This Simple ADHD Hack Helped 10,000 Women

Brooke Schnittman 0:00 Women who have ADHD and don't know it, very often that turns into self-esteem issues, anxiety, depression. We don't have a lens to what's happening. We beat ourselves up or we're being told these negative messages before the age of 10. We are at a point as adults with a later diagnosis where there's a lot more work to do, a lot more time to be spent, a lot more negative self-esteem. Brooke Schnittman is a world-leading- Award-winning ADHD coach and expert ... having coached thousands of women with ADHD. If you've ever felt overwhelmed- Paralyzed by thought- Confused or just broken- Then Brooke will help explain why you're often misunderstood Women are expected to be the CEO of the household. I think it just kind of is. We put that expectation on ourselves as well. If we're at 5% battery, we're not going to put that on ourselves. We're gonna give it back to our kids, our husband, our work, the household things. We continue to outdo ourselves. We're people pleasers by nature or perfectionists. There's chronic burnout that I see especially in women as adults, and then of course you have all the hormones on top of that.

Alex Partridge 1:09 Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Brooke, thank you so much for joining us.

Brooke Schnittman 1:48 Thanks for having me, Alex.

Alex Partridge 1:50 This is-

Brooke Schnittman 1:50 Again [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:51 I was gonna say, this is surreal because we have interviewed each other before.

Brooke Schnittman 1:55 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:55 Right?

Brooke Schnittman 1:56 But not in 3D.

Alex Partridge 1:58 Not in 3D, no.

Brooke Schnittman 1:58 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:59 Not in person.

Brooke Schnittman 2:00 No.

Alex Partridge 2:00 I wanted to ask, because your career, your, your journey's fascinating to me. You've helped so many people with ADHD understand their brains, and, and, and as part of that journey, you've set up this huge coaching empire. And I suppose to sort of set the foundation for the interview, how many people with ADHD do you think you have coached?

Brooke Schnittman 2:21 As a company, around 10,000-

Alex Partridge 2:24 So-

Brooke Schnittman 2:24 Through one-on-one and group coaching

Alex Partridge 2:26 ... Right. Okay, so 10,000.

Alex Partridge 2:29 And if there was one bit of advice from those sessions that you think somebody listening to this might take away that might help them, what would be, w- that standout bit of advice?

Brooke Schnittman 2:43 No two ADHD brains are alike, so we're going to work with your unique brain wiring, and you're not alone in this journey. We're gonna focus on your strengths and your values and your purpose, and we're gonna do it slow, and we're gonna do it together, and there's a community supporting you along the way. And there might be ups, there might be downs. Um, that's likely to happen, especially when you get out of your comfort zone and challenge your executive functions. There's gonna be a, a lot of emotional dysregulation, but we're here to support you.

Alex Partridge 3:16 And

Alex Partridge 3:17 where did you s- start? Like, what was your initial motivation to, to start this? What's your mission within the world of ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 3:24 So we want to help one billion people with ADHD in the next five years, um, activate their ADHD potential through tools and accountability. And where I started was one-on-one coaching, but even before that, you and I were talking earlier, and it's a unique journey. Um, I was an elementary education major, and I took one special education class. And I was gonna go into a classroom with neurodiverse students, taking one class. And something lit an interest in me, and I jumped into getting my master's right after that, and got it in students with disabilities from NYU. Graduated, the next day started becoming a special education teacher teaching, and loved it. I did that for 14 years. I was a special education teacher, um, an assistant director of special education in the number one school district in the US, and what I realized going into administration was there was so much red tape. I felt like I was kind of moving away from what I really wanted to do. So fast-forward, I moved, got life coached, and then a friend of mine recommended ADHD coaching. Got certified, became an ADHD coach, and six months later realized I had ADHD this whole time. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 4:57 [laughs] I mean, it's an incredible story and an incredible mission. And to have that goal of reaching a billion people-

Brooke Schnittman 5:04 Yeah

Alex Partridge 5:05 ... like, that's-

Brooke Schnittman 5:06 Yeah

Alex Partridge 5:06 ... that's, that's unbelievable. I mean, the amount of good that's gonna happen. From your experience up to this point, like coaching the amount of people that you have done,

Alex Partridge 5:15 what do you think are the main problems that are affecting the lives of people with ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 5:25 Managing not only themselves, but especially in adulthood, now you're expected to manage being an adult, manage a career, manage a household, manage children, when you're barely managing yourself because you've never learned the tools. So I'd say that that's usually the number one thing that I find-

Alex Partridge 5:49 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 5:49 ... in the clients I work with. Yeah

Alex Partridge 5:51 It's exhausting just hearing you sort of go through that list.

Brooke Schnittman 5:54 Yeah. You work so hard. No one teaches you how to adult.

Alex Partridge 5:58 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 5:59 No- And if you don't know you have ADHD as a child, you're not learning those tools then. And then-You become an adult, you have to learn how to be- become an adult, you have to be independent, and then you have to be interdependent with your spouse. And then you have to teach your children how to be independent as well. There's a lot there

Alex Partridge 6:20 Mm. I mean, there's so mu- so much shame, I think, associated with going through so much of your life as a child, as a teenager, as an early adult, and not understanding why you struggle to do so many things that society has made you think should be totally doable.

Brooke Schnittman 6:39 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 6:39 And you see other people sort of gliding through life, achieving things with apparent ease, and you can't understand why simple tasks are so challenging for you. And I think that creates so much shame, and I suppose therefore the question is,

Alex Partridge 6:52 like, what do you think are the repercussions of not getting a diagnosis or not becoming aware that you have ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 7:01 I definitely wanna answer that, and I just, also, if it's okay, wanna share that thing exactly happened to me. So I was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder when I was a child and received speech for that, was declassified. Then my mom was an educator, and she saw that my reading was slower. I don't know if I had a reading disability, learning disability, but she got me extended time because there was a discrepancy in my reading. Then I had anxiety. I saw a therapist [laughs] on and off my whole life. So to answer your question, we spend so much time trying, and, and resources and money, trying to figure out our brain, and first we're living in the neurotypical world, being told to use a planner, do the neurotypical things, and it's not working. And sometimes we're being misdiagnosed with these other disorders-

Alex Partridge 8:04 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 8:04 ... and we're trying to treat them, but our anxiety is still there, right? Even with all the medication and all the talk therapy, the anxiety's still there. So a lot of clients, and myself too, um, feel like we've wasted time, resources, efforts. And then of course, that leads to the shame that you're mentioning-

Alex Partridge 8:23 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 8:23 ... the intrusive thoughts. But on the flip side, there is hope with that because you can reprogram your brain, neuroplasticity, and it takes time, and it takes hope, and a diagnosis can give you all of that too.

Alex Partridge 8:45 This is so interesting, and I think you explained that perfectly. It, it's the biggest... We spend so much time pre-diagnosis, pre-awareness, trying to turn us into a neurotypical. It's, you know, and, and you said the notebook there, it's one of the biggest lies people with ADHD tell ourselves sometimes is that-

Brooke Schnittman 9:01 Yeah

Alex Partridge 9:01 ... a new notebook is gonna solve all our problems.

Brooke Schnittman 9:03 Right. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 9:04 Um, but it doesn't. [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 9:05 Yeah, exactly.

Alex Partridge 9:06 Um, and if someone's listening and they're not quite there yet, if they're thinking, "Do I have ADHD, do I not?" Like, what do you think are some common signs, um, of someone having ADHD? Maybe some common ones and maybe not so common ones.

Brooke Schnittman 9:21 Hypersensitivity, extreme sensitivity to things. Um, not being able to do the neurotypical tools and recommendations that are out there. Um, being slower to process things. Having anxiety and going to talk therapy, taking medication-

Alex Partridge 9:41 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 9:41 ... but still having anxiety and walking out of an office feeling more anxious than when you came in. Hyper-focusing on the thing that's interesting and having such disdain for the things that aren't interesting.

Alex Partridge 9:56 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 9:57 Not being able to start those uninteresting things, not being able to end those uninteresting things. Maybe doing well in school, because ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence, but just getting to the answer quickly and not showing your work as a student. I see that in my stepsons.

Alex Partridge 10:14 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 10:14 And I s- also have seen it in all the students that I've worked with. So, um, getting to the answer but not being able to explain the process.

Alex Partridge 10:23 Yes. I think people with ADHD are very good at solving problems, but please don't ask me to show my workings.

Brooke Schnittman 10:28 Don't. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 10:29 I have no idea how I worked that out-

Brooke Schnittman 10:30 Right

Alex Partridge 10:30 ... but I did it. [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 10:31 But I promise you it's right. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 10:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 10:33 I didn't cheat.

Alex Partridge 10:34 Yes.

Brooke Schnittman 10:34 I swear.

Alex Partridge 10:35 Yeah, yeah. Well, that's that just sensitivity piece. Like, I don't think we would cheat.

Brooke Schnittman 10:38 No.

Alex Partridge 10:38 Um, I think it's an allergy to boredom a lot of the time. Um, or i- it's like a, a propensity to overwork, to, to just always strive p- for perfection because you're so worried about reinforcing that inner critic that I think so many people with ADHD have that-

Brooke Schnittman 10:57 Right

Alex Partridge 10:57 ... that tells ourselves that we're not good enough, we're not worthy. Um, so some people can, can do really well, but it, it's often at a cost of perfectionism and-

Brooke Schnittman 11:07 Yeah, perfectionism

Alex Partridge 11:07 ... and burnout. You, you, you feel like you can't rest, you can't sit down and watch Netflix because you're, you need to prove someone wrong. You don't wanna let someone down.

Brooke Schnittman 11:16 Sure, sure, especially when you're on the couch at night trying to watch Netflix, and you think of all of the daunting tasks that you didn't attend to, all the text messages that you haven't responded to-

Alex Partridge 11:28 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 11:28 ... right? Oh, there's that one thing, and I need to get out of the couch, and your partner's waiting on the couch for you, and you just never get through the show.

Alex Partridge 11:34 Yes, yes.

Brooke Schnittman 11:35 You barely got through- [laughs]

Alex Partridge 11:36 [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 11:36 ... the first five minutes after an hour or two. Or maybe you didn't even pick the show because you're so busy trying to make a decision on what episode-

Alex Partridge 11:44 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 11:45 ... is gonna be interesting to you.

Alex Partridge 11:47 I mean, it's exhausting. It's like ADHD is like having, again, those highly caffeinated squirrels, um, inside your head constantly, each one pulling you in a different direction, and the overwhelm that that can create.

Brooke Schnittman 11:59 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 11:59 Um, you could be sat on the sofa watching a film with your partner, and you can't focus on the film because those squirrels are, are pulling you to reply to that email, don't let that person down, don't be late tomorrow.Because all of those things, if you do them, they're gonna validate that, that internal monologue critic-

Brooke Schnittman 12:16 Exactly

Alex Partridge 12:16 ... that so many of us have.

Brooke Schnittman 12:18 Exactly. And the noise gets louder when you don't have systems and processes, and that emotional regulation-

Alex Partridge 12:25 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 12:25 ... um, tools, and your nervous system is very nervous, and you're burned out already. It's really hard to get out of burnout-

Alex Partridge 12:33 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 12:33 ... and get to that place where your battery is charged again, and you can start focusing and hyper-focusing-

Alex Partridge 12:41 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 12:41 ... and getting back into your routine.

Alex Partridge 12:44 From your experience, do you think there's a difference in how ADHD men and ADHD women experience the experience of living with adult ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 12:56 So adult, adult ADHD, women are expected to be the CEO of the household. I think it just kind of is. And we put that expectation on ourselves as well. And if we're at 5% battery, we're not going to put that on ourselves. We're gonna give it back to our kids, our husband, our work, all of the laundry, the household things. So yes, I think, um, for a woman, we continue to outdo ourselves, um, have difficulty letting it be, um, we're people pleasers by nature or perfectionists. So there's chronic burnout that I see, especially in women-

Alex Partridge 13:43 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 13:43 ... as adults. And then of course, you have all the hormones on top of that.

Alex Partridge 13:47 Sure. And that cycle of burnout, which I think you really explained perfectly then, it's like that overworking, whether that's at work or in the household, and then you don't realize that you're giving so much of your mental capacity to just day-to-day tasks and masking.

Brooke Schnittman 14:04 Absolutely.

Alex Partridge 14:05 So I think so many women don't realize how much they're masking, like pretending to be someone that they're not in order to fit in-

Brooke Schnittman 14:12 Yeah

Alex Partridge 14:13 ... um, and to be liked-

Brooke Schnittman 14:15 Mm-hmm

Alex Partridge 14:15 ... or to not offend anyone.

Brooke Schnittman 14:16 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 14:17 And then you get home after a long day of doing that, and it's no surprise that you're absolutely exhausted.

Brooke Schnittman 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 14:21 And then a big row happens with your partner because you don't have the, the-

Brooke Schnittman 14:26 You don't have the bandwidth

Alex Partridge 14:26 ... the capacity to, to, to, to speak.

Brooke Schnittman 14:29 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 14:30 Like how do you see ADHD presenting problems in women specifically as, as they sort of go through life

Alex Partridge 14:39 without the awareness that they have ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 14:41 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, [sighs] of course, we mask. Uh, we wanna fit in. We wanna look like from the outside, um, everything is okay. We are put together. Um, we want to run the household. We want to be successful in our relationships. And with women who have ADHD and don't know it, very often that turns into self-esteem issues, anxiety, depression, and it's because we don't have a lens to what's happening, so we beat ourselves up or we're being told these negative messages before, 20,000 or negative-

Alex Partridge 15:23 Mm-hmm

Brooke Schnittman 15:23 ... messages before the age of 10, and this is boys and girls at that age. But, um, we are at a point as adults with a later diagnosis where there's a lot more work to do, a lot more time to be spent, a lot more, um, negative self-esteem.

Alex Partridge 15:44 Mm. It's heartbreaking, that 20,000 negative messages, extra negative messages that people with ADHD are exposed to in their-

Brooke Schnittman 15:52 Yeah

Alex Partridge 15:52 ... early years.

Brooke Schnittman 15:53 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 15:53 You know, comments like, "Stop fidgeting. Stop being lazy. You're so sensitive. Why can't you just start the task?"

Brooke Schnittman 15:59 I've gotten, "You're so sensitive" from my family members. Like-

Alex Partridge 16:02 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 16:02 ... "Why are you so sensitive?" I don't know. Maybe I should stop being so sensitive. Okay. Now, I talk to my family members and I'm like, "Yeah, I know I'm sensitive, and I wanna tell you how I feel about this."

Alex Partridge 16:16 Mm-hmm. I mean, it's incredible to hear that so many women now are getting answers and finally becoming aware that they're not broken, they're just different, and that they have always been enough.

Brooke Schnittman 16:29 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 16:30 80 per- 85% of the viewers, listeners of this podcast are women.

Brooke Schnittman 16:33 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 16:34 I think they come to the podcast to hear people like yourself add color and context to a lifetime of being misunderstood.

Alex Partridge 16:41 But do you think there's a, a valid resentment amongst women, um, who are getting a diagnosis or becoming aware slightly later in life that they have been let down?

Brooke Schnittman 16:52 Definitely. I mean, we've thought we were broken for a long time. We were never good enough. And of course, we felt alone. And then getting that diagnosis was a lens, way more than a label, right? And gave us the understanding that it was the ADHD the whole time, and we have a thing, right, that we can work through and understand, and a community and hope.

Alex Partridge 17:26 Mm. Why do you think it takes or took women, and still takes women longer to get a diagnosis? Why is the average age of a woman significantly higher, do you think, than a man still?

Brooke Schnittman 17:37 I think it's a masking still. And as a former special education teacher, most of the diagnoses were in school. And the typical boy in the classroom is a hyperactive boy who calls out, can't sit still, um, you know, interrupts. But the girls do their best to hold it in, right? So then we have racing thoughts. Then we have, um, you know, all of this overwhelm inside our body. It's a psychosomatic feeling that we let out when we get home, and that turns into anxiety and depression. So-I think that's part of the reason why girls are not diagnosed as quickly as boys. And then once adulting happens and hormones change and we realize it's even more difficult to manage, there wasn't even an adult diagnosis of ADHD in the UK s- until 2008.

Alex Partridge 18:37 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 18:37 And then in America, it wasn't until 1994. And then people didn't even know about ADHD, a lot of people, until 2020, right? Or they just categorize it as the boy who is hyperactive.

Alex Partridge 18:52 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 18:52 I remember my mom, when I realized I had ADHD, she goes, "But you always look..." And this is a teacher, a former teacher, "You always look like you're paying attention-

Alex Partridge 19:01 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 19:01 ... and you're shaking your head, and you're giving me eye contact, and saying yes." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm... But I, I'm not processing what you're saying."

Alex Partridge 19:10 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 19:10 So-

Alex Partridge 19:10 So interesting. I, I, I'm f- I got my diagnosis at 34, and it, it, I realized that eye contact was masking. Like I say, you can either have my perfect eye contact or my undivided attention, but you can't have both.

Brooke Schnittman 19:22 Yes, and that's why it's so important for adults who have children to not force them to make eye contact.

Alex Partridge 19:29 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 19:29 Because if they're making eye contact, first of all, it gives, it can give them f- a lot of anxiety, and they might have a more difficult time paying attention to what you're actually saying-

Alex Partridge 19:40 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 19:40 ... because they're reading your face, they're reading the emotions, and they can shut down. So never make someone make eye contact.

Alex Partridge 19:48 Mm. A quick word from our sponsor. We've all had that nightmare. You're on that final warning from that friend. If you miss their birthday again, your friendship is over. Finito. And you do miss it. Even worse, you miss their wedding, and you were giving the speech, the speech you forgot to write. "I can change," you plead with them. And they say, "No, you can't." Well, actually, you can. How? Tiimo app, that's how. Tiimo app has organized me in a way that's made me unrecognizable to my nearest and dearest. What ADHD? Tiimo's ultimate planning partner checking in on you to see what you need help with and what chores you need to accomplish day to day. The important difference is Tiimo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains, and you can tell. It's built to adapt to your neurodivergent way of thinking and be flexible to your way of planning, and now it's even more simple with the AI planning assistant. Tiimo offers an incredible new voice transcribing service, making it even easier to use. It's almost so simple that it feels like a cheat code to play life on easy mode. Give it a go, and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note, though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to

Alex Partridge 20:59 the show. Moving on from then, like, what do you think are the main stumbling blocks, um, in later life with, w- for someone who has ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 21:09 Managing a household-

Alex Partridge 21:11 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 21:11 ... having a healthy relationship, um, being able to create your own structure in your life without having the external structure from work, um, being able to pay your bills on time, not because you don't have the money, but because-

Alex Partridge 21:30 Yeah [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 21:30 ... you forget about them, right? Or you didn't put them on auto pay.

Alex Partridge 21:33 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 21:33 Or you'll say you've, you'll get to that later, and it's, you know, the bill is right in front of you, and you look at it every day, and then you stop looking at it, right? Um, or you forget to take out the trash, or, um, and you're just consistently inconsistent.

Alex Partridge 21:46 Brooke, you mentioned earlier your company has coached 10,000 people with ADHD.

Alex Partridge 21:51 How do you see masking showing up in the lives of those people?

Brooke Schnittman 21:55 Very often in work and social situations, a lot of introverted extroverts or just introverts, um, or social anxiety with ADHD, uh, but being in a social situation and almost imitating the social cues that they get from other people to then figure out how they're going to respond to an interaction. Uh, so very often in social situations, in work, they don't want to be seen as different, so they go along, even in ways where it might not work for their unique learning style or their unique brain. So spending lots of hours after work trying to process everything and do the work because they couldn't focus during work or re- teach it to themselves, getting there early, spending out way more hours than when the custodians show up, and just to function-

Alex Partridge 22:59 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 22:59 ... right? And then pretending like everything is okay. So I see that a lot in work.

Alex Partridge 23:04 So interesting. I thi- I feel like people with ADHD are the world's best actors. We're, we're really good at playing a character called normal.

Brooke Schnittman 23:11 Absolutely. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:12 Um, like chameleons, we shape-shift.

Brooke Schnittman 23:14 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 23:14 We can-

Brooke Schnittman 23:14 Yep

Alex Partridge 23:15 ... mirror-

Brooke Schnittman 23:15 Yep

Alex Partridge 23:16 ... people's body language-

Brooke Schnittman 23:17 Yep

Alex Partridge 23:18 ... tone of voice, posture, almost to kind of fit in and, and not get their disapproval.

Brooke Schnittman 23:25 Yes.

Alex Partridge 23:25 We're so aware that we have to be liked at all times, and we're al- almost in autopilot to avoid a criticism or a rejection. So we just-

Brooke Schnittman 23:34 Yes

Alex Partridge 23:34 ... find ourselves constantly becoming the person-

Brooke Schnittman 23:37 Yes

Alex Partridge 23:37 ... that we're talking to.

Brooke Schnittman 23:38 People... When I was single, I always said, "I am an amazing first date."

Alex Partridge 23:42 [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 23:43 People always wanna go on a second date with me because I was able to mask so well. And then on my second date, eh, not so much. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:53 Yeah. [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 23:53 Same thing with interviews. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:55 And I've heard you u- in the past talk about advanced masking.

Brooke Schnittman 23:59 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 23:59 What's that?

Brooke Schnittman 24:00 When someone can be so hyperfocused, here's just an example, in one area of their life, like let's say they're the best CEO of their company, everyone loves them, they're performing, but then their home life is falling apart. Their relationship is falling apart. They can't manage any organization. They're not working out. They're notFilling other cups and areas of their life because they're so burnt out-

Alex Partridge 24:27 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 24:27 ... from putting all of their eggs in this one basket. That's a very common example that I see in my clients.

Alex Partridge 24:36 And do you think there's a, a positive side of masking?

Brooke Schnittman 24:40 Absolutely. It's a survival mechanism. You have to mask. You're, depending on the work environment, most likely not going to act the same way at a bar as you are at work, or at a work interview, or on a date-

Alex Partridge 24:55 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 24:56 ... or on the train. So different environments call for different ways of being. And yes, I think that would be the helpful area of masking.

Alex Partridge 25:09 How important do you think it is, like, you mentioned environment there. How important do you think it is for someone with ADHD to be operating in a environment that is catered, suitable for their brain?

Brooke Schnittman 25:22 Extremely envi- extremely important. If you're not in the right environment for you, that's where the burnout happens. That's where the negative self-talk happens. That's where the negative self-esteem happens.

Alex Partridge 25:35 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 25:35 That's where you feel like you're the problem and you have to do everything you can to catch up. That's where your nervous system is dysregulated. That's almost like focusing on your weaknesses and then becoming anxious, stressed, and depressed.

Alex Partridge 25:47 I mean, it's so relatable. And I think, like, I, I spoke, I've spoken to a lot of people and there seems to be this divide between people with ADHD who it's such a hindrance in their life, and other people with ADHD who seem to be thriving with it, like, doing really interesting things. And I've always put it down to the people who are living with ADHD who are doing well, they've, they've really worked on their self-awareness.

Brooke Schnittman 26:10 Yes.

Alex Partridge 26:11 I think generally, a lot of people with ADHD have low self-awareness because of the masking that we've spoken about.

Brooke Schnittman 26:18 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 26:18 Years of pretending to be someone that they're not, they ultimately end up not really understanding who they really are. And as a consequence of that, they say yes to things that aren't a good fit for them.

Brooke Schnittman 26:30 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 26:30 Relationships, jobs, hobbies that they're probably not actually interested in. They're just doing because short-term dopamine has told them that they, that might be fun.

Brooke Schnittman 26:39 Right, that limerence, right? Or feeling like, "If they just do this, this person's gonna like me, and I'm gonna fit in-

Alex Partridge 26:46 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 26:47 ... and I'm gonna be neurotypical, and I'm going to just fix myself so they like me."

Alex Partridge 26:52 Yes.

Brooke Schnittman 26:53 So many people, including myself, have been there. "I'm gonna make this person like me. I'm gonna make this person love me, and then everything's gonna be great." But once you drop that, and you have to have real self-awareness, you have to understand your strengths, you have to understand your values, you have to understand your purpose, that doesn't come that easily as a child, right? Our executive functions are at a 30% delay as a child. So once we understand all of that and we create that awareness, then we can start really showing up and building momentum, and then eventually, with accountability and systems and tools that work, that's where the confidence comes in to own your ADHD. But just because you have the diagnosis of ADHD doesn't make you confident.

Alex Partridge 27:40 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 27:41 You have to do the work, which is hard.

Alex Partridge 27:44 Is there anything else someone can do, someone who might be finding their ADHD a hindrance, but wants to turn it into a bit of a, a positive? Like, what can someone do other than working on their self-awareness, something that perhaps hasn't been spoken about so much before?

Brooke Schnittman 28:00 Um, leaning into what makes them uniquely them. So find out what, during the day, energizes them.

Alex Partridge 28:09 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 28:10 So I know it's probably boring and tedious, but if you can pay attention to what drains you and what energizes you and lean into the things that energize you more, then you can live a more positive, happy life where you feel fulfilled.

Alex Partridge 28:28 And I guess it's doing all these things, right, to sort of combat the, the probable low self-esteem that that person might have.

Brooke Schnittman 28:36 Right. And I think anyone in life, if you lean into the things that energize y- yourself, that is... Like, if you do things that make you happy over and over again-

Alex Partridge 28:47 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 28:47 ... that's going to give you self-esteem. It might not be in Dr. Gabor Maté's saying, like, true self-esteem, but no one really has that innate self-esteem. So if you continue to do things that bring you joy over and over again and you continue to work on yourself and create success, you're gonna build your self-esteem.

Alex Partridge 29:07 Do you think there's a challenge there? Because I feel like lots of people with ADHD, they, they want to do things that they truly enjoy and that will build their self-esteem. But a lot of people are, are living in a fear of rejection and confrontation, and that stops them from taking action towards doing things that will benefit themselves.

Brooke Schnittman 29:28 And I think that's where a community comes in. Dr. Hallowell talks about vitamin C, vitamin connect, and we're much stronger when we're with people-

Alex Partridge 29:38 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 29:38 ... like us who can get us out of our own comfort zone. And if they're doing challenging things, it's more likely that we're gonna do challenging things too. So that's the benefit of group coaching or a group whatever. Being around people who are similar to you and are doing things that are out of their comfort zone-

Alex Partridge 29:59 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 29:59 ... is going to push you more too.

Alex Partridge 30:01 Yeah, absolutely. Never worry alone-

Brooke Schnittman 30:03 Right

Alex Partridge 30:03 ... I think was Ned's, was primary-

Brooke Schnittman 30:05 Right

Alex Partridge 30:05 ... word of advice.

Brooke Schnittman 30:05 Exactly. Exactly.

Alex Partridge 30:07 In your coaching sessions, like, RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, must be a common recurring topic. Do you have any explanations? Like, or I suppose firstly, how would you describe the feeling of RSD for someone who might not be familiar with it?

Brooke Schnittman 30:23 A lot of people talk about, like, that-Punch in their chest

Alex Partridge 30:27 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 30:27 The huge weight of the perceived rejection or actual rejection in the moment, and I also see it as the rejection later on, right? Coming up six months later or years later, "Oh, I said that thing." And it weighs so heavily on us, like it's real, right? The negative sticks so much louder than the positives. So, the, you asked me why the rejection sensitivity is louder for neurodivergents-

Alex Partridge 30:57 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 30:57 ... especially ADHD. It is because of those 20,000 negative messages. It is because we haven't had the systems that work for our brain or the awareness that are for our brain. It is because we were meant, we weren't meant, but we were told to do things a certain way, and we tried so hard and failed because we didn't have the right ways of doing it.

Alex Partridge 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Brooke Schnittman 31:17 So, um, we need ways to reframe things, cognitive behavioral therapy, um, understanding how to feel successful by living in our intentions and also when we're living in our intentions and taking action, having the tools for our emotional dysregulation that's gonna come up while we're doing those things.

Alex Partridge 31:37 Mm.

Alex Partridge 31:38 What are your views on ADHD medication?

Brooke Schnittman 31:40 I think that the stats say 70 to 80% of people who take ADHD medication, it works for. It might take two to three years for it to work, which can be really hard for people with ADHD who want it to work right away and to go through that trial and error process. And I also think with medication, we have to try the behavioral strategies first, especially with children. So pills don't teach skills. We wanna make sure that we have the tools, and medication is one of those tools. And the best hierarchy to improve your overall executive function and emotional regulation are the behavioral skills, the medication.

Alex Partridge 32:24 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 32:24 Those two things work together the best, uh, doctors have shared. But medication doesn't work for everyone, and it's not for everyone, so it's really important to speak to your doctor and make sure that you do have those behavioral tools first.

Alex Partridge 32:39 What's an example of a behavioral tool that someone could-

Brooke Schnittman 32:43 Like understanding what your priorities are, how to prioritize, how to make decisions with confidence and ease.

Alex Partridge 32:50 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 32:51 We talked about the Netflix example, right, of what show should I watch. I mean, our brains are so loud. We can be overwhelmed and burned out from decision-making. So we need to be able to thrive, not only function day to day, and medication is only good for while it's in your body, but it's not gonna tell you what to focus on. It's not gonna tell you how to prioritize. It's not gonna tell you, you know, what your goals are and what your values are and what your strengths are and how do, where your optimal focus time is. You need all of those things on top of medication.

Alex Partridge 33:30 What about sleep? Because I feel like a lot of people with ADHD do struggle to wind down.

Brooke Schnittman 33:35 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 33:35 Um, when their head hits the pillow, the racing thoughts can come, and they can really struggle to, to, to fall asleep.

Brooke Schnittman 33:42 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 33:42 Do you have any tips on what someone could do to maybe impro- improve their sleep?

Brooke Schnittman 33:47 Besides all the things that you typically hear, one of the best things I've heard was we need stimulation before bed.

Alex Partridge 33:54 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 33:54 So that could be washing the dishes. That could be doing laundry. That could be tidying up. But we don't want to overstimulate ourselves, or else that's going to keep us up, right, and we're gonna have our second wind. So light stimulation. Another thing that's helpful, and other sleep doctors will disagree, but for people with ADHD, watching the show that's boring or that's predictable so you don't have to overthink it before you go to bed, that could be your stimulation. Um, I interviewed the sleep doctor on Successful with ADHD, and he told me, above everything, don't prioritize so much about what you're gonna do before you go to sleep. We overthink sleeping, right?

Alex Partridge 34:38 Yes. [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 34:38 We get anxious about trying to fall asleep. So if we think less about it, that can actually help us. I had a client one time who, who wouldn't go to bed before 1:00, and she's like, "I tried the white noise. I tried the air conditioning. I tried the blackout shades. I tried the weighted blanket." I was like, "Okay, great. Have you ever tried not thinking about anything regarding sleep and just going to sleep?" And I swear to God, she now goes to bed at 11:00, and she goes, "I thought you were crazy when you told me that, but that has worked." Another thing is staying asleep. When you wake up in the middle of the night with that random thing that pops in your head-

Alex Partridge 35:22 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 35:22 ... have the notebook so you can just write it down so you don't forget it. And then if you really can't fall asleep, count back from 100 and try to fall asleep that way. Another suggestion is if you really can't go back to sleep at 3:00 AM or whatever, leave the room. Don't put so much pressure on yourself. Eventually, you're gonna get tired. It might not be that day, but the next day you're going to fall asleep at some point. So if we could put less pressure on our sleep, it's a lot easier to maintain systems.

Alex Partridge 35:56 Mm. I think it was Ned Halliwell who described similar to what you're saying about moving, get- getting out of bed. Like, he, he called it state change. Like, s- change your literal state. Don't lie in bed-

Brooke Schnittman 36:07 Correct

Alex Partridge 36:07 ... worrying about not being able to sleep.

Brooke Schnittman 36:08 Correct.

Alex Partridge 36:08 Get up. Go into another room. Do something else-

Brooke Schnittman 36:10 Yes

Alex Partridge 36:10 ... and then come back to it.

Brooke Schnittman 36:11 Yes. Don't associate your lack of sleep with bed.

Alex Partridge 36:15 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 36:15 Leave your bed. Go somewhere else, and if you can't fall back asleep, okay.

Alex Partridge 36:20 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 36:20 Don't go back to sleep, but the next night, eventually, your melatonin is going to, and your sleep cycles will add up-

Alex Partridge 36:26 Mm

Brooke Schnittman 36:26 ... and you willNot necessarily catch up on sleep, but your sleep cycles will have a rhythm again

Alex Partridge 36:35 Your podcast is called Successful With ADHD, and you've interviewed-

Brooke Schnittman 36:40 You

Alex Partridge 36:40 ... hun- yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 36:42 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 36:42 Hundreds of people with ADHD, and you've seen a broad spectrum of outcomes and people.

Alex Partridge 36:48 Out of the people who have been, quote-unquote, successful and, and the ones that are probably still struggling and finding it more of a hindrance, what are the people who are, say, finding success with it doing differently?

Brooke Schnittman 37:00 They are aware of how their unique brain works, and they're leaning into their creativity, their strengths, not listening to other people saying, "Oh, you can't do that as a professional," or, "You can't do this every day." They're actually leaning into it and hyper-focusing on that and making careers out of it, making, um, lives out of it, so leaning into their strengths.

Alex Partridge 37:24 Truly inspiring, Brooke. Um, I could talk to you all day. Thank you so, so much.

Brooke Schnittman 37:27 Absolutely.

Alex Partridge 37:29 Before I move on to the Agony Aunt section,

Alex Partridge 37:32 I wanna reveal your ADHD item-

Brooke Schnittman 37:35 Okay

Alex Partridge 37:36 ... which has been patiently waiting underneath that cloth for the entire interview. I'm gonna lean forward and reveal it now.

Brooke Schnittman 37:42 Dun-da-na-na. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 37:44 Right. That is a... Now, I think you said it's a fanny pack.

Brooke Schnittman 37:48 Fanny pack.

Alex Partridge 37:48 Fanny pack. What's, wha-

Brooke Schnittman 37:49 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 37:50 Firstly, what is a fanny pack?

Brooke Schnittman 37:51 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 37:51 'Cause I don't know what that is, and what-

Brooke Schnittman 37:53 Ev-

Alex Partridge 37:53 Why does it represent ADHD?

Brooke Schnittman 37:55 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 37:55 [laughs]

Brooke Schnittman 37:56 A fanny pack goes around your waist. Some people wear it across their shoulder. But I, my mystery object was a pocketbook of some sort, right? And the reason why is because in my pocketbook, and many people I know, there's receipts, there's lipstick stains, there's water, there's apples, there's chocolate. So there's the things you don't need. There's the things you do need that have been there forever, some of the things that you need right now. And it weighs on us, right? And ADHD is all about accessing the things we need, even in our chaotic brain.

Alex Partridge 38:35 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 38:35 So we still might have the receipts from 20 years ago, but if we can access the lipstick or acc- access our phone when we need it, um, then we can lean into organizing our life with our ADHD.

Alex Partridge 38:50 Really useful. It's an analogy and also a, a life hack, [laughs] an ADHD hack.

Brooke Schnittman 38:56 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 38:56 So there's two birds with one stone.

Brooke Schnittman 38:57 Absolutely.

Alex Partridge 38:58 Penultimately to the ADHD Agony Aunt section-

Brooke Schnittman 39:01 Oh, okay

Alex Partridge 39:01 ... which is where a member of the audience sends in a question, and it goes in the washing machine of woes.

Brooke Schnittman 39:05 Oh, whoa.

Alex Partridge 39:05 It's called the washing machine of woes because-

Brooke Schnittman 39:07 Woes me

Alex Partridge 39:07 ... a washing machine is my item. Yes.

Brooke Schnittman 39:09 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 39:09 Yes, essentially. Um, because I always leave my clothes in the laundry after the cycle finishes, and I always-

Brooke Schnittman 39:15 And then do another cycle-

Alex Partridge 39:16 Exactly

Brooke Schnittman 39:16 ... the next day.

Alex Partridge 39:17 Yeah.

Brooke Schnittman 39:17 Okay.

Alex Partridge 39:17 More ADHD ticks-

Brooke Schnittman 39:18 Yeah

Alex Partridge 39:18 ... more money I have-

Brooke Schnittman 39:19 Yeah, yeah

Alex Partridge 39:19 ... to spend on-

Brooke Schnittman 39:20 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 39:20 Do you do, do you leave your clothes in the machine?

Brooke Schnittman 39:22 Remember I have five people in my family, so yeah.

Alex Partridge 39:26 Gosh, chaotic.

Brooke Schnittman 39:27 Yes, very chaotic.

Alex Partridge 39:27 But nice to feel like I'm not alone-

Brooke Schnittman 39:28 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 39:28 ... and I'm not the only person who does it.

Brooke Schnittman 39:30 Mounds of clothing-

Alex Partridge 39:31 Yeah

Brooke Schnittman 39:32 ... everywhere.

Alex Partridge 39:32 Although I have been using the Tiimo app, um, which has helped me remember to empty my washing machine. This week, Brooke, someone has written in and asked, "I think that my girlfriend has ADHD because of various traits that hinder her in life, but she is not interested in a diagnosis. I think a diagnosis will help the longevity of our relationship. Do you think a diagnosis can change someone's life?"

Brooke Schnittman 40:00 Absolutely. Similar to what I was saying before, ADHD isn't just a label. It's a lens, right? So it will help people know the things that they've struggled with for so long and why and be able to receive the help. I know in my coaching experience, there's a lot of cultures out there, like Asian, South Asian, where it's forbidden to get the diagnosis, or you can't talk about it with your family.

Alex Partridge 40:28 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 40:28 But knowing as a client or as the individual that you have it, now there's more you can do about it. There's more choices you can make. There's more communities you can join. Um, you'd feel less alone.

Alex Partridge 40:43 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 40:43 So I would lean less against the label stigma and think about it more as a lens into your future life.

Alex Partridge 40:51 Amazingly helpful. Thank you so much-

Brooke Schnittman 40:53 Yeah

Alex Partridge 40:53 ... Brooke.

Alex Partridge 40:54 Just finally, I want to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest-

Brooke Schnittman 40:59 Ooh

Alex Partridge 40:59 ... where they wrote their three rules to live by.

Brooke Schnittman 41:02 Okay.

Alex Partridge 41:02 And I'm going to deliver it to you now, Brooke.

Brooke Schnittman 41:04 Ooh. Thank you. To the next guest, think about what you wanna do to change. Choose to advocate instead of change. Two, use your creativity and change the environment. It may be them, not you. Yes. Three, unmasking takes years. Try to enjoy it. It might be them, not you. That resonates so much.

Alex Partridge 41:32 Mm.

Brooke Schnittman 41:32 And until we understand ourselves and we get that s- confidence and you build momentum through that 1% action and feel confident and less alone, we always think we're the problem.

Alex Partridge 41:44 Yeah.

Brooke Schnittman 41:45 Right?

Alex Partridge 41:45 Truly fascinating. Yeah.

Brooke Schnittman 41:46 I love that.

Alex Partridge 41:47 Once again, Brooke, thank you so much. I know you've come a long way to be here today. So on behalf of everyone grappling to understand their brains, thank you so much.

Brooke Schnittman 41:55 Thank you for having me, Alex. It's a pleasure. [upbeat music]