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Trauma Expert: 3 Oddly Specific ADHD Trauma Issues

Ella McCrystal is a psychotherapist and trauma specialist who helps people understand how early life experiences shape the nervous system, self-worth, relationships, and the way we move through the world. Together we explore the hidden link between ADHD, trauma, masking, rejection sensitivity (RSD), and why so many people with ADHD feel like they have to become someone else just to be accepted. We also discuss how trauma can make ADHD symptoms feel even more overwhelming, why masking is often a survival response, and what healing can actually look like. If you've ever wondered who you really are beneath the mask, this episode is for you. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 01:16 How do you separate who you are from who you've had to become to survive? 04:02 The childhood experiences that teach people to mask 13:18 Why ADHD can make you more vulnerable to abuse 17:10 How trauma can intensify rejection sensitivity (RSD) 21:29 Why rejection hurts people with ADHD so deeply 23:49 How to calm your nervous system when RSD is triggered 30:07 Tiimo advert 31:26 Is masking actually a survival response? 36:01 What happens when you finally stop masking 37:55 Why masking leaves so many people feeling lonely 40:42 How to find your people and stop feeling alone 44:32 The one thing people with ADHD need to stop apologising for 47:53 The biggest lie people with ADHD have been taught about themselves 52:11 The message every person with ADHD needs to hear 54:05 A letter to my younger self Visit Ella’s website 👉 https://ellamccrystal.com Find Ella on Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/ellamccrystal/ Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Order Alex’s latest book about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 👉 https://linktr.ee/adhdchatter?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=9ffd8709-06df-444c-9936-c136fbd14d6e Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Ella McCrystalguestAlex Partridgehost
Jun 29, 202655mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:16

    Trailer

    1. EM

      A lot of high-functioning women with ADHD that are late diagnosed spend their lives masking. From the outside, it doesn't look like there's much wrong. So as soon as you stop masking, uh-oh, the real me's gonna be revealed, and the real me was the one that was told, "You're too lazy, too noisy, too late." You stop trusting yourself, so you're more likely to be able to be vulnerable to manipulation, abuse, and coercion.

    2. AP

      Do you think if you experience the horrific abuse that you went through, do you think that makes a very nasty version of RSD?

    3. EM

      If I feel like I'm not pleasing somebody, they're gonna be unhappy with me, and there's a consequence to that. It's not just about rejection, interestingly enough. It's about being perceived as a problem.

    4. AP

      How do you separate who you are from who you've had to become to survive?

    5. EM

      So-

    6. AP

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] I recently met an ADHD woman at an event, and she asked me a question that I can't stop thinking

  2. 1:16 – 4:02

    How do you separate who you are from who you've had to become to survive?

    1. AP

      about. She said, "How do you separate who you are from who you've had to become to survive?" When you hear that question, what comes up for you, and how does that relate to your personal experience with ADHD and trauma?

    2. EM

      [clears throat] That's a very good one, and it's a great one to start with as well. So I'm gonna try and answer this without complicating it, which will be very difficult. When you're born, you're born without an identity. Obviously, there's genetic expression and all of that stuff, but you're pretty much this core self, a being of light, and you're shaped by your environment, your relationships, what you see, what you experience. [smacks lips] So your identity is largely based on who you're around, social circles, et cetera, et cetera. As we're forming our sense of self when we're developing, our neurons are firing and wiring together, and they join through an electrical pulse, and with every thought we have, there's like a chemical cascade in the body that we call the emotion, and then that gets stored as the cellular software. And it starts to operate the mind, so we become bottom-up instead of top-down eventually. And so the unconscious or the soma, the brain body system, is now working on this cellular software that's been given to us by our experiences, our relational experiences, our environment. [smacks lips] But just like a computer, as soon as we realize that we're in this programming, we can start to understand that we can change it. So our identity is based on that chemical experience, that cellular software, and that's the energy that we put out into the world. So it's the feedback loop that we get as well.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. EM

      So we kind of get stuck in this repetition compulsion, both from a sort of psychological point of view and an energetic point of view as well. So to separate it is to understand that we all start off as this being of light, and it's simply the, I guess you could call it the simulation, where we get this feedback from everything around us, and we are a product of that. So you separate it by understanding it first, and then you start to design what you would like to be. And I said on a, a podcast once before, and a girl that became a client of mine after I did this podcast last time, and I'd said it in that podcast that if you're gonna live in the Matrix, you may as well design it. And I believe that firmly, that once you wi- understand what your identity is and why it's there in the first place, and that it's really not who you are, it's what you've experienced, you can start to work on designing a new identity, and that's the bit that takes time. It's not overnight, but it's important that you know that it's possible.

    5. AP

      So you're born, and you've got a certain amount of light to

  3. 4:02 – 13:18

    The childhood experiences that teach people to mask

    1. AP

      you.

    2. EM

      Yes.

    3. AP

      What experiences could a typical ADHD child experience that might dim that light?

    4. EM

      Again, I mean, this is, uh, true in both trauma and ADHD, [smacks lips] that there's a sense of hypervigilance when you're constantly made to feel that you're too lazy, you're not paying attention enough, you're too hyperactive, you know, all of these things that people are told over and over again when they're undiagnosed. They learn to see themselves as too much or too little. So abuse, bullying, not being understood, the way that that affects your relationships with your parents, with your friends, with your teachers, it will start to chip away at that light. And, you know, eventually you'll start to believe it because, especially up until the age of seven when you've got no fusion of the prefrontal cortex, y- you absorb everything as though it's fact. There's no filter. You can't filter that out. So all of those neurons that are wiring together are wiring together around what you're told about yourself. So you only have to think about the girl that's maybe a bit of a dreamer and, you know, jumping around and dressing up, and perhaps she struggles to get her shoes on in time to go to school, and she's told off every day because she's holding everybody else up. Over time, that wires in as you're the problem.

    5. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EM

      So that takes away some of that light, and it makes that child feel responsible for everybody else, and there the problem begins. So there's one example of how it can dim your light.

    7. AP

      And you're clearly v- hugely passionate about this topic, and that comes across straight away when you just listen to you speaking about it for, for, for 5 or 10 minutes.

    8. EM

      Yeah.

    9. AP

      I mean, where does that passion come from?

    10. EM

      Certainly from being undiagnosed myself for the majority of my life. It was only a few years ago, I'm 47, to give time reference, that I got diagnosed, but also having that history of, um, which I talked about on your last podcast, um, of being sexually abused by my dad and, you know, having my family sort of create the narrative to protect him. Um, he For those that didn't watch that last one, he was i- in prison for a period of time after admitting guilt, which is extremely rare, by the way. When someone sexually abuses a child, they very rarely admit guilt, but he did. Um, he went to prison, and then Mum moved him back into the home afterwards. And I think, um, being ADHD as well, I know that I cried a lot, and I know that I was very repetitive. So if I wanted to do something, I wanted to do it again and again and again. If I wanted to watch something, I wanted to watch it again and again and again.

    11. AP

      Mm. Yes.

    12. EM

      I was highly emotional-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. EM

      ... and highly obsessive, and I think I was too much for my mum, even before she realized what was going on with my dad. I think she found me to be, uh, too m- In fact, I spoke about this to one of my mum's friend after I did this podcast, and she'd watched the podcast, and she said, "Do you know what? I think if your m- mum had known that you had ADHD, it would've made so much difference to how she treated you." And I don't think it would've done. I don't think my mum was equipped to deal with me. I think I was too much for her. I don't blame myself for that. I just don't think she had the skillset to manage a child that was so, um... I lived in dreamland. I, I was like a little, I believed in fairies and all the things that little girls should be allowed to believe in. But I think that, alongside not being able to regulate emotion, crying every five minutes, um, and then being obsessed with things and needing the same thing over and over again, and then on top of that, finding out that my dad had been sexually abusing me, and I was the one to reveal that, I think that was way too much for her, and she just made me the scapegoat in the family. So it was very much, and I know a lot of people that haven't had that type of trauma, that are ADHD and are very hyper with it or very perceived as difficult with it, they are made the scapegoat.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. EM

      And they become the receptive container for everybody else's frustrations. That in itself is a trauma-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. EM

      ... because you will self-abandon, and you will feel like nobody understands you, and you will go into the world carrying that. And that's why we see all the sort of habits of masking and being the chameleon and all those things, which can be gifts as well as a curse, start to come into play.

    19. AP

      You said you thought you, that you were too much for your, for your mother.

    20. EM

      Yeah.

    21. AP

      And, and that you referenced maybe the, the crying.

    22. EM

      Yeah.

    23. AP

      W- was there any other behavior that made you think that you thought you were too much for your mum?

    24. EM

      I think just, um, I'm probably quite relentless, which has served me well in my career. Um, I think, I mean, she used to do this thing where [laughs] she was, it was quite fun, I liked it anyway, where she'd do magic tricks.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. EM

      But I think the fact that I needed her to do that 150 times before I was satisfied-

    27. AP

      [laughs] Sure

    28. EM

      ... might have been too much for her.

    29. AP

      [laughs]

    30. EM

      So I think I just couldn't leave it, in, in the way that my brother and sister could probably, you know, have it done five or six times. However, I do actually think they're both on the spectrum. My brother definitely is dyslexic and ADHD, I'm sure of it, j- just undiagnosed, and I think my sister is more what would've been ADD.

  4. 13:18 – 17:10

    Why ADHD can make you more vulnerable to abuse

    1. AP

      I've always wrestled with the question, Ella, like, do the traits of ADHD or autism or both, or ADHD, like, do they make you more vulnerable to trauma or in particularly, um, abuse?

    2. EM

      Yes.

    3. AP

      Uh, and do you think your early traits might have played a part or made you vulnerable or susceptible to what happened to you?

    4. EM

      Yes. Not so much with my dad, so I'm gonna answer that in two sections. The first is, does it make people more vulnerable? That's a definite yes, and I'll tell you why in a moment. The second is, has it made me more vulnerable? I think ADHD, yes. Again, going back to the, the sexual trauma with my dad, that elevated those ADHD vulnerabilities as well. Um, because I was later raped on two different occasions, one when I was 13 by a 20-year-old, and one when I was 17 by two men at the same time, which I've spoken about a lot. The reason I share those bits is because that is separate from being sexually abused in the home, and so I can sort of explain how that makes women and men more vulnerable. So if you think about it, from especially undiagnosed, 'cause a lot of us have been late diagnosed.

    5. AP

      Sure.

    6. EM

      So from the age of maybe four, five, maybe even younger, you're told you're a problem, and you're told that you have a, a problem relating to your brothers and sisters or the people in the class. In fact, you may be taken out of the classroom a lot because you're too much for the teacher or you're too distracting for the other students. So your self-perception is greatly altered from a really early age. You see yourself as less than, and you stop trusting yourself as well. Because obviously, you know, if you're five, six, seven, maybe even a bit older, and you're constantly told that you're too lazy, you're too noisy, you're too late, or, you know, you're too, uh, obsessed-

    7. AP

      Yes

    8. EM

      ... whatever it is, you stop trusting yourself. So when other people are manipulating you or telling you things about yourself, particularly if we look at things like coercive abuse or manipulation, you don't trust yourself anymore, so you're more likely to be able to be vulnerable to manipulation, abuse, and coercion. Um, and one of the things that I think when you've got the trauma of, of being abused, neglected, bullied, on top of being ADHD as a child, is that you have poor boundaries because you can't... I think with the executive function issues, you can't always read boundaries well anyway, and also the, the emotional dysregulation is sometimes confused for intuition, so you, you, you're never trusting your, your system to be able to read the room properly. So for example, when I was raped at 13, it was a, I was at a f- at a friend's house, it was an older brother. I didn't read any signals because I, maybe because I'd been sexually abused by my dad, I didn't know what safety looked like anyway, but also with executive dysfunction and emotional dysregulation, was I able to read signals well anyway? Being later, you know, being raped at 17 by, by two men, I was walking home with someone I considered to be safe. Turns out I didn't read the... I'm not saying this is my fault either, by the way-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. EM

      ... but I didn't understand the red flags.

    11. AP

      Sure.

    12. EM

      I didn't notice them, and I don't know if that's 'cause I didn't trust myself, and I always assumed responsibility for, you know, again, some of those things I've spoken about. Maybe I'm too much, maybe I'm, uh, too noisy, maybe I'm too loud, maybe it's my fault, maybe I, maybe I was too flirty, maybe I didn't, didn't understand that he was dangerous because I'm an idiot, and I know I'm an idio- idiot because I've been told my whole entire life that, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm bad or I'm naughty or I'm too much. So I think those things make you more

  5. 17:10 – 21:29

    How trauma can intensify rejection sensitivity (RSD)

    1. EM

      vulnerable.

    2. AP

      Do you think if you experience the horrific ab- abuse that you went through, uh, on top of that, you are exposed towards many of those corrective messages you've just said as well, you're too much, you're not enough, all of that horrendous stuff. Do you think that makes a very nasty version of RSD? Because I suppose you've been criticized so many times, but also your physical boundaries have been rejected in that moment of trauma.

    3. EM

      Yeah. I, I, I often say, specifically with my dad, I felt responsible for him. I might have said this on the last episode, I'm not sure. I felt responsible for him because as a child, when you're being sexually abused, you can't use rational thinking and analysis, which again, often goes offline with ADHD anyway, in an emotional situation. And so if my dad would say to me, you know- N- no one can hear about this because they wouldn't understand. And then I, I would be able to pick up even quite early on, I think, I was able to pick up that he felt guilty about what he was doing. He wouldn't necessarily say that. And without being too graphic, in the, in the actual physical abuse going on, I wouldn't have said that guilt was there, but immediately afterwards I would sense his guilt and shame.

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. EM

      And I felt that I had to make him feel better. So that became my job, to make sure he was okay. So in terms of rejection sensitivity, for me personally, and I'm sure for many other people, if I feel like I'm not pleasing somebody or doing the best that I can do, I feel a great deal of responsibility for how they feel. And if they don't feel good, they're gonna be unhappy with me, and there's a consequence to that, which is they're gonna judge me and I'm gonna be pushed out. I'm gonna be the problem, which is what I think a lot of people with rejection sensitivity feel. They feel like it's not just about rejection, interestingly enough, it's about being perceived as a problem-

    6. AP

      Mm. Yes

    7. EM

      ... being perceived as less than, being perceived as being the responsible one, being perceived as the cause of chaos. And therefore, primitively, I think we all assume that if we're perceived that way, we're going to be pushed out of the clan, or of the pack, or of the family, or of the group, and then we're on our own again. And because we feel like, you know, we're probably different anyway, 'cause we don't know we've got ADHD or autism at the time, to be pushed out would be even worse.

    8. AP

      Mm.

    9. EM

      So I do think it, it, it heightens that sense of responsibility because, you know, especially if you're abused as a child, but even as an adult, if you're raped as an adult, you go through, which at 17 I guess I was more towards the adult end of, of my life, but you go through all of the things that you did that created the problem. It's just a natural response. For me it was, and I know for many others, was it 'cause of what I wore? Was it because of how I behaved? And so you're constantly second-guessing yourself. And with rejection sensitivity, we, anyone that's had it, it is just an overwhelming physical response in the body. It feels like a sucker punch. It feels like this emotional fire. And I always say it's like, you know when a smoke alarm goes off? I don't know if you've used this metaphor, but it makes sense for me. When the smoke alarm goes off because there's a fire, it's great, because everyone's aware that there's a fire, but if it's burnt toast and the smoke alarm goes off, it's just annoying. And I feel like that's what RSD is.

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. EM

      You're constantly like-

    12. AP

      Yes

    13. EM

      ... the burnt toast instead of the fire-

    14. AP

      Mm

    15. EM

      ... but the alarm's going off anyway, and you're going... You're flooded completely with this sense of, "I've got to fix this. I've got to make this right," and it's panic. It's panic stations immediately, and it's engulfing and overwhelming. And I do think that the combination of abuse or bullying, as well as ADHD and autism, creates a super-duper alarm, where the toast isn't even in the toaster and the alarm's-

    16. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    17. EM

      ... going off, you know?

    18. AP

      Mm.

    19. EM

      So I think there's levels of it.

    20. AP

      Sure. I had somebody write in, a listener to the podcast, describing RSD, and they said, "It's not just hearing no, it feels like you've been told you're unlovable, unwanted, and fundamentally not enough."

  6. 21:29 – 23:49

    Why rejection hurts people with ADHD so deeply

    1. EM

      Yeah.

    2. AP

      Does rejection hit people with ADHD harder than, than a typical person?

    3. EM

      I think the problem is that you have with the ADHD, so if you think of the brain in two halves, so right side being more emotional, creative, imaginative, and the left side being all the sort of more, uh, analysis, logic, organization. When the executive function isn't working as efficiently as we would like anyway, and then there's this emotional flooding, well, let's say it's hard to remain rational and analytical at the best of times with ADHD. If you're emotionally flooded on the right side and the amygdala's going wild, your left side's completely offline. So when you hear no, you literally cannot rationalize that no. When you feel like you're not pleasing somebody and you sense that they're gonna reject you, you literally can't rationalize it. You immediately go into this sense of, "I'm going to..." It's self-annihilation, really. "I'm, I'm going to be disintegrated. I c- I cannot remain intact." And it does genuinely feel like the world is going to end. And it could be the simplest of things, but it's the sense that it's you that's dysfunctional, it's you that's the problem, it's you that's caused all of this. And, and you can end up hating yourself. And then, um, what happens is because you believe you're gonna be abandoned and rejected, you start unconsciously creating it. That's the, that's the thing where you start to see people becoming more and more, they test people. And the, the way that that affects relationships, colleague relationships with work or intimate relationships, can be catastrophic. And you see so many people with such severe RSD that end up on their own, because what they're doing is they're unconsciously pushing people away because they already predict that that's gonna be the case.

    4. AP

      So I wrote a book about rejection sensitivity, uh, and I've spoken to many people who have experienced it and understand it, but I've yet to find a solution or a, a practical advice that actually soothes it in the moment. Like, there's quite a lot of long-term strategies after the trigger, after the event, after the deep emotional rage and sadness, where you can name it and hold it out in front

  7. 23:49 – 30:07

    How to calm your nervous system when RSD is triggered

    1. AP

      of you and de-power it. But have you got any practical tips for actually soothing it in the moment when RSD is triggered?

    2. EM

      Yeah, I mean, I personally use this one, and I do try to get other people to use it as well. So there's four steps to it. One is, the first point is to pause, because everyone knows that. It's not brand-new information. But if you feel- In the moment that you're being rejected, and it feels like that smoke alarm's going off, the toast isn't even in the toaster, the alarm's gone off-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. EM

      ... and you feel reactive or, or just deeply wounded, pause. Next step is to concentrate on the breathing. Everybody knows that step, nothing new. But I love the parasympathetic sigh, which came from, the first time I heard about it was Huberman. The two breaths in through the nose, the first being slightly shorter than the second, and then out. Um, the next step though, and I try and do this with the breathing, is bilateral tapping. So the bilateral tapping is really useful because it brings in the right side of the brain and the left side of the brain, and it integrates the two hemispheres, which really helps with the conscious critical faculty. So in other words, you stop overthinking. So if you're breathing, doing the two in and the one out, bilaterally tapping. The other thing is after maybe 30 seconds of that, is to do forwards backwards counting. Now, this is to confuse your brain and to give your brain a gap, 'cause remember I said a minute ago, when the right side is flooded with emotion-

    5. AP

      Yes

    6. EM

      ... the left side goes off.

    7. AP

      Okay.

    8. EM

      So we've lost Wi-Fi on the left side.

    9. AP

      Right. [laughs]

    10. EM

      So the breath helps because it brings the oxygen back to the prefrontal cortex, so it allows time for clarity. The bilateral tapping helps 'cause you're bypassing critical faculty. But then the forward backward counting helps because you're giving your brain a real break, and you're forcing it to think about something else. So it goes like this. Instead of going one, two, three, four, you go two one, three two, four three, five four, all the way up to 100. So you, it literally, you have to think about it. It's even difficult for me, and I've done it so many times. You have to concentrate on this forward backward counting. By the time you get to 100, the nervous system has had a, a time to settle a bit, and like I said, that conscious part of your analysis, logic, organization can come back online, and it will give you that little bit of space to now think more clearly about what's happened. So four steps. Pause, breathe, bilaterally tap. If you're on a train or something, you can always tap your legs, so you can do it-

    11. AP

      Right. Sure

    12. EM

      ... so you're not being seen. But I like the butterfly hold, 'cause it feels a bit more self-soothing, and then the forward backward counting up to 100. So you could be sort of taking at least three to four minutes break. That is just enough time to allow you to bring clarity back.

    13. AP

      Wow. I mean, that's incredible. I feel like so much damage is done with an ADHD person, like immediately in that red zone-

    14. EM

      Yes

    15. AP

      ... immediately after the trigger.

    16. EM

      Yes.

    17. AP

      Like in my history, that's, that's when I've relapsed. You know, th- that trigger, that, that deep emotional pain, that rage in response to a real or perceived criticism can be so intense, and actually, that's when I've reached for a drink after years-

    18. EM

      Yes

    19. AP

      ... of sobriety, or that's when somebody has stormed out of the office and said, "I quit"-

    20. EM

      Yeah

    21. AP

      ... or they've, you know, said, "I want a divorce," in front of their kids.

    22. EM

      Yeah.

    23. AP

      And you can't come back with, from a lot of the stuff you do or say in these moments.

    24. EM

      No. I mean, if you're gonna walk out on a job or a relationship, or push your best friend away, or say something that you can't take back, because of course, I mentioned this to you earlier off-camera, um, you know, I personally, during times of rage, which may have been triggered by RSD, have said some horrendous things and behaved in a really narcissistic way at times, and I can never take those things back. I can never change those decisions where I've hurt somebody else through being hurt. There's no excuse, by the way, but I have to admit that. And I, and I don't know if I said this last time as well, but one of the things that I think is really important is if you've been a victim of bullying or abuse, and you've got ADHD and autism, the chances are you've probably been reactive at times.

    25. AP

      Mm. Yes.

    26. EM

      And you've probably become abusive at times.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. EM

      I certainly have, and it's all very well talking about the pain of being neglected, abused, treated badly, but too many times we don't talk about the fact that we've done it back, or we've upset somebody deeply by making the decision to drink again or by being reactive and, and saying horrible things we can't take back. Too often we won't admit that side of it. So you're right. I'm not saying it will work perfectly every time, and it will take practice, and I always say these little techniques that I offer, you kind of have to practice them when you're not in the red zone.

    29. AP

      Yes. Yeah.

    30. EM

      So as a daily little practice, so that when it does come to the red zone, your brain is so rehearsed at doing it, that it's second nature. So you do have to put the time in to practice these things. Soma control, brain-body system control, is very much about practice. It doesn't just happen overnight. So people might say, "Well, I've tried breathing, it doesn't work," but do you try it on a daily basis? Do you put the effort in, in training your whole system? 'Cause if you're not, probably you're gonna have to give it a few goes before it starts to work.

  8. 30:07 – 31:26

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

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  9. 31:26 – 36:01

    Is masking actually a survival response?

    1. AP

      to the episode. Do you think masking is often a response to feeling unsafe or misunderstood?

    2. EM

      I think it's always a response to that. Um, again, it can become a useful skill. I think people that mask can be really good salespeople. I think people that mask can be really good therapists actually because you can mold yourself around each person, but I think you have to address the root of that. So for me, I would say that I'm really, really bad at admitting when I'm not okay. Um, and I almost don't feel like there's a space in the world for me to be not... I can talk about it retrospectively, but in the moment I find it really hard to be vulnerable because, again, to your point, being vulnerable, uh, has led me into some really catastrophic events in my life, and I've been criticized highly for being an attention seeker, and I mean, I used to self-harm when I was younger. So when you're told that you're an attention seeker, when you're told that you're too distracting, when you're told that you're too much... I don't know if I shared this before, but when I was a kid, because I was so desperate for people to like me, I used to give away loads of stuff. So I'd give away toys or gifts that people had given to me or jewelry that I really loved to secure a friendship, and, you know, through, through the fear that I wasn't enough.

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    4. EM

      So there's, and I know everyone's had that experience with ADHD and autism. You're either too much or you're not enough, you know? There's somewhere on that spectrum you sit. Often you're going between the two. So in terms of masking, you learn that you're not, you learn that you're not worthy, so the only way that you're gonna survive in this world is to create characters, and you end up sometimes so fragmented with so many different characters that you lose sight of that core self that we spoke about right at the beginning. Um, you know, if you, if your identity is split in three ways, fine, but if your identity is split into 20 different parts, it's really hard to remember who you are. So the masking then goes up a gear, and it, and it's such a hard thing to come out of, and I think that's where people start to really struggle with mental health.

    5. AP

      So do you think childhood trauma trains people to mask to survive?

    6. EM

      Yes, I think 'cause you have to be so hyper-aware and hyper-attuned and hyper, um, vigilant. Um, you know, like for me, slight noises of maybe my dad coming up the stairs or thinking he was walking past a door, so you'd hear the tiniest little movement and wonder if this is gonna happen again kind of thing. You become so tuned into somebody else that masking is a, a way of kind of avoiding the truth of how you really feel. So I remember being a child, and if someone was horrible to me... So I used to be fat when I was a kid, and I mean fat. You know when some people say they were fat as a kid and they actually weren't, they were just a little bit chubby?

    7. AP

      Sure.

    8. EM

      I was obese. So when I was a child and people picked on me for being fat or obviously at home when I'm being abused, I learnt how to behave to avoid the shame or the, uh, fear that I was experiencing. So if someone said... I remember one boy said that I wouldn't be able to go to his birthday party 'cause I wouldn't fit through the door. Now, now that's quite funny, but at the time he meant it. He don't want the fat, ugly kid coming to his party. That's gonna spoil his day. So that level of rejection, so I just became a bit of a, a nutter. [laughs]

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. EM

      I sort of like went round beating up all the boys.

    11. AP

      Sure.

    12. EM

      That was my way, but actually I was deeply, deeply hurt. I was massively affected. So the mask that I wore there was that I'm gonna bully the boys before they've got a chance to bully me, and I'm gonna be protector of the girls so that they liked me. And then at home, the mask was just that, I guess, I became a bit moody and a bit difficult. So instead of being vulnerable, I became somebody again. I probably created the mask of, of moodiness so that that became the problem rather than being abused. So there was these adaptions that you make- Which make you, again, very, very vulnerable going into adulthood, 'cause if they're the adaptions that you make as a child, and they're the defense mechanisms that you have as a child, you're definitely gonna ruin some of your relationships

  10. 36:01 – 37:55

    What happens when you finally stop masking

    1. AP

      And what tends to happen when somebody finally stops masking?

    2. EM

      They feel extremely exposed and vulnerable because that's been their defense. Like I say, it's a defense mechanism. It's, it's a, an, an armor that you wear, and it saves you from being hurt. It saves you from looking foolish. It saves you from hu- hu- humiliation. So as soon as you stop masking, uh-oh, the real me's gonna be revealed, and the real me was the one that was told that you're too much or not enough, or that you're naughty, or that you're horrible, or that you're selfish

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. EM

      That's a big one, actually, selfish. So to remove the mask is to reveal the real you, and the real you has been told that you're a problem your entire life. However, the road to authenticity, although it is difficult, and it takes a while, once you're free to be yourself and admit that you are flawed as well as hurt, I'm deeply flawed, but I'm also deeply hurt by some of the things that have happened in my life. I'm deeply hurt by being misunderstood and, and labeled as the problem. But again, those adaptions have created narcissistic parts of me at times, certainly in my 20s, that I am deeply ashamed of. But if you can say that out loud and people still like you, it's like, "Huh, I can still be me, and actually, that's okay," because guess what? They're probably doing the same. There's a large number of people carrying trauma, autism, ADHD, or all three. We don't know the actual statistics, so there's so many people that aren't diagnosed, and if it's not one of those, it's something else. You know, so yeah, probably we'll all carry on masking for the rest of our lives

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. EM

      ... but let's be honest about it. You know, we can mask and we can say, "I feel like I'm masking.

  11. 37:55 – 40:42

    Why masking leaves so many people feeling lonely

    1. EM

      I need a break. This is a bit too much." Just admit it. If nothing else, admit that you're masking. But it takes a while to be able to, to get there. A lot of people sit in silence and suffer in silence, and they won't admit it, so I think it's really important that someone does, and sort of go, "I'll go first."

    2. AP

      Yes, absolutely. I had a heartbreaking letter, actually, from a viewer a- about masking and, and they said, "I became so good at being who everyone needed me to be that I struggled to find people who loved me for who I actually was." Uh, but do you think people with ADHD often experience profound loneliness?

    3. EM

      Yes, and actually, that's interesting what she said. Pe- uh, "People struggled to love me for who I actually was." No, it wasn't people that struggled to love her for who she actually was. It was her that struggled to love her for who she was. Do you remember what I said at the beginning about thoughts being electrical, and then you've got this chemical cascade?

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. EM

      Then you've got the cellular software that-

    6. AP

      Yes

    7. EM

      ... operates the soma, and the identity is created, and you put that energy and that frequency out into the atmosphere, the electromagnetic waves. So our frequency, by the way, is about 10 feet around us, from an electromagnetic point of view. Goes a little bit into the physics here, and we're matching the energy in the room. If you don't love yourself, what you're doing is you're getting a feedback loop, and you're creating this bias, this cognitive bias, "Oh, they didn't like me, and so that means that they don't like me because of who I am." Maybe because you don't like yourself, and that's the energy you're giving out, the magnet effect, is that people are, are cautious around you, or slightly uncomfortable, or slightly awkward, 'cause you're not being yourself. So I would argue that it wasn't that other people didn't love her. It was that she didn't love herself. So, uh, I think loneliness, therefore, is a real, real issue. If you don't love yourself, and you can't connect to others because you're so afraid that they don't love you too, then the isolation that you experience is gonna be so high. But also, remember, so many of us have been told we're the problem. We've been told that we are not acceptable as we are. We've been told that we don't fit into the classroom. You know, so many kids are sent out of the classroom because they don't fit in, so they sit in a room with maybe three other people while everybody else is all together in the classroom getting on with the lesson. You're going to feel lonely. You're going to feel like a problem. You're going to feel like everybody is against you. So how do we adapt to that? We mask, we defend, and we push people away, which leads to more of that feeling. So again, we have to change that, that, the, the thought processes, to change the chemical cascade, to alter the cellular software, to alter the identity, to change what we put out into the atmosphere, into

  12. 40:42 – 44:32

    How to find your people and stop feeling alone

    1. EM

      the frequency

    2. AP

      How do you do that? How, how do you start loving yourself more so you feel like you need to mask less, so therefore, the version of you that is interacting with people is actually you? How do you reduce that feeling of loneliness?

    3. EM

      I think you have to be willing to... I mean, as a psychotherapist, I would say that therapy's a really good way to start because, you know, I will challenge everything someone says. I'm quite confrontational, actually, in therapy. I'm not always just gonna be sweetness and light

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. EM

      Uh, I think good therapy w- will be a good balance of the two, where you'll feel safe, and loved, and nurtured, and you'll have a great relationship with your therapist. But quite honestly, I'm also there to call you out on your bullshit, so I will do that. And I think that's where, where you need somebody that will say, "Hang on a minute. That's a belief system. That's the neurons that have connected." And if you can... As a, a good therapist will be able to join the dots, so they'll be able to say, "Look- This thing that happened to you when you were 10, that cre- that repetition-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. EM

      ... created a situation in your brain where you were joining these neurons and wiring these pathways, which was creating the chemical cascade, which became familiar. That cellular software that's been running unconsciously, 95%, running this system for all of these years has created this belief system. That is all it is. And I go back to the idea of the matrix in a simulation. Your reality is subjective, okay? Most people aren't having an objective view to their own reality. They're literally coming through that confirmation bias because of that whole system I explained before, repetition compulsion, feedback loops. So their subjective lens is so small, relatively speaking, and, you know, Einstein said that your, your reality is what you observe, okay? So if your observation is your subjective lens, you need somebody to, to question that. And so the best way for you to start to love yourself is to have someone question it and show you love and safety at the same time. So I can go, yeah, like, like, like, like with myself. I love myself, truly, I really do, but that doesn't mean I don't go through moments of annihilation and collapse. And still to this day, I struggle with suicidal ideations, but they don't last as long because I'm able now, with the skill set that I have, to challenge them. Do I wanna sit in, in self-wallowing sometimes for 24 hours, 48 hours? Yes, I do, and I actually don't think that's unhealthy. I think that's a time of self-observation and self-reflection, and sometimes you gotta feel the pain. So I think rather than avoiding yourself, confront yourself, and do it with somebody that can do it either professionally or someone that you trust. Confront the parts of yourself that you struggle with. It's a choice. Your, your simulation, if you like, the game of life is a choice.

    8. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EM

      And you have to be willing to choose.

    10. AP

      Yeah. Wow.

    11. EM

      And maybe you have to be aware that, that, that you have to choose. 'Cause if you're not aware that you're living in that subjective lens, that's half the problem.

    12. AP

      Ella, I wanna move on to the most emotionally unpredictable part of the show, and that is the audience questions.

    13. EM

      Okay.

    14. AP

      And I've got three of them, and they're all absolutely fantastic, and they're in the washing machine of woes-

    15. EM

      Wow

    16. AP

      ... which is behind me. It's called the washing machine of woes because it's a woe from the audience, and it's in a washing machine, 'cause for me, washing machine represents memory loss, 'cause I always forget to empty the washing machine after the cycle's finished.

    17. EM

      [laughs]

    18. AP

      Do you do that?

    19. EM

      Yes, I do, and it goes very moldy-

    20. AP

      Yes

    21. EM

      ... and smelly.

    22. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    23. EM

      [laughs]

    24. AP

      So that's the public service announcement for the listeners, to empty the washing machine.

    25. EM

      [laughs]

    26. AP

      Uh, although I do use the Tiimo app, which is, it is a productivity app, and, and they, it does remind me, so I, but I'm still a work in progress.

    27. EM

      [laughs]

    28. AP

      Right, Ella, first question from

  13. 44:32 – 47:53

    The one thing people with ADHD need to stop apologising for

    1. AP

      the audience is, what's one thing people with ADHD need to stop apologizing for?

    2. EM

      Well, I'm going to make this much more personal, but I, I think a lot of your audience will relate to this. I think we need to stop apologizing for being late.

    3. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    4. EM

      [laughs] I am always late, to the point now where my reminder texts for my clients tell them that I'm going to be late. So rather than apologizing for it after the effect, just let people know the thing that you do that you might apologize for before it happens, so that they know that it might happen, so they can adjust their timescale to yours if it's time. If it's not time, just sort of pre-warn people rather than apologize. 'Cause if you keep apologizing, then you're putting some weird energy into the universe. Just let them know, and let them deal with it. [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs] That's amazing. I'm, I have the opposite problem. I don't know if you've ever experienced this.

    6. EM

      But I think that's 'cause you're autistic as well.

    7. AP

      I'm always early, which is essentially the opposite of being late, I guess. Um, but I, I have a genuine fear of being late. I, I don't-

    8. EM

      Yeah, I understand that

    9. AP

      ... I am very on the ball. Like, I do plan train times and everything the night before. I wake up, and there's, like, a... I write down I need to leave the house at 10:00 AM to c- to get the 10:45 train, which gets me into London at 11:45. And it, so it's all planned, but there is, like, an intense fear of, of lateness. I'm always i- in a cafe around the corner well ahead of time, and I guess it's probably, like, just the fear of letting people down maybe and, and getting rejected or-

    10. EM

      Exactly that

    11. AP

      ... sensing that they're annoyed with me, and then the whole interview is gonna be uncomfortable for me.

    12. EM

      Well, I think when you, when I'm working with train times, I kind of have to be on time. Obviously, you can't control what happens with the trains, 'cause that's often outside of our control. But I think the reason that people are trying to be early is 'cause they've been scolded in some way for being late, whereas I think I've always been able to get away with being late, hence the reason I'm not super aware of... I know some people think it's really rude, but in my job, and I think this is where the real problem starts, is that if someone starts crying at the end of a session, I can't just say, "Right, I don't care that you're emotionally dysregulated right now. You have to leave 'cause I have someone else waiting." And because I don't plan gaps between sessions, I work back to back, I think I've got good at telling people I'm gonna be late because these things can happen, and that's formed a bad habit in the rest of my life-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. EM

      ... where it's almost like, well, I've got a reason to be late, and no one tells me off for it 'cause they expect it because I don't apologize for it anymore. So I'm not saying it's the best habit, but I don't wanna keep apologizing for myself. I just have a problem with time distortion.

    15. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. EM

      So that's it. It's the executive function. I blame the ADHD, and I think that's an actual thing. But you're the opposite end.

    17. AP

      Yeah.

    18. EM

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      Yeah, the other end of the spectrum.

    20. EM

      Yeah. So you don't need to apologize for that.

    21. AP

      No.

    22. EM

      But-

    23. AP

      Can't apologize for being... 'Cause they don't... I guess I'm always on time, but they don't know that I've been frantically almost panicking to get to a cafe an hour before-

    24. EM

      Exactly

    25. AP

      ... the arrival time of the actual event.

    26. EM

      Yeah. And also, I think when you're always early, you set the expectation that you're always gonna be on time, which would frighten me more, 'cause I don't want anyone to expect me to be on time if I'm... And I think that's the perfection thing-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. EM

      ... in you as well. It's fascinating. But that's the one thing-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. EM

      ... I would say to not apologize for.

  14. 47:53 – 52:11

    The biggest lie people with ADHD have been taught about themselves

    1. AP

      one's a good one. What's the biggest lie people with ADHD have been taught to believe about themselves?

    2. EM

      I think that probably the biggest lie is that they're too sensitive. Um, because actually, I think being told you're too sensitive is really dismissive of someone who's perhaps just really intuitive, really good at reading the room, 'cause again, that hyper-attunement and hypervigilance makes you just really good at joining the dots really, really quickly. And if you're told you're too sensitive, what is essentially a good relational skill, I think, actually becomes something that's detrimental. So I don't think, I don't think we should tell people they're too sensitive. I think we should praise them for their levels of emotional depth and their ability to be hyper-attuned with others. And yeah, I would say let's scrap that one.

    3. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. EM

      Too sensitive, out the door. Get rid of it. [laughs]

    5. AP

      [laughs] I guess it can, could go back to the h- hunter-farmer theory a little bit-

    6. EM

      That's right

    7. AP

      ... that sensitivity would be a positive thing. Like, you'd hear the footstep of the lion-

    8. EM

      Yeah

    9. AP

      ... crack that twig in the-

    10. EM

      Yeah

    11. AP

      ... in the forest, and you'd be alert to danger.

    12. EM

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      I guess, well, how does that play out in, in today? Are you more, like, attuned to spotting red flags? Are you more attuned to spotting abuse or-

    14. EM

      Yes

    15. AP

      ... gaslighting?

    16. EM

      Yeah. I think in most people's lives, there's something that we should be looking out for. You know, as a therapist, I'm looking for those, those cues, but I suppose as... You know, if you're in the workplace and you've got a friend, and you start to notice that they're a bit quieter or, you know, they're not looking after themselves as well, you might spot those cues a little bit earlier than somebody else, and you can then ask the question, "Is everything okay?" I think that's, again, that's a beautiful thing, to be somebody that notices others. And, you know, if you feel things deeply emotionally, that means that you're empathetic, and it means that you care, and it means that you're a, you know, perhaps a creative person as well, and that you can use that creativity. So if you feel deeply, write a song, write a poem, paint a picture. It's not being too sensitive. It's being somebody that feels deeply. Just find a way to express it rather than see it as a bad thing.

    17. AP

      Yes. Yeah, I guess being too sensitive, if you like, I guess is, like, another way of saying you got heightened intuition.

    18. EM

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      You're, you're amazing at spotting, uh, interruptions to patterns-

    20. EM

      Yes

    21. AP

      ... that you are associating with safety. So you can recognize when there is a nasty person on the horizon or someone isn't quite being genuine with the words that are coming out of their mouth, and then when it's proven that they're a nasty person, and everyone's so shocked 'cause they didn't see it, you're the one going, "I told you so."

    22. EM

      Yeah, and how many times have people found themselves saying that about a friend's boyfriend or a friend's girlfriend or that boss at work, you know, or that teacher at school that ended up being in the newspapers for all the wrong reasons, you know? I think actually it's a skill, and I think, uh, I think the world is changing in the way that it views ADHD and autism, but I still think there's a really long way to go. I think people really misinterpret what it means from a, from a, a larger picture, and I think one of the things that I'm sure so many people that were late diagnosed hear is that they're too sensitive, and they must walk around feeling, a great deal of people, that that's the truth.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. EM

      You hear something enough times, you believe it, don't you? And then you suppress so much of what's beautiful about you, and I think that's the saddest thing, and that's why I mentioned the subjective lens earlier. You know, sometimes you gotta step out of your way of thinking and observe reality from different angles, and the only way that you can do that is by talking to people. But I think another way that you can do that, and I think a lot of people get this from this podcast, is because they hear these conversations. I know I do. I get this from your podcast, is that you suddenly realize there's something about yourself that millions of other people are experiencing.

    25. AP

      Yes.

    26. EM

      And-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. EM

      ... actually, that's not the truth because we're all sitting here questioning it now. So I think actually these podcasts are more useful than, than people realize, you know? Generally speaking, I think this is where a lot of people get their education, this particular podcast, on things like ADHD and autism, and your books and stuff like that. I think they're incredibly useful and really important.

    29. AP

      Thank you very much. And the idea that people are too sensitive, being perceived as a negative, can get in the bin.

    30. EM

      Yes.

  15. 52:11 – 54:05

    The message every person with ADHD needs to hear

    1. AP

      question from the audience: If every person with ADHD could hear one message from you right now, what would it be?

    2. EM

      I'm gonna go back to the identity. Your subjective view of yourself and your identity is based on what you've repeatedly heard, seen, and experienced. ADHD is not the problem, and I think that's one thing that we have to remember. It can feel like a problem if the people around us are belittling it, minimizing it, taking the mickey out of us. "Oh, another person with ADHD," you know, all of these things that we hear. And then it's almost like, oh, it's embarrassing to have ADHD 'cause everybody thinks ADHD is just one of those things that social media made up. So ADHD isn't the problem. ADHD can be your greatest strength if you learn how to manage it and learn how to live in a world that doesn't always accept it. So I think one of the things that we need to do is realize that there's a lot of projection from other people. Their wounds, their experiences, are often projected onto you, and because you are somebody that feels deeply and somebody that, you know, has a lot of emotional landscape, you might accept their truth to be your truth. You're not the problem, and actually, as we learn more and more about ADHD and as the world evolves, I think we'll start to see that it's the people that have projected onto us are the people that have the real problem. And actually, as a community, I know people i- in this community, and it's a fabulous community with fabulous people. That's what I want people to know.

    3. AP

      Wow, what an answer. [laughs]

    4. EM

      Thank you.

    5. AP

      Thanks, Ella. That was incredible. Uh, just finally, before we end, I wanna deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest. They actually wrote themselves a letter to their younger self.

    6. EM

      Right.

    7. AP

      And what I do is I deliver that letter to the guest in front of me today, which is obviously yourself. Right. There we go. To the next guest. There we go, Ella.

    8. EM

      Thank you very much.

    9. AP

      If you could kindly open that and read it out loud.

  16. 54:05 – 54:59

    A letter to my younger self

    1. EM

      Ah. Okay, so, "To my younger self. Hi, little one. I imagine you are just getting back from school, worrying why you haven't done your homework, knowing you're going to get called lazy. I want you to know you are the opposite of lazy. You struggle with normal, but you excel in the wonderfully strange, creative mountains of your mind. It will take a while, but it will all work out. You will find people that love you, not in spite of your flaws, but because of them. Believe in yourself. You are stronger than you know."

    2. AP

      Wow, what an amazing letter-

    3. EM

      That's beautiful

    4. AP

      ... to their younger self. That was Rich On Rocks Pink, AKA ADHD Dad.

    5. EM

      Ah.

    6. AP

      An amazing tone to finish on. Ella, on behalf of everyone listening who is grappling to understand how their brain works, thank you so much.

    7. EM

      Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure and a privilege. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 55:00

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