No.1 Autism Expert: The Darkest Side Of Autism Nobody Talks About | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

1. 0:00 – 2:24

   Trailer

   1. SBSimon Baron-Cohen0:00

      One in four autistic people plan or attempt suicide. That's heartbreaking.

   2. APAlex Partridge0:05

      Women come to the podcast, and many ask me the question, how is it possible that they have reached adulthood simply believing that they're bad at life when, in fact, they were autistic?

   3. SBSimon Baron-Cohen0:16

      It's still the case that more boys and men get a diagnosis than girls or women. If you got your diagnosis early, it gives you a chance to kind of integrate autism into your identity, and you kinda grow up thinking, "Well, I'm autistic, but so what? I can just get on with my life, and people accept me for who I am." Whereas if you've got this disconnect, acting as if you're not autistic, that can affect your mental health. We did a study back in 2018 where we look at experiences of vulnerability more broadly. That could be being physically bullied. It could be being verbally bullied. And it turned out that autistic people reported much higher rates of

   4. APAlex Partridge0:56

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Sir Simon Baron-Cohen, welcome.

   5. SBSimon Baron-Cohen1:22

      Thanks for inviting me.

   6. APAlex Partridge1:25

      I can't do this.

   7. SBSimon Baron-Cohen1:26

      Right.

   8. APAlex Partridge1:27

      Sorry. Something's really bothering me.

   9. SBSimon Baron-Cohen1:30

      Okay, what is it?

   10. APAlex Partridge1:32

       There's, uh, an item on the shelf behind you that is not in the right place. One second. Sorry.

   11. SBSimon Baron-Cohen1:36

       Okay. Um, we c-

   12. APAlex Partridge1:44

       Sorry. That was the, what, the, the Lamborghini behind you was upside down. I just noticed it after I said hello. [laughs] Um, yeah.

   13. SBSimon Baron-Cohen1:51

       Distraction. Okay.

   14. APAlex Partridge1:53

       Yeah, I thought I was gonna be able to tolerate that through the interview, but it was gonna be on my mind the whole time. The shelves all being the way they are is what I'm used to, and is, you could-

   15. SBSimon Baron-Cohen2:02

       Yeah

   16. APAlex Partridge2:02

       ... say perhaps is a pattern that I know. I mean-

   17. SBSimon Baron-Cohen2:04

       Exactly

   18. APAlex Partridge2:05

       ... is, is that-

   19. SBSimon Baron-Cohen2:06

       Yeah

   20. APAlex Partridge2:06

       ... what just happened, is that an example of an, an interrupt that could-

   21. SBSimon Baron-Cohen2:09

       Probably, yeah

   22. APAlex Partridge2:10

       ... stress someone out? [laughs]

   23. SBSimon Baron-Cohen2:12

       Looks like it did, but it was, there was an easy fix.

   24. APAlex Partridge2:15

       Yeah. Yeah. I've been excited, Simon, to have this conversation with you. You've been studying autism for more than 35 years.

2. 2:24 – 1:19:49

   What Everyone Gets WRONG About Autism08:02 The Hidden Psychological Cost of Feeling Different10:01 Are You Born Autistic? Nature vs Nurture11:32 Why Autistic People Crave Intellectual Intimacy14:59 The Loneliness Nobody Talks About19:07 When Autistic Obsessions Become Superpowers21:20 The Darkest Side of Feeling Different23:56 The Shocking Link Between Loneliness and Addiction28:08 The Hidden Cost of Autistic Masking33:05 When Masking Makes You Lose Yourself38:33 Why Autistic Girls Are More Vulnerable to Abuse42:22 Why Autistic Brains See What Others Miss49:55 The Biggest Myth About Autistic Empathy01:17:30 An Emotional Letter to My Younger Self

   1. APAlex Partridge2:24

      What do you think human beings still fundamentally misunderstand about autism?

   2. SBSimon Baron-Cohen2:29

      I guess the, the, the, the understanding of autism has changed quite a lot over certainly my career. Um, so if we sort of wind the clock back to when I started, which was in the early '80s, um, autism was quite rare. Uh, the textbook said it was four in 10,000, um, whereas today, fast-forward, um, the, the prevalence is given as one in 30. They're very common.

   3. APAlex Partridge3:00

      Mm.

   4. SBSimon Baron-Cohen3:01

      So something's happened in those 30 or 40 years, which is remarkable in terms of the increase in diagnosis. But also back then, we tended to diagnose autism in people with a learning disability or what the Americans call an intellectual disability.

   5. APAlex Partridge3:18

      Sure.

   6. SBSimon Baron-Cohen3:18

      I think, again, the textbooks back then said three-quarters of autistic people also had a learning disability, which meant an IQ below the average range. And today it's the mirror image of that, that three-quarters of autistic people do not have a learning disability. So there's, I mean, that kind of gives you a, a little indication about who is getting diagnosed these days, that diagnosis has become much more accessible and available to, to anyone in the, in the population.

   7. APAlex Partridge3:49

      Who do you think is the biggest victim, or who's paid the biggest cost, the biggest price for that misdiagnosis or lack of understanding about what autism actually looks like? Is there a group of people-

   8. SBSimon Baron-Cohen4:01

      Yeah

   9. APAlex Partridge4:01

      ... who you think that have, have, that has had the biggest toll on?

   10. SBSimon Baron-Cohen4:04

       Right. I mean, I'm not sure that, um, what I just said reflects a misdiagnosis. I think we've sort of just moved the spotlight away from sort of people who have, you know, additional needs, um, like learning disability, um, to the, to the wider population.

   11. APAlex Partridge4:22

       Mm.

   12. SBSimon Baron-Cohen4:23

       Um, I mean, that's not to say there isn't misdiagnosis. Uh, so you hear stories all the time of people who struggle to finally get an autism diagnosis, and they might be, um, given other diagnoses along the way, like anxiety or depression, because they're struggling. But actually underlying that is, is undiagnosed autism.

   13. APAlex Partridge4:47

       So just to go back to basics for a moment, if, if you could view the world through an autistic person's brain or through their eyes for, say, 24 hours, what would shock you the most?

   14. SBSimon Baron-Cohen5:01

       Yeah. So obviously I'm having to, um, make all sorts of assumptions. Since I'm not autistic, I'm having to sort of imagine what would it be like to be autistic, and obviously I've met a lot of autistic people over my career. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that shock is, is really the, the thing to focus on, because, uh, autistic people think differently, and they process information differently, but I don't think we should be shocked by it. And maybe, again, that's a, you know, part of what's changed over the decades. That back then, 30 or 40 years ago, people sort of saw autism as something mysterious and, um, you know, apart from the rest of society. Um, there was a kind of intrigue about it. I think, you know, what's good about the fact that it's now much more common is that it's, it isn't a shock. I mean, it should just be seen as, as, as part of human diversity. And there's, today, hopefully there's a, there's an acceptance and a respect for the fact that we're all different. Um, and those differences shouldn't be shocking. They, they should just be quite ordinary.

   15. APAlex Partridge6:12

       Mm.

   16. SBSimon Baron-Cohen6:12

       But if we sort of try and anchor it a bit, you know, whereas in a mainstream classroom in a primary school, you might expect children to look up at the teacher's face, they're naturally making eye contact, um, and kind of focus on the teacher's voice and facial expressions, and maybe if they're put into little groups, uh, to be able to work together, collaborate. It could be that for an autistic person, you know, that sort of assumption that looking at faces is comfortable, uh, making eye contact is comfortable, uh, working in little groups is comfortable. M- you know, those things might not hold for an autistic child. There i- obviously, you can't generalize. Some autistic kids can cope with that, but it just gives you a little sort of sense of how there might be one or two kids in every primary school class who would prefer to learn differently and, um, you know, th- where schools might need to make adjustments or accommodations for kids who have different preferences, different, different learning styles.

   17. APAlex Partridge7:24

       I guess the understanding has fantastically and, and thankfully caught up, and now we have a much better understanding of the, the scope of autism. But as you said, for many years we haven't.

   18. SBSimon Baron-Cohen7:35

       Yeah.

   19. APAlex Partridge7:36

       And for many years, those kids in the classroom that you're describing were probably given corrective messages for the behavior that they were putting out into the world. Maybe they were s-

   20. SBSimon Baron-Cohen7:46

       Yeah

   21. APAlex Partridge7:46

       ... told to, "Look at me in the eyes when you're talking to me."

   22. SBSimon Baron-Cohen7:49

       Exactly.

   23. APAlex Partridge7:50

       And y- if you have that repeated and you're constantly told to stop fidgeting or make good eye contact or stop talking about that thing over and over again-

   24. SBSimon Baron-Cohen7:59

       Yeah

   25. APAlex Partridge7:59

       ... or why are you trying it like that? That's not how it's always been done.

   26. SBSimon Baron-Cohen8:03

       Yeah.

   27. APAlex Partridge8:03

       What, what are the m- m- mental health knock-on effects of having so many corrective messages-

   28. SBSimon Baron-Cohen8:08

       Yeah

   29. APAlex Partridge8:08

       ... in your early years?

   30. SBSimon Baron-Cohen8:10

       I think you've put your finger on it, that, you know, if you're, um, if you're expected to conform to a majority way of learning, um, and you're being told off and, and asked, "What's wrong with you? Why can't you, um, do, you know, behave in the same way as every other child?" Y- you know, the risk is that you start to internalize this sense of there's something wrong with me, and that can affect your self-esteem, your self-confidence. Um, you know, and it may be no surprise that what we find is the majority of autistic kids and adults end up with poor mental health. Uh, it may be as high as 60% or 70% depression or anxiety. Um, not wanting to sort of touch on a very gloomy topic so early in our conversation, but it's important, is that one in four autistic people plan or attempt suicide. You know, and that, that result, that figure came out of some research we did in Cambridge. Uh, and when we got that result, we were really shocked because, um, you know, autism, you know, it is a disability. It is also, um, a difference i- in how people see the world, but it shouldn't sort of be accompanied by a sense of life isn't worth living. You know, autistic people should be able to enjoy, um, a full life, um, and feel good about themselves. So the fact that one in four autistic people are feeling life is so bad that it's not worth living, I mean, that's heartbreaking. And, um, you know, our research group is actually very focused now on addressing that, that urgent priority.

Episode duration: 1:19:49