ADHD Chatter PodcastOxford Scientist: 3 Newly Discovered Ways To Manage Autism & ADHD
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 9,416 words- 0:00 – 1:23
Trailer
- SWSarah Warley
Autism is such a vast array-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm
- SWSarah Warley
... of different things that what works brilliantly for one person may do absolutely nothing for the next person. And we're only just beginning to scrape the surface of the many different biological contributors to autism.
- APAlex Partridge
The gut differences in an autistic person, do they contribute to the symptoms of autism?
- SWSarah Warley
If you ask mainstream medical view, they will say, "No, no, what it is is an interesting comorbidity," which means, gosh, how interesting that so many people with autism just happen to have those symptoms. I didn't see it that way at all.
- APAlex Partridge
You mentioned a connection between autism and peptides. How can peptides help with autism?
- SWSarah Warley
Well, weirdly-
- APAlex Partridge
Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Sarah, welcome back.
- SWSarah Warley
Nice to see you.
- APAlex Partridge
We were just chatting a moment ago, uh, and, and I was saying how shocked I was that I've been s- working in the ADHD and autism space for, for three years now, and I've never, ever heard what we're gonna speak about today mentioned, which is absolutely
- 1:23 – 2:50
Can Changing Your Diet Improve Autistic Traits?
- APAlex Partridge
shocking. And that is that you say that if an autistic person changes what they eat, it can change their symptoms. W- what do you mean by that?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. You're right. It is so not discussed, and it should be [laughs] discussed. So if you think about it, there is a permanent conversation going on between your gut and your brain, and that conversation happens in loads of different ways, which I, which I can explain. But the point is, you can change the nature of that conversation. And if you do that, you can change the nature or the degree of the symptoms. So again, it comes full circle to the thing we discussed, I know, in our last podcast, which is are these diagnoses set in stone or not?
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- SWSarah Warley
Well, it, it, the question is what is a diagnosis? And it's a description of a cluster of symptoms. That's what it is. It's not a blood test, it's not a biomarker, it's a description of symptoms. And I know firsthand you can change those symptoms by doing different things. So it doesn't mean for everyone, changing the diet's gonna radically, you know, alter what's going on. But for a subset of people, it can have a very-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- SWSarah Warley
... dramatic effect, and I, I've seen it many times.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. And, and I guess a lot of symptoms, traits, they come from the cognition and what's going on in your brain, and a lot of that, you say, is connected to what's going on in your gut.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
I.e., what you actually put in your mouth-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... uh, and eat. Uh, before we get into all of that, Sarah, this is super fascinating.
- 2:50 – 8:07
The Personal Story Behind Sarah's Research
- APAlex Partridge
Why is this so personal to you?
- SWSarah Warley
Gosh, okay. So I had a, a sort of eureka moment, [laughs] I guess, years ago when I was living in New York, and I had a very, very close friend, s- have a very close friend called Christina, and she had a little daughter, a gorgeous, gorgeous little girl, and she found things extremely difficult. And this little girl was not sleeping at night, she had loads of obsessive behavior. She'd be compulsively opening and closing doors, wanting to go up and down escalators, up and down escalators for an hour at a time, and then if you stopped, it would be a catastrophic meltdown. So she and her husband were basically on their knees, you know. They were exhausted. As we know, sleep deprivation is-
- APAlex Partridge
Sure
- SWSarah Warley
... a form of torture, you know.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SWSarah Warley
And she'd had a good two to three years of it. And she didn't know what to do. She tried taking her daughter to toddler classes, and she was a smart [laughs] little thing, but she was not gonna play by the rules.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- SWSarah Warley
So there was a music class that she tried to get into, and instead of doing what all the other little kids were doing, she climbed underneath the desk and pulled out the, the plug from the-
- APAlex Partridge
Right [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
... music system, making them incredibly unpopular in the class.
- APAlex Partridge
I imagine.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, but she was... You know, when they were zigging, she was zagging.
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- SWSarah Warley
And they didn't know what to do. And so she'd been on the wait list to go and see a pediatrician who was an expert in, in the area of autism, and, you know, she'd written, diligently written up her notes, every trait, everything that she'd observed in the hope that, you know, this doctor could then shed light on what was going on. And sure enough, she got to the appointment, went in, daughter was flying round the room, investigating everything, unplugging everything.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- SWSarah Warley
And he sort of took one look at her and said, "Well, you know, she's clearly autistic. Um, probably some traits of ADHD as well. But, um, what can I suggest? You can try melatonin. We could maybe give you a stimulant medication. Don't expect her to attend a regular school. Um, you know, that, that's all I can tell you."
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- SWSarah Warley
And she came out of there absolutely devastated. And we were chatting about it, and she knew that years ago I'd studied experimental psychology and I was interested in this whole area, and she just said, "Look, there's gotta be some better answer. I don't want to simply introduce a medication to this developing brain. And if she is behaving this way, why is she behaving in this way?" Oh, and one of the key things was she'd been very constipated from the moment she got weaned from breast milk onto formula, which is cow's milk. And again, she'd seen a pediatrician, and he simply said, "Oh, well, you know, give her a laxative. You know, give her prune juice," instead of saying, "Why? Why can her gut not process this?" So I, I promised her I would do my best, and just, you know, started researching a little bit, and I started digging. And the more I dug, the more I found a load of evidence of, of different types of intervention that you could do that could potentially move the needle. And one, uh, we'll, I'm sure we'll talk about it a bit more later, but there was one dietary intervention in particular that I, based on the research, I sort of said, "Well, why don't you try this? Let's just try it and see what happens."
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- SWSarah Warley
I mean, there's nothing to be lost, right?
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
So we did this dietary intervention, and, I mean, it was the most dramatic [laughs] thing possible. So it took about th- A couple of weeks, but her daughter's behavior radically shifted. She could sleep through the night, the constipation was sorted out, the huge mood swing volatility had gone. She was less wrapped in her own world and more interested in playing with other children, and was able to actually go to toddler classes and do all of this.
- APAlex Partridge
Sure, yes.
- SWSarah Warley
And so we were dumbstruck by what was going on.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And one morning, her husband totally forgot that this little girl, as part of the diet, wasn't meant to have milk. She accidentally put milk on her breakfast cereal.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow.
- SWSarah Warley
And it was like watching a bomb go off.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Okay? It was like fireworks night. Dramatic shift again. All the old behaviors came back, and it was extraordinary, this little thing. Anyway, so of course they [laughs] then took it out of her diet again. This girl, uh, they did other things as well, but she went on to be so, so successful. She ended up at an Ivy League university.
- 8:07 – 10:43
How Your Gut Could Be Affecting Your Brain
- APAlex Partridge
the gut, how can the bacteria in, in my gut, like, affect what's going on in my brain? How can the, what's going on in my stomach influence what's going on in my head?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah, it's a really good question. So I'd say there are four different mechanisms by which it can do that. First is this thing called the vagus nerve.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And you've probably discussed, you know, the thing that either you're nice and relaxed or calm, or you're in fight and flight mode. But that connects between your brain and your gut, so there is a, a direct neuronal network.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
The second is the microbiome, so in other words, all the bacteria and the things that are living in your gut. And by the way, we are walking ecosystems. I think we've got, is it 38 trillion microbes living [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
38 trillion, wow
- SWSarah Warley
... living on us and in us. So d- you know, we think, "Oh, we're an individual." No, we are walking ecosystems, and that ecosystem helps break down your food, it helps your immune system.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
If you've got the wrong ecosystem, it can create toxins. If you've got horrible bacteria and, and nasties living in there, they can produce toxins that can directly affect the brain. If you haven't got the right balance, maybe you don't break down your food well enough, then you don't have the nutrients you need for the building blocks for the neurotransmitters-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... in, in the brain. So those are three methods. The fourth, I'd say, is inflammation. You know, if you've got, um, a poor microbiome, if you've got, you may have heard of leaky gut.
- APAlex Partridge
Leaky gut, what's that?
- SWSarah Warley
Leaky gut. It basically means that, that there's inflammation in the gut lining, and that it's, it's become porous. And there are things that can increase it. For example, ibuprofen is one thing that can increase how porous it is. Um, and then you can have foods leaking through into the bloodstream, and then the immune system can get involved and, and thinks, "Well, these shouldn't be here," and start attacking. And that can attack the gut lining-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... which can make it even worse, which can create a vicious cycle. And we now know that inflammation in the body can cause inflammation in the brain. Now, that's, that sounds like such an obvious thing to say, but I can tell you, it's a breakthrough in understanding. Um, a, a brilliant psychiatrist called Edward Bullmore, I think he's in Cambridge, wrote a book, The Inflamed Mind, and he showed that when you have inflammation in your body after surgery or due to whatever, your brain can become inflamed, and that can be a type of depression. So in this way, you know, we are, as I said, we're in a continual conversation.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And it's good news and it's bad news. The good news, I always like to look on the good news-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- SWSarah Warley
... is that you can change things. So this is a direct mechanism we can use to influence the symptoms that, that we're showing.
- APAlex Partridge
We're gonna get into some of those changes in, in a moment, Sarah, but this is where it gets really interesting, and because we were speaking about this,
- 10:43 – 16:31
The Surprising Difference in Autistic People's Gut Bacteria
- APAlex Partridge
what does the actual research show i- in terms of what does the microbiome look like in autistic people? Is there a difference there?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. But again, that's such a good question, and such a hot topic, 'cause there is so much research going round about this at the moment. So there was a 2024 study showing, um, that autistic people tend to have a much narrower gut microbiome than neuro- yeah, than neurotypical people. So that was one thing. And so then the question there becomes, well, is it chicken or egg?
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
Because we know if you're someone with autistic traits, you're more likely to be a bit of a picky eater. You're probably very taste sensitive, texture sensitive, so you're gonna eat a more narrow diet.
- APAlex Partridge
When you say, this is, I, I have to ask, when you say narrower microbiome, what, what do you mean by that?
- SWSarah Warley
Well, actually, I should be more specific. There are differences in the microbiome.
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, there are, there are very marked differences. And by the way, there are marked differences in the ADHD microbiome-
- APAlex Partridge
Sure
- SWSarah Warley
... and the, and the autistic one.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
And I've, there's another study, I think it was done in 2025, that showed a really accurate being able to put people into either category based purely on their microbiome-
- APAlex Partridge
Really?
- SWSarah Warley
... which is really interesting.
- APAlex Partridge
Is it?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
So how do you, how do you look at the microbiome? How do you, how do you test it?
- SWSarah Warley
Stool tests.
- APAlex Partridge
Stool testing.
- SWSarah Warley
Delightful poo, poo tests.
- APAlex Partridge
Oh, [laughs] yeah.
- SWSarah Warley
Right? They're called stool test-
- APAlex Partridge
Right, okay
- SWSarah Warley
... poo tests, basically. There are ways that it literally, it's the only way, if you actually wanna know what's going on in your gut. Revolting, I know.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah, sure.
- SWSarah Warley
Revolting, but necessary- [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
So we could-
- SWSarah Warley
... if you wanna know what's going on in your gut. But we, but we can come onto that. But, but I want to say one other thing-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah
- SWSarah Warley
... which is, if you've got a narrower diet-
- 16:31 – 19:49
Why So Many Autistic People Have Gut Problems
- SWSarah Warley
should be?
- APAlex Partridge
So is that why the, the conversation of gastrointestinal problems-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... is such a big part of the autism conversation?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. That's exactly why. And as I said, to me, it's just no coincidence.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
But, but it is seen officially as comorbid. But then a load of things are seen officially as comorbid, i.e.-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... gosh, what an interesting coincidence. Um, and the s- the reality is there are lots of really debilitating physical symptoms that can sit alongside autism. Um, so poor sleep. You know about anxiety, depression.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
I think it's about a quarter of people with autism have had suicidal thoughts at some stage.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- SWSarah Warley
And actually, AuDHD is the worst category of all-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- SWSarah Warley
... you know, so when you look at that. Um, seizures, um, as I said, gut dysfunction, inflammation, pain, all of these are factors that can go alongside it. Hypersensitive hearing, we talked about that before. And, you know, my feeling is, I, I sort of, I get really bored of the categorizations of it all, and I just think if we can take those things away, take the pain of those things away, if there's something we can do to reduce the hypersensitive-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... hearing, if we can get rid of the inflammation, if we can help with the digestion, if we can reduce all of that, then I know we can see symptom improvements 'cause of, 'cause of course you will. Um, so then getting trapped in this nuanced discussion of, oh, but is that treating autism or not? I, I mean, I would never claim it's treating autism-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... because at the same time, I wouldn't want to change someone who is autistic 'cause there are lots of brilliant things that go with it. But what I do want to do is reduce, uh, you know, the, the pain, the overwhelm, the inflammation, the things that get in the way of them being able to function as the best version of themselves they can be.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes, absolutely. I mean, there, there are many strengths to being autistic and having ADHD, but- There are a ton of struggles
- SWSarah Warley
Yes
- APAlex Partridge
And, and, you know, you can't access the positives unless you look at the-
- SWSarah Warley
Unless you look at-
- APAlex Partridge
... managing those, those, those challenges
- SWSarah Warley
... and people, but the argument is I always find things in this world, in general, are so polarized at the moment-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... aren't they? It's either, "Rah, rah, we're all neurodivergent. Isn't it fabulous?" Or it's, "Oh, God, that's terrible. We've got to fix it." Why can the answer not be both at the same time? [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
And we say, you know, yes, there are fabulous things, but it's disingenuous to not say, actually, there are a load of things that go with this that are awful. I mean, I can think of one young man that, that we worked with, if he was a boy, at the time, and he was doing lots of what they call stimming, repetitive behaviors-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- 19:49 – 27:10
Could This Peptide Really Reduce 91% of Symptoms?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
How can... Peptides is obviously a big conversation on everywhere at the moment.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
I can't sort of look anywhere, a magazine cover, without seeing peptides. How can peptides help with autism?
- SWSarah Warley
Well, weirdly, I would argue it's actually the other way around, that there are some individuals who are on the autistic spectrum-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... you're not allowed to say spectrum anymore, they changed the definitions, who are autistic, who are not very well able to break down the protein-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... that is in milk and in gluten products.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
Okay? So what happens is, uh, uh, they think that there is a lack of an enzyme, I think it's called DPP4 or something, which you need to actually break down these molecules when you eat them, and the theory is that they are able to pass into the bloodstream only half-digested, right? So as a peptide, this is where the word peptide comes from, so it's a dual protein molecule. It should be broken down into little amino acids, but it hasn't got there. So you've got these peptides floating around, and they go through the gut lining, and as I said before, the immune system thinks, "Well, you know, this shouldn't be here. What's this?"
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And starts attacking, and that makes it even worse and makes the gut even leakier. But what they think is that these peptides are small enough to cross into the blood-brain barrier, and the clue is in the name. So the gluten one is called gluteomorphin, and the, the one that comes from the protein in milk is called casomorphin, right? So it's having a druggy morphine or en- think of endomorphines, a morphine-like effect on the brain.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And people that have this going on typically tend to crave these foods, right?
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
So they'll-
- APAlex Partridge
What, what foods is that?
- SWSarah Warley
Okay, so I can't tell you [laughs] how many people I've worked with this. Things like anything highly gluten. So the people that want tons of pasta-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah
- SWSarah Warley
... tons of bread, give me ice cream. I mean, there was one boy that we saw that was glugging gallons of milk every day. Because what happens is you have these things, and you get a hit from it, okay? You're actually getting high as a kite by ingesting these molecules. So there tends to be quite an addictive, um, sequence that can go on with this. And so, uh, what we found, I mean, so this was the example I gave you at the beginning with Christina.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
The research I read around this, well, I don't know if you'd call it research. It is research. It comes from the Autism Research Institute in America, and it was based on a sample of 27,000 parents of autistic children. And they simply said to them, "Out of everything you've tried, just tell us what worked really well, what didn't work, what made it worse, what made it better?" 69% of those parents said, "Taking gluten and dairy out of the diet was the game changer for us." And only 3% said it made it worse, right? So that's a huge number. Now, I know it's not a random control trial. I kn- you know, I know all of the caveats that go with that, but that was the study I read-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... when I said to my friend, "Why don't we give this a whirl and just see-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- SWSarah Warley
... what happens," right? Um, so, so there is that, but there, but then you come to, okay, what are the random control trials around this? And famously, a lot of people quote a study that frankly only had 14 children involved.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay, not many.
- SWSarah Warley
If you, if you-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- 27:10 – 33:39
Which Autistic Traits Could Actually Improve?
- APAlex Partridge
Like, do you know what that actually looks like? What traits, what symptoms, what presentations of autism got better?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. Well, you know, as I said, I can speak to the example I gave you of Christina.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
I mean, her child was able to sleep, and if you think about gut pain, it's gonna keep you up at night.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- SWSarah Warley
Right? If you eat something horrible and you go to bed, you can't sleep.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And that's how it, it can feel all the time. There were fewer mood swings. Um, and as I said, the, you know, with her child, there was just... So it was like better socialization, better integration. Um, now I mean, it's gonna be different for everyone. One thing I really want to emphasize is autism is a, such a vast-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... a- array of different things that what works brilliantly for one person may do absolutely nothing for the next person. Um, and we're only just beginning to scrape the surface of the many different biological contributors to autism. And it's interesting 'cause there's... Sorry, I'm probably going off on a bit of a tangent, but-
- APAlex Partridge
No, it's brilliant
- SWSarah Warley
... you know, but when we look at different types of autism-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... as you know, the rules change every so often. There was autism and then there was autism spectrum. There was low functioning, higher functioning, Asperger's. No, Asperger's isn't there anymore. Now we've got four different types.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And what's interesting is the genetic research that's going alongside it, and they've been able to show four genetic differences that seem to be linked to four different types. So this is all to do with, again, symptom mapping, but it's not really the bit that interests me. The bit that interests me is what are the underlying biological factors-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... that are influencing symptoms, and what can we, what can we change? What can we do to make things better? It's all very well categorizing, but what can we actually do to improve things, to make life easier? And that's gonna be different for different people. So probably a child with gut problems, um, constipation, diarrhea, all that sort of thing, you may well want to try gluten, casein-free diet under supervision. There's no, no downside to it. Um, but if they haven't got that, it might be something else that you need to look at.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. Oh, so interesting. So if someone's listening, Sarah, and they want to actually take, uh, actionable steps towards this advice around peptides and, and a gluten-free diet-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... what would be a actionable first step?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. So, as I said, I think today it's way easier than it used to be in terms of thinking, "How can I take gluten and dairy out of the diet?" Now, I find with any kind of nutritional advice, don't try and be all perfectionist-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... at the beginning, 'cause it's so hard, isn't it? You're basically, what you're basically doing is saying, "Can I take a child, or an adult, who's quite a picky eater, who knows what they want, and can I morph them to doing something slightly different?" So start in a small way. Go with whatever it is you regularly cook in a week or you regularly eat and think, "Okay, what's a quick substitution I could do there?" So if it's pasta, you just swap in the gluten-free one.
- APAlex Partridge
Right.
- SWSarah Warley
Um, it's knowing, uh, um, you know, if it's milk, you are, that is one you're gonna have to swap over completely.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
And probably for something like an almond milk or an oat milk or something like that.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay. That's quite easy. You can just buy that.
- SWSarah Warley
So that's quite ea- Oh, yes, all of these things now you can just buy.
- 33:39 – 39:59
The Surprising Connection Between Candida and Autism
- APAlex Partridge
I, I was reading about Candida, and it's something I heard you mention. Uh, there's a lot of conflicting evidence on it, on the internet. Just firstly, I suppose, w- what is it?
- SWSarah Warley
So Candida, it's back to the gut microbiome again.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
It's basically, it's a type of fungus, okay? So, which sounds revolting, [laughs] but we all have-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
... we all, we have a whole mixed bag of... Whether we like it or not, we have everything going on in our gut.
- APAlex Partridge
Sure.
- SWSarah Warley
But it's when that balance of things gets out that it causes a problem. So if you have a big overgrowth of Candida, of this fungus, in your gut, it can create all sorts of problems. Um, w- the thing that Candida lives off and thrives off is a high-sugar diet. So if you're eating a load of sweet stuff, um, it is going to be fueling that Candida growth.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
And there is some evidence that Candida grows and can actually extend through, again, through the gut lining. It's actually kind of roots that can go through in the gut lining-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... make the whole lot more porous, and we've then talked about the immune system gets involved, inflammation gets involved. It gets leakier, and so you get this vicious cycle being set up. It's a really hard one to get rid of, and there are special diets. There's one called the, I think it's called the specific carbohydrate diet, and it's a toughie. Okay?
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
It's a toughie. I know that. But it's, you know, it's basically saying, well, the way we're gonna get rid of the Candida is to starve it by not giving it what it needs to survive.
- APAlex Partridge
No sugar.
- SWSarah Warley
No sugar.
- APAlex Partridge
It sounds awfully boring.
- SWSarah Warley
Yes, it's a tough one. And you can have... The other thing to be aware of with all of these things, you can have what they call a die-off effect in the gut. So if you've got too much of a bacteria or too much of this, it, it can actually produce toxins as it dies off. So sometimes when... You know, our nutritionists-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... for example, that work at the clinic, will give you binding agents to scoop all of that up so it's not flooding the system when we start working on the microbiome. Um, but what else was I gonna say? Oh, I know the other thing I was gonna mention. You can get medication from the doctor if there is Candida in the gut-
- APAlex Partridge
Okay
- SWSarah Warley
... and there's a big overgrowth. And that study we mentioned at the beginning by, that they asked all the parents of autistic children, um, what's helped, what hasn't helped, interestingly, the two medications that came out doing very well, I think it was 52%, 62% said got better, both of them were antifungals.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow, okay.
- SWSarah Warley
So again, back to the gut microbiome. It's all coming back-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... to the things that seem to work the best are the ones that address that.
- APAlex Partridge
If you had an overgrowth of this fungus [laughs] -
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs] Sounds horrible, doesn't it?
- APAlex Partridge
... or fungi, whatever the plural of fungus is, in your stomach, like, what would that look like in terms of cognitive function? What... 'Cause the, you said the gut and brain-
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- 39:59 – 44:06
The Hidden Link Between Autism, Mitochondria and Energy
- APAlex Partridge
What about mitochondria? Because it, it's, I, I read that people with autism have less mitochondria. I suppose just to start with, what is mitochondria? If, if... 'Cause I, I didn't know what it was. If someone's listening and they're not sure what that word means, what does it actually mean, firstly?
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah. It's so full of complex language, isn't it, all of this? And I just... Okay, the easiest way to think of mitochondria is they are the little battery packs within every cell in your body. So every cell, to have energy-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... needs these little battery packs.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- SWSarah Warley
And they sit outside the nucleus, and that's what they are. And you've probably read about things like creatine and, you know, muscle builders use it-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes, yeah
- SWSarah Warley
... and it's kind of an energy source for the mitochondria. But what's interesting is about 40% of people diagnosed with autism have poorly functioning mitochondria, so their cells are not producing the right amount of energy, and there's e- a much tinier percentage that have a very serious, um, disorder, I guess you'd call it, of the mitochondria that, again, requires specialist sort of medical intervention. But, you know, the fact you've got these poorly charged battery packs in all of the cells in your body, what can you do to try and help sort them out? Actually, there isn't much evidence that creatine [laughs] helps if it's this particular, for this particular case-
- APAlex Partridge
Okay
- SWSarah Warley
... within autism. Um, a lot of the basic stuff like getting up, getting out. Daylight, daylight is really important. Do you know, I read a study recently that wasn't just about autism, it was about all of us, and it was saying we are really light deprived because we've switched over to LED light bulbs in the home because they're more green. But actually, we're missing red and near-infrared light, and you need that for all of the energy cells-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... to function properly. And that we are, they're talking about, uh, it as a kind of 21st century scurvy [laughs] is what they're talking about.
- APAlex Partridge
Right. [laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
But anyway, all I'm saying it's particularly important if you have autism.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SWSarah Warley
There are supplements like carnitine that, again, there's early research evidence showing that that can potentially help. B vitamins help, magnesium helps, um, reducing overall inflammation. All of the good-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... healthy stuff I'm always talking about, getting a decent diet, eating a rainbow, getting up and out first thing in the morning to set the body clock-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... sleeping, all of those things help to, to regulate the mitochondria.
- APAlex Partridge
So this is sounds like really zooming in and the m- micro changes inside the body.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
Deep inside the body, mitochondria.
- SWSarah Warley
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Uh, if you have these battery packs inside all the cells of your body and they are not charged properly-
- SWSarah Warley
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... is, is that like a noticeable trait? Would you, would you feel that? Is it fatigue? I- is it a physical, does that have a physical consequence?
- SWSarah Warley
I mean, it can do, yes, certainly in terms of fatigue. Um, again, just not being able to really focus or concentrate. Um, you know, just think of an Energizer bunny that's just been wound down. Um, yeah. Absolutely, and I think, you know, if you haven't got energy- Again, you're probably less well able to cope with things, aren't you? Because I think we've talked about this a lot, but navigating this very loud, brash, intrusive world [laughs] that we live in, particularly, I mean, it's hard enough if you're ADHD-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SWSarah Warley
... but if you're autistic and you're hypersensitive to all of these things, um, if you're also tackling a load of internal things that aren't functioning as they should be, whether it's mitochondria, gut dysfunction, inflammation, lack of nutrients, it just means you're even less resilient and less able to cope. So I think, you know, a lot of the work that we do is about how can we help the body function as well as it can do?
- 44:06 – 47:25
An Emotional Letter to My Younger Self
- SWSarah Warley
little me, I wish I could sit beside you for five minutes. Not change you, not tell you to concentrate, calm down, try harder, or be more organized. You've heard enough of that. I just want to tell you that I can see how hard you are trying. Other people see the forgotten homework, the messy room, the daydreaming, the tears, but I see the effort underneath it all. I see you watching the other girls, how they speak, how much of themselves they show, and slowly you begin building a version of yourself that you think people might find easier to love." Sorry, I'm just gonna stop at that sentence.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SWSarah Warley
You build a version of yourself that you think other people might find easier to love. Wow. Um, "You'll become very good at being her. She'll smile when she's overwhelmed. She'll say, 'I'm fine,' when she isn't. For years you'll ask yourself, 'What's wrong with me?' And I wish I could stop you every time, because there was never anything wrong with you. One day you'll learn four letters, A-D-H-D." [laughs] I could also put autism in there, by the way.
- APAlex Partridge
Oh, autism, absolutely.
- SWSarah Warley
I'm gonna put autism in there as well, thank you.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes.
- SWSarah Warley
"And suddenly, pieces of your life will start coming home. The girl staring out of the classroom window. The girl who couldn't focus for hours on something she loved, and barely minutes on something she didn't." Sorry, "who could focus for hours on something she loved and minutes on something she didn't. The girl who felt rejection in her whole body. The girl who was called lazy when she was overwhelmed. You'll realize she wasn't difficult, she was struggling, and nobody knew, not even her. There will be grief in that. You'll grieve the years you spent trying to become someone else, but eventually you stop chasing her and you start meeting you, the real you. And the intensity becomes passion. The curiosity becomes ideas. The sensitivity becomes empathy. And that enormous heart of yours, please [laughs] don't shrink it. Care deeply, be excited, take up space. Most of all, I'm sorry, because when the world told you that you were too much, I tried to make you less. You deserved somebody on your side, so I'm on your side now. You spent so many years wondering when you would finally become normal. You don't. Something much better happens. You become yourself. And after all these years of trying to be somebody else, I'm finally so proud to be you. Love, me."
- APAlex Partridge
Wow.
- SWSarah Warley
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Thank you so much for reading that so beautifully.
- SWSarah Warley
Who wrote that? [laughs] That was brilliant.
- APAlex Partridge
Absolutely incredible. What a letter. Really, it sounds like a letter that any, any, uh, of the listeners c- probably could have written, so thank you so much-
- SWSarah Warley
I think so
- APAlex Partridge
... for reading it so beautifully.
- SWSarah Warley
And as relevant for autism as ADHD.
- APAlex Partridge
Absolutely. Sarah, on behalf of everybody who's ever felt misunderstood, thank you very much.
- SWSarah Warley
Thank you. Thanks, Alex. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 47:25
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