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The Masking Expert: "97% of ADHD women can’t unmask until they learn THIS!" | Dana Dzamic

Dana Dzamic is an ADHD coach and consultant specialising in masking in women. Dana has helped thousands of ADHD women understand themselves and feel less isolated in their ADHD experience. The ADHD Chatter team have mistakenly referred to Dana as a doctor. This is incorrect and we wish to make that clear that Dana is not a doctor. Further, Dana has made us aware that she does not view herself as a 'world leading' ADHD expert, but rather an ADHD expert. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer  02:07 Dana’s mission  03:32 Why so many women get diagnosed late  07:01 The hidden costs of masking  13:08 ADHD burnout explained  15:25 The solution to emotional burnout  19:32 RSD 23:06 Tiimo advert  24:17 Is people pleasing a learnt behaviour 25:46 Hidden costs of people pleasing  27:47 Social overwhelm explained  33:48 Overwhelm vs laziness  38:14 The solution to overwhelm 39:51 Is ADHD a lonely experience  43:38 The fear of unmasking  45:19 How our environment impacts our ADHD 48:51 A new ADHD coping strategy  51:23 The ADHD item section  52:45 The ADHD agony aunt  56:35 3 rules to live by  Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer Editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dana DzamicguestAlex Partridgehost
Sep 22, 202557mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:07

    Trailer

    1. DD

      Girls start masking very early on because they want to fit in, and they simply know how to camouflage. And because of the way the girls play and communicate, the problem starts showing a lot later, usually reaching puberty. This is why we now talk about diagnosing girls very early on. The question is, why the age of eight? After that age, the communication becomes more complex. Girls find it hard to actually navigate social life. If the girl is not diagnosed, if she's been masking and nobody noticed, and she was great in school and tired at home and had all these symptoms showing up in different places, it can really lead into mental health problems or some other problems.

    2. AP

      Dr. Dana Dzamic is a world-leading ADHD coach and consultant specializing in masking in women. Dana has helped thousands of ADHD women understand themselves and feel less isolated in their ADHD experience.

    3. DD

      People really find it hard to see where masking ends and where real I begins. Unmasking can be as hard as living years and years with masking.

    4. AP

      What do you think the risks are of maybe never going through this process of realization, of never really understanding that you are putting all of this effort into masking?

    5. DD

      I think it is a huge risk for-

    6. AP

      Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in, and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [instrumental music plays] Dana, thank you so much for joining us.

    7. DD

      Thank you. It's very, very nice to be here.

    8. AP

      I feel like this is gonna be quite a emotional episode, covering shame, late diagnosis, masking, social overwhelm. But before we get into all of that, Dana,

  2. 2:07 – 3:32

    Dana’s mission

    1. AP

      what would you say your mission is in the world of ADHD?

    2. DD

      Right. Um, I quite like that question, but, um, uh, I would like to answer without actually, uh, going into too generic terms. So I would like to say it's awareness, understanding, quality of life. However, I do like to translate, uh, lived experience and professional experience, and yes and yes, researching and learning about it into a very practical guidance, and that's why writing the articles and my blog actually offers that. So short articles offering guidance to people who are either diagnosed or they think they have ADHD or they struggle with symptoms and, uh, who don't always find answers. And, uh, that's why I like looking at questions and trying to answer them through my experience, my girls' experience, and professional experience.

    3. AP

      You said your girls then?

    4. DD

      Yes, I have two girls, uh, who are both neurodivergent.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DD

      One has ADHD.

    7. AP

      T- speaking of the female experience, I know 80% of the listeners and viewers of this podcast are women. Um, and I feel like many women come to this podcast and other places because they have been full of shame for so many years, um, masking, pretending to be someone that they're not simply in order to fit in. But I'm curious

  3. 3:32 – 7:01

    Why so many women get diagnosed late

    1. AP

      to ask you why you think so many women get diagnosed late.

    2. DD

      That's a big question, actually, because it has loads of answers. Uh, one part of it is social stigma, uh, and, uh, cultural environment. So there are so many expectations from women to, uh, just cope, to push through, to navigate everything, to multitask, to be compliant in some cultures, to be quiet in some cultures. It depends really how the role of women is perceived in certain cultures. So that's one reason why women make so much effort to actually achieve that. Another reason is because masking is a lot more significant, and it r- research shows that, a lot more significant in women. Uh, so masking is a big topic that I think deserves a lot more conversations. So, um, they do well for years and years, and then it becomes second nature. It becomes, uh, part of personality. So, uh, when women do, uh, years and decades of masking, it's very difficult to unmask, and I think for science and professionals, it took a long time to actually find what is behind the mask and what is behind what is not obvious. Uh, another reason is because, again, um, the ADHD shows, uh, statistically differently. I think there is a big difference between boys and girls. So I think boys are a lot more likely to be recognized early. Uh, so I'm sure I'm not the only one talking about that. Uh, but girls start masking very early on because they want to fit in, and they simply know how to camouflage. Um, and because of the way the girls play and because of the way the girls communicate, uh, the problem starts showing a lot later, usually reaching puberty. Uh, so, um, this is why we now talk about, uh, diagnosing girls very early on. And I would like to mention American charity Find the ADHD Girls, uh, and they have a mission to actually diagnose girls before the age of eight, uh, which is very interesting because the question is why the age of eight. But, uh, after that age, uh, the communication becomes more complex. Uh, socializing becomes more complex. Uh, girls find it hard to actually navigate, navigate social life. They, they're less into just playing and role-playing. Um, they have groups, and that's if the girl is not diagnosed, if she's been masking and, uh, nobody noticed, and she was, uh, you know, great in school and tired at home and had all these symptoms showing up in different places or not showing up, uh, then it can really lead into sort of mental health problems or some other problems.So it's a big topic really

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DD

      I mean, I probably started quite a few [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. DD

      Quite a few hints of all that, but, um-

    7. AP

      No, I'm glad we're talking about it. I think masking is huge. Um, and I think the consequences of masking is you end up not r- truly understanding who you really are. Um, I don't truly believe that ADHD is so much a deficit of attention. I think when someone with ADHD finds something that they're truly passionate about, they don't have a deficit of attention towards that thing. They h- they have an abundance. Um, and then when they find that thing, they can become the best in the world at that thing. I think because of all this masking over years and years and years, ADHD is more of a deficit of self-awareness, um, because as you said, we're, we're brilliant chameleons, shape-shifters and, and we're the world's best actors. We're brilliant at playing the character called normal.

  4. 7:01 – 13:08

    The hidden costs of masking

    1. AP

      But I'm curious to ask you, what do you think the knock-on effects are to someone's self-esteem if they spend years and years and years pretending to be someone that they're not?

    2. DD

      I think it's huge. Um, and all the people I talk to I think it's huge, uh, myself included. So first of all, uh, when st- somebody starts masking, um, as a child, um, people are not aware they're masking. That's how they cope. And, uh, nowadays, maybe they can come across, uh, that term. They can, you know, somebody can suggest that to them. "Do you think you're masking? Are you hiding something?" Uh, when I was a child, and many women my age, um, they didn't know they are masking. They didn't know it's hard for them and less hard for the others, or they can just feel uncomfortable. They can feel tired. They can feel exhausted. They can feel something is not right. Um, and if those questions and articulation of that feeling is not offered to them, they just carry on, and then it becomes the second nature. It becomes part of personality. It becomes learnt behaviour that is very difficult to unlearn. But when we are masking, based on that, we are actually, we are building relationships. We choose profession. We build a professional life. We build, uh, friendships. Um, we build path in life, which way do we want to go. We build families. So all that can be built with personality, which is based on masking, and it's not, um, you know, real person. Um, well, everything is a real person, but, um, sometimes people really find it hard to see where masking ends and where real I begins. And I think as much as we talk about, you know, how much we should recognize masking, how much we should, uh, be aware of that, um, what do we do with that? Uh, unmasking can be as hard as living years and years with masking.

    3. AP

      It's so interesting. If someone builds an entire life around a fake version of themselves, like you said, maybe even a whole family, a marriage, a job, is there a moment where that person might realize that they've built this entire life based on a fake version of themselves? Or, or is it more of a gradual process of realization?

    4. DD

      I think it can be both. So for many people, it comes with diagnosis, so many people struggle with something. They ask for help, and it beco- it, it depends how diagnosis happens. It can be that people start learning about ADHD. They start learning about emotional regulation and, uh, inattention, et cetera. And then they gradually start unpacking all these problems and learning, "Oh, I've been masking all these years." But, uh, sometimes diagnosis comes as very, as a very sudden discovery, so people struggle with something. They ask for help, and then somebody tells them, "Yes, you have ADHD." Um, so, um, it really depends, uh, how sudden, how suddenly or gradually people discover all that. But then even when they do discover, uh, it's still very hard for people to see, okay, what was actually masking? How do I actually do that? When it's safe to unmask, how, how am I going to live this life, uh, you know, without this person I've been building for so many years? And then there is also safety questions, so what is safe, you know, safe space or place to unmask? Uh, so, um, if, if we achieve something and we learn how to cope and we somehow go through life, uh, we still feel like there is a lot to lose. Uh, but then there is a question, okay, am I going to risk that? So is it risky? Is it safe? Uh, when do I do that? Um, how do I do that? How do I have this conversation? Is it a community that is going to be understanding? Is there a stigma? Uh, how do I build this other person? Because we still have to work on our identity and self-esteem, and who am I question for a long time.

    5. AP

      What do you think the risks are of, of maybe never going through this pr- process of realization, of never really understanding that you are putting all of this effort into masking? Because it's exhausting, right?

    6. DD

      It's ex- I think it is a huge risk for mental and physical health. Uh, I think that's a reason why many people have, uh, burnout, which is a very se- serious condition. It can be very serious condition. Why many people end up with depression and severe anxieties, and why many people withdraw from social life, uh, why many people never get the answers what's behind, uh, mental health, uh, issues. And then, uh, it can be a risk for addictions. So it can be the reason for addictions because people can't cope. Um, so I think the risks are huge, and then, uh, especially women, I mean, a lot of them have physical health, um, challenges, so they have, uh, fibromyalgia. Um, they can have, uh, more inflammation, and they can have... Then when hormonal mix comes into that, um, so I think the risks are huge.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. DD

      So it's a conversation we need to have really, and I think that's where it starts, when we start talking about how can we help people to feel better.

    9. AP

      It's such an important topic, and I feel like if you, even if you have an awareness or not of masking, you, you, you still do it, and it's so exhausting, and it's this cycle of burnout. And I think there's a big difference between typical burnout, which I think people just think of, of, oh, they've overworked-

    10. DD

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... and now they're tired, compared to ADHD burnout, which I think is so severe. It can be so sudden, because you're putting so much effort into pretending to be someone that you're not, into fitting in. Um, it can just shut you down. You can just completely detach, full of shame, full of guilt, full of... It's upset that you're not able to maintain this level of perfectionism that there's a big part of you feels like you have to maintain at all times in order to not be rejected. I feel like it can be very, very sudden.

  5. 13:08 – 15:25

    ADHD burnout explained

    1. AP

      I- How would you describe ADHD burnout?

    2. DD

      Oh, I would describe it as a very complex, severe, and serious condition, and I would definitely use the word health condition. Maybe some doctors wouldn't agree with me. But, um, it's not... I think it's often mixed with tiredness, severe tiredness, but I think it's a lot more than that because, uh, it does come with physical tiredness as well, when people are overwhelmed with, uh, sensory issues or just... or being overworked because saying too many yeses at work or accepting too much or committed to too much. However, um, it comes with, as you describe, it comes with shame. It comes with guilt. It comes with, uh, the feeling of being inefficient or failing or, uh, it comes with a lot of, uh, labels, and people end up with labels like lazy, irresponsible, irritable, um, confrontational. Um, and there, there is a lot. I mean, there is a long list of labels that people are given when they actually are failing to do what is expected and when they're trying to mask and still do it. Uh, so some people fail and don't do it, and some people succeed and do it, but then there is a burnout. So when all that is in the mix, um, people just completely shut down. I've seen people who need months and months to recover. And then it's not about just stopping and sleeping enough and having a break and going somewhere on holiday, and then when you come back, you will be fine. I think people often don't know where to start. So how do I recover? How do I deal with all this shame? Because they come back to the same world, so they still have to navigate, do I say yes to this? Do I say no? Do I have to stay in this situation and keep masking? So, uh, they actually face, um, the fear of going back to what we call normal, uh, that led to that burnout. Um, and I think burnout is the word that sounds like a tiredness, and I think that's confusing, and I believe we need different term. [laughs] Um, we need something that will actually, um, offer more understanding, um, about the seriousness

  6. 15:25 – 19:32

    The solution to emotional burnout

    1. DD

      of that.

    2. AP

      What do you think the solution is for women and men who have ADHD and, and they're trying to put things in place to avoid or reduce the effect of burnout? Because it sounds like in order to start saying no to things and to put yourself first, you have to put boundaries around you.

    3. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AP

      But I feel many people with ADHD are quite scared of standing up for yourself because that, in its very nature, is quite combative-

    5. DD

      Mm-hmm

    6. AP

      ... and that exposes you to a criticism or a rejection. Like, how, how does someone with ADHD start standing up for themselves?

    7. DD

      Well, your question has many questions, actually. So, um, I think it starts with awareness. Um, so we have to be aware of, um, we have to be aware of not just ADHD but all these details that I like to talk about. Um, and it's, it's about how my attention works, um, how my energy works, uh, what is rejection sensitivity. Um, and not just what it is, but what are the triggers for me? Is it that I'm working in the office and I'm sitting in a space where loads of people are passing, and then every time somebody's passing, I'm just thinking about, are they going to catch me not doing what I'm supposed to be doing? Are they looking at my snack, which is a junk food or, you know, are they looking at my clothes? Uh, so this is just an example.

    8. AP

      [laughs]

    9. DD

      But I think the awareness of all the triggers. So if you talk about rejection sensitivity, if you talk about, um, any sort of sensitivity to criticism or fear of feedback, I think we have to dig deep into understanding ourselves and understand where does it come from. So it's not enough just to say, "I have ADHD. I have rejection sensitivity." We have to look through the day, look through everything in our life, and, um, really think about how, h- what actually makes me feel worse. Uh, when does it start? How can I prevent it? And then when we understand all that, so it comes from awareness and understanding, when we understand all that, then we have to think about strategies. So that carries a lot of complexities. It can be simple in some communities. So sometimes it's just the matter of being aware and communicating well with the environment. So there are places that are supportive, and we just need to talk to people, explain that, ask for accommodation, ask for understanding, and it can be easy. However, it can be completely different. So there are environments where we can't even start having that conversation. It's not going to be-- We are not going to have that understanding. So we have to think about, how do we com- communicate that? I mean, I know people who, who are diagnosed, who have good understanding of themselves, um, who progressed with that understanding, and they're still not going to disclose. They're still not going to share it. So this decision of not sharing means you have additional task of communicating some- something else, so you have to make excuses. So your question was basicallyHow people can avoid that. So I think we have to avoid triggers very early on. Um, we have to prevent that. So we have to know what do we need, uh, not to stretch ourselves, so do we need more breaks? Do we need different working environment? Do we need, um, to reorganize family life? Uh, do we need therapists, um, who will actually help us recognize that? S- so, I think it's, uh, it's very complex-

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. DD

      ... but it can be very simple. So, uh, to simplify that, it's awareness, recognition, you know, and then working on strategies. But I think working on strategies carries all that complexities.

    12. AP

      Mm. It's like when your boss asks you for a quick chat, but they don't give you any context, and you catastrophize, and you-

    13. DD

      Yeah

    14. AP

      ... you convince yourself that you're going to get fired. I mean, it's very relatable, but I- I often hear, and I agree, that RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, is the worst part of ADHD, and you've mentioned there, um, where does it come from? Um, and there's a theory that it comes from lots of early exposure to criticisms because we are inherently a little bit different. Um, where

  7. 19:32 – 23:06

    RSD

    1. AP

      do you think it comes from? Why are people with ADHD more sensitive to rejection?

    2. DD

      That's a very good question, but I think that's more question for psychiatrists and doctors who would actually look into brain chemistry, because if I take my example, I wasn't really criticized because I was expected to be quiet girls with, you know, quiet, compliant, with good grades, and I was that. So I was actually praised for that behavior, so my behavior was reinforced, and I wanted to please people by doing that for years and years and years. So my whole childhood was, you know, I did- I wasn't exposed to loads of criticism, but I still had very severe, uh, RSD. Um, so I think it's something to do with brain chemi- chemicals-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DD

      ... and I would... So I'm not the right person to talk about it.

    5. AP

      Do you think generally RSD is related to lots of early year criticisms?

    6. DD

      Oh, definitely. It's either criticism or self-criticism. So for, um, those who actually have behavior challenges, uh, or not achieving what they expected, uh, they are criticized a lot. So we have children called lazy, uh, hyperactive, just try harder, uh, you're not trying hard enough, um, concentrate better, um, behave, be quiet. Uh, it starts with that, but then it expands as we grow older. Um, so there is, there is an information that, uh, ADHD children are 80% more criticized than typical children. So you can imagine after years and years of hearing all that, uh, what it does to self-esteem and, um, the, the self-perception and, um, all that. But then also people, especially girls who mask a lot, um, they are sometimes not as, as it's my, my example, not criticized, but they have this self-criticism because even though they are achieving what they're expected to achieve, they put so much effort and, um, they, they actually camouflage and they pretend and, um, they do what is called good bluffing, and they are not really themselves. Um, and um, I remember just working with 10% of my capacity, but the work was, was so boring, boring that I felt like I'm bluffing all the time. So then you have self-criticism. Um, so I think both in the mix, and a lot of the people have both. So, so they're criticized and they do self-criticism all the time, and there is self-blame for not being able to do it. So, um, I do remember with my daughter when she was, um, six or seven, and, um, sh- she was a little bit confrontational and talked too much and, um, there was impulsivity and all that. Um, and then we talked to her, to her about it and she said, "I understand all that, but I can't control it. There is nothing I can do about it." So she was able to articulate that, and it was helpful, uh, as that is the process of discovering what's going on. But so many children are not offered that articulation and they can't say that, and they don't even know they can't control it. They just know it's not happening. I'm trying, I'm failing. I'm trying, I'm failing. And that's going on through years and years of life.

    7. AP

      I feel like rejection sensitivity dysphoria is so crippling for so many people with ADHD. It's almost the Achilles heel. It's the weakness that holds so many people back, and the perfectionism, the people pleasing, the avoiding confrontation, all the things that we do to avoid that pain, that visceral instant pain when we encounter a criticism.

  8. 23:06 – 24:17

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

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  9. 24:17 – 25:46

    Is people pleasing a learnt behaviour

    1. AP

      Do you think people pleasing is a learnt behavior that protects us from rejection?

    2. DD

      Well, it is and it's not. Uh, so we, we still have fear of rejection, so it's not... First of all, there is a percept- there is rejection, and there is perception of rejection. So sometimes we are not really rejected, but we feel rejected. Uh, so you can please as much as you want, but then you can still feel rejected even though you are not. So I think this is what our brain does to us. Um, so one way of putting it is that, yes, people pleasing, the- we do people pleasing because we have fear of rejection, we have fear of criticism. Uh, we don't want to disappoint people. We don't want to do anything wrong. We want to have friends. We want people... It's not that we want people to like us, but we just don't want to be criticized. We just can't cope with criticism. Um, however, [laughs] you know, the problem is that I know so many people who are really, uh, you know, very high up on people pleasing scale, and they still feel rejected. And it's their perception, so they, they feel rejected because of the way people look at them. They can feel rejected if other people have a bad day, and they are not exactly conversational. They have-- They feel rejected if somebody just didn't return a phone call. Um, they feel rejected if they didn't get a job, uh, or interview didn't go well. So i- it had nothing to do with them not being good in it. It's just how it works.

    3. AP

      And I suppose if you are a people pleaser,

  10. 25:46 – 27:47

    Hidden costs of people pleasing

    1. AP

      what do you think the hidden costs are of constantly trying to make everyone else happy?

    2. DD

      Well, that's a good way of asking question, because hidden costs suggest implying it's not for free. [laughs]

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. DD

      So, uh, people pleasing is definitely a very costly, um, behavior. Um, I think we do things we don't feel like doing. We make a lot of effort to have conversations that are not relatable to us. Uh, we go to places we find overwhelming, and we stay in those places, we cope. Uh, so we push ourselves to be in a overwhelming environment. We do jobs that we don't feel like doing. We-- People pleasing could go as far as, um, going to university we don't want to go to, um, pleasing parents and community that expects us to do something. So when I said earlier that, uh, with masking, uh, so masking is very much, masking is, uh, probably the tool for people pleasing. Uh, we build relationships, we build families, we build jobs, we build career. So we go as far as that just because we want to please people, so it's incredibly... It can be very, very costly behavior, and we have to look at it very seriously. It can ruin people completely.

    5. AP

      And I feel like constantly people pleasing and putting on a front, being nice all the time, it's exhausting, right? And that can-

    6. DD

      It is exhausting

    7. AP

      ... can that lead to social overwhelm?

    8. DD

      It can s- le- I, it absolutely does lead to over- social overwhelm, and, uh, it can lead to burnout. We mentioned earlier. So social, social overwhelm is, again, very, I think, very complex because it, it can be triggered with, uh, anything, from being in a noisy environment to, uh, staying, um, to talking to people that we don't want to talk to, to having conversations that we don't find interesting, and it doesn't work, uh, for our dopamine boost, in, uh, maintaining

  11. 27:47 – 33:48

    Social overwhelm explained

    1. DD

      behavior that is not natural to us. Uh, so there are so many, um, so many situations where social overwhelm does happen. Uh, and every minute can be exhausting, but then if you do it every day, if you do it for hours, if you do it for months, and years, and years, and years, um, then again, it becomes learnt behavior. So we are exhausted all the time, and I know so many people, including myself, that, uh, you know, the first... The, the most severe problem they are experiencing is actually that constant tiredness. I did think for years that I have chronic fatigue syndrome until [laughs] I actually learned that's not, it's not that. Because everything was okay-

    2. AP

      Mm-hmm

    3. DD

      ... with my health, so every sort of medical checkup was okay. It didn't give me any answers, but I was constantly fatigued, and I think that's a consequence of social overwhelm and masking.

    4. AP

      What I think is exhausting, pretending to be interested in something that you're not interested in, um, do you think that's why so many people with ADHD struggle with small talk?

    5. DD

      Oh, yes. Uh, small talk is an interesting one. So small talk, in theory, could be an easy way to please people, and we can learn how to do small talk even though it's not natural. But, um, I, I don't know, it's, it... I, I always found it really, really hard. Uh, so I remember when I had my girls, and I had to socialize with moms, and there is nothing wrong about it. Nice people, everyone is interested in raising children, we have so much in common. But then, um, it was very much about small talk, so we talk about weather, we talk about school, we talk about holidays and all that. So I think there is something to do with, um, dopamine, definitely not getting anything exciting. Everything is day to day. Everything is repetitive. Um, and I think it's about maintaining... Uh, it's, it's about trying to fit in, so we are really forcing ourselves to fit into the conversation that is not something that our brain is craving. Uh, so there was nothing for our brain in small talk-

    6. AP

      Mm-hmm

    7. DD

      ... uh, and I think it's very difficult thing to do. Um, and there is a lot of masking that is required for successful small talk. So it sounds very simple, and we, it's, it looks like we can easily learn it, but I think it's very, very difficult, and many people struggle with that.

    8. AP

      It's interesting because you can have really in-depth, meaningful intellectual conversations that might look like they require more effort because they're so in-depth. But because we're interested in them, they're so easy, and yet really mundane chats about the weather, which might look like easy conversations, because we're having to put so much effort into pretending to be interested in the weather-It's the small talks that are actually way more exhausting [laughs] than the really in-depth, meaningful conversations about something that we're truly passionate about.

    9. DD

      Absolutely. And then, uh, with small talk, that is, again, RSD that comes in, because when you make so much effort to do it well, you actually think about all the details. You think about, "Am I saying the right things? Am I looking in the right way? Am I not interrupting? Am I listening to these people? Am I going to be caught in not listening?" Uh, and then you, you're afraid you will look like you are disinterested, you will look bored, you will look, uh, irritable, you will look rude. Uh, so we worry about all these things. So you ma- when you make so much effort to actually have conversations that you make effort to have them, and they're not natural to you, you worry you're not doing well. And then RSD kicks in [laughs] and it becomes worse.

    10. AP

      And when it all gets too much and the social overwhelm really kicks in, what do you think social overwhelm can look like from an outsider's perspective?

    11. DD

      Well, it depends how, how well the person is, how well the person rehearsed masking.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. DD

      So, I'm talking about decades sometimes. So if the person is masking really well, and I, I have to be, um, really reserved saying that, because good masking doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the person. But if the person is successfully masking, uh, it can look like anything. So some... I know people who just, you can't see anything is going on. But it can look like, um, people who is bored. I remember yawning all the time when I was a teenager. [laughs]

    14. AP

      [laughs]

    15. DD

      So I remember being told by my cousin, "Please don't yawn," you know, [laughs] when we socialized. But it can look like irritability. It can look like, um... It can look like drinking. Um, so some people just drink to actually, uh, navigate social, uh, overwhelm. It can look like, um, too much talking, over-explaining, over-apologizing. Um, so yeah, it can look like so many things. It depends whether peop- the person is masking well, coping well, or is just struggling so much that it leaks in different directions.

    16. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DD

      And it can look like severe impulsivity. Uh, I think, uh, in a society, I just wanted to say here, because there is-- We talk a lot about good person, bad person, and I think those terms are overused in different societies, and I think it comes with behavior. So when you have a quiet, uh, compliant, uh, kind, patient person, it's often labeled as a good person, and then people pleasing behavior can look like a very good person behavior. But it's not a good-- I mean, it can be a good person, but it's often just the person who is pleasing because that person is anxious, and it has, she has RSD, et cetera.

    18. AP

      Mm.

    19. DD

      But then bad behavior can be a consequence of person struggling with emotional regulation, being impulsive, um, struggling to have a conversation, and then that person gets labeled as a bad person. Um, so I think we have to be careful. It's overused. Those terms are overused, and they are very generic, and I think so much behavior, uh, attached to ADHD goes into one or another category-

    20. AP

      Mm

    21. DD

      ... which is very, very dangerous for people experiencing that.

  12. 33:48 – 38:14

    Overwhelm vs laziness

    1. AP

      I feel like ADHD overwhelm generally can look like laziness, and that's, it exposes you to comments from colleagues, your partner, perhaps friends, "Why are you so lazy?" Some days, I've described ADHD as having those 10 highly caffeinated squirrels barreling around in your head, and each one's pulling you in a different direction, and that can create overwhelm. And some days that can be so bad, and you can't do anything in that moment of heightened overwhelm other than lie on the sofa and just ride it out. And that can look like, the optics of that can look like laziness, and that exposes you to comments. But I always thought the difference between laziness and overwhelm is if you, if you were being lazy, you would, you would be having a good time when you were lying on that sofa because it would be a choice. Whereas overwhelm is, it looks like you're not thinking about anything, but you're, you're tearing yourself up in your head. You're being so nasty to yourself because of that internal critic, those self-criticisms you, you mentioned earlier. How would you describe the difference between laziness and overwhelm?

    2. DD

      Well, thank you for that question, because, uh, laziness is the most common, and I think probably, potentially the most dangerous misunderstanding of, uh, one of the, some of the ADHD traits. And, um, it comes very often, and I think people with ADHD experience, probably most of us experience that, either as a self-perception or perception by the others. So, um, I don't like the word lazy anyway, even if you don't talk about ADHD, because I think there is always something else. It's either lack of motivation or problems with energy. So I think there is always something else. But as we're talking about ADHD, um, we really talk about, uh, problems with regulation. So, um, usually when people look and appear lazy and appear, uh, uh, and are perceived as lazy, and that's because people are trying really, really hard. So it's incredibly dangerous to actually have a lazy label, and if you are actually putting all the effort you have, all the energy you have, and you still feel like you're failing, and then on top of it, you, you're called lazy. And I think it happens from early childhood. Uh, it's commonly, uh, used in schools. It's used by parents. Uh, I've heard parents describing their children as lazy, clever but, but lazy. I've heard teachers describing children as lazy, and then it comes... You know, it goes through university and work, um, and it, it's just so wrong. So I think we have to talk about the lazy label a lot more. Um, I mean, I remember when I was doing-- I did a lot of research in my life, and I was very excited about idea. For example, what do we want to find out? So research project, uh, and what is the topic and what we are doing, and I was very excited about final results. But I really struggled with the process because you have to deal with a lot of data. You have to analyze data. So, um, me with my scatter ADHD brain, that was a struggle. So I felt very lazy actually struggling through that process because I felt like I, I don't feel like doing it, and I'm constantly pushing myself to do it. And I remember going through day by day, so today I'm going to start in the morning, and I will just make a plan, and I will just do that, and it never happened. And if I understood then, uh, but laziness was a big description of, uh, that struggle with the process. Um, so I think even people who are really struggling, they still call themselves lazy.Because that's a description for not doing something that you're sup- supposed to be doing. Uh, and overwhelm, um, s- so I mean, overwhelm is probably more accurate explanation for what people call lazy, and I think in 90% of cases, um, it's, it, it would be important to use that, that word

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm. And I feel like without an understanding or an awareness that you have ADHD yourself, and you also get told 100 times that you're lazy, you'll truly start to believe that you are lazy. And then you get the diagnosis, or you become aware that you've got ADHD, you understand about overwhelm and the relief that falls over you when you realize that you're not lazy. There's an actual explanation behind why some days you are so overwhelmed that you are paralyzed sometimes.

    4. DD

      Yes.

  13. 38:14 – 39:51

    The solution to overwhelm

    1. AP

      Uh, what's, what's the remedy then, or is there one, to overwhelm? What, what can someone do to alleviate it?

    2. DD

      Well, again, I think, again, a- as we mentioned previously, it starts from awareness and recognition and understanding how it happens. So I think we have to, because we're all different, we have to see how overwhelm happens. So I think we have to be very analytical, and then we have to go through previous life and really see the first signs. So, uh, what is overwhelming for me, it's not, probably not overwhelming for you, or it could be. But I think we have to understand in day-to-day life, um, we have to understand how it feels, and we have to understand the beginning of it and the triggers, and then how we can deal with that. So again, I think it comes from either, uh, working on our own strategies, how to approach that, or actually navigating with the environment, communicat- communicating with the environment. So again, I have, you know, I know people living in places where they can a- actually easily explain, and they can ask for more break, uh, breaks. They can ask for accommodation. They can ask for different working conditions, and in some places people have to look for excuses. Um, so they have to find a way to communicate that. But, um, it's incredibly important to understand the whole process from how it starts until how we reach that burnout. Uh, and sometimes it's not overnight, but people feel like it happened overnight because they cope, and they cope, and they cope, and then suddenly they crash. So I think, I think we have to understand the whole of the coping process and what we're going through until we crash.

  14. 39:51 – 43:38

    Is ADHD a lonely experience

    1. AP

      Do you think generally the ADHD experience and the masking that comes with it, in other words, pretending to be someone that you're not for so many years, can that be quite a lonely experience?

    2. DD

      I think it's a very lonely experience. Uh, absolutely, because, um, as I said before, b- people build... Uh, based on masking, people build their life. They, they build everything, relationships and families and, um, work and, um, profession. And then, uh, it all, it's all based on, uh, expectations, so there is a gap between what we are and what we are expected to be. Um, and then, uh, even if we start being honest with somebody, we still have to live, um, you know, we, we still have to d- the, the, the, the feeling of what we really are and who we really are, and that who am I question, um, is very difficult to answer, you know, uh, without that, you know, when we start unmasking. So I think navigating all that, uh, I actually don't find it easy to explain, [laughs] but I do feel it's very, it's a very lonely experience.

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DD

      Uh, but I... A- and, and people do tell me it's a very lonely experience. So it's not just a matter of whether people can or cannot communicate, uh, what they are and how they feel and, uh, how well or not well regulated they are. But, um, I do think that navigating symptoms and the environment and communication and expectations can be incredibly lonely experience.

    5. AP

      Mm. I feel like it can be quite hard to maintain any form of friendship or social group because there's a version of yourself you put out into the world, and then you come home, you close the door, and you're exhausted. You fall onto the sofa, um, and it's a different version of you. It's like your unmasked version, but the world doesn't know that. So it's very hard for you to make friends in the world when you can't be your, your true self out there, and then you can see a, a picture on social media of a group of, a group of friends out together, and you feel like you're missing out because you haven't put a true version of yourself out into the world to enable you to make friends. Like, uh, at the worst of it, like, where do you think loneliness can lead to?

    6. DD

      It can lead to, uh, mental health challenges, self-esteem challenges. It can lead to problems with identity. I mean, what you described, uh, it often comes as a consequence of masking. Because if you have loads of friends, or you feel like, like people you spend time with, um, and they don't really know the version of you, uh, then obviously there is a fear of losing them. So you don't know what's coming if you start revealing what you are, and, um, many people have that fear, and many people actually make a very conscious decision, "I am still going to mask because somehow I'm coping, somehow." I use that word somehow a lot because that's how people feel. Um, so there is a fear of losing friends, fear of losing a, fear of losing a partner, a fear of, um, failing because we don't know when we start unmasking how is that going to look like. It's almost like you being in a tunnel and then, you know, you are coming out, and you don't know what's in front of you. Um, so that's, that's where loneliness comes back because you still, you're very, very much alone-

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm

    8. DD

      ... with what you really are.

    9. AP

      I feel like it's quite scary as well, unmasking and showing someone who is really important to you your true self, and I get that that's a gradual process. But, you know, for an example, if you go on a first date with someone, you're probably, that's probably a, a universal experience. You're gonna be putting your kind of best self forward.

    10. DD

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      You wanna impress them, and over time you kind of wanna relax into your true self, but that, there might be a considerable dis- difference between how you wereUh, on date number one compared to how you are a year into the relationship.

  15. 43:38 – 45:19

    The fear of unmasking

    1. AP

      Do you think there generally is a bit of a fear about unmasking in front of people that are close to you in case they don't like the new version of you?

    2. DD

      I think there is a huge fear. It depends, uh, what kind of people that people are surrounded with. So I, I normally advise people to actually start in small steps with a small number of people and then I quite like to look into, um, who they have, uh, what is the family situation, what is the friendship situation, and then we start from descrip- describing friends, describing family. And, uh, I would normally advise people to actually find one person and gradually start talking about it, and then just unpeeling slowly. Uh, because I think, uh, there is no such thing as sudden unmasking. I, I don't know how that looks like, and I don't think that many of us would actually struggle with that. So it's not just about how we talk to others, but it's also how we discover ourselves. Uh, so, um, I would always suggest that with unmasking, uh, because there is always, um... it doesn't feel safe all the time. We have to start very slowly, but I think it's really worth working on that gradually and-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DD

      ... constantly pushing through and opening up, you know, more doors. Uh, so, uh, many people, uh, find that, you know, they have one friend they talk to and, uh, you know, it, it becomes a relief, and then they talk to a woman who talk to her husband, and he would be understanding. And then, uh, many people find that parents are not understanding because they are at that age that actually they find it hard to actually start thinking about it. Uh, but, uh, there are loads of good surprises.

    5. AP

      I wanna talk about an, an incredible coping strategy you mentioned off-camera. Um,

  16. 45:19 – 48:51

    How our environment impacts our ADHD

    1. AP

      but just before that, I wanna ask you something I've been thinking about a lot, and that's environment, and how important simple adjustments to one's environment can make such a big difference to someone's lived experience with ADHD.

    2. DD

      I think that's a really, really important topic and not talked a lot, uh, not talked about enough. Because when people discover they have ADHD, they have that knowledge, and then they start thinking about themselves. So they start learning about themselves, understanding themselves, and, uh, but then everyone lives in a certain culture, uh, in either small, very conservative environment or somebody, you know, like we live in London, and in London, people talk about it a lot, so we don't expect that we will shock people, even though we do get surprised that some people still tell us, you know, we are brave to talk about it or well done for actually talking about it. But, um, I, I, I live in different culture as well in, in, in London and, um, in, in my original culture. Uh, that conversation is still not as common. So when people actually find out they have ADHD, uh, on top of learning about themselves and learning about masking and learning about what's, what has been going on for probably decades, they also have to think about, oh, can I tell that to anybody? So there are lots of environments where there is no awareness, uh, or there is awareness, but there is stigma, or there is, um, different kind of stigma. So it could be the stigma, uh, for example, that people think it's a disorder, and it's something is wrong with you. I've heard that a lot. Um, the word disability is very debatable, um, or I have a disability, and I can't do loads of things.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. DD

      Uh, or will people believe me, or... So I've seen people who actually hear somebody disclosing, "I have ADHD," and then people just skip that. They don't know what to do with that information. They just don't even have the awareness. They don't know how to respond. They don't know whether they should feel sorry or they should feel surprised or whether they should ask further questions. So I've seen people just ignoring that and just, you know, going to a next part of the conversation. I've seen people responding, "Oh, you don't look like you have ADHD." Or I've, I've, I've heard comment, "You don't look like something is wrong with you." [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. DD

      Uh, so people face all that in different environments. Uh, so I think people living in more liberal big cities are probably lucky that they're more likely-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. DD

      ... it's not guaranteed, but they're more likely to actually have understanding or at least awareness. But in so many parts of the world, and I even think in some smaller places in the UK, uh, people don't have that. So I think that's additional huge challenge. If they don't feel like they can talk to their family, if they don't feel like they can talk to their friends, they can't even say, "I have diagnosis." They can't even say, "There is an explanation for my impulsivity or for my drinking or for me being late all the time or for me not being able to study as much or have a good grades." Uh, they don't know where to start if there is no understanding.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. DD

      And then I've also heard denying. "So no, no, no, that's, that's not an explanation. Uh, you, uh, you just didn't try hard enough." So even the explanation is there, so the person is trying, there is still denial.

  17. 48:51 – 51:23

    A new ADHD coping strategy

    1. AP

      And you mentioned a coping strategy off-camera that filled me with hope, um, 'cause so much on this podcast, I speak about coping strategies that are, are targeted at the executive functioning challenges, like how to be more organized. But I'll let you explain it, the, the, the, the emotional coping strategies.

    2. DD

      Yes. So, um, I think once we find out we have ADHD, we, we have to start working on, okay, how... That, that's the answer why. Why so many things happen in my life and why I struggled so much in this and that.When we find out and we start learning and understanding, we start working on how, how do I cope? How do I deal with this? How do I become more productive? How do I regulate myself better? However, what I think is still happening is that a lot of coping strategies are still pushing us towards neurotypical world. So people want to be more productive, but more productive can mean I want to stay in my office, which is open plan, with sensory overwhelm, with too many people around me, too many meetings that I find completely irrelevant for me doing my job properly, um, too many, uh, conversations that, uh, uh, just disrupt me, and, you know, I can't hyperfocus, and if I hyperfocus, that would be so, so good. So what I think is always a question that we have to ask ourselves, and I think people who support people with ADHD, is, do you want to, um, find a way to be more neurotypical, or you want to actually put more effort in being yourself and advocating for yourself and asking for adjustments and, um, accepting, just don't change? Are you going to do better by changing, or are you going to do better by actually just accepting and communicating what you are with the others?

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. DD

      So I think that's a big question that we always have to ask before we actually start doing anything about our symptoms because, uh, the question of productivity is very often the question of how work environments are s- s- set, set up. It's not about us. It's about the environment-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. DD

      ... which is just set up for some kind of definition of average, and so many people don't fit into that.

    7. AP

      Such good advice, and I think it's such a good reminder of something I say on this show all the time is that, you know, we're not broken, we're, we're different. We're brilliantly different.

    8. DD

      Yes.

    9. AP

      Um, and if at the moment, many people with ADHD truly believe that and they lean into their strength, that's when they start to thrive.

    10. DD

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      This has been truly fascinating.

  18. 51:23 – 52:45

    The ADHD item section

    1. AP

      I wanna move on to my favorite part of the show, which is the ADHD item section. Um, I normally say it's been patiently waiting underneath that cloth, your ADHD item, but in true ADHD fashion for myself, I wasn't clear [laughs] um, in the email when I sent to you asking you to bring one. So we don't have one here today, which is my fault, but-

    2. DD

      It's actually my fault as well because I didn't read-

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. DD

      ... your, your email carefully.

    5. AP

      We're both people pleasing here. [laughs]

    6. DD

      So that was clearly written in your email, but I just didn't read it. [laughs]

    7. AP

      We can do it verbally-

    8. DD

      Yes

    9. AP

      ... which is still exciting. What would your... What is your ADHD item, an item that represents ADHD?

    10. DD

      So the, the first thing when you asked me that, that came to mind, uh, was sewing kit without needle, and I think for me it represents executive function, so needle, uh, represents executive function. So sewing kit means it's all there. You have creativity. You have emotions. You have, uh, thinking. You have capacities. But then executive function is like your brain project management, manager that really needs to put all that together, so it needs to do that planning and organizing and prioritizing, and the needle is not there. Uh, so that was my item.

    11. AP

      Fascinating. There was so much potential for, for amazing creations, I suppose, but without the needle, there's just that one piece of the jigsaw missing.

    12. DD

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      Fascinating, Dana. Thank you so

  19. 52:45 – 56:35

    The ADHD agony aunt

    1. AP

      much, and I wanna move on-

    2. DD

      Pleasure

    3. AP

      ... to the ADHD agony aunt section, which, where a member of the community wr- writes in with a question, and it's called the washing machine of woes because my ADHD item is a washing machine, [laughs] um, because I always leave my laundry in the machine after the cycle finishes, and I do ask all my guests, do you relate to that?

    4. DD

      I don't relate to that. I don't forget my washing. [laughs] But I can relate to washing machine in a different way. So for me, washing machine does represent ADHD because I think we can do better washing. We can have better detergent. We can have, you know, better ways, b- we c- we can use more chemicals to actually have our laundry washed nicer.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DD

      Uh, but it's still within that, you know, washing machine, and we are still going back to who we are, so you know, we are still going round and round. [laughs]

    7. AP

      I love it. So two ADHD item explanations-

    8. DD

      Yes. [laughs]

    9. AP

      ... which is brilliant. That's, um, yeah, a different way to think about it, which is also, I have to say, I've been using the Tiimo app, uh, which has helped me remember my washing from time to time, but still the, the smell of damp is often the, the final reminder. Um, this week, Dana, someone's written in and asked, "I feel like I've masked for so much of my life that I don't know who I am, but I can't stop it. It just feels so natural for me to try and fit in. Is this a good thing for my mental health, because I feel exhausted all the time?"

    10. DD

      Great question. Uh, so, uh, there are two things in that question. So one is, I've been doing it all my life, and it's kinda working for me, so it's giving me results, but what results? It's just what others expect to be results. But then because it's e- exhaustion is there, it's, uh, it clearly indicates that a person needs to start, you know, unpeeling that and working on opening up. Uh, but because there is a whole life of masking, I think it needs to be done very slowly, very gradually, in small steps, looking for safe zone to do it, um, and, uh, taking a long time.

    11. AP

      How does one u- like unmask? I- 'cause I know we've spoken a lot in this episode about unmasking, but if you were to take a, a s- your first step towards revealing your true self, like what would that first step look like?

    12. DD

      I would start from questions, um, let's make a list of things I'm constantly doing and I don't feel like doing. Or let's make a list of things I find really hard, and I still do them well. Uh, or let's go through the day, and I think, for example, diary or journal of-How my, my day looks like. When I wake up in the morning, what do I feel like doing? What I'm really struggling with. I mean, none of us feels like, you know, cleaning the house or doing laundry all the time. Some of us enjoy it, but, um, so obviously we all have to do things we don't feel like doing.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. DD

      But, uh, I think there is so much in our daily life that we really struggle with and people still tell us, "You're so good in doing it," or, "You are failing in doing it." Uh, we have to think about what we do as work, what stimulates us, who are the people we see all the time and we don't feel like we- it's a drag, we don't feel like doing that. Um, so I think we have to start from that list, from that awareness.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. DD

      And then it can be very overwhelming because it can be a lot. It can be that we start from something and we still don't want to admit how much of it, and it can be painful because some people realize, "I've been in a completely fake marriage for years, and with unmasking I'm realizing this is not for me." So it can be as dramatic as that. But it can be, "Why do I have to stay in this job? Let me think about something else." Um, so it can be very cheerful.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. DD

      Uh, very, it can open up creativity. It can make people feel good, or it can be very depressing.

    19. AP

      Dana, just before we finish,

  20. 56:35 – 57:27

    3 rules to live by

    1. AP

      I want to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest where they wrote their three rules to live by.

    2. DD

      Okay. That's exciting.

    3. AP

      I'll pass, pass you the letter, Dana.

    4. DD

      Thank you.

    5. AP

      Thank you so much.

    6. DD

      So three rules to live by. Uh, love and be loved. Um, this, this one is lovely. Lovely. [laughs] Uh, be creative. Uh, control your glucose and, uh, insulin level. Yeah, control your glucose and insulin level. Um, lovely.

    7. AP

      Amazing.

    8. DD

      And do I read who is it from or?

    9. AP

      It was from Georgia Eade.

    10. DD

      It was from Georgia, yes.

    11. AP

      He's, he's a, he was a brilliant guest.

    12. DD

      Yes. Thank you. This is, this is very, very nice and very useful as well. [laughs]

    13. AP

      Dana, thank you so, so much for your wisdom and on behalf of all of the viewers and the listeners, this has been absolutely incredible. Thank you so much.

    14. DD

      Thank you. Pleasure. [outro music]

Episode duration: 57:27

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