ADHD Chatter PodcastWhy ADHD Makes You Hate Yourself (And How to Stop)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,552 words- 0:00 – 3:33
Trailer
- RFRich Forbes
In the ADHD community, there's a thing that you feel you should be right about. If somebody else gets it wrong, that's gonna trigger that justice sensitivity to the point where even after that conversation has died, you're obsessing over that particular piece and justifying that you were right to have called them out on it, and it's only towards the end of that rumination cycle that you think, "Well, maybe I pushed that a bit too far."
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think a lot of people with ADHD spend their whole life trying to earn their self-worth?
- RFRich Forbes
We have this perception, it's either only us that feels like this or it's everybody. Both of those come with a need to be visible for the good things while you continue to contain the bad things that you know circle around inside.
- APAlex Partridge
Really, the reason I was so excited to bring you onto the podcast, could you share your groundbreaking ADHD coping strategy with us?
- RFRich Forbes
It's a catchall for all ADHD traits, and it's RAISE. R-A-I-S-E.
- APAlex Partridge
Let's start with R. What does that stand for? Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] I've never started a podcast like this before, and I w-wanted to read to you a letter that I was sent by a viewer of the ADHD Chatter podcast that actually changed how I think about ADHD.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Uh, and the letter is this. It said, "The worst thing about ADHD is that I get argumentative about the most nonsensical things ever, and only realize when it's too late that I was freaking out about nothing. It hurts a lot of friendships that I have and the relationships I have at work with colleagues, or even with my parents. It makes me seem like an arrogant person. I hate being alone with my own thoughts and being alone with my own faults. I think it's easier to prove myself rather than accept myself. I think that's my main problem." How common within the ADHD community do you think that thought process is?
- RFRich Forbes
I'd say hugely common. I mean, e-even just from personal experience, um, uh, the years of kind of silly things like correcting grammar in documents or, you know, when people speak, when they send you a text message, and kind of almost being obsessive about that, um, pre-diagnosis. So for me, I, I, I personally have done that as a thing all my life. I've, I've, I've managed to contain it now, um, but all my life I've, I, you know, look at the text message and it's got the wrong kind of you're in or the wrong kind of there in, and you go back and say, "You mean this kind of there." And there's almost like an element of that justice sensitivity creeping in-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm
- RFRich Forbes
... that that's wrong, and you can't have that wrong. You know, maybe, you know, there's a trigger back. But I think in the ADHD community, there's a thing that you feel you should be right about that's on your trajectory, and if somebody else gets it wrong, then that's gonna trigger that justice sensitivity to the point, like I used to be, where even after that conversation has died, you're obsessing over that particular piece and justifying that you were right to have called them out on it, and it's only towards the end of that kind of rumination cycle that you kinda think, "Well, maybe I pushed that a bit too far."
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. Yeah.
- RFRich Forbes
You know, and then the regret then, then sinks in.
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna zoom in, Rich, just onto that point, 'cause I think you've really landed on
- 3:33 – 5:00
Why ADHD Makes You Feel You Have to Earn Your Worth
- APAlex Partridge
something there.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think a lot of people with ADHD spend their whole life trying to earn their self-worth?
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, and I think particularly, you know, the late diagnosed community, there's this kind of stretch. I've got this, this c-client that I coach now who's, you know, mid-forties, on the, on the outside is, is successful in their career. Um, they work, you know, in a big kind of PR kind of capacity. He always has this sense that he, you know, when I talk to him, that he's trying to prove his worth. Even when we first start a coaching session, he is trying to show himself to be, you know, this very senior position that he is and, um, uh, and sort of elevated in, in, in that sense. And I think when you are undiagnosed or you're late diagnosed, particularly those of us that grew up in, you know, the '80s or the '70s and '80s and '90s, um, we have this perception, it's either only us that feels like this or it's everybody that feels like this. And both of those, I think, come with a c- need to be visible for the good things while you continue to contain the bad things that you know circle around inside, whether that's because you're, you know, you don't wanna be different from the rest of the crowd, so you're gonna keep everything contained, or you wanna be, you know, kind of, uh, the lone ranger. Again, you don't want people to see the real you-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- RFRich Forbes
... and therefore you contain it.
- APAlex Partridge
And that effort to contain it sounds like it's got a consequence.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think following
- 5:00 – 7:53
The Hidden Cost of Constantly Proving Yourself
- APAlex Partridge
on from that, there is a cost of constantly trying to prove yourself?
- RFRich Forbes
Well, I think it's, it's, you know, eight... People talk about ADHD being exhausting. ADHD is exhausting. Um, and, you know, and, and they all, you know, they all come right the way back, I think, to those neurological differences. You know, that's, that's, that's the essence of everything, isn't it? When you come back to rejection sensitive dysphoria, when you come back to kind of emotional hypersensitivity, justice sensitivity, all of those things congregate together, uh, and create, you know, a thought stream each maybe, you know. And I know from, like I say, from my personal experience, you know, I was, um, I was in the army for f- a few years a long time ago. I was very much focused on, uh, I guess at that time proving myself, and I'm proving myself to my dad, proving myself to me, that I could be, you know, the man, I could be the soldier, um, and reach those higher echelons of, of, of rank and status within that time. Um, and actually all of those things kind of congregate. So if I look back on it now, post-diagnosis, I'm kind of seeing, you know, the rejection sensitive dysphoria saying, "I'm not worthy, therefore I must be worthy in your eyes." And that involves people-pleasing. So you bring in the people-pleasing to avoid rejection sensitive dysphoria kicking in. You know, the way that you, your amygdala or whatever it is, kind of, um, opens up and says, "You're under threat because you're not good enough." Your people-pleasing says, "Well, the only way I can be good enough is to overcompensate." So you're running those two streams of thought at the same time. You're also running that sense in yourself that you're on your own, that nobody else is in the same position as you, or you're running the thought that everybody must feel the same, but somehow you're the one that's failing. You know, so there's all of those constant streams, certainly in my brain, certainly in some of the people that I've coached, um, over the last couple of years, have had that same kind of sense that, you know, it's not just about I wanna do well in my career, but it's I wanna do well in my career because of that person, because of that outcome, because of that situation, because of that amount of money, and that thing is the thing that will validate me and justify me-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- RFRich Forbes
... in that, in that position. And that's why it's so exhausting, is because you're constantly running. You know, it's like having... Like being Elvis in his room with his five different television sets, and one annoys him, so he shoots it. You know, it's a bit like that kind of moment in your brain where everything is congregating together and you just, you know, you hit that, you know, special ADHD burnout.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. The backstory of how we met, Rich, we did a s- talk together-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... in a company a f- a few months ago, and I heard you speak, and I got so excited about the prospect of inviting you onto here to speak to the ADHD Chatter listeners because you said a, a, an, a method of, of managing, coping with ADHD that I, I'd never ever heard before, and I, I thought, "You've gotta come on here."
- 7:53 – 9:10
The Moment Everything Finally Made Sense
- APAlex Partridge
Before we get to that, what's your mission within the ADHD space, and is there a particular person that has made you dedicate your entire life to helping people with ADHD?
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah. Um, I mean, I've got four kids, so this is in, in no way, um [laughs] ... This is my RSD again.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
This is in no way discrediting any of the other three. Um, but my son, Teddy, who's my youngest, um, he was diagnosed with ADHD and autism at the age of five. Um, there was very early signs of pathological demand avoidance. So he kind of opened my mind to the fact that I could be n- neurodivergent and led to my diagnosis. So my mission as it stands, and has been since then, is I wanna make sure that, you know, that ADHD and autism are at the frontal lobes of everybody who's hiring by the time that he gets to the point where he's looking for a job. So he's looking for the right job that suits his brain. He's, you know, confident and comfortable to be able to do that, but equally, there are processes in place that enable him to operate, but also pull back when he's overwhelmed or overstimulated, that ha- have, you know, these, these sensory rooms that, that enable him to, to progress as he needs-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- RFRich Forbes
... to progress, rather than trying to contain everybody in a, in a neurotypical
- 9:10 – 10:16
The Saddest Thing People With ADHD Tell Themselves
- RFRich Forbes
kind of world.
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think is the saddest sentence someone with ADHD tells themself over and over again?
- RFRich Forbes
The, the most common that I hear, which is 98% of people I speak to, is, "You're not enough." Um, and it is that internal voice. Yeah, there's a lot of, um, stuff that traces back to childhood and the 20,000 negative messages more that you receive as an ADHD child than you do. And as a father of, you know, of an ADHD child, that when he's coming down from his medication, it's very hard to manage. Those messages, you know, come out. You can't avoid them. Um, and you know, I think that then triggers that cycle of not being enough, always trying to search for more. That combination of the ADHD brain and the way that that works into the, the kind of, um, childhood trauma, if you like, that then, you know, helps your brain develop to try and prevent those threats from coming.
- APAlex Partridge
Such an amazing story, and that actually leads nicely into the main coping strategy we're gonna be discussing a little bit later on. But first, I wanted to talk about the grief that comes with an ADHD
- 10:16 – 11:01
The Grief Nobody Warns You About After ADHD Diagnosis
- APAlex Partridge
diagnosis. What do you think people tend to grieve most after an ADHD diagnosis?
- RFRich Forbes
The most stories that I hear are, "Who could I have been?" You know, "What could I have done?" Um, some of that, I think, is, i- you know, for, f- for me personally, it was centered in the expectations that were set upon me as a teenager leaving school. Um, very much centered around that, and what could I have been? Could I have gone to university? Could I have been a doctor? But it's very much, you know, if I'd had the support, if I'd had the coaching, the training, the understanding, the knowledge, if I'd had all of those things in place, could I have been the top of this, the top of that?
- APAlex Partridge
On the topic of grief, we're gonna expand it a little bit, and we're gonna do something I've never
- 11:01 – 17:00
Why ADHD Diagnosis Hurts Differently at Every Age
- APAlex Partridge
done before, and I've created a visual representation of someone's life-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... on the table in front of us. So there's four ages there represented: a 30-year-old, a 50-year-old, a 70-year-old, and a 90-year-old person.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
At each of those ages, what do you think somebody might be grieving if they get a diagnosis at that age?
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah, that's a brilliant question. Uh, so from the 30-year-old perspective, you know, for me, it's very much about that kind of educational stance. So looking back, you know, it's still the same kind of point we, me, I mentioned a minute ago. Who could I have been? What could I have done? You know, what could I have done better? Um, what the guy... There's a chap that I coach at the moment who's in that sort of age group, family guy, um, who had a, a lot of trouble. I mean, he's, he's, um, he's a, he, he's doing really successful at, uh, successfully at his sales job. Really pleasant guy, and he's not kind of in that sad state at all. He, um, it's very much about, you know, if I'd been able to control my task paralysis or my procrastination for, again, the uninteresting part of sales, then where could I have been? What could I have done? What could I have achieved? If I'd gone to university, if I'd learnt more, if I'd done this, you know, could I have been more? Could I have been, you know, um, what my parents expected me to be?
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- RFRich Forbes
So that's, that's, that's 30, I think. It's very much about, 'cause you're still quite early in your career, very much about that, that, that phase. So we move forward to 50. So I was 48 when I was diagnosed. My grief was really about- You know, who, again, who could I have been? But having made another 20 years' worth of decisions throughout the course of that time, you know, I'm, I'm in my third marriage, I've got four children, I've had a career in the army, I've been in tech, I've had, you know, places where I've reached a ceiling lower than I thought I should have been reaching because I had, you know, opinions, and then I could be argumentative, you know, back to the first question that you mentioned at the start, and it was, if I'd understood more, if I'd been medicated, if I'd been supported and educated on that front, again, who could I have been?
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- RFRich Forbes
You know. And, you know, you're almost then grieving because, you know, at, at the age of, you know, kind of 48 to 50, you've only got a limited amount of time of, of employment and career to make a difference, you know? When you get to the, the older echelons, um, so and I've had people reach out to me who are in their 60s, who have said, "I've just been diagnosed, thinking about trying medication. It's gonna help me," you know, et cetera, et cetera. And they're just starting to learn about the, the other hormonal differences that impact how their ADHD appears, particularly in, in, in women. Um, uh, particularly, you know, as I say, for those in their 60s that are post-menopause, that are now coming to terms with, with how their body's kind of functioning. So they're quite open to it. But I think in the much older age group, so, you know, I think about my own father, who I would say, you know, is probably ADHD from a lot of the characteristics that he has, and probably, you know, an element of autism in there as well, because, you know, he te- he tells some quite, um, prolific stories, and I'm fairly confident that he's not gonna be [laughs] watching this. He's not...
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
He probably can't spell YouTube, never mind watch it. Um, but he, you know, if you went to him and said, "You're ADHD. We've done some assessments. We've watched you." Even if we gave absolute categorical evidence, I know it's not available now, but if you said, "You've got this much usable dopamine in your synapses," you know, to that level, if we were able to say that to him, he would still be in huge denial. He would say, "That's not me. ADHD is a new thing. I've not... You know, I wasn't born in the '70s. I was born in the '40s," and, you know. So he's 82 now, so he would be in huge denial. But I think that denial, um, is probably keeping the actual openness of that thought internalized. So he would probably, in his own mind and in his own body, say, "Well, is there a chance?" You know. And that, that grief is a lonely grief because it's, your career's over. You, you, you know, he's retired many years ago, um, so he's not thinking about that. He lives on his own. His partner died a few years ago. Um, and so it's him internalizing and ruminating. You know, he was brought up in a, in a generation that didn't talk about feelings and mental health and emotion. His dad was, you know, born just at the start of the 1900s, so, you know, he was very much in that staunch kind of stoic way, um, way of life. And, um, I think his grief would be the life that he lost and also his inability to be able to communicate that, because that would be a whole new skill that he'd have to learn, so he can only ruminate. And that's a very lonely kind of grief that you have when you, you sort of find out, "I'm grieving for that person that I could have been."
- APAlex Partridge
Is there a grief towards the re- the realization of how much you've masked and how lonely you have been as a consequence of masking for so many years? Because you might have been putting on this character that fit in and made friends, but because it wasn't actually you, th- the version that was getting that human connection wasn't who you actually are deep inside.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
So even though you could go to a party and be in a busy room, you feel incredibly lonely because you're not being true, and you're not putting the real version of you out there. Is there a grief in realizing that so much loneliness perhaps could have been avoided had you recognized that you were ADHD earlier and therefore masked less?
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah. I mean, my, my grief on a social, a social front was about, you know... It was about saying, you know, "Why, why am I not able to let people see behind the mask?" Um, and you know, that whole Jim Carrey movie kind of springs to mind, uh, when you do it. But actually, what I, I think I discovered on that, on that journey for me personally, and, and again, a lot of people that I talk to who are, are of my generation, so born in the '70s and, you know, lived through the '80s and all that sort of stuff, is that you don't... You know, when, when, when
- 17:00 – 18:54
How to Tell If You've Been Masking Your Entire Life
- RFRich Forbes
it's not been visible, when it's not been tangible to you that you're masking, you just think everybody else creates a persona for the environment that they're in. And that means that you don't actually know what the real core of you actually is. So you're not trying to suppress the real you. The real you is actually just a multitude of masks in different situations. And you know, so there's the grief part, which i- at the start is saying, you know, "The social situation, if I could just be myself, then I could be, you know, more engaging, I could be more conversational, I could do the small talk thing and it'd be easy." Um, but actually, the reality of it is that i- there's a sequence of masks, and behind that mask is, is, is nothing, you know? Um, and that's okay. Because we're, we're ADHD. We don't have, you know, a superhighway of, of thought messages going through our brains to then only have one persona that sits there. We have a multitude of personas, and our ability to adapt, again, is linked to being in the hunter. We have to adapt to our environment and be right for that environment in order to secure our prey, in order to s- you know, to safe, safe the, you know, put the, the tribe to safety, in order to get the right, um, non-poisonous fruit and veg into our systems. So I think it all kind of boils down to that, to that kind of point, is that it's okay to have different variables to your personality. You call them masking or whatever you will. Some of that is to protect other people, protect your tribe. Some of that is just because it's a nuance for that particular situation. There should not be any one version of you- With your multi-level thoughts
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting, Rich. I wanna zoom in on the grief aspect, and I think this is one of the most important questions. I got diagnosed with ADHD at 36, and, uh, my biggest grief was that I ha- I had spent so much time in the wrong environments, in the wrong jobs-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... the wrong relationships.
- 18:54 – 25:06
Maybe You're Not the Problem, Maybe It's Your Environment 21:04 Is Masking ADHD's Biggest Challenge?
- APAlex Partridge
How many people do you think in the ADHD community are judged when really they're just in the wrong environment?
- RFRich Forbes
That's a difficult question, Alex. Um, [laughs] because the ADHD community isn't one community. You know, that's, that's, that's the thing. So if you look at the undiagnosed community, most of those in that age group from 35 upwards, um, who are still remaining undiagnosed, they may be suspecting, they may not be suspecting, you know, potentially, um, are either judged or they're judging themselves because they're managing to hide those traits and symptoms because, you know, they think that that's not gonna be acceptable in the workplace, so they, they mask it, they hide it. Um, so they will judge themselves, in my view. Um, but if they are able, you know, to talk a bit more openly about it, then, then yes, they're... Without actually putting that label on it, then yes, they probably will be judged by it. Um, I think those late diagnosed that are kinda going through that grief cycle, um, I think they again, you know, will be, you know, almost, you know, some of them, the late diagnosed people that I've come across that are in that hyper-focused state of learning more and more about it, start to emphasize and amplify those traits, you know, and start to look, "I'm gonna be, you know, I'm gonna be creative," whatever, "I'm gonna be creative in this moment," um, or, "I'm gonna suddenly verbal something out," you know? And it's not actually necessarily how their ADHD works, it's just that they've picked up that thing and they, they need to present, you know, 'cause they've now told everybody. So there is that level of judgment that goes, "Well, you've got this label now, so you're gonna act up to it," you know? So that's, that's kind of that late diagnosed kinda stage where you're kind of going, "Oh, I've gotta try and be myself now," not realizing that actually, like we said before, the multifaceted masks are yourself, you know, in a, in a sense.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. And I suppose with any type of judgment, you learn to hide it and mask.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
And I think this is bringing us closer to that coping strategy, which I got really excited when I saw you talk about it on stage. But just focusing on masking for a second, we talk a lot about masking-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... on this podcast. But with your experience and your perspective, do you think that masking is the biggest hidden challenge that comes with ADHD?
- RFRich Forbes
Um, no, I don't. I think, I don't think it's masking as such. Well, it's, it's probably connected. So I think rumination is the hardest. Rumination is, is the thing that, you know, kind of blights us. It's the thing that leads us to, um, the other coping mechanisms, the, you know, the, the, the wine, the cannabis, the, you know, other things that are gonna help us just kind of tone our brain down a little bit, and that's because we're always ruminating that, that moment, that one word that was said in the office, you know? I've done it, um, this week where I was having a very serious meeting. There was a, a new starter there sat next to me, and there was people on the screen that were, you know, um, a longer tooth i- in, in the role. Um, and out of nowhere I said something that was completely, you know, really i- inappropriate into m- in today's modern world. Not offensive, but inappropriate. And I, I spent, you know, the entirety of last night, I went out for a drink with a friend, but I spent the entirety of last night, one part of my brain just running over it, and over it, and over it, and over it, and over it. So I think rumination is. But, you know, I think also as, as men, um, particularly, I think, you know, probably less so for women, that masking element comes in because we don't like to show our true feelings, you know? And that comes neurotypical, neurodivergent, different types of neurodivergence. Men aren't f- comfortable, and I don't think they're necessarily, in a lot of instances, allowed to show that level of, of weakness as it's sometimes seen. So the masking does cover the rumination, but it starts at the core of being ruminating, which then goes back to rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is, I think, your favorite topic, but [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
But it goes back to that. That's right at the very core of that, is that, is that limitation where you are physically in pain because you've this perceived rejection, this perceived criticism, and I think that's where it starts, which is obviously then actually neurological.
- APAlex Partridge
We're gonna touch on rejection sensitivity dysphoria in a moment, 'cause I know you've got some fascinating insights to, to, to open up with that conversation.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Just staying on the masking for a moment and expanding, do you think if you do mask and you do suppress, if you're a man, your feelings, or in any way you hide who you are, over decades, can you forget who you actually are?
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah. So I think, you know, I, I mean, uh, from my perspective, I think I was, um, so young when I started to do that subconsciously that I never really knew who, who me was. Um, I think I've got ideas of it now, you know, so I, I, I, I react with a lot of, you know, try and react with a lot of humor. I don't remember jokes, I don't remember details, I don't remember facts, but I th- I can jump in with a quip-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes
- RFRich Forbes
... um, o- out of nowhere. Um, uh, and usually some level of appropriateness is applied to that. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
Um, but you know, I think there are others that I've spoken to who, you know, maybe they didn't have, um, childhood trauma, who were able to be themself for a certain length of time, and then started to go out into broader communities, maybe school, maybe university, maybe work, who then started to mask because they found that the reactions they were getting, you know, particularly perceived reactions, you know, they've, they've... That somebody curled their lips slightly, or their eyebrow raised slightly or, you know, they, they, they glanced away for a second. Those little things, you know, are the things that trigger you to go into masking territory. So if they've been doing it for a protracted period of time, yes, it can be a means to kind of lose who you are, particularly if you're in those environments all the time. But I think, you know, a lot of us- I think it's not necess- With a lot of this, it's about, it's about the tools, isn't it? So masking, I think, can be a tool, you know, and it can be a very useful tool, and it's more about learning how and when to apply those masks and when you are safe to take those masks off rather than just simply about, "I've got ADHD, I'm gonna take my mask off now, and everything's gonna be fine."
- APAlex Partridge
What happens if you use that tool
- 25:06 – 28:22
What Years of Masking Really Costs You
- APAlex Partridge
too much? Like, what, what do you think is the cost of years of pretending when deep down you're struggling underneath?
- RFRich Forbes
Well, I mean, the cost is burnout, um, because, you know, because we, because of, you know, the rumination, the, you know, the multi-lane highway, I've burnt myself out numerous times. I was, I was actually just burnt out [chuckles] last week, you know. And, and it was, you know, uh, there was, you know, kind of a 48-hour period where I just needed to, you know, become a penguin in a quilt kind of thing and just hide myself away from the world. Um, and that was caused by, you know, working a full-time job, still trying to define my purpose in terms of coaching, in terms of, you know, building communities of people that feel safe being ADHD, running content for ADHD, coming up with the ideas, and I think, you know, all of those are different masks that I wear, and I f- You know, that physically, when you're constantly thinking about all of those things and another thought creeps in and you take that thought and you go take the next thought and the next thought and the next thought, you're using up energy, you know. And we use up energy to make a decision to brush our teeth, to go to the toilet, to, you know, comb our hair. You know, people who don't have this brain, um, don't have that. They do it on automation. We don't do it on automation. So we're already tiring ourselves out before we even get to, you know, h- masking and hiding stuff.
- APAlex Partridge
Masking, to me, seems to be a shield that you put up in order to protect yourself from rejection sensitivity dysphoria. You, you mentioned it briefly before. Um, and I think you heard me share this story when we spoke at that company before.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
I attend Alcoholics Anonymous as my sobriety tool.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
And I share this story with absolute permission, and I've changed her name. I was in a meeting, and there was a lady who said, "My name is Bethany, I'm an alcoholic, and I have ADHD. And I was sober for seven years, but last weekend I relapsed." And she said last weekend she was sat in the office Friday afternoon, ready to clock off for the weekend, and her email pinged, and she checked her email, and it said, "Bethany, have a lovely weekend. Can we have a quick chat on Monday morning?" And that was it.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
It was from her boss. And she catastrophized with thoughts such as, "Everyone in the office has tolerated me all this time. They all hate me. I'm useless, I'm a terrible human being, and I'm definitely gonna get fired on Monday morning."
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
And on the way home, she said the only thing that was soothing that catastrophic thought process was to go buy a bottle of wine, and she got absolutely drunk Friday night. She drank again Saturday night, and she didn't sleep Sunday night. She went into work Monday morning trembling-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... shaking, and she sat down in her boss's office. He came in, shut the door, and he said, "Bethany, I would like to offer you a promotion." In the absence of context and clarity, if there's any ambiguity, rejection sensitivity dysphoria will assume the worst case scenario.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
It will jump to the, the Armageddon case study, uh, and it will cause someone to, to spiral catastrophically fast-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... and in, like, her case, enough to derail seven
- 28:22 – 31:37
The Emotional Weight ADHD Adults Carry Every Day
- APAlex Partridge
years of sobriety. When you hear a story like that, what does it tell you about the emotional burden many ADHD adults are carrying?
- RFRich Forbes
Um, I mean, it's, it's... And, and, and again, particularly around undiagnosed, late diagnosed and untreated, uncoached people who aren't now f- hyperfocusing on understanding it. Um, again, I've got a, a client that I coach, um, similar sort of age to me, um, high up in, in, in his career, um, and he had, um, a similar sort of message. You know, it was like, you know, "I, I, I need you Monday afternoon," and that was it. Um, and it was actually to do a presentation that he, you know, knew full well what the detail was, what the call was, and very passionate about, but he didn't have any context. So he spent the entire weekend thinking, "My livelihood's at stake here, you know. I'm gonna go down the pan."
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. Yes.
- RFRich Forbes
You know, and he went through that. He wasn't, he's not an alcoholic. He hadn't, you know, um, managed to, um, uh, console himself with that. I think his was, was workaholism. Um, and you know, I hope he, you know, he, he probably won't mind me saying this, but, you know, his relations at home have been strained because he works, you know, a lot, and that's, the level of his job requires and the type of work that he's in requires that. Um, but, you know, the pressure that that puts on at home that he might be failing, and then combine that with the pressure at the work, with the con- context-free message, um, kind of sent him into a spiral and, you know, resulted in arguments and things at home. Um, we jumped on a coaching call and, you know, and you can see, you know, uh, quite early on in that, in his kind of coaching plan with me, um, he was quite distressed and quite kind of shaken up by the experience of the fallout with his wife and having to think about what was gonna happen when he got into the office on Monday morning and, and spoke with his CEO. Um, and we went through kind of, you know, the way that I, or the framework that I use to help, you know, deal with any kind of ADHD trait, and we went through that process, um, for him to kind of understand actually that was his brain lying to him in more cases. And, and we went through and looked at the evidence of what had happened during the day and during that week, and we looked at, you know, how that might actually change the view of what his brain was telling him. Uh, you know, and all of that comes really to, you know, trying to trigger your, your prefrontal cortex into action to deal with that situation logically, and you've gotta give that time. Um, you know, and, and it's, it, you know, it's tough. It's tough for ADHDers. They're that emotional strain because you're constantly, if you're constantly being told, you know, li- like you s- the 20,000 messages, if you're constantly being told, "You're not enough, you're too much, you're too loud, you're too quiet, you're too this, you're too that, you're too the other"- You overturn that already. You're not just, you know, receiving that message and then putting it to one side. You're ruminating it, you know. It's going over and over and over in your mind, and that takes energy, you know, out of your brain, out of your body, and it is exhausting
- APAlex Partridge
That's really brilliant advice, and we're actually getting really close now to you sharing the, the groundbreaking ADHD coping strategy that I heard you share on stage at that company that we spoke at together.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
But just before we get to that, do you have any RSD-specific coping
- 31:37 – 32:56
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- APAlex Partridge
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- 32:56 – 34:52
How to Calm Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria
- APAlex Partridge
to the episode. Do you have any RSD-specific coping strategies?
- RFRich Forbes
Yes. Yeah. So the, the other strategy you mentioned, like you say, is, is, it's all-encompassing for ADHD traits. Um, for, for RSD, look, what you've gotta do is, is, is think about this with some logic. You know, nobody can make the decision for you. You've gotta make the decision, but you've gotta do it from a place of calm. So the first thing we do, you know, we basically... I've got an anagram of SAFE, you know, which kind of resonates with RSD anyway. So the anagram is, is, is SAFE, and that stands for Stop, Adjust, Find Space, and Evidence. And that basically means, you know, for, for our brains, you know, we... It's, it's all about dopamine. It's all about the dopamine getting into the prefrontal cortex so we can think with logic instead of just emotion and fear. Um, and that stop, you know, is, is about literally stopping what you're doing in that moment. Adjust yourself. You know, um, there's the s- the common things that, you know, really trigger the, the vagus nerve, really trigger that calming thing, like a cold water splash or a different room or a different, you know, activity that you're doing. Do something that stops you being in that moment where, where your RSD is completely triggered. That's the adjust. And that find space is to get out, you know, into the open air. The open air's a great kinda dopamine provider as well. Again, we're just trying to trigger that process to get something into the prefrontal cortex that helps you think logically. And then when you find that calm space, and you can't really do this when you're not in that calm space, the E stands for evidence. So that's your point to then look for the evidence that either corroborates or cancels what your RSD is telling you. Nine times out of 10, the evidence you find will cancel the RSD out
- APAlex Partridge
I think this leads us nicely on to really the reason I was so excited to bring you onto the podcast today, and that's what I heard you say on stage when we did that talk together-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... that, that new piece of coping
- 34:52 – 38:52
A New ADHD Hack That Changes Everything
- APAlex Partridge
strategy that I've never heard before
- RFRich Forbes
It's another anagram. It's a catchall for, for all ADHD traits in the moment, and it's RAISE, R-A-I-S-E
- APAlex Partridge
RAISE, R-A-I-S-E. Okay. Let's start with R. What does that stand for?
- RFRich Forbes
So R is recognize, and that is just about you recognizing what your triggers are and, and that works all-encompassing for any ADHD trait, so recognizing what has sent you into a prastic- procrastination loop, what has sent you into an RSD loop. You know, uh, why are you sat motionless waiting for an appointment that's in six hours? It's recognizing what has triggered that moment
- APAlex Partridge
Fantastic. And what about A?
- RFRich Forbes
So A is about accepting kind of your neurology. It's about understanding that this is about your, your biology, your neurology that is causing that first thought, that immediate thought that is autonomous. Um, and that isn't about accepting so that you never have to change. That's about accepting to make your change easier to accommodate
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. So that's R, A. What about I?
- RFRich Forbes
I is implement. So this is about implementing a strategy in that moment that works for you, and it, you know, we'll... In coaching sessions, we talk about, um, what those strategies are personally for you, what works for you. So for, um, procrastination, for example, um, I work with a guy who, um, has some very important presentations to do for his organization, um, and often puts them off to the very last minute, and it's only when I explained that, you know, the ADHD brain runs on reward, urgency, and novelty that it triggered for him as to why he does that. Him having a strategy, you know, if he likes fizzy sweets, for example. Uh, and the reward thing, because we live in now or not now, the reward thing is about having it while you're doing. It's not about rewarding at the end because we can't see that. So it's about him having a bowl of fizzy sweets next to him while he needs to do this particular task or taking himself off to the cafe to do it so it's novel, you know. Or the urgency thing that he's already nailed 'cause he's doing it at the last minute at 11 o'clock at night. So it's finding the right strategy for you, um, that you can confidently put to use at every time that this triggers without getting bored of it, like us ADHDers can do of, um, of strategies that, that aren't designed for us
- APAlex Partridge
What about S?
- RFRich Forbes
So S takes us into systemize, and that's where that, that strategy is really important, that, that, that, that, um, mechanism that you're putting in is specifically something that's gonna work for you. Because systemizing it is about not just doing it for the first three times and then going, "Well, that works," and then getting bored. It's about engineering a cognitive path that is saying, "Yes, I am gonna do this. Every time my RSD triggers, this is what I'm gonna do. I am gonna go to a... You know, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna accept it, and I'm gonna find a safe space, and I'm gonna, uh, uh, you know, do the evidence check." So it is about getting into that regular process of going, "I know this is the trigger. That's my first reaction. My second reaction is to start going through the RAISE cycle. My third reaction is to then get my bowl of sweets to stop me procrastinating." But it's systemize so that you can make it a regular occurrence.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. And just finally, E.
- RFRich Forbes
E is about evolution. So it's your own personal evolution. So we've gone through the cycle, as we will do for every time your ADHD gets triggered, and this is medicated or unmedicated, um, is recognize that you've got the trigger. You then accept the neurology that has caused that trigger, and it's time to find a different second reaction. It's to implement, um, a, a mechanism that works for you, that you can repeat, and then it's to systemize that repeatable mechanism for you. Then over the course of time, you will find that that conscious cognitive, um, systemization of a process turns into a subconscious process.
- APAlex Partridge
Following on from that, one of the biggest realizations I've had since starting this
- 38:52 – 40:16
Why Success Never Feels Like Enough With ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
podcast is that some of the most successful people with ADHD still feel like they're failing. Why do you think that is?
- RFRich Forbes
I just think it's, it's because we always, we always need more. Um, and you know, if we, if we go back to the, to the prehistoric man, the hunter-gatherer, the pre-farmer, they were always thinking of new ways to hunt down bigger prey that was gonna last longer, or always have the area of vegetation that was always gonna give them the most sustenance. So it's inherent in our, um, evolved genealogy that we are always looking for more, looking for different ways to do things, 'cause that gives us our level of interest. So I think, you know, that starts it or stops it being a negative that we're looking for that, and starts it being a positive. But again, it's about learning how to really utilize that, uh, and u- utilize that as a strength. So always wanting more is fine, providing you also are able to accept that what you've delivered is enough.
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna move on to the most unpredictable and often the most fun part of the show. But before I do that, I wanna ask you this final question.
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Someone is listening to this right now. They're sitting in their car, they're exhausted. They think they're lazy, they think they're failing. They think they're never going to get their life together. What would you want to say directly
- 40:16 – 42:33
The Advice Every ADHD Adult Needs to Hear
- APAlex Partridge
to that person?
- RFRich Forbes
You are enough, and it's okay to want more. Um, and I think, you know... So that's the core of the message. I think that the, the depth of the message is about seeking help, you know? It's about stepping outside of... You know, it's not a comfort zone, because you are uncomfortable in your comfort zone. Um, but it's about stepping out and saying, "How do I, how do I understand more about this?" You know. Particularly if you're sitting in your car right now and you're kind of going, "I, I suddenly feel seen. I've heard, you know, this person talk from life experience, and now I feel seen, and I recognize all of those things in me," now's the time to then, you know, start looking at it in more depth. I won't say get yourself assessed, because it takes so long to get assessed in, in all capacities at the moment, but you don't necessarily need an assessment to progress. Um, so the thing I would say is start, you know? And that is the ADHD kind of way. We always start. We're great at starting. Um, and that is follow that through to, uh, do those traits register with me? How do I address those traits? Am I enough, you know, being me with those traits, and then also adjusting so that I can make use of them and thrive with them, rather than, you know, trying to squeeze myself into a, into a neurotypical pile?
- APAlex Partridge
Wow. Fantastic advice. Thank you, Rich.
- RFRich Forbes
Thank you.
- APAlex Partridge
We're gonna move on to the most unpredictable and often the most fun part of the show, which is the audience questions, and they live inside the Washing Machine of Woes.
- RFRich Forbes
Ah.
- APAlex Partridge
And it's called the Washing Machine of Woes because they are woes-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... questions from the audience, and they're in a washing machine because that represents memory loss. Because I always forget my clothes in the washing machine after the cycle's finished.
- RFRich Forbes
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
And I ask everyone, regular viewers and listeners will be very familiar, do you do that?
- RFRich Forbes
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah, the most used cycle on, on my thing is the refresh.
- APAlex Partridge
Right. [laughs] Yeah.
- RFRich Forbes
20-minute refresh.
- APAlex Partridge
The ink on the button has faded-
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... 'cause you've pressed it so much.
- RFRich Forbes
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Fantastic. I do use the Tiimo app, uh, which is the sponsor of the show, and they, they do help me to remember, but I am still a very much a work in progress.
- RFRich Forbes
I have actually just downloaded it, so that's quite-
- APAlex Partridge
Have you?
- RFRich Forbes
... quite coincidental.
- APAlex Partridge
Oh, brilliant. They are fantastic. They've just won App of the Year, I believe-
- RFRich Forbes
Wow
- APAlex Partridge
... on iPhone or Samsung. Um, this week someone has written in... Yeah, gosh, let's go through them. Not what I expected, but
- 42:33 – 48:03
The One Thing ADHD Adults Need to Stop Blaming Themselves For
- APAlex Partridge
very, very strong. Wow. What's something millions of people with ADHD blame themselves for that actually isn't their fault?
- RFRich Forbes
Do you know what? So the first word that crept into my head was everything. That's what we do. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
It's literally everything, you know.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- RFRich Forbes
Um, from the end of romantic relationships to failing, uh, a, a, an interview, to, um, losing a job, to changing a job too soon. You know, we blame ourselves for everything, and that's just the core of rejection sensitivity, which is actually, it's got our best interests at heart. It's just trying to protect us from threat, and so it throws these situations at us where we are naturally judgmental towards ourselves. So I would say everything.
- APAlex Partridge
So what about relationships? Do they blame themselves in that department?
- RFRich Forbes
Absolutely, 100%. And I think, I think especially, um, if you are kind of late diagnosed, so you have been In a relationship, um, pre-diagnosed, not really thinking that you're ADHD, but of course, your behaviors and your, you know, automated reactions are very much ADHD. Um, and I've, you know, I'm quite open about the fact that I've been married three times, so I've had two failed marriages. Um, and you know, I, you know, ha- for years have blamed myself, um, for them. You know, I think, uh, in the early years I didn't, you know, I didn't- I was quite sort of obstinate about that. But I think in relationship terms, when you realize kind of what ADHD does in terms of rejection sensitive dysphoria, in terms of, you know, all of those things, in terms of, you know... The biggest one I think for me, you know, and even in my current marriage, um, is, is you know, object per- permanence is something I blame myself for, because the housework, you know, gets done by my wife predominantly. She does a great job, and she feels it's very unfair that I don't do it. And since the ADHD diagnosis, I've realized that part of this is down to object permanence, and if I can't see that something needs doing, I can't think, "I'm gonna tidy that bedroom 'cause I think it might need doing." I don't think like that. I look at the bit of litter on the floor and think, "I'm gonna pick that up and put that in the bin." And that's why we see so many memes on social media of people picking up a piece of litter, taking it to the bin-
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
... and seeing a chip next to the thing and taking it to the, to the fryer-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
... and then, you know, going on that cycle, um, round the kitchen. So for relationships it is, you know, there is a massive amount of blame in terms of finding out your ADHD, finding what those traits and symptoms are that would've created a negative reaction, and then, you know, even worse, when it's gone past the end, then again, your RSD kicks in that you want that relationship to stay, and maybe-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- RFRich Forbes
... you're getting into limerence is the next part of RSD-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
... you know, and overburdening the love-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- RFRich Forbes
... you know, for, for someone, which actually just pushes them further away.
- APAlex Partridge
Is struggling to keep friends something people with ADHD blame themselves for?
- RFRich Forbes
I think so, yeah. I mean, personally speaking, and, you know, and I... It's only a recent realization that actually it's okay. I think there's a, there's almost a lot of pressure in society that you have this big group of friends and you always go on holiday every year and you do this, that, and the other. You live in each other's pockets. I think I've probably got maybe two, three close friends. At 51 years of age, I've lost track. Um, w- my person I consider my best friend, I've not actually been in a room with for eight years. Um, but we've known each other for 30 years, and we send each other a message once every, you know, two months or so. And, and he's, he's kind of the top bloke, um, mate for me. Um, but I think, you know, if you, if you're into that kind of idea that you should have lots of friends and you don't have a lot of people around you, and you can place a situation, whether perceived or real, around what pushed them away, um, then yeah, absolutely. You blame yourself. I've got, you know, there's a friend, um, again, I've known him for 20 years. You know, he was, um, kind of I suppose my protege when we were... One of, uh, one of the organizations, we worked together. Um, and I think, you know, at, at the time I was just diagnosed and, um, he isn't, very clearly isn't ADHD, and so I started to kind of separate kind of, you know... I got kind of those disapproving looks when I started talking about ADHD, so I started shutting down that conversation and then stopped, you know, kind of reaching out. But I think, you know, the more standard kind of thing is about, uh, a- again, it might come down to object permanence. They're not in front of you, so you don't think to give them a ring. You don't think to drop them a message to check in how they are all the time. Um, and that can be the biggest limiter to having that large group of friends, is that you're not... You know, everybody says, "Oh, you're... I'm always the one who's reaching out to you." You know. And, and it comes back to my, my dad. You know, I got a message as I was walking in, uh, this, this afternoon or this morning. Um, I was walking in. I got a message from my daughter and, and she said, "I hope you're sitting down." And I said, "I'm not. I'm walking. Why?" She said, "Because Grandpa messaged me without me messaging him first." [laughs] I went, "What?" I said, "Well, I bet he, I bet he talked about his, uh, his COPD first though, didn't he?" And she said, "No, he asked how we were." Which is, you know, that is him being, uh, an 82-year-old ADHDer who doesn't realize he is ADHD, um, actually stretching beyond ADHD and reaching out
- 48:03 – 54:46
Why Successful Women With ADHD Still Feel Like Failures
- RFRich Forbes
and seeing how somebody else is.
- APAlex Partridge
Why do so many successful women with ADHD secretly feel like they're failing?
- RFRich Forbes
This question is probably multi-layered, um, in the sense that they could be successful at hiding their ADHD or successful in their role, their business, their entrepreneurialship, whatever. Um, and s- uh, the main kind of group of, of ladies that I talk to on, on a regular basis all over the world, I've got a couple in Australia and America that are, you know, in, in a, in quite a struggling position, but their, their common theme is that they're in the same age range and, and they're in their kind of early 40s, so they're hitting this kind of perimenopause bit, and that's quite fundamental to, to this kind of, um, this, this question and the response to this question in the sense that, um, estrogen is a dopamine enabler. So throughout their lives, you know, women have these unpredictable hormone surges and drops and surges and drops, and when their, their body is flooded with estrogen, their dopamine flies, and, you know, and, and, and, and they're almost in a sense neurotypical, I guess, in a lot of cases. But when they're going through puberty and when they're going through perimenopause and they start hitting this dip, as well as when they hit the unpredictable hormone surges and their estrogen is off- Then that dopamine drops, and it starts to really expose and amplify their ADHD traits. Um, so the one side where we're talking about if they've been successful at masking their ADHD, it's because their estrogen is helping them produce more dopamine and manage their dopamine more effectively than, than perhaps a, a, an ADHD man, until they hit a certain point in their life. Um, the other side of it, 'cause there's lots of successful women, I think we know also that more entrepreneurs in the world are ADHD. You know, so those two things lie together, as well as some very, you know, incredible women in business and in, you know, particularly in places like tech and, and so forth. Um, and I think, you know, it comes back to the point that we've been making throughout, that, that sense of always wanting more, always wanting a different way to do things. You know, always looking for that to be more efficient, you know? And I think for women especially, this is about the constant se- battle of the sexes. You know, men, we've had a easy ride for so many millennia probably. You know, there are lots of, you know, tribes around the world that don't have that balance, but in, in, in Western society, we have that balance for so many years that men go to work and women stay at home, and I think part of that is that inbuilt desire to prove themselves, and to prove yourself, you've gotta be more than the male competitor in that situation. So I think it's driven by that, and that's why you can never... If you, if you, if you have a line of enough, you know, it's like an athlete. An athlete never says, "That's the speed I w- That's the 100 meters I wanna run." They wanna go, "I wanna get the fastest 100 meters I can, and 9.8 wasn't fast enough. I wanna get 9.7 next time."
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
So it's always that recurring thing, but I think it goes back to the point. You can be enough while also still wanting more, and that's part of our paradox.
- APAlex Partridge
It's all well and good being content in not seeing someone for a long period of time, and that being okay because that's how you both kind of operate and you can catch up every five to s- eight years, and it's like no time has passed. But that object permanence with people, when that person dies, if they die in one of these long gaps of no contact, perhaps it's a family member who you could have spoken to more, but maybe because of object permanence, you just didn't-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... and you thought they were always gonna be there. Can that be a source of blame and regret after that person passes away? "I wish I spoke to them more"?
- RFRich Forbes
I think it, I think it amplifies it. So I think, you know, from, again, personal experience and, you know, from a few people that I coach and from, you know, family members, um, we, we always have, I think, in the back of our minds, that grief. 'Cause I always think, "Mark, I should text him more." Um, he hates being called Mark, by the way.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- RFRich Forbes
He likes to be called Toby. [laughs] There is a reason for that.
- APAlex Partridge
Okay.
- RFRich Forbes
It's 'cause his surname's Tobeman.
- APAlex Partridge
I see. Right. Yeah.
- RFRich Forbes
So, so, yeah. And he definitely won't watch it, but I hope he does. Um, but yeah. So there's always that grief, I think. It's always sitting at the back of your mind. It doesn't matter how amplified it is, that you feel you should be reaching out more. But actually, as ADHD people, bit like being a hunter, we're focused on the tribe that's in front of us. Those are the people we've got the ability to protect, and therefore they're the ones that we are gonna protect. So our focus is on them, but that doesn't stop us thinking about the others. And then I think when, like, say, when death happens, you know, that grief kicks in more because now we can't do anything about it. When we, when we have, um, and this comes into the now versus not now clock. I've, I've created a picture of a clock that says now or not now. Um, and you know, where grief comes in, so in a, in a living person, we can always put it off. So it's always not now. "But I'll go and contact them tomorrow." Not now. Not now, not now. So it disappears. When somebody's died, it suddenly becomes, that now has gone, and there'll never be a not now that's in the future. The not now is always in the past. So that amplifies the grief, and I think that amplifies it beyond what a neurotypical person feels as grief, because we have a lot of blame that we then torture ourselves with, with the RSD, beyond just, "I'm very sad that this person is no longer on this planet," or, "This person has been through pain, and you know, is now, you know, ceases to exist." The grief part is very much, you know, a- amplified beyond just grief. It's also that self-torture of blaming that you was, you were the person who should have got in contact with them. Um, and I used to do that with my, with my dad. Um, my dad left when I was very young. We didn't see him an awful lot, and I, as an, as a young adult, um, used to say to myself, "I, I need to be the one that contacts him," you know. "Why am I not contacting him? He's, he's the older person in this relationship." And it was only in, in recent years that I thought to myself, "Well, actually, no," you know. "He should be reaching out to me as well," you know. "He should be interested in what I'm doing." And I think that's the same particularly, you know, ADHD adults of a certain age who've come from homes that were broken, that they didn't see much of one parent or anything of one parent, is a different, is a different level of grief because they couldn't do anything about it, but they felt that they should be able to do something about it.
- APAlex Partridge
I'm gonna move on to the third question, Rich, and this is following on from
- 54:46 – 58:18
The Biggest Myth About ADHD in Women
- APAlex Partridge
women with ADHD. What's the biggest misconception society has about women with ADHD?
- RFRich Forbes
Well, I think the biggest misconception that's still around is that women don't have ADHD, that ADHD is confined to young boys who are unruly. Uh, and I think that's the, that's the biggest misconception, even in women that have undiagnosed ADHD. Um, uh, that's the, you know, "I can't have it because I'm a woman." Um, and like I said before, you know, I think that comes down to that kind of hormonal interaction, um, between estrogen and dopamine is really key to that. Um, because with that heightened level of estrogen, supporting the dopamine gives an unreal kind of perspective. I think there's also an emotional context to it. So my daughter, um, in fact, two of my daughters are very much ADHD, I think, in my, in my mind. My, my daughter number two, who's 28 next week, and my daughter number three, who, uh, is 10, um, both exhibit lots of ADHD traits. Um, but from an emotional perspective, I think there's a sense that they need to feel and display more strength and be more restrained in a lot of ways. They can be emotional in an effeminate way, but actually, when it comes down to, um, the anger that boys often, um, display, and it may be a testosterone thing, I don't know. Um, when it comes down to the anger that my son can demonstrate when he's either coming down from his medication or he's, um, just in a, a massive overwhelm, he's very overt with it. Bang, you know. There's a, there's a, there's a punch on a wall, or there's a ball been slammed into the door somewhere. But my daughter takes herself off to a room and, um, just, you know, she loses herself in her iPad or in a book or, you know, she'll stay in the room, but you don't hear it. And because we don't hear it, you know, again, object permanence as a parent, we're not going, "Oh, maybe she's ADHD." We're looking at him who's making the noise, and it's a b- you know, it's like the classroom, isn't it? The classroom effect. You always look at the boy that's making the most noise and not the most studious one who's not making any noise. Um, and I think that's where we've gotta be careful about looking for those other hidden symptoms and traits of ADHD. Um, you know, she disappears into herself. You know, she can be in a book or in a, in the iPad, and I can be standing right next to her talking to her, and she won't hear me because she's blocked it all out. Um, i- in terms of time blindness, my third daughter especially is really time blind. "I've got 10 minutes to do this." Great. 20 minutes later, "Not done it." "Why have you not done it?" "'Cause I was doing something that was interesting and rewarding [laughs] and novel to me." You know, so I think, you know, that's, that's the challenge that women have, is that because boys have always been louder with their ADHD, um, they get the ones, you know, the, that have the tag and the label that are now, that it's not you're naughty, but you must be ADHD. And I think that goes to a certain degree towards those who have more of an inattentive ADHD style as well as men because they're not, and I was never the... My mum said, "You can't have ADHD because you weren't bouncing around as a kid. You weren't bouncy and loud." And, and then I started reeling off some things that were traits and symptoms that I had as a kid that she then started to realize that was true. Um, so I think it does affect both sexes, but definitely more, uh, women than, than men.
- APAlex Partridge
This is fascinating, Rich. I could talk to you for hours, uh, but we've run out of time.
- RFRich Forbes
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
This has been genuinely fascinating. I've got one more thing to do, a surprise for you.
- RFRich Forbes
Okay.
- APAlex Partridge
I'm gonna deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest.
- RFRich Forbes
Fantastic.
- APAlex Partridge
The previous guest wrote a letter to their younger self, and if I could deliver it to you now-
- RFRich Forbes
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... and if you could kindly read it
- 58:18 – 59:05
A Letter to My Younger Self
- APAlex Partridge
out.
- RFRich Forbes
Dear Maverick, you are a fighter, a social justice warrior. You feel you are unheard, you are not seen, you are insignificant. Well, let me tell you, you're not. You'll find people who will value, value you, elevate you, celebrate you, embrace you. Just hang in there and explore. You'll find your tribe, you'll find your strength, and you will be unstoppable. Stay in there, champ. You are going to move mountains. From your elder self.
- APAlex Partridge
A lovely message for the viewers to absorb. Richard, on behalf of everyone grappling to understand their brain, thank you so much.
- RFRich Forbes
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 59:05
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