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ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Chatter Podcast

This SIMPLE (and proven) hack helped 10,000 ADHD Women | The ADHD Expert

Brooke Schnittman is a world leading, award winning, ADHD coach and expert, having coached thousands of women with ADHD. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, paralysed by thought, confused or just broken, then Brooke will help explain why you’re often misunderstood. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 02:28 Brooke’s ADHD advice 03:17 Brooke’s mission 05:15 The main ADHD struggles (and how to solve them) 06:52 Positives and negatives of a diagnosis 12:44 The differences between female ADHD and male ADHD 14:39 Specific challenges for ADHD women 16:41 The anger of a late diagnosis 19:48 Tiimo advert 20:59 Later life stumbling blocks for ADHD adults 21:51 How masking affects ADHD adults 25:09 3 environmental changes to help ADHD 30:07 How to manage Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 31:38 ADHD medication 33:30 ADHD and sleep tips 36:48 How to be successful with ADHD 37:32 Brooke’s ADHD item 38:58 The ADHD agony aunt 40:54 3 rules to live by Find Brooke on Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/coachingwithbrooke/?hl=en Visit Brooke’s website 👉 https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer Editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Brooke SchnittmanguestAlex Partridgehost
Sep 29, 202542mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:28

    Trailer

    1. BS

      Women who have ADHD and don't know it, very often that turns into self-esteem issues, anxiety, depression. We don't have a lens to what's happening. We beat ourselves up or we're being told these negative messages before the age of 10. We are at a point as adults with a later diagnosis where there's a lot more work to do, a lot more time to be spent, a lot more negative self-esteem. Brooke Schnittman is a world-leading- Award-winning ADHD coach and expert ... having coached thousands of women with ADHD. If you've ever felt overwhelmed- Paralyzed by thought- Confused or just broken- Then Brooke will help explain why you're often misunderstood Women are expected to be the CEO of the household. I think it just kind of is. We put that expectation on ourselves as well. If we're at 5% battery, we're not going to put that on ourselves. We're gonna give it back to our kids, our husband, our work, the household things. We continue to outdo ourselves. We're people pleasers by nature or perfectionists. There's chronic burnout that I see especially in women as adults, and then of course you have all the hormones on top of that.

    2. AP

      Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Brooke, thank you so much for joining us.

    3. BS

      Thanks for having me, Alex.

    4. AP

      This is-

    5. BS

      Again [laughs]

    6. AP

      I was gonna say, this is surreal because we have interviewed each other before.

    7. BS

      Yeah.

    8. AP

      Right?

    9. BS

      But not in 3D.

    10. AP

      Not in 3D, no.

    11. BS

      Yeah.

    12. AP

      Not in person.

    13. BS

      No.

    14. AP

      I wanted to ask, because your career, your, your journey's fascinating to me. You've helped so many people with ADHD understand their brains, and, and, and as part of that journey, you've set up this huge coaching empire. And I suppose to sort of set the foundation for the interview, how many people with ADHD do you think you have coached?

    15. BS

      As a company, around 10,000-

    16. AP

      So-

    17. BS

      Through one-on-one and group coaching

    18. AP

      ... Right. Okay, so 10,000.

  2. 2:28 – 3:17

    Brooke’s ADHD advice

    1. AP

      And if there was one bit of advice from those sessions that you think somebody listening to this might take away that might help them, what would be, w- that standout bit of advice?

    2. BS

      No two ADHD brains are alike, so we're going to work with your unique brain wiring, and you're not alone in this journey. We're gonna focus on your strengths and your values and your purpose, and we're gonna do it slow, and we're gonna do it together, and there's a community supporting you along the way. And there might be ups, there might be downs. Um, that's likely to happen, especially when you get out of your comfort zone and challenge your executive functions. There's gonna be a, a lot of emotional dysregulation, but we're here to support you.

    3. AP

      And

  3. 3:17 – 5:15

    Brooke’s mission

    1. AP

      where did you s- start? Like, what was your initial motivation to, to start this? What's your mission within the world of ADHD?

    2. BS

      So we want to help one billion people with ADHD in the next five years, um, activate their ADHD potential through tools and accountability. And where I started was one-on-one coaching, but even before that, you and I were talking earlier, and it's a unique journey. Um, I was an elementary education major, and I took one special education class. And I was gonna go into a classroom with neurodiverse students, taking one class. And something lit an interest in me, and I jumped into getting my master's right after that, and got it in students with disabilities from NYU. Graduated, the next day started becoming a special education teacher teaching, and loved it. I did that for 14 years. I was a special education teacher, um, an assistant director of special education in the number one school district in the US, and what I realized going into administration was there was so much red tape. I felt like I was kind of moving away from what I really wanted to do. So fast-forward, I moved, got life coached, and then a friend of mine recommended ADHD coaching. Got certified, became an ADHD coach, and six months later realized I had ADHD this whole time. [laughs]

    3. AP

      [laughs] I mean, it's an incredible story and an incredible mission. And to have that goal of reaching a billion people-

    4. BS

      Yeah

    5. AP

      ... like, that's-

    6. BS

      Yeah

    7. AP

      ... that's, that's unbelievable. I mean, the amount of good that's gonna happen. From your experience up to this point, like coaching the amount of people that you have done,

  4. 5:15 – 6:52

    The main ADHD struggles (and how to solve them)

    1. AP

      what do you think are the main problems that are affecting the lives of people with ADHD?

    2. BS

      Managing not only themselves, but especially in adulthood, now you're expected to manage being an adult, manage a career, manage a household, manage children, when you're barely managing yourself because you've never learned the tools. So I'd say that that's usually the number one thing that I find-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. BS

      ... in the clients I work with. Yeah

    5. AP

      It's exhausting just hearing you sort of go through that list.

    6. BS

      Yeah. You work so hard. No one teaches you how to adult.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. BS

      No- And if you don't know you have ADHD as a child, you're not learning those tools then. And then-You become an adult, you have to learn how to be- become an adult, you have to be independent, and then you have to be interdependent with your spouse. And then you have to teach your children how to be independent as well. There's a lot there

    9. AP

      Mm. I mean, there's so mu- so much shame, I think, associated with going through so much of your life as a child, as a teenager, as an early adult, and not understanding why you struggle to do so many things that society has made you think should be totally doable.

    10. BS

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      And you see other people sort of gliding through life, achieving things with apparent ease, and you can't understand why simple tasks are so challenging for you. And I think that creates so much shame, and I suppose therefore the question is,

  5. 6:52 – 12:44

    Positives and negatives of a diagnosis

    1. AP

      like, what do you think are the repercussions of not getting a diagnosis or not becoming aware that you have ADHD?

    2. BS

      I definitely wanna answer that, and I just, also, if it's okay, wanna share that thing exactly happened to me. So I was diagnosed with auditory processing disorder when I was a child and received speech for that, was declassified. Then my mom was an educator, and she saw that my reading was slower. I don't know if I had a reading disability, learning disability, but she got me extended time because there was a discrepancy in my reading. Then I had anxiety. I saw a therapist [laughs] on and off my whole life. So to answer your question, we spend so much time trying, and, and resources and money, trying to figure out our brain, and first we're living in the neurotypical world, being told to use a planner, do the neurotypical things, and it's not working. And sometimes we're being misdiagnosed with these other disorders-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. BS

      ... and we're trying to treat them, but our anxiety is still there, right? Even with all the medication and all the talk therapy, the anxiety's still there. So a lot of clients, and myself too, um, feel like we've wasted time, resources, efforts. And then of course, that leads to the shame that you're mentioning-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. BS

      ... the intrusive thoughts. But on the flip side, there is hope with that because you can reprogram your brain, neuroplasticity, and it takes time, and it takes hope, and a diagnosis can give you all of that too.

    7. AP

      This is so interesting, and I think you explained that perfectly. It, it's the biggest... We spend so much time pre-diagnosis, pre-awareness, trying to turn us into a neurotypical. It's, you know, and, and you said the notebook there, it's one of the biggest lies people with ADHD tell ourselves sometimes is that-

    8. BS

      Yeah

    9. AP

      ... a new notebook is gonna solve all our problems.

    10. BS

      Right. [laughs]

    11. AP

      Um, but it doesn't. [laughs]

    12. BS

      Yeah, exactly.

    13. AP

      Um, and if someone's listening and they're not quite there yet, if they're thinking, "Do I have ADHD, do I not?" Like, what do you think are some common signs, um, of someone having ADHD? Maybe some common ones and maybe not so common ones.

    14. BS

      Hypersensitivity, extreme sensitivity to things. Um, not being able to do the neurotypical tools and recommendations that are out there. Um, being slower to process things. Having anxiety and going to talk therapy, taking medication-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. BS

      ... but still having anxiety and walking out of an office feeling more anxious than when you came in. Hyper-focusing on the thing that's interesting and having such disdain for the things that aren't interesting.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. BS

      Not being able to start those uninteresting things, not being able to end those uninteresting things. Maybe doing well in school, because ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence, but just getting to the answer quickly and not showing your work as a student. I see that in my stepsons.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. BS

      And I s- also have seen it in all the students that I've worked with. So, um, getting to the answer but not being able to explain the process.

    21. AP

      Yes. I think people with ADHD are very good at solving problems, but please don't ask me to show my workings.

    22. BS

      Don't. [laughs]

    23. AP

      I have no idea how I worked that out-

    24. BS

      Right

    25. AP

      ... but I did it. [laughs]

    26. BS

      But I promise you it's right. [laughs]

    27. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    28. BS

      I didn't cheat.

    29. AP

      Yes.

    30. BS

      I swear.

  6. 12:44 – 14:39

    The differences between female ADHD and male ADHD

    1. AP

      From your experience, do you think there's a difference in how ADHD men and ADHD women experience the experience of living with adult ADHD?

    2. BS

      So adult, adult ADHD, women are expected to be the CEO of the household. I think it just kind of is. And we put that expectation on ourselves as well. And if we're at 5% battery, we're not going to put that on ourselves. We're gonna give it back to our kids, our husband, our work, all of the laundry, the household things. So yes, I think, um, for a woman, we continue to outdo ourselves, um, have difficulty letting it be, um, we're people pleasers by nature or perfectionists. So there's chronic burnout that I see, especially in women-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. BS

      ... as adults. And then of course, you have all the hormones on top of that.

    5. AP

      Sure. And that cycle of burnout, which I think you really explained perfectly then, it's like that overworking, whether that's at work or in the household, and then you don't realize that you're giving so much of your mental capacity to just day-to-day tasks and masking.

    6. BS

      Absolutely.

    7. AP

      So I think so many women don't realize how much they're masking, like pretending to be someone that they're not in order to fit in-

    8. BS

      Yeah

    9. AP

      ... um, and to be liked-

    10. BS

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... or to not offend anyone.

    12. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AP

      And then you get home after a long day of doing that, and it's no surprise that you're absolutely exhausted.

    14. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AP

      And then a big row happens with your partner because you don't have the, the-

    16. BS

      You don't have the bandwidth

    17. AP

      ... the capacity to, to, to, to speak.

    18. BS

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      Like how do you see ADHD presenting problems in women specifically as, as they sort of go through life

  7. 14:39 – 16:41

    Specific challenges for ADHD women

    1. AP

      without the awareness that they have ADHD?

    2. BS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, [sighs] of course, we mask. Uh, we wanna fit in. We wanna look like from the outside, um, everything is okay. We are put together. Um, we want to run the household. We want to be successful in our relationships. And with women who have ADHD and don't know it, very often that turns into self-esteem issues, anxiety, depression, and it's because we don't have a lens to what's happening, so we beat ourselves up or we're being told these negative messages before, 20,000 or negative-

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm

    4. BS

      ... messages before the age of 10, and this is boys and girls at that age. But, um, we are at a point as adults with a later diagnosis where there's a lot more work to do, a lot more time to be spent, a lot more, um, negative self-esteem.

    5. AP

      Mm. It's heartbreaking, that 20,000 negative messages, extra negative messages that people with ADHD are exposed to in their-

    6. BS

      Yeah

    7. AP

      ... early years.

    8. BS

      Yeah.

    9. AP

      You know, comments like, "Stop fidgeting. Stop being lazy. You're so sensitive. Why can't you just start the task?"

    10. BS

      I've gotten, "You're so sensitive" from my family members. Like-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. BS

      ... "Why are you so sensitive?" I don't know. Maybe I should stop being so sensitive. Okay. Now, I talk to my family members and I'm like, "Yeah, I know I'm sensitive, and I wanna tell you how I feel about this."

    13. AP

      Mm-hmm. I mean, it's incredible to hear that so many women now are getting answers and finally becoming aware that they're not broken, they're just different, and that they have always been enough.

    14. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AP

      80 per- 85% of the viewers, listeners of this podcast are women.

    16. BS

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      I think they come to the podcast to hear people like yourself add color and context to a lifetime of being misunderstood.

  8. 16:41 – 19:48

    The anger of a late diagnosis

    1. AP

      But do you think there's a, a valid resentment amongst women, um, who are getting a diagnosis or becoming aware slightly later in life that they have been let down?

    2. BS

      Definitely. I mean, we've thought we were broken for a long time. We were never good enough. And of course, we felt alone. And then getting that diagnosis was a lens, way more than a label, right? And gave us the understanding that it was the ADHD the whole time, and we have a thing, right, that we can work through and understand, and a community and hope.

    3. AP

      Mm. Why do you think it takes or took women, and still takes women longer to get a diagnosis? Why is the average age of a woman significantly higher, do you think, than a man still?

    4. BS

      I think it's a masking still. And as a former special education teacher, most of the diagnoses were in school. And the typical boy in the classroom is a hyperactive boy who calls out, can't sit still, um, you know, interrupts. But the girls do their best to hold it in, right? So then we have racing thoughts. Then we have, um, you know, all of this overwhelm inside our body. It's a psychosomatic feeling that we let out when we get home, and that turns into anxiety and depression. So-I think that's part of the reason why girls are not diagnosed as quickly as boys. And then once adulting happens and hormones change and we realize it's even more difficult to manage, there wasn't even an adult diagnosis of ADHD in the UK s- until 2008.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. BS

      And then in America, it wasn't until 1994. And then people didn't even know about ADHD, a lot of people, until 2020, right? Or they just categorize it as the boy who is hyperactive.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. BS

      I remember my mom, when I realized I had ADHD, she goes, "But you always look..." And this is a teacher, a former teacher, "You always look like you're paying attention-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. BS

      ... and you're shaking your head, and you're giving me eye contact, and saying yes." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm... But I, I'm not processing what you're saying."

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. BS

      So-

    13. AP

      So interesting. I, I, I'm f- I got my diagnosis at 34, and it, it, I realized that eye contact was masking. Like I say, you can either have my perfect eye contact or my undivided attention, but you can't have both.

    14. BS

      Yes, and that's why it's so important for adults who have children to not force them to make eye contact.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. BS

      Because if they're making eye contact, first of all, it gives, it can give them f- a lot of anxiety, and they might have a more difficult time paying attention to what you're actually saying-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. BS

      ... because they're reading your face, they're reading the emotions, and they can shut down. So never make someone make eye contact.

  9. 19:48 – 20:59

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

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  10. 20:59 – 21:51

    Later life stumbling blocks for ADHD adults

    1. AP

      the show. Moving on from then, like, what do you think are the main stumbling blocks, um, in later life with, w- for someone who has ADHD?

    2. BS

      Managing a household-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. BS

      ... having a healthy relationship, um, being able to create your own structure in your life without having the external structure from work, um, being able to pay your bills on time, not because you don't have the money, but because-

    5. AP

      Yeah [laughs]

    6. BS

      ... you forget about them, right? Or you didn't put them on auto pay.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. BS

      Or you'll say you've, you'll get to that later, and it's, you know, the bill is right in front of you, and you look at it every day, and then you stop looking at it, right? Um, or you forget to take out the trash, or, um, and you're just consistently inconsistent.

    9. AP

      Brooke, you mentioned earlier your company has coached 10,000 people with ADHD.

  11. 21:51 – 25:09

    How masking affects ADHD adults

    1. AP

      How do you see masking showing up in the lives of those people?

    2. BS

      Very often in work and social situations, a lot of introverted extroverts or just introverts, um, or social anxiety with ADHD, uh, but being in a social situation and almost imitating the social cues that they get from other people to then figure out how they're going to respond to an interaction. Uh, so very often in social situations, in work, they don't want to be seen as different, so they go along, even in ways where it might not work for their unique learning style or their unique brain. So spending lots of hours after work trying to process everything and do the work because they couldn't focus during work or re- teach it to themselves, getting there early, spending out way more hours than when the custodians show up, and just to function-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. BS

      ... right? And then pretending like everything is okay. So I see that a lot in work.

    5. AP

      So interesting. I thi- I feel like people with ADHD are the world's best actors. We're, we're really good at playing a character called normal.

    6. BS

      Absolutely. [laughs]

    7. AP

      Um, like chameleons, we shape-shift.

    8. BS

      Yeah.

    9. AP

      We can-

    10. BS

      Yep

    11. AP

      ... mirror-

    12. BS

      Yep

    13. AP

      ... people's body language-

    14. BS

      Yep

    15. AP

      ... tone of voice, posture, almost to kind of fit in and, and not get their disapproval.

    16. BS

      Yes.

    17. AP

      We're so aware that we have to be liked at all times, and we're al- almost in autopilot to avoid a criticism or a rejection. So we just-

    18. BS

      Yes

    19. AP

      ... find ourselves constantly becoming the person-

    20. BS

      Yes

    21. AP

      ... that we're talking to.

    22. BS

      People... When I was single, I always said, "I am an amazing first date."

    23. AP

      [laughs]

    24. BS

      People always wanna go on a second date with me because I was able to mask so well. And then on my second date, eh, not so much. [laughs]

    25. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    26. BS

      Same thing with interviews. [laughs]

    27. AP

      And I've heard you u- in the past talk about advanced masking.

    28. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AP

      What's that?

    30. BS

      When someone can be so hyperfocused, here's just an example, in one area of their life, like let's say they're the best CEO of their company, everyone loves them, they're performing, but then their home life is falling apart. Their relationship is falling apart. They can't manage any organization. They're not working out. They're notFilling other cups and areas of their life because they're so burnt out-

  12. 25:09 – 30:07

    3 environmental changes to help ADHD

    1. AP

      How important do you think it is, like, you mentioned environment there. How important do you think it is for someone with ADHD to be operating in a environment that is catered, suitable for their brain?

    2. BS

      Extremely envi- extremely important. If you're not in the right environment for you, that's where the burnout happens. That's where the negative self-talk happens. That's where the negative self-esteem happens.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. BS

      That's where you feel like you're the problem and you have to do everything you can to catch up. That's where your nervous system is dysregulated. That's almost like focusing on your weaknesses and then becoming anxious, stressed, and depressed.

    5. AP

      I mean, it's so relatable. And I think, like, I, I spoke, I've spoken to a lot of people and there seems to be this divide between people with ADHD who it's such a hindrance in their life, and other people with ADHD who seem to be thriving with it, like, doing really interesting things. And I've always put it down to the people who are living with ADHD who are doing well, they've, they've really worked on their self-awareness.

    6. BS

      Yes.

    7. AP

      I think generally, a lot of people with ADHD have low self-awareness because of the masking that we've spoken about.

    8. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AP

      Years of pretending to be someone that they're not, they ultimately end up not really understanding who they really are. And as a consequence of that, they say yes to things that aren't a good fit for them.

    10. BS

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      Relationships, jobs, hobbies that they're probably not actually interested in. They're just doing because short-term dopamine has told them that they, that might be fun.

    12. BS

      Right, that limerence, right? Or feeling like, "If they just do this, this person's gonna like me, and I'm gonna fit in-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. BS

      ... and I'm gonna be neurotypical, and I'm going to just fix myself so they like me."

    15. AP

      Yes.

    16. BS

      So many people, including myself, have been there. "I'm gonna make this person like me. I'm gonna make this person love me, and then everything's gonna be great." But once you drop that, and you have to have real self-awareness, you have to understand your strengths, you have to understand your values, you have to understand your purpose, that doesn't come that easily as a child, right? Our executive functions are at a 30% delay as a child. So once we understand all of that and we create that awareness, then we can start really showing up and building momentum, and then eventually, with accountability and systems and tools that work, that's where the confidence comes in to own your ADHD. But just because you have the diagnosis of ADHD doesn't make you confident.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. BS

      You have to do the work, which is hard.

    19. AP

      Is there anything else someone can do, someone who might be finding their ADHD a hindrance, but wants to turn it into a bit of a, a positive? Like, what can someone do other than working on their self-awareness, something that perhaps hasn't been spoken about so much before?

    20. BS

      Um, leaning into what makes them uniquely them. So find out what, during the day, energizes them.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. BS

      So I know it's probably boring and tedious, but if you can pay attention to what drains you and what energizes you and lean into the things that energize you more, then you can live a more positive, happy life where you feel fulfilled.

    23. AP

      And I guess it's doing all these things, right, to sort of combat the, the probable low self-esteem that that person might have.

    24. BS

      Right. And I think anyone in life, if you lean into the things that energize y- yourself, that is... Like, if you do things that make you happy over and over again-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. BS

      ... that's going to give you self-esteem. It might not be in Dr. Gabor Maté's saying, like, true self-esteem, but no one really has that innate self-esteem. So if you continue to do things that bring you joy over and over again and you continue to work on yourself and create success, you're gonna build your self-esteem.

    27. AP

      Do you think there's a challenge there? Because I feel like lots of people with ADHD, they, they want to do things that they truly enjoy and that will build their self-esteem. But a lot of people are, are living in a fear of rejection and confrontation, and that stops them from taking action towards doing things that will benefit themselves.

    28. BS

      And I think that's where a community comes in. Dr. Hallowell talks about vitamin C, vitamin connect, and we're much stronger when we're with people-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. BS

      ... like us who can get us out of our own comfort zone. And if they're doing challenging things, it's more likely that we're gonna do challenging things too. So that's the benefit of group coaching or a group whatever. Being around people who are similar to you and are doing things that are out of their comfort zone-

  13. 30:07 – 31:38

    How to manage Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria

    1. AP

      In your coaching sessions, like, RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, must be a common recurring topic. Do you have any explanations? Like, or I suppose firstly, how would you describe the feeling of RSD for someone who might not be familiar with it?

    2. BS

      A lot of people talk about, like, that-Punch in their chest

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. BS

      The huge weight of the perceived rejection or actual rejection in the moment, and I also see it as the rejection later on, right? Coming up six months later or years later, "Oh, I said that thing." And it weighs so heavily on us, like it's real, right? The negative sticks so much louder than the positives. So, the, you asked me why the rejection sensitivity is louder for neurodivergents-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. BS

      ... especially ADHD. It is because of those 20,000 negative messages. It is because we haven't had the systems that work for our brain or the awareness that are for our brain. It is because we were meant, we weren't meant, but we were told to do things a certain way, and we tried so hard and failed because we didn't have the right ways of doing it.

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    8. BS

      So, um, we need ways to reframe things, cognitive behavioral therapy, um, understanding how to feel successful by living in our intentions and also when we're living in our intentions and taking action, having the tools for our emotional dysregulation that's gonna come up while we're doing those things.

    9. AP

      Mm.

  14. 31:38 – 33:30

    ADHD medication

    1. AP

      What are your views on ADHD medication?

    2. BS

      I think that the stats say 70 to 80% of people who take ADHD medication, it works for. It might take two to three years for it to work, which can be really hard for people with ADHD who want it to work right away and to go through that trial and error process. And I also think with medication, we have to try the behavioral strategies first, especially with children. So pills don't teach skills. We wanna make sure that we have the tools, and medication is one of those tools. And the best hierarchy to improve your overall executive function and emotional regulation are the behavioral skills, the medication.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. BS

      Those two things work together the best, uh, doctors have shared. But medication doesn't work for everyone, and it's not for everyone, so it's really important to speak to your doctor and make sure that you do have those behavioral tools first.

    5. AP

      What's an example of a behavioral tool that someone could-

    6. BS

      Like understanding what your priorities are, how to prioritize, how to make decisions with confidence and ease.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. BS

      We talked about the Netflix example, right, of what show should I watch. I mean, our brains are so loud. We can be overwhelmed and burned out from decision-making. So we need to be able to thrive, not only function day to day, and medication is only good for while it's in your body, but it's not gonna tell you what to focus on. It's not gonna tell you how to prioritize. It's not gonna tell you, you know, what your goals are and what your values are and what your strengths are and how do, where your optimal focus time is. You need all of those things on top of medication.

  15. 33:30 – 36:48

    ADHD and sleep tips

    1. AP

      What about sleep? Because I feel like a lot of people with ADHD do struggle to wind down.

    2. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      Um, when their head hits the pillow, the racing thoughts can come, and they can really struggle to, to, to fall asleep.

    4. BS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AP

      Do you have any tips on what someone could do to maybe impro- improve their sleep?

    6. BS

      Besides all the things that you typically hear, one of the best things I've heard was we need stimulation before bed.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. BS

      So that could be washing the dishes. That could be doing laundry. That could be tidying up. But we don't want to overstimulate ourselves, or else that's going to keep us up, right, and we're gonna have our second wind. So light stimulation. Another thing that's helpful, and other sleep doctors will disagree, but for people with ADHD, watching the show that's boring or that's predictable so you don't have to overthink it before you go to bed, that could be your stimulation. Um, I interviewed the sleep doctor on Successful with ADHD, and he told me, above everything, don't prioritize so much about what you're gonna do before you go to sleep. We overthink sleeping, right?

    9. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    10. BS

      We get anxious about trying to fall asleep. So if we think less about it, that can actually help us. I had a client one time who, who wouldn't go to bed before 1:00, and she's like, "I tried the white noise. I tried the air conditioning. I tried the blackout shades. I tried the weighted blanket." I was like, "Okay, great. Have you ever tried not thinking about anything regarding sleep and just going to sleep?" And I swear to God, she now goes to bed at 11:00, and she goes, "I thought you were crazy when you told me that, but that has worked." Another thing is staying asleep. When you wake up in the middle of the night with that random thing that pops in your head-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. BS

      ... have the notebook so you can just write it down so you don't forget it. And then if you really can't fall asleep, count back from 100 and try to fall asleep that way. Another suggestion is if you really can't go back to sleep at 3:00 AM or whatever, leave the room. Don't put so much pressure on yourself. Eventually, you're gonna get tired. It might not be that day, but the next day you're going to fall asleep at some point. So if we could put less pressure on our sleep, it's a lot easier to maintain systems.

    13. AP

      Mm. I think it was Ned Halliwell who described similar to what you're saying about moving, get- getting out of bed. Like, he, he called it state change. Like, s- change your literal state. Don't lie in bed-

    14. BS

      Correct

    15. AP

      ... worrying about not being able to sleep.

    16. BS

      Correct.

    17. AP

      Get up. Go into another room. Do something else-

    18. BS

      Yes

    19. AP

      ... and then come back to it.

    20. BS

      Yes. Don't associate your lack of sleep with bed.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. BS

      Leave your bed. Go somewhere else, and if you can't fall back asleep, okay.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. BS

      Don't go back to sleep, but the next night, eventually, your melatonin is going to, and your sleep cycles will add up-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. BS

      ... and you willNot necessarily catch up on sleep, but your sleep cycles will have a rhythm again

    27. AP

      Your podcast is called Successful With ADHD, and you've interviewed-

    28. BS

      You

    29. AP

      ... hun- yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    30. BS

      [laughs]

  16. 36:48 – 37:32

    How to be successful with ADHD

    1. AP

      Out of the people who have been, quote-unquote, successful and, and the ones that are probably still struggling and finding it more of a hindrance, what are the people who are, say, finding success with it doing differently?

    2. BS

      They are aware of how their unique brain works, and they're leaning into their creativity, their strengths, not listening to other people saying, "Oh, you can't do that as a professional," or, "You can't do this every day." They're actually leaning into it and hyper-focusing on that and making careers out of it, making, um, lives out of it, so leaning into their strengths.

    3. AP

      Truly inspiring, Brooke. Um, I could talk to you all day. Thank you so, so much.

    4. BS

      Absolutely.

    5. AP

      Before I move on to the Agony Aunt section,

  17. 37:32 – 38:58

    Brooke’s ADHD item

    1. AP

      I wanna reveal your ADHD item-

    2. BS

      Okay

    3. AP

      ... which has been patiently waiting underneath that cloth for the entire interview. I'm gonna lean forward and reveal it now.

    4. BS

      Dun-da-na-na. [laughs]

    5. AP

      Right. That is a... Now, I think you said it's a fanny pack.

    6. BS

      Fanny pack.

    7. AP

      Fanny pack. What's, wha-

    8. BS

      [laughs]

    9. AP

      Firstly, what is a fanny pack?

    10. BS

      [laughs]

    11. AP

      'Cause I don't know what that is, and what-

    12. BS

      Ev-

    13. AP

      Why does it represent ADHD?

    14. BS

      [laughs]

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. BS

      A fanny pack goes around your waist. Some people wear it across their shoulder. But I, my mystery object was a pocketbook of some sort, right? And the reason why is because in my pocketbook, and many people I know, there's receipts, there's lipstick stains, there's water, there's apples, there's chocolate. So there's the things you don't need. There's the things you do need that have been there forever, some of the things that you need right now. And it weighs on us, right? And ADHD is all about accessing the things we need, even in our chaotic brain.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. BS

      So we still might have the receipts from 20 years ago, but if we can access the lipstick or acc- access our phone when we need it, um, then we can lean into organizing our life with our ADHD.

    19. AP

      Really useful. It's an analogy and also a, a life hack, [laughs] an ADHD hack.

    20. BS

      Yeah.

    21. AP

      So there's two birds with one stone.

    22. BS

      Absolutely.

  18. 38:58 – 40:54

    The ADHD agony aunt

    1. AP

      Penultimately to the ADHD Agony Aunt section-

    2. BS

      Oh, okay

    3. AP

      ... which is where a member of the audience sends in a question, and it goes in the washing machine of woes.

    4. BS

      Oh, whoa.

    5. AP

      It's called the washing machine of woes because-

    6. BS

      Woes me

    7. AP

      ... a washing machine is my item. Yes.

    8. BS

      [laughs]

    9. AP

      Yes, essentially. Um, because I always leave my clothes in the laundry after the cycle finishes, and I always-

    10. BS

      And then do another cycle-

    11. AP

      Exactly

    12. BS

      ... the next day.

    13. AP

      Yeah.

    14. BS

      Okay.

    15. AP

      More ADHD ticks-

    16. BS

      Yeah

    17. AP

      ... more money I have-

    18. BS

      Yeah, yeah

    19. AP

      ... to spend on-

    20. BS

      Yeah.

    21. AP

      Do you do, do you leave your clothes in the machine?

    22. BS

      Remember I have five people in my family, so yeah.

    23. AP

      Gosh, chaotic.

    24. BS

      Yes, very chaotic.

    25. AP

      But nice to feel like I'm not alone-

    26. BS

      [laughs]

    27. AP

      ... and I'm not the only person who does it.

    28. BS

      Mounds of clothing-

    29. AP

      Yeah

    30. BS

      ... everywhere.

  19. 40:54 – 42:00

    3 rules to live by

    1. AP

      Just finally, I want to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest-

    2. BS

      Ooh

    3. AP

      ... where they wrote their three rules to live by.

    4. BS

      Okay.

    5. AP

      And I'm going to deliver it to you now, Brooke.

    6. BS

      Ooh. Thank you. To the next guest, think about what you wanna do to change. Choose to advocate instead of change. Two, use your creativity and change the environment. It may be them, not you. Yes. Three, unmasking takes years. Try to enjoy it. It might be them, not you. That resonates so much.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. BS

      And until we understand ourselves and we get that s- confidence and you build momentum through that 1% action and feel confident and less alone, we always think we're the problem.

    9. AP

      Yeah.

    10. BS

      Right?

    11. AP

      Truly fascinating. Yeah.

    12. BS

      I love that.

    13. AP

      Once again, Brooke, thank you so much. I know you've come a long way to be here today. So on behalf of everyone grappling to understand their brains, thank you so much.

    14. BS

      Thank you for having me, Alex. It's a pleasure. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 42:00

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