No.1 AuDHD Expert: The Lonely Side Of AuDHD Nobody Talks About

1. 0:00 – 1:28

   Trailer

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Many AuDHD women said the autism assessment is really traumatizing. It brings up so many questions about how you are socially and how you communicate. It is very regulating for the nervous system to be in connection with someone. But it's when it doesn't work out, it can be really, really tough. Dr. Samantha Hiew is a specialized female ADHD and autism expert with a PhD in Medical Sciences She's here to spread awareness of ADHD and autism and help you process a diagnosis. Autistic AuHDers have encountered adverse childhood experiences, so they never really had that role model of someone who was there for them who can validate their experience. And when you are born with this increased intensity, you learn quite quickly not everyone can hold the space for that.

   2. APAlex Partridge0:44

      When you go through that process of unmasking, can the traits of your autism momentarily get worse?

   3. SPSpeaker0:51

      Well, speaking as somebody who has-

   4. APAlex Partridge0:53

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Samantha, welcome back.

   5. SPSpeaker1:18

      Thank you so much for having me again. So great to see you.

   6. APAlex Partridge1:21

      We're gonna dive into AuDHD. What age do you think somebody might, having perhaps had, say, an ADHD diagnosis,

2. 1:28 – 3:22

   Why Autism Often Goes Unnoticed

   1. APAlex Partridge1:28

      what age would they then suspect or seek an autism diagnosis?

   2. SPSpeaker1:33

      Yeah, so I mean, these days, we get, you know, children as young as, you know, five years old. But for most of us, uh, late diagnosis adults, these, I, I find it tends to happen in a time when people are either encountering, you know, anything online that makes them think, "Oh, that sounds like me." But for those of us who are going through perhaps transitions in our lives when we feel like, "I'm finding it really hard to cope," or something isn't going well in their lives. You know, I've once mentored some- somebody who said that they, they found it really hard to keep relationships, and that really made them want to pursue a diagnosis, maybe get support. Then, then they think that then, you know, "I can understand myself better, and I can, you know, be in this relationship." But then most women tend to come to an ADHD diagnosis because of hormonal changes that happen or, you know, a history of premenstrual dysphoric disorder, PMDD. As for me, I came to an ADHD diagnosis first at the age of 40 after the birth of my second child. And at the time, I was going through really, you know, big dip in my sex hormones that I didn't know, obviously, you know, how it then impact on my ability to function as a person, you know, whether to think or manage. You know, my anxiety was through the roof, and that led me to then look for some answers.

   3. APAlex Partridge3:01

      I imagine it's a, a huge emotional rollercoaster going through an assessment of, say, autism after, for many, many years, you, you sort of identified or got that label of ADHD. And then at a particular age, you find out that there's more to it. There's more going on. Do you notice in people that you've spoken to,

3. 3:22 – 4:59

   My Emotional Reaction To An Autism Diagnosis

   1. APAlex Partridge3:22

      is there a, a particular emotion that crops up when they finally discover that there's more going on?

   2. SPSpeaker3:28

      That sadness, you know, about the years that people thought that they have lost because of not knowing who they are or constantly trying to work out which one's me now because I seem to have the ability to have a stable life some of the time, and then something happens, and then I completely unravel. And they look back at relationships that didn't work out, you know, and wish that they had known who they are so that they could advocate for themselves. But then there also comes that trying to explain yourself to everyone around you. You're constantly trying to justify your behavior now that you know, and then you're using what you hear other people talk about in terms of, you know, ADHD trait or, or autistic traits, you know, to bring back into your home, your workplace and say, "This is me. Uh, can you please understand?" You know? There is that real frustration in being misunderstood.

   3. APAlex Partridge4:18

      Can that go up a level to anger or resentment?

   4. SPSpeaker4:21

      Oh.

   5. APAlex Partridge4:21

      Can you get so annoyed at having been missed and, you know, "Had I known earlier, I wouldn't have got into that relationship. I wouldn't have married that person. I wouldn't have started that job. I wouldn't have started that business if I had just known earlier"? Do you see that, that, that sense of anger after a, a late AuDHD diagnosis?

   6. SPSpeaker4:40

      Yeah, definitely. Although this anger can often be directed [laughs] to people who don't understand us, rather than di- directed internally. There is that sense of, like, waving your fist up into the air and thinking, "Why did this happen?"

   7. APAlex Partridge4:53

      [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker4:53

      You know? And then you then channel that anger towards wishing and wanting people around you to understand.

4. 4:59 – 7:18

   The Identity Crisis Nobody Talks About

   1. APAlex Partridge4:59

      Can there be a, a real crisis of identity when you get a AuDHD diagnosis? Because you could have, like many people in the community, you know, I think we're expert maskers. We're, we're phenomenal at, at playing this character called normal. Perhaps you've already had an ADHD diagnosis, and you've taken the steps to, to sort of unmask, but then there's also this autistic side that's come out. And then when you find out about that, can there be, like, a crisis of identity where you're not really still sure who you really are?

   2. SPSpeaker5:27

      It's like a layer, you know, like an, an onion 'cause when you take away one layer, then, you know, underneath, there's one, another layer. And then you really need to go back to then who are you and how, how was your way of being constructed or your personality developed, you know, throughout your life. We talked about, you know, what is innately neurodivergent. You know, going out into the world as an autistic AuDHDer, knowing that you are different, we mask to, you know, fit in. But then over time, we find that there are also people who dons not just their mask, but they have created an entirely different persona that is so far removed from who they authentically are that then later in life when they find out that they are, you know, autistic, ADHD, it's like a really huge life ch-You know, life quake. 'Cause you then start to wonder, you know, if I'm gonna turn inward and I'm going to really work at trying to understand who I am, you know, deconstruct all the masks and all the coping strategies, then you find that if you don't have a stable self, right, then this identity starts to unravel because of that lack of anchor from, from the beginning.

   3. APAlex Partridge6:43

      It's quite scary, like how you can unknowingly live for so many years as playing a version of yourself that's not who you really are. But I suppose it's no surprise when ADHD kids, autistic kids, like the amount of times the world tells them that who they are is, is almost like defective and they need to hide who they are. So it's no surprise that you go through life putting on this character. Um, but I suppose when you get to a particular age, having lived for so many years not knowing that you're playing this character,

5. 7:18 – 11:39

   Processing A Late Autism Diagnosis

   1. APAlex Partridge7:18

      and then how do you process that fact? Because you've, you're so used to waking up every day and, and showing the world a particular side of you, then suddenly discovering that there's such a disconnect between that version that you've been presenting for so many years and, and the version of you that's been hidden away f- because of shame. How do you go about closing that gap, and is that impossible or really hard to do after so many years?

   2. SPSpeaker7:45

      I don't think everyone wants to get there if that is what they're dealing with. If you have an inkling that you're not being yourself and your real self is not welcomed or accepted, then you're more likely to, you know, be more of that false self. And then it comes back to the anger piece that you're talking about. People may want to protect that so that they never have to look under the surface, but then they ended up then projecting that anger to the people near them, you know, their nearest and dearest, people who could see who they are behind closed doors, in order to protect the need to do that work. But then if and when this person comes to the point, what they call dark night of the soul or, you know, a point in their life where nothing seems to work anymore, this false self just doesn't seem to work anymore for them because they're unhappy, then they have to contend with that under layer, and this is when everything collapses. [laughs] 'Cause when we get to that point of discovery, you know, which actually I've been, you know, through myself and I've, you know, been in relationships with people who have come to that point where this is midlife. Are you going to spend the rest of your life being this person that you have created that isn't real? And when relationships start to fall away, people do not want to be, you know, with someone who's inauthentic anymore, then they have no choice but to confront it. And I think we are there right now in terms of how people choose to have relationships. We don't want inauthentic relationships. We want to build authentic relationships, conscious, you know, based on what we're both, you know, doing and healing and bringing to the table. So there comes a point where you do have to confront it, and that's really hard work and deep work.

   3. APAlex Partridge9:55

      Do you see when somebody does that deep work you were describing, they do, put in the effort to get a better understanding of who they really are, do they then sometimes look around at people close to them, friendships perhaps, and realize that those friendships no longer serve them?

   4. SPSpeaker10:12

      Yeah. It, it happens a lot to, um, people who they start to understand more about themselves. You know, they excavate and, and do more research and listen to podcasts, and they start to realize that some of the relationships that were formed before they understood who they truly are, when the relationships that were formed based on the mask, you know, that tends to be harder to maintain. Um, a good example is, say maybe you have friendship, you know, because of the circumstances that you all went out to the pub together. But then when you, you know, realize, "Oh, I'm ADHD, I don't want to drink anymore," and then I can't hang out [laughs] so much-

   5. APAlex Partridge10:56

      [laughs]

   6. SPSpeaker10:56

      ... with those people because they... It's called a temptation. You know, then it doesn't align with this journey, then you must go into this spiritual excavation. And I say spiritual not in the sense of like, you know, like we're going to spiritual healing groups, but it's more that questioning of who you are. And people, um, that I have, uh, you know, created groups for, um, f- with, with, with my cohort of women who I d- I'm, I'm supporting, they have said that they go through periods of existential questioning. And yeah, that's when they start to be more discerning and some relationships end, and then some begin.

   7. APAlex Partridge11:33

      When you go through that process of unmasking, becoming more aware of what you've just been diagnosed with,

6. 11:39 – 12:59

   Why Traits Can Feel Stronger After Diagnosis

   1. APAlex Partridge11:39

      c- can there be a, a certain amount of regression that happens? Can, can the traits of your autism or perhaps the traits of your ADHD actually momentarily get worse?

   2. SPSpeaker11:49

      Yeah. I mean, when you tell somebody about this label or they become more aware of who they are, then th- they fixate on that. That then in- inadvertently increases the anxiety of who you are and then what are you doing, and then you start to become more aware of what you're doing. And then maybe you may be more autistic or, you know, more ADHD in some instances. Um, I definitely, like I, I, I heard on Instagram the other day that someone said that after their autism diagnosis, they become more autistic.

   3. APAlex Partridge12:20

      [laughs]

   4. SPSpeaker12:21

      [laughs] Where like, say previously, you know, if they were cleaning up, uh, washing up after dinner-They would look at, you know, the pile of food that's, um, collected near the sink, like, in, in, in the drainer. They would just, you know, empty it without thinking. But now they look at it and they're like, "Oh, it is squishy," you know, "This texture," like, "Ugh, I hate it," you know? And y- you become more aware.

   5. APAlex Partridge12:42

      Mm.

   6. SPSpeaker12:42

      Right? Because you are focusing on it.

   7. APAlex Partridge12:44

      That's dis-

   8. SPSpeaker12:44

      Right?

   9. APAlex Partridge12:44

      You're making me go funny just thinking about that.

   10. SPSpeaker12:46

       Yeah. [laughs]

   11. APAlex Partridge12:46

       That's disgusting. [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker12:47

       It's like, yeah. Ooh.

   13. APAlex Partridge12:49

       It's, I mean, I feel like, as I said earlier, people with, uh, ADHD and, and autism, we're, we're such good maskers, you know. We speak about that on the podcast a lot. Um,

7. 12:59 – 16:40

   The Hidden Cost Of Masking AuDHD

   1. APAlex Partridge12:59

      but do you think we can be so good that the, the traits of AuDHD just go unnoticed?

   2. SPSpeaker13:04

      It's hard [laughs] for it to go unnoticed, because you will notice it, but maybe you won't necessarily think of it as ADHD or, or, or, or autistic-

   3. APAlex Partridge13:12

      Mm

   4. SPSpeaker13:12

      ... traits. For, for me, you know, definitely after I was diagnosed and with ADHD and then figuring out I was, um, autistic and starting medication and the autistic traits became more pronounced, and I was, um, on a dose that was probably too high for me 'cause I was dev- I, I would develop tics, you know, where I would speak really quickly and then, uh, blink a lot and I, I would be tapping, you know, my, my fingers. And that changed a little bit, my, my, my behavior, and then that used to invite comments from other people, "But you weren't like that before."

   5. APAlex Partridge13:45

      You must have spoken to s- to quite a few people now who, who have the joint diagnosis and who are AuDHD.

   6. SPSpeaker13:50

      Yeah.

   7. APAlex Partridge13:51

      Do you have any stories from those encounters of somebody who perhaps has had quite the revelation, quite the shock, um, had a diagnosis of AuDHD later in life, and then almost been like, "Oh my gosh, my whole life has been a character"?

   8. SPSpeaker14:05

      [laughs] Um, yeah, for, for sure. Um, probably including myself, you know, but yeah. [laughs]

   9. APAlex Partridge14:13

      [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker14:14

       Yeah, that, that over-functioning, um, over-responsible for everyone, being everyone's, strangely, prefrontal cortex. I, I joke about it with my daughter, you know, "Do you know how many people I've got to be frontal lobes for?" [laughs]

   11. APAlex Partridge14:28

       [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker14:29

       Like, these two children who are neurodivergent, which are obviously very forgivable because they're very young still, but then even my ex-partner, I used to, you know, remind him every time, "Remember to do this, remember to do that." But when I hit, uh, perimenopause, I just couldn't do it anymore, and so much I just, you know, leave it to him, and he started to struggle. [laughs] He couldn't, you know, really, like, manage the household and everything whilst I was working, and yeah, then I just decided not to do it anymore 'cause biologically I just couldn't, uh, you know, be everyone's everything. But then, then it came to a point where I'm just go- doing the excavation, trying to dig below the surface of really what makes me, um, and trying to really shed the layers that didn't really serve me anymore, and with that came a lot of dismantling, whether it was, um, relationships that were formed because I needed that safety, and then learning to come o- out and really own where I am in terms of not needing someone for safety, because that, needing to do that in the past, you know, if you are entering a relationship because you want to feel safe, then you're always outsourcing that safety to other people. And for me, I realized that no one can do that for you, and then I learned to really anchor in myself and really regulate when something happens or, you know, any mo- mo- moments of dysregulation where relationships don't work out, and it leads me to question, you know, who I am again. And, and that I, I, I, I do find that we, uh, anchoring back in who you are is, is the way forward.

   13. APAlex Partridge16:26

       How do you go about, or how did you go about that process of excavation y- on that, on that journey of self-discovery towards finding out who you really are underneath after getting a diagnosis of autism and ADHD?

8. 16:40 – 20:32

   How To Find Yourself Again

   1. APAlex Partridge16:40

      Like, how did you go about that excavation process?

   2. SPSpeaker16:43

      Well, very naturally [laughs] because I was a scientist and I learned to make sense of the world through biology, and then I excavated so deep into what ADHD means and then now AuDHD, but then I realized there's only so far that science can take you. The rest of it is really how you form relationships, what are the relationship you have with yourself, and, and it's in really dealing with that, that person who is very young. You know, they call it, they, they, psychology call it the inner child. And it's, so trying to recognize it's not just the child at play, it's the protector of the child that comes out in situations that, you know, trigger me, whether it's RSD or, you know, work, [laughs] my work being questioned, or relationships not working out. It does make me question why is there a need for the protector to be so strong? And when I start to look at the protector and it's when everything just dissolved, and I think this journey has been as much about understanding neurodivergence as well as develop- developing into a woman, you know, from a girl. And so many autistic ADHDers have encountered, whether it's, you know, emotional neglect or more overt, like, abuse, you know, adverse childhood experiences in their early lives, so they never really had that role model of someone who was there for them who can validate their experience. And because-We are known to have quite strong emotional intensity, and obviously that begins in childhood. And when you are born with this increased intensity, you know, you learn quite quickly early in life that not everyone can hold the space for that, and certainly not your autistic ADHD mother [laughs] or, you know, your parents who may have sensory challenges. And so you learn quite early in life that it's not okay to be that intense, and you gotta hide that, you know? And then you grow up, and that part never really gets dealt with. It gets, uh, you know, pushed down, and it's like you're submerging in water. It's like you can't breathe sometimes. And when you go into a relationship and someone triggers that feeling of walking on egg, eggshells and not being able to express what you really want, and then you're in a relationship because they related with the mask, [laughs] not the real you. They didn't want the, the person who has needs. They wanted the mask who can be there for them, and it can re-traumatize the person inside that relationship. And, and then you get to la- later in life, like around my age, you get people who are going through menopause, perimenopause, and there was a book that just came out recently called Autistic Menopause, and a- and in it there was this one line that said, um, "Women who tend to suppress their emotions tend to do less well health-wise during menopause." And it's in expressing what is being suppressed that really helps your health, you know, especially when your sex hormones are going up and down, you know. And, and that's, uh, that's where I am right now. You know, it, it's, it's that trying to differentiate who you are as you get older and become more empowered to discern and make your own decisions about, you know, who you are and who you let into your corner, who you align with. That is, that is entirely where I'm at

9. 20:32 – 23:12

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   1. SPSpeaker20:32

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   2. APAlex Partridge20:32

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   3. SPSpeaker22:07

      So it's, it's more what does that real self look like, you know? So the young part of us that's never really, you know, properly expressed her feelings, right, she's gonna come out quite immature. You know, then you get her protector, who may be angry, right? But then if you have worked on really soothing the inner child and the protector, then over time... I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm not saying that I can do it all the time, you know, in the moment, but you give me some time, you know, the softness does, you know, come back, and it's, it's, it's like what, what they say in psychology. You're repare- you're p- reparenting your inner child, but also the fact that you're not getting it from the outside. You're getting it inside you, where you are reparenting your inner child in the way that that, uh, scared, angry child doesn't come out every time when something doesn't work out, and it does come with, um, just practicing inside relationships, I think.

10. 23:12 – 25:39

    Why Making Friends Is So Difficult

    1. APAlex Partridge23:12

       Is making friends a challenge for somebody who is perhaps newly diagnosed with AuDHD? You're getting t- if you're on the process of discovering who you really are and, and you don't really have all the, the data and all the pieces there yet, the complete picture of who you are, is it... It must be quite challenging to, to see who's in alignment with who you are and who isn't. Is it, is it a challenge to make friends post-diagnosis?

    2. SPSpeaker23:36

       I think post-diagnosis, like diagnosis, a late diagnosis in itself is a traumatic event for a lot of people. Understanding, [laughs] you know, in your 40s or 30s or the labels that are supposed to encapsulate your experience, except that it doesn't fully, then it can make you think that you are so different. And then, and then you may also think that, oh, maybe people who are autistic ADHD like me would be better friends. [laughs] Um, and I've realized that whilst it's definitely cause for, like, you know, more understanding being around people with, who share the same labels, many people in this population are also quite traumatized, and that makes relationships challenging because then you're trying not to trigger each other. [laughs]

    3. APAlex Partridge24:35

       [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker24:36

       And, and the thing is-You are going into trauma-informed relationships whilst you are healing yourself. So you are watching yourself both thinking, "Am I really feeling this, or am I being manipulative?" You know, or, "Am I being sincere here? Is this right?" You know, like, you're just questioning yourself, your behaviors more. Yeah, so it, it, it can be an interesting experience. But on the flip side of that is there's no one else who could understand burnout better than someone who shares the same label, who can understand, you know, sensory challenges. So we know that when we go out together, if we are both on the verge of burnout, we can just, you know, have individual pods of, um, I, I, I like to go to flotation tanks where I can just be by myself whilst, you know, a friend is in the other room. So we both understand each other, so we don't have to spend time together. But it's almost like parallel play.

    5. APAlex Partridge25:37

       Mm.

    6. SPSpeaker25:37

       You know, and, and that's great when you have a

11. 25:39 – 30:57

    Finding Love As An AuDHDer

    1. SPSpeaker25:39

       friendship like that.

    2. APAlex Partridge25:40

       What about true love? Is it, is it hard to find true love if you're, if you're newly diagnosed and you're on this journey of understanding who you actually are? Is it hard to, to, to find your soulmate when you're in that phase of life?

    3. SPSpeaker25:51

       Uh, yes. [laughs]

    4. APAlex Partridge25:53

       [laughs]

    5. SPSpeaker25:54

       Well, speaking as somebody who has, you know, navigated quite a few relationship, um, breakdowns, and before my marriage, I used to think of myself as being quite, what, what is that word, serial monogamist, you know? And [laughs]

    6. APAlex Partridge26:08

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker26:09

       And never really understood what I could bring to relationships. And my attachment patterns have changed over time from actually being quite avoidant to begin with, you know. I've, I've then be- had a period of appearing quite secure because I was in a stable relationship, I guess. And then after that, becoming quite anxious avoidant. And it keeps changing. But right now, I'm navigating what really aligns with my values in terms of, um, and everyone has different ones. But for me, it's so important that relationships are built on the truth. My, I don't care, you know, what the other person, um, is asking for, no matter how unreasonable, as long as it's the truth, you know? But not everyone can tell you the truth because, um, we, when, when you come to my age, I'm in my mid-40s, and we have had preconditioning about what relationships are supposed to be. And many of us grew up, you know, with parents who believe that even if you don't, you know, if you don't feel happy, you're, you'll stay together forever. But we're not like that. You know, now, and we're the generation who believes that love doesn't always work out, and that's okay. In some ways also, we don't expect it to be perfect, but we're also trying to figure out how to have conscious relationships. Um, then it can make it harder because once you become more discerning, then you are less likely to say yes to majority of relationships. [laughs] And it becomes quieter for a while, but that's okay, because then you attract more alignment, and really in this matter, quan- quantity isn't as important as quality.

    8. APAlex Partridge28:05

       Do you have any stories, Sam, of somebody that you know that's had a late AuDHD diagnosis, and then they've gone on to find that forming close relationships has either been easier or more challenging?

    9. SPSpeaker28:17

       Many AuDHD women within, um, the community that I've served and, you know, supported, they have said the autism assessment is really traumatizing, and mainly because it brings up so many questions about how you are socially and relationally and how you communicate. And social rejection and bullying makes up the top reasons for what AuDHD women have said in a survey that I've given. That is the biggest trauma for them, you know, in their lives. And because it goes back to the piece where we are wired to connect and, you know, form friendships or relationships, because it is very regulating for the nervous system, you know, of a w- woman to be in connection with someone. But it's when it doesn't work out, you know, it breaks up or breaks down, that's when it can be really, really tough, you know, and it can then, you know, put the mirror back to us and, and make us wonder, is it our fault? You know, because [laughs] most of us actually turn into, turn to ourselves, you know, and blame ourselves for things not working out. And I do find that this journey can sometimes lead to a period of time when people can feel like they're a bit lost. Uh, one of the women in my cohort, um, in my program cohort, that she said yesterday that she was going through a existential questioning of who she is for a few months, you know, when she was questioning the AuDHD label, and everyone around her thought that she was depressed. But she says she's not depressed. She's just in some sort of, you know, spiritual questioning. You can wake up one day and see that your life is no longer the same as decades ago, and, and it can feel more momentarily destabilizing, and you try and look around you to find someone who could help anchor you, even if you have to pay someone to do it. [laughs]

    10. APAlex Partridge30:22

        [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker30:22

        You know, whether it's a coach or a therapist.

    12. APAlex Partridge30:24

        Mm.

    13. SPSpeaker30:24

        But it's quite important to have someone to, yeah, guide you through, through this journey.

    14. APAlex Partridge30:30

        After somebody gets a late AuDHD diagnosis, is there a general emotional set of stages that someone goes through? Um, so many people listening or watching, they probably either have an, an ADHD diagnosis, or they suspect that they have ADHD, and they might be on that path to, to recognizing that maybe there's more there, maybe autism plays a part too. What can they expect to go through once they understand that they-perhaps are autistic as well?

12. 30:57 – 35:50

    The Stages Of AuDHD Acceptance

    1. APAlex Partridge30:57

       Is, are there stages to that emot- emotional response?

    2. SPSpeaker30:59

       Definitely confusion to begin with. [laughs]

    3. APAlex Partridge31:01

       [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker31:01

       Just like, "What on earth am I dealing with?" Cognitive dissonance is a big one, just because either the labels of ADHD and autism doesn't fully really explain what AuDHD is. Then you're like, "Oh, what does it actually mean then?" You know, when it varies so much for everyone. Then there is that denial, [laughs] you know, "I don't think so." You know, and then you start to bargain, you know, with the world in terms of wanting people to understand you, and then you over-explain yourself, you overshare. You know, many, many people in this community, they end up, uh, pivoting their work [laughs] after they get diagnosed.

    5. APAlex Partridge31:41

       [laughs]

    6. SPSpeaker31:41

       And they, you know, they, they, they wanna come out of their corporate work. They, they, they wanna work, [laughs] you know, and they wanna create companies, um, being trainers and speakers and, you know, all these things, like, uh, but it's just in an effort to really try and excavate and understand what it means to them. And yeah, so that is that integration. But then before that even happens, you know, there's, there's more of that, that, that we talked about in a previous episode, where there is definitely that anger, you know, of being misunderstood, and, and then channeling that in, you know, your workplace or relationships that can sometimes backfire. Yeah.

    7. APAlex Partridge32:18

       Is that, I feel like you're in such a unique position doing the work that you're doing, Sam. Do you have any stories you could share with the audience of how somebody that, that you know, someone you've spoken to, they've received a late AuDHD diagnosis, and it's completely been completely transformative in, in turning their world upside down, in maybe a positive or a negative way?

    8. SPSpeaker32:39

       Yeah. So many people see the neurodevelopmental, um, condition that is autism and ADHD, not from the medical model. You know, we see it from the social model, where it is because of, uh, the way society is organized that, you know, has created these challenges. And I do believe that, that also as a woman with my, you know, ch- changes that happen in, in my life with hormones, I know how much biology, you know, really changes, um, how well I can present myself. And the positive side to it is that when you really learn to own your authentic strength, you know, and start to construct a life that is so aligned with who you are, you know, in every area of your life, whether it's your friendships, your relationships, and your work, you know, then you have less of those troubling years and troubling things that happen because you learn to become more discerning. But also, then you start to channel the strengths that you are born with, like that in- the ability to, you know, look at a big picture. That is traditionally ADHD trait, right? But then also the ability to zone in to detail and spot the patterns and link together, connect the patterns, you know, and connect the dots that were never connected by other people. And then you can use those strength to propel you into the next phase of your life. But first, there's this liminal state that we need to go through before we get there.

    9. APAlex Partridge34:16

       Do you think being a woman going through this process of deep excavation, is that a unique experience that differs from one of a man going through it?

    10. SPSpeaker34:24

        Potentially, because w- as, as a woman, you know, when we get to perimenopause, it's somehow a blessing [laughs] because when the sex hormones are dwindling, we have that less, um, will to mask. You know, we don't want to mask, and we can't actually filter our words. So it is almost like what they call a second spring, you know, perimenopause, where you are rediscovering who you are. It is, um, when you get the support for your hormones, you know, y- yeah, you are onto a better phase, you know, into the next phase. Most women get there through, [laughs] you know, the ADHD diagnosis, either starting medication, and then sorting out their hormones. But there is this temporary time where, before things stabilize, that they have to contend with. But once you get through that, then becomes a bit easier.

    11. APAlex Partridge35:20

        I wanna move on, Sam, to the most unpredictable part of the show.

    12. SPSpeaker35:23

        Uh-oh.

    13. APAlex Partridge35:24

        And that's Audience questions. And the, our lovely last chat and, and the ones before it, there were, there were many questions, and I chose the, the most in demand three, the top three questions from the audience.

    14. SPSpeaker35:33

        Mm-hmm.

    15. APAlex Partridge35:33

        Um, and they're inside the washing machine of woes. The questions are in a washing machine, because for me it represents memory loss-

    16. SPSpeaker35:38

        [laughs]

    17. APAlex Partridge35:38

        ... because I always [laughs] forget my clothes in the machine. Regular listeners will be sick of me saying that. [laughs]

    18. SPSpeaker35:45

        Mm-hmm.

    19. APAlex Partridge35:45

        Um, Tiimo app does help me to get the washing out of the machine.

13. 35:50 – 39:27

    Audience questions

    1. APAlex Partridge35:50

       In the washing machine this week, Sam, somebody has asked, "I got diagnosed with autism as well as ADHD last summer, and I'm still angry about it. I don't know why anger bubbles to the surface so much. Why could this be?"

    2. SPSpeaker36:05

       Well, maybe there's an emotion under anger, you know, the, a motivation underneath that, 'cause you, you, you are dealing with the anger where no one could see and no one could help, you know, earlier. And when people feel angry, they say the motivation behind that is a loss of agency. Um, that loss of agency came from actually feeling like, did we ever have a control of our lives when we didn't really know who we're dealing with, what we're dealing with?

    3. APAlex Partridge36:38

       Mm.

    4. SPSpeaker36:39

       And with this newfound knowledge, then hopefully they can regain the agency and, you know, turn that anger into contentment.

    5. APAlex Partridge36:47

       Brilliant. Very useful, Sam. Thank you so much. The second most requested question is, "I'm 65, and my whole family keeps telling me about this new AuDHD thing, but I think it's all just a fad. Everyone seems to have it these days. What do you think?"

    6. SPSpeaker37:05

       Um, I would say if you're 65, your family's asking you this, did they ever question it before, you know? Um, 'cause the challenges may be magnified because of menopause, and perhaps it is worth finding out, you know, just so that you can get yourself the right support.

    7. APAlex Partridge37:25

       Fantastic. Thank you very much, Sam. And just finally, the most requested question from the audience on the topic of AuDHD is, "I'm 73 and never been diagnosed, but everyone thinks I've got it. Is it too late for me to be diagnosed? Do you think it will make a difference to me? I felt lost my whole life."

    8. SPSpeaker37:48

       Well, then it will, because, um, 73 is not too late to get the diagnosis. If it means that you are going to live the rest of your life being more aware of who you are and could potentially be happier, you know, knowing, um, yeah, I, I definitely think there's a, there's a cause for kn- knowing and getting a diagnosis.

    9. APAlex Partridge38:13

       Fantastic advice. Never too late.

    10. SPSpeaker38:14

        [laughs] It's not too late.

    11. APAlex Partridge38:16

        And, and, uh, this has been truly insightful, absolutely fascinating. Um, once again, Sam, as always, huge thank you so much on behalf of everyone grappling to understand the many complexities and the push and pulls, uh, of ADHD and late diagnosis. Thank you so much.

    12. SPSpeaker38:30

        Sure. Thank you so much, Alex. And, uh, we were talking about the excavation and the late diagnosis, so I wrote a book called Tip of the ADHD Iceberg, which, um, go into all the surf- the, the layers below the surface, you know, of the iceberg. Um, I wrote this alongside my own journey of, um, excavating into who I am and what are the layers that make me, and it combines everything from our neurodevelopmental differences as well as, um, our physical and emotional and relational needs. So, and the hope is to be able to excavate and understand and then emerge with strategies, you know, to live and construct a life that is more authentic to you.

    13. APAlex Partridge39:13

        Fantastic. It sounds like an incredibly useful resource for anyone who, who is listening. I'll put the link to order in the description.

    14. SPSpeaker39:19

        Thank you. Thanks so much.

    15. APAlex Partridge39:20

        Um, once again, Sam, thank you so much.

    16. SPSpeaker39:21

        Right. Thank you, Alex. Really nice to talk to you. [outro music]

Episode duration: 39:27