ADHD Chatter PodcastOxford Educated ADHD Expert Shares 3 Risks Of Undiagnosed Female ADHD | Sarah Warley
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65 min read · 13,293 words- 0:00 – 2:24
Trailer
- SWSarah Warley
Women that come to us who have sudden ADHD symptoms, they didn't have them before. Yes, it can be hormonally driven, absolutely it can. But they could also have, for example, the IUD coil. If it's a copper coil, they've got a source of copper in their body, and if they're born not able to excrete enough copper, that's gonna be terrible. Point is, there are biochemical imbalances, and you can treat those imbalances by giving the body what it needs in terms of vitamins, minerals, amino acids at high enough doses that it can rebalance itself.
- APAlex Partridge
Sarah Warley is an Oxford University educated global expert in neurodiversity specializing in drug-free approaches to better brain health. Sarah founded The Key Clinic to make life easier for those with ADHD without medications.
- SWSarah Warley
There are definitely biochemical imbalances, the majority of people who have ADHD. We now know that copper acts as a cofactor to an enzyme that takes dopamine, so that's the thing we all know we don't have enough of, and it pushes it into being norepinephrine, which is the thing that makes you nervous and anxious or angry. You know, it's the adrenaline-like response. If you have too much copper, especially free copper, your dopamine is gonna be pushed into this other pathway, and zinc has the opposite balancing effect on copper. So if you've got lots of zinc, you'll have lower copper, and if you've got lots of copper, the chances are your zinc's gonna be very low.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think that there's a treatment for the emotional side of ADHD?
- SWSarah Warley
I always start with-
- APAlex Partridge
Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited. I feel like so many people who listen and watch this podcast feel like they wanna go back and reassure the younger version of themselves that they're not broken, they're just different. Um, and although many of us obviously can't do that, I feel like this episode, the topics that we're gonna go-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... to are gonna provide a resource for the younger versions of many of the listeners. Before we get into all of that,
- 2:24 – 7:38
Sarah’s mission
- APAlex Partridge
what would you say your mission is in the world of ADHD, and why did you found The Key Clinic?
- SWSarah Warley
It's a good question. I think I felt that the mainstream approach to dealing with all sorts of neurodiversity was just not complete, and I wanted better answers. Um, I think a lot of people wait forever for a diagnosis thinking the diagnosis will somehow be the solution, and it isn't, and it's a culture of diagnose and discharge. And it seems that there are only two mainstream options on the table. It's either medicate or find ways to compensate, find ways around the problem, and I just wanted to know more than that. I wanted to understand more. I wanted to know what are the underlying root causes of these issues, really to swim upstream from the symptoms and understand them better, to be able to then tackle those root causes. And so that really was behind why I founded The Key Clinic. So I wanted to have lots of different evidence-based, um, therapies that could be real game changers, but all under one roof. Um, because I found also a lot of places that I'd experienced specialized in just one thing, and you know there's a saying, "If all you've got is a hammer, if your problem's a nail."
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
And I wanted there to be an objective way of looking and assessing symptoms and saying, "Well, look, what can we do more fundamentally at the, at the root cause level?"
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. What... You mentioned you either take medication or you start compensating.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
But have you noticed, 'cause you're in a quite unique position, right, what, what key or common ways do you see people compensating for their ADHD traits post-diagnosis?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. If they're not taking medication-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- SWSarah Warley
... how do they compensate for it?
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, generally, anyone with any kind of neurodiversity has to work harder, okay? So first of all, they've got that huge effort of masking that I know you've talked about before-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... and that's exhausting. I've never quite understood why, why it is people that aren't neurotypical have to go the distance to look neurotypical. Why can't the neurotypical people go the distance-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
... and meet them? I've never quite got that. So you've got that, and then things aren't coming in as easily as they are for someone who's neurotypical, so, and I'm sure we'll come on to talk about it, but you could have, for example, issues in the way in which you're hearing information, or you could have a very short attention span, so then you completely lose where you are. You're having to jump through many more hoops to be able to perform the same tasks as someone who's neurotypical. So, you know, we often get, for example, kids at school that have been told they've got slow processing, and I'm the first to say, "That does not mean they're not intelligent." It's got nothing to do with intelligence. It just means their brain is having to jump through these extra hoops before they get to even answer the question, and that's using up vital gray matter. So yeah, it's, it's hard work, isn't it? Well, the hard work-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... is fitting in a neurotypical world. That's the hard work.
- APAlex Partridge
Exhausting. It's like-
- SWSarah Warley
Exhausting. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Hard work is, is, is you know, would be a great book title if you were to describe the, um-
- SWSarah Warley
That's a good book title
- APAlex Partridge
... ADHD, the neurodivergent experience. I mean, masking-
- SWSarah Warley
I might borrow that. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] We- we're experts at playing a character called normal.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Like, if there was a-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... Oscar, a BAFTA for playing that character, we would be on stage accepting that award. Like, we're chameleons.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-mm.
- 7:38 – 13:34
The chemical explanation for ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
within the neurodivergent brain, the ADHD brain, is it, is it an imbalance of chemicals? What, what's going on in the brain that causes these, these-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... positives and, and some of the struggles?
- SWSarah Warley
Such a good question. Um, there are definitely biochemical imbalances in the majority, not everyone, but the majority of people who have ADHD. So there's somewhere called the Walsh Institute in the States. I don't know if you've heard about it or not.
- APAlex Partridge
No, no.
- SWSarah Warley
So this rather brilliant man, um, called, called Dr. William Walsh, Bill Walsh, and, you know, he's now 90, and he's spent the last 45 years of his life analyzing differences in biochemistry in people that have ADHD, and a- also people with mental health problems, and comparing them to a typical population. In fact, he began his work looking at violent young offenders in prison and saying, "What's different? What is there in their biochemistry? Is it all environment, or is some of it to do with biochemistry?" So he has amassed the biggest biochemical database anywhere in the world looking at these things, and he's got, you know, it's probably up to 7,000 now, people with ADHD in this chemical database. He found over two-thirds of them just happen to have this rather weird imbalance in that they have a low zinc-to-copper ratio. So he took bloods, and it meant they've got very low levels of zinc and very high levels of copper. Well, how is that relevant? We now know that copper acts as a, a cofactor to an enzyme that takes dopamine, so that's the thing we all know we don't have enough of, and it pushes it into being norepinephrine, which is the thing that makes you nervous and anxious or angry. You know, it's the, the adrenaline-like response. So if you have too much copper, especially free copper, your dopamine is gonna be pushed into this other pathway. And zinc has the opposite balancing effect on copper. So if you've got lots of zinc, you'll have lower copper, and if you've got lots of copper, the chances are your zinc's gonna be very low. So he found this imbalance, and it's, uh, what explains exactly the thing that these stimulant meds work on. So they work to increase the dopamine, but why haven't you got enough dopamine? Well, he's saying because you've got this imbalance.
- APAlex Partridge
Right.
- SWSarah Warley
There's, there's a problem with your metal metabolism. That's why. So we could actually address that at a different level, and we could say, "Why don't we just give your body what it needs to rebalance itself?" Instead of just saying, "Here's a medication we can slap on top," why don't we give your body what it needs to, to rebalance itself? So that's one. [laughs] Sorry, it's a long answer. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Just that, that imbalance of copper and zinc-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... is that caused, is that a genetic cause, or is that an environmental cause?
- SWSarah Warley
That's a really good question as well, because the, it can be a mixed answer. The majority of times, we think that it's a, a genetic predisposition, that some people are born just not very well able to excrete enough copper. Or other people, and we're gonna talk about them, are born not well enough able to hang onto the zinc that they've got in their diet. I mean, you can get exposures as well. So for example, we can have women that come to us, um, who have sudden ADHD symptoms, and they didn't have them before. Uh, yes, it can be hormonally driven. Absolutely, it can, and I know you've had a whole series on that, which I thought was fascinating and absolutely brilliant. But they could also have, for example, the, um, IUD coil. If it's a copper coil, they've got a, a source of copper in their body, and if they're born not able to excrete enough copper, that's gonna be terrible. Or someone that moved into a really old house, and there were copper water pipes in it. Well, that's gonna raise their level of copper, and they're gonna get very hyper. Children who go through a growth spurt, the body needs zinc to grow, so if it's using up all the zinc to grow, it's not gonna be using it to get rid of the copper, and the copper's gonna spike, and their behavior's gonna go downhill with that growth spurt. [laughs] So it's a really interesting equilibrium-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... there. Um, but the, but I mentioned there is another whole, um, type of biochemistry that's also associated accor- this is all according to the Walsh Institute, with pyrrole dis- uh, sorry, with, um, ADHD, and that's pyrrole disorder. So this is something that a urine test will tell you if you've got or not, and it's about 30% of the ADHD population, we believe, within, within that, uh, database. So what pyrroles are, again, this is a genetic snippet, something you're born with. It tends to run in families, and if you've got it, it means that even with the best diet in the world, you can't absorb or, or hang on to enough zinc, and you can't hang on to B6. You tend to urinate them out. NowB6, again, is a really important factor that's needed for lots of neurotransmitters. Um, and you don't have the zinc, so your copper's gonna spike. You end up with very high levels of toxic metal buildup and oxidative stress. And people with this, there are a whole series of traits that tend to go with pyroluria disorder, so being up late at night, unable to sleep, terrible people in the morning, um, no appetite in the morning. There are cravings of things like spicy foods, salty foods, often very pale for ethnicity, dark shadows under the eyes. These are some of the traits. Tinnitus is another trait. There are lots of traits that can go with it. Um, and if you have this, you're gonna need to go well above the reg- you know, RDA dosing of things like zinc and B6 to be able to normalize the level. But, you know, it's work that we specialize in doing, but you have to go very carefully, 'cause what you don't want is tons of zinc and a copper dump, which will make everything worse. So you have to sort of carefully find your way through it. But my point is, there are biochemical imbalances, and you can treat those imbalances by giving the body what it needs in terms of vitamins, minerals, amino acids at high enough doses that it can rebalance itself.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SWSarah Warley
So it's a very different approach, and, you know, Walsh's approach is, is very much to stay on your medication. Don't ever come off it unless your doctor tells you to. Want to be really clear on that. Um, but his results show about 80% of people managing to come down off that medication as a result of doing nutrient therapy.
- 13:34 – 15:45
How to manage the emotional side of ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
What about the emotional side of ADHD? Because I know you've just amazingly explained a lot of the chemical-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... causes behind it, but I feel like as a consequence of those chemical imbalances, you give off certain behaviors into the world that expose you to, to negative feedback, because the way you're acting and going about-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... your day is not, quote, unquote, "normal," and that exposes you to, to pushback. And the emotional knock-on effect of that can be a lot of shame, um, a lot of anxiety, a lot of isolating yourself because you become anxious. You learn that going out in the world is dangerous. It exposes you to criticism. Do you think that there's a, a, a treatment for the emotional side of ADHD? And I appreciate that's a big question, but, like, where would you start?
- SWSarah Warley
It's a, it's a huge question. Um, I always start with getting the chemistry right, if it's a question of chemistry, and there are other factors it can be. Because otherwise, I feel it's a l- little bit like sort of saying to someone who's an alcoholic, "Let's try and teach you to walk in a straight line before we take the alcohol out of the system," right? So it's got, like, let's sort out, you know, what the underlying issue is, and then let's see if we can work to rebuild that confidence and to get you to dare to trust yourself again-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm
- SWSarah Warley
... really in the world. Because the trouble is all of this is so interrelated. Um, our emotions are caused by our neurotransmitters, and, you know, the, the pathways, the, the stories, the narratives we tell ourselves in our brain are because our biochemistry was in a certain way, that, that we just get in a groove of thinking we're not good at something. We must be hopeless. We must have imposter syndrome. You know, we're not able to handle X, Y, and Z. And we tell ourselves these terrible, ingrained stories. And, I mean, the only way you can get outside of that groove is to step outside your comfort zone. And, and very often what we'll do is we'll try and rectify some of those underlying imbalances and then work with people, try to persuade them to dare to put a little toe in the water [laughs] again, to, to try things out. And, you know, 'cause you only expand that comfort zone by going outside it. So that's really, really how we do it. But of course, things can be far more complicated. You may need talking therapies as well-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... and, and a whole mindset shift to go
- 15:45 – 20:03
How hearing impacts ADHD
- SWSarah Warley
with it.
- APAlex Partridge
How does hearing impact ADHD?
- SWSarah Warley
So hearing's an area that people don't tend to think about very much, but it can have an impact on making a child more distractible, more inattentive, or an adult for that matter. Um, for example, most hearing tests are just testing for deafness, but what they're not testing for is the detail of how someone hears. And you might have someone with through-the-roof hypersensitive hearing, okay? So they could be listening to an overhead light bulb or, you know, what's happening three offices away, and they can be very distractible 'cause they're so busy tuning into that, um, that they're not really focusing right now on what's being said. Um, so that's one example.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Or you can even have what they call distortions in the hearing profile, and that just means for some people it's like listening on a mobile phone in an area of poor reception. It becomes quite hard to process when someone's talking at you, and your, your eyes glaze over, and you think, "What on earth has just been said to me?" And you're, often people aren't aware because the higher brain has to come in and unscramble what's come in as a mess. But again, that's a whole area that we work on. We, um, do hearing tests, find out exactly how someone is hearing, and then work to correct it with something called BrightBeats, which is a form of auditory integration training. So it works to help reduce areas of hypersensitivity or to smooth out, you know, all those sort of kinks in the hearing curve. And, you know, for some people, that can just make focusing, not being as distracted, being able to really listen to what someone's saying, just a lot easier. So it's just another factor that people often don't think about when they think about inattention.
- APAlex Partridge
I've heard some autistic people, and I don't know if there's truth to this, but they say they can hear electricity. Are, are, are there some background noise that a particular type of brain picks up where others don't?
- SWSarah Warley
Funnily enough, I have come across people [laughs] with that ability-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
... with that ability, and it can drive them absolutely nuts. Um, because the quietest thing we can test is at minus 10 decibels on an audiometer, and that's like, most people can't really hear at that level. But, you know, I've certainly had a lot of autistic people whose hearing is absolutely through the roof. They're hearing all sounds in both ears at minus 10 decibels, and everything's very overwhelming for them, and very often that can be, um, a-You know, why they might not want to be in a loud social setting or not want to be in a restaurant or, because it's just too much, why the hand dries enough to kill anyone.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
Um, so actually working, working to bring that within a normal level-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... can be the difference between functioning fine and not functioning fine. Um, and there was a beautiful documentary made about this in the States once called Sound of a Miracle, that was all about, um, a little girl, Georgiana Stelli, who had very hypersensitive hearing, and it's back in the '80s, she was institutionalized with autism. And, um, anyway, and her mother moved to France, the family moved to France, and there was this brilliant French ENT doctor who specialized in this work, and I'm cutting a long story short, she went through a, a course of auditory integration training, and the story has it that that evening she ran outside to go and play, and it was raining, and her father said, "Well, you know, what are you doing? Come in. You know, you hate the rain." And she said, "But it doesn't sound like a machine gun anymore."
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
You know, so he didn't cure autism, but he made the hearing part of it so much more bearable, and so it's just a factor people don't think about, but it can be important. So again, it's just another one of those facets we look into.
- APAlex Partridge
And is hyper-hearing, is that comparable to some stories I've heard where someone has a heightened sense of smell to the, to the degree that they can smell illnesses?
- SWSarah Warley
Mm, I don't know if the two are related. It's actually a different brain region.
- APAlex Partridge
Right.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, but I've heard about that. I know, it's amazing. There's an amazing woman they're doing-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... all this research with at the moment. I think it's just fascinating, and I've got a friend whose dog detected his cancer.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, you know, so yeah, that's a-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
... another, another whole podcast-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- SWSarah Warley
... that. Very interesting one, though.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think there's a way that a, an adult with ADHD or, or a child with ADHD, someone who's probably been made to feel like the way that they learn new things or take on new tasks or, or start a business, the way they do that is unusual, and that exposes them to comments from people s- like, "What are you doing? Why are you doing it that way? That's not the way you do it."
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, and because of that, they, they, they don't do it. They feel
- 20:03 – 23:50
How to embrace your differences
- APAlex Partridge
bad. I, how do you allow someone who does maybe operate slightly differently to really embrace the, the way they're doing it is differently, and that's not necessarily a bad thing?
- SWSarah Warley
I think there are two things that need to change. There's getting the person to be able to embrace that that's not a bad thing, and, you know, as, as the lovely Bear Grylls put it, failure is a stepping stone to success, right? [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
I've always loved that one. And it, and, but I think one of the biggest things is just the school culture that we have, you know, where we are judging people according to very neurotypical criteria, and actually quite Victorian criteria, really, sitting down, you know, logic, knowledge acquisition, being tested in timed circumstances, and you're being judged according to that. But that might not be the way in which your brain works, and it might not be, frankly, the definition of what success means in the future. So I think we need to broaden that out completely, our, our expectation and understanding of how it is one should be going about something. So it's as much societal change and educational change that's needed-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... as the individual themselves daring to try something. Um, but you know, one thing I'm always telling people is success isn't linear. You know, we somehow think, "Oh, you know, if I don't do this, then I'm not gonna get to that university, and then I'm not gonna get the best job, and then I'm not gonna get this," and that's not the way that it works. I mean, listen, you're a fabulous example, right? You're a fabulous example. You didn't follow a linear path, and you're very successful. You stepped outside it, and you dared to do it your own way, and I think there are certain professions that lend themselves to an ADHD brain, and certain ones that probably don't. And I would also argue the ones that probably don't, like being an accountant or maybe being a management consultant, or, you know, I don't know, doing something where you have to turn up on time and do everything according to a very particular way, I do think AI's gonna be doing a lot of those jobs in the future anyway. So it's, it's actually beginning to shift the thinking that you are very well-placed, really well-placed, to take advantage of the changes that are gonna be happening, and you only have to look at, you know, who are the people that are running the biggest companies in the world at the moment? They are all neurodiverse.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- SWSarah Warley
There isn't one neurotypical one amongst them.
- APAlex Partridge
But they found their passion, right? Those people-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... who, and I, I, I count myself very privileged in the fact that I've, I found my passion with LADbible, the social media brands. I found it again with the ADHD work.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
When I went to university, I got kicked out, but I can reflect back now, and for me, even going to university was masking.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Like, I was doing stuff because I thought that's what normal, again, quote-unquote, "normal people do," and I was doing it to fit in and probably to please various family members. Like, and it took me a lot of trial and error to realize what was masking, what was truly Alex, what was-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... a coping mechanism to fit in, and what was r- me really following my passion. What steps can someone take? 'Cause I've always said it's really important to follow your, or listen to your knee-jerk reactions.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Like, your, your body gives off signals of passion before your subconscious masked version has a chance to catch up. And what I mean by that is, is like, for example, if you're reading a, a, a newspaper and you see an advert for a musical theater role, and you, you, y- you, you get incredibly excited for auditioning for that musical theater role, but then you remember that your parents wanted you to be a doctor-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... or you were told something on the playground when you were younger-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... that goes against that passion for that musical theater role, and you suppress that excitement, and you close the paper, and you ignore it. That's a true indicator, I think, of, of, of your, your inner child almost screaming out, trying to remind you of what you, you generally are interested in, before the years and years and years of masking had-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm, mm
- APAlex Partridge
... a chance to camouflage your true self.
- 23:50 – 29:30
How to unmask and find your true self
- APAlex Partridge
How can someone take steps to, to remove that camouflage, to find their true passions?
- SWSarah Warley
I mean, I, I think what you've just said actually applies to the whole world, and especially most children today. I think we are very good at shoehorning them into being in a certain way and micromanaging every moment of their day and pushing down a particular direction. And what we've lost is the ability, the freedom just to go out and play. I mean, Jonathan Haidt, the sociologist, has been writing about it, his book The An- The Anxious Generation, he's been talking about the fact that we've taken that freedom away, um, and we're micromanaging, we're hovering. So kids never have the opportunity to go out and play and enjoy themselves and actually be bored enough to discover what it is they're interested in.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
They don't have time to even think about what that is. Um, and I think then what happens is you get pushed into a certain direction, as you said, and, and then especially if you've been masking things, it's even worse, and you end up in a point in time, you think, "Well, what is the endpoint? If I do manage..." If you had managed to carry on and go through university, what would the endpoint of that would- would have been? Would have been you being in a job that you'd be miserable in. You know? That would have been the best you could have hoped for, had you conformed-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... and really shoehorned yourself into that position.
- APAlex Partridge
Exactly.
- SWSarah Warley
You think, "Well, so that's a lifetime of misery." So if someone is in that position, and I think there are many, many people in that position, how can you rediscover who you really are? Because you've learnt, you've- you've learnt to shut off those feelings. Um, there's a lovely little book called Ikigai. Have you read it?
- APAlex Partridge
No.
- SWSarah Warley
It's a little Japanese book. It's this thin, and it's about-
- APAlex Partridge
Ikigai
- SWSarah Warley
... the, the Japanese idea of Ikigai, and it means, um, having a purpose.
- APAlex Partridge
Thought my partner would probably call me [laughs] .
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs] That's when you don't shower.
- APAlex Partridge
Right [laughs] .
- SWSarah Warley
But it's not that kind of icky guy, it's another kind of Ikigai. It's, you know, but it, it means purpose.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And it's a theory as to, one of the theories as to why Japanese people can live so long as they do, 'cause they've got this sense of purpose. They've got a sense of being valuable. And figuring out what on earth your Ikigai, your purpose is, in like what you were put on this planet to, and feeling good about one thing that, that you're doing and you're doing well, is very hard. I think the closest you can come to it if you've lost your way is making sure you've got enough downtime to figure out what the things are you do that put you in a state of flow. You know when you're in a flow state and, and you don't even know time's going by, and you're just kind of enjoying yourself? Because the chances are that flow state will be very close to what it is you were put on this planet to do [laughs] , to rediscover it. Um, but yes, I think trying to develop emotional awareness, what you actually feel-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... about something, unpicking that moment, how does it make me feel when I'm doing this? Am I actually forcing those feelings down and making myself do it, um, or does it come naturally to me? And we've lost that. We don't allow ourselves that.
- APAlex Partridge
It's hard though, isn't it? Because you could do self-awareness exercises like sitting on your bed at the end of the day and asking yourself some basic questions, like, "What happened today that made me happy?"
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
"What happened today that made me sad?" Things like that. Um, but sometimes the mask is so thick you don't even realize, and the answer to those questions are, you're not being honest with yourself in those moments.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
And, but even if you are being honest, there's still, there's still factors in everyone's lives, right, that creates complications and, and this isn't as easy as it sounds. Even if you follow your passion and go to that musical theater role, the, the, the fact is your parents want you to be a doctor, and that's gonna cause family conflict, for example. Like, how does one prioritize their own journey following their own passion and, and almost, not disregard, but put their own wants first, rather than those closest to them that might be actually steering the ship?
- SWSarah Warley
When you were saying that, do you know what sprang to mind? Have you ever watched that Queen movie all about Freddie Mercury?
- APAlex Partridge
Yes, of course, yeah. Brilliant film, yeah.
- SWSarah Warley
Do, do you like, do you remember the bit where his dad is nagging him to death to be an accountant-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes, very well
- SWSarah Warley
... and he just wants to be a fabulous, crazy musician?
- 29:30 – 30:50
Tiimo advert
- APAlex Partridge
A quick word from our sponsor with a riddle. Can you guess the answer? Only one in 20 people can. What has two eyes, is smaller than a fingernail, lives inside your phone, and improves every element of your life and helps you remember all those social plans you made because you didn't know how to say no? Well, it's Tiimo App, of course, and I'd be lost without it. Literally. I'd never had made it to the studio. Tiimo App has organized me in a way no amount of notebooks ever could, and it's improving, evolving with your needs. And now it's even more simple with the AI co-planner. Tiimo offers an incredible conversational intelligence service, making it even easier to use. A simple voice prompt when you have to plan something or a task pops into your mind, and the new AI planning assistant hears it and smoothly transcribes it into an easily digestible list of instructions to guide you through. Give it a go, and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note, though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not the smartphone. Back to the episodeSo interesting. I think people with ADHD are brilliant entrepreneurs. I just, I d- truly believe that.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Um, [lips smack] but I think you have to have the courage to, to almost push back against the fear of the criticisms that you might get from-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... those nearest to you.
- 30:50 – 36:58
How to spot an ADHD adult
- APAlex Partridge
How else do you think you can spot a neurodiverse adult, someone who has been misunderstood when they were younger? Um, what, how does that manifest as an adult? What behaviors might give that away?
- SWSarah Warley
Well, to talk about those behaviors, I'd probably have to talk about some of the other, [laughs] other underlying contributing factors to an ADHD presentation. But, um, first of all, you've got the emotional, the behavioral that you talked about. So you've got the, you know, difficulty with criticism, imposter syndrome, lacking self-confidence. You've got all of that. But I would also be looking at other things, like how they move. I'd be looking at their posture. I'd be looking [laughs] at your posture. I'd be looking at, um-
- APAlex Partridge
What's my posture telling you? [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs] Well, actually, I was look- you know, I mean, obviously the, the fidgeting, and the, you know, I'd be looking at that. I'd be looking at how someone sits. I'd be looking at how they walk. I'd be looking at whether or not, you know, they recoil from loud sounds. Um, there are loads of other facets which I'd be looking at, um, that can give hints as to whether there are other underlying things that have made life harder than they should be. So I'm gonna just to touch on briefly some of those, 'cause we talked about biochemistry.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
There are other factors as well. So if you've got a much more inattentive, what used to be called ADD form of, of ADHD, um, what we found, I guess, over, uh, all our, you know, decades of clinical experience, is very often that's got much more to do with something called retained primitive reflexes. Have you ever heard of that?
- APAlex Partridge
No.
- SWSarah Warley
You know, reflexes. [laughs] Okay.
- APAlex Partridge
Well, I've heard of reflexes, but not reten-
- SWSarah Warley
Re- so re- so primitive ones. That basically means baby reflexes. So these are reflexes that are there. We all have them, and they're there in the first year of the baby's life, and what happens is one reflex comes up, gets stimulated, and then it integrates, and then the next one comes up, and then it integrates, and the next one comes up. And it's a set pattern for all of us in the first year of life, and it creates a lot of the wiring in the brain that we need later on in life for things to happen easily. It's like turning on the autopilot. Now, typically, by the time a baby reaches their first birthday, these reflexes have gone. So a doctor will test them in the first couple of months of life, and then they should have gone if you test them at one. But we don't test them. We just assume they've gone, and we send someone off to school, and we think they're neurodevelopmentally ready for school. But nine times out of 10, if you've got someone with learning behavioral difficulties and you test them, you find they've got these little baby reflexes. So they've got these little immaturities that should have gone, that haven't gone, and they mess things up. They mess up your balance, your coordination, your eye tracking. They can make you fidgety. They interfere with your concentration. Um, so they can create a lot of the ADD symptoms, um, because they, they just make it much more difficult to sit still and concentrate and process, you know, information. So the way that you get rid of those... In fact, there are two in particular I should speak to if it's not too much, 'cause I think they're very relevant to ADHD. So one is called the Moro reflex, and it's the early infant startle reflex. So I don't know if you've seen little babies, if there's any change to their environment, they'll do this. They'll go [gasps] and their arms and their legs will go out, and they'll hold their breath, and you'll think, "Oh my God, what are they gonna do?" And then they cry, and they cling on. That's the second bit of the movement. And when they're doing it, tons of adrenaline floods their system, and there's a load of oxygen. Now, it's an alarm cry. It's a startle response. If there's any change in that baby's environment, they're gonna get this kickstart. Parent's gonna be alarmed, alarm cry it, and they're gonna cling on. So you can see evolutionarily, it's great. But it should have gone by about three, four months of age. The amount of adults I have seen and we have treated that have had a fully retained Moro reflex... Now, if you have this retained into adulthood, makes you permanently anxious, okay? Huge dislike of criticism. Sounding familiar?
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, it makes, actually, processing change can be quite difficult. You have lots of what they call sensoryism, so you're hypersensitive to light, sound, touch, taste, textures, all sorts of things. Um, so it puts you in a permanent anxiety response, and very often mood swings go with that. Impulsivity goes with that. So you can get rid of this by doing neurodevelopmental exercises. So you have to do them every day for a period of time until you've given that reflex enough stimulation, it goes. And when it's gone, it's gone for life, and so then you're able to function in a completely different way. And we've worked with so many adults with terrible anxiety problems, um, ADHD problems, phobias, and actually at the root, root of it all was this particular little baby reflex that was messing things up. Um, and there's another called a spinal galant that makes you very sensitive to waistbands, people that like to cut labels out and all that sort of thing, and it makes you fidgety. You can't sit comfortably on a chair without squirming and moving. It interferes with auditory processing, and in kids it's also linked to bed-wetting. And again, you get rid of it. You don't have to carry that round for the rest of your life. If it didn't go when it should have gone, you can get rid of it now. So those are other factors people don't think about when they think of, um, ADHD or poor concentration.
- APAlex Partridge
That first one you mentioned-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... what was that called?
- SWSarah Warley
The Moro, after Dr. Moro.
- APAlex Partridge
Dr. Moro.
- SWSarah Warley
It's the Moro reflex, M-O-R-O.
- APAlex Partridge
Right. And you said there were some exercises you could do to, to-
- SWSarah Warley
Get rid of it
- APAlex Partridge
... get rid of it.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
What do those look like?
- SWSarah Warley
So they're called neurodevelopmental exercises, and they've been researched to death. Um, they were developed by the, something called the INPP over 40 years ago, and what we specialize is, at, at doing sort of programs of slow controlled neuromotor movements. So it's like a little baby. At that particular one, it's a slow-motion startle movement that you do, and you do it enough that it's had enough stimulation, and it goes. And as I said, it can be a se- I mean, I've seen people come off pr-... psychiatric medications for anxiety as a result of g- in fact, one was a doctor who came off [laughs] a psychiatric medication because she didn't need it anymore, 'cause she didn't have this ongoing anxiety anymore. Um, so this is what I mean by swimming upstream from symptoms. 'Cause y- you know, you can pop a pill, or you can take the time to find out what's actually going on underneath.
- 36:58 – 38:31
Risks of ADHD medication
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think some of the risks are of the sort of standard stimulant ADHD medication?
- SWSarah Warley
So risks. Um, I'm- I'm sure most people that are taking them are probably already pretty well aware of the risks, but I think perhaps one thing people aren't aware of is if you look at the way in which stimulant meds work and the way cocaine works, it's exactly the same. [laughs] It's probably quite shocking to people. But it- it works on the dopamine. It- it inhibits dopamine reuptake in the sinuses, so they work exactly the same way. The only difference is that one works much quicker than the other, and is therefore more addictive. Okay?
- APAlex Partridge
And that's cocaine?
- SWSarah Warley
Let's hope so.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah, well, put it this way. One is being prescribed to, uh, uh, positively, um, admired and prescribed for- for children, and the other will put you in jail, right? But actually, the- the- the mechanism by which they're working is the same. So there are side effects of taking this. Um, you know, and things like changes in sleep patterns, changes in appetite, um, anxiety. There can be tic disorders. Um, you know, personality changes. So most people are very familiar with those. And then longer term, in children, it's linked to stunted growth by, you know, one to two centimeters, and a small but- but real risk of a sort of psychotic breakdown as well. So I'm not... I'm sounding terribly anti-meds. I'm not terribly anti-meds, and I think there are times when they are absolutely necessary, but my message is check out all these other areas first. Do what you can to address the underlying contributing factors before taking this as a sort of panacea forevermore, because it may be that you don't need that in the
- 38:31 – 41:44
Why unfulfilled potential is a tragedy
- SWSarah Warley
end.
- APAlex Partridge
Why do you think unfulfilled potential can be such a tragedy?
- SWSarah Warley
Well, I think for anyone, whether, you know, neurodivergent or not, it's a tragedy, isn't it? If you can't live your... You know, we're only here once. We want to live our lives as our best self and feel useful, feel of value to people. Um, and I always think of- of, you know, it may just be more a question of context than your particular traits. So, you know, there's this fantastic story that you may or may not know of someone called Gillian, who was a little girl, eight years old, in the kind of mid-1930s. And teachers were complaining at school, because guess what? She was fidgety. She was inattentive. She was distracting the other kids in the classroom. And, you know, at the time, ADHD didn't exist as a diagnosis. But they said, "It's probably some sort of learning difficulty," and they advised her mother to take her up to London and, um, get her assessed by a psychiatrist. And so, you know, Mother Julie went to London, took- took little Gillian up there, and she was sitting in one of those dark oak paneled, scare, rather scary rooms I always find on Harley Street, and there was the psychiatrist looking at her. And he said to the mother, "Actually, can we stand outside the room for a second? I- I just want to ask you a few questions, if that's all right." And the mother thought, "Well, yes, that's fine." And little Gillian had been told to sit on her hands and try and pay attention. She was trying to sit there. And as the doctor went out, he flipped the switch on the radio, and there was some music playing. And so they were standing outside the door, and it was a glass door, and they were looking in. And little Gillian started dancing, and she started leaping around the room, and she started dancing on the desk. And the psychiatrist looked through the window at her and said to her mother, "Your daughter's not sick. There's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer." Um-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And that little girl then ended up going to dance school. She ended up at the, um, Royal, uh, Royal Ballet, and she became principal ballerina, and she from there migrated into, um, being in charge of choreography and- and producing musicals. She produced over 60 of the leading West End and Broadway musicals, including Cats, including Phantom of the Opera. There is a theater named after her. Her name is Dame Gillian Lynn. So I just think that's such an important message-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... for people with ADHD, which is sometimes it's to do with the context you find yourself in, um, as to where your value lies. And maybe if you're feeling not valued, you're just sitting in the wrong context. Maybe you're doing the wrong job or you're in the wrong area, and you need... It's nothing wrong with you. It's your context that's the problem. So let's find the right one for you.
- APAlex Partridge
Absolutely. I have heard that story before.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
And only because it comes to my mind because I, Phantom of the Opera is my favorite West End show.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
And I've seen it about 16 times.
- SWSarah Warley
Wow.
- APAlex Partridge
And there's a big picture of Gillian Lynn in the foyer. Um, and I think of that story every time I- I- I go to see that show, and it's so true. The value of something completely changes depending on its environment. Her value in the, in a classroom, in her mind at least, would've been low-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... because of the feedback she was getting. But put her on a stage-
- SWSarah Warley
Exactly
- APAlex Partridge
... put her in an environment that caters to her brilliance, and- and she changed the world.
- SWSarah Warley
So I think we need to remember that, don't we? Let's change our context. Let's not beat ourselves up anymore.
- 41:44 – 43:38
The risks of NOT taking ADHD medication
- APAlex Partridge
Sarah, what do you think the risks are of NOT taking ADHD medication? Could ADHD medication sometimes be the lesser of two evils?
- SWSarah Warley
I think totally, yeah. Because if you've got someone who's very ADHD and they don't take the medications, you've got the risk of, you know, sort of risk-taking behavior, potentially addictions in the future, you know, alcoholism, all that sort of thing. So it's better to do something. Um, it's just that my view is very much take the time. You're worth it. You're worth the time and energy of trying to figure out what some of the underlying contributing factors are. And if you've gone through all of those and you've checked out the diet and the exercise, and you've made sure it's not a hormonal problem and there are no retained reflexes, and your hearing's working the way it should, and you've checked off all of those things, then look at the medication.
- APAlex Partridge
Copper and zinc we were talking about earlier.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Do your levels of copper and zinc go up or down during pregnancy?
- SWSarah Warley
So actually, copper goes up 200% when you're pregnant, so it shoots through the roof. And for most people that's fine, because after they've delivered the baby, their body's able to excrete that copper. But again, if you're one of these people with a sort of ADHD-type predisposition and you're not very good at excreting copper, then it hangs around in the system. And, you know, that can be a contributing factor to postpartum depression. Um, so we think there potentially is a link between that and ADHD. And, you know, sometimes we see, for example, a, a girl when she starts puberty, um, and her estrogen goes up. Estrogen generally will increase dopamine levels and serotonin levels. But if you have this problem with copper, um, it can actually have the reverse effect, and it can reduce that in certain individuals. So that, going on the, the pill can have an effect. Um, so yes, if there's suddenly an onset and it coincides with a hormonal shift, then it's definitely worth looking into
- 43:38 – 49:19
The evolutionary purpose of ADHD
- SWSarah Warley
that as well.
- APAlex Partridge
You studied experimental psychology at Oxford University. What did that experience teach you about the evolutionary purpose of ADHD?
- SWSarah Warley
Again, that's such a good question. First of all, I just want to say everyone is neurodiverse at Oxbridge, okay?
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
I don't think there'd be any dreaming spies if it wasn't as neurodiverse. And, you know, people are able to, to think differently and definitely act differently. [laughs] Um, so I was very obsessed with evolution. It's one of my favorite, favorite subjects. And actually, at the time, this really dates me, it was all about The Selfish Gene, and I was all over The Selfish Gene. And, you know, the theory behind that is that rather than, um, it being all about us, it's actually about we're gene machines, and we want to perpetuate our genes within the gene pool. So it's looking at a group structure, a sort of, a structure of a family. And, um, I think the role that ADHD plays is really, really important evolutionarily because, you know, these are the people that would have eyes in the back of their head, that would be on the lookout all the time if there was any sort of imminent threat to that particular tribe. They would be the ones that would go the distance and maybe discover a new food source that no one else had thought about. Um, so really important. And, and without the ADHD brain, um, your tribe would be at a disadvantage, and collectively, the genes in the gene pool would not be doing as well. So yes, it absolutely has a reason and a purpose.
- APAlex Partridge
The, I absolutely agree. I mean, ADHD people, we were the ones keeping watch over the camp.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. [laughs] Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Staying up all night, stoking the fire.
- SWSarah Warley
That's it.
- APAlex Partridge
And I suppose being part of a tribe, part of a group, like, you fear being excluded from it for a, for a whole ton of reasons.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
But you might, you might change your personality, do you think, to avoid being kicked out? And I suppose-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... does that therefore mean masking has some kind of evolutionary function?
- SWSarah Warley
Totally, yeah. Because we evolved. I mean, a very important part of our survival is being part of that group, being an accepted part of the group. So yeah, we've learnt to mask. We've learnt to do what we need to do to be able to read other people's signals, to be able to, to fit in. Um, and, you know, children spend their lives, especially their teenage years, just wanting to fit in. And I think this is what's so pernicious about the culture we currently have of canceling people. I mean, even the term canceling I find abhorrent. Because in effect, what you're doing is excluding someone from that group, and that's what animals do if they want to kill another animal. They exclude it from the group. That's what monkeys do, and then the monkey that's on his own will die. And, you know, we're getting these terrible stories of people committing suicide at university. There was a kid at Oxford who committed suicide. He'd been excluded. He'd been canceled. Um, so it's terrifying. I think it's like a sort of mob mentality. I know I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but that's the flip side of masking. It's saying it's really important that we're part of a group, um, and it's terribly damaging to exclude someone from that group.
- APAlex Partridge
And do you think that's heightened in the ADHD community when, uh, it's a community of people that are probably used to feeling othered, very much feeling different and misunderstood, and therefore, is there a risk that that difference might put them at risk of being ostracized, excluded from social groups?
- SWSarah Warley
Yes. [laughs] Actually, I'm, I'm only smiling because someone sprung to mind when you were saying that, who's a, a really good friend of my eldest son's, and he doesn't mind me talking about him, Theo, because he's done a beautiful testimonial, uh, uh, for us. But he managed to get canceled, I think, twice when he was at Oxford. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- SWSarah Warley
And I think it was all within very short succession. Um, and he's very ADHD, you know, and he's exceptionally well-meaning, and he's a lovely guy, but he just kept putting his foot in it or saying something he wasn't meant to say and, you know, and, um, being, being canceled as a result. Um, and we ended up doing a, a lot of, a lot of work with Theo when he became... Actually, it's quite interesting. He became very, very depressed in his last year at Oxford, and he was always very high-achieving, very motivated. He was a rower. You know, he was always very capable, pushed himself very hard. But he had that ADHD perfectionist thing going on, right? He was one of the, the people that just, "I have to do everything to absolutely the point of excellence," until he couldn't cope anymore, until he virtually broke. And he dropped out after taking a couple of exams, and then he, I mean, he ended up in his bed at home, literally unable to function, and I think was under the care of a couple of psychiatrists who were throwing medications. I keep saying throwing. Prescribing medications. But all I know is he was on a stimulant and an antidepressant at the same time, which doesn't make a lot of sense. But he was in a terrible state, and he was saying, you know, "I just, I don't think there's much, you know, point of me being here. I'm a waste of space." And we did our work. We did our tests, and we found very predictable, really predictable biochemical imbalances. So he had exactly the hallmarks of ADHD, and he also had something called undermethylation, which pushes you into a, can push you into a deep depression and perfectionist cycle. So again, he, he did exactly what he was asked, and it's all about compliance. But he was so, felt so-... bad and so desperate. He, you know, changed his diet, took exactly the supplements that were needed, and did brilliantly well. You know, he not only went back the next year, he came out with a, with a first in Russian and Arabic I think it was, and, and said, "You know, the difference is I now understand my own health, and I get the levers that I need to pull to stay on top of it, and I know when I'm slipping, and I know-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... what I need to take." So it's giving people the keys. It's saying, "That's in your control now, your own health, your own wellbeing," rather than it just being prescribed for you.
- 49:19 – 52:20
When does masking become a problem
- APAlex Partridge
Just with masking, when do you think masking becomes a problem? Because on the one hand, you, you mask because you want to fit in-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... and not be excluded from a group. You don't want to experience the pain you were just experiencing. But on the other hand, we're talking about wanting to unmask and be our true selves-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... and find our passions. When does one know if you're masking too much? When does masking become a problem?
- SWSarah Warley
I think there are time for really honest and open conversations [laughs] especially with your nearest and dearest. So for example, you know, if you're blowing out your girlfriend, um, on dinner dates or, you know, important events, 'cause you don't know because there's now or there's not now, and so you've forgotten that it's a not now.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
Um, i- you know, being able to sit down and just explain that this is a difference, and it's not that I love you any less. It's not, and it's not that you're any less important to me. You really are, but this is a fundamental difference, and you can't understand that unless you're wired in the same way that I am, and sometimes literally sitting down, whoever it is that's in your life, and, and explaining it. And, you know, and sometimes when you do that, people then tick the box and think, "Ah, okay, I've got it. Right. Well, in that case then, um, we're gonna handle this situation differently." And I think the more of those conversations that take place the better because society does need to change, and it needs to become a lot more tolerant. I think we're very intolerant as a society at the moment. Um, we need to just become a lot more tolerant-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... of difference. And, and I'm using that word tolerant. Celebrate, harness the power of, realize that it is actually a gift.
- APAlex Partridge
I think it's so important. I mean, it's so true what you said, and to really, like, pay attention. As soon as you notice there's a massive contrast between how you're acting around certain people compared to how you'll react, how you're acting when you're on your own. I think my biggest indicator-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... of when I'm, like, not masking is when I'm on my own and when I know no one is watching me.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
If I'm just left alone at home, and I'm, what am I choosing to watch on the TV?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
When it's literally, there's no external influence. When I'm driving on my own, um, and there's music playing, I am singing.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
My ha- like, I turn into the, uh, drummer.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Obviously, my hands, you know, but, but if someone's in the car, and I get I can't do that around certain people, but I know what I like to do when I'm on my own, and when that is so different to how Alex presents in other situations, then I think that can create quite clear optics on the-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... on the contrast.
- SWSarah Warley
You see, I think that's really interesting, and you have painted in your own head an expectation of which person you can do that in front of and what they will find acceptable or not. You might be surprised. I mean, I'd love a good singalong in a, in a car and playing. In fact, frankly, I do it at the top of my voice anyway. Um, but you might be surprised. You might be surpri- you may have painted yourself a little bit into this corner by thinking that other people won't find it acceptable, and they might. They might find it interesting and fun and not boring.
- 52:20 – 54:03
What is ‘normal’ human behaviour
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think is normal? Like, what is... It's such a big question, isn't it? What is normal human behavior versus what is perhaps non-normal human behavior? Where do we even go with, with that conversation?
- SWSarah Warley
So the longer I live, I don't think... But what is normal? Does normal even exist? If it does exist, I've yet to meet it, and it certainly isn't in my family. I mean, who is normal? What is nor-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
Normal sounds very boring to me, and I don't know if that's just me, but I, you know, I don't know what it means. Do we mean adhering to a sort of very conventional norm? And what is that norm, and who's decided what that norm is? And what makes that so acceptable? I don't know, but I do feel strongly that it's really unfair that people who are more on the peripheries of the bell curve, shall we say, are the ones that are having to do all the... So they're dealing with all that anyway, and then they've got to do all the conforming to try and fit in with the mainstream. I think particularly with autism, by the way, I, I just, I find that extraordinary when we're the lunatics and the nutters, and actually they're the ones that are completely rational and sane and kind of doing-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... things in a very predictable way, and we're saying, "No, you've got to change and be more like us." It's like, why? Wh- when did that become a thing? Um, I don't know if I even answered your question, did I? [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] I mean, basically, yeah. You take away the traits of ADHD or many neurodivergent traits, and I think you're right. You, you get somebody that I've never met [laughs] in my life.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah, I've never met them. I, I genuinely can't say I know anyone who is normal.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And maybe it's because I tend to be attracted more to people who are a little interesting. I don't know. But aren't most people?
- APAlex Partridge
Well, yeah. You certainly-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- 54:03 – 57:01
Is there anything about ADHD that we don’t understand
- APAlex Partridge
I mean, what do you think, is there anything about ADHD that you don't understand, that you still don't get?
- SWSarah Warley
Oh, gosh. I think there are so many things we don't understand about ADHD. So for example, with autism, they're now saying, oh, there are actually nine completely different types of autism, and I think we're just scratching the surface with ADHD. And, you know, the point is no one ever fits neatly into one box, which is why I have this issue with a very formulaic, one-size-fits-all approach to treatment for ADHD, which is medication or find ways to compensate. Um, people can have a little smorgasbord of this and that and different types of neurodiversity all blended together. If you've got AuDHD, um, I mean, there's some evidence from the Autism Research Foundation in America that taking stimulant meds can make it worse. SoI just think we're, we're at the very foothills of our understanding. Um, and I, I just really, really hope that not only will we take the time and energy to investigate our own bio-individuality, but that attitudes, societal attitudes will start to shift, and we'll realize what a great value this is gonna be, because these are gonna be the people that are rewriting the future, you know? And thank goodness, 'cause frankly, we need a bit of rewriting of the future.
- APAlex Partridge
What traits of autism do you think... And I know this is just-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... I don't know the details of the study. I don't know if you do, but what, what traits of autism do you think could get worse? Because I think, I don't wanna stereotype, but I think I have autism too, and I, I can see it being very internalized. Like, I, I see things incredibly clearly, and if I take a... And sometimes they can be bad, right?
- SWSarah Warley
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Sometimes I don't wanna focus on certain things.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
And the autism comes with considerable struggles, intrusive thoughts, ruminating, horrible spirals-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... that cause problems in relationships.
- SWSarah Warley
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
And if I take a pill that increases my focus and sharpens that image inside my head, like I, I don't know the study you're talking about, but I can kind of s- see that that could be a, a, a pretty bad outcome.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah, I mean, I, I think there are overlaps, but there are also a lot of differences. Um, so I mean, you know, the study I was referring to, it was really, it was, um, a questionnaire that was given to 25,000 parents of autistic children, and they said, "Out of everything you've tried, what's helped? What hasn't helped? What's made it worse?" And it was just interesting that the first page was all about medication, and they had stimulant meds, and more people got worse on it than got better if they were autistic.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And actually, it was things like gluten, casein-free diet or, um, uh, you know, things like giving very particular supplements, working on gut microbiome. Those were the things that tended to lead to the biggest improvements. So yeah, I, I think I don't have the answer to that, 'cause there isn't a study precisely on that, but there are definitely overlapting, overlapping factors in ADHD and autism, and there are other things that are very, very different. Um, but again, that's why I think just blindly saying, "Hey, take this and let's see what happens"
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... is never a great strategy, is it really?
- 57:01 – 58:01
Surefire ways to manage ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
Do you have any surefire ways to manage ADHD?
- SWSarah Warley
So I guess my advice would be, first of all, take the time, swim upstream from the symptoms. Try and find underlying root causes. So as I said, if you've looked at your diet, you've looked at the exercise, how's your body clock doing? Have you done a circadian rhythm reset? How are your hormones doing? Um, are you up all night on TikTok reducing your sort of dopamine, uh, focus? Um, when you've gone through all of the obvious things and then you've looked at all the stuff that I'm talking about, have you had your biochemistry checked? Have you had the blood test, urine test to find out exactly your, your biochemical type, and have you worked on that? Have you checked if there are any retained reflexes? Could there be auditory issues that are going on? When you've gone through all of that, then think about medication. Um, but as I said, there is a risk-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... of not medicating, which is, you know, risk of, um, risk-taking behavior and all that sort of thing. But I think that's the process that I would go through.
- APAlex Partridge
This has been truly fascinating-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... Sarah. Um,
- 58:01 – 1:00:08
Sarah’s ADHD item
- APAlex Partridge
I have been patiently waiting to reveal your ADHD item.
- SWSarah Warley
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, every week I ask a guest to bring in an item that most represents ADHD, and yours, unusually this week, normally it's on the table-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... but this week it's hanging up. Um, it's a football.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
This week I'm gonna reveal your ADHD item.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
That is a very cool disco ball, bringing a bit of Saturday Night Fever into the ADHD Chatter studio. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
Don't get me started. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Why does a disco ball represent ADHD?
- SWSarah Warley
I thought of it because I thought, in many ways, ADHD people do just live in the moment.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Okay? So when people talk about living in the moment, it sounds very zen, but they're living in the moment with a million eyes, with eyes in the back of their head. They are looking at and noticing absolutely everything that is taking place then, and that's what's so utterly brilliant about it, because they're gonna see connections.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- SWSarah Warley
They're gonna notice things-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... that other people don't notice. That's why they're so great for the tribe, right? So they've got that. Um, but the other thing is, I find people with ADHD are great fun, right? They're the ones you want at the party. They're sparkling personalities. They're, they're, you know, they're always the people that you wanna hang out with. And so I just thought a disco ball somehow summed it all up for me. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
They're gonna bring the vibe up-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... and then overthink it, overthink about it when they get home. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
That's exactly what they're gonna do. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think that ability to, like, see more, um, pick up on little micro expressions, do their intuition, do you think that makes someone a good judge of character, someone with ADHD?
- SWSarah Warley
I think so. I think, 'cause they will pick up on signals that other people would've missed.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And they might not know why, and they might not be able to remember it and pinpoint it, but they will have a strong hunch that there was just something in that room that didn't quite add up-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- SWSarah Warley
... because they will have noticed something.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. That person that everyone likes when they turn out to be a wrong'un-
- SWSarah Warley
Right
- 1:00:08 – 1:03:32
The ADHD agony aunt section
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna do, penultimately, the ADHD agony aunt section-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm. Okay
- APAlex Partridge
... which is called the washing machine of woes. My ADHD item is a washing machine, because I always leave my clothes in the machine after, after the laundry-
- SWSarah Warley
True
- APAlex Partridge
... has, after the cycle's finished. Um, and I ask all my guests, do you relate to that struggle?
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs] Do I have stinky, wet clothes in the washing machine?
- APAlex Partridge
Please tell me you do. I feel less alone whenever the guests say yes.
- SWSarah Warley
There are plenty of stinky, wet clothes in the washing machine, but they're not always mine, is what I'd like to say.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, I try not to. I try not to, and also we've got this really annoying machine that sings this whole song up and down.
- APAlex Partridge
Mine does that as well. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
It is so annoying. Do you ignore it when it does it?
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah, well, I say, "Oh, classic. I'll do it later."
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
And then, then I get obsessed in something on Google, like the mating habits of blue whales.
- SWSarah Warley
And that... You see, I get hypersensitive enough to it that I think, "Right, I'm gonna have to open that." Again, it's probably hypersensitive hearing, the other thing we didn't mention.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
But it could be, you know, that it annoys me enough that I will go and I will take it out then and there. Now, would I remember it if it was just doing it without that? No, probably not, 'cause I would be hyper-focusing on something else.
- APAlex Partridge
To be fair, I have been using the Tiimo app-And they truly are brilliant
- SWSarah Warley
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
- APAlex Partridge
I've been getting a lot better, um, at remembering stuff [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
That's good
- APAlex Partridge
This week, Sarah, in the washing machine of woes-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... someone has written in and asked, "I performed poorly at school with terrible grades, but I know I'm bright, just with an ADHD brain that works and sees things differently. It's affecting my self-esteem. What can I do to get my confidence back?"
- SWSarah Warley
Gosh, and, and that's something we see so often at the clinic, just people underperforming relative to how smart they are. Um, I mean, I think Chris Evans talked about it. He said the way that kids are being judged at school, he said it's like you're in the middle of the jungle, and there's a tree, and you've got a monkey, and you've got a crocodile, and you've got a kangaroo, and the competition is who can climb the tree the quickest.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SWSarah Warley
I mean [laughs] , you know, that's basically what we're doing to, to children at school
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- 1:03:32 – 1:05:06
A letter from the previous guest
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Sarah-
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... fantastic. Just finally, I want to deliver a letter that was written by the previous guest-
- SWSarah Warley
Oh
- APAlex Partridge
... where they wrote their three rules to live by.
- SWSarah Warley
Okay.
- APAlex Partridge
Here we go.
- SWSarah Warley
Thank you. Thank you very much. So the first one is, "Find your signal and follow it with passion and ignore the noise." Yeah, and having that peace and quiet to find the signal, I totally agree with that. "Question everything and find the why, which is where the signal is." Gosh, that's a bit of a complex one. "Question everything and find the why, which is where the signal is." I find that a little hard, just, uh, just the language, but I-
- APAlex Partridge
Quite cryptic, isn't it? It's, it's a bit of a brain puzzle
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah, I think, I think it's just saying-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] Yeah
- SWSarah Warley
... be calm and-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah
- SWSarah Warley
... and think about the why
- APAlex Partridge
No, I like that. That's good.
- SWSarah Warley
Yes, and, "Be comfortable with being vulnerable. It opens doors."
- APAlex Partridge
Very true.
- SWSarah Warley
That's a really-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... good one, isn't it? 'Cause we always think we have to appea- appear bulletproof to people, and actually, no, the minute you feel close to someone is the moment they show their vulnerability.
- APAlex Partridge
You have to show vulnerability, right? E- even if it's in baby steps to expose your true self.
- SWSarah Warley
You do.
- APAlex Partridge
'Cause masking is the opposite of being vulnerable.
- SWSarah Warley
It is.
- APAlex Partridge
So you have to almost test the water, test little urges you have, different hobbies you wanna try, little different ways you wanna say sentences, like baby steps, bit at a-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... bit at a time, and that's vulnerability. When they get approved and you realize that they're not-
- SWSarah Warley
That's it
- APAlex Partridge
... broken, then you can do more of it.
Episode duration: 1:05:07
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Transcript of episode KE7LavnWAPE
