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Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalDeep Dive with Ali Abdaal

Building a 2.3 Million Follower Brand While Studying - Natacha Océane

👉 [Free live masterclass, Sat 21 Nov] Launch your online business by Christmas and land your first high-paying client by January →

Natacha OcéaneguestAli Abdaalhost
Nov 29, 20211h 22mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:30

    Intro

    1. NO

      There's something about not setting limits that drives me to want to just keep going and going and going.

    2. AA

      Okay.

    3. NO

      So if there's something that everyone's thinking, "Wow, this is kind of a real challenge," sign me up for it.

    4. AA

      Hello, and welcome to Deep Dive, the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfillment at work and in life. My name is Ali, and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies, and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. In this week's episode of Deep Dive, I chat to YouTuber and Ironman athlete Natacha Oceane. Frustrated by the gap between the findings of the scientific community and evidence-based information reaching the general public, Natacha left her PhD in biophysics to start a YouTube channel that tests fitness theories and translates the science behind health and fitness. She has a master following of over two million across her social media, and her goal is to make fitness science accessible to everyone. In our conversation, we discuss her feelings around quitting academia and her initial fears about putting herself on the internet.

    5. NO

      The feeling of having to get that scientific content out there to help as many people as possible so they didn't fall into the same traps that I did-

    6. AA

      Yeah

    7. NO

      ... was more important to me than that initial feeling of being uncomfortable.

    8. AA

      Okay.

    9. NO

      And that's why I kept going for it. And practice makes perfect, right?

    10. AA

      As well as uncovering how she cultivated mental resilience and self-awareness through athletic performance. So I guess the first thing I wanted to ask you, you famously do these Ironman things.

    11. NO

      Okay. [laughs]

    12. AA

      Like, what on earth possesses someone to want to, uh, swim for two and a half miles,

  2. 1:30 – 12:42

    Ironman Triathlon

    1. AA

      cycle for 120, and then run for 20? Like, why, why do people do this? Why do you, why do you do this? [laughs]

    2. NO

      Um, well, it was, like, a part of my life that I just-- I really like setting challenges for myself-

    3. AA

      Okay

    4. NO

      ... just because I feel, I feel like [sighs] sometimes we can be really prone to setting limits for ourselves and being like, "No, I'm not gonna do that."

    5. AA

      Mm.

    6. NO

      Or, "I can't do that." And for me, like, I-- there's something about not setting limits that drives me to want to just keep going and going and going.

    7. AA

      Okay.

    8. NO

      So if there's something that everyone's thinking, "Wow, this is kind of a real challenge," sign me up for it. 'Cause I just-

    9. AA

      [laughs]

    10. NO

      ... I just wanna do [laughs] -- I don't know what is, it just drives me to wanna do something that I feel like in the past I would've been like, "I can't, I can't do that."

    11. AA

      Okay.

    12. NO

      So I guess that for me is why I chose to do the Ironman.

    13. AA

      How, uh, how did you first get-- how did you first get into it?

    14. NO

      Well, I-- So I used to do a lot of athletics. I used-- I grew up just being really active. My whole family was super active, so they never kind of let us play computer games. It was always just go outside, play, sign up to whatever you can, and just be as active as possible.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. NO

      So when I was younger at secondary school, I used to do a lot of athletics. But I used to get really badly injured from it, so a lot of the cross-training that I had to do was in the pool, cycling, lot of low-impact exercise rather than, like, the hard, on the track sprinting hurdles, high jump, which gave me, like, ridiculously bad shin splints. So I spent a good nine months doing cross-training, which was, I think, my gateway to doing triathlon, because previously to that, I hadn't really done any kind of-- much cycling-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. NO

      ... or much-- I'd done some swimming, but not really-- I never really took it to another level.

    19. AA

      Yeah.

    20. NO

      And then when I got to-- It's really when I got to university, I was-- I just thought, "You know what? As well as doing my degree, I also just wanna do an Ironman." [laughs]

    21. AA

      [laughs] Okay.

    22. NO

      And, uh, sometimes there's no real, like, rational thinking-

    23. AA

      Yeah

    24. NO

      ... behind it. I was just like, "I'm just gonna do it," 'cause I feel like that's a real challenge that I can set myself. By the three years-- once my three years is completed at uni, I'll do an Ironman. And so I just signed up to the triathlon club and started doing Ironman training.

    25. AA

      Okay.

    26. NO

      And it kind of-- I liked it because it meant that I also could-- didn't get super injured, because I was-- I could balance out the swimming, the cycling, and the running and not do so much high impact with the running. And then I just ended up really liking the variety as well-

    27. AA

      Okay

    28. NO

      ... rather than just doing one single sport.

    29. AA

      So while you were at university and, you know, you're, you're doing a degree, and on the side you're training for triathlons and Ironmans and stuff, like, what, what did your schedule look like?

    30. NO

      It's-- it was very seasonal.

  3. 12:42 – 18:33

    Goals & Control

    1. AA

      goals in relation to goals that, that are within your control versus goals that are potentially outside of your control? Like within your control is, "I'm gonna finish the race to the best of my ability." Outside of your control, to an extent, is, "I want to hit a certain time or rank a certain position or compete with other people in, in a certain way."

    2. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AA

      And often when it comes to kind of especially like YouTube, Instagram influencing business, that kind of stuff, uh, you know, I think people encourage us to set these out- outcome goals. Like, oh, you know, let's aim to hit a certain KPI, a certain s- subscriber count by a certain amount of time.

    4. NO

      [laughs] Yeah.

    5. AA

      Which alw- always felt to me as being a bit like, ugh, but it's not within my control. [laughs]

    6. NO

      Yeah.

    7. AA

      If, do you, do you, do you get what I mean?

    8. NO

      Yeah.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. NO

      It's like it very, it very slightly is in the sense that you might have like luck or you can kind of gear your content to being more viral-

    11. AA

      Yeah

    12. NO

      ... um, or more applicable to a wide stream audience so that it might have a better chance of going viral.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. NO

      But in the sense, but in that sense where it's something that's out of your control, I mean, it's out of your control. Like I, I think over time, I, I don't really let that get to me because I guess I don't get my fulfillment out of goals that can't be, that are out of my control. As in, if something happens, like it happens, that's great, but that wasn't out of any of my doing.

    15. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    16. NO

      Like if I hit that KPI, I could have just been really lucky. Like yeah, I worked hard, but like sometimes you're just really lucky and-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. NO

      ... that's just out of your control. [laughs] And you can't be, you can't be over the moon about something that was out of your control that went your way-

    19. AA

      Hmm

    20. NO

      ... because that would just be, I don't know, credit where credit is due. Like it, it, like it could have-

    21. AA

      Yeah, it could have been luck. It could have been 100 other things.

    22. NO

      Yeah. And so I guess when it comes to, I, I don't, yeah, when things are out of my control, I don't really, I don't really worry so, I don't let it-

    23. AA

      Yeah

    24. NO

      ... affect me.

    25. AA

      Lots of us go through life with a bit of a love-hate relationship with STEM subjects. In theory, the idea of learning how the world works in science or learning how to build websites with computer science is really awesome, but when you're plodding your way through formulas in a science class or trying to understand code, it can be a bit dry and boring. The way I like to learn more about this stuff in a fun and engaging way is with Brilliant, who are kindly sponsoring this episode. Brilliant have a ton of courses that teach maths, science, and computer science with visual examples and interactive challenges along the ways that you can learn by doing. One of my favorite courses in Brilliant is actually the Computer Science series, especially the Introduction to Algorithms and the Fundamentals of Programming with Python. I was actually considering applying for computer science rather than medicine at university, and I ended up going down the medicine route, which I don't regret, but I never really understood computer science. And although I knew how to code, I didn't really understand the foundational algorithms and structures behind the field of computer science, so I really enjoyed checking out Brilliant's courses on that. And also their course on cryptocurrency is absolutely sick, and without that course, I really would not have understood how Bitcoin, for example, works. Anyway, if you wanna improve your math, science, and computer science, then head over to brilliant.org/deepdive, and the first 200 people to sign up via that link will get 20% off the annual subscription to Brilliant. So thank you very much, Brilliant, for sponsoring this video. So I guess you got a lot more fulfillment out of the fact that you finished the Ironman than the fact that you came second in your, in-

    26. NO

      Yeah

    27. AA

      ... in your category. Okay.

    28. NO

      Yeah.

    29. AA

      What was it like doing it for the first time, the Ironman?

    30. NO

      So it was actually amazing.

  4. 18:33 – 23:40

    Unlocking performance & Resilience

    1. AA

      I just, so I was, I was listening to David Goggins' audiobook, Can't Hurt Me-

    2. NO

      Okay, nice

    3. AA

      ... the other day, and I was like... And he talks a lot about how, you know, Ironmans and Ultramans and all this stuff, and his whole thing is about how, you know, you, you realize the power of the human mind and unlocking another layer or level of performance and-

    4. NO

      100%.

    5. AA

      Yeah. What's, what was that feeling like? What's that feeling like for you when you're sort of, you know, halfway through an Ironman and you know you've got another half of it to go?

    6. NO

      So, um, I tend to think of things in stages. I, I did an ultramarathon last year actually for a video where I was running... Was it 50K? I think it was 50K. And, um, rather than thinking, rather than breaking the, breaking the ultramarathon down into 50 kilometers-

    7. AA

      Yeah

    8. NO

      ... or more, I just, I created two loops for myself, and I just thought of it as two loops. And I don't know why breaking it down into not many, um, not that many... What's the word? Like, sections-

    9. AA

      Yeah

    10. NO

      ... or like just two things really helped me get through it and think, "Oh, this is not so bad."

    11. AA

      Okay.

    12. NO

      With the Ironman, I just thought of it as one swim, one bike, and a run.

    13. AA

      Mm.

    14. NO

      And so when I did, when I finished the swim I was like, "Cool, I'm a third, [laughs] third of the way."

    15. AA

      [laughs]

    16. NO

      When I did the bike I was like, "Cool."

    17. AA

      Okay.

    18. NO

      "That's the bike done." And when I'm, and when I'm doing the bike, I'm also thinking, I'm not thinking about the marathon after. I'm just thinking, "Right, let's just think about getting off the bike." And then when you've, and then when you've done the, and when you're doing the marathon, I break it down into the laps that we were doing-

    19. AA

      Yeah

    20. NO

      ... which were 10 kilometer laps, and I just thought like, "One lap done, two laps done, three laps done, four. Done."

    21. AA

      So what's, so what's going through your mind when you... Uh, uh, I mean, any time I've tried to do any run of any kind, I get to that point where I'm like, "You know what? My Apple Watch is telling me I've done a kilometer already. My feet are kind of hurting. I could just quit." And often I'm like, "You know what? There, there's a, there's a coffee van over there. I could get a nice oat milk latte. We'll have a nice walk home," and then I, and then I end up quitting. [laughs]

    22. NO

      [laughs]

    23. AA

      But the people who actually do running presumably have that thought of, "I could just quit," and then they just keep going.

    24. NO

      Yeah.

    25. AA

      So what do you tell yourself to, to keep going in those moments when your, your mind and body are saying, "Ugh," you know, "But you could just quit"?

    26. NO

      Do you know what? That thought never crosses my mind-

    27. AA

      Really?

    28. NO

      ... that I could just quit.

    29. AA

      Okay.

    30. NO

      And it's really weird because even when I do, um, even when I'm training at the gym, quitting never feels like an option. It doesn't even cross my mind. It's like I couldn't even quit if I wanted to.

  5. 23:40 – 34:18

    Quitting

    1. AA

      Steven Bartlett talks about this in his, his book as well where he talks about kind of a quitting framework.

    2. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AA

      Um, and his model for this is I th- I think something like, you know, will, will this be hard work, uh, and is the reward worth it? And if the reward is worth it and it will be hard work, then it's, it's worth doing. And if it's gonna be fun, then it's, it's worth doing anyway. But if the answer, if, if it's not worth it, then there's no point in, like, suffering through a lot of hard work that you're not enjoying just for the sake of this reward that you actually don't want.

    4. NO

      Yeah, I agree with that.

    5. AA

      Um, so I guess, so you're, I think you pr- would, would've graduated, um, undergrad at 21, done the Ironman then.

    6. NO

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AA

      And then you decided to start a PhD. Was it straight after or did you have, like, a master's in the middle?

    8. NO

      Straight after.

    9. AA

      Okay.

    10. NO

      Yeah.

    11. AA

      Then when, when did the YouTubing career start? Like, in this whole thing.

    12. NO

      After the PhD.

    13. AA

      Okay.

    14. NO

      Yeah. I started doing my PhD and there was nothing else going on.

    15. AA

      Okay.

    16. NO

      I was solely focused on that. And then I saw, um... Have you ever heard of the Banff Film Festival?

    17. AA

      Yes.

    18. NO

      Yeah.

    19. AA

      Yeah, it's pretty famous, yeah.

    20. NO

      Yeah. I went to... Uh, most people haven't, so-

    21. AA

      Oh, uh, I mean, among- amongst, like, the videographer-type community people-

    22. NO

      Oh, okay

    23. AA

      ... whose YouTube videos I watch, it- it's famous. [laughs]

    24. NO

      Yeah. I-

    25. AA

      Yeah

    26. NO

      ... I, I went to see it once, and that was maybe six months into my PhD.

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. NO

      And I remember just looking at these ama- amazing camerawork, amazing stories being told, and I'm always a really outdoorsy person, super outdoorsy, and it was just, it was incredible.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. NO

      And I sat there and I was like, "Do I actually enjoy what I'm doing?" Because prior to that, I, I had never had any self-awareness. So prior to that, I'd never, ever questioned whether I was happy or not. Being honest, in my undergraduate, I wasn't really happy. Like, if you'd asked me straight up, "How are you?"

  6. 34:18 – 44:40

    Starting YouTube & Misinformation

    1. AA

      what happened next? What were the early days like?

    2. NO

      The early days were beyond cringe.

    3. AA

      Oh, okay. [laughs]

    4. NO

      Like r- I think the first ever video I made, which I've taken down and I don't even know where it is, I wish I still had it-

    5. AA

      Yeah

    6. NO

      ... um, is this Halloween fitness video. Don't ask me why I did it, I just, it was a Halloween, like, skit fitness video.

    7. AA

      Mm.

    8. NO

      It was horrendous.

    9. AA

      Okay. [laughs]

    10. NO

      But I remember just going to Pure Gym at, like, midnight, filming it on a phone. [laughs] And then that was my first ever video-

    11. AA

      Okay

    12. NO

      ... I think. And then other videos, I don't know why that was my first video. I think I was just thinking, "Yeah, let's just do something, like, a little bit fun."

    13. AA

      Mm.

    14. NO

      Um, and then, then it started being more, um, like, uh, informational videos.

    15. AA

      Okay.

    16. NO

      But I was, I was really, I really struggled with speaking in front of the camera. I was really camera shy. Even I, I'd say even, like, a year and a half in-

    17. AA

      Okay

    18. NO

      ... is when I started getting comments from people saying, "Oh, it feels like your personality's coming through."

    19. AA

      Okay.

    20. NO

      Because the first year and a half, it, I felt so much more comfortable filming things and being behind camera.

    21. AA

      Mm.

    22. NO

      So a lot, even, like, my What I Eat in a Days would be three minutes long, no talking-

    23. AA

      Mm

    24. NO

      ... just video, edited, food being put together, and like, just, and that's it. And so it really took me a really long time to warm up to speaking in front of camera. So a lot of the early, early days-

    25. AA

      Yeah

    26. NO

      ... are just, it's hard to watch.

    27. AA

      Yeah, because-

    28. NO

      It's really hard to watch

    29. AA

      ... because the s- the-

    30. NO

      I don't think you'll find them anymore.

  7. 44:40 – 56:55

    Content Creation

    1. AA

      done a lot of, uh, research into that in my third year when I did a BSC in psychology. So I was like, "I've got a banger presentation on how to study for exams, the, with, with all the evidence. I just need to turn that into a video. But that needs to be, like, my 100th video rather than my first video 'cause I'm just not good enough at the video thing to, to do justice to, to this thing."

    2. NO

      Yeah.

    3. AA

      What, what about you? Do, were you, were you holding back banger ideas?

    4. NO

      There are times now where I hold something back-

    5. AA

      Mm

    6. NO

      ... because I know that, I know that the... What am I trying to say? Um, like, the circumstances will come in right, where, like, there's, we've got, like, the right equipment to film this-

    7. AA

      Yeah

    8. NO

      ... or we have, like, the funds to be able to hire, like, a, a specific, a, like, um, not event, a venue.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. NO

      Yeah, sorry. [laughs] Uh, like, even the Ironman video, I've, we've wanted to do that for a long time, but I wanted to do it in the right circumstances, so be able to have a drone, be able to do drone footage-

    11. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    12. NO

      ... be able to hire the Olympic pool.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. NO

      All of these things, like, the budget is more for a video like that than, than a regular, um, video. So some videos I'll, I'll wait just a bit. Um, but a lot of the videos, I, if I'm making something, I make it so that it's as timeless as can be.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. NO

      So especially with the science, the science explained videos, those I will, I tend, I, it's n- I don't feel like I've had to wait, but I will spend a long time making it-

    17. AA

      Mm

    18. NO

      ... because I know that I only have one shot. Like, I'm not gonna make that video again.

    19. AA

      Okay.

    20. NO

      Um, it's not, some, some videos you just can't keep milking. Like-

    21. AA

      [laughs]

    22. NO

      And, and I also f- from, as a, as a creator, like, I don't like repeating myself. I don't like having to always do the same thing over and over and over again. Like, I like to do it, do it really, really well to the best of my abilities, and then cool.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. NO

      I've done that. I've done that topic. We can leave that now.

    25. AA

      Yeah.

    26. NO

      So yeah.

    27. AA

      So, so within, within that first year, years of may- m- maybe around 2016 time, you went to 10K subs off the back of this, um, cheat day video.

    28. NO

      Yeah.

    29. AA

      When did YouTube start becoming commercially viable for you? What was, what was that like?

    30. NO

      Um, so I think I hit, I think that was, like, July 2017. I think, I think I was about, like, 150K subs-

  8. 56:55 – 1:10:27

    Self-awareness

    1. AA

      what was that process like?

    2. NO

      Um, so self-awareness is the ability to look at yourself and how you're behaving right in that moment-

    3. AA

      Mm

    4. NO

      ... in a completely impartial state. So... And that's a really hard thing to do. Like, if you're feeling angry-

    5. AA

      Mm

    6. NO

      ... imagine yourself in third person looking at yourself and being like, "You're being angry. Like, you're a dick." Or like, "You're, you're behaving like a dick." Like, when you're in that moment and you're frustrated [laughs] and you're angry and you're that emotional, it's hard to, to think, "Okay, I'm being really angry. Why am I angry? Or what can I do about it?" That, I think, is... That, I think, is what self-awareness is. Um, I think for me it started off with self-reflection.

    7. AA

      Okay.

    8. NO

      Where I would behave in a certain way, and then I'd look back and be like, "Oh yeah, I, I kind of behaved really badly." Or like, or, or however.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. NO

      Like too emotionally or, um... And it's, I think the process of being self-aware is to take that emotion out and be really honest with yourself and not worry about is, is it that right? Should I have behaved that way? Like, and it is part of understanding your personality. And then once you can understand your personality, you can, you can find solutions for yourself and set things up for yourself that help you in your life. Li- literally across all of your life. Like, I think the first time I ever developed self-awareness was I was seeing a life coach and, um, he specializes in neurolinguistic processing. And I, I was frustrated. I was frustrated 'cause I was always arguing with my mum, and we were alway- always, always fighting, always, about the smallest things. And I, and I said this to him. And he was like, "Okay, let's, let's practice and let's do some self-awareness." I was like, "What do you mean? It's her fault. [laughs] It's not my fault. It's her fault." And he was like... And so we started to kind of like work through that, and I started to realize how I was feeling in the moment and what I could do about it. And it's really about taking control of how you feel in that moment and what you can do about it-

    11. AA

      Mm

    12. NO

      ... impartially. And I think it makes you feel... I think over time it's made me a lot better at being a creator as well, um, and a lot better at balancing life and feeling aware of, being self-aware of how I'm feeling in the moment. So talking about balance, like I don't think I've... I don't think that balance is something that I, um, practice every single... I practice it every day, but I don't have balance every day.

    13. AA

      No.

    14. NO

      In the sense that I don't have, like I don't get my workout in, I don't get my, like, rest time in.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. NO

      I don't get my... Every day, it doesn't work that way. It's kind- it kind of snakes around, and you go through moments of imbalance-

    17. AA

      Mm

    18. NO

      ... and moments of, like, balance. And then in the, in the middle, you're... Sorry. You've got... You go through moments of imbalance. You go through moments of like on both extremities.

    19. AA

      Mm.

    20. NO

      And in the middle you find balance.

    21. AA

      Okay.

    22. NO

      Um, and that can be over, like, the course of a month or a year. Like in the last six months when I wasn't posting YouTube videos, I was working a disgusting amount. It was disgusting, and I wasn't getting enough sleep. And I wasn't working out how I usually work out, and I wasn't doing all these things. And I was self-aware because I knew that that was an unsustainable way to work.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. NO

      And so what can I do about it? I knew that I had to work in that way, but it wasn't something that was sustainable. And so I need to find a solution to start to bring that back in.

    25. AA

      Mm.

    26. NO

      And so I knew that I had to find a date at which I needed to start slowing things down.

    27. AA

      Mm.

    28. NO

      I booked myself a holiday, and then I start getting back to moments where I feel like more in balance, catch up on sleep.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. NO

      Start training, finding more of a routine. But I think it's being aware in that moment how you feel, being really honest with yourself, completely impartially- As if you were just a third person, you didn't even know that person, looking in on the situation and thinking, "Right, how are you behaving?"

  9. 1:10:27 – 1:22:29

    Rapid Fire Questions

    1. AA

      in, in random directions.

    2. NO

      Okay.

    3. AA

      Um, so what advice would you give to your younger self?

    4. NO

      Start practicing self-awareness straight away. [laughs]

    5. AA

      [laughs] Amazing. Okay. Uh, who has had the biggest influence on your career?

    6. NO

      Uh, Mario.

    7. AA

      Okay. How so?

    8. NO

      Um, so he has an in- he's one of those people that is emotionally intelligent and just intelligent.

    9. AA

      Hmm.

    10. NO

      Like, just baseline. Um, he has always had really good self-awareness, so he's really been able to, like, assess situations. But just more than that, like, he's taught me so much about business, about managing myself, managing my life. He is my manager. Um, how to work effectively, productively, um, how to manage relationships, how to... Yeah, just he's, yeah, it-- Mario, for sure.

    11. AA

      [laughs]

    12. NO

      Always.

    13. AA

      Great. [laughs] Um, what's one tip for someone who's looking for success?

    14. NO

      Be prepared to work really hard, and you have to make sacrifices-

    15. AA

      Hmm

    16. NO

      ... in order to get there. Like, it's not-- I don't think success comes without sacrifice.

    17. AA

      Ooh, interesting. That's a, that's a nice quote.

    18. NO

      Would you disagree?

    19. AA

      No, that's a nice quote, "Success doesn't come without sacrifice." Um, I don't know. So there's a big-- well, there's a sort of, uh, movement these days, a sort of the anti-hard-work movement.

    20. NO

      Okay.

    21. AA

      Um, and I think-

    22. NO

      Interesting

    23. AA

      ... I think, like, it's like, um-

    24. NO

      To be successful?

    25. AA

      Yeah. Uh-

    26. NO

      Or is it an anti-hard worker to have a nice life, or is it an anti-hard work to be successful?

    27. AA

      I think it's an anti-hard work to have a nice life rather than to be successful-

    28. NO

      Okay

    29. AA

      ... which is where the, where, where, where the nuance is. But I guess kinda back in the day, uh, kind of I'm thinking Gary Vaynerchuk kinda vibes of, like, you gotta hustle, you gotta work really hard, it's-- so that you can build a business, et cetera. And especially kind of post-pandemic, um, it seems like the idea of hard work and hustling and productivity in, in some spheres is getting a bit of a bad rep that, hey, we shouldn't be promoting hard work. We should be promoting healthy living and, and all that kind of stuff.

    30. NO

      Hmm.

Episode duration: 1:22:29

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