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The Psychologist Who's Assessed Over 700 Children for ADHD: "Here's what we NOW know about ADHD"

Dr Daniel Weisberg is a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and the Managing Director of CAYP Psychology – an award-winning, independent service supporting children, adolescents and young people across the UK. Daniel has over a decade of NHS experience and a specialist background in paediatric neuropsychology. He holds a PhD in developmental psychology and a Doctorate in Clinical Psychology, and has contributed to clinical research internationally. His clinical specialisms include paediatric neuropsychology, developmental disorders, and complex presentations in children and adolescents. Daniel founded CAYP Psychology in 2016, which now has a team of over 100 specialised clinicians working across the UK. The service offers nationwide assessments for autism, ADHD, cognitive and learning difficulties – including dyslexia and learning disabilities – as well as therapeutic support across more than 40 locations and online. Under his leadership, CAYP Psychology has grown into one of the country’s leading independent services for young people’s psychological healthcare. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 02:31 Dan’s mission within the ADHD world 05:24 3 signs of a good Psychologist 11:52 Traits of ADHD that aren’t accepted by the modern world 13:51 How ADHD manifests in romantic relationships (attachment styles) 17:16 The gene that research suggests causes ADHD 20:28 The most common ADHD attachment style 22:05 What causes RSD 25:16 Tiimo advert 26:60 The emotional benefits of a diagnosis 29:36 Why ADHD women and girls were missed for so long 34:07 Common emotions amongst late diagnosis ADHD women 38:03 The truth about ADHD, technology and social media 44:34 Can mobile phone use change someone’s default level of dopamine 47:13 How young can someone become addicted to something 50:50 Dan’s ADHD item 53:03 The ADHD agony aunt 55:03 A letter from the previous guest If you're looking for support for your child, you can contact CAYP Psychology on 0333 242 0824, WhatsApp 07446 502 690, email enquiries@cayp-psychology.com, or visit www.cayp-psychology.com Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Producer: Timon Woodward Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer Editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Daniel WeisbergguestAlex Partridgehost
Jul 21, 202556mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:31

    Trailer

    1. DW

      We see ADHD and autism as a language of difference, not of a disorder. The D should be for difference. The difference in your brain means you have to approach things differently. There are many people who have ADHD, if we were to do genetic testing, you probably wouldn't find something. There is no gene that causes ADHD. There are a handful of genes that have been identified that say if they are faulty or don't necessarily work in the same way as they should be working, you have an increased susceptibility of then developing ADHD.

    2. AP

      Genes load the gun-

    3. DW

      Mm

    4. AP

      ... and environment pulls the trigger when it comes to developing ADHD. Is it possible to develop ADHD without being born with that loaded gun?

    5. DW

      It's a really good question. When families come to see me, um-

    6. AP

      Loyal listeners and viewers, I can't thank you enough for tuning in to ADHD Chatter where we ask world-leading ADHD experts the hard questions, to give you access to the most cutting-edge information on the topic. If you've ever felt broken or different, I hope this helps in your search for information, answers, and community. And do you know what would really help me in return? By clicking the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. It might not seem like much, but at ADHD Chatter, it means a huge deal, and with this I can book more incredible guests and keep the self-discovery fire alive for all of us, including myself. Just one click of a button goes a lot further than you think. We'll promise to listen to your feedback and book the guests you want on topics that matter to you. And remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. Dan, thank you so much for joining us.

    7. DW

      Thanks for having me.

    8. AP

      I feel like this episode's gonna be really therapeutic for me, as someone who felt very different when they were younger, as a child growing up, um, feeling very misunderstood.

    9. DW

      Mm.

    10. AP

      I think when I started this podcast, I said I wanted to... I wish I could've gone back in time to, to put my arms around the younger version of myself to, to reassure him that he's not broken, just different, and that he has always been enough.

    11. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AP

      Um, but of course I'm not able to do that. But the, the thing I can do is speak to people like yourself in the hopes that a younger version of me does hear something that triggers their journey of understanding earlier than I did. Um, so on behalf of the younger version of me, thank you so much for, for being here today.

    13. DW

      Oh, it's a pleasure. That's a really nice reflection. I think a lot of adults feel exactly the same, um, and if we can help at all, that's, that's our job.

  2. 2:31 – 5:24

    Dan’s mission within the ADHD world

    1. AP

      Just to kick things off, Dan, what is your mission in the world of ADHD?

    2. DW

      That's a really good question. Um, so I'm a consultant clinical psychologist, um, and my... The job of a psychologist is to understand, uh, to find out what's going on and why it's happening, because particularly in ADHD, there is a distinct lack of understanding and a lack of knowing what's going on. It's misunderstood. It's misrepresented. It's... People see what's on the surface, not necessarily what's underneath. The, the example that I often use is that of a, of an iceberg.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. DW

      So if you imagine, like, an iceberg, what you see on top of the water is the visible bit of an iceberg, and that's the bit that is obvious and what we see, um, and that's what we talk about and that's what's there. But the psychologist wants to understand what's going on beneath the water, and with an iceberg, there's a huge amount going on underneath.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DW

      That's the stuff that isn't directly obvious. That's what's hidden away, and my job is to try to understand that, and if we can do that and share that with parents and teachers and educators and professionals, the amount of support that we can offer, uh, is, is, is, is great.

    7. AP

      Just following on from that iceberg analogy, which I totally relate to, um, what traits and personality features or aspects of someone do you think would be above the water?

    8. DW

      Mm. Um, they... The, the things above the water are the things that we directly see, which funnily enough is more the case in boys. Um, not always, but, but often is the case. It's the stuff that is externalized. So that's the visible parts of behavior.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. DW

      Things that you do, things that you say, the way that you move. So, so your activity levels, your impulsivities are the things that, that come out of your mouth or the things that you do, um, the interactions that you have. Anything that is visible is what is above the water. That, that's the stuff that because we can see it, people think that's, that's where the problem is-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. DW

      ... and that's where the attention goes. I want to be thinking what's underneath the stuff that's hidden. That's the stuff that looks at family background and behind the scenes, reading between the lines and the stuff that is harder-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. DW

      ... to interpret.

    15. AP

      What about shame?

    16. DW

      Mm.

    17. AP

      Would that be something that's below the water?

    18. DW

      The feeling of it would absolutely be below the water. The emotion of it-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. DW

      ... might then show itself. But yeah, absolutely, it is feelings and emotions and where those emotions come from. You don't just one day feel shame.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. DW

      It's built up over time, and it can appear in a very obvious way, but it's the background stuff, how do we get to that point, the, the hidden stuff that is driving it that's really important.

    23. AP

      If someone's coming to you and, and they want to go explore their life, ex- whether it's themselves or their kids, and they, and they wanna understand what is below

  3. 5:24 – 11:52

    3 signs of a good Psychologist

    1. AP

      the water-

    2. DW

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... what would you say is a sign of a good psychologist, someone who really understands how to look below the water?

    4. DW

      Yeah. Um, [laughs] by not doing what comes naturally, which is a really weird place to be. So the natural response is to respond to exactly what you see in front of us. So if, if, if your child is behaving in a certain way, they're, they're a bit active, they're a bit impulsive, they are responding in ways that you as a parent might not necessarily approve of, we go straight to that. "Don't do that. Stop doing this. Don't shout. Oh, you're terrible." You know, and it's-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. DW

      ... that's the response. I, I do it as a parent all the time. I say, "Don't do it. That's not the way it's gonna help." But that's, that's what we see, and that's what we respond to. It's about taking that step back. How do you-Put a pause on things. How do you take a step back and see what's happening and why it's happening? So the, the, the line that I often say to many families is, "Every behavior, everything that you see above that water, is an expression of something." So it's a communication of some type. I'm tired, I'm bored, I, I'm in pain, it's... I don't like it, whatever it might be. But we're talking about children who don't necessarily have the words of, "I'm tired, I'm in pain, I'm bored," so it comes out through behavior. So we have to stop that initial intuitive response, which is clamp down on the behavior, take a step back and understand it-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. DW

      ... so that we're then in a much better place to focus underneath the waterline.

    9. AP

      If someone's at that age where they have not developed language yet and they don't know how to express emotions, how does that person feel things like shame, things like RSD?

    10. DW

      Not in the way that we as adults would feel.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. DW

      So in terms of... So emotions are a really powerful one. Um, shame, regret, disappointment, all of those sort of strong feelings, we as adults can sit here and try to talk it through. Like, we can sit in a nice calm place, explore those feelings, think about it and talk about it, and put words to it. You are never gonna sit down with an eight-year-old and think about, you... The, the feeling of shame and how you came about that, and the impact on other people. You might comment on it, but you're never gonna get more than a quick conversation before your child is then off wanting to do more interesting things-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. DW

      ... Minecraft or whatever it might be. Um, so you are... You have to find more creative ways of exploring it, but it's going to come out from that child through their behavior, through their actions, through the things that they do or the things that they interact with or the way they respond in certain ways. Now, and they'll express that at home, they'll express it at school, they'll express it out and about. We have to try and understand why that behavior is happening.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. DW

      Now, we can do that as parents. We can take a step back and sit and try and think about it. It's much harder in a structured environment like school. If you are feeling shame of some sort, you've got no way of expressing it or you find it hard to express it, how on earth are you gonna be able to express that healthily through difficulty? So it's gonna come out through your behavior, the way you interact with your peers, the way that you interact with schoolwork.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. DW

      It's tricky.

    19. AP

      I remember, or I think I remember, my first feeling of, it was either RSD or it was justice sensitivity. I was about six years old, boiling hot day at school. The mud was really dry.

    20. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. AP

      And everyone was having fun digging in the mud and I thought, "What could I do to make this task easier, make digging in the mud easier?" So my, my parents were having some work done on their house at the time. I found this, this box of nails. I brought this box of nails into school.

    22. DW

      Okay.

    23. AP

      Um, and I suggested to all the other kids, like, "Let's, we can use the nails to help us dig in the dry mud to make it easier."

    24. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AP

      Um, someone cut themselves, there was blood everywhere, and the teacher said, "Who brought these nails in?" And I said, "I brought the nails in." Um, and I, uh, and they called my parents in and I had a meeting with... And I remember the teacher called me stupid. Um, and objectively as an adult now, I can look back on that and see how dangerous that was-

    26. DW

      Mm-hmm

    27. AP

      ... me bringing nails into a, into a school. But at the time, I remember after the meeting and my parents went home, I went off to a quiet area in the playground, a co- into a corner on my own, and I remember the rage. Like, I remember-

    28. DW

      Oh, yeah

    29. AP

      ... feeling this rage inside me. Um, and I isolated myself and I just sat with the anger, and that's a core memory that I have. Do you think that feeling is a response to the injustice of the situation, i.e., my intentions being misrepresented by that teacher, or do you think it was a, a, a, uh, f- an RSD trigger?

    30. DW

      Mm-hmm. Or both. Or, I mean, that is, that is the perfect demonstration of the iceberg, of what we're talking about. The, the, what is seen on the surface is awful child brings in dangerous nails and is a danger to society.

  4. 11:52 – 13:51

    Traits of ADHD that aren’t accepted by the modern world

    1. AP

      What traits of ADHD do you think are not accepted by the modern world, and therefore if someone goes through their life with that trait, would potentially lead to a feeling of being broken?

    2. DW

      Yeah. That's really sad, isn't it? Really sad. The- it's-Uh, and it, I, I feel it's, it's even more so because that's entirely avoidable-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DW

      ... um, and we shouldn't have to feel like that. But that, I think, is because the system, in inverted commas, is not set up for neurodivergent children. Um, the system works for most people. And when I say the system, I'm talking about everyday life here, the way the mainstream schools are set up. And, and of course, there are exceptions. I'm not denying that for one moment, but the majority of schools are set up for the majority of pupils, which, for the majority, works. Uh, but for those children who struggle with that, they just cannot access it. And if you can't access it, you then struggle against it. Yet being told that you're struggling against it because you are the problem.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DW

      You are naughty, your behavior... Above the iceberg. Like, what we see is not acceptable. You are responsible for this, therefore it's your fault. And you're given this message of, "You are the problem." That's gonna break anybody.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. DW

      Um, that, that, what, an awful thing to have to experience. So we want to try to... We're, we're working hard with schools to try to-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. DW

      ... change that. I think that is changing. It absolutely is, but there is a long way to go with it.

    11. AP

      I feel like if you are a, a, a child with ADHD and you are exposed to feeling different and, and feeling misunderstood, it's almost like you're gonna potentially be an adult that is so desperate of other people's approval. Um, and if you sense that approval is taken away, it could almost snap you back to the, the perhaps traumatic experience of, experiences of your childhood.

    12. DW

      Mm.

    13. AP

      And with that turbulent character,

  5. 13:51 – 17:16

    How ADHD manifests in romantic relationships (attachment styles)

    1. AP

      how that looks in romantic relationships, do you think?

    2. DW

      I think it, that's a very, there's a very strong relationship that is there. So you're touching on something that starts not just in experiences in being a, being a child, even earlier than that. So there's a very significant theory. It's not a theory, it's reality. It's still known as a theory. It's called attachment theory, which essentially says your experiences from a very, very young age, so your earliest possible years, even before you are born, form your model of the world. And this, this is essentially your expectation of how the world is. So your experiences as a very young child tell you how people interact with you. It tells you what you can expect from relationships. It tells you how you expect the world to be, and it teaches you rules of the world. And what then happens is, as you continue to grow up, that, that expectation, that model starts to solidify in your brain, so that then becomes your reality. So, and then you go through the rest of your life based on that reality of what you're experiencing. So if in your earliest years you are given love and kindness and compassion and care and healthy relationships, um, when something goes wrong, you've got parents or support people to, to help you, that teaches you that sometimes things go wrong, but it's gonna be okay. Um, and that's, that's what we call a, a secure attachment.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. DW

      But sometimes there are young children who develop insecure attachments, which is when you don't have that same relationship, which can sometimes mean you... I- if you're upset, you might get inconsistent care. So you might get a cuddle, but sometimes you might be ignored, sometimes you might be shouted at, and worse, sometimes you might be abused. Um, and that teaches you that that way of the world, it then becomes your normal. So then as you go through the rest of your life, that becomes your expectation. So if you have been brought up with an insecure attachment, yet find out that the world doesn't really work like that, you are forever fighting against it. And that idea is critical in ADHD because it might not necessarily be about that earliest possible experiences, but it's your experiences that you have at school that form your understanding of how the world is.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DW

      And so if you are taught that you are going to be shouted at or scapegoated or blamed, then that's what's going to become of your expectation of the rest, uh, of the world as you grow up. It doesn't have to be, but that's often a pattern-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. DW

      ... that we find. And so you then go into adulthood and develop intimate relationships. Sometimes that then causes a real conflict because if, especially if you have someone who's not necessarily as understanding of you as you might need, all of your early experiences then come to dominate that relationship. Again, not always, but that's the general pattern that we often see. Meeting someone who gets you and understands you-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. DW

      ... and is on your wavelength and can support you when you need, and be there when things are going great, but understand when you're having a tricky time, means that you can have an exceptionally happy life. There's no reason why you shouldn't have that. But it- y- we have to consider it in your relationships as you grow up.

    11. AP

      You said sometimes your attachment style can be determined pre-birth.

  6. 17:16 – 20:28

    The gene that research suggests causes ADHD

    1. DW

      Mm.

    2. AP

      Does that mean there's a genetic component?

    3. DW

      Yes, there does. So a lot of work has been done into this. Um, and now there is no gene that causes ADHD. So it's not like there's one specific gene, and if you have that or you don't have that-

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. DW

      ... you're gonna have ADHD. But there are, there are a handful of genes that have been identified that say i- if they are faulty or don't necessarily work in the same way as they should be working, you have an increased susceptibility of then developing ADHD. Um, there is, there's one gene, i- it's... Now, I, I'm a psychologist, not a medic, so I'm hoping not to butcher this-

    6. AP

      [laughs]

    7. DW

      ... explanation of it. But I do know of one gene called the, the DAT1 gene, the D-A-T-1 gene. It's a dopamine transporter gene, which, uh, I had to, I mean, I had to Google what that actually means, but essentially in your, in your brain when two neurons connect to each other, there is a gap between them called the synapse.

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. DW

      And in there builds up dopamine, and this DAT1 gene is responsible for clearing that dopamine through that gap.I mean, our brains do amazing things

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. DW

      This is all happening without us even knowing. But if you have a faulty gene, it means it can build up in that gap, which can then potentially lead to increased displays of what we see in, in ADHD

    12. AP

      Sure.

    13. DW

      Um, now what we do know is that there is a very strong link between that gene and mothers who drink during pregnancy, so that gene is expressed more in, in moms who drink during pregnancy. And so what we see there is, there is a genetic component, but there is absolutely an environmental cause that can almost trigger or, or, or show off that gene-

    14. AP

      Mm

    15. DW

      ... in more detail. That's... And that's our understanding of how ADHD works. There might be sort of a genetic basis to it, but there has to come an environmental factor alongside it to, to help to develop that expression of it. And that's why I believe the, the support that we put into place for ADHD is not just that of a medication to change the biology, but it's the environmental side and to develop the, that side because it's, there's a lot of nurture to it-

    16. AP

      Mm

    17. DW

      ... as well, not just the nature side of things.

    18. AP

      We had a guest on following on from that who, who said that genes load the gun-

    19. DW

      Mm

    20. AP

      ... and environment pulls the trigger when it comes to developing ADHD. Um, do you agree with that? And, and if... Is it possible to develop ADHD without being born with that loaded gun?

    21. DW

      Now, you see, I knew I'd butcher it, because that is a much clearer explanation-

    22. AP

      [laughs]

    23. DW

      ... of exactly how it works. Yeah, absolutely. What a brilliant visual description, and that, that's absolutely right. Now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that has to be the way.

    24. AP

      Mm.

    25. DW

      There are, there are many people who have ADHD. If we were to do genetic testing, you probably wouldn't find something. Um, you might do. I, I, I don't know. But I, I'm, I don't think that has to be the only way, because it's the, it's the world around you and the expression of it-

    26. AP

      Mm

    27. DW

      ... that is exceptionally important. Look, you're talking to a psychologist here.

    28. AP

      Mm.

    29. DW

      I'm interested in how the world works and how we respond to each other, not necessarily the biology of it, although it is an important factor

  7. 20:28 – 22:05

    The most common ADHD attachment style

    1. AP

      Mm. Do you see a, a, a common attachment style with those who have ADHD?

    2. DW

      Now, that is a really good question. Um, I... So I work predominantly with children, um, so I... That might not have expressed itself just yet. So working with children, you do-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DW

      ... a lot of work with parents and supporting parents to then support their children or supporting teachers to support their pupils, and we don't necessarily get to that detail.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DW

      Um, I would expect that that would form a significant part of support for adults. Absolutely. And, and I believe it probably should do, um, if, if we want to go down that route. It's that Pandora's box. Do we really want to open this?

    7. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    8. DW

      Do we really want to explore this? But sometimes if you struggle to hold down relationships or, or manage employment or just find the world too difficult to manage, maybe actually exploring it could be really helpful. And going back to your earliest years-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. DW

      ... I think is a significant part of that exploration. And this is why therapy, psychological therapy, is difficult. It's exposing. You know, we're, we're going back to things that we probably don't even think are things, but are important to consider, definitely.

    11. AP

      I think with relationships, for me, RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, has been such a catalyst for, for chaos-

    12. DW

      Mm

    13. AP

      ... and, and destruction, uh, in the past, and ultimately, I think why, why relationships and friendships have, have buckled, um, and failed. Um, and knowing the people who listen to this podcast, I know how prevalent RSD is with them-

    14. DW

      Mm

    15. AP

      ... too.

  8. 22:05 – 25:16

    What causes RSD

    1. AP

      Um, do you have any theories as to what RSD is, what causes it, where it comes from?

    2. DW

      I, I would like to... I, I don't think we can solely attribute this to ADHD. I think that is the predominant driver of it, absolutely, but I think we do need to look at wider pictures, under-the-surface stuff again. So that starts with that earliest possible attachment. I think that is a really important part of it. Again, w- I, I, I really want to emphasize the point that we're talking generally here, so some of the things that we say don't necessarily apply to some people.

    3. AP

      Sure.

    4. DW

      But we know that if we take a step back and scale this across the whole ADHD world, it's a general pattern-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. DW

      ... that we see. So the way that we are brought up, the experiences that we have at home, your example of the experience with nails and being in the playground, all forms part of you. Um, I sort of imagine it a bit like a, like a bucket or like a vessel in a way, that you have buckets. One I use with children. It's much nicer words than a vessel.

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. DW

      Um, but it's essentially the things that you have with you and that you carry around with you, but you don't even know you're carrying it with you, and it's things that have happened in your life. And again, sometimes there are things in there that you don't even know are things, and your experiences build up and up and up. And sometimes there then becomes an event, something big that then allows all that previous stuff to then express itself. So you might be going around perfectly well, holding your bucket, thi- skipping around, thinking everything's absolutely fine, and then suddenly there is a trigger of something, and all that earlier stuff just comes pouring out. And that might show itself through RSD. It might show itself through difficult relationships, and that's where we sometimes see sabotaging things, people almost ruining things for themselves. Again, not, not purposefully, not maliciously, but get to a place where they, they find it really hard to deal with whatever that set of circumstances is-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. DW

      ... because of all that stuff that's happened previously. So you don't just one day wake up and sabotage a relationship. It, it's, it's a developmental thing that starts in childhood.

    11. AP

      So interesting. For me, it's certainly like a self-preservation thing.

    12. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AP

      When you realize how painful criticism and rejection is, you, you'll make the first move to reject someone else before they can reject you in relationships, for example.

    14. DW

      Yeah.

    15. AP

      Or you'll... In social situations, you'll, it'll turn you into a massive people pleaser.

    16. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AP

      You'll be f- really scared of confrontation because the pain of any pushback or any retaliation is essentially a reminder of being disapproved-

    18. DW

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... um, and putting everyone else's needs before your own. Um, when I got my diagnosis two years ago, I think, you know, I look back and I, I can see it so clearly. Um, and the shame actually lifted when I was able to look back throughout my past and add, add color and context-

    20. DW

      Mm

    21. AP

      ... to, to 34 years of, of people pleasing and, and rejection avoidance.

  9. 25:16 – 27:00

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

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    2. DW

      I, I think you've just explained

  10. 27:00 – 29:36

    The emotional benefits of a diagnosis

    1. DW

      it exceptionally eloquently. So it can provide a meaning. It can provide a, an understanding as to why things have been difficult or things have been hard or why you have certain character traits. Um, th- you just-- When you were talking, you reminded me of a, an example w- with a family recently. We were talking about sharing.

    2. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DW

      Um, and sharing is something that is very commonly misunderstood from a parenting point of view. So let's say there's two kids playing, uh, I don't know, in a soft play and, um, just happily getting on with their own thing, and one child has this super cool funky toy and the other child wants it. What often we see is the parent of the child with the toy says, "Oh, you know, share with Jimmy," or whatever it is. Um, now, that isn't sharing. That's giving your things away to someone else because someone else wants it. That's not a healthy message to be teaching to children. Now, we all do it. That's the natural thing.

    4. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DW

      We all want to generally help out and make sure no children feel upset, but that's not a good message that we're giving to our children, and that's essentially teaching you people pleasing. Like, you just want other people to be happy, so give them things and they'll be happy. But whilst it teaches the child with the toy to be a people pleaser, it also teaches the child who gets the things to expect from other people, so they become expecting things. This is not a healthy dynamic. What we need to be teaching is, um, when you finish with your toy, then you can share it with Jimmy. Um, and that's a harder message to, to deal with, but psychologically the right one. Now, why on earth am I mentioning sharing? Because it doesn't necessarily have to be part of ADHD. It can be part of what we experience when we're younger. Um, now, the ADHD factors make that situation more difficult. Most certainly they do. But that's... Th- this is why taking a step back and trying to understand those behaviors from a psychological point of view-

    6. AP

      Mm-hmm

    7. DW

      ... can be exceptionally powerful. Because if you've experienced that as a child, y- the messages that you're being taught about the world are then very different already. That's before we're even thinking from an ADHD side of things. It's important to consider that element of it.

    8. AP

      One of the biggest injustices, Dan, in this whole ADHD conversation is how let down women and girls have been-

    9. DW

      Mm

    10. AP

      ... um, in, in the whole landscape, and 85% of listeners and viewers of this podcast are women. Um, a whole generation of women were missed and are almost playing catch up now in their understanding of self.

  11. 29:36 – 34:07

    Why ADHD women and girls were missed for so long

    1. AP

      But why do you think so many women and girls were missed for so long?

    2. DW

      I'm, I'm delighted that you've mentioned this. This is a... It's sort of seen an explosion of interest recently because... and there is a really clear pattern of that being absolutely the case. Women and girls have been missed. Uh, there's a lot of ongoing research into it to try to answer it, but I, I, I wonder if there are three general explanations for it. The first one is, is a, um, the expression of ADHD and what that looks like, and we know there is a difference between boys and girls for that. The second is the, um, historical... perspective of, of what's happened. Um, that's the, um, y- looking back over time and how, how we've done research into ADHD. And then the third is, is that societal expectations-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DW

      ... what we expect from boys and girls. And I think there is a mixture of, of all of these. But if we take the first one, for example, the expression, that, that goes back to what we were talking about with our iceberg.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. DW

      So how you, what you see above the surface, that generally, again, not always, but generally is different for boys and girls. Boys traditionally... Tradition is not the right word. Typically might express things through their behavior, so you see lots of the outwardly expression, fidgeting, movement, shouting out, moving around, that sort of thing. So it's very externalized, whereas girls tend to have the opposite effect, where it's internalized, which is things like disorganization, um, finding it hard to concentrate, and that's very inward. Now, as a result, what tends to happen, teachers or parents see children, um, showing that, see that above-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. DW

      ... the, the surface of, of the waterline again. And so it's, they're much quicker to concentrate on the boys with the challenges, not necessarily the girls. So, so it's easy for girls to be missed with that. Then you've got the societal expectations of it, and from a societal point of view, j- we, we are changing. We, we absolutely are, so I'm talking very generally here. But soci- from a societal point of view, there are very different expressions of how boys and girls perform and what general roles might necessarily be. And I think we have lived in a society where girls are expected to sit and concentrate and do something with sitting and quietly, and whereas boys are more outgoing. Again, I'm talking very generally-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. DW

      ... and that is, that is absolutely changing, but the expectation of what we see is, is absolutely part of it. And finally, you've got the historical side, and historically, assess- understanding ADHD has been done on loud, busy boys. [laughs] That's who the research group is.

    11. AP

      Yeah.

    12. DW

      And so that's what we've come to expect-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. DW

      ... of ADHD. And if you combine all three, you are in a position of thinking, "That's what I expect. That's what ADHD looks like," the child who moves around and jumps and shouts and can't sit still, and that is, that, that's not necessarily the presentation of girls.

    15. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DW

      So I think-

    17. AP

      Yeah

    18. DW

      ... combining them is why girls can be missed.

    19. AP

      Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's heartbreaking, isn't it? I, I think, uh, uh, again, like you said, these things aren't exclusive to women, but it-

    20. DW

      Mm

    21. AP

      ... certainly seems to be a h- a higher concentration with- within late diagnosed women, some of these, some of these lived experiences, that internalized hyperactivity, which you-

    22. DW

      Mm

    23. AP

      ... amazingly just described, and how those internalized highly caffeinated squirrels-

    24. DW

      [laughs]

    25. AP

      ... that, that, that don't stop sometimes. You know, some days, those can get so manic, and each squirrel pulling the person in a different direction, each one with a different idea, and-

    26. DW

      Yeah

    27. AP

      ... the overwhelm that that can create sometimes. And when you are physically paralyzed in a state of overwhelm, and in that moment you can't do anything other than lie on the sofa and scroll social media because that's the only thing that's distracting you from that horrendous inner critic-

    28. DW

      Mm

    29. AP

      ... telling yourself that you're useless. And i- it's heartbreaking because if someone is that person, the optics of that lying on the sofa unable to move exposes them to even further criticisms from colleagues, partners, friends. Why are you so lazy? Why can't you just start-

    30. DW

      Mm

  12. 34:07 – 38:03

    Common emotions amongst late diagnosis ADHD women

    1. AP

      With, with late diagnosed women, do you see a, a common thread of emotion when women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and onwards finally get a diagnosis?

    2. DW

      So, uh, r- remember, I predominantly work with children, but if we think about that genetic component, children with ADHD are very likely to have parents who have a neurodivergence of some sort. And we meet many children who are going through the assessment for ADHD, and their parents have said that either they have been diagnosed as ADHD as a child or have recently found out that they are ADHD themselves or are going through their own-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. DW

      ... assessment. And when we talk about that, which isn't, uh, necessarily a big part of our assessment process, but if we have the opportunity to talk about it, the overwhelming emotion is relief. Relief and an explanation and a sense of, "Finally, I have an explanation for why it was so difficult, because I was always told that I should be better, and I wanted to be better, and I tried to be better but couldn't." And that's where our language comes from, which is the language of can't, not the language of won't. So we, we absolutely focus on things that you want to do but struggle to do it, rather than a defiance, like-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. DW

      ... a behavioral, purposeful problem. Um, and that shift. And finally, parents are feeling relief, and we see it absolutely in moms. Absolutely. That is, that is crystal clear to me.

    7. AP

      Mm. Do you see a, a... When a child gets diagnosed, do you of- do you see, like, a narrative or a, or a story arc that starts with the parents maybe thinking, "There's nothing wrong with my child because I'm, I do that too."

    8. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AP

      And then the child gets diagnosed-

    10. DW

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... and then it sort of sets off that, that, that domino effect, and the parents realize, "Oh, maybe I also have ADHD."

    12. DW

      Yeah. So it works the other way around as well.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. DW

      So parents who have been told to go for an ADHD assessment for some reason, um, and they go through the process maybe a bit skeptical, not really sure if this is the right thing, and then as we start talking, you see this almost light bulb moment of parents going-I, I do that

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. DW

      Oh my gosh, that, we're describing me, and this is what... A- and again, not always, but that pattern is there, and then it often finds that parents want to go and do their own assessments as well. O- one of the, one of the interesting parts of, of doing ADHD assessments is just to start the process, we have to battle through a narrative that's there, a societal narrative. So ADHD is still massively misunderstood.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. DW

      It is still, I believe, seen as a parenting problem. Um, so because the majority of people who don't have ADHD see children who do have ADHD and say they need a good slap around the face. I- I mean, we don't say that anymore.

    19. AP

      [laughs]

    20. DW

      That might be what we're thinking. I remember going to a restaurant once, and-

    21. AP

      [laughs]

    22. DW

      ... this is before I had kids, and I'm sat there, um, watching, and there's a family with kids with iPads, and I'm sat there going, [scoffs] "There is no way that when my children will be at a restaurant-

    23. AP

      [laughs]

    24. DW

      ... we will ever have iPads." Now, iPads. Sit on your iPad and don't talk. [laughs]

    25. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    26. DW

      Stay there. But, like, uh, what we expect of children is that of good behavior-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. DW

      ... and compliance. Uh, and when children don't do that, it is often because w- we often are quick to assume that it's because they are not being brought up appropriately, it's a parenting problem, and that's not fair. That's not fair. There... I, I would argue from experience that every parent is really trying.

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. DW

      Yet there are parents out there who are trying the things that they've been told to try, and it's not working, and that's when it becomes a problem. Like, w- "I'm doing everything we should be doing, but I'm still finding there are difficulties." And that's when assessments can come from, and that's when there-

  13. 38:03 – 44:34

    The truth about ADHD, technology and social media

    1. AP

      Speaking of, uh, iPads and, and mobile phones, and generally tech in general-

    2. DW

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... 'cause wh- when I speak in schools, I often speak to parents, and I, uh, get asked, "What's the ideal age for, for, for my child to have an, a, a mobile phone?"

    4. DW

      Mm.

    5. AP

      Uh, and I don't know the answer. D- but do... what do you think a mobile phone, technology, social media, technology, gadgets in hand, what, what effect can that have on a developing ADHD mind?

    6. DW

      A, a very significant effect. Uh, and this is where googling things can be very dangerous. Because if you google, "What's the appropriate age for a child to have a screen?" You'll get all sorts of things. Like, the- there's all psychological services and, uh, the American Psychological Association is really significant with this. They've got lots of guidance that say no child should have a screen before the age of two. Um, and if you sort of follow that all the way through life, um, you'll see guidance and steps and steps and steps. These are... And when, when your life doesn't fit into that, you can't help but think, "I'm the problem."

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. DW

      Um, "I'm trying, but the guidance says do this. It doesn't work. I need to have a screen," or, "I need a bit of a different approach." But the professional guidance says, "You're doing it wrong." And that's a great way to feel like you're making a terrible m- hash of parenting. Whereas actually, you're trying exceptionally hard to do what is right, and sometimes, particularly neuro- neurodivergent children, a screen is actually the one thing that helps regulate them, and, and they, they need it. And if we think of a, of an, an autistic brain or, and an ADHD brain, the real world is difficult to navigate.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. DW

      Really difficult to navigate. And in the online space, you get rid of all of that. You can be who you want to be without all of the social pressures, without the societal expectations, doing the things that you want to do. So that pressure is immediately released.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. DW

      And then on top of it, let's think about what, what happens when you're, when you're on a computer. You- you've probably met many children who can do stuff on a computer or an iPad or something that we couldn't have even dreamed of. Like, how on earth do you know what to do with this? Children are really competent with technology. So now, if we think of a, um, a child with autism and/or ADHD, you've got an online world that makes sense, and there is a competence to it. So that is going to be the world that they want to engage with, yet screens and technology are the one area that we as parents crack down on the most.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. DW

      "Get off your screen. You've been on it for hours. Get outside." You know, and all that side of it. That's, that can be really conflicting-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. DW

      ... and really difficult. So I, I'm not a psychologist who opts for banning things, um, because I don't think it's helpful. But I, I, I do things with guidance and being careful.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. DW

      So when it comes to screens, if we are allowing children to access technology, do it safely and gently with boundaries is much of a healthier way to develop a positive relationship with technology.

    19. AP

      Mm. I feel like social media is such a, a, a valuable tool on one hand, because w- whatever your special interest is, whatever your obsession, whatever your hobby is, like, there's free education and access-

    20. DW

      Mm

    21. AP

      ... to information on that thing, and you can just lose hours, days, and, and, and, and you c- you're able to become incredibly good at that thing because there's this source of it f- of education available to you. But on the other hand, I feel like social media is so toxic to everybody because of comparison. Um, we're able to see so many other people and compare our lives to their life, and I imagine that's heightened the consequences of comparison in a, in a child that already feels different-

    22. DW

      Mm

    23. AP

      ... and without social media, probably wouldn't have optics into so many other fields of, of, of p- people's lives, therefore perpetuating that feeling of being different. Do you think there is a link between mobile phones, social media, ADHD, neurodivergence, and feeling depressed?

    24. DW

      Yes.

    25. AP

      [laughs]

    26. DW

      I, I am very confident that there is a link that is there. Um, now that's not to say if you use a phone, you will become depressed.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. DW

      I'm not saying that. But the chances of struggling increase when you use technology, particularly social media, more. There was a recent study that was done. So there was, there was a whole argument that social media is bad for you. It's terrible, it's terrible, don't go on, it's bad for your mental health.And a recent meta-analysis, which is essentially an analysis of all the research, so it's in, it's seen from a-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. DW

      ... psychological literature point of view, the highest standard of research. Because you are essentially looking at all the research and summarizing that. And a massive meta-analysis found that social media does not cause depression and anxiety, but what it does do is it stops you from then going outside and doing the other things that we know are beneficial for your wellbeing. So if you are using technology more, you might find that helpful or, or regulating or whatever it might be, but you are not then doing the things that we know are super helpful for you.

  14. 44:34 – 47:13

    Can mobile phone use change someone’s default level of dopamine

    1. DW

      with that.

    2. AP

      Can that addiction to mobile phones, social media, can that change someone's default level of dopamine, and therefore, if they get that social media, that mobile phone taken away from them, can, like you've alluded to, can, can we see increased levels of irritability?

    3. DW

      Absolutely we can. So, so dopamine is a massive part of this. Dopamine is that chemical that makes you feel good, and we know you get that from doing things really well.

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. DW

      When you've achieved something, you've won something, you've done a super star job, you are boosted with dopamine, and the nice thing about it is it lasts. So that feeling lasts for a long time. When you're struggling with things and you are lacking dopamine, your body craves dopamine. You want more of it. And what is the cheapest, fastest, quickest way to get dopamine? Well, it's junk food, being one. Um, biscuits, crisps, chocolates. Um, screens and technology. And if we sort of f- see what older teenagers do, that's more risk-taking behaviors and doing things that give them that thrill and that buzz.

    6. AP

      Mm.

    7. DW

      That is simply them wanting to seek out that dopamine. The difference here is that dopamine hasn't been earned, and if it's not earned, it disappears almost immediately. And look, I'm gonna talk from a very personal point of view here. I can sit with a bag of Maltesers and finish it, and it was delicious, and I'm full of dopamine, and within seconds it is gone. So what do I want? More Maltesers.

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. DW

      When? Now. [laughs]

    10. AP

      [laughs]

    11. DW

      Uh, and that's, that, that seeking out more all the time is exactly what we see.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. DW

      So if we use that for children with screens, that's exactly what's happening. It's giving them that boost. But if we frame this in terms of addiction, there is a tolerance in addiction. The more you use a certain substance, the more you become used to it.

    14. AP

      Mm.

    15. DW

      So you have to use more of it to get the same feeling, and that's exactly what we see with screens. You know, an initial scroll on something, um, might make you feel great, but the next time you do it, you need that bit more.

    16. AP

      Mm.

    17. DW

      And then you need that bit more, and you can see it's becoming increasingly challenging.

    18. AP

      We had a guest who said similar, um, a neuroscientist called TJ Power, and he explained, similar to what you just said, the difference between effort-based dopamine and non-effort-based dopamine and, and the importance of, if you can, starting your day with effort-based dopamine. Like, it's so easy to wake up and grab your mobile phone and get that non-effort-based dopamine from just putting zero effort into getting that funny video of that cat.

    19. DW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. AP

      Um, but effort-based dopamine comes from a small task, like making the bed-

    21. DW

      Yeah

    22. AP

      ... or, or brushing your teeth. You know, it's just set your much higher quality, longer lasting dopamine. How

  15. 47:13 – 50:50

    How young can someone become addicted to something

    1. AP

      young could someone be when they first become addicted to something, do you think?

    2. DW

      Ooh, great question. Um, I'd say from a very young age. A very young age, especially if it gives them a reward from it. Um, I wouldn't necessarily use the word addiction, uh, but I would say it gives them a sense of achievement. So w- we know that one of the most effective ways of parenting is something called positive reinforcement. You know, when something good happens, you comment on it, you praise it, and you are essentially, as a parent, saying, "I approve of this." And that is really effective. Um, it's massively more effective than the opposite, which is sometimes saying, is commenting on how terrible a behavior is. Uh, so if we don't like a child doing something, we are, "Stop doing this. Why are you doing that?"

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. DW

      But what you're actually doing is you're giving positive reinforcement with your attention. So you are giving your attention to the wrong behaviors. So if we can give loads of attention to something, that's a brilliant step to take. However, you have to do that carefully, because if you constantly praise and constantly give and constantly provide more-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. DW

      ... your children are then gonna expect more and expect that. And you could argue that that's an addiction. "I'm addicted to praise." Uh, and need it, and then they get to school and suddenly not praised and find that exceptionally overwhelming, whereas actually they've just been brought up in a very praise-full-... household. So they just need ch- still praise, absolutely praise, but gently

    7. AP

      Truly fascinating, Dan. Um, this has been so insightful. I just, before I get onto the ADHD agony aunt section, which is often my favorite part of the show-

    8. DW

      Yeah

    9. AP

      ... um, just one final question to finish, and that's when you finish a day as a psychologist assessing people for ADHD, and say you've had a very intense day assessing many people, what optimistic feeling about the community, about being ADHD, do you end your day with?

    10. DW

      What a lovely question. Um, it's lovely because psychologists are, uh, by their very nature, are supposed to be dealing with things that are difficult. Um, but I love the framing of it and that it's positive. So yes, I, I run CAYP Psychology and, and CAYP Psychology offers assessments for ADHD for children, um, a- and young people. And often as part of that assessment, we are thinking about things that are difficult. You know, what do you struggle with from family and friends and school and learning and, um, and relationships? And it's very easy to find that very overwhelming. But what our job is as psychologists is to be able to provide that understanding to then be able to help children and young people. And so if we can come to that understanding with a diagnosis or not, you know-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. DW

      ... our aim is to say, "You find this difficult. We want to provide an explanation why," but then provide the necessary support and recommendations to help with that. That can be extremely powerful for families, and we, we hear it. Many families come back to us and say, "Thank you so much. You know, you're the first people to finally see what we've been saying for years." Um, we- our aim is to take a non-judgmental approach. You know, that's, that's not our job. But our job is to understand the difficulties that you are, you or your family are facing so that we can provide that support.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. DW

      I find that exceptionally rewarding, which is why we do this job.

    15. AP

      Mm. Fascinating, Dan. Um, and thank you so much for the, for the incredible work that you do do.

  16. 50:50 – 53:03

    Dan’s ADHD item

    1. DW

      Thank you.

    2. AP

      I wanna move the attention to your ADHD item-

    3. DW

      Yes

    4. AP

      ... uh, which for the eagle-eyed ADHD Chatter viewers will think that what's in front of me is the regular table, [laughs] but it's not. Um, I'm gonna reveal your ADHD item, Dan, which is underneath this cloth.

    5. DW

      Okay. Oh. [laughs]

    6. AP

      It's a trampoline.

    7. DW

      It is.

    8. AP

      Now, why does a trampoline represent ADHD?

    9. DW

      Oh my gosh, I can't believe you brought this here. That's amazing.

    10. AP

      Right. [laughs]

    11. DW

      Um, so, uh, yeah, on, on, on the note of a trampoline, when I, when I first had children, um, I was given some advice by someone, and the advice was, "Buy the biggest trampoline that you've got the space for and that you can afford." And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Like, and, "Trust me. You... This is what you want to be doing." So we did. So we've got a mega trampoline in our garden. Um, it fills the whole garden, you know, the... But that was-

    12. AP

      [laughs]

    13. DW

      ... the space they wanted to use. Um, and it has been the most amazing thing for us to have in our house because our kids are on it all the time. So from a physical point of view-

    14. AP

      Mm

    15. DW

      ... it keeps them busy.

    16. AP

      Sure.

    17. DW

      Absolutely does. And that is, that is the first thing that I've been thinking about when it comes to ADHD and that activity levels and, and doing something. But what I also really like about trampoline is the, the nature of, of movement, the ups and downs of it. Oh, see what I've done there. The up-

    18. AP

      [laughs]

    19. DW

      ... and the downs. Um, but also, also the fact that it can be enjoyed by so many people.

    20. AP

      Mm.

    21. DW

      And when it comes to ADHD, we are very quick to say it's a problem, whereas actually it can actually be almost a superpower in a way. You can do things and see things that many other people can't do. Um, and ch- many people can access a trampoline. So my link there was it represents this idea that everyone can access something, but it's exceptionally useful for someone who needs that space-

    22. AP

      Mm

    23. DW

      ... to be able to, um, to, to let out their energy.

    24. AP

      Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating, Dan, um, and a brilliant analogy, and I'm very excited to see you have a jump [laughs] at the end of the episode-

    25. DW

      No, if only I had a bigger one-

    26. AP

      ... maybe [laughs]

    27. DW

      ... you'd see forward rolls and flips and twizzles, but-

    28. AP

      Yeah

    29. DW

      ... yeah, not, not today.

    30. AP

      Really fascinating. Thank you very much,

  17. 53:03 – 55:03

    The ADHD agony aunt

    1. AP

      Dan.

    2. DW

      [laughs]

    3. AP

      Um, I wanna do the ADHD agony aunt section.

    4. DW

      Sure.

    5. AP

      Which is finally, the ADHD agony aunt is a washing machine because my item is a washing machine because I always leave my laundry in the machine, and I ask all my guests, "Do you leave your laundry in the machine?"

    6. DW

      Excellent.

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. DW

      Um, I, um, uh, I try not to, but inevitably it does happen 'cause life ends up taking over, doesn't it?

    9. AP

      It does, yeah.

    10. DW

      [laughs]

    11. AP

      And I have been using the Tiimo app, which is the sponsor of the show, and since then I've been getting a lot better. This week, Dan, in the Washing Machine of Woes, someone has written in and asked, "I have ADHD, and I'm 45 years old. My childhood was troubled with dysfunctional parents. Do you think I need to heal my inner child or forget the past and just work on me as I am now and how to improve myself rather than finding someone to blame?"

    12. DW

      Gosh. That's, that's, that's a loaded-

    13. AP

      That's a big one

    14. DW

      ... question, isn't it? Um, but, but look at that. I think that is, that is an amazing summary of everything that we've spent some time-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. DW

      ... thinking about today, thinking about how things are currently, but also looking back as to where those difficulties have come from. So if we use the iceberg analogy again, what we see on the surface is how that, that lady is managing in everyday life. But our job as psychologists is to see underneath, and if we can help her take those steps back and look through it gently and carefully, maybe it can bring about an understanding, bring about some support, bring about a way that she can then hopefully better interact with herself and also her family if she's got one or the world around her.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. DW

      Working on, on yourself as you are now can work to an extent. Um, and sometimes that's all we need. That is all we need to do. But sometimes it's helpful to take that step back and look back and to help overcome some of the challenges-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. DW

      ... that we may have had or, or experienced to help better understand h- and, and develop of, a, a future bright way forward.

    21. AP

      Mm. Wow. Amazing, Dan. Just like everything else in the episode, incredibly insightful. So thank you very much on behalf of the, uh, the, the, the Washing Machine of Woes-

    22. DW

      [laughs]

    23. AP

      ... submission. Um,

  18. 55:03 – 56:42

    A letter from the previous guest

    1. AP

      just finally, Dan, I wanna s- deliver a letter that was written by the previous guest-

    2. DW

      Right

    3. AP

      ... where they wrote their three rules to live by. I'll pass this to you, and if you could kindly open it and read-

    4. DW

      Of course

    5. AP

      ... the previous guest's-

    6. DW

      To the next guest

    7. AP

      ... three rules to live by.

    8. DW

      Oh, gosh. Wow. Number one, value evidence-based research as much as lived experience. Um, the second one is, if you see or hear something quoted as fact, check it against known evidence or research. Um, and then the third one is, remember, you are not ADHD. You are you, and ADHD is part of you.

    9. AP

      Yes. Very true. Very insightful. Three great rules.

    10. DW

      I, I would absolutely agree-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. DW

      ... with all three of those. The, the, a psychologist by nature is based on critical thinking-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. DW

      ... and critical thinking comes from the evidence as well as people's lived experience.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. DW

      And that's not to undermine someone's individual circumstances, but it's to look at that big evidence base around it, and that's, that's our job.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. DW

      And, and sometimes that means, uh, s- someone's individual experience clashes with that. That doesn't mean someone's wrong or, or, or disordered or anything like that. It just means that they might have a bit of a different path, and that's okay. Uh, and our job is to try to, to support it, and I particularly like the last one. You are not ADHD. ADHD is a part of you. Um, it shouldn't define you. Um, it, it is, it is... You are a child who has or an adult who has ADHD, but you are not ADHD. Uh, I think that's really important.

    19. AP

      Absolutely. Dan, thank you so much on behalf of every child who has ever felt different. Thank you very much.

    20. DW

      Thank you for having me. [outro music]

Episode duration: 56:43

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