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Why Therapy Fails Autistic & ADHD People! (And How To ACTUALLY Heal) | Dr Judith Mohring

Dr Judith Mohring is an award winning Cambridge-educated psychiatrist and psychotherapist specialising in ADHD, autism and mental health. In this episode, she explores why understanding yourself doesn’t always lead to healing, how overthinking can become a form of emotional avoidance, and what it really takes to reconnect with yourself after years of masking. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 02:13 “I don’t know who I really am” 03:54 Why understanding yourself doesn’t always lead to healing 08:09 Why you can understand your brain and still feel trapped 10:15 When analysing yourself stops you feeling 12:06 Analysing emotions vs processing them 16:34 Why ADHD can make therapy harder 19:26 Why ADHD brains analyse themselves so deeply 23:07 When hyperfocus turns inward 24:32 How masking disconnects you from yourself 28:21 Tiimo advert 29:49 Why years of therapy can leave you feeling the same 31:17 When therapy becomes another intellectual exercise 35:41 Where does healing actually begin? 36:33 Interoception: learning to feel what’s happening inside 38:59 How a therapist helps you feel safe 40:25 How ADHD and autistic people begin to heal 46:01 How to stop analysing and start feeling 47:18 How do you know if you’re healing? 49:09 The Washing Machine of Woes 49:52 Finding yourself after decades of masking 51:02 Do you find your true self — or create it? 53:00 Is overthinking a form of emotional avoidance? 54:05 A letter to my younger self Visit Judith’s website 👉 https://www.thenaturalpsychiatrist.com Find Judith on Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/adhded.with.drjudith/ Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Order Alex’s book about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 👉 https://linktr.ee/adhdchatter?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=9ffd8709-06df-444c-9936-c136fbd14d6e Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Judith MohringguestAlex Partridgehost
Aug 31, 202657mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:13

    Trailer

    1. JM

      Those of us with ADHD may find it harder to switch out of this part of the brain called the default mode network. This reflection on our role in the world, reflection on our emotions, our relationships with others, looking back and thinking, "Did I say the right thing in that situation? How would I do it better next time?"

    2. AP

      Why do some people spend years in therapy and still feel exactly the same?

    3. JM

      Therapy isn't really so much about knowledge. It's more about the experience of being together, being connected, and feeling things together in a safe way. And if you have masked for a very long time, you may be very good at not feeling, and your therapist may not pick up on that.

    4. AP

      If you've spent decades becoming the person everyone else needed you to be, how do you find your way back to yourself?

    5. JM

      Gosh, that takes us back to the beginning, doesn't it? The kind of how-

    6. AP

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [instrumental music] Judith, welcome back.

    7. JM

      Thank you so much, Alex. It's really great to be back. Thank you.

    8. AP

      Today's episode is all about why therapy sometimes fails people with ADHD and autism. And I know that's a, a bold statement because I know therapy helps a ton of people, but I've spoken to a lot of people in the ADHD Chatter community who have said that they've been to therapy, and even though they've learned a great deal about how their brain works, they don't feel any different.

    9. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AP

      And I think that really led me to ask a bigger question, and that's that after all of the knowledge that I have about ADHD, I know my traits, I know my coping mechanisms, but do I know who I actually am underneath? Like, who am I when I stop masking? And I think lots of people listening will have the same question about themselves. So I suppose to start with, before we get started, as a Cambridge-educated psychiatrist yourself and as someone who has helped thousands of people with ADHD,

  2. 2:13 – 3:54

    “I don’t know who I really am”

    1. AP

      if someone is sat opposite you and they say they don't know who they really are-

    2. JM

      Mm-hmm

    3. AP

      ... what do you hear?

    4. JM

      It's such a huge question, and I'm really glad you asked it because I think we're gonna have a great discussion. Um, and my experience is it's really common for people to say, "I'm not sure who I am." It's a really lovely therapeutic question. Um, and it's the beginning of a... I'm gonna use the word journey. I know it's a cliché, but we might come back to different models of what a journey is, whether it's a map-

    5. AP

      Sure

    6. JM

      ... whether it's a boat, whether it's a mode of transport. Because we're gonna talk about movement, both as in motion and also about escaping being stuck today.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JM

      And so if somebody's coming in and that's the beginning of their process of saying, "I don't know who I am," then it's just a really great place to begin-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JM

      ... I think. So let's begin.

    11. AP

      Yeah, let's do it. I mean, I think to expand on that point, I think I wanna show you something. And we've got two jars [laughs] on the table in front of us, and I'm gonna hold this one up first. This one is labeled as understanding.

    12. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AP

      This has got a ton of stuff in it, and this is what I think many people who perhaps listen to this podcast or read books, they understand about ADHD, they understand about dopamine, rejection sensitivity, masking, trauma, their nervous system, maybe their childhood, attachment styles, perfectionism, maybe anxiety, and addiction. But for some people, the emotion never gets processed. It just gets filed away as, "Okay, I understand that."

    14. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AP

      And I think the next jar on the table, this one's called healing.

  3. 3:54 – 8:09

    Why understanding yourself doesn’t always lead to healing

    1. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    2. AP

      And I think there's an assumption that if you fill up the understanding jar, that the healing jar automatically fills up. But why might that not always be the case?

    3. JM

      'Cause they're two different things. [laughs]

    4. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    5. JM

      But I mean, it's... I'm really, really glad that you started with the understanding one because so many of us will rush to knowledge, and I think it represents one of the ADHD strengths I'm discovering from... I work with lots of adults with ADHD in groups, and what I've learned is many of the adults that work in the groups with, with me and the team, um, really are brilliant at learning, really curious. And so it's like I'm playing to my ADHD strengths. Give me the knowledge. Let me understand-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. JM

      ... why, why, why, why, why. And I love that. It's like, great, we're here 'cause you're starting with why. Um, now, why is a brilliant thing to start with, but it's not gonna get us to over there. And can I, can I pick up your understanding jar?

    8. AP

      Yes, please do. Yeah.

    9. JM

      Sorry, I'm gonna try and pick it up.

    10. AP

      Yeah, let me know.

    11. JM

      Yeah. Thank you. Because when we have the understanding, and this is where I began, I talked to people about how I started my ADHD journey, um, thinking I know a lot about ADHD 'cause I trained with the UK Adult ADHD Network. I'm a, an expert in ADHD. And I thought, "I understand ADHD. Why am I not able to get myself better?" You know, physician, heal thyself and all that stuff.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. JM

      And it was essentially I've got all this knowledge, but I need to get it out, and I need to kinda put it in sequence, almost as if we're kinda doing a map. Yeah. So it's like, you know, you start with all this understanding, but actually what you've gotta do is go, "Well, which bit am I gonna start with first?" And it, it varies from person to person, but it's like you've gotta kinda start over here and go, "Well, let's get the bits out, and let's actually walk this walk. Let's do the journey." These are gonna go up-- blow everywhere. See, that one says trauma. It might be that somebody chooses to start with their trauma.

    14. AP

      Mm.

    15. JM

      It might be that somebody chooses to start with, with dopamine. It might be that somebody chooses to start with more of a knowledge-based process. But in essence, what we're doing when we're working therapeutically with, with somebody, whether we're working in group or individually, is we're walking the walk together. So we're not just sitting on our own with a big jar of knowledge and not unpacking it and going-

    16. AP

      Mm

    17. JM

      ... "Well, I know everything now." We're unpacking it and going, "Well, now that I know that, how does that relate to me? What does that mean? And, and how can I process that with another human being?" 'Cause that's how we gradually move towards self-acceptance and self-knowledge, and I'm not sure healing exists as a destination. I think it might be a bit like the Odyssey, where we're heading off for some kind of mythical island, and I wonder if where we're going might be self-acceptance, self-understanding, and more of an ability to be with ourselves.

    18. AP

      Mm.

    19. JM

      But it is totally about mapping it out and going, "Right, okay, here's another step on the, on the journey. How do I move forwards?" Rather than being stuck back here going, "I know everything there is to know, and why am I not healed?" It's a different process.

    20. AP

      Wow. Yeah, it's so interesting. I think we were speaking off-camera, and as conditions, as humans we're almost conditioned to think that e- everything that has a start, has an end, and if something isn't working, then there must be a fix to it. It's almost like, okay, you know, the TV isn't working, let's go fix it, or the car's broken down, let's take it to a mechanic and we'll get it sorted. But you're saying that in order to heal as a human being who has all of this trauma perhaps, and a load of understanding, it's more of a journey to get from that f- state of, uh, of recognizing and understanding how you work to truly believing and recognizing that you are on a path to feeling healed?

    21. JM

      Yeah, that it's much more of a kind of process rather than a single, "Well, when I know this, then it will all be better." So I think we get, also get a little bit caught up in, I talk about the pill paradigm, where if I take an antibiotic, my infection goes away. If I take a Valium, I feel relaxed.

    22. AP

      Mm.

    23. JM

      If I take my ADHD medication, I feel that I can focus. Those things may all be true, but that's not the same as then going, what is the journey that I'm going on therapeutically or philosophically in terms of coming to know who I am in the world? And that really, really takes time, whether you do it through therapy or whether you do it in other ways.

    24. AP

      Understanding, therefore, clearly isn't all that you need. I'm, and I'm sure there's many people listening and, and watching this podcast who recognize and understand that they perhaps have various challenges with addictions, or they are impulsive.

  4. 8:09 – 10:15

    Why you can understand your brain and still feel trapped

    1. AP

      But are you saying that knowing exactly why you behave doesn't stop you from sometimes feeling like you're trapped?

    2. JM

      Uh, very much so, actually. I think just coming back to that, this, this sort of knowing and also being trapped is often an, an early experience where you're like, "Okay, so I know all this now, that's great, and yet I'm stuck or trapped?" And that's very much coming back to this, this kind of understanding, knowledge thing-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JM

      ... where it's like, well, I, I know all this now, but what does it actually mean? Um, and it's how do we then move forward? Um, and one of the, I guess one of the problems with this kind of the understanding model is that understanding is a starting point. It's the awareness. So we talk in our model about awareness and regulation, that we need to know what's going on and be able to pause and raise our awareness, and then we can begin to make choices about what we do next. But until we understand and we're aware, often we can't necessarily have the capacity to make those next choices. So the knowledge is a great starting point, but it is only a starting point that's around awareness and understanding.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JM

      And then it's about how can I make it safe to move forward? 'Cause there's often really good reasons why you might not want to move forward, because, you know, we picked out the trauma piece there. Might be painful. You might need a safe relationship to explore that in. So we shouldn't be un- unkind to ourselves if we're feeling stuck.

    7. AP

      It seems to me that lots of humans perhaps, we, we take the path of least resistance. What- whatever is gonna be the most emotionally painless experience-

    8. JM

      Mm-hmm

    9. AP

      ... that's the road that we take-

    10. JM

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... like subconsciously. Could it be the case that so many of us have become so good at analyzing ourselves? Like we're very good at zooming out and perhaps over intellectualizing what we're going through. We're very good at intellectualizing ourselves that we actually stop feeling ourselves, and what I mean by that is we stop experiencing the, the pain, the love, the, the, the f- the emotion.

  5. 10:15 – 12:06

    When analysing yourself stops you feeling

    1. AP

      Is that possible, that you're just so good at intellectualizing and understanding your brain that you've actually stopped feeling yourself?

    2. JM

      So there's, we talk about intellectualizing as almost a, it can be seen as a defense mechanism, as a way of kind of retreating into logic and, and, and thought, as a way of keeping feelings at bay. And feelings are called feelings 'cause they hurt. So they can lift us up, but they can also drag us down. And so it's very rational to go, "Look, actually right now I'm gonna go into this kind of prefrontal cortex, cognitive, linguistic, logical, rational response." Um, and that's okay some of the time, but it is about having the balance between the intellectual and also the more emotional. And many of us get to the stage, particularly if there's a lot that has gone on, where we may very well not want to dip into feeling because there's a lot to process, or we can't speak the language that our emotions are trying to speak. So the, the intellectualization can become a pattern-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JM

      ... that we get stuck in, definitely.

    5. AP

      This is where it gets so interesting, and I think I've never related to s- anything more. I saw a piece of content and it said, "Living inside your own head-"

    6. JM

      Mm-hmm

    7. AP

      ... like experiencing the world almost like you are inside your own head and you're looking out through your eyes-

    8. JM

      Mm-hmm

    9. AP

      ... as if they were a, a pair of windows, and you're able to be in your head, and you're able to process social encounters. But then you walk away from that, and you're, you find yourself, like even though you've experienced the emotion, you've experienced the humor or the anger or the jealousy in a particular moment, you're analyzing it inside your own head to the point where it's

  6. 12:06 – 16:34

    Analysing emotions vs processing them

    1. AP

      overwhelming. Like is, is analyzing emotion like that, is that the same as processing the emotion?

    2. JM

      Um, gosh, so I don't know if I have a definition of processing emotion beyond what I've learned from doing therapy and ha- being in therapy. And I suppose, I think when we're thinking about emotion, we might think about it, we might ruminate on it, we might use words to, to analyze it, we might use words to name it, but then as we process it, we might experience it and let it in, and we might begin to have a feeling, and feelings tend to occur within the body. We may or may no- not know what our body's doing, but we may get some kind of internal sensation. So it's not just up here. Processing emotion is like allowing lightning to pass through you and be grounded. So I'll often say when we really process emotion, we have to allow the energy to pass through.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JM

      And allowing that to happen safely, and I use the lightning metaphor there as a kind of, as a real kind of idea that it actually can take time to allow us to ground difficult things, and takes practice to connect the different bits. Um, and l- learning to do that takes time, which comes back to this idea of it's a process. Processing is a process.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JM

      You can't... And you can't do it on your own. You generally need other people to help you co-regulate.

    7. AP

      That's so fu- funny. I, I, I almost think that I am obsessed with processes-

    8. JM

      Okay

    9. AP

      ... to the point where it's like I, I, I truly believe that I would reach the criteria for an autism assessment. I'm, I'm going through that process now, but I'm very, very analytical to the point where I understand my emotions. I overintellectualize them. But I always wondered, is that a defense mechanism? Can I almost be hiding behind, uh, uh, over processing them, and therefore not wanting to actually face them?

    10. JM

      Wow. I think, I d- look, I think we're all very different-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. JM

      ... in that some people will feel, some people will really feel the feelings or have a natural capacity to, you know... It's, I sometimes feel like feelings are a bit like water kind of springing up into the soul.

    13. AP

      Yes.

    14. JM

      And some people really kind of feel that. They feel the joy bubbling up, they feel the sadness bubbling up. And others don't so much, and others also can feel it bubbling up, but it gets stuck. So we all vary. Some of us will have a sense of being stuck. There's something that we want to express. Others will have a feeling that you go inside and there's not, not much there. The inner experience of emotion is, is really variable, I think. So who knows, Alex? I don't know-

    15. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    16. JM

      ... whether, I mean, what, what lies in the future, but you may find there are kind of wells of emotion that you tap into that you never knew you could.

    17. AP

      I don't, I don't know if, if, uh, how unique that experience is of feeling something analytically, like being very aware that you'd just been to an event, you came across as a bit awkward, and you're able to see that, but you don't necessarily feel it. Uh, like how common is it to... Is the brain making a conscious decision to think about a feeling rather than just feeling the feeling?

    18. JM

      There are reasons why we might make a conscious decision to think about a feeling rather than feeling it. Definitely. So there's sometimes we defend ourselves for good reason. Defenses exist for a reason. So if something difficult's happened, and maybe it reminds you of something difficult from the past, you might very well switch to analysis because it's useful, because actually you're defending your- yourself for a reason. We talk a lot in the groups I run about procrastination, and actually we just had a group talking about procrastination and why were we procrastinating, and half the examples, when we actually dug into why people were procrastinating, there was a strong emotion to do with loss or bereavement. So actually, we were procrastinating for good reason, and I think the same is true of kind of intellectualization. Sometimes retreating to the intellectual is a hugely safe thing to do when actually moving towards the emotional is either unknown territory or, or feels dangerous, and it's the un- the unknown. I mean, I mentioned maps and things. I think one of the things that's so difficult about this sort of conversation work is that we're talking about how we map our inner experience, and that's almost a philosophical question.

    19. AP

      I wanna get a little bit deep here-

    20. JM

      Mm-hmm

    21. AP

      ... and just really zoom in. So as we know, ADHD brains, we can overthink the world. I think many of us are, are guilty of overthinking. But sometimes that overthinking can often turn inwards.

  7. 16:34 – 19:26

    Why ADHD can make therapy harder

    1. AP

      Why do you think having ADHD makes everything we're speaking about today even harder?

    2. JM

      I think, you know, I've mentioned strengths a few time- times throughout this, this episode, and I think it's because, as we know, those of us with ADHD may find it harder to switch out of this part of the brain called the default mode network, which is where many of these, these things sit, this reflection on our role, uh, in the world, reflection on our emotions, our relationships with others. So sort of looking back and thinking, "Did I say the right thing in that situation?" Uh, and that imagination that goes with that and thinking, "Well, c- how would I do it better next time?" And we know that when we, uh, when people develop conditions like OCD, there are differences in the default mode network in the way that it functions, and certainly in those of us with ADHD, it's harder to sometimes to switch out of default mode back into the, "Never mind what I did yesterday, I must get on with my laundry."

    3. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    4. JM

      That's harder. It's like you just get caught up in the, "I wonder what he did think. Oh, shit, I've missed the train."

    5. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    6. JM

      You know? So, um, it's, it's probably to do with slight differences in neurobiology.

    7. AP

      Yeah. Gosh, I, I... You would think I'd be better at that by now, the whole washing machine thing. I woke up this morning, walked past my l- washing machine, and it was full from yesterday's cycle.

    8. JM

      What a surprise.

    9. AP

      Even though I do the Washing Machine of Woes in this podcast every single week-

    10. JM

      [laughs]

    11. AP

      ... I still fall victim to out of sight, out of mind. [laughs]

    12. JM

      So I did something last week. I changed a bed at home. I was like, "I've made the bed, I've made the bed. Look, go me, I've made the bed. I can't do this. I've made the bed."

    13. AP

      Yeah.

    14. JM

      And then my daughter came in and went, "That's my bed linen." I'm like-

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. JM

      ... "Is it? Is that yours?"

    17. AP

      Yeah.

    18. JM

      My goodness. Amazing. Anyway, it's clean.

    19. AP

      Yeah

    20. JM

      It's on the wrong bed.

    21. AP

      Oh, good.

    22. JM

      So-

    23. AP

      It's nice to know. Even people who talk about ADHD day in and day out, we still fall victim to some of the challenges, which I think is quite soothing in a way.

    24. JM

      Well, it- th- I think it's that whole stepstool analogy, that if you're not very tall, you're always gonna need a stepstool to reach for the top shelf.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. JM

      And it doesn't matter how many times you go to that top shelf, you're still gonna need the stepstool, and you might become a specialist in different stepstools, and you might have lots of different ones and go, "This one folds. This one's like this. I've got a wooden one over here that I've just painted." You get really into the kind of detail, and then obviously you get a bit bored 'cause of your ADHD, and you forget the stepstool. You still can't reach the top shelf. So I think it's forgiving ourselves for the fact that no matter how much you know, these are not easy things to just fix.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. JM

      It's not like a kind of, "Oh, I can fix it." It's like, no, this is... it's not hardwired. You can change things a bit. There is neuroplasticity, but certain things may always be a struggle, and that's okay.

    29. AP

      Yes.

    30. JM

      Forgive yourself.

  8. 19:26 – 23:07

    Why ADHD brains analyse themselves so deeply

    1. AP

      question. Do you think people with ADHD, do you think we have a natural pull towards analyzing ourselves?

    2. JM

      I s- I suspect so. I suspect so, and I think it's, a- again, going back to the groups we run, we often, um, look at the strengths throughout, and there's these strengths in kind of reflection, learning, curiosity, and that is helpful for some things, but maybe less helpful if there's a thing that you think, "Oh, I'm... this is what's wrong with me. I must analyze and come up with a perfect plan to make it better-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JM

      ... and then I'll be, I'll be perfect." Um, and I talk about people with ADHD can be a bit like dream polishers. We'll have this amazing dream of, "One day I will know that the laundry's done, and where the bed linen is, and whose belongs to who, and the bed will be perfectly made," or whatever it is. This kind of dream polishing. We're good at proce- we're good at imagining what would be perfect, but then the actual doing of it's much harder.

    5. AP

      Yes. [laughs] I would, I don't know, it's like I have a dream that I will buy a notebook, and I will still be using it in four months' time, or I will buy that new domain, and in six months it will still be active. I'll still be paying for it [laughs] but probably just would've abandoned the business idea.

    6. JM

      Well, yeah, and that's, but that's okay, 'cause again, it's those strengths things.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JM

      There are certain strengths that come with these particular executive function struggles.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. JM

      So we've just been doing the executive function group, and we've been talking a lot about the things that we all find difficult, and a lot of us are really strong in imagination, a lot of us are really interested in learning, and we're really curious. But then actually the implementation of the plans, you know, the planning is good, the execution is more tricky.

    11. AP

      Yeah.

    12. JM

      And it's almost like there's too much imagination in relation to the other things, and that's just the way we are.

    13. AP

      Do you think getting an ADHD diagnosis later in life, does that make the sort of self-analyzing stronger?

    14. JM

      Um, I'm not sure if it makes it stronger 'cause I think actually when we're younger, we tend to be very self-conscious. It's a normal part of adolescence to be really hyper-aware. But I think what it can do is it gives you more material to analyze, and that can mean that the process of kind of, uh, now it all makes sense, and kinda going, "Oh, and that. Oh, ooh, and that.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. JM

      Crikey, oo, also that." All of those moments, those light bulb moments, there are more of them, so then you might look back and go, "So I left every job. So I sacked myself from jobs. So I moved house 17 times in six years. So I didn't manage to complete this exam, that exam. I failed exams repeatedly, so I had to repeat. Okay, so I've never been able to go to the gym." You know, and those are just my examples. It's like so many things that you look back on 'cause it's this whole lifetime of just, ah, that little micro screw-up or that little micro excitement-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. JM

      ... that was all, all the way through was that was, ah, it's how I am. I once bought a, um, chest of drawers on the way to work, and I rang my boyfriend and went, "Morning, I bought a chest of drawers." He went, "It's quarter past nine in the morning. How have you managed that?"

    19. AP

      [laughs]

    20. JM

      I went, "Well, there was a market, and I saw this lovely chest of drawers, then I got talking to the man, and it was really nice, and it's really gorgeous wood, and it's been beeswaxed," and it's like, oh, my Lord.

    21. AP

      [laughs]

    22. JM

      [laughs]

    23. AP

      It's like that chain of events that takes you off-

    24. JM

      Yes

    25. AP

      ... on a bit of a side quest, and then-

    26. JM

      Major side quest

    27. AP

      ... you get home with the chest of drawers, and you're like, "Oh, I didn't buy the milk that I went out for."

    28. JM

      What milk?

    29. AP

      Well, yeah. [laughs]

    30. JM

      Oh, milk. Oh, yeah, sorry. [laughs]

  9. 23:07 – 24:32

    When hyperfocus turns inward

    1. AP

      that hyperfocus, what happens when that turns inwards?

    2. JM

      Um, it can be crippling, I think. It can make us very self-aware, very self-critical. We see a lot of, uh, you know, in the groups, lots of adults talking about the experience of being constantly almost hypervigilant around, "I'm doing it wrong, I've done this wrong, I've too much, I've said too much. Oh, my God, I've done it again." So it can be quite crippling, um, and it can also get us feeling really, really stuck. Um, and because humans exist in relation to each other, it can mean it's harder for you to take in the good from other people 'cause you're so busy thinking about yourself, or it can mean it's harder for you to connect with others 'cause you're busy. And it's not a sort of narcissistic sort of obsession with self. It's more a kind of self-critical, like, "Oh, am I getting it right?" Um, so I think it can be quite tricky when the hyperfocus is extended to the self.

    3. AP

      I think you've said something which opens up almost a Pandora's box of, of discussion, struggling to connect with other people, and- People with ADHD, I think, are experts at artificially connecting with other people. They, they put on this character called Normal. They can go to a social event, they can, they can be in a relationship, but it might not actually be themselves who is underneath the mask that is actually connecting with the person that's stood right in

  10. 24:32 – 28:21

    How masking disconnects you from yourself

    1. AP

      front of them. How can years of masking teach people to disconnect from what they're actually feeling? Can the mask be so thick that your emotions are completely trapped deep inside you?

    2. JM

      I'm gonna slow right down and go right to back to the beginning of that question, and you may need to ask me the question again, because you're talking about lots of really interesting things in the Pandora's box, and the first piece is around this idea of, um, sort of disconnect from emotion and not connecting. And I suppose my experience of working, you know, with lots of adults with ADHD is that, um, sometimes we actually really connect, but it's almost non-verbal. We can feel a huge amount in the relationship or in the atmosphere, but we may not be able to put it to words or know what it means, and it's not quite the same as what's coming in the actual spoken language or the behavior. So sometimes people, neurodivergent people, both those with autism and ADHD, have a huge, hugely developed sixth sense, a sense of, "What's going on here?"

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JM

      Um, and so we've got to work with that and hold a space for that, and that can be super distracting. And then we've also got to work with the, and yet this is what we are doing now, and in this room, we are doing this. So now we are in a cocktail party, and I must talk to you, and yet instinctively I know that you are very uncomfortable, and I'm not sure why. Is it me? And I think that's hugely distracting, and it makes it very hard to be fully present with yourself or with the other. Um, I suppose that's one of the first things I want to say. We often think we're not good at emotion, but it may actually just be that there's a lot of emotional experience going on surface, and we don't yet know what can be brought in. So sometimes a person with autism might be criticized for being too honest, but they're simply saying what they feel.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. JM

      Or sometimes the person with ADHD might be criticized for being distracted, but they're holding something that others may not be aware of. Does that make sense?

    7. AP

      It does, yeah. It makes total sense. I think I relate to it. You sort of-- You, you've got this sixth sense. You're able to pick up on energy that perhaps many people miss. You can notice a shift in someone's tone, or you can detect if someone's not being genuine. I think it can give you a great sense of judge of character. If you walk into a party, for example, and you're having a conversation with someone, and y- [chuckles] and there's a part of your sense that you, you think, "That person over there, I haven't spoken to them yet, but I can tell they don't like me." If you're constantly scanning the room, maybe subconsciously, and you're totally aware of everyone's opinion of you because you just have this instinct, can that be a blessing or a curse?

    8. JM

      It's, it's an awful lot to process. It can be a blessing. So, um, you know, in certain fields of work, it's-- uh, thinking back to kind of working as a clinical psychiatrist, which I used to do a lot of, you'd work with people, and you'd have a s- a sort of felt sense, which you would then offer as something that could be interpreted and worked with and saying, "I'm, I'm feeling this. I wonder if, is that true? Is that right?" Um, so the felt sense can be a real blessing, but it-- where it's a curse or where it's difficult is it's an awful lot to process. And we haven't talked so much about burnout today, but I know we, we know burnout's a huge issue. Processing all of that sensory information and trying to bring it into consciousness or not is a lot of work. It's exhausting. It's really, really exhausting, and also checking the facts as well. Sometimes you mentioned about, "I know that person doesn't like me." We might go into a situation and perce-- and see that somebody's having an emotional response and assume it's to do with us, but it may not be. So it's kind of-- it's, there's just so many different layers of kind of processing that have to take place, and that's really exhausting.

  11. 28:21 – 29:49

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

      So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus, but I promise it's worth it. Our sponsor is Tiimo, the best organizational tool for neurodivergent people. Tiimo wasn't named iPhone App of the Year in 2025 by Apple for no reason. It's the ultimate planning partner, gently helping you turn the chaos in your head into a day that actually feels doable, a day you might even look forward to. Tiimo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains, and you can tell. It supports the stuff ADHD brains can find hardest, managing time, planning what needs doing, prioritizing tasks, staying focused, and actually finishing the thing. And the great news is Tiimo is now back on Android. The app on Android is still being built up to match the iOS experience with even more features in the works. So if you're an Android user, and you've been waiting to try it, you can now use Tiimo's core features too, including your daily plan, multiple to-do lists, and AI prioritization to help you figure out what to focus on first. Tiimo offers a visual way to plan your day without relying on willpower, memory, or a million sticky notes, helping you break down your daily agenda into something clear, calm, and actually possible. Give it a go, and use the link in my bio for thirty percent off. Just a note, though, the code only works in the web browser, not in the smartphone app. Back to the episode. I think we've covered pretty well why people with ADHD feel trapped inside their own head.

    2. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      But I think this begs quite an uncomfortable question.

  12. 29:49 – 31:17

    Why years of therapy can leave you feeling the same

    1. AP

      Why do some people spend years in therapy and still feel exactly the same?

    2. JM

      Um, it is a really, really good question. Um, and I think it, it speaks to the fact that, um, therapeutic relationship's really important, so finding a therapist who you trust is important. Because we talked about understanding, which we might call knowledge.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JM

      And therapy isn't really so much about knowledge. It's not about knowing stuff. It's more about the experience of Being together, being connected, and feeling things together in a safe way. And if you have masked for a very long time, and I know this myself from being in therapy, you may be very good at not feeling, and your therapist may not pick up on that. So you need a therapist who can help you kind of take off the mask, and this is particularly difficult if you're clever. So lots of-- I mean, not just clever, but there are lots of people who are good at masking. You don't have to be clever to do it. Sorry, that sounded, sounded bad. But, um, I know myself from having worked, you know, sometimes with people who are kind of clever and good at masking, it can take some time to really, A, create the safety psychologically and emotionally, and B, to, to actually do that little shift. Because now we're moving away from, "This is what I know," and knowledge is power, and that feels quite powerful.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. JM

      And now we're moving into, "And how do we feel together? What does this mean to be together and to be related in this way?"

    7. AP

      So, so interesting.

  13. 31:17 – 35:41

    When therapy becomes another intellectual exercise

    1. AP

      Is there a danger that therapy can just become another intellectual exercise? I, I spoke to a, a man, and he said a th- a psychologist once told him that he didn't feel his emotions, he thought them. And he said that he went into a therapy session with a 60-page document that he had written before the assessment. He had completely, at least in his mind, like, he had understood what his issues were. He knew he was a, an addict. He knew he was depressed. He knew the theory, but he went in 60 pages, and he described everything in his brain very analytically.

    2. JM

      Mm.

    3. AP

      Like, does that actually do anything helpful? Is there a risk that it's just overanalyzing and, and therapy really needs to work, like we were speaking earlier, it's like starting that journey towards the healing rather than overintellectualizing everything.

    4. JM

      You told me that story earlier, and I was left with a really sad feeling, a really strong feeling of sadness because what I was hearing was someone who was working very hard on their own to try and solve the problem and coming to the therapist almost going, "Well, I've, I've, I've solved the problem. The, the algebra, the formula's done."

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. JM

      "The algorithm's written. I'm no further forward." And the sadness comes from all those lonely hours that person spent possi- I mean, look, possibly it was enjoyable, the pursuit of the knowledge, the, the writing of the algorithm, the creating of the formula, but the isolation that comes from that, the idea that we might solve our problems entirely on our own and how it disenfranchises the therapist and the client, 'cause it's like, "If you know the answer, how can I help you?"

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. JM

      "What are you here for?"

    9. AP

      Is that the difference between a, a, a therapist and a good therapist? H- what does a good therapist look for if they're trying to see perhaps if someone is overanalyzing their situation rather than actually healing, apart from bringing in a 60-page [chuckles] document?

    10. JM

      It really-- it's funny, it really moves me w- almost in this relationship to go, I wonder if through the podcast you and I are trying to understand our own ADHD.

    11. AP

      Yes.

    12. JM

      Whether this podcast is a-- because I often think we do our own work through the, through the, through the actual work that we do, we're doing our own work. And so the therapist is the one who brings the attention, the focus to right now. So in this conversation, perhaps you're doing some work about what does it mean to analyze versus to feel.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. JM

      What do you think?

    15. AP

      I always find myself almost like a fly on the wall in my own lived experience all of the time. Like, in this conversation, I'm, I'm thinking, "Does she like me?" [laughs]

    16. JM

      [laughs]

    17. AP

      "Am I, am I, am I listening enough? Am I responding appropriately? Is it-- when's it my turn to talk?" There's an undercurrent of anxiety which I'm super aware of, and I'm, I take steps to manage it. I'm consciously doing breathing exercises when you're speaking, very subtly, but I'm aware of it.

    18. JM

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      It's all coming from an intellectual base. I'm not feeling the anxiety. I'm very aware that it's there.

    20. JM

      Yes, and for, so for me, there's the, the recognition that this is a conversation which is observed and filmed, and therefore we have to be thoughtful about the people who will hear it, but also about the safety of each other within this environment.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. JM

      Um, so there is-- it is, I suppose, the piece, the therapist that works effectively is the one that allows their client to shift slightly, that encourages the client to observe what's going on in the here and now. And what I heard you saying was in the here and now. This process is difficult in some ways, uh, because of the, the need to, to perceive and to regulate and to pause and to, yeah, all of those different things going on at once.

    23. AP

      So, so interesting. Yeah. I mean, you've really, really made me think, and I think everything w- we've covered so far-

    24. JM

      Mm-hmm

    25. AP

      ... really is explaining why some people get stuck. What we're gonna discuss next-

    26. JM

      Mm-hmm

    27. AP

      ... is actually life-changing. Earlier you said something that really stuck with me.

  14. 35:41 – 36:33

    Where does healing actually begin?

    1. AP

      You said healing doesn't actually begin in the mind.

    2. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      So where does it actually begin?

    4. JM

      Um, I guess what I mean by that is that healing is a kind of whole body process, and we've been talking a little bit around the difference between knowing and feeling and the difference between thinking and experiencing emotions, and emotions are experienced very much within the body. So we don't have emotions up here. We tend to have them here, but learning to feel them here is a process, and it's a practice. It doesn't-- for most of us, I don't think it comes completely naturally.

    5. AP

      And off camera, we were talking about something called interoception.

    6. JM

      Uh-huh.

    7. AP

      Is that what you mean by that, feeling your, your body and being in touch with

  15. 36:33 – 38:59

    Interoception: learning to feel what’s happening inside

    1. AP

      it?

    2. JM

      So it's really interesting 'cause interoception, um, is a, a, a, an emerging term. I'm not an expert in it, but my understanding it's, it's to do with being able to perceive physical processes. So how easy is it for you to, for instance, instead of just counting your heart rate like this, to feel your heartbeat? How easy, easy is it for you to feel, um, that you're hungry, or that you need the loo, or that you're thirsty, or that you're short of breath? Um, but I think what we're talking about here is a step almost beyond that, which is how easy is it for you to experience a feeling in the body and then be able to say, "I... My heart rate is up. Am I anxious, or have I just been for a run?" And those are two very different situations. And if I am anxious, is it because I'm afraid, or is it because I'm in danger? And again, those are two different... So there's so many layers, and when I've read some of the literature on interoception, it's very often kind of given as quite a basic, it's how can you perceive your heart rate? It's like, well, I can perceive my heart rate, but what does it mean?

    3. AP

      So moving on from that, does that also relate to emotions? Like, can you feel-

    4. JM

      Massively

    5. AP

      ... like, oh, you're feeling something. I know this is sadness, and I'm feeling that because-

    6. JM

      Okay

    7. AP

      ... I've just been broken up with.

    8. JM

      Yes.

    9. AP

      Is that a-

    10. JM

      Yes

    11. AP

      ... is it a case of you can feel your emotions within your body whilst still not necessarily actually f- feeling them?

    12. JM

      Yes. So this is where we get into the real therapeutic work.

    13. AP

      Yes, as I did

    14. JM

      And the best therapists I've met are the ones that can slow right down-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JM

      ... and co-regulate. I talked about lightning earlier. Emotions are energetic. Our, you know, our brains are basically electrical organs, electrochemical organs. Our bodies are energetic, and this is energy, sort of emotional energy flowing through us, and it can feel really painful. Feelings are called feelings because they hurt. They can bring us joy. They can bring us sadness. So to be able to be with another human with whom you can share that feeling and co-resonate to start with, which means to feel it together, and then to begin to ground it and go, "Ah, okay. So we may be both... You and I might both be feeling anxious 'cause we're recording a podcast."

    17. AP

      Yes.

    18. JM

      Yet simultaneously we're safe.

  16. 38:59 – 40:25

    How a therapist helps you feel safe

    1. AP

      How does a therapist put out the signals that tells that person that they are safe in that room?

    2. JM

      By finding safety in their own body, first of all. By noticing what's going on, so when we're with another person, by noticing what's mapped onto our bodies.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. JM

      Um, by picking up on the cues from their client, by pausing for long enough to allow things to settle because the mind rushes forward. It doesn't wanna sit with this difficult feeling, um, for good reason, 'cause it may be painful or may feel unsafe. And we have to have that co-regulation where we can say, "Let's just slow this down." And when I-- You know, when we talked about this bit of the session, we were talking about the need to, to slow it down and not rush into, "Oh, it's this intellectual." Interoception is huge, and we mustn't rush into it thinking, "Now I know about it."

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JM

      Because it's not a knowing, it's a being and experiencing.

    7. AP

      Gosh, yeah, this is so fascinating, and I think this, the, the shift that's, that we're gonna talk about now, I think it's the one that changes everything. So if healing begins by reconnecting with the body-

    8. JM

      Mm-hmm

    9. AP

      ... how does someone who's spent decades living inside their own head actually begin? Like, if we get practical, if we get like,

  17. 40:25 – 46:01

    How ADHD and autistic people begin to heal

    1. AP

      what's, what's one piece of advice somebody with ADHD or autism could make today to start them on their journey of healing?

    2. JM

      Um, I think slowly and curiously, and ideally in relationship with someone else-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JM

      ... with whom you feel a strong connection. It might be a pet. It might be a therapist. It might be a friend. Um, but to do so with a kind of gentle curiosity and, um, not to rush into it. We talk about slowing down a lot in the work that I do, and we are also aware that as we do that with our ADHD clients, what comes up is often difficult, and we welcome it because that's how the healing begins. You know, we talked earlier about you start on the journey.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. JM

      But imagining that journey is very different from being on it. You might imagine going up a mountain, but when you get there, it's really scary and dark and wet and cold.

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. JM

      So it is actually having the courage to be with others and walk the walk together, and when we get to the, the bits that feel really tricky, to actually allow ourselves to be, and I'm gonna say the word, to be moved.

    9. AP

      Right.

    10. JM

      Because it is that being moved thing. Do you know what I mean by that?

    11. AP

      I think so. Ex- explain it in one more, in one more way.

    12. JM

      So, um, being, you know, being moved is how it really moved me, and what do we mean by that? Well, it means that something moved or shifted in the body. So, um, our cat recently died.

    13. AP

      Mm, I'm sorry.

    14. JM

      It's okay because I've been really moved by it, and we have within the family been really moved by it. And, um, you know, we really loved him, and it's only a small loss, but we really did love him, and we've all been very moved, which means we've allowed ourselves to be sad together and to feel it. And at times I've woken in the morning and thought, "What's that heavy sense in my chest? Okay, I'm sad." And it's all right to be sad. It makes sense, and if I can feel it now- And I can help the others in the family to feel it together, and we can process it. It's, it's walking the walk together in a safe way, which sounds really trite. You know, people might say it's only a cat, but if you've lost a pet, you know how deeply that goes

    15. AP

      Yeah, abso- I mean, I think losing... Firstly, I'm so sorry about what's happened, and losing an animal, I think, is, is a traumatic event.

    16. JM

      Mm.

    17. AP

      Having lost dogs and cats in the past-

    18. JM

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... so I relate totally to that feeling. It's, it's the, it's the worst fear for any pet owner.

    20. JM

      Mm.

    21. AP

      If someone's listening and they relate to what you just said, that waking up in the night-

    22. JM

      Mm

    23. AP

      ... the feeling deep anguish-

    24. JM

      Mm-hmm

    25. AP

      ... but they're also not sure if they're an analyzer-

    26. JM

      Yeah

    27. AP

      ... how do you know if, if which camp? Maybe you can be in both. How do you know which camp you're in, if you are an analyzer of emotions or if you are a feeler-

    28. JM

      [laughs]

    29. AP

      ... of emotions?

    30. JM

      Oh, it's funny. While we were talking about that, I could feel my heart rate going up, and I wonder if yours did as well. It has-

  18. 46:01 – 47:18

    How to stop analysing and start feeling

    1. AP

      what, what can you do to, to disengage that or at least quieten it down and maybe turn up the volume a bit on the amygdala, the emotional side of it, and feel it more?

    2. JM

      Okay. So I wouldn't turn up the volume too much on the amygdala 'cause that's kind of the fear center. [laughs]

    3. AP

      Okay. [laughs]

    4. JM

      So we might want more to kind of, uh, turn up the volume on the kind of possibly even the default mode network and the kind of, okay, what does this mean? Maybe do some mapping onto the body. Self-talk is super useful, so, so, so learning to have the calm conversation with yourself of, and here we are. Okay, well, some self-talk, and then using the body to soothe. So that might be if you're in bed and you know that your mind's gone off is to get out of bed and to cool down and maybe make yourself a warm drink, and to treat yourself as you would perhaps a, a scared child, that you might feel better if you got back into bed with a, with a, a cushion to hug or the weighted blanket or whatever it is that helps you. Uh, and that it might be okay to be having these feelings, that we mustn't... You know, we talked about pushing feelings away.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JM

      That feelings hurt, and they can be scary, but in themselves they're not dangerous. So it's that curiosity about what does this mean, and how can I soothe it right now?

    7. AP

      And if someone's listening to this podcast, and they want to adopt the things that we've spoken about, and they want to go on their journey of healing,

  19. 47:18 – 49:09

    How do you know if you’re healing?

    1. AP

      how do they know if healing is actually happening? Is it measurable?

    2. JM

      Is it measurable? [laughs]

    3. AP

      So it, can we analyze it?

    4. JM

      [laughs] Oh, stop with the analyzing.

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. JM

      Uh, you can measure it. I mean, that's what so much, you know, all the psychiatric research is gonna be on, and this scale went up, and this one didn't.

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. JM

      And what does this mean? Obviously, we have to try and measure are people getting better. Um, but this is a slightly different question, isn't it? This is more kind of gestalt. How does it feel to get better?

    9. AP

      Yes.

    10. JM

      Is that what you mean?

    11. AP

      Yes, yes.

    12. JM

      So that's such a subtle question, and I'm sure lots of people watching will have their own answers of I began to feel better, or I have noticed this thing has improved. Um, 'cause I think, you know, we talked about starting the journey here, and there's that jar of healing. I think it's really easy to imagine that you're gonna get to a fixed place where none, all of this has gone away-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. JM

      ... and you're just like this kind of human automaton where everything is fine. But that's not what it's like. It is actually coming to a place where you still have lots of experiences, but they're more bearable. And, um, I think that that progress can be all sorts of different very subtle things from, you know, going back to the cat example, realizing that you can think and talk about the cat without being moved to tears. It's a simple thing, but it makes a big difference. Realizing that the intensity of an emotion is slightly reduced Or that a situation that might previously have caused you distress no longer causes the same degree of distress. Or maybe you've learned a new skill. You know, like you may have learned to be able to say no, or we talked about delegation-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. JM

      ... you might have learnt a new delegation. Whatever it is, there's so many small steps. But it is, it's not like coming to one big destination. It's like these, all these little tiny steps along the way, you know, all these little bits of paper. It's, it's lots of small steps.

    17. AP

      Yes. So fascinating, Judith. Thank you so, so much.

  20. 49:09 – 49:52

    The Washing Machine of Woes

    1. AP

      I wanna move on to actually, I think, the most emotionally unpredictable part of the show. [laughs]

    2. JM

      Oh, really?

    3. AP

      Which, uh, you'll be familiar with actually. You know

    4. JM

      Oh, is it the Washing Machine of Woe?

    5. AP

      This is, yeah, it is the Washing Machine of Woes.

    6. JM

      Excellent.

    7. AP

      Is this your fourth time?

    8. JM

      It's my fourth time.

    9. AP

      Fourth time, yes.

    10. JM

      Yes.

    11. AP

      Fantastic. We're gonna move on to the Washing Machine of Woes, which-

    12. JM

      It's-

    13. AP

      ... for any new listeners, is essentially audience questions.

    14. JM

      Uh-huh.

    15. AP

      Uh, and they go in a washing machine because, uh, for me, it represents memory loss 'cause I always forget to empty it after the cycle finishes. So it kind of doubles up as a bit of a public service announcement.

    16. JM

      Uh-huh.

    17. AP

      Anyone who's listening, probably running down the stairs now to empty their machine.

    18. JM

      [laughs] Empty the washing machine.

    19. AP

      Please come back. [laughs] Um, this week, Judith, in the washing machine, there's three audience questions this week, and the first one, in the first spin, someone's written in and

  21. 49:52 – 51:02

    Finding yourself after decades of masking

    1. AP

      asked, "If you've spent decades becoming the person everyone else needed you to be, how do you find your way back to yourself?"

    2. JM

      Gosh. That takes us back to the beginning, doesn't it? The kind of how, h- how do I know who I really am, um, and how do you find your way back to yourself. It is, it's this interoception feeling emotion piece-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. JM

      ... that we've talked about, which is emotions are really useful, and we can listen into them 'cause they give us a guide to what we actually want, and they can be so authentic 'cause, you know, they, they tell us stuff. We may not wanna listen to them, but I think that's where we begin to find ourselves, is where we can connect body and emotion and mind and be grounded, and then we're like, "Ah, I begin to get a sense of who I am." And actually, one of the things that we talk about quite a lot in our emotion regulation piece, our emotion regulation course, is values.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. JM

      Who am I in the world? Um, coming back to ourselves. Uh, and that, you know, it's very distressing to be at a distance from yourself, so I do really appreciate what that person's asked.

    7. AP

      So interesting. Thank you, Judith, very much on behalf of the first anonymous submission. And the next question is actually probably follows on from, to that nicely on the topic of masking.

  22. 51:02 – 53:00

    Do you find your true self — or create it?

    1. AP

      "Do people eventually find themselves, or do they slowly create a version of themselves that they feel will be accepted by the world?"

    2. JM

      Uh, I think, yeah, I think so. You're looking perplexed by that question.

    3. AP

      Well, I think, I mean, I don't, don't wanna... Do you think, when it says, I guess you want to, you probably, you, you create a version that is accepted by the world, and that is what masking is.

    4. JM

      Uh-huh.

    5. AP

      And then I suppose what comes next, hopefully, is a journey to take the mask off and find who you actually are underneath, which probably is healing, uh, through an identity lens.

    6. JM

      So I think it is healing, and I think the interesting thing about masking, I've said before, is that many people mask anyway, whether you're neurodivergent or not, that we are different people in different situations, and that is normal. I think the difference with, uh, ADHD, and perhaps AuDHD as well, is that, um, you may not know who you are at all-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. JM

      ... behind the mask. There can be a real sense of, "I've got no idea 'cause I feel so highly adapted to others." And so the process of, of getting to know yourself, as we said in question one, can allow you then to give you the choice. 'Cause I wouldn't be... You know, I've done jobs where I've needed to be, like, a slightly different person in that job, or in certain situations I have to be a slightly different person, but there's the choice piece, and the know- knowing that you can come back to a more-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. JM

      ... centered sense of self.

    11. AP

      Yeah. Fascinating. And just finally, before we move on to what I know is getting a ton of comments, which is the Letter to My Younger Self section, which is-

    12. JM

      Oh, gosh

    13. AP

      ... at the very end. It's a new piece we're doing. It's, it's, it's actually really nice.

    14. JM

      Oh, is this the, the, the curve ball? I've gotta write... Have I got to write it live?

    15. AP

      Uh, well, if you have time.

    16. JM

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      Otherwise, you can email it to me-

    18. JM

      Okay, cool

    19. AP

      ... and send it to me. But it's like a, a little cool thing we do at the end where the letter gets passed on to the next guest, which is obviously you today.

    20. JM

      Wow.

    21. AP

      And so you read the previous guest's letter to their-

    22. JM

      Wow

    23. AP

      ... younger self, and it all kind of connects-

    24. JM

      Okay

    25. AP

      ... all the episodes together. The final question out of the washing machine, the final spin.

  23. 53:00 – 54:05

    Is overthinking a form of emotional avoidance?

    1. AP

      We've kind of covered this earlier in a way, it's a new way of looking at it. "Can overthinking become another form of emotional avoidance?"

    2. JM

      Yes. Basically, it can. Overthinking, and, and also, but we mustn't be critical to ourselves. So, okay, if you're hearing this and going, "Oh, I overthink. Oh, God, I'm such a failure. I should stop overthinking," y- you may overthink because that's a tendency of the default mode network with that kind of rumination piece, uh, where you're overthinking 'cause you're kind of defaulting to, "Oh, I'll just," you know, get caught up. So it may be almost automatic, so please don't be critical of yourself if you find that you're overthinking. But just be aware and notice, and then think, "How can I, how can I distract myself, bring myself back to something?" Particularly if you're overthinking and it's causing distress, or if you're overthinking and it's stopping you from doing something that you might want to be doing or that might lead you towards recovery. So, yeah.

    3. AP

      Fantastic advice. Judith, thank you so much. And as teased [laughs] a moment ago unintentionally, I'm now gonna deliver to you the letter-

    4. JM

      Thank you

    5. AP

      ... that was written by the previous

  24. 54:05 – 57:18

    A letter to my younger self

    1. AP

      guest.

    2. JM

      "Hey, little one. I know what you're doing. You're trying to figure yourself out. You think that if you can just understand yourself well enough, everything will finally s- make sense. The next book, the next podcast, the next therapist, the next explanation. Surely one of them will finally fix the ache you've carried for so long. But I need to tell you something. The piece you're searching for isn't hiding in another explanation. It's waiting for you in a place you've spent your whole life avoiding, your own heart. You'll become incredibly good at understanding yourself. You'll learn about masking, trauma, rejection sensitivity, and ADHD. People will tell you how self-aware you are." What they won't see is that you become so good at explaining your pain that you've forgotten how to feel it. You'll spend years trying to think your way out of emotions that were never asking to be understood. They were asking to be felt. And somewhere along the way, you'll ask yourself a heartbreaking question, "Who am I when I'm not masking?" The answer is simpler than you think. There was never anything wrong with the person underneath the mask. He wasn't broken. He wasn't too much. He simply learnt that being accepted meant becoming whoever everyone else needed him to be, so he adapted until one day, even he forgot who he really was. If I could reach back and tell you one thing, it would be this. You don't have to earn the right to be yourself. I so agree.

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. JM

      You don't have to understand every part of yourself before you're allowed to love yourself. Understanding your ADHD will explain a lot, but explanation isn't the same as healing. Healing begins when you stop trying to solve yourself and start accepting yourself. The person you've been w- searching for isn't waiting in another book or another diagnosis. He's been quietly waiting beneath every mask you've ever worn, and he has been astonishingly patient. So be gentle with yourself. Your life was never meant to be a puzzle to solve. It was always a garden to tend. And the little boy you spent your whole life trying to fix was always enough. Love, your future self.

    5. AP

      Very powerful. Wow. It's almost like they knew the topic of the next episode. [laughs]

    6. JM

      That is very powerful. I'm putting that one back in there. That's precious.

    7. AP

      Absolutely.

    8. JM

      Are you gonna keep those?

    9. AP

      Yes, we do. We do keep those. Um, and if you would kindly w- write your own letter, and I look forward to the next guest reading it. I feel like letters, they're, they're really to the younger selves of, of the viewers-

    10. JM

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... the listeners. And we started this section as a nice little token to, to, to join all the, uh, the, the guests together. But really, the feedback is that in the comments, the guests are, are, are seeing themselves in the letters. On behalf, Judith, of everybody listening, trying to understand their brains and trying to heal, thank you so much.

    12. JM

      Thank you. [outro music]

Episode duration: 57:19

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