh, my mental health, and understanding just wasn't w- uh, wasn't something that was affecting me necessarily in the same way as, as my friends, as my, as, um, as other people. It was causing me problems. Once I had one, I had always had a tendency to, you know, not know sensible time to stop, which was normally past kind of sensible limit, and, uh, kind of, you know, that kind of urge to binge drink.

Alex Partridge 40:13 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 40:13 And it was really doing, um, doing harm. And as I got older, the ways it was causing harm, like the, kind of the problems were getting, problems it was causing me were getting harder to deal with, and it just w- didn't make sense for me anymore. I was like, "This is, uh, toxic," and, uh, it was like kind of breaking up with that toxic ex at last. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 40:36 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 40:36 Like, okay, breaking free, and it has been really freeing.

Alex Partridge 40:41 It's such a common theme where, you know, if you look at the ADHD item shelf, there's a, there's a bottle of wine and there's a bottle of beer, and I think in most episodes, uh, alcohol comes up as a coping mechanism often for the anxiety. And you can have a drink to c- for certainly in my case, to quieten the mind.

Millie Mackintosh 41:00 Yes.

Alex Partridge 41:00 Um, but often that can render you unable to stop because you get so hyper-focused on the next drink. And that has led-

Millie Mackintosh 41:08 Yeah

Alex Partridge 41:08 ... a lot of us to some quite dark places. Um, you could call it-

Millie Mackintosh 41:11 Definitely that, that next drink-

Alex Partridge 41:12 The n-

Millie Mackintosh 41:13 ... that urge for the next one and the next one. Like I would finish a drink so quickly-

Alex Partridge 41:18 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 41:18 ... and then be like onto the next, onto the next, where other people were like, you know, slowly drinking, and I would be like already, like, where, round w- my third margarita.

Alex Partridge 41:27 Mm. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 41:28 Um, and then not really, and then, you know, some people are, can, I think can drink quite a lot and still stay quite composed, still kind of remain quite in control, whereas I was that, I've just, I've written a book about it called Bad-Drunk, and I was the bad drunk.

Alex Partridge 41:45 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 41:45 That, you know, after that th- that third drink was, you know, visibly drunk and just wasn't a good look.

Alex Partridge 41:52 And the rock bottom, uh, that many people experience, their alcohol, their drinking takes them to some really dark places, and often there's a moment that, that was so dreadful that they were so fearful of drinking again. Do you relate to the concept of a rock bottom?

Millie Mackintosh 42:08 Yes. I had one, and I had the worst panic attack I've probably ever had. I have had some pretty nasty ones since, but at that point I'd never had a panic attack that was this intense. And, um, I was away from home. I was on a boat with Hugo. We, we, we were staying with friends. Um, it, it was after we'd had kids. Um, they were, and the youngest one was quite young. Um, and it was hard being away from them, but we'd been drinking a few nights in a row, woke up, had a hangover- And had a really intense panic attack, and it, I wasn't aware of it being a panic attack. I just felt like I was dying, and I felt like I couldn't breathe and really felt like I was gonna black out, and it felt very real that that was, that was it, and I was about to die. So it was really, really scary to be like, okay, feeling like I was moments from death, and then after the attack, being like, that was linked to me drinking and realizing that kind of alcohol-induced anxiety. I had anxiety anyway, but if you're drinking because you're anxious to not feel anxious, it's just like-

Alex Partridge 43:23 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 43:24 ... literally putting gasoline on a fire because you're, the next day, just 10 times more anxious, and that was very true for me. But it wasn't just a hangover, it was like very intense anxiety the next... Not even just the next day, sometimes for days after drinking.

Alex Partridge 43:40 And that was your last drink?

Millie Mackintosh 43:42 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 43:43 And how long ago was that?

Millie Mackintosh 43:46 The 25th of August, 2022.

Alex Partridge 43:49 Have you noticed any, uh, benefits to your, to your concentration, your focus, your just general h- mental health since you've stopped drinking?

Millie Mackintosh 43:57 Definitely. Um, I would say it's just really helped me to finally learn to start loving the person that I see in the mirror, to actually do the deeper work and actually, I, although I was doing therapy and meditation and different wellness practices before, it's like I wasn't really scratching the surface, and it's like now I've actually started to do the work that was needed, and it's kind of started me off on this, like, healing journey. Um, and yeah, it's completely, like, transformed my life. It hasn't all been, like, rainbows and unicorns and, like, super easy. It's actually been quite hard because the, I'm not numbing with alcohol, so you've gotta feel the feelings-

Alex Partridge 44:49 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 44:49 ... and for a long time I hadn't, hadn't been feeling my feelings. I hadn't been, uh, yeah. I j- I wasn't willing to feel those, like, a lot of, a lot of discomfort and things that I'd carried around with me since I was quite young. So it's been, it's been a journey. It's been a bit of a rollercoaster, but I feel too, like, now I'm two and a bit years in, it definitely gets better, but it's, it's not always easy.

Alex Partridge 45:18 Congratulations, by the way.

Millie Mackintosh 45:19 Oh, thank you.

Alex Partridge 45:19 I think it's, it's, uh, it's, I think it's always my number one advice if someone asks for advice for managing ADHD, I think I always say, "Do you drink alcohol?" Um-

Millie Mackintosh 45:27 Mm

Alex Partridge 45:27 ... and if you can quit or at least cut down, 'cause I think, yes, alcohol can in the immediate term, uh, reduce the anxiety and, and have a calming effect, but over, even the next day, I think the, the, the positives that I attribute to ADHD just get completely muted [laughs] and-

Millie Mackintosh 45:43 Yeah

Alex Partridge 45:43 ... the negatives, particularly with the anxiety-

Millie Mackintosh 45:45 Overthinking, yeah

Alex Partridge 45:46 ... just get, like, turned up, uh-

Millie Mackintosh 45:48 Completely

Alex Partridge 45:48 ... significantly. Um-

Millie Mackintosh 45:51 Yeah, I was always like, "Why do hangovers affect me more than other people?"

Alex Partridge 45:55 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 45:55 But it's, yeah, p- probably because of the, of the ADHD.

Alex Partridge 45:58 Mm.

Alex Partridge 46:00 I want to talk about relationships.

Millie Mackintosh 46:03 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 46:03 Um, but first I wanna draw attention to your ADHD item again.

Millie Mackintosh 46:07 Okay.

Alex Partridge 46:07 I'm fascinated [laughs] to know what-

Millie Mackintosh 46:09 Can we talk about what it is, yeah?

Alex Partridge 46:11 It's the logo for the Notes app on an iPhone, I believe.

Millie Mackintosh 46:14 It is.

Alex Partridge 46:14 I'm not gonna turn it around because it'll break the illusion, but explain why the Notes app is your ADHD item.

Millie Mackintosh 46:22 I think I've probably got about 4,000 notes in my phone.

Alex Partridge 46:24 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 46:25 And my Notes app is how I don't forget things, because I, I often have a thought, and if I don't write it down straightaway, it's gone, and the, and I, it would be, like, impossible to think about it, to, to remember what it was. So it's, it's kind of, I think, a coping strategy for, um, my scattered mind, and being very organized is one of the ways that I cope with, um, having so many thoughts all the, at one moment. So constantly writing things down, keeping lists. Lo- I love a list.

Alex Partridge 46:59 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 47:00 Oh, I just love a list. I just check it off, and-

Alex Partridge 47:02 But do you remember to look at it?

Millie Mackintosh 47:03 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:04 Y- you do? Okay. Yeah, that one's always-

Millie Mackintosh 47:05 I have, yeah, I, like, make myself look at it.

Alex Partridge 47:07 Yeah. Yeah, that's always the kryptonite sometimes is you get, like we were talking about earlier, that, that dopamine of planning, uh, like the, writing the list is great.

Millie Mackintosh 47:15 Yes.

Alex Partridge 47:16 But then actually doing-

Millie Mackintosh 47:16 But, but I think ticking off a list-

Alex Partridge 47:18 Is also good, isn't it?

Millie Mackintosh 47:19 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:19 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 47:19 Yeah, it's like, you're like, "Oh," and it's like realizing also if you've made a list of things to do, and the thing you wanna do least, just get it done, and you do, I, I definitely get a dopamine, I, a dopamine hit from that, and I think b- just feeling like I'm being productive feels really good. Like, if I've like, okay, I've got stuff to do, got it done, and then you're like, "Oh."

Alex Partridge 47:37 The-

Millie Mackintosh 47:38 Love that feeling

Alex Partridge 47:38 ... do the hardest thing first, and that gives you the dopamine to then get through the rest.

Millie Mackintosh 47:42 Yes.

Alex Partridge 47:42 Great advice. That's really good advice.

Alex Partridge 47:45 I think you're gonna like the question in the Washing Machine of Woes. It's, it's the-

Millie Mackintosh 47:49 Okay

Alex Partridge 47:50 ... ADHD Agony Aunt section, and my item is a washing machine because I always leave my clothes in the machine at the end of the cycle.

Millie Mackintosh 47:59 Oh, yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:59 Do you do that?

Millie Mackintosh 48:00 Yeah, and then they, like, start to smell a bit, like, musty.

Alex Partridge 48:03 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 48:04 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 48:04 The damp smell.

Millie Mackintosh 48:06 Yeah, I'm very good at putting laundry in the machine.

Alex Partridge 48:08 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 48:08 And then I hate, like, hanging it.

Alex Partridge 48:10 That's the fun part is putting it on, 'cause you feel like-

Millie Mackintosh 48:12 And the same with the, the dishwasher.

Alex Partridge 48:14 Yes. And then when it's your turn to-

Millie Mackintosh 48:15 Hate unloading it

Alex Partridge 48:16 ... yeah. No, it's kryptonite, isn't it? Um, every week I ask my community to send me their ADHD woes, and it goes in the Washing Machine of Woes. I have a sponsor called the Tiimo app, and since I've been using them, I'm getting better at getting my laundry out of the machine. This week in the Washing Machine of Woes, "My daughter has ADHD and is incredibly impulsive and always getting into trouble, not thinking about consequences. She keeps getting approached on Instagram to go on reality TV, and she really wants to. Do you think it's a good idea?"

Millie Mackintosh 48:51 Wow, that's a good question. It's hard 'cause it's like imagining that being my daughter, you know, in the future. It's so hard to answer that actually, because I feel incredibly lucky with my experience of, um, reality, of reality TV that I came out of it okay.

Alex Partridge 49:08 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 49:09 Um, but it did really affect my mental health, and there wasn't the kind of aftercare that there probably should have been at the time. And, you know, we did a show. We didn't know if we were gonna be liked, if we were gonna be hated. We didn't know if it was gonna be successful. It actually ended up being super successful. It's still running, um, which is amazing, but now there's all these remakes. We, we took a gamble and, you know, I'm very, I'm very grateful that I had that opportunity, and it's led me here. Um, but what I want... I'd, I'd say possibly not.

Alex Partridge 49:52 Mm. Well, I suppose reality-

Millie Mackintosh 49:54 If she's, if she, if, if she feels like there's this, uh, impulsivity, and it can lead you to do, you know, to, to have the kind of guts sometimes to jump in and just do something, which is scary, and sometimes that is, uh, the challenging thing to do. But yeah, it's really hard as a mom to say that. I would, I would... I'm sure my parents were kind of horrified when I said I wanted to go on Made In Chelsea. I'd say I kind of wanna know what the show is, it, 'cause there's, like, lots of different reality shows now. But, uh, as a mom, I would probably persuade, try and persuade my children not to do it, but then they're also gonna be like, "But this is what you did." So it's h- I'm gonna have to definitely have an answer for-

Alex Partridge 50:40 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 50:41 ... ready.

Alex Partridge 50:42 I suppose also-

Millie Mackintosh 50:43 In a few years

Alex Partridge 50:44 ... reality TV is a bit like the internet in, in the sense that it, it will always be out there, um, and certain clips, certain scenes will resurface. Um, so how is that for you-

Millie Mackintosh 50:59 Yeah

Alex Partridge 50:59 ... sort of watching, I suppose, now extinct versions of yourself on, on the internet, and how does that inter- interfere with your RSD?

Millie Mackintosh 51:08 Kind of feels like it's another person, like another... I feel quite, um, distanced from it. Like, it, like, I am not that girl now, and so it kind of feels like another lifetime. Sometimes I see a meme or something. I find, I, I do find it entertaining, and I'm just like, "Oh, God bless. That poor girl."

Alex Partridge 51:30 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 51:31 So I, I have, like, a lot of, I have a lot more kind of compassion for my younger self when I watch that, those clips now. Um, sometimes they're entertaining. Sometimes it's a bit more uncomfortable. But, uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back and do it all again now, but it has led me where I am. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 51:48 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 51:49 It has led me here.

Alex Partridge 51:50 And now, here, you are, you are in a, um, a high-profile relationship.

Alex Partridge 51:55 Um, what is it like dealing with the, the trials and tribulations of, I suppose, not only growing up yourself but also dealing with the complexities of a relationship in the public eye?

Millie Mackintosh 52:09 We, when we were together when we were younger, our relationship was, you know, literally playing out on TV, and now it's very different. You know, he's no longer really in, um, the public eye at the moment, and our relationship, um, doesn't, you know, it's pretty private. So I think we've got, um, you know, you've got the boundaries there. Yes, I do, sometimes he's on my social media. Occasionally, I'm on his, but it's, you know, just some images or, you know, little clips that we choose to share, and 99% of our time together as a couple is not-

Alex Partridge 52:49 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 52:49 ... being, being aired. So I think, you know, it is, it's challenging, um, just, I think relationships in general when you've got ADHD, and we, uh, he definitely doesn't have it. Marriage with young kids is challenging, but we've really learnt, um, to communicate better. The last few years, uh, has, there have been ups and downs and feeling like growing apart or going in, like, different directions, and I think in a way I've learnt that you can kind of grow apart and grow back together as well.

Alex Partridge 53:24 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 53:24 So it's just like riding the wave, and we've, we're really there for each other, and we've both done quite a lot of work in therapy on our own to be able to understand each other better as well, and I think it's just, you know, you've gotta continually work at it. We're going, we're going away next weekend to literally watch Netflix in bed for two days.

Alex Partridge 53:48 Sounds amazing. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 53:49 [laughs] And like not be disturbed by our kids.

Alex Partridge 53:53 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 53:53 Literally, like, all we wanna do is just, like, be, like, still and-

Alex Partridge 53:59 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 53:59 ... um, eat snacks and, and watch, and watch TV. Just, like, delightful. I'm so excited. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 54:06 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 54:06 So that's kind of where the, the point in our relationship that we're at right now, but, um, definitely very different to when we were together when we were younger.

Alex Partridge 54:17 With relationships, I know you said it's, it's, it's, it's private, so just, just say, "Skip," if you don't wanna go there. I think RSD is, is, and, and relationships is a common pain point, and we had a relationship therapist who said RSD is the biggest pain point when there is A- ADHD involved in a relationship. Given the sort of brief explanation of RSD I gave earlier, can you see RSD causing issues in romantic relationships in your life?

Millie Mackintosh 54:44 I think definitely. I, I mean, I, looking back, I guess I would've said alcohol caused me a lot of issues in previous relationships and, like- Having those kind of fiery arguments that would be after a couple of drinks, um, those kind of explosive rows that normally, you know, it was like things that weren't said, but then after a few drinks it was suddenly just like this rage that-

Alex Partridge 55:08 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 55:08 ... could come out. So yeah, I guess from what you've described as a bit of it. Um, but I'm quite interested to know more what other ways do you think it affects relationships, 'cause I'm, I'm still, I kind of u- understanding and learning about my ADHD and, and I, and I haven't connected all the dots, so I'm still ... I'm kind of like, "Tell me how it-"

Alex Partridge 55:29 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 55:29 ... "might be affecting my relationship," then I can be like, "Okay, that happened."

Alex Partridge 55:33 Well, I think if, if we focus on RSD in, in relationships, I think it can trigger the ADHD partner, and that trigger can look differently depending on how it, how that trigger manifests. And a lot of the time it can just result in a, in, in a shutdown.

Millie Mackintosh 55:50 Oh, yeah.

Alex Partridge 55:50 Um, like an internalized shutdown. Um, and you can be having a conversation and you-

Millie Mackintosh 55:56 I do that

Alex Partridge 55:58 ... you ... And your partner might say something that you perceive as a criticism, and that internalizing happens, and at that point you're having two separate conversations. But without the awareness of your other partner knowing that that's going on, um, you can see how that could cause friction and, and, and, uh, conflict, because suddenly you're z- you've zoned out, you're- you've gone internalized because you've been triggered, but the, the, your partner doesn't know that you've been triggered, so suddenly you get accused of not listening, you've zoned out, you're not paying attention. Do you relate to that scenario?

Millie Mackintosh 56:32 Yes. It's like hearing something you don't like and just being like, "I'm gonna shut this down, distract, deflect, leave the room." Yeah. That's definitely frustrated him in the past. And also I think even, like, with my kids as well, they ... and de- dealing with, like, their tantrums and, um, sometimes I'm triggered to shut down and just I kind of go very into myself and, um, it's like if I'm being screamed at. I guess it's also like a trauma response [laughs] when-

Alex Partridge 57:10 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 57:10 ... being sh- someone's screaming at you, and I just slip to like zone out.

Alex Partridge 57:15 Is there an awareness of this trigger and shutdown within your marriage?

Millie Mackintosh 57:22 I think, yeah, I ... something I've been working on to definitely have, uh, better communication skills. So instead of shutting down, it's actually being like, "Okay, let's talk about it, or if it's not the appropriate time to talk about it, let's schedule a time to talk about it."

Alex Partridge 57:38 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 57:39 Often if the kids are around and stuff, it's like, "Okay, let's not do this now," but, um, we've g- we've kind of got some good, like, rules around, like, how we sh- should communicate, and it's like m- the ... I, I'm ready to talk and I'm very, my brain's very active first thing in the morning. He's the opposite. I'm like early bird and he's, um, night owl, so first thing in the morning is no and the evening is a no. Um, so it's kind of like not before, not before 10:00 AM-

Alex Partridge 58:06 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 58:07 ... or after 10:00 PM.

Alex Partridge 58:08 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 58:09 Um, I probably should, like, not be hungry.

Alex Partridge 58:11 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 58:12 [laughs] If I'm hangry.

Alex Partridge 58:14 Yeah. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 58:15 Um, should probably be a s- a few days of the month when we also-

Alex Partridge 58:18 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 58:19 ... don't have, um, those kind of conversations. Uh, I think, yeah, d- I have more ... I definitely have a lot more awareness-

Alex Partridge 58:28 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 58:28 ... now than I did a few years ago.

Alex Partridge 58:30 It's amazing. I think that awar- awareness piece stops you from saying stuff in the moment, because without the awareness of RSD and, and these triggers that w- that are so common, you can lash out verbally in that moment where you're just sort of seeing red and you're-

Millie Mackintosh 58:45 Mm

Alex Partridge 58:45 ... you've been triggered, you're dysregulated, and you respond in that state. And nine times out of 10, if you do that, you're gonna say something that you don't mean. You're ... It can be so damaging to, to the other partner. Um, so yeah, brilliant advice. You know, take time out, schedule time, uh, when you're not in that i, i- i- in that state to communicate. Such a healthy boundary, I think, in a relationship.

Millie Mackintosh 59:11 I found, yeah, before, like you said, movement can be so key. Like, I've been in such a m- like felt very in a negative mood with him or with something that's happened, and just I find running, just, like, running-

Alex Partridge 59:24 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 59:24 ... until I no longer feel that energy. That really helps me. And breathing. You know, the kind of thing-

Alex Partridge 59:30 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 59:31 ... like I have a memory of, like, my mom, like, having to kind of count to 10, but, like, now I'm a parent as well, I really-

Alex Partridge 59:36 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 59:36 ... understand that, um, that I need to regulate before I respond to my kids-

Alex Partridge 59:42 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 59:42 ... when they're triggering me. So I have to practice that at home a lot with them, as well as with him.

Alex Partridge 59:48 And I imagine it's not a foolproof process. I imagine there are times where things do get too much, and you do snap, or you do ... And I think it's ... Are you, are you kind to yourself? Firstly, does that happen occasionally? And because you're human-

Millie Mackintosh 1:00:01 Yes

Alex Partridge 1:00:01 ... and are you kind to yourself during those moments?

Millie Mackintosh 1:00:03 I have to work to be kind to myself, 'cause what the pattern tends to be, if I ... it's, like, button's being pushed, button's being pushed, button's being pushed, then something tips me over the edge, snap, shout, say something you don't mean, then guilt, shame, blame-

Alex Partridge 1:00:19 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:00:20 ... and start hating that on myself, basically, and being really hard on myself, um, which is instantly very negative. So it's kind of catching myself and going, "It's okay, you're only human," and then saying something kind to myself and also not holding onto it, just, like, letting go. And then, and then how you resolve it I think is really important. How you resolve it with yourself, also whether it's with the kids or with Hugo, it's like saying sorry, talking it out.

Alex Partridge 1:00:48 Mm-hmm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:00:48 Not, like, not just letting it simmer. Um, and I think I've realized with my kids, like, it's okay to sometimes shout, to, you know, to sometimes you can't ... You know, sometimes you just- The control, it's hard to always be able to take that moment and think before you respond. So, uh, I just show them, try to really try and show them my, you know, on a human level it's okay to, like, to, to mess up. And I, I'm, like, I'll say, "Sorry, I shouted. I shouldn't have shouted at you. Mommy messed up." And th- I think that's really important-

Alex Partridge 1:01:21 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:01:21 ... for them to learn that it's okay to mess up and, and say sorry. It's how you kind of make up with them afterwards. And that kind of advice in a relationship of not kind of going to bed angry at each other, not, like, leaving the house angry at each other, I think that's really important, not letting it fester. 'Cause to be h- we like to overthink-

Alex Partridge 1:01:41 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:01:42 ... [laughs] all of it and just, like, let it get-

Alex Partridge 1:01:45 Yeah

Millie Mackintosh 1:01:45 ... bigger and bigger and bigger in our minds.

Alex Partridge 1:01:47 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:01:47 And it can just ... And also writing stuff down, often, like, if you're, like, angry about something-

Alex Partridge 1:01:51 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:01:51 ... something that's, like, really, like, bothered you, and then you write it out and you write it out and you write it out, and then you're like, "Why did I think that was such a big deal?" It really diffuses it.

Alex Partridge 1:01:59 I think it's fundamental for the success of a long-term relationship, is to have that emotional maturity to, when, when these human moments do happen, where you do boil over, because they will come, they will happen, to acknowledge them with your partner and, and really communicate and analyze, observe why, what was the trigger-

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:18 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:02:19 ... um, and, and to have that sort of ability to, to zoom out together-

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:23 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:02:23 ... as a couple and, and re-

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:24 Like, what's really going on?

Alex Partridge 1:02:25 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:25 'Cause it's often not the thing that's been said-

Alex Partridge 1:02:28 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:29 ... that's, like, led you to boil over. It's, like, all the other things that were going on.

Alex Partridge 1:02:34 Or it could have snapped you back to something that happened-

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:37 Mm

Alex Partridge 1:02:37 ... years ago, that maybe isn't even in your conscious or it's in your subconscious, an early experience.

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:42 Yeah, I've been doing, um, EMDR, which I'm finding really helpful. Also, when you realize that maybe there's something that's-

Alex Partridge 1:02:49 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:49 ... coming up for you, and you're like, "Where is it from?" And ...

Alex Partridge 1:02:52 Just quickly, what's EMDR?

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:54 Um, so it's, like, tapping.

Alex Partridge 1:02:56 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:02:56 But you do, like, both sides. So you can do it, you do it, like, on your legs, so, like, you can do it like this on your arms, and it's about, like, the two ... Uses, like, both sides of the brain and, and your eyes. And you ... There's, I've done it with, um, like, when you, like, watch someone's finger and you're kind of thinking back to a memory-

Alex Partridge 1:03:15 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:03:15 ... or how, like, I've had a, I've done it to process a lot of panic attacks and found it really helpful. You're not always sure, like, what triggered it. It can take you back, and you suddenly are like, "Well, I have a memory."

Alex Partridge 1:03:28 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:03:28 I'm not explaining it very well-

Alex Partridge 1:03:29 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:03:29 ... [laughs] I don't think, so I don't know enough of the science. But it's, um, I was recommended it by, um, my therapist, and I found it really helpful.

Alex Partridge 1:03:40 Brilliant. I'll put a link to, to more information on, on that in the comments, in the description.

Alex Partridge 1:03:44 If you could go back in time, Millie, and give your younger version of yourself some advice, sort of with the, with the understanding of ADHD that you have now, um, what would you tell the younger version of yourself?

Millie Mackintosh 1:03:59 I would say, it's okay to not fit in. I would say it's actually good not to fit in. I would say ... I would, I think it would have definitely benefited me to know I had ADHD as a young person. So if I could go back, I would, I would give myself [laughs] a diagnosis and explain it and say, "This is gonna cause you some challenges, but also this is a superpower if you can harness it."

Alex Partridge 1:04:31 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:04:31 And to ... You know, I d- I don't think I'd be where I am now, doing a lot of the things that I love, um, if I didn't have ADHD.

Alex Partridge 1:04:43 Do you find it easy to maintain friendships?

Millie Mackintosh 1:04:47 I think I've definitely found it challenging in friendships, and over the years I've kind of learnt that it's okay to let go of, of friendships, and you can grow apart from people. I think, if I'm really honest, the thing I've found hard is w- I think it's with people if they're not neurodivergent. They're neurobeige, essentially-

Alex Partridge 1:05:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:05:09 ... [laughs] rather than neurospicy. Um, you, maybe you just don't, you don't find the conversation with them stimulating enough.

Alex Partridge 1:05:16 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:05:16 You don't find it ... I wanna go deep. Like, I wanna n- like, my best friends, like, we, like, the conversations we have are, like, very private, you know? [laughs] Just, like, talk about anything and everything. I made a new friend recently. I'm d- I'm doing the school thing now. My daughter's in school, and, um, meeting the, meeting other moms, it's a bit like speed dating. You kind of instantly know if you've hit it off with someone.

Alex Partridge 1:05:38 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:05:39 And the b- and the ones that I really get on with, um, I find, like, instantly you can just, if you can go deep and just talk about, um ... Or just, like, straight, straightaway just g- start going into, you know, things that are much deeper than surface level, small talk.

Alex Partridge 1:05:57 Ugh, terrible. We're allergic to it. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:05:59 Maybe you're brave. You can tell if they're allergic to it, but you're, I think it's, it's that dopamine thing.

Alex Partridge 1:06:03 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:06:03 You're like, "Okay. Great, this conversation's, like, exciting me."

Alex Partridge 1:06:07 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:06:07 And, uh, I, I have quite a select group of friends. I don't, I'm very cr- like, conscious of my time as well. Um, do you find it affects your friendships?

Alex Partridge 1:06:18 I, so I f- I really struggle to maintain friendships. Um, and I put it down to object permanence, which is this theory that if something is sort of out of sight, it's out of mind.

Millie Mackintosh 1:06:29 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 1:06:29 If something is not in my immediate now, in my immediate present, um, it ceases to exist for me. Um, so I'm great at making friends. Um, I love meeting people. Um, I can meet someone in the street, and because they're, they're n- now in my now, I can b- b- instantly become best friends with them, like, chat to them-

Millie Mackintosh 1:06:48 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:06:48 ... over coffee for hours. But as soon as I leave them, it's very hard for me to maintain that connection and reply to messages. Um, it takes up so much energy. And what happens is, time and time again, um, they just, they float off and they cease to exist, and I stop replying to their messages, and it's another person that's come in and out of my life. Um- You know, I, there's, there's little, little things I try and do, like Post-It notes on the fridge saying, "Text Dave," silly things like this. But they work in the short term. Um, but really I've really come to terms with the fact that the best friendships are the ones that don't require that constant-

Millie Mackintosh 1:07:24 Watering

Alex Partridge 1:07:24 ... maintenance. Um, and I can go weeks, months without seeing someone, and then I, I, I, I... Something happens that brings them into my conscience or vice versa, and we text each other, and we meet up, and it's like absolutely no time has passed. It's the friendships that are require that sort of constant watering, um, that, that, that don't last and-

Millie Mackintosh 1:07:46 I had a friendship like that when I had to kind of explain, 'cause it was quite a new friendship, that I just, I didn't have the time to reply all the time.

Alex Partridge 1:07:58 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:07:58 But that it didn't mean that I wasn't invested in the friendship. And once I broke it down and explained it like, "Hey, I really do value as a frien- you as a friend, but, like, I just wanna have our... When I see you, we will have the catch-up."

Alex Partridge 1:08:10 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:08:10 "I don't have time to c- daily be updating you. I will tell you all when I see you." And now we've kind of worked out that rhythm that works for us. We see each other every couple of weeks, have, like, a massive debrief, and then don't speak that much in between.

Alex Partridge 1:08:23 [laughs] Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:08:24 And that's, that's, like, that works pretty well for me.

Alex Partridge 1:08:26 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:08:26 I've got, like, my ride or die best friends I would call an emergency and they would be there, but I don't see them, you know, some w- like, sometimes, you know, it goes, like, a couple of weeks and I haven't seen any of my best friends. And then I'm normally like, "Okay, I should probably-

Alex Partridge 1:08:40 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:08:40 ... do a check-in." Um, I definitely notice with that burnout feeling as well that sometimes you do just need to prioritize, like, going for a walk with a friend or-

Alex Partridge 1:08:49 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:08:49 ... and it does, it does really help. It's important. But often I prioritize working, being productive, being with my kids, and then kind of the friendships. It's like th- when you're juggling so many different things-

Alex Partridge 1:09:02 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:09:02 ... like, work's important, you've gotta provide. Like, spending time with my family's important. I can't, like, not do that. And then, okay, I've got a little bit ti- of time left and I'm like, "I need some self-care," and then so the friendships are kind of at the-

Alex Partridge 1:09:15 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:09:15 ... at the bottom of the pile I've found with, especially since having young kids. And you have, like, at different phases of your life I think your friendships are quite different. As a new mom or a new parent, I think you're just desperate to have another parent to talk to that's got a child a similar age, that's going through the same thing. And I made friends with, with people when my kids were tiny that we don't, we're no longer, we don't speak anymore. And now I've got... It just depends, like, the different phases that you go through.

Alex Partridge 1:09:40 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:09:41 But I think, uh, my relationship with women is also, like, related to how I was treated at school, and that's, like, affected it as well.

Alex Partridge 1:09:53 How has motherhood been for you, especially as you're going through this process of, of getting to know yourself, um, on a deeper level?

Millie Mackintosh 1:10:01 It is incredibly beautiful and also incredibly brutal. It's, like, in equal parts just, like, the best thing ever and the hardest thing ever. But I wouldn't change it. Like, I love my kids so much. I really want another one, but then also just don't think I could cope.

Alex Partridge 1:10:22 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:10:24 And I think it's my hormones. Um, but at the same time, I love babies and I really just, I think I'll just always be broody. But I r- am really enjoying, like, the conversation with my kids now.

Alex Partridge 1:10:35 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:10:35 My youngest one's almost three and my eldest is four and a half, and just getting to do things with them on their own, I really love just spending time with them and getting, getting to know them as people. And they're, they're just so funny and they ask the best questions. Um, it's so rewarding when you are really starting to be like, "Okay, we're gonna have, like, this r- incredible relationship," and, and building on that. Um, but and, and understanding with my ADHD my tendency to want to be making the plan rather than being in the plan and how that f- might affect them. Being like, "Okay, right, we're doing the plan now and I actually need to show up for this. This is important. I can't zone out during this time." So I schedule in, like, time pockets when I'm gonna be with my kids.

Alex Partridge 1:11:20 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:11:22 And that's, like, a non-negotiable in my diary. I'm like, okay, there are things that I might move around, meetings I might change at work or I might not go to, 'cause, like, if it's the time doing, like, quality stuff with my kids, it's a non-negotiable.

Alex Partridge 1:11:35 It's super inspiring to see you, um, you know, in this new, new chapter, uh, of your life and, and looking so well and, and thriving by the sounds of it. Um, I think it's inspiring.

Millie Mackintosh 1:11:48 Thank you. It's, uh, yeah, it's been, it's been a rollercoaster, but I'm, I'm really glad that I, that I got diagnosed. It's been, it's, it's, I find it so interesting.

Alex Partridge 1:11:59 You've been pretty open about, uh, body image and the like, how a mother changes during and post-pregnancy. Can you run us through that process, the self-esteem battle and where you are now with it?

Millie Mackintosh 1:12:13 That's been quite a wild ride. It, I think it's one thing to go through it as a woman, but all, all women going through pregnancy post- and then postpartum and this time, um, when you, when you've just become a new mother, which is now called, there's a word for it, it's called matrescence, just, you know, going from woman to, to mother and to motherhood, and how it changes you, and your, your entire life is different. And it's, it's hard going through such a personal emotional transition. At the same time, you know, you've got all this stuff going on inside, but on the outside things have changed as well. And for me, it was hard doing that with people looking, with photographers wanting to get the picture of you leaving hospital looking swollen, looking like, you know, like you've just had a baby, which is in reality-

Alex Partridge 1:13:07 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:13:07 ... like you've just been hit by the, by a bus. And it's, but that's really brutal.

Alex Partridge 1:13:12 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:13:12 It was really hard, and it did affect my self-esteem, and that was definitely a time when people's comments got to me. Um, the self-loathing, and it was, it was hard for me even just to, like, leave the house, especially... It was, it was more with my first daughter. The second time I was more prepared for it, and it didn't affect me in the same way. But the first time, it was also after lockdown, so you know, I'd been at home eating for two on the sofa for, like, months. That was, that was really hard. And now, a few years on, I feel in a completely different place. Like, I've really stopped caring so much what people think, and I care about being strong, I care about being healthy, I care about exercise because it makes me feel good mentally.

Alex Partridge 1:14:06 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:14:07 Um, I exercise most days because it makes me feel good mentally, and I like feeling strong, and I like feeling, feeling like I'm improving at whatever I'm doing in the gym or in Pilates or yoga, running. But I run m- because I find it fun. I'm not, like, trying to beat my, any kind of data. I'm just like this. I just listen to music and find it fun, or I walk and listen to podcasts, and I, I enjoy, um, movement, and I can understand its benefits, uh, especially with ADHD and understanding, um, you know, what you eat and how you... Your wellness, your lifestyle is, you can manage your ADHD symptoms. I think it's different for everyone. I've found I'm... I've tried medication as well, but that I'm trying to manage my ADHD a lot with my lifestyle. I already don't drink, which really helps. Um, so it was, yeah, it was quite a wild ride to go through that, but I think it's taught me a lot. I've had two kids, and I love my body now more than I did in my 20s.

Alex Partridge 1:15:17 It's very inspiring, and I know there's gonna be lots of, lots of listeners, um, who are gonna be feeling really positive and, and inspired by what you just said. Um, I can't thank you enough. Uh, in fact, I think it's interesting. I reflect back on, on how I first reached out to you. I think I saw you liked some of my ADHD content on Instagram, and I sent you a DM asking if you wanted to come on the podcast. Um, and you replied saying that you would love to come on the podcast. So I suppose my question is, why did you feel like it was important to come on here today and speak about ADHD?

Millie Mackintosh 1:15:54 Because finding out I had ADHD, um, has been very validating for me. It's helped me have a lot of compassion for myself, for the decisions I've made in the past, for the way I've acted, for the things I've done in the past, and that's helping me to... It's really helping with my mental health, um, having this deeper awareness. So I think talking about it and, um, breaking down the stigma around it, see it can affect people very negatively, and I've only, can only talk about my own experience of how it's been for me. Uh, I think, yeah, making it, um, something that doesn't feel taboo or doesn't feel, like, shameful or like a disadvantage.

Alex Partridge 1:16:37 Mm. Yep. Yep.

Millie Mackintosh 1:16:40 Talking about, you know, the positive parts as well.

Alex Partridge 1:16:42 Yeah, absolutely. Truly inspiring, Millie. We have a, a closing tradition on the podcast now. It's a new tradition. Uh, well, it's been a couple of weeks, but it's very new still to me.

Millie Mackintosh 1:16:52 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:16:53 Um, where the previous guest writes three rules to live by.

Millie Mackintosh 1:16:57 Okay. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:16:57 Um, and it gets posted in that post box-

Millie Mackintosh 1:16:59 Okay

Alex Partridge 1:16:59 ... in the middle of the set, and then I deliver the letters to you. The last episode was a dual. It was a mother and daughters, and there's actually six rules, [laughs] which I'm gonna ask you to read-

Millie Mackintosh 1:17:08 Okay

Alex Partridge 1:17:08 ... [laughs] if you've got any, uh, voice left.

Millie Mackintosh 1:17:10 Okay.

Alex Partridge 1:17:10 There's the letter from the previous guest-

Millie Mackintosh 1:17:12 Okay

Alex Partridge 1:17:12 ... to the next guest. Yeah, that's where the budget goes.

Millie Mackintosh 1:17:15 [laughs] Three rules to live by. Don't try to control things you can't, you can't change. Such a good one. I also totally agree, and that's something I have to remind myself of all the time 'cause I... Controlling things makes me feel safe. Um, it's also a trauma response. Um, but you can't control... You can only control how you react to things. You can't control everything, so that's a very good one. Protect your peace. Yes, very important. Um, keep a small circle of friends. That's something I definitely do. Um, so yes to all of those, I agree, and good reminder. And then I've got, "Don't worry about things you cannot change," so kind of similar to the last one-

Alex Partridge 1:18:07 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:07 ... but different way of saying it. Eat chocolate. Completely agree.

Alex Partridge 1:18:11 That's a good one. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:11 I was gonna say I'm searching for my sweet treat after lunch. Love fiercely.

Alex Partridge 1:18:19 Strong. It's sort of turning into a mini TED Talk at the end-

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:21 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:18:21 ... of these episodes.

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:23 Yeah, just-

Alex Partridge 1:18:23 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:23 I think just put those on a Post-it on your mirror.

Alex Partridge 1:18:26 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:27 I think Post-its are a great reminder for an ADHD-

Alex Partridge 1:18:31 Oh

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:31 ... person as well.

Alex Partridge 1:18:32 So, yeah, keeping things visual.

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:34 I do, I do, like, affirmations on the mirror with, like, a photo of my younger self. Find that quite help- like, a helpful reminder to, like, be kind.

Alex Partridge 1:18:42 That's nice. That's cool.

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:43 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:18:43 What do you say? So you say stuff to the picture of the younger you?

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:47 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:18:48 Nice. What do you say to her? I-

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:50 It dep- this depended a bit on, like, the inner child work that I was-

Alex Partridge 1:18:53 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:18:53 ... doing at the time, but a lot of just, you know, self-compassion. Like, you know, I've, I've had, like, imposter syndrome at different, at different points as well, and just being like, "You are enough," that's been a big one for me.

Alex Partridge 1:19:08 Mm. Amazing. Millie, this has been truly, as I keep saying, inspiring, but it really has. Thank you so much.

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:15 Thank you. [outro music]

Alex Partridge 1:19:19 How many screenshots have you got on your phone? [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:21 Can I check?

Alex Partridge 1:19:22 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:23 Oh my God, I love screenshotting things. About as much as I make notes, I also screenshot.

Alex Partridge 1:19:28 The record was 16,000.

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:31 I've got 26,000 screenshots.

Alex Partridge 1:19:34 Ding, ding, ding. You're the-

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:35 Woo-hoo

Alex Partridge 1:19:35 ... you're the new record holder. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:37 Um, I mean, I've got-

Alex Partridge 1:19:38 What-

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:39 ... nearly 300,000 photos, so.

Alex Partridge 1:19:42 Do you remember to look at the screenshots?

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:44 Yes.

Alex Partridge 1:19:44 You do?

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:45 When I flick back through my phone and I'm trying to remember something-

Alex Partridge 1:19:49 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:19:49 ... I'll go b- through and I'll have screenshotted something like a recipe I wanted to make or some important text, and then you can search in your photos just for a word. So if I've screenshotted, yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:20:00 Oh, you can do that now-

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:00 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:20:00 ... can't you? That's so clever.

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:02 So it's actually is, if I haven't put something in notes, sometimes I can find-

Alex Partridge 1:20:05 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:05 ... something will jog my memory in my photos.

Alex Partridge 1:20:08 How many unread emails have you got?

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:12 I have a thing where I h- I hate having a lot of unread emails, so I'll be awake sometimes at 5:00 AM, and I just wake up early, and I'll just have to go and go through all my unread emails, um, from f- the day. If I've done something like a shoot or something like this, I haven't been on my phone for a few hours, my emails will stack up.

Alex Partridge 1:20:30 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:31 And when I know they're there, they're just, like, in the back of my mind, like a weight, like this thing that needs to be done. So I, I just feel so much lighter once I've, like, just swapped them back out of your inbox again.

Alex Partridge 1:20:44 Such a good idea. Do you ever reply mentally?

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:47 Yes.

Alex Partridge 1:20:47 And then realize [laughs] you haven't actually-

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:49 Yes

Alex Partridge 1:20:49 ... sent the message?

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:49 And then you're like... [gasps]

Alex Partridge 1:20:50 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:51 Yes. And I sometimes I, although I'm really hypervigilant, I do sometimes totally forget-

Alex Partridge 1:20:55 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:55 ... that I've made a plan.

Alex Partridge 1:20:57 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:20:57 Do you, does that happen to you?

Alex Partridge 1:20:59 Yes. Yeah, all the time. Like, I, I, I have a visual calendar now, so I write stuff down on an actual physical calendar-

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:04 Me too

Alex Partridge 1:21:04 ... 'cause as soon as I put it in my digital calendar-

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:06 I have two

Alex Partridge 1:21:08 It's so helpful.

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:09 A written one and-

Alex Partridge 1:21:10 Yeah

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:10 ... yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:21:10 Again, it's that object permanence. As soon as it's on my phone, it, again, it ceases to exist and I forget to look at it. What about reusable shopping bags? Do you remember to take them when you go to the supermarket?

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:20 Sometimes.

Alex Partridge 1:21:21 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:21 I feel really good when I remember.

Alex Partridge 1:21:23 Yeah. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:24 But then there's, there's a lot of bags within a bag, within a bag.

Alex Partridge 1:21:26 Yeah, yeah. Do you have a cupboard in your, like, s- kitchen-

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:29 Yes

Alex Partridge 1:21:30 ... that's overflowing?

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:30 Full of bags.

Alex Partridge 1:21:31 Yeah, yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:32 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:21:32 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:33 Uh, I, yeah, I nine times out of 10 probably forget my bag.

Alex Partridge 1:21:37 What about domains? Like, d- business ideas, domains. Do you have a lot? Do you have many of them?

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:42 I've got a, I've had a couple.

Alex Partridge 1:21:44 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:45 Maybe, you know, about three or four.

Alex Partridge 1:21:48 Right.

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:48 So not loads, but I have had business ideas and things that I've been excited about that haven't happened.

Alex Partridge 1:21:55 What about returns? If you buy a clothing and-

Millie Mackintosh 1:21:58 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:21:58 ... you don't like it, can you, do you have it in you to return stuff?

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:02 I have an assistant.

Alex Partridge 1:22:03 Oh, that's, that's the-

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:04 That's not, there's-

Alex Partridge 1:22:04 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:04 She does a lot of things. One of the things she does-

Alex Partridge 1:22:08 Yeah

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:08 ... is, is returning things. 'Cause sometimes you just don't know until you, until you see it.

Alex Partridge 1:22:12 Yeah, yeah. Gosh, the amount of pe- uh, uh, the amount... It's the ADHD tax. It's like, it's like that you just don't have it in you to return the item, and therefore-

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:21 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:22:21 ... the return window expires and you lose the money because you just didn't have it in you.

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:25 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:22:25 Um, what about, do you go, do you go through, like, fads of... Do you get obsessed with particular foods, meals?

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:30 Oh, yeah, I heard you talking about getting obsessed with things. One of the ADHD traits that I did not know was an ADHD trait until I heard it on your podcast, I was like, "What the fuck?" Was getting-

Alex Partridge 1:22:41 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:41 ... really obsessed with eating one thing and eating it-

Alex Partridge 1:22:43 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:43 ... again and again and again, and then suddenly being like, "That's disgusting"

Alex Partridge 1:22:47 Yuck. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:47 ... and, and having, like, the ick with it and never wanting to eat it again.

Alex Partridge 1:22:50 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:51 I have that. I had it recently. I was obsessed with eating papaya. S- specific conversation-

Alex Partridge 1:22:57 [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:22:58 ... uh, specific, um, combination. It was, like, Greek yogurt with papaya, passion fruit, and then this type of, like, wildflower honey-

Alex Partridge 1:23:07 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:07 ... and it was, like, my favorite snack. I had it every day for, like, months.

Alex Partridge 1:23:11 Yeah.

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:12 And now just it's completely gone. Papaya tastes like soap, and I don't want to eat it.

Alex Partridge 1:23:15 Yeah. So weird. I'm, I'm just coming out of a fried chicken and mashed potato era. I've been hon- I've been hon- I've literally had it every night for about two weeks, and my partner's like-

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:23 Wow

Alex Partridge 1:23:23 ... "When are you just gonna, this is gonna run out."

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:25 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:23:25 And now I'm just over it. [laughs]

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:27 It's gone.

Alex Partridge 1:23:28 Are you a voice note person or a message person?

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:32 It's a long message, definitely a voice note. But I'm a let's talk about it in person person.

Alex Partridge 1:23:38 Mm. What if someone sends you a long voice note? Is that excruciating, or can you get through those?

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:43 Then I'll listen to it while I'm doing something.

Alex Partridge 1:23:46 Good. That's good. Yeah, that's really nice.

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:47 Like, while I'm walking or doing my skincare routine or, you know-

Alex Partridge 1:23:51 Mm

Millie Mackintosh 1:23:51 ... I'll just hit play. It's five minutes. Okay, I'll hit play, like, while I'm doing something and just listen to it. Um, voice notes, I do find it really helpful to sometimes just I send lots of voice notes while I'm walking.

Alex Partridge 1:24:03 Mm.

Millie Mackintosh 1:24:04 And I find when I'm exercising, I think because of the way it helps with your thought process when you have ADHD, like, I'll be halfway through a workout and I'll suddenly just be like, "I've got to write that down."