ADHD Chatter PodcastThe ADHD Expert: You Can Fix ADHD In 24 Hours By Doing THIS! How To Stop Feeling Broken.
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 10,697 words- 0:00 – 1:28
Trailer
- KPKristen Pressner
The ADHD brain seeks dopamine. Ruminating and obsessing about something embarrassing you said in sixth grade in math class can serve that purpose. You know, I always tease my family members not to believe everything their brain tells them, because the ADHD brain sometimes isn't very nice. It's sometimes quite cruel. I think it takes a lot to realize that you aren't your thoughts, and your thoughts aren't necessarily true. Yeah, there's a lot of shame, because your brain doesn't work the way the rest of the world is. You're looping all the time on how you're a bad person or things that you did that other people honestly would have gone out of their mind, and the tips and tricks that work for everybody else don't work for you. Kristen Pressner is an astounding ADHD expert and two-time TEDx talker. Surrounded by ADHD her entire life- And working closely with thousands ... Kristen makes her complex understanding of neurodivergence simple for all. The kryptonite for an ADHDer can be thinking they have to do everything all on their own, especially if you're kind of shrouded in RSD and shame. And I can imagine it would be hard to let people in, but if you let people in, you can divvy up the work. Have someone return your packages and cancel your apps and things like that, and then you can do the things only you can do, like amazing podcasts. And it's so obvious that if we could crack this nut, world would be a way better place. Instead of crippling people who have these beautiful skills and capabilities, we would be enabling them.
- APAlex Partridge
Kristen, thank you so much for joining us.
- KPKristen Pressner
It's a pleasure to be here.
- APAlex Partridge
You've flown all the way from Switzerland today to share with us your ADHD mission. So perhaps
- 1:28 – 11:27
Kristen’s ADHD mission
- APAlex Partridge
we could start with that. What is your ADHD mission?
- KPKristen Pressner
Oh, I love that question so much. Um, so my ADHD mission is to pass along to the world the lessons that I've learned about what ADHD is and isn't, because I am 100% convinced it is the unlock for stopping a lot of pain and suffering in the world and unleashing a ton of latent potential on the world. Quite honestly, potential that the world needs.
- APAlex Partridge
A lot of the ADHD Chatter listeners, they feel misunderstood. Um, and I read on your website you thought you understood ADHD until you realized you didn't. Um, so what was it you didn't understand about ADHD, and what is it that you do understand now?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. I, I really fancied myself as someone who got it. You know, I have, um, you know, part of my undergraduate degree is in psychology. I work in global human resources. I, I feel like I'm in the poten- potential making business, and so, um, I thought that I understood what ADHD was, and I unfortunately fell into believing the stereotype of nine-year-old boys bouncing off the walls and squirrel haha funny. And what I didn't realize was that the, the actual things that one might observe in somebody who has, uh, undiagnosed or, um, has ADHD weren't kind of anything like what I expected. And so the big one thing that was the most shocking to me is that there's actually something biological that can cause the things that I was observing that were driving me crazy and made me believe that my loved ones were lazy or, you know, weren't trying, weren't applying themselves. And, like, the only conclusion that I could come to in the world for what I saw was these character flaws. It completely was outside the realm of my understanding that there could be a biological cause for that.
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think the, like, emotional toll is on someone who might be experiencing what you've explained, but they don't have that understanding-
- KPKristen Pressner
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... that there is an actual explanation for those behaviors?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. Uh, there's a, um, a line in my, uh, TEDx talk on the topic, um, that a lot of people, um, say, "This is when you got me" [laughs] . And it was where I said, "Imagine if all of these things were happening, and they were invisible to everyone, including you." And I think this is the kicker. Um, the vast majority of people who have ADHD are undiagnosed, in particular in adults, and they also believe what I used to believe, that the things that they see about themselves must be character flaws. And so there is so much shame associated with feeling like a bad human and not realizing, and I like the analogy of hurdles, that the hurdles to jump over for me, say, um, the hurdle of listening closely or doing a bor- boring and mundane adulting task like laundry or whatever, my hurdles are just s- quite simply lower than the hurdles of my family members. And I... It was invisible to all of us, and I think if we had been able to see the difference in the hurdles, there would have been a lot less feeling bad about themselves and shame and feeling a need to hide things. Um, and this is what I mean by the pain and suffering-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... that's caused. If you went through life feeling like, "Hmm, things seem way harder for me than they are for everybody else, and I, I fancied myself kind of a smart person, um, there must be something wrong with me. I must be broken," um, what a horrible way to go through life.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And I... It's really disheartening to me, because we can talk about the downsides, but there are tons of upsides that no one's talking about-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... because it's a diagnosis. So it's a deficiency in this and struggles with that. And for me, the real interesting part of the conversation is around the potential beauty in thriving and what's possible in a brain that works differently. For me, in particular, in a, a post-AI world where boring, mundane things can be done by AI, and the, the beauty in what I see how my family, their brain works or other, uh, ADHD or neurodivergent people's brain works is something that no AI is gonna be able to do.
- APAlex Partridge
Totally agree, and I think one of those challenges is, is the propensity to get overwhelmed, right, by, by an onslaught of, of stimuli. Um, your household is yourself, four children, and your husband, and they're all neurodivergent.
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah [laughs] .
- APAlex Partridge
That's a lot of neurodivergence.
- KPKristen Pressner
It is. It is.
- APAlex Partridge
W- w- being in that-... household with all of that, uh, what's that taught you about ADHD?
- KPKristen Pressner
Oh, I don't know where to begin, um, what it's taught me. Um, number one, I, I probably have, um, more of an ability to observe, uh, the differences of ADHD and the individualness of ADHD and the individual day-to-day experiences of ADHD than the average person, given our household construct. Um, what I've learned is that, and, and maybe if I just rewind a little bit, um, I remember when the, the term ADHD first came up in our family, and it was in our, with our youngest, and I th- my initial reaction was kind of like, "ADHD? Uh, that doesn't even make sense. Like, that's not... Nine-year-old boy's bouncing off the walls." She was the opposite of that. Um, and then she was like, "Oh, but you know, I guess I have problems with executive functioning." And I'm like, "You're 14. You're not an executive. Why do you need to be an exec- executive functioning?" And just the, all this terminology was getting thrown out that I didn't, I didn't understand at all. And for me, it was like swinging open the doors of Narnia, this whole new world that looked completely different and had a different language and et cetera. And so to be perfectly honest, and I'm not super proud of it, my first reaction was, "ADHD, eye roll," you know? Um, everybody has ADHD this day, these days, and you know, what a cop-out, and if, you know, she just tried harder, these things wouldn't be such a challenge. Um, the good news is, um, that was my internal monologue, um, but I thought it, and I concluded that probably the best move in that moment was to just be curious. And so I asked her to explain a little bit more to me, and then I went about entering Narnia and educating-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... myself. And in doing so, I suddenly learned that ADHD is very different [laughs] than what I thought it was, and I learned some things about how their brains work, which are quite different than how my brain works, and quite honestly, this, this kind of unconscious assumption that we all have about how the world works, how it is for everyone. And as we went through that, I was looking for the scaled way of fixing them, and, 'cause it went from one to, hmm, maybe also my husband, maybe also this kid, maybe also that kid. And um, I was trying to find the quick fix, and I worked really hard at trying to find the quick fix, and I never did. Um, and I vowed to myself that when I found the fix, I would share it so that no one else had to go through three years of trying everything but the thing that would work. [laughs] And the thing that fixed it was to realize that in any given moment, I need to be able to meet them where they are. Uh, and the analogy that I use is, um, when you just look at how, how we get things done, um, it's a simple formula. You get motivated. That drives action, and that, in turn, drives outcomes. And w- what you put in front of, uh, motivation, for me, is importance, so what has consequences, rewards, et cetera. So taxes are due tomorrow? I'm super motivated [laughs] to take action to get the outcome of submitting my taxes. What I learned with my family is that they can agree with you that something is important. They're not dumb. Um, they will say, "That is absolutely important and that absolutely needs to get done," but it doesn't trigger the motivation, action, outcomes train. What does is interest, so whether or not they personally, in that moment, find something challenging, novel, fun, or do or die urgent. And that, for me, was a huge epiphany in how to get things moving in our house because I had tried to beat them over the head with importance, and all the things that work for me, and all the things that work for me didn't work for them. And to be perfectly honest, they, they logically made sense to them, and so they felt like when they didn't work for them, they were even a worse person. And there's more shame. Like, my, my mom gave me this... You know, she's a smart lady, and she gave me the perfect fix and exactly what works for her, and it didn't work for me, so I'm doubly broken. And, um, what I realized was w- we just have different brain wiring, and once I figured out how to hack that, we definitely moved from kind of trying to survive to being able to thrive. But the, the tricky bit is if I had a list of 10 things and I said, "Let's both put them in order of importance," we'd probably have a very similar list, but if I took that list of 10 things and said, "Let's both put it in order of what's of most interest to us now and three weeks from now," they might, the list might look really different. And that was when it hit me that there is no quick fix. The quick fix is meeting them where they are and helping them hack their brain to get the best outcomes, um, and to understand that their brain doesn't work like mine and their hurdles aren't the same height.
- 11:27 – 16:44
How to hack ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
Can you hack that list? I mean, if someone's not interested in tidying their room or doing the dishes, how can you make someone interested in doing something they're not interested in?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. [laughs] Well, I've tried everything.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
So, um, I, my big joke is that I don't tell my family members that something is important to get them going. I tell them it's urgent. So, um, we do sometimes create urgency. Um, it maybe isn't the healthiest way to get your motivation going, but it works. Um, but for, for mundane adulting tasks, like, like tidying your room, I mean, there are hacks, like inviting guests over. Um, that creates a situation where one feels motivated. Um, oftentimes I, I find with my household, they're great at cleaning someone else's room, but not their own, so you do a swap. Um, so I think there's different ways, but I think these things don't seem logical to my brain-What I had to realize was it doesn't need to be logical to my brain. It doesn't have to have worked for me. It has to work for them for right now. And so we've just really learned to play with, you know, novel, challenging, fun, or do or die urgent-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... uh, to try to get things going in the house. And to be blunt, um, you know, I, I watched as, um, some of my family members would, uh, go into hyperfocus and really shine. Um, stay up all night and do a paper that should've taken six months, no breaks, and pull out a top mark. And for a long time, I thought that was their normal mode, and so anything other than that felt like it must be laziness and not trying. And now I realize that the package comes with bursts like that and moments of recovery, so it's more like surfing. So we've learned how to surf the wave. And so if someone, you know, sometimes my husband will say this, just like, "I'm just, I'm not feeling it today," then I will say, you know, sometimes the answer is, "Then don't feel it today. [laughs] Tomorrow's a new day," or, "Try to shake things up. Go for a run," or, "Take a cold shower," or, you know, "Pet the cat," or whatever. Just something to kind of shake things up and see if you can get the motivation train running. And, um, but for me it was a real, um, paradigm shift because I think we all thought that hyperfocus, super shining mode was default mode and anything else was falling short.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And it isn't. It's, um, a yin and yang situation.
- APAlex Partridge
You've said yourself that once upon a time you misunderstood your family's behaviors as laziness or disorganization until you learnt one thing. What was that one thing?
- KPKristen Pressner
Imagine watching your family members procrastinate doing a paper you know they could do until the very last second, the night before it's due, and then pull an all-nighter. Um, imagine the entire family all hands on deck yet again in the morning looking for someone in the household's missing keys, wallet, or homework assignment. I, the only conclusion that I could come to for th- these things... Let me take a step back. The way my brain works is if I lose my keys, that's painful enough that I will have a system, and I will always put my keys in the same place. And then my keys are always in the place that I put my keys. [laughs] And so I never, don't, don't find my keys again. And if I maybe procrastinated a paper, it only takes one of those for the pain to be high enough for me to say, "I'm gonna do the next one in chunks over the six months that I should be working on that." And I, I just saw over and over again, it didn't feel like there was a learning loop. And there was a lot of pain associated, so I didn't know why the pain cycle wasn't triggering the learning loop. And I racked my brain because I, I love my family and I find them wildly gifted and talented and having amazing skills, really good at things that, that I could never do, and the only conclusion that I could come to for what I saw was they were lazy. They were unambitious. They didn't care. Sometimes there were promises that didn't get kept. They lacked integrity. It was the only thing I could see. So what was the one thing? I had no idea that there could be a biological cause for what I was observing. No clue, and there absolutely was a biological cause for what I was observing. ADHD is a dysregulation of the neurotransmitters that drive motivation and a dysregulation of the prefrontal cortex, the brain's command center responsible for taking and sustaining action. In the motivation drives action, drives outcome formula, two of the variables are dysregulated.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And I just had no clue that there could be something that could cause that that could be biological.
- APAlex Partridge
Earlier you mentioned eye roll in, in response-
- KPKristen Pressner
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... to learning about ADHD, and I feel like when I'm speaking to people about ADHD, I can often hear the eye roll, um, which I think is really heartbreaking. And I feel, feel like that comes because of this mainstream perception of ADHD.
- 16:44 – 19:50
Busting toxic ADHD myths
- APAlex Partridge
What are the mainstream perceptions of ADHD, do you think, there are, connotations that w- you'd like to bust?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. Um, I am a former member of the eye roll club.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
Um, I think that there is something about ADHD that feels over-diagnosed, feels like excuses, feels like, uh, everybody thinks they have it these days, and I've spent so much time trying to figure out how to unravel that and crack that nut, and the conclusion that I came to was... I remember taking a walk with one of my sons and he said, "You know, Mom, sometimes when I'm reading, I have to read the paragraph over and over again 'cause I can't remember what I read." And I said, "That's normal. That happens to me all the time." "Okay, but Mom, sometimes when I'm really trying to pay attention to you, like I'm giving it all of my energy, my mind wanders." "That happens to me too. It's normal. Try this neurotypical hack," right? And what I, what I conclude is that I think the reason this is so hard to wrap your head around is for most of us, when the hurdles are lower, the ability to get the motivation going to do these things isn't so high, and it probably is laziness or lack of ambition or lack of trying. And since it's invisible, no one can see that there are higher hurdles for our compadres. They're invisible to them and to us, and so we're extrapolating our experience onto them.And as my family members started to open up and share what was going on for them, and I got a, a, a look inside Narnia and how incredibly high and hard their hurdles were to do things that, quite honestly, were pretty easy for me, I thought, "Wow, there's a lot." You know, we talked about the pain and suffering of turning a paper in late or not finding your keys. There is so much pain and suffering in every corner of their lives because of this, whether it's mental health, whether it's their physical health, at work, in relationships. Lazy wouldn't pick that. It's the opposite of lazy.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And that was when I realized they're pedaling twice as hard to get half as far, and I think if it wasn't invisible, we'd be a lot more empathetic. But we don't see it. We can't tell. And, and we includes the people who have ADHD, and I think that's the hard part.
- APAlex Partridge
The emotional toll of that invisible workload, um, I think, you know, if, if they were genuinely lazy, right, in those moments where they're not doing anything, they would be having a good time.
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
It's as if like it's a choice to be lazy, but it's not, because that, that highly caffeinated, you know, overactive mind, um, it can create that physical paralysis.
- KPKristen Pressner
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
85% of the listeners and viewers of this podcast are women.
- 19:50 – 21:57
Why ADHD women feel broken
- APAlex Partridge
Why do you think women feel broken for having a brain that works a bit differently?
- KPKristen Pressner
Well, first of all, they're tragically under-diagnosed. Um, it's, uh, one of the many travesties of women's health. Secondly, because generally speaking, the manifestations of ADHD for women are different. It isn't nine-year-old boys bouncing off the walls. Uh, that was exactly what happened with my daughter when she came home and said, um, you know, "A wondering has been raised whether or not I might have ADHD." And I'm like, "There was no nine-year-old-boy-bouncing-off-the-wall vibes here." She was distracted, daydreamy, off in some other land, um, multitasking. Weird stuff to me, like watching YouTube videos while studying. I mean, that would never work for me. Um, all over the place. But the... I think the manifestation can be different in women and, um, women have such high standards for themselves to care for everyone and to keep everything together, that I think there's likely a higher burden to keep pretending everything's fine and keep pedaling harder. And, and it comes at a price. I mean, there's a high comorbidity, um, with ADHD for things like depression, anxiety, eating disorders, substance abuse disorders. Um, but women are much more likely to be diagnosed with anxiety and depression than ang- or than the ADHD, which is the underlying cause for the anxiety-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm
- KPKristen Pressner
... and the depression. And so I think that it is creating much more suffering in women because of that.
- APAlex Partridge
Having spoken to so many women now on this podcast, many of them do operate slightly differently. Um, but they feel very set upon when someone questions their way of doing something as not being the normal way. They take it very personally, and it can often lead to arguments at work, in relationships, in friendships, and I feel like that can harbor or cause a lot of shame and a lot of
- 21:57 – 26:26
Why ADHD people feel shame
- APAlex Partridge
guilt. Do you see a heightened degree of shame and guilt within someone who has ADHD, and where do you think that might come from?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. Yes. [laughs] Um, there's so much shame and guilt, and I think this is what I mean by the, the downsides or the negative consequences. I mean, if, if the whole world has this idea of how the world works and you're different from that, and then, and the normal things don't work for you, and easy things for everyone else are hard for you, then you start to think you're the problem, and you feel bad about yourself, and you think you're, you're, um... you know, there's, it's, there's a lot of shame there. Um, and I think this is the part that saddens me the most because, um, there's about a three to five times, um, the death by suicide rate, high correlation to comorbidities that can be deadly, like depression, anxiety, eating disorders, substance abuse disorders, and on average, about a decade shorter lifespan. ADHD won't kill you, but the effects of not taking care of yourself or maybe being impulsive and doing something dangerous, et cetera, um, that can. Those things can, and that's why, for me, it's so important for people to understand that, um, there are these huge negative consequences, and to be aware of those negative consequences, and then optimally... So for me, it- it starts with survival, and optimally, we can move to thriving because there are huge gifts there if you're not fighting for your life.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And, you know, you talked about shame and, um, the terminology in ADHD is rejection sensitive dysphoria, or RSD. Again, another Narnia word that I'd never heard of before. And of course, you know, my family members seemed sometimes just crippled by what felt like obsessing about minor things that I would have brushed off and not thought twice about. And if you look at it through the lens of the neurotypical or the oblivious-to-this-topic world, it's just so baffling. There were so many things that were just so baffling to me, like, "Why would you do that to yourself?" And for me, I think it became clear, the ADHD brain seeks dopamine because there's a dopamine throughput problem.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
And, you know, I, I get my dopamine. I'm not jonesing for dopamine, but my family members need to get their dopamine, and there's lots of positive ways to get dopamine, but there's also negative ways to get dopamine. And-Ruminating and obsessing about something embarrassing you said in sixth grade in math class can serve that purpose. And, you know, I always tease my family members not to believe everything their brain tells them, because the ADHD brain sometimes isn't very nice. It's sometimes quite cruel in that it says, "Ooh, let me give you something to think about at 2:00 in the morning." Um, and I think it takes a lot to realize that you aren't your thoughts, and your thoughts aren't necessarily true. Um, so yeah, there's a lot of shame because your brain doesn't work the way the rest of the world is. You're looping all the time on how you're a bad person or things that you did that other people, it honestly would have gone out of their mind, and the tips and tricks that work for everybody else don't work for you. And so one of the things that I learned with my family was... Because I, I work- I like to, I like to figure out the root cause of something and solve it forever and never think about it again. That's how my brain works. And so I have a place for my keys. [laughs] I have systems, and I never change my systems. And what I realized, because they're more interest-driven, they have to change their systems because they become uninteresting. And so they have to be able to change their systems, or their systems don't work for my brain and the way my brain is logical. And instead of being like, "Hmm," because I, I remember thinking this and feeling it, that's a dumb system. That's a very convoluted system. And now I've just come to say, if it works for you, great, and we'll just be on guard for when it stops working for you. But it isn't the kind of system I would create, and I had to learn not to decide there was only one way to Rome. Um, turns out there's lots and lots and lots of roads to Rome.
- 26:26 – 33:07
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- APAlex Partridge
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- KPKristen Pressner
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... off your life. Someone, you know, I'm, I'm a, an alcoholic myself. I truly believe that's related to my ADHD. I've spoken to so many people who have addiction issues, um, with ADHD. Um, and the personal things you put around yourself, the damage those cause, the, the perfectionism, the people-pleasing, the, the working throughout the night just so you can meet that deadline. Do you think all of this is connected to the shame that we associate with ADHD?
- KPKristen Pressner
Sure, and, uh, I mean, for me it really is, and that's why this is such an important conversation. It's not squirrel haha funny. This is life and death, and I've experienced it firsthand. And again, that's why I think in terms of first you have to move from surviving, then you can move to thriving, but when people don't understand what's happening with their own brain, when they're pedaling twice as hard to get half as far, when they're leaping over hurdles that are so much harder than other people's, it comes at a price, and you pay the piper eventually. And I think that we could do so much better of a job in having this understanding, um, that there can be a biological reason that people f- find these things hard that other people find easy and to help them move from just holding on and surviving to thriving. Um, oftentimes in our house w- when my family members, this happens daily, kind of go down the shame spiral of feeling bad about themselves. The, the oth- a week, about a week ago, one of my children, um, started going about canceling paid subscriptions. Oh, the kryptonite of an ADHDer.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
You sign up for a paid subscription, it's just gonna suck money out of your wallet for the rest of your life because the executive functions to go and cancel that aren't there. And he realized that, and he went, and he started to cancel some subscriptions. It's boring as heck. There is no dopamine in canceling subscriptions. And then he asked me, "Are there any other places there might be hidden subscriptions?" So he went into his app, and we did that. And I was thinking, "I'm so proud of him for doing this thing that has no dopamine and kind of getting his financial hygiene in good order because I know how hard it is. I'm so proud." And he was like just in this shame spiral of adding up all the money that had been wasted, and I get it, but you gotta take the win.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And you've gotta be able to look forward and say, "Hey, this is... It, it might have been easy for me to cancel subscriptions or not to get, uh, caught in that web," but it isn't easy for him, and he should, and can and should feel proud that he took control of that, and I think that's also the thing that really is hard in the shame department. The way I always look at it is-Things that are easy for me are hard for them, and things that are hard for me are easy for them. And I mean, honestly, that should be like a match made in heaven if you think about it. Um, but the problem is, because the things that are hard for them are easy for everyone else, you feel like garbage about yourself that they're hard. Instead of us going, "Hey, look, what a wonderful match."
- APAlex Partridge
The number of domains that I still... Trying to cancel the auto-renew of a domain or sending back the returns of a piece of clothing I don't like, it feels like I'm dragging a bag of bricks along the floor.
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
I guess there's no reward right at the end of it, and then the, there is a huge amount of shame because I still have many that are auto-renewing. I still have loads of packages in my flat that need to go back.
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
So I suppose the most important question, what, what do you think we can do to alleviate a lot of the shame and the guilt?
- KPKristen Pressner
Well, first of all, um, once I had my big epiphany that there is an alternative explanation for what I saw, which is biological, which means it's not their fault, and they're not to blame or to credit any more than I should be blamed for being born a middle child, then we need to get the word out on this. Because, you know, ADHD is wildly misunderstood, and it triggers the eye roll, and I don't think we should be rolling our eyes about something that's deadly, and I don't think we should be rolling our eyes about something that's holding back the very gifts and talents and capabilities and potential that is what the world needs now and next. And, and for me, you know, I truly believe I'm on this earth to bring out potential of people. And, you know, I said I would never give another TedX again because they're so much work [laughs] and such a pain. But I did this one because I made a promise to myself that if I cracked this nut for my family, I would tell everyone, so they didn't have to spend years trying to figure out how to crack this nut. And we have got to get the word out to people that there is an alternative explanation. It's nobody's fault, and there's some beauty in hard, easy, easy, hard that's a good match if we could just better understand. I think there's just kind of this common misunderstanding that everything is one way, and it's not.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- 33:07 – 43:31
How to manage rejection (RSD tools)
- APAlex Partridge
I think the hardest part of living with ADHD is RSD.
- KPKristen Pressner
Hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
You, you alluded to it earlier. You mentioned it earlier, rejection sensitive dysphoria, and I truly believe that is connected to the, on average, 10 years lef- less life expectancy. When I'm triggered and in a RSD spiral of sadness or rage, that's the thing that, in the past, has made me drink. Um, that's the past, that's the part of me that has enabled me to go to some really dark places in my head, like the spiral downwards happens so fast, so instantly. It's like a visceral, emotional tsunami inside me that is physiologically painful. How would you describe RSD? How would you term it?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. Yeah, first of all, there's a few things I would rename if I could. ADHD sounds like attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and for me, all of those words are wrong. What it is is an inability to be able to filter and focus everything that's happening all at once. And I think that if people better understood that, we would have a better appreciation. I mean, honestly, when I listen... You know, I sit, watch TV with my husband, and he's like, "What's that?" And it's some sound I tuned out, you know, the flickering of a fluorescent light bulb or a truck going down the street. I think, "Goodness, it must be exhausting to be you." It is exhausting to be him because he doesn't... His brain hears all that, and there are benefits to having a brain that processes it all, all at the same time. There are also negatives to that. And so on RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, so let me rewind. If you were born with a brain that's different than how we all assume the world is, that makes things that are easy for everyone else harder for you, but it's invisible, then how are you going to grow up? You're going to grow up, research shows, with 20,000 more negative messages than your average peers by the age of 14. So if we were age 14 at the same time, I would have gotten 20,000 fewer negative messages than you. "Alex, what's wrong? Alex, why can't you get it together? Alex, you should have done. Alex, you said you were gonna. Alex," blah, blah, blah. Well, is it a surprise that people then go into life and experience deep shame and fear of being rejected? 20,000. That's just by age 14. It doesn't stop miraculously when you hit 14. So, you know, when I look back, I think, "Oh my goodness, did I unknowingly contribute to this for my kids?" Sure I did. Sure I did. And I remember thinking when, when my daughter was in the diagnosis process, it was, it's an embarrassing epiphany, but I remember thinking how I was really trying to advocate for her. She had a teacher. She was at the top of her class, and within a few months, in the m- middle of a pandemic, her grades dropped, and she was, um, no longer at the top of her class. She was at risk of not being able to stay on the academic track she was on. And the teachers brought us in and, with her, and said, "You're not cut out for the top track. You're lazy. You aren't willing to do the work, and you're going down a track." And I remember thinking, "Where was the curiosity how someone could drop so precipitously in such a short period of time?" There was no curiosity about that, and I was really angry about it, and that's part of my why, is I want to get the word out so teachers know, so parents know, so coaches know what I now know.But I was really angry about that, and I was indignant that anyone could speak like that about my daughter to my daughter. She carries it around. She has shame and RSD and a complex because someone in authority told her she was lazy. And then in my next breath, I thought of one of my other children, and I thought, "Ugh, when are they gonna get it together?" That's the same thing. Maybe I did a better job, I don't know, of not saying those things to my kids, but they can tell if you think they don't have it together. [laughs] And so I'm making up for lost time now in trying to make sure that if there were 20,000-plus more negative messages, that I'm, uh, reversing the damage by building in 20,000 more positive messages. Because when I see what thriving can look like in an ADHD family member-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... it's amazing.
- APAlex Partridge
If someone's listening and they relate to the experience of RSD, they, they f- they know what it feels like to have that instant feeling of rage or sadness and, and huge amounts of shame suddenly come over them. 'Cause I've spoken to people on this podcast, and they've suggested that for some people, that can be a really high-risk territory to be in. That could tip someone over into sort of being relatively okay to instant, quite deep depression in that moment. I- in that moment, 'cause it can completely derail you sometimes. RSD is so unpredictable. You could be having a brilliant day, um, and, and someone could say something so small, uh, while you're making coffee at work or on the, on the phone to you, or an email could come in, and there's, and it's just finished just slightly abruptly, and it can really throw you. When you're in that moment where it, where it snaps you into this feeling of r- ra- rage or, or, or sadness or, or shame, how do you deal with, with the, your intense emotions in that very specific, acute moment?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. So first of all, I have not experienced RSD, and so I am careful not to, um, speak on behalf of the lived experience of, of those who have. But I have spent a lot of time and energy trying to understand, and my family members have given their permission for me to talk about this and their experience. Um, and they've opened up and shared with me what they're experiencing so I can kinda get inside their brains and best support them. Um, I can't say specifically how it feels, but these are the kinds of things I've observed. Me saying, "I love your haircut," so I'm trying to give those 20,000 positives, and what I get back is, "So you didn't like my hair before?" "Great job playing football today. I saw you. You were running faster than ever." "Was I slow before?" And that gives me a window into the soul of what it maybe feels like a little bit, um, of RSD. It won't even let you take a compliment because there's a flip side to it. It must have been bad before. Um, and again, I just think, "Wow, how painful and exhausting. Who would choose that? What lazy person would choose that?"
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- KPKristen Pressner
And so here is what I do, and we, we call it in our house being a brain friend. Um, we've agreed that my family members are not allowed to believe everything their brain tells them, and I've agreed, as a brain friend, to be truthful with them about what is, and they've agreed to listen to my assessment. So if I say, "I like your haircut," and they say, "Did you not like my hair before?" We don't get to spiral on that. I say, "I liked your hair before, and I like it now even better," and that's the end of it. And so I do think that a good trick for ADHDers is to have someone you trust who cares about you and loves you. They're beside you, willing to be your what's reality, what's not reality foil. Um, for us, I think it's been really helpful, and they're, you know, I can't think of a family member where I haven't said, "Nah, nope, that's not true. We're not doing that. That's not, that's not the facts." And, um, I think it's helpful to have someone that you trust who can do that for you so that you don't just jump down that rabbit hole.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. It's so interesting and so spot on. I think it's so important to almost collect evidence of your positives, um, past achievements, accomplishments, personal positive traits, that when you are triggered, you can really, like, almost pull out of your phone and read-
- KPKristen Pressner
I know, but what is it-
- APAlex Partridge
... in the moment
- KPKristen Pressner
... with you all? Because you just dismiss away all your superpowers and all of your good stuff, and you just really like to-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... hyper-focus on the, on the negative. And so, you know, I have a, a, you know, a file of kudos or proud moments or whatever, and I can go bask in those if I need an injection of feeling good about myself. But I feel like there's a very strong desire to minimize or dismiss the beauty and the strengths, and, and my theory is, this is back to the easy things are hard and hard things are easy. Um, if, if against the worldly standard, easy things are hard for me, then I stink, and if hard things are easy, well, that's easy for me, so it doesn't count. Well, yes, it does. My family members are so gifted and amazing, they can do things I couldn't dream of, and that was what was so baffling about the whole thing. I would watch them, and I would see all this potential and all this possibility, and I mean, I'm in the potential business. You know, as an HR executive, like, I see potential in people, and then my job is to make it happen, and everything I tried didn't work. And I finally figured out, it's like that children's toy where you put, uh, shapes in a sphere.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- KPKristen Pressner
I was jamming the, the circle into the triangle hole, and if you push too hard, you'll break that toy. They weren't circles, and once I realized, then I could give them triangle advice and triangle care, and then magic happens.
- APAlex Partridge
But I guess people with ADHD are often experts at pretending to be the circle?
- KPKristen Pressner
[laughs] Maybe. Maybe. I, I don't... They'd have to be here to speak on their own behalf, but I don't know that they would say they were masking or pretending knowingly. Um, but I think that the advice and the suggestions that I gave, they make logical sense in importance world, and if you don't know you're in Narnia, not the importance world-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- KPKristen Pressner
... then it's really gotta be baffling why those suggestions don't work.
- 43:31 – 46:20
Masking
- APAlex Partridge
What does masking mean to you? And have you noticed a difference in how it shows up in person to person, maybe throughout your family or just generally in, in within people you've spoken to?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah, I think masking's an interesting word. We've had big debates about it in my house because, um, I think each of my family members really wants to believe that they're being authentically who they are, and masking implies being someone else. Um, but in a perfect world, we wouldn't have built the whole world around importance being what rules the day. Um, but it is the world that we've created, and until we can adapt it and be more flexible, understanding that there are different types of brains, then my family members need to operate in the world that is, as it is, uh, one with taxes and deadlines and keys that get lost and all of that. And so, um, unmasking, I think that I would never wish for anyone to be not who they are naturally, and there's a certain amount of fitting in with the world that you have to do to be able to thrive in the world. You can't not pay taxes. Um, you asked earlier how you get people to do things that they don't find interesting. This is where it's helpful to have six people in the house because if you divvy things up based on what you find least unpalatable, there's generally someone who's willing to do whatever and everything can get done, and I think sometimes the kryptonite for an ADHDer can be thinking they have to do everything all on their own, especially if you're kind of shrouded in RSD and shame. It's like, "I'm gonna do it in my little circle, in my little world here and not let anyone in." And I can imagine it would be hard to let people in, but if you let people in, you can divvy up the work so that the things get done. You know, you could di- have someone return your packages and c- cancel your apps and things like that, and then you can do the things only you can do, like amazing podcasts and things like that. I, I think in this hard things are easy and easy things are hard world, it's so obvious that if we could crack this nut, the world would be a way better place because we would be, instead of crippling people who have these b- these beautiful skills and capabilities, we would be enabling that.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I feel like having a big family, the ultimate delegation tool. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
And I think it's, like you said there, like, talk to someone. I think Ned Haddawell, his key advice was never worry alone, and, you know, that's the hope of this podcast is I feel like not worrying alone often can look like just listening to something, and hear someone say a story similar to yours or, or talk about your experience in a similar way, um, and you feel that kind of, "I'm not alone."
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah.
- 46:20 – 50:42
Positives of being neurodivergent
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think are some of the significant upsides of being neurodivergent?
- KPKristen Pressner
Mm-hmm. Back to the I'm not alone thing, um, I've done a lot of neurodiversity and ADHD advocacy since I've cracked the code, and, um, one of the things that is the hardest for me to hear, but I hear it all the time, I mean, I think one of the hard things is the automatic eye roll and not having people listen, but another one is people will say, "Well, your family's lucky, you know, your hu- your husband had you as a wife, or your kids had you as a mom, um, because that isn't my experience." And this was part of the why behind doing the TEDx talk, the research, and then helping create it with my family. Um, I looked everywhere for something to help me crack the code faster to understand, what have I got going on here and what do I do about it? And I couldn't find it anywhere. It didn't exist, and so I made it, and the intention is that the talk can help people who kind of aren't interested in having this conversation, maybe disarm them a little to keep their curiosity open and have a new understanding, uh, because the key to all of this is, is curiosity instead of judgment, and if... And once people know something, they can't un-know it. And so one of the things that my family members were talking about is, you know, there's, there's a teacher or a coach or maybe a parent or a partner that would benefit from spending 14 minutes understanding this from a different angle with an open mind, and so I created the talk intentionally to kind of be shareable and sneak up on people and help them have this understanding 'cause the people who are, who are probably watching this podcast, who maybe are diagnosed self or, um, through a physician, they, they know this stuff. But the problem is that everybody else doesn't know this stuff, and everybody else is creating the world. And so how can we get everyone else to know? For me, it's scaling this understanding, and so that was why I picked the TEDx format because it's short and tight. It's 14 minutes. It packs a lot of punch, and at the other end of it, you can't un-know, but I can tell you, I don't think you can watch the talk and then on the other side call someone lazy, or at least something inside your brain will be like, "Hmm, um, might there be something else at play here that I need to be curious about?" And back to your question about what are the potential upsides, um, so if you look at the world through the way the world looks at the world through the importance lens, you know, then it's important to be structured and dependable and linear, et cetera, um-And my family members weren't that, so they were, in my mind, not structured, not linear, not, you know, deficit, deficit, deficit. And then I started to look with a new lens at those things. What are the upsides? And it's like, my family members aren't all over the place. My family members are able to pivot when the situation calls for it, which look around. You know, there's nothing if not the need to pivot in today's world. My family members weren't, um, you know, unpredictable. My family members were able to focus on different things when the moment called for it. And so the conclusion that I came to was, in thrive mode, these gifts enable creativity, imagination, dot connecting, um, innovation, things that most companies that I'm aware of would kill for. And if we could create an environment where all of those gifts could come out, that's exactly what the world needs right now. And those are the upsides of ADHD. We need to s- I understand there are ve- there is very real pain. We talked about the very real pain, and I don't want to minimize it, but I, I believe that if we could shift our mindset ever so slightly and all lean into trying to create a world where we let everyone's gifts shine, then all of these positives are possible, and it isn't deficits and deficits and deficits. It's possibilities and creativity and innovation that we need.
- 50:42 – 56:45
Why neurotypicals find it hard to accommodate neurodiversity
- APAlex Partridge
And all of those things are tremendous assets, right, in companies if they're accommodated. So I suppose my question is, why do you think neurotypical people find it so challenging sometimes to accommodate the neurodiverse amongst us?
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah. Well, first of all, I think a lot of people don't see themselves as neurotypical, or it's a language that they're not familiar with. Um, and in the neurotypical population is basically everyone who doesn't identify as neurodivergent already, which could include a whole bunch of people who are neurodiverse as well, neurodivergent as well. Um, but why is it so hard to enable neurodivergent people to have the circumstances that enable them to make all those gifts happen? Why is that so hard? Um, I can tell you, as an HR executive, the first thing that comes to your mind as an employer is, "It'll be anarchy. It'll be anarchy." I mean, if being on time is hard, we can't not have meetings where people are just strolling in, you know, whenever it's convenient, or if meeting deadlines are hard, it can't be that people just don't meet deadlines. Um, so it's hard to comprehend what could be useful. Um, and in my experience, um, there's also a hardness in, if let's say I'm the world's most inclusive leader, and I said, "Alex, I want to be the most inclusive, brain-friendly leader in the world. What are the circumstances in which you shine the most?" Do you feel like you could just rattle off to me what you would need?
- APAlex Partridge
It would be a challenge. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
It's a challenge for most people, 'cause the trick is know thyself, and most people, I work in HR, don't know thyself. And in addition, it's a known struggle for ADHD, H- ADHDers, the interoception, the ability to look inside yourself and know what's going on and read it right, is a challenge. And so for me to be able to accommodate you, you need to tell me what you need, and that's already hard. And so part of what I found, part of being a brain friend, is me using my skills to help my family members or people who I'm around who might have ADHD, help them figure that out, to crack that code for themself. Like, "This is when I see you shine the most," or whatever. Um, but the other thing that's really interesting to me is, you know, people naturally conclude things, crazy things like, "Well, we can't have people based in Fiji," or, "We can't have anarchy," you know, "It would never work if..." But, uh, the research shows that the vast majority of accommodations to help someone who's neurodivergent shine at work costs less than 500 bucks. And so I don't think it would be anarchy. I give you the example. I'm wearing glasses, you're not. You're not sitting there going, "How come Kristen gets to wear glasses in this interview?" I need glasses, you don't. If you need noise-canceling headphones, to be able to have some breaks within your day so that you don't have to power through meetings straight through, to have some autonomy over how you get things done instead of being prescribed the how, those kinds of things aren't expensive and can make a huge difference for someone to be able to bring those amazing gifts that we talked about.
- APAlex Partridge
This is really interesting, Kristen. You, you mentioned there you worked for a, a large glob- global company in their HR department, which I guess means you probably saw people or heard people say things to you that were meant to be kept secret. What did that teach you about the struggles that some people might be facing with ADHD?
- KPKristen Pressner
When my TEDx talk came out, I was inundated with messages from people in my own company and outside of it saying, "That's me," or, "That's my child," or, "That's my partner," or, "That's my coworker," or, "That's my boss. Now what?" And my idea was that the TEDx talk gives everyone a common understanding of what's going on and then rallies people to become brain friends. So I said, "Share the talk. Then we have a common understanding and a common, uh, language, et cetera." And what was interesting to me is nobody wants to. Nobody wants to be associated with this topic. Back to the eye roll. And so I took it upon myself to take the hit, right? I will be associated with this topic. I will go on your podcast and talk about it, because I think we all need to know this. But-There are a lot of people in workplaces who don't feel comfortable, and I understand why, because there's a lot of bias in the world, and you can't put the genie back in the bottle if you let it out of the bottle. And so I don't recommend to people that they disclose at work diagnoses or presumed diagnoses or anything like that. I do recommend that people disclose at work the conditions under which they perform the best, and I think we should all do that. If we all do that, then we can create the conditions where we can get the best outcomes from people and the best innovation and creativity, et cetera. And so I'd love to normalize that so that it doesn't out certain people for having different needs than others.
- APAlex Partridge
If you had a magic wand, what's one global shift in the ADHD conversation you'd like to see?
- KPKristen Pressner
Ooh, I love magic wands. If I had a magic wand, I would love to see there be a common understanding around the world, not just in the ADHD aware community, but in all of us, that there can be a biological reason why things that many of us find fairly easy, such as mundane adulting tasks or listening or things like that, are much, much easier for us than they are for someone else, a biological reason. And that oftentimes that comes with extreme gifts and capabilities that this world needs and would benefit from if we play our cards right.
- APAlex Partridge
Amazing. It's time for my favorite part of the show,
- 56:45 – 58:23
Kristen’s ADHD item
- APAlex Partridge
the ADHD item section. I ask every guest to bring in an item that most represents ADHD, and it will end up on the shelves behind us after you go. But for now, yours is waiting underneath the cloth to be revealed, and I'm gonna do that now. That is a jumper. Very cool. How, how does, how does a jumper, or is it the brain friend bit, represent ADHD?
- KPKristen Pressner
When I finally cracked the code, the code is that we need to create a more brain-friendly environment, and that means that each of us plays a role in figuring out what are the gifts, skills, capabilities, and talents of our partner in any moment and help make those shine. And if we all did just a little bit of that, I do believe we could bridge to a world where everyone's gifts could shine, and I believe that world is worth fighting for. And so the brain friend logo comes from my TedX talk, and, um, a number of people asked me if there was a way to outwardly show their support, uh, for people whose brains might work differently. And so, um, I wanted to bring you for your wall of fame, um, a brain friend jumper to, um, help inspire people to be part of that change.
- APAlex Partridge
Amazing. I feel like I should put it on.
- KPKristen Pressner
Please do.
- APAlex Partridge
Should I put it on? There we go. And now, with the magic of editing, I've got it on. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
Perfect. Looks good on you.
- APAlex Partridge
I'll wear it on the train home too, represent.
- KPKristen Pressner
[laughs] Everyone will be like, "Alex, what is that?"
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs] Actually, no, I won't, 'cause it's gonna stay on the shelves, isn't it? It's gonna stay here.
- KPKristen Pressner
Oh.
- APAlex Partridge
Proudly gracing the shelves behind us.
- KPKristen Pressner
I'm sure we could hook you up with one you can wear on the train.
- APAlex Partridge
There's another. We got two. You brought two, didn't you?
- KPKristen Pressner
I did.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah, we thought, we thought of all circumstances.
- KPKristen Pressner
I thought you might put it on your shelf-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
... so I brought you one you can wear.
- APAlex Partridge
Great problem-solving.
- 58:23 – 59:42
Audience questions
- KPKristen Pressner
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
My second favorite part of the show, Kristen, is the ADHD agony aunt section, um, which is called The Washing Machine of Woes because my ADHD item is the washing machine because it represents memory loss because I always forget my laundry in the machine. And I do ask all my guests, do you relate to that problem in your busy household?
- KPKristen Pressner
To forgetting my washing?
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- KPKristen Pressner
No, but I do relate to finding a lot of washing-
- APAlex Partridge
Oh. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
... and needing to smell it to see how old it's been sitting there. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
The sniff test.
- KPKristen Pressner
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- KPKristen Pressner
Exactly.
- APAlex Partridge
Although I've been using the Tiimo app, which has made my life a lot easier, and I am getting better at remembering the washing. This week, Kristen, in The Washing Machine of Woes, somebody has written in, "I run my own company, and I've noticed people are putting ADHD on their CV for job applications. Should I hire someone with ADHD? I don't know if I trust them. Do they have potential?" That was written in by a member of the audience.
- KPKristen Pressner
Wow. Well, my recommendation is not to lead with the ADHD. Uh, I would lead with the gifts that you have and the set of circumstances under which you thrive the most. But to specifically answer the question, should you consider hiring someone with ADHD? Yes, you should.
- APAlex Partridge
Brilliant. I mean, all those positives you mentioned earlier, right? The creativity, pattern recognition, calm in a crisis, being able to probably see things that other people miss-
- KPKristen Pressner
Oh, yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... easily.
- KPKristen Pressner
I always say if there was a zombie apop- apocalypse, pick my son.
- 59:42 – 1:00:33
A note to my younger self
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs] Just finally, Kristen, I want to deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest, and they wrote a letter to their younger version of themselves. And the idea is that we deliver it to the next guest, which is today you, and, and you read it out for us to hear. There we go.
- KPKristen Pressner
Drum roll, please. Note to my younger self. One day, you will be free beyond your wildest imagination. You will be loved, protected, and happy, but not in the way that you think. It will be exciting and worthwhile. Keep going.
- APAlex Partridge
Wow. Beautiful.
- KPKristen Pressner
It is beautiful.
- APAlex Partridge
Kristen, thanks so much for today. You've made the trip to come over here. On behalf of everyone who's struggling to or grappling to understand their complex brains, thank you so much.
- KPKristen Pressner
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:00:34
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Transcript of episode phhHRcgHe3U
