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The Tragic Impact Of Undiagnosed ADHD & How To Reverse It | Dr. Jacob Ambrose

Dr Jacob Ambrose is an ADHD expert and clinical psychologist with a vast knowledge of ADHD. With years of experience specialising in ADHD, Dr Jay understands the complex struggles of ADHD and he’s here to help you understand yourself. 00:00 Trailer 02:27 How ADHD affects self esteem 04:40 Jacob’s mission 08:19 The emotional consequences of overwhelm 12:17 The shame of ADHD 15:04 How women internalise shame 17:10 Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 25:08 Tiimo advert 26:43 Does an ADHD diagnosis help 28:48 How ADHD people attach to others 30:35 Unmasking in romantic relationships 32:38 RSD in relationships 36:14 Obsessing over someone (Limerence) 41:47 Differences between female and male ADHD 43:13 Signs of an anxious attachment style 49:09 Common ADHD stereotypes 51:22 Jacob’s ADHD item 53:56 Audience questions 59:29 A letter to my younger self Find Dr Jay on Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/dr.jacob.ambrose/?hl=en Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer Editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Jacob AmbroseguestAlex Partridgehost
Oct 28, 20251h 0mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:27

    Trailer

    1. JA

      Women with ADHD are the most stressed human beings. With ADHD as a woman, you're physiologically wired to take up space. You can be larger than life, big emotions, and yet you live in a society that tells you to be small and to take up less space. So in order to fit into this world, you really have to go against your true neural chemistry, even so much to the point that a lot of women with ADHD can look like they even have OCD because they're so refined in their behavior. As a woman with ADHD, you're so curious, and yet you have to sometimes dumb yourself down to fit around the ego of society. Dr. Jacob Ambrose is an ADHD expert and clinical psychologist with a vast knowledge of ADHD. With years of experience specializing in ADHD Dr. J understands the complex struggles of ADHD And he's here to help you understand yourself. A lot of people with ADHD have a high level of energy that's been told, "Stop. Don't keep going. This is not okay." When you're an adult and you're trying to navigate interactions, if you've had a higher frequency of interactions that told you to stop, your body is physiologically gonna tell you to stop, no matter how much your logical brain tells you to go.

    2. AP

      People with ADHD tend to have low self-esteem. Why do you think that is?

    3. JA

      I think the reason that a lot of people with ADHD experience so much shame is because-

    4. AP

      Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in, and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Jacob?

    5. JA

      Yes.

    6. AP

      Thank you so much for joining us.

    7. JA

      It's good to be here. Thanks for inviting me. [laughs]

    8. AP

      It's, it's always surreal when you see someone's content on social media and you meet them in real life. So it's a huge honor for you to have made the trip here today. Thank you very much.

    9. JA

      Of course, and same to you. I mean, I've been watching your videos and clips, and whenever I first saw you as I was lost looking for the studio, it was-

    10. AP

      [laughs]

    11. JA

      ... great to see you, uh, for that reason, to find it, but also just, like, wow, I feel like I know so much about you, looking at your book, looking at your content, and then meeting you again for the first time in human, which is interesting. [laughs]

    12. AP

      I'm excited to, to, to get to know you, uh, Jacob. Um, an interesting question to start with and perhaps also a bit of a heartbreaking one, but

  2. 2:27 – 4:40

    How ADHD affects self esteem

    1. AP

      people with ADHD tend to have low self-esteem. Why do you think that is?

    2. JA

      I, I love that question 'cause I think it brings light to a lot of the heart of the issue with ADHD. I think the reason that a lot of people with ADHD experience so much shame is because you are judged from childhood for the very wiring that is you. In childhood, um, I mean, whenever I bring people to understand the shame, I, I have them think about what it would be like to wear a blindfold as they're navigating a obstacle course of life, and your peers don't have blindfolds on. You get much more intense and much more frequent negative feedback from your environment. So, so with that being said, over time, a lot of people internalize the message that it's not necessarily my behavior that's the problem, it's something in here. It's the system that's generating these problems, and that is the definition of shame. It's something is wrong with me to my core, and I think a lot of people with ADHD experience that because their very wiring is criticized by a society that makes them fit into this, this box. And then as a child that's just six or seven trying to digest all this walks away with, "Wow, uh, something's wrong with me," you know? So shame is... I, I think that's part of the reason why a lot of people with shame, with ADHD experience so much shame.

    3. AP

      Do you think [clears throat] as a consequence of those, that early exposure to criticism, do you think people solve that problem, neurodivergent kids solve that problem by changing who they are?

    4. JA

      Oh, yeah, 100%. [laughs] I, I think also this speaks to the, um, traditional hyperactive piece with, uh, ADHD, right? Where you, you start off with seeing so much more hyperac- activity in youth, and then as people get older, you see that they become these, um, real- really good people at masking their ADHD. And so I, I see as a consequence, people can put themselves in the box of logic or, um, really, really refine their behaviors to try to fit into the box of society, and you might not even know someone has ADHD and, and, and yet they're experiencing so much cortisol and stress masking their body.

    5. AP

      When I see someone like yourself, Jacob, talking so passionately about ADHD, I always wonder what their driving force is, what's, what's getting them out

  3. 4:40 – 8:19

    Jacob’s mission

    1. AP

      of bed in the morning. So what is your mission within the ADHD space?

    2. JA

      Yeah. I really, I really like that question. I mean, there's been many times where I've seen someone with ADHD experience what looks like this attack of the self. Um, they do something wrong, and then they have this, almost this systemic meltdown of like, "What is wrong with me?" And they start to say, "I'm so stupid. What's wrong with me?" And that also used to be me. You know? Uh, as somebody that studied psychology, went into the field, was really excited to learn, there was a lot of hiccups in the early part of my career, and I almost decided not to do it. Uh, if anybody asked me back when I was in the early stages of my education what I wanted to do, um, I would tell them research and possibly teaching. And they'd say, "Well, no clinical work?" I'm like, "Of course not." [laughs] And now it's literally my identity because I was, because of the one factor that shifted later in the middle of my career, which was, oh, wait a minute, I have ADHD. And once I found that out, I realized I had this extremely passionate, curious side of myself that wanted to understand the deepest parts of psychology that had not really blossomed because I had thought that I would, um, take up space in a bad way. And now that I've worked towards confidence for myself, I, I see a lot of people that wanna shut down, have this, have this attack of the self occur, and I, I wanna step in and give them that same ability to see past it so they can reach that potential that's already existing.

    3. AP

      You said something really heartbreaking there, Jacob. You said, "What's wrong with me?" And I think that's such an echo of how so many people with ADHD think about themselves, and many of us are lucky to figure out what is the issue. We get an, an understanding of ADHD is in the picture. But what do you think is the consequence of someone who truly believes that about themselves, a- is asking themselves that question, "What is wrong with me?", but never gets that understanding piece, never finds out that they have ADHD?

    4. JA

      Yeah. Uh, it, it changes everything. I mean, if you don't know that you have this different kind of neurochemistry and your environment is telling you that something's wrong with you, and then you start to adopt that same message, in a sense you almost unconsciously align with the perpetrator that is putting you in this box. So you see, um, one of the issues with ADHD is extreme difficulties with motivation sometimes. You see a lot of people struggle with what's called executive dysfunction, and so that's when you're looking at a task and you see a mountain of things in front of you that you're like, "I'm not sure if I can accomplish the under-stimulating aspects of this journey." Um, and that, that, that comes with it, but what's even worse is when you start to imagine the, uh, the issues that exist inside of yourself, right? And one of the biggest things that happen when somebody doesn't really know what's going on with their own internal, you know, neurochemistry, is that they will, they will judge themselves so harshly that they never reach their full potential. Like, you, like, people with ADHD are supposed to be the most motivated people in the world. [laughs] You have so much energy. So if you imagine a young child that is working on something, they're sc- they're running, they're jumping, they're, they're curious. That, that used to be you with ADHD. So, so how do you take that child and then look at someone who's 30 years old and has a hard time getting out of bed? That stark difference is the difference between someone who knows, um, about their ADHD versus someone who doesn't.

    5. AP

      And is it overwhelm that stops people from being able to get over that start line? That, that internalized hyperactivity, all of those racing thoughts, and that can look like laziness, which is really sad, but we know it's not. It's

  4. 8:19 – 12:17

    The emotional consequences of overwhelm

    1. AP

      overwhelm. What, what are the consequences of somebody who is experiencing overwhelm to the point where some days all they can do is scroll social media because that's the one thing that's distracting that horrible internal monologue which is telling themselves that they're useless or lazy? What are the sort of long-term consequences of, of having that internal monolog- monologue, or even the optics of appearing to be physically paralyzed to those around you?

    2. JA

      Yeah. I think in that case, the worst parts of ADHD get much worse. And I, I ask people this question a lot, but what do you think the world would look like if ADHD was perfectly validated? Um, well, I think that, um, issues with attention would start to be more covered with curiosity. [laughs] I think that hyperactivity and impulsivity would look more like passion. So I think when, when you look at that question of like, well, what's the impact of being constantly overwhelmed, well, I think just like for any human being, if you're overwhelmed, it's harder to think. It's harder to not be impulsive. [laughs] It's harder to not yell at your spouse, right?

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JA

      So you take the already existing difficulties with working memory with ADHD and you take the already existing impulsivity and you magnify that. I would bet that our definition and stereotype of ADHD is not actually ADHD, but the overwhelmed person with ADHD, and I think it speaks to even the definition in the DSM, right, of, you mention this in the book, right, the, um, attention deficit. Uh, even in the language, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, you're, you're coming at it from the point of deficit. So I, I think that's part of what we're seeing.

    5. AP

      And the, the type of person with ADHD who perhaps doesn't struggle to start the task, because I, I, like you said, I don't think ADHD is so much a deficit of attention. I think when someone with ADHD finds something that they're truly passionate about, that's when they can have an abundance of attention. That's when you see that person with ADHD doing incredible things. Um, but often it's like the external critique, the feedback from their peers, their partner, their, their, their boss perhaps, that is judging them because the, the way they do things might be outside the stereotypical, quote-unquote, "normal way of doing it". So they suppress that good way of doing it, and they try to be someone that they're not, which is exhausting.

    6. JA

      Yeah, so-

    7. AP

      Do you think as a consequence of that internal struggle to, to, to fit in, they're at a heightened risk of a cycle of burnout?

    8. JA

      Oh, 100%, yeah. Burnout, fatigue. There's, like, if you really think about it, all the way back from childhood, you're suppressing a very passionate, powerful part of yourself. You're going from that childhood version of yourself that was running around, playful, physiologically reactive to the world around you, larger than life, to this person in this corporate box that's trying to fit the boxes of society. So as you're trying to fit into those boxes, you, you s- there's a part of you that's very dormant, that, that it's almost like the energy of this, um, this beast inside of you that, that you had to suppress since childhood. So I think burnout is, by definition, the process of having to tell yourself no repeatedly. Um, to tell yourself no, that you can't enjoy yourself, when work was always supposed to me- meant to be somewhat enjoyable, [laughs] right? So it's, it's, it's really tough to see a lot of people with ADHD experience so much burnout-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JA

      ... but it's so active and present because you're constantly having to tell yourself no to, uh, meet these boxes.

    11. AP

      Those nasty comments we mentioned earlier at the start, in, in our early years, little external comments from other people, like, "Stop fidgeting. Why are you so sensitive? Why are you so lazy?" I think in their isolated form they can appear quite harmless, but when you add them up-Throughout someone's entire childhood, they can cr- compound and create an adult that's very fearful of criticism and rejection, and the shame that can be associated with Rejection Sensitive

  5. 12:17 – 15:04

    The shame of ADHD

    1. AP

      Dysphoria. Do you, with your patients, see people with ADHD having a heightened level of shame?

    2. JA

      Totally, yeah. I, I see a lot of people with ADHD that they've, they've had so many traumatic experiences that build up, just as you say, right? Like, trauma is something that doesn't have to be this one intense experience where something that, that, that happened that everybody was blown away by. It could be the version of you that was at the kitchen table and you said something that you thought was really important, and people non-verbally turned away, and you get the core belief message that, "My thoughts aren't really important or valid here." While it can be said that that one moment isn't very intense, um, m- as a child and all the way through adulthood, it's possible that you spend the majority of your time at the dinner table. It's, it's something that you do 30 minutes a day for your whole life. And so you take that and you add it up, that leaves a lasting mark on the psyche. Um, and that, that's, that's chronic. And so I think with ADHD, you experience this chronic sense of re- th- this chronic experience of rejection over and over again, and that leads to this rejection sensitivity and extreme shame. I would even go on to add that what makes shame far worse is when you don't realize why you're feeling it. If you experience shame and you know why, well, hey, all right, well, I know that I made this mistake, or who knows what. But if you're experiencing shame and you don't realize what's happening inside of your body in terms of your neurochemistry, then you're gonna walk away with, "What, what's wrong with my system? Why can't I have a conversation and feel comfortable like the people around me?" You know, it's, it's tricky and it, and it's so filled with shame.

    3. AP

      That devastating and heartbreaking example you said at the dinner table, a, lots of events like that, can that create an adult that is almost, like, perceiving rejection and criticism or approval being taken away when it's not actually happening?

    4. JA

      Yes, totally. Like, like, one of the things that I'll tell a lot of clients is that you have a very powerful reptile operating inside of you that learns purely based on experience. So if you, throughout life, witness a lot of red lights that tell you to stop, red is gonna slowly start to mean, uh, stop. If you run into a red light that says go, it's gonna be hard to even physically push the gas pedal. [laughs] So, so if you have gotten a lot of experiences in childhood that says stop the moment you exist, you are going to wanna pump the brakes before you talk to someone, and it's simply because we have a reptile inside of us that learns based on experience. And a lot of people with ADHD have a high level of energy that's been told, "Stop. Don't, don't keep going. This is not okay." [laughs] So, so, so of course, when you're an adult and you're trying to navigate interactions,

  6. 15:04 – 17:10

    How women internalise shame

    1. JA

      if you've had a higher frequency of interactions that told you to stop, just like the red light, your body is physiologically gonna tell you to stop no matter how much your logical brain tells you to go.

    2. AP

      Do you think women internalize that feeling of shame more than men?

    3. JA

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, this is something that is just huge, but women with ADHD, I would say, are the most stressed human beings, um, I, I think in, in comparison to other people with ADHD a whole lot. Because with ADHD, um, you are physiologically wired as a, you know, a woman even to... Like, with, with ADHD as a woman, you're physiologically wired to take up space. You, you can be larger than life, big emotions, and yet you live in a society that tells you to be small and to take up less space. So in order to fit into this world, you, you really have to go against your true neurochemistry. And I mean, even so much to the point that a lot of women with ADHD can look like they even have OCD because they're so refined in their behavior. Um, so, so yes, I would say that it, it's, it's extremely shame provoking and you experience so much stress.

    4. AP

      And that high achieving, perhaps, ADHD woman, like, that sounds exhausting, that constant internal extra effort, extra workload that you have to do just in order to achieve the same as perhaps many neurotypical women. Is, is, are there consequences of that internal workload that an ADHD woman might not even be aware of? And can that come out quite explosively sometimes in, in relationships?

    5. JA

      Oh, yeah, totally. [laughs] Like, you're, you're constantly, um, having to walk around the boxes of society that's expecting you to be small. I mean, even at an intellectual level, right? Like, as a woman, you, you, with ADHD, you're so curious. You're, you're playful, you're imaginative, and yet you have to sometimes dumb yourself down to fit around, uh, the ego of society. So, so a lot of these women are having not only to emotionally take on more stress, but take ex- extreme amounts of notes so that they don't accidentally go into a space too impulsively, right, um, and slip into existence.

  7. 17:10 – 25:08

    Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria

    1. AP

      If we just talk about, uh, RSD, which I think is the most challenging aspect of ADHD, out of your patients, how have you had people describe the experience of RSD to you?

    2. JA

      I've had quite a few descriptions. I would say the most common is that this, this ADHD, that they're still coming to know in themselves, feels like this separate entity [laughs] of some sort, something that feels like it's, like, splitting their consciousness in a way, uh, that, that keeps them from accomplishing their goals sometimes. They feel like, "Why do I have this impulsive nature that, that wants to, um, keep me from staying on task? It, it makes me not wanna get out of bed sometimes." And of course, there's a lot of, um, misconceptions and messages from, um, society wrapped up in that, but it, it really feels like something that can just hold them back, at least from their perspective.

    3. AP

      How confusing do you think it can be, Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, for someone who doesn't understand it? Because it, it can be so unpredictable. It can completely derail your day sometimes. It's that you could be having a fantastic day, and then someone says something in, in a s- in a perceived tone of voice and you take it personally, and it can be at that instantSadness or rage. And if you're living your life not understanding why you can have these very sudden changes in mood, what, what are some real-world consequences of exhibiting behavior like that and not understanding why?

    4. JA

      Yeah, I would say one of the greatest consequences that the worst parts of all of that actually get a lot worse. Because with ADHD, you experience gigantic emotions sometimes. Your, your ups are up and your lows are low. You're extremely curious, and you zoom into things so well, you're so curious, that those are some of the best things, right? But when it comes to rejection sensitivity, you do that very same thing when it comes to a negative comment, a non-verbal shift in someone else, um, you explaining something not in what you consider to be the perfect way, right? You, you, you notice it, you're curious about it, you zoom in on it, and then you experience this negative emotional response to it. And then you start to have even more thoughts of, "Why am I so different? Why do some people just hear this and then move on?" And then that thought in and of itself makes the emotion even bigger, and then you can't lo- let go of that, and now you're at home and it's, uh, time to go to bed at 11:00 PM or 12:00 PM, whatever for works for you, and you can't let go of that comment. It, it, it really is hard.

    5. AP

      And that ruminating, that, uh, having this experience over and over again and believing that you're different and almost having that internal critic confirming that every time this trigger happens, can that compound into depression?

    6. JA

      Certainly, yeah. That's a, that's a perfect observation because, yeah, you, you get this message over and over and over again that something's wrong with me. And then you're laying at bed thinking that I did something wrong. You chew on that, and you think that that emotional experience is gonna last. And so of course, as you go out into your day, you're more shy than the next person to build more connections. Um, you're thinking that your literal existence in the space you take up in the world is a bad thing when it's really the most magnetic thing about you. So when you suppress that over and over again throughout your day, um, you, you don't get a whole lot of those experiences that make human beings happy, which, uh, is genuine human connection. You miss out on a lot of that because of rejection sensitivity.

    7. AP

      And I guess the optics of being triggered and almost having a quite noticeable change in your mood, that could, that can expose you to comments like, "Oh, you're so reactive," or, "You're so sensitive," or, "Why are you so emotional?" And that can hurt, particularly when you know deep down that you're not necessarily responding right now to the comment that person has said today. You're probably reacting to the 20,000 comments you've had in your early years, and your nervous system's almost kind of been snapped back to that. W- what's the emotional toll or the extra emotion somebody might be feeling in response to somebody, a partner, a boss, a friend, saying over and over again, "You're too sensitive"?

    8. JA

      I, I would say it's the equivalent to being hurt physically really bad and then being accused for bleeding, you know? You've experienced so much jabs from society, and then you bruise, and then the people that bruise you or the environment that bruise you is now telling you that you're too sensitive on that part of your skin, you know? It's, you've experienced just like you, you laid out perfectly, right? Like the accumulation of all of these experiences, they've left a mark on your body. And so now of course, that part of your body is gonna be sensitive. And so if anybody pokes that part of your body and they say, "Oh wow, look at you, you're so tender right there," well, yeah, I mean, partly it's because of comments like this, you know?

    9. AP

      Do you think having a fear of that event, a fear of being triggered by a criticism, is that gonna make people shrink themselves, make themselves smaller?

    10. JA

      Totally, yeah. You're, you're not gonna wanna bump into walls, right, with a bruised arm. And when you're bruised so much by rejection in society, you're gonna wanna make yourself a lot smaller. And then if you hear a lot of those messages and you're not aware that you have a diagnosis of ADHD, you're not aware that you've been rejected and that partly your shame is coming from this rejection of your neurochemistry, that's gonna lead you to feel completely alienated, othered from other people, and, and people that aren't aware of what's happening a lot of times othered by themselves. So you'll, you'll hide from, um, reality in that way.

    11. AP

      If someone's in the pits of a trigger, right in that epicenter, that horrible feeling of internalized sadness or rage, someone said something, they've just seen an email and it has ended abruptly and, and they've taken it personally and they, they're feeling that huge swirl of shame, how can someone cope in that very specific acute moment of heightened shame, heightened sadness?

    12. JA

      I would say it's, uh, it's, it's a really tough spot to get out of. It's, it's one where the snowball is really big and it's been falling for a long time, so you're kind of catching it at the end. Um, I will say though that some of the best, um, advice that I've... Uh, I mean, I guess I'm tooting my own horn a bit, but [laughing] my, my thought of the best advice that I've given a lot of people with ADHD is, um, riding the wave and increasing your ability to tolerate misunderstandings. Because with ADHD, you've experienced so much misunderstanding since you were a child. You've been totally told that your neurochemistry is something that just does not work here. And when you try to explain yourself, everybody's missed you, right? Because they might not understand the diagnosis. So partly, when you're experiencing those gigantic emotions in the middle of a misunderstanding or someone that's missing you, I would say that you have to realize that it's not, one, your fault, and two, that with ADHD, you will hyperfocus on what the problem was. You'll hyperfocus on that em- that emotion.But tomorrow it might feel a little bit different. And unfortunately, you're made to be the one to have to sacrifice in that relationship until the other person gets it. So I would say ideally, you, you protect yourself and keep yourself safe, and only when you experience those moments, remind yourself that it isn't you that's too incompetent or small in that moment, it's more so your environment.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JA

      And if you choose to move forward with that, then you are choosing to be patient and kind, extremely kind. [laughs] And you can do it with people, especially people, i- if they take it as an investment, that's, that's far better because it maybe can turn into something down the line.

  8. 25:08 – 26:43

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

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  9. 26:43 – 28:48

    Does an ADHD diagnosis help

    1. AP

      Do you think getting a diagnosis of ADHD, getting a professional's stamp of approval, getting that, a diagnosis, do you think that really helps somebody in their journey of self-awareness and self-understanding?

    2. JA

      I think so. I think when you get a diagnosis at, um, one, you've, you've probably been living, I mean, you have been [laughs] living with this your whole life, and a lot of people won't get it. Some people might jump on board though if they see someone with credentials that says, "Here's this stamp that says you have ADHD." Uh, so I'm, I'm all for, um, getting a diagnosis, but I think it also helps clear up some, um, you know, misdiagnoses or misunderstandings because it is important to really figure out do, do I have this and, um, am I relating to a lot of the things that I'm seeing because of something else or... Because there's a whole lot of ways in which, for example, someone might have issues with attention, but it might be because, uh, they need glasses, [laughs] or who knows what, right?

    3. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. JA

      Um, but if you get that accurate diagnosis, I think that's extremely helpful, and also you don't necessarily need it at the same time. Don't allow the lack of a diagnosis or a lack of time to get one to discount your real experiences. So I would say it's, it's nuanced and, uh, yeah, get one to convince some of those neurotypical peers you have. [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs] I feel like sometimes the self esteem challenges that can come with being, having ADHD, you can often doubt your own judgment. So even though you might say to yourself, "I've got ADHD, I don't need a diagnosis," over time you could, you could really begin to doubt that opinion of yourself. So getting that diagnosis from a professional, that, that could be quite good evidence to combat any self-doubt of your own opinion that you have ADHD.

    6. JA

      Yeah. I love that you said that 'cause as you've heard so many messages from the perpetrator that is saying that you don't, you, you don't quite fit in, you don't know what you're talking about, you're, you're, you're constantly being pushed away. So if you're, if you're not, if you can get that, that would be really helpful in leaning into the self-acceptance of like, "Yes, I do know these things," right? That's, that's a really good thing to, to do.

    7. AP

      And taking all of this into account through the lens of ADHD and RSD and feeling different,

  10. 28:48 – 30:35

    How ADHD people attach to others

    1. AP

      do you think people with ADHD attach differently to other people, specifically in a romantic setting?

    2. JA

      Ooh, yeah. I like that question. [laughs] I think you do, 100%. I, I think that with ADHD you are constantly looking for a rule book to figure out how to navigate the world. And, uh, with ADHD, you don't do anything halfway. So, so with relationships and dating, especially in the early phases of courtship, right, you, you can hyperfocus on someone, you can experience that sense of, uh, limerence with another human being. You're thinking about them, hyperfocus just like you would on anything that you're getting a lot of dopamine from. Um, and so when you're latching onto that person, you're, you're not only interested in them, but you're accepting them as an authority in your life in some way. So a lot of people with ADHD experience a lot of difficulties with dating because they're experiencing these big emotions that's larger than life that the other person doesn't quite get. And a lot of people with ADHD, once they go through that process, then they get rejected, you know? They, that self-fulfilling prophecy happens and the person pushes them away, and the ADHD person will attempt to be more, um, inhibited or nonchalant in those interactions.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JA

      And that is even more difficult because with ADHD you wear your emotions on your face. It's so hard for you to do anything halfway, both behavior- behaviorally and also non-verbally. [laughs] So if you pretend like you don't care, people are gonna think that you hate them. [laughs]

    5. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    6. JA

      So, so in a sense, I would say people with ADHD, you are literally forced into a state of vulnerability when it comes to those situations in which you truly want someone. And part of the work is realizing that you're not necessarily different in that you don't date the same way, it's just that you're, you are sort of forced with your, um, working chemistry to date more vulnerably

  11. 30:35 – 32:38

    Unmasking in romantic relationships

    1. AP

      Do you think someone with ADHD going into a new relationship, there's a higher chance that they will feel the need to mask because of their internal f- fear that the new person might think that they're a bit too different? So they might put on this version of themselves and that, that is, that is really liked by their new partner. But then over time you want to unmask because you wanna be your truthest version of yourself for the longevity of the relationship. But is there a fear that the version of yourself that you displayed at the start of the relationship might be different to who you really are underneath, and therefore, what if my partner doesn't like what they see-

    2. JA

      Oh

    3. AP

      ... when the mask comes off?

    4. JA

      Yep, yep. That, that is partly, I think, why those long-term relationships can be so tricky, right? Because you can be wearing such a strong mask at the beginning because like you said, you, like, you might be fearing that rejection. Um, so I would say yes, you, you will much more than the next person be tempted to mask because you're, you're hoping that the other person accepts you, because you've learned over and over and over again that when you don't mask, people reject you. So as you lean to pull that mask off in the relationship, it's hard to do because you're like, "Wait a minute. Am I gonna get that same slap on the wrist that I got in childhood when I unmasked?" Um, but, but the trickiest part about relationships is that you can't fake it for that long. [laughs]

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. JA

      So at some point-

    7. AP

      Yeah

    8. JA

      ... you're gonna get triggered, they're gonna get triggered, and the mask is gonna come off whether you like it or not. Some people with ADHD turn to extreme shame in those moments and they say, "I'm a monster that hurt you. I let this monster out by mistake. I'm sorry, I must go." Or, um, uh, "I finally unmasked. Okay, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop," like, reject me, right?

    9. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JA

      That, that's, that's some of, a, a, a very common experience I've seen with a lot of clients.

    11. AP

      And with rejection, RSD, w- that can f- be a bit of a grenade, right? A minefield in a relationship, particularly when you're, you, you, you feel like you've got so much invested emotionally in this person, and yet sometimes their actions inadvertently might be the cause of a

  12. 32:38 – 36:14

    RSD in relationships

    1. AP

      trigger. H- how do you see RSD causing struggles in a romantic l- relationship with someone with ADHD?

    2. JA

      Yeah. I see it, I see it happen quite a lot because it, it is a grenade, right? Like, your, your rejection sensitivity is something that you've experienced since childhood. You've got all these bruises on your body from when you were rejected in childhood, so you go into a new relationship and this person that's very new to you, and you're very new to them, you're trying to interact. They might be very innocent in a, in a critique or, um, you might be very, uh, reactive to that, that critique, right? And then that person says you're being too much, and then you react and you say, "Well, you're telling me I'm too much. I've been told that since I was a child." I think in relationships it's extremely hard because you, it can recreate all of the pain you went through in childhood again-

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm

    4. JA

      ... with another human being simply because that person doesn't quite understand what's happening in you and because you're also reacting to not the person in front of you, but the people that hurt you for so long.

    5. AP

      How do you deal with that kind of guilt, though? If, if you are triggered and you, you say something nasty in response because you're in that heightened emotional state, but in doing so you're pushing away somebody that you do actually deeply love and you don't wanna hurt, and then you're kind of left on your own after a trigger, after a big argument because of RSD and, and, and I guess you're just filled with shame, filled with guilt, and you kind of wanna go to that person who you've had this big row with after you've regulated and you've come down from that heightened state and, and apologize. Like, how, how do you deal with that rollercoaster of emotions as a person with ADHD, with RSD, and you're scared that you're gonna push that person away because of RSD?

    6. JA

      I would say it's somehow, some way pausing in the middle of the emotion. With ADHD, you can experience huge emotions. You can zoom into something that feels extremely interesting when it comes to positive stimulation, but the same thing can occur when it comes to negative stimulation. So if you're in the middle of a relationship with someone where you're in conflict and the person says something that misses you and you're experiencing a misunderstanding, pausing in the middle of that storm can be one of the greatest changes that you can shift if you're with someone that's open to learning more about you. Because they might be someone that is not very neurodivergent informed, right? There's, there's all sorts of people. But I think pausing in the middle of that storm allows you to try to look past the emotion and to communicate clearly with the other person saying, "Hey, I'm experiencing this and it's rooted in this. I've learned this from my trauma, and it's a chronic trauma, and I need you to be present with me in the middle of it." Um, and I think the second piece might be realizing that it's not your fault that you're feeling this way. You're feeling something very big, and it's important that you allow yourself to, um, feel those things, not from a place of judgment, but more so, more so from a place of recovery.

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JA

      Um, a- are you someone that I can recover with? And it's not gonna look good for a while because we're gonna trigger each other, but over time, just like any relationship, we're gonna slowly build and grow close together and we're gonna learn each other. And then the reptile in me that's been afraid of being hurt since childhood will slowly start to regulate, just like you would with a traumatized cat, you know? You wouldn't run up to a traumatized cat and squeeze it. It might scratch your face. [laughs] You learn to become afraid of the things that the cat's afraid of so that you don't touch those things. And just like the other person is also a traumatized cat, you learn to live

  13. 36:14 – 41:47

    Obsessing over someone (Limerence)

    1. JA

      together.

    2. AP

      You mentioned the word limerence there. Could you briefly explain what you mean by limerence in a relationship?

    3. JA

      So limerence is essentially when you hyper-fixate on another human being. It's basically when you be- you become obsessed with them and their existence. You fantasize about this person. You don't even have to necessarily know them that well, but essentially they feel like God. That can give you both heaven and hell. Um, with ADHD this is quite common because you-Hyperfocus. You already have that tendency to hyperfocus on things that are important to you. You've experienced a lot of rejection from early attachment figures, so when there's an attachment figure that seems very interesting to you, to recover that loss, you are ready to bridge the gap between you and them immediately. Even more so, people with ADHD and anxious attachment for example, um, they, they will hyperfocus on other human beings and try to bridge that connection between the two. And the other piece with ADHD that makes it more common is that you wear your expressions on your face and through your behaviors. When you're, when you're the raw, unfiltered version of yourself, you can chase someone with great intensity. So, so limerence is, is very common because it's, it's really the expression of, "I desire you. I want to have you." And whenever you're someone with ADHD, you can impulsively seek out that other person. You can push for them really hard. So it's, it's very common.

    4. AP

      So if the limerence is high and you perceive this new person as being on such a pedestal, you're hyperfocusing on them, they're your entire world, but you perceive a criticism from that person, is therefore the RSD trigger also heightened?

    5. JA

      Oh, yes. Totally. That, that sends w- if, if being rejected by someone that you didn't have on a pedestal hurts and you can think about it until 3:00 AM, being rejected by someone that you have limerence with, a hyperfixation, you've just been kicked out of heaven, you know? That, that can be something that can cause you not to eat for a few days, right? That feels like hell, and that makes relationships feel that much more scary. So, so a lot of people can even, with ADHD, resign to not wanting to do relationships 'cause they feel like, "I feel like I have psychosis when I have a crush on someone," [laughs] you know?

    6. AP

      [laughs]

    7. JA

      It, it, it feels completely like it takes you away from your ability to engage in reality testing. So, so I would say 1,000 times yes.

    8. AP

      And if the limerence isn't reciprocated, h- what does that look like? I- is that... That's quite a risky situation to be in for someone with ADHD.

    9. JA

      Yeah. It can, it can look like desperation. It can look like the door keeps closing on your face, and this is the one person that just got away. If, if you exponenti- if you think about the exponentially bigger version of that one product at, uh, the supermarket that you couldn't get, [laughs] that, that now you have to somehow forget about

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. JA

      Um, think about that, but times, uh, 100, right? Now there's a human being on the other side that's reminding of your trauma. And as we know with trauma, a lot of people are dealing with this in therapy, but the people that hurt you the most early on are sometimes the people wanna get the most mastery over. So a lot of people with ADHD can be very attracted to people that push them away because they've been feeling like the, the connection is right on the other side of the door of rejection. So, so yes, it, it's really hard to, um, reach that, you know? I- if somebody that keeps pushing away, that can be a very tough situation.

    12. AP

      How do you... Because something I deal with a lot is o- object permanence, which is this idea that something's out of sight, out of mind, and that can cause some struggles. I can forget to reply to emails, reply to text messages, because they're not in my immediate now. But if I'm heartbroken and I'm obsessing over the pain of being hurt by someone I have high limerence over, why does object permanence not apply in that scenario? If they're not in my immediate now, why can't I forget they exist?

    13. JA

      I, I wasn't thinking about object permanence, but that is a brilliant connection and I'm excited to. [laughs]

    14. AP

      [laughs]

    15. JA

      Um, I think with, um, ADHD, right, you have out of sight, out of mind, right? Like, like you're saying. You have difficulties with, uh, working memory in a sense because you, it's harder for you to hold, in a sense, different chunks of information. So of course, if something's not right in front of you that's not stimulating, it's gone. But another thing to consider with ADHD is that when something is truly important to you, because your working memory might be a bit more difficult, it's almost like this difficulty with obj- object permanence makes it even more so hard to deal with the separation. Because now that this person that you're extremely hyperfocused on is pulling away, you're like, "Wait, I don't wanna lose this person forever." So a lot of times with ADHD, especially when you're really hyperfocused on someone, you might need exponentially more evidence to know that that person won't leave you or forsake you. That's why a lot of people with ADHD can deal with fears of abandonment, yet also deal with the issue of out of sight and out of mind.

    16. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JA

      It can feel more comfortable with people that you're not hyperfixated on, but you know how easily you can lose things and people because of short working memory, but also because of, um, rejection and heartbreak. So it makes it even more intense that you don't have that evidence in front of you.

    18. AP

      And do you think men and women experience this experience of limerence and, uh, uh, obsession in the early stages in, in a relationship in equal measure? I ask because 80% of the listeners and viewers of this podcast are women. Um, and perhaps more broadly, first we'll start

  14. 41:47 – 43:13

    Differences between female and male ADHD

    1. AP

      with, do you think ADHD generally presents differently in between men and women?

    2. JA

      Totally, yes. I, I think that a lot of women with ADHD that, that are navigating the world, they experience a lot of stress because if you're, if you're a guy with ADHD, you're still experiencing a whole lot of pain and rejection, of course. Um, but I think when you run into issues for taking up too much space, society looks at you and s- kind of chuckles first and then says, "Cut that out." For a woman, it's, "Cut that out. It's not okay." And then you even get rejected by other women as well, other women that have felt like, "I need to fit into this box of society and make myself small, and I cut that immature side of myself out a long time ago. Why haven't you?" Right? And so I think a lot of women deal with that. And when it comes to dating, unfortunately for a lot of women, you are feeling that part of yourself cry out and it says, "I want to impulsively seek this person. I want to be vulnerable." And ADHD is a vulnerability diagnosis, so when you're trying to navigate relationships as a woman with ADHD, if you lean into something called avoidant attachment, which is essentially a style of relating to people whereVulnerability feels like a curse, because you never wanna give people the opportunity to hurt you again. You can wanna lock yourself in a box. So I've seen a lot of women with ADHD and avoidant attachment avoid dating at all costs, because they feel like, "I, I don't wanna be put in a state where somebody can hurt me."

  15. 43:13 – 49:09

    Signs of an anxious attachment style

    1. AP

      And if someone's listening and they, they, they hear you say that and they're not sure what attachment style they are, what, what might be some common signs of someone who has an attachment, a- anxious attachment style?

    2. JA

      Oh, yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. Um, so, so attachment is basically a word that means, um, uh, how you connect with other people. So, so when you're looking at different styles of attachment, if you wanna figure out which one you relate to, I would say it's good to observe these, uh, four types. You have secure attachment, which is where you have a positive view of yourself and others. Um, you have avoidant attachment, where you feel as though, um, other people are untrustworthy at times, and you can trust yourself to navigate the world, but with other people you're not so sure, and so vulnerability becomes very scary. With anxious attachment, if you lean that way, you are some of the most hopeful people, but you feel like you need to change everything about yourself to meet the boxes of someone else so that you can pull them towards you. It's positive view of others, negative view of self. Uh, finally, there's fearful attachment, where you experience a good bit of both and you have the biggest sometimes internal experiences. A lot of people with ADHD have fearful attachment, which is kind of the worst of both worlds. So if you're listening and you're trying to figure that out, it's worth digging into to, to, and to see how, how do I relate to people? Do I, do I mask so strongly that I, I hide myself because I think vulnerability feels extremely scary? That might look more avoidant. If you're pursuing people and you feel like, "If I only were accepted, I would feel completely at ease in life, um, and I need to do whatever I can to change myself, whether it's exercise, becoming more intellectual or whatever, to win people over, and I keep putting myself in compromising states to do that," that might look a little bit more anxiously attached.

    3. AP

      And what damage can happen in a relationship if you are someone who has an a- anxious attachment style? Like, what, what does that in, in reality look like? What kind of behaviors would someone give off? Is that kind of someone who is constantly seeking reassurance from their partner?

    4. JA

      Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah, traditional anxious attachment, you're constantly seeking a s- you're, you're constantly seeking, um, connection with people. With, uh, ADHD and anxious attachment, imagine how much that enhances that, right? If you have ADHD and anxious attachment, the already existing fears of abandonment grow, because you've been, one, told by society with anxious attachment that, "Okay, you are not enough." Um, you experience that a whole lot. But with ADHD, you literally are rejected for your own neurochemistry. So if you have both ADHD and anxious attachment and you're in a relationship, not only do you need evidence that that person won't leave, but you have a hard time seeing it with your ADHD. Not only do you have a hard time not prioritizing the other person over your day, but you also experience impulsive urges to send them millions of texts, because you also have this wiring of impulsivity, right? So, so when you're dealing with dating with anxious attachment and ADHD, you are 100% given a tough hand to deal with. There's the light side of the other side of the coin, but on the dark side of the coin, relationships are extremely hard to navigate without disrespecting yourself in that way.

    5. AP

      Do you think two people with ADHD are a good match? In other words, like, d- d- do two people who potentially have anxious attachment styles, is that a, is that a good match, or do opposites attract? What are compatible attachment styles?

    6. JA

      I, I think it's actually extremely, um, compatible if it, if it happens. [laughs] But, uh, it is my opinion that a lot of people, it... Two people with ADHD will probably have a hard time, um, connecting with each other. They might meet each other, but the moment that something like dating or relationships come up, it's very likely that one will accidentally reject the other one. Because if you have high levels of rejection sensitivity and you experience difficulties with eye contact and you've been told that you're not enough, it's very likely that as you're talking to someone that you're really invested in, you might look down, or your working memory might be filled up with chunks of information that are taking your ability to focus away. And then the other person on the other side with ADHD is picking all this up, and they feel rejected by all these cues, and then they go into their own head. And so at the end of the day, you both feel like you hate each other's guts. [laughs]

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. JA

      And, and it, and it quite, and, and it never quite gets there because also the executive functioning of trying to push past doing something that seems very daunting is very difficult. So I hardly ever see a lot of people with ADHD with anxious attachment together especially.

    9. AP

      And I guess you can push the person away. You can almost self-sabotage the relationship if you perceive that they have rejected you in some way. It's kind of like you wanna be the one in control of ending the relationship before they hurt you.

    10. JA

      Certainly, yeah. I mean, if you see that there's a daunting task in front of you with ADHD and rejection is on the other side of that, it's very likely that you will head out before it gets too bad, because you're afraid of being hurt again. So if you're experiencing, uh, limerence in relationships, you're hyper-focused on someone, even in that case, you might be so afraid of getting hurt that you pull away because you know that this person is, um... Y- you, you might be leading it to a bad place, right? Even though you're attracted. The, the worst part of ADHD, I think, is also that you are so capable, you have so much potential, and you know that in private, you show so much of that potential. The issue is that when you go in public and you experience what's called that rejection sensitivity, now your working memory is filled up with all sorts of negative pieces of information that disturbs your performance. So if you're experiencing all of that and you're trying to pursue a relationship, that, that can just really, really, uh, make things difficult for you.

    11. AP

      Out of the people I've spoken to, the, the... one of their main concerns is that they want to open up in their relationship about ADHD, but they're concerned that their partnerMight have some misconceptions about what ADHD actually is, some certain myths that feed into a perhaps unhelpful stereotype.

  16. 49:09 – 51:22

    Common ADHD stereotypes

    1. AP

      What do you think are some of the biggest ADHD misconceptions that are out there?

    2. JA

      Uh, yeah, I, the first ADHD misconception that comes to mind, and I think one of the worst misconceptions, is that you are clueless, you are shortsighted, you don't know what's right in front of you, and you have no ability to, uh, be there for the people around you. I think that is a huge misconception because people with ADHD are the most curious people in the world. They long to look deeply at things. But I think the issue is that when you look deeply at things, you might, uh, bump into a wall next to you.

    3. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    4. JA

      [laughs] And so as you're trying to, you have all this ability to go deeply into something, but no bridge to connect to the people around you. And so people see you as sort of this system that's not quite operating effectively in a lot of situations that other people are. So I think that's one of the bigger misconceptions, that you, you aren't clueless. You are so insightful that some people don't get you.

    5. AP

      Mm. Very curious in other people's conversations sometimes when I'm in a restaurant with my partner-

    6. JA

      [laughs]

    7. AP

      ... and I have to bring myself back-

    8. JA

      Yeah

    9. AP

      ... to the conversation. It's, um, m- men and women, I think that's a big myth, right, that sadly still seems to be true in many circles, that ADHD is just a, a male th- issue, a male thing.

    10. JA

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AP

      Um, and do you think it's common for people with ADHD to hear that they just need to work harder by people that perhaps just don't get the internal invisible workload that's going on in their head?

    12. JA

      Yeah, and that's the sometimes the saddest message is that you just need to work harder because you've been working so hard your whole life.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JA

      Most of the clients that I work with, with ADHD, the message is, is exactly the opposite. You've been working so hard, and part of growth is gonna look like you taking a step back. Um, unfortunately, a lot of people with ADHD even get called selfish, right? Because they think that people that are neurotypical are assuming that you're not paying attention to them, they're thinking that you're not caring about them, but in reality, you are so focused on something that can be so deep that you might, the rest of the world can become literally invisible at times. Um, and so people don't get that.

    15. AP

      This has been truly fascinating,

  17. 51:22 – 53:56

    Jacob’s ADHD item

    1. AP

      Jacob. I wanna move on to my favorite part of the show-

    2. JA

      [laughs]

    3. AP

      ... which is called the ADHD item section. Every week my guest brings in an item that most represents ADHD for them, and I'm gonna reveal what yours is now underneath this cloth. Dun, dun, dun, dun.

    4. JA

      Hey. [laughs]

    5. AP

      That is a pair of binoculars. So I'll leave it to you to explain, why does a pair of binoculars represent ADHD?

    6. JA

      I think binoculars work perfectly because I wish that everybody could see that with these, it's, it's exactly what you're wearing all the time with ADHD. I think binoculars are a perfect example of what the experience of someone with ADHD is like because when you look into them, you can see things that are very far away, you can look at them with great detail, and there's fascinating information that you can get depending on what you're looking at. Unfortunately, though, a lot of people don't have these binoculars. These are people that are neurotypical, um, who knows what. So as you're looking at the world with these binoculars, you have all these fascinating insights, yet you can accidentally bump into a wall, and that's what people see. [laughs]

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JA

      So people assume that you are somewhat shortsighted and you don't know what's going on half the time, when in reality, you're in a world that is just as real as the world that other people live in. They just can't see what you see. Unfortunately, with the rejected sensitivity of ADHD, a lot of people will have a fear of opening up about this whole world that they can see. Um, and so they, they won't even go into detail about it. I think the biggest issue is that these binoculars are invisible because a lot of people who are neurotypical that don't also see these binoculars assume that you're either clueless, selfish, or, um, just completely out of the loop on things, when in reality, you're just, you're just really good at seeing things from far away. [laughs] I, I wish that we could all see that-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JA

      ... this is the experience of ADHD and that these binoculars were actually visible, and I think that would actually start to unite people. So that's why I picked these.

    11. AP

      Yeah. Oh, that's fascinating, Jacob.

    12. JA

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      I think that's such a good g- such a good representation. You, you sort of, you're so focused on the world, sometimes you see details that neurotypical people miss, and I think that makes us tremendous problem solvers sometimes. I think people with ADHD, we've had to solve problems from such a young age just to solve the problem of, of feeling different, and maybe that is masking. But we see details that other people miss, and I think it's such an important reminder, um, that thinking differently is not a problem to be fixed, but, but a strength to be embraced. Um, fascinating, Jacob.

  18. 53:56 – 59:29

    Audience questions

    1. AP

      I wanna move on to the ADHD agony aunt section, which is, uh, where a member of the audience sends in a question, um, and it's in a washing machine because my item is a washing machine 'cause it re- represents memory loss because I always leave my clothes in the laundry after a cycle, and I ask all my guests, do you do the same?

    2. JA

      [laughs] Um, I would say yes. [laughs]

    3. AP

      All good. I mean, you know, dare for lie to make me feel better. [laughs]

    4. JA

      [laughs] Yes. No, I, I do.

    5. AP

      Yeah. No, that's fascinating. I think I have been using the Tiimo app, which has made me a little bit better. Um, but yeah, still the smell of damp gets me sometimes-

    6. JA

      [laughs]

    7. AP

      ... and if anyone's watching, a little reminder to go empty your washing machine, um, or restart the, restart the cycle. Um, this week, Jacob, someone's asked, "Even though I'm a little older now in my mid-40s and the world has come a long way to understanding ADHD, I still bear the scars of being misunderstood for so long. Even things said to me at school 30 years ago. Why won't these scars heal?" Gosh, that's a big one.

    8. JA

      Yeah. That's huge. That's the million-dollar question. [laughs]

    9. AP

      Yeah.

    10. JA

      Great, great question, by the way. [laughs] That, that is essentially the experience of a lot of people with ADHD because when you're trying to change any kind of behavior, the only way to change it is you can't just think your way through it. That's the first step, of course, but the second step is that you have to get a new experience. So I want you to imagine that there's a cold pool of water in front of you, and you, you walk down towards it, and you dip your toe in it, and it's really cold. You can pull your toe back out. Your body is gonna be like, "This is really, really not comfortable." The only way that you can actually experience warmth in that moment is to s- go all the way into the pool, stay in it, and then your body will slowly get the new message that it is safe here, it is warm. But you need, in other words, to have new experiences. With ADHD, you are getting new experiences all the time that send the message to you that the water is cold, and what you need are new, healthy relationships that send you the message that the water is warm. So if you can create essentially an equation that shows that you are getting more positive experiences on average of acceptance, pure acceptance, both from yourself and other people, that can slowly shift it. It's gonna take a long time. It's gonna take a lot more time than other people because you're navigating a world that is constantly trying to tell you, "Don't go into the water."

    11. AP

      Hmm.

    12. JA

      But if you can first identify how you're keeping yourself out of the water, um, not saying, "What's wrong with this broken system?" Not yelling at yourself when you make a mistake, realizing that you have real abilities and real disability pieces with ADHD that's different than the world, and then finally surround yourself with people with that same logic, then you can start to see some changes. But it, it is extremely difficult when you're in a world that discourages you from go- all water, right?

    13. AP

      So is it about collecting as much evidence as possible that's contradicting the inner critic that you have that's been built up through y- years of being told that you're different?

    14. JA

      It, yes. It's, it's building up new pieces of evidence and real lived experiences. So at, at the cognitive level, at the level of thought, the new understanding that I am not broken. I am someone that's different, and I have great abilities.

    15. AP

      Hmm.

    16. JA

      But then at the physical level, the behavioral level, it's opening up about your emotions, allowing them to be just as big as they are, and then the person in front of you not saying, "Cut that out," but giving you a hug. If you can get both of those experiences over and over and over again in closeness, then you'll start to feel like your heart's regulated, even in the middle of a misunderstanding.

    17. AP

      And is there anything that he can do also to, to help cement that new bits of evidence that contradict that internal monologue? Like, 'cause I feel like object permanence comes into this, right? 'Cause you could put yourself into the cold water, and you can get that new experience of, "That's not as dangerous as I thought," but perhaps time can go past, and then you could forget-

    18. JA

      Yeah

    19. AP

      ... because the, the inner critic is so hardwired from so many early messages. What can someone do to kind of really help cement that new experience to keep that contradiction more sustained?

    20. JA

      I would say it's, it's truly about creating new systems because 100%, it's so hard with object permanence, it's so hard with, uh, executive dysfunction to keep new things going. But I will say one of the gifts of ADHD is that you are like a train. You, if you build a new habit that stays consistent over the period of, like, a month or so, that is gonna become your new way of life. So if you can create new ways of life that are very practical, that lead to not rejection sensitivity and real rejection experiences, but moments of acceptance-

    21. AP

      Hmm

    22. JA

      ... that can change everything. So I would say find something that you truly are proud of yourself, um, when you do it. You know, if it's an activity or an idea. Find people that will celebrate those things, um, and then allow them to celebrate that. Um, be in spaces where you truly are, um, feeding your ADHD the things that it needs to survive well, right? Um, eating well, um, sleeping well, doing all the things I said to you for positive experiences. I would say that's, that's the best advice. And then, and then finally being in community with someone regularly that-

    23. AP

      Hmm

    24. JA

      ... that supports that way of life. It's huge.

    25. AP

      Really helpful, Jacob. As I said, this has been a lot of fun.

  19. 59:29 – 1:00:31

    A letter to my younger self

    1. AP

      Um, just before we finish, I'm gonna deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest, where the previous guest actually wrote themselves a little letter, uh, for the younger version of themselves, and it was put in that letterbox. If I could deliver the letter to you, Jacob, if you could kindly read it out. This is a letter from the previous guest to their younger self.

    2. JA

      This is so cool. "You won't believe this, but it's true. You're going to become an ADHD advocate. Release some potential. #brainfriend. Hugs and kisses, Christian."

    3. AP

      That was Kristen Pressner. She was amazing.

    4. JA

      Yeah. Oh.

    5. AP

      And if, if, if afterwards, if you could kindly write, um, a letter to your younger self, and then the next guest will read it out.

    6. JA

      Of course.

    7. AP

      Jacob, as I said, uh, truly valuable. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Uh, for all the listeners who are struggling to grapple to understand their brains, thank you very much.

    8. JA

      Thank you for having me. It's been incredible. It's been great. I feel almost a bit emotional [laughs] at this space, so thank you for providing it. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:00:32

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