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Business Masterclass: How Anyone Can Build A Million Dollar Brand - Chris Ducker

👉 [Free live masterclass, Sat 21 Nov] Launch your online business by Christmas and land your first high-paying client by January →

Chris DuckerguestAli Abdaalhost

Nov 23, 20231h 31mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

100 min read · 19,627 words

0:00 – 1:44
Intro
1. CDChris Ducker
  I'm a believer that when you build a business based around you and what it is that you believe in, that there are no real competitors out there. It's a 100% original business.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show.
3. CDChris Ducker
  Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  This is gonna be fun.
5. CDChris Ducker
  [laughs]
6. AAAli Abdaal
  What is a personal brand?
7. CDChris Ducker
  A personal brand is what people say about you when you're not around. It's what you're known for. All entrepreneurs are salespeople, right? We're selling our ideas, our solutions, our thoughts, our opinions. Personal brands are salespeople personified. I mean, everything we do is a sales situation. And the one thing that I teach my clients and my students is that just be yourself. If you're yourself, you're not gonna come across as sleazy or salesy. You're gonna come across as someone who's helpful.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Any parting advice for me? You know, I'm 28 years old, doing this personal brand thing.
9. CDChris Ducker
  I would say...
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Ooh, by the way, in case you have not yet heard, my book is about to come out. It's called Feel-Good Productivity: How to Do More of What Matters to You, and it's a book that I've been working on for the last three years. And it's being published at the end of December 2023, but pre-orders are actually available. And I know people don't like pre-ordering the book, but if you do pre-order the book and you email me your receipt, you will get completely free access to a live exclusive event that I'm hosting in the first weekend of January of 2024, and this is a live online workshop all about annual planning, goal setting, and reflection. And so I'm gonna be facilitating a group with hopefully hundreds of people from all around the world, and we're gonna be going through how to figure out what to do with our life and how to turn that into goals for the year and how to build systems and how to be consistent with stuff and how to make sure that we are enjoying the journey along the way. That is purely exclusively available for people who pre-order the book as a thank you for our little community. So if you want to check it out, you can check out the book. You can maybe consider pre-ordering it. The link will be down in the video description. Chris, thank you so much
1:44 – 7:40
Chris' life story
1. AAAli Abdaal
  for coming on the show.
2. CDChris Ducker
  Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  This is gonna be fun. Um, I'm gonna s- start things off with a bit of an unusual question. Um, have you come across that, um... There was this article a while ago, 36 Questions to Fall in Love.
4. CDChris Ducker
  No.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  It's like, the, the theory was that these psychologists got a bunch of people together, and they realized that if you get two people on a date and you ask them, you ask just, you ask each other these 36 questions, um, and then you stare into each other's eyes for a few minutes, you're more likely to fall in love. Um-
6. CDChris Ducker
  Are you gonna start asking me these questions now? [laughs]
7. AAAli Abdaal
  One, one of the questions-
8. CDChris Ducker
  Now I know why I'm sat directly opposite you-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Exactly
10. CDChris Ducker
  ... for this interview. Right.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  One of those questions is, um, "Tell me your life story in under four minutes."
12. CDChris Ducker
  Oh, God.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  So I'd love to start with that.
14. CDChris Ducker
  Oh, man.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  For the people that might not know who you are, what is your life story in under four minutes?
16. CDChris Ducker
  Uh, well, I was born at a very young age, I can guarantee you that. Um, and from there, uh, not the best student. Studied hard, not the smartest guy at school. Um, certainly learnt a lot more from reading books, um, as an adult than I ever did at school. Um, didn't do university. Uh, got married very, very young. Had two amazing children very, very young. Got divorced not so young. Um, then went to, uh, the Philippines, uh, in the early 2000s. Spent 18 years there. Set up, uh... Hang on, I'm skipping over stuff now, but I want to make sure I get this in in four minutes. Um, worked for a big infomercial business in the United States. Um, always been sales and marketing my entire career. Always sales and marketing. Uh, the infomercial stuff was fine, so yes, "But wait, there's more," and all that kind of stuff. Um, Kevin Harrington, uh, one of the original Sharks, was also a, a seen-on-TV guy. Used to hang out with him quite a bit back in the day. Um, and then set up our own call center facility in the Philippines, my wife and I, my second wife, and, uh, from there, everything else kind of just snowballed. Um, the personal brand, the speaking, the books, the students, the clients, and now I'm here at some weird studio in London talking to some guy who's, uh, young enough to be my son. [laughs]
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yes. [laughs]
18. CDChris Ducker
  So there you go. That's about it.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  That's a good place-
20. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah
21. AAAli Abdaal
  ... that's a good place to kick things off. Um, let's start with the sales and marketing.
22. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  How did you get into sales and marketing? What's... What, what was going on there?
24. CDChris Ducker
  So it was part-time job, uh, my first job, for, um, a secondhand car newspaper, and, um, I just had to sell classified space. Simple as that. Um, 17 years old, on the phone, and, uh, had to call people out of the blue from the Yellow Page. Literally the Yellow Pages. That was my, my qualified leads.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
26. CDChris Ducker
  Um, that, they were my, uh, they were my leads, and I would start at the beginning of the book and then work my way through to the end of the book and so it was-
27. AAAli Abdaal
  So, so you're phoning people up. So what-
28. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah
29. AAAli Abdaal
  ... what are you saying on the phone?
30. CDChris Ducker
  "Have you got a car, boat, motorcycle that you want to sell? Uh, we can, you know, help you do that for X amount of money, uh, in next week's copy of the, of, of the newspaper." Um-
7:40 – 17:27
Why we don't like the word 'sales'
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Why do people have such an aversion to the word sales?
2. CDChris Ducker
  Because it, it, it, I think a lot of people think that being sold to is like being forced into something to a certain degree. Like, "Oh, this guy's a salesperson. He's gonna try and sell me something." And I think that, that's why there's that initial, um, you know, that initial friction between what people think. And, you know, particularly that whole kind of used car salesman, snake oil salesman, that sort of type of thing. Um, and the one thing that I, I teach my clients and my students in regards to building a personal brand and a business based around expertise is that, you know, you just, just be yourself. Just be yourself. If you're yourself, you're not gonna come across as sleazy or salesy. You're gonna c-come across as someone who's helpful, who's got value in them, that's there to serve. And I always believe that you sell first and you sell... Sorry, you serve first and you sell later, right? And so the sales process, if you look at it and you break it down step by step, it's, you know, uh, prospecting. Then you qualify that prospect. If they qualify, you move on to, you know, talking about your, your product, your service, your experience, uh, features, benefits. You might come over a rebuttal or an objection rather to which you will have a rebuttal. Then you get back to your, your pitch, right, your offer. Then you might have another objection to get over, rebuttal. And eventually, at the very, very end of the sales process is the close, right? And this is what always has surprised me is you, you, you go to Amazon, you type in how to close a sale or books on closing sales, and you see all these things, 25 ways to close a sale easier, or, you know, 50 sales closes that really work, you know, and all this kind of stuff. I've never thought about clo- In fact, actually, I can honestly say to you I've never been worried about closing a sale because I'm just a big believer that the sale, or rather the, the close part of the sales process, is just a natural conclusion to that process. If you've done everything right up to that point, the sale actually should happen all by itself.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
4. CDChris Ducker
  I'm a big believer of that, and that's why I don't do the hard sell. That's why, you know, this is the problem that you've got. This is how I can potentially help you. And when you're ready to be helped, you know where I am.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
6. CDChris Ducker
  I'm not going anywhere, you know? So I can honestly say that I, I, you know, through all of our students, all of our clients, I don't have to push anybody. In fact, actually, people are just waiting to jump on board-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
8. CDChris Ducker
  ... because of the fact that I just come from that place of value and serving. And I think that is missing a lot in today's world, and that is probably one of the main reasons as well why people look at sales professionals, um, with a negative-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
10. CDChris Ducker
  ... attachment.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  I've-- Well, one thing I've heard from a few people is, "Uh, I would, I would start a business, but I don't want to be a salesman." What's, what's going on there?
12. CDChris Ducker
  Impossible. Impossible. If you're gonna start a business, you are going to be a salesperson. Otherwise, your business isn't gonna be around for very long.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
14. CDChris Ducker
  Everybody's selling something, product, service, experience. You know, it's just one of those things. You, you go to Disney. You go to a Disney park, and you get off a ride. Nine times out of 10, when you get off that ride and you want to go out onto the main street of the park again, you've got to walk through a souvenir or gift shop of some variety. They're selling you. It's very subtle. It's passive, but they're selling you. And the vast majority, and to use just to stick with Disney, by the way, I'm a big Disney fan. I'm a dad. I've got four kids, two are adults now. But it's tough to be a parent and not, you know, love Disney, right? And I love Disney. I think they're a great company. But boy, do they know how to sell. Disney are one of the best companies on the planet to sell. And there's just no way that you can start-- You can start something, not worry about making money, and not make money, but you can't call that a business because a business makes money.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
16. CDChris Ducker
  Right? You can call it a hobby. I've got enough hobbies. I prune bonsai trees. That's a great hobby.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
18. CDChris Ducker
  I love my bonsais. I play with Lego sets with my kids. That's a hobby. I collect Pokemon cards. That's a hobby, too, right? But none of those things make me money.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
20. CDChris Ducker
  Well, actually, probably sold a few Pokemon cards before.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
22. CDChris Ducker
  But, like, other than that, my business is my business where I make my real money.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
24. CDChris Ducker
  And so I, I don't think it's possible to start a business and not be involved in sales, particularly initially anyway, you know?
25. AAAli Abdaal
  What did you mean when you said that creating content is selling?
26. CDChris Ducker
  Well, because when you publish that piece of content, you're selling somebody on either, A, your opinion, or B, the ability of you being able to help them in some capacity with the content that you've created and published, right? So I mean, if we use you as an example and what you do on your YouTube channels, you are helping people to live a more productive, a more fulfilling, more joy-filled life. That's your jam.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  That's a good phrase. [laughs]
28. CDChris Ducker
  Yes.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  We, we, we should steal that. [laughs]
30. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah. Let's write that down.
17:27 – 25:02
What is a personal brand?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  What is a personal brand?
2. CDChris Ducker
  A personal brand is what people say about you when you're not around. That's what your personal brand is. It's what you're known for. So when you're not at that conference or that dinner party or that coffee meeting, um, and your name pops up in the conversation, what are people saying about you? That's your personal brand. It's what you're known for ultimately.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  I'm very much on your page here in terms of sort of I've drunk... I've been drinking this, this kind of Kool-Aid and living in this world for, for a quite, for quite a long time.
4. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  But often I f- I'll find, uh, when I throw out the word personal brand, people will, kind of like the word sales, people have a bit of a, a cringe response to that. What's, what's going on there?
6. CDChris Ducker
  I j- I think it's because I think personal branding as a whole, I mean, look, it's not a new concept. Personal brands have been around for decades and decades, right? Um, but I think it's still a little unknown. It's a, it's a little unknown. It's a little unsure in terms of what it is and how it works, and I feel, I also feel like- Because a lot of people don't know people who have personal brand businesses, um, it's kind of like a weird sort of ice- it's almost like an iceberg, right?
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
8. CDChris Ducker
  Like, see an iceberg floating around somewhere in the Arctic. You can see what's above the water, but you can't see what's underneath it. So you see the influence that the personal brand is having. You see potentially maybe the money that that personal brand entrepreneur is making, but you don't see what's underneath.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. CDChris Ducker
  Right? An iceberg, what are they, like, 10 times bigger underneath than they are on top of the water or whatever? So that's, that's a whole bunch more there. That's, that's opinions, that's relationships, that's, um, [lip smacks] you know, the, the things that make them tick, the things that they hate, uh, the things that they want to stay away from, their experiences, the people that they want to do more business with. All that stuff is all underneath.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
12. CDChris Ducker
  And that's unknown. That's unknown. Whereas the stuff on top is known very clearly because it's, it's forward-facing. It's the front cover of a book, or it's who the person is on stage or on a camera, you know, on, on YouTube or on Twitter or Insta or whatever it is. And so I think a lot of people see personal brand entrepreneurs as somewhat vain because they, they're putting themselves out into the world. And you see a lot of these influencers that sort, you know, "Hi, everyone. Welcome back to my channel. You know, today I'm-"
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Damn, that's me. [laughs]
14. CDChris Ducker
  Gonna be... [laughs] Yeah. But then it's usually followed up, you know, some of the w- some of the things I've seen. You know, um, you know, "Today I'm gonna be cleaning my kitchen. Why don't you follow along?" Hey, you know what? If you want to watch somebody clean, clean their kitchen, fair play. Go ahead and watch them, you know. They've built that personal brand. They're, you know, somebody who focuses on looking after a busy home or something like that. And there are people out there that are gonna want to watch that sort of type of content because they want to speed up the house clean every week, or they want to become a more productive mom or dad or parent or whatever. And so I think that a lot of people look at the personal brand entrepreneur and the element of personal branding with a bit of a frown almost because they don't know how it works.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. CDChris Ducker
  They don't know what's involved in building a business based around a personal brand as well.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  What's the difference between a personal brand and a, I guess, professional reputation? Or is it, is it the same thing, just kind of in different kind of words?
18. CDChris Ducker
  I think it is.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
20. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah, it is. It's just a different way of, you know, it's a different way of being able to say, "This is what I do"-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
22. CDChris Ducker
  ... ultimately, you know?
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, 'cause I guess when I talk to my mom about this, she wouldn't understand the word personal brand. But if I, if I said, "Hey, you know that famous surgeon that you know? He's got a professional reputation, right?" She's like, "Yeah, of course."
24. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  I'm like, "That's a personal brand."
26. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  "Ha ha, gotcha." [laughs] You know, that kind of thing.
28. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Um-
30. CDChris Ducker
  And I think maybe in some, in some indus- industries, some instances, you would use one and you would never use another.
25:02 – 36:15
How to build a personal brand
1. AAAli Abdaal
  let's say I am studying architecture at university, and I'm thinking, you know, I, I wanna actually be an architect. I don't wanna be one of those, you know, architect dropouts that start a YouTube channel for now. I wanna study architecture. I wanna build my professional reputation. I wanna network with the right people. Maybe I'm active on LinkedIn. Maybe I'm going to these conferences and just trying to build up a decent body of work. But I'm also thinking in the back of my mind, you know, I can see myself, based on the sort of person I am... You know, back when I was in school, I was selling candy bars, whatever. Um, I'm thinking, "Maybe I want to start my own firm one day, and preferably sooner rather than later once I've got a bit of experience under my belt. And, hmm, maybe this personal brand stuff could be interesting." In that position, let's say someone is a professional in a traditional career, and they like the idea of a personal brand. Firstly, what's, what's the benefit of them trying to build a personal brand within a professional industry, and then how would they go about it?
2. CDChris Ducker
  Well, I mean, obviously it will give you options further down the line. That's, you know, that's a big o- you know, a big benefit for sure. Um, in terms of going a- ahead and actually starting it and doing it, I would be, in this day and age, I'd be really, really upfront with my boss, and I'd say, "Hey, I'm thinking of starting a YouTube channel where, uh, I'm gonna show people how to draw or how to use CAD or how to make 3D models or whatever it is that people do in architecture, you know, offices." And my father was an architect, so I, I've kind of grown up around that a little bit. Um, and, uh, I just thought, before I start doing it, I'm not gonna mention my company that I'm working for or anything like that. Yeah, opinions are my own and all that sort of stuff. But would you have a problem with it or not?
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
4. CDChris Ducker
  Because you're better off being upfront with that and getting the green light from your boss than you would do putting an entire year into it, the boss is not liking it, and then getting into trouble. That wouldn't be a good situation to be in at all. But it would certainly give you opportunities further down the line. It creates options-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
6. CDChris Ducker
  ... which is never a bad thing at all, you know? But Ali, honestly, you know, we're sitting here talking about this. If you'd have told me, you know, 17, 18 years ago when I opened the doors to my first business that I would be writing a bestselling book on building a personal brand business, that I would be making money to speak in front of complete strangers on stages around the world, um, and have th- you know, tens of thousands of people tuning into my show every week, like I would not have seen this coming at all. This has not been planned, or at least initially it wasn't, right? I'd like to think that I've been a little bit more strategic in the last seven or eight years, but at least at first... Like I didn't even realize I had a personal brand until I got my first book deal, and then I realized. It was one, one particular conversation that I had with the publishers, uh, who said... My first book was called Virtual Freedom, and they said that they liked the concept of the book and the proposal for the book because it felt like it was the outsourcing life section of the four-hour workweek that never got printed kind of thing.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
8. CDChris Ducker
  It was like the next step kind of thing. Um, and that's great, and that's gonna put you on another pedestal, Chris. And I was like, "Well, okay, that's great and everything, but I'm not really, I don't really... I just wanna help people. Like I'm not, I'm not writing this book to go on to, you know, to move up a pedestal or two. Like this is just what I've gone through in the last four, five, six years." I burned out in 20- 2009 and then had to come back from that, and part of that process was hiring a whole bunch of people to replace myself, some virtual, some not. But then, you know, I started blogging and podcasting and all that sort of stuff in 2010 about VAs and virtual teams, and all of a sudden, bosh, I'm getting a publishing deal because I'm the VA guy, right? So okay, great. I'd, I've always wanted to become a public- a published author. That's a goal. That, that... You know, let's tick that off, uh, you know, the, the, the list, and we'll move on from that. But then what happened was after the book came out, people started to say to me, "How did you do that? How did you get the book deal?" And I started reverse engineering it back, and I said, "Well, I got the book deal because I was publishing content three times a week on my blog, and I was podcasting every week, and, you know, I was doing YouTube videos every now and then. I was on Twitter, you know, back when, you know, Twitter was like really cool when it first started," right? And all this sort of stuff. And you reverse engineer it back, you realize, actually, I'm building that personal brand up over a period of time, and it just ended up culminating with a book deal.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
10. CDChris Ducker
  So then that's where Youpreneur was born.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. CDChris Ducker
  That was where, if I can do it for nothing, there's no reason why I can't help other people do it as well. And that, that was where Youpreneur was born.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Is there no... Is, is there a way to build a personal brand without, I guess, quote, "creating content," or is that m- really the main lever?
14. CDChris Ducker
  I mean, I think there probably is. Uh, I, I don't think you need to. You know, one of the, one of the easiest ways for us to spread our message, our opinions, our ideas, and our thoughts today is doing exactly what we're doing right now.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. CDChris Ducker
  It's getting in front of other pe- other people's audiences.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
18. CDChris Ducker
  Right? Um, you know, your people will tune in. And I'm a little Marmite, right? I'll... People either like me or they don't like me. There's not a lot of messy middle with me, and I'm actually fine with that as well. And I think pretty much every content creator should be like that. You know, you either love it or hate it. Like Marmite have it They've got it down right. In terms of marketing, like they lean into that love it or hate it thing so well, and it works brilliantly. And I think the same could be said for personal brands as well. But this was not something that I really thought was gonna happen, but now I've just rolled into it. And I think that the majority of people who jump on board with the idea of building a personal brand, um, and they understand the power of it, and there is a certain amount of responsibility involved as well. Obviously, as you get more and more known and, and respected, uh, your opinions and what you say online really matter-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
20. CDChris Ducker
  ... particularly. But no, I, I don't think you need to create content yourself, but I think in today's world, you definitely need to be, you need to be in front of other people-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
22. CDChris Ducker
  ... via their other people's content maybe.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, 'cause I guess back in the day it was like, you know, you would publish a book, which would be gate kept behind a publisher. You might be on a TV show.
24. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Like Tony Robbins back in the day was on TV shows and selling CDs and stuff-
26. CDChris Ducker
  Yep
27. AAAli Abdaal
  ... to get in front of people.
28. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, or you might be speaking on stage and hope that the people, or sp- sp- speak on stage enough times or in front of enough people for your personal name, reputation to get known.
30. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
36:15 – 43:12
Building a long-term reputation
1. AAAli Abdaal
  episode. When I, when I speak to my mom about, about this stuff, she doesn't really-- She, she, she feels a lot of fear in the sense of YouTube channel, like what, what's gonna happen in a few years' time? She sees kind of the rise and fall of these makeup lifestyle-y type YouTubers on, like, The Guardian, and she's like, "Oh, I'm, I'm really worried this is gonna happen to my son 'cause what's in one year is not in the next year." Um- Which is, strikes me, and, and, and I agree with her on this. Like, there are so few YouTubers who are big today who were also big 10 years ago, with the exception of a few, like, tech YouTubers or in certain-
2. CDChris Ducker
  Mm-hmm
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... in certain niches. How do you think about kind of the longevity of a personal brand and a personal brand business? Is it a thing... Like, can you, can you be like, "Right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna focus on my personal brand and kind of do that forever?" Or does it have, like, a sell-by date?
4. CDChris Ducker
  I don't, I don't think a per- like, I don't think a personal brand really has a sell-by date. Personal brand business might have a sell-by date, whereas you end up wanting to stop. Um, but that doesn't mean that the work that you've created through that career won't stick around forever as well. I mean, one of my biggest kind of mentors I'd never met was a guy called Zig Ziglar, uh, who's an American author and speaker. Um, and you know, like I said, never met Zig. I've met two or three people that have worked with him. Uh, I've become, uh, I've had the opportunity to rather to, uh, interview his son, who now runs Ziglar Enterprises and all the rest of it. But you look at Zig, he's... You know, he passed away years ago, yet his personal brand is still quite synonymous with success and sales particularly. Um, and you know, ever since discovering his stuff when I was 15 years old, I was halfway through my GCSEs, I discovered an audio tape, um, at the local library called See You At The Top, and I'll never forget the sell line. It was, "It's a checkup from the neck up." It was very, very, very American. Uh, and I'm just this guy in Wimbledon, this 15-year-old kid whose idea of, uh, you know, working through life is, you know, playing basketball, skateboarding, and doing his best to impress girls, um, and failing at pretty much all of them, to be honest with you. Um, but there was something about Zig's words, and I, I got his cassette, um, and took it home and listened to it, and there was something about his, his way of, you know, talking and explaining and motivating that y- it's very hard not to appreciate that kind of, the, the life that that kind of person's living, and that's the reason why to this day now his books still sell. People are still talking about him. And, you know, his quotes are some of the most shared quotes-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
6. CDChris Ducker
  ... on social media. You know? Like, "You can have everything in life that you want if you help other people get what they want."
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
8. CDChris Ducker
  You know, this, this sort of stuff doesn't go away. It's been around for decades. That's the kind of personal brand that, you know, he's, he's no longer with us, but his work is still with us.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. CDChris Ducker
  And that kind of brand, I don't think, da- you know, that doesn't have a shelf life.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. CDChris Ducker
  You know, that will, that will be forever. But there'll be other people, you know, that will come and go a little bit, and it kind of, it is what it is, you know? But I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it's as clean cut as just saying, "This is, this is the way a personal brand business is built, and it's only good until this point." I don't think it's clean cut as that. And I also think it also comes down to how much impact you have-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
14. CDChris Ducker
  ... and how many people you actually help out as well.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  So how would you go about building a personal brand business? Like, w- what does a personal brand business mean? What does it do? How, what, what are the steps to making it happen?
16. CDChris Ducker
  Well, first thing is to figure out exactly what it is you want to be known for. Now, understand you're not marrying that, right? Like, it's just what you're gonna be known for now-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep
18. CDChris Ducker
  ... for the foreseeable future. So once you've discovered exactly what it is that you want to be known for, then it's your job then to figure out who it is that you're gonna help.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
20. CDChris Ducker
  So, you know, you can call it a customer avatar if you want or whatever. Um, but this is what I do. This is how I can help people. This is the type of people that I'm gonna help. But my, my kind of big thing here is to try and niche that down as much as possible-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
22. CDChris Ducker
  ... so you can hit the ground running as quickly as possible-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. What do you mean?
24. CDChris Ducker
  ... after, after you get going, right? So, you know, I could say, "Well, I'm a health coach, and I help people get healthy."
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. CDChris Ducker
  That's okay, but it's a little vanilla. There's a whole bunch of health coaches out there, right? But if you say, "I'm a health coach that works with men," now I've cut out the female population from my marketing, from my language. That means that obviously I can only work with men, right? Women are not gonna be a- attracted to what I can do for them. But with that being said, you know, the man is a very big niche as well. So I'm a health coach who works with men in their 40s.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
28. CDChris Ducker
  Now we're niching down even further. I'm a health coach who works with men in their 40s who are recovering from surgery. Now we've got a niche.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
30. CDChris Ducker
  Now we can start creating content. Now we can s- you know, create an opt-in and put it on our website or our landing page and start building an email list. Now we can think about what types of courses or one-on-one consulting work we can do or-
43:12 – 50:02
Producing valuable online content and products
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. So I guess, I mean, so I'm, I'm very, very familiar with this sort of stuff on, on YouTube where... 'Cause, you know, through our course everyone's always like, "What's my niche?" Um, and usually I say that first start off just making videos about anything because you need to actually just make your first 10 or so videos.
2. CDChris Ducker
  Sure. Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  And then, and then worry about actually getting good at making videos still about anything, 'cause we need to train the chops of actually knowing how to make a video. And once you know how to make a video and it's actually not cringe and you don't look at it and feel embarrassed, at that point we can start thinking, "Right. Do I want to treat this like a hobby or a business?" If you're treating it like a hobby, great. Happy days.
4. CDChris Ducker
  Carry on doing your thing.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Carry on, do what you want.
6. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  But if you're gonna treat it like a business, now at that point let's think about the niche, let's think about the market, let's think about who could the competitor analysis, let's think about how you're gonna stand out in that particular niche. Um, but I think a lot of times people overthink the niche question when they haven't even got started. But I guess YouTube is a specific skill because there's a lot of, like, how to, how to make videos that goes into it. Do you think there's like a... What, what would be, like, the niche discovery process for, like, some of the people that you work with if they were like, "Right, Chris, I really want to build a personal brand so I can monetize it later. Uh, but, but I don't want to show my face on a YouTube video." What are some alternative routes to building that personal brand?
8. CDChris Ducker
  Well, I mean the podcast is always a great route. Um, I, I, you know, the funny thing about podcasting is I've, I've been podcasting since 2010.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. CDChris Ducker
  So what's that? 12 years now, 13 years all in. Um, and a lot of... H- honestly, podcasting is still in its infancy I think in terms of the, the, the general population, the way that we consume that particular type of content. Um, but I mean, like, podcasting is a great way. You never have to show your face. You don't have to worry about your makeup. Um, you know, Amy Porterfield, very good friend of mine, she, uh... I remember when she started her show and she said to me, um, "Oh, podcasts are so much easier than YouTube. I don't have to worry about my hair. Don't have to do my makeup. I can record it in my pajamas." You know, that sort of type of thing. So I think podcasting is a great way to do it. I don't think blogging is dead. I think blogging still has a really, really solid, uh, foundation for a lot of people in the building of their personal brand. Google is gonna love you because they've got all that written content to crawl. Um, and I think that, you know, a- anybody that's really serious about building a personal brand website specifically should definitely be creating written content as well. Um, but really, you know, I think the consistency is the big thing more than anything else. People generally give up too quickly, and you probably see this on YouTube as well with some of your students or the people that come into-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. CDChris Ducker
  ... your world. You know, they, they publish their first 10, 15, 20 videos. You know, their mum, their neighbor, and their dog subscribes, and they're kind of, "Oh, what's the point? No one's watching," kind of thing, and they give up.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
14. CDChris Ducker
  You know, Malcolm Gladwell, The Tipping Point job. You know, you're right there, man. Just keep going and it'll become so much easier. And I think a lot of people quit on building personal brands and building, uh, what could ultimately end up being a really profitable, impactful, you know, personal brand or expert-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
16. CDChris Ducker
  ... based business because they're not seeing the traction that they want straightaway. Um, and I feel like that's the big thing. Or the other thing is this. People pivot too quickly.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
18. CDChris Ducker
  So they, they, you know, they'll, they'll put out X amount of content over X amount of period of time. They don't see it working and so they say, "Well, I'm not really interested in productivity anymore. I'm gonna start doing videos on how to play the guitar." And all those other videos, all that other content is pretty useless at that point now.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
20. CDChris Ducker
  Uh, and so changing your mind, not being consistent-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
22. CDChris Ducker
  ... not being clear on who it is that you're helping or you want to, you know, entertain or whatever it is, all those things come into play.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  So on, on YouTube I say that if you make a video every week for two years, then I guarantee it'll change your life. I can't put in, put any numbers in it.
24. CDChris Ducker
  Right.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  I can't tell you how much more money you'll be making. 100% guarantee it will change your life at the very least in terms of the skills you learn, the confidence you gain, the person you become, the friends you make along the way. What would you say is an appropriate length of time to give the personal brand a shot before calling it quits?
26. CDChris Ducker
  Well, I mean, so we have a program called the Youpreneur Incubator, and within that program at the very core of it, we have what we call our six-figure roadmap, and it will basically take you from zero to six figures in an annual, you know, base- on an annual basis in terms of revenue. And I often say that, you know, ultimately I believe you can get there with inside of two years. I believe you can. But that's without changing your mind every five minutes.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
28. CDChris Ducker
  That's without trying to do all the things straightaway overnight. That's about getting the foundations in place. It's about knowing exactly who it is that you're working with, knowing exactly how you can help them, making sure that you're showing up consistently with what it is that you're doing and how you're doing it, and understanding that you can't put all your eggs in one basket in terms of monetization as well.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
30. CDChris Ducker
  So at first... We have four, we have a four-tier monetization kind of framework. The first one is based very much around time for money. So you give an hour of your time for X amount of money. That's what we call our, our, uh, our one-on-one power hour.
50:02 – 58:37
Can anyone build a profitable personal brand?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  anyone, anyone can build a six-figure personal brand-
2. CDChris Ducker
  I think any-
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... if they wanted to?
4. CDChris Ducker
  I think anybody who has the inclination to do it, A, and B, the ability to ultimately help people through what they know can absolutely do it. Yeah.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm. Yeah, I guess it's that second one that at least a lot of people I speak to view like... Like for example, if you asked- if you gave people the option, "Would you like to have a YouTube channel within two years that was making 100K?" Everyone would be like, "Yeah, yeah, I'd love that." "Would, would you like to have a personal brand business where within two years you could be m- making 100K?" "Hell yes." "How, how can you help people again?" "Uh, I dunno." [laughs] You know-
6. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah
7. AAAli Abdaal
  ... it's that how, how do I help people point. Like how do you, how do you begin to figure that out? Is that, how does, how do people develop that ability?
8. CDChris Ducker
  Well, I think, you know, going back to our, our example of kind of like the architect who's working 25 years, builds up a great-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
10. CDChris Ducker
  ... career and then decides to go the personal brand route, they've earned their stripes already. It's gonna be a lot easier for them to do it.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. CDChris Ducker
  A lot easier. But then the flip side of that coin is somebody like yourself who's kind of initially got known for doing something-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
14. CDChris Ducker
  ... who then started helping people to do something, and then that's kind of developed into a whole new thing. It's not by accident, it's by hard work. But clearly you can see that you can speed up the process. You don't need to do 25 years. I think what you do need to do though is be really clear on who it is you're helping-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
16. CDChris Ducker
  ... or who you're serving for sure, and how you can potentially show up for them.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
18. CDChris Ducker
  You know? For you it was about productivity and getting more done and-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
20. CDChris Ducker
  ... you know, that sort of type of thing. Um, you know, for, for somebody like Tim Ferriss, it was all about working less and making more.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
22. CDChris Ducker
  You know? And I think, you know, there's a lot of people online that, that have great personal brands who potent- potentially probably weren't that clear on what they were doing and how-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
24. CDChris Ducker
  ... they were doing it when they first got going. But over a period of time, certain things have happened, conversations have taken place, opportunities have reared their head, and therefore obviously they've been given those opportunities-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
26. CDChris Ducker
  ... and they can move forward with them.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. There's a question I like, uh, though, that we have as part of, um, our kind of finding your niche s- session for our YouTuber academy, which is if you had w- with zero preparation, if you were asked to do a 20-minute talk teaching someone something, who would that someone be and what would that something be? And generally people are like, "Oh, I would, I would help someone five years younger than me figure out what to do with their life, because all of my mates' younger siblings keep on asking me this and they think I have, have a, have a good answer." Or, "I dunno, I've been, I've been playing tennis my whole life and people just love my backhand, and so I c- I would teach a, a amateur tennis player how to improve their backhand slice." And it's things like that-
28. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah
29. AAAli Abdaal
  ... that then start to come out where you start thinking, "Okay, could I potentially make a viable YouTube channel out of this? And do I see enough, I guess, growth potential and monetization potential within that particular niche for it to be a path worth pursuing based on-"
30. CDChris Ducker
  Yep
58:37 – 1:08:10
Finding and serving a specific niche
1. AAAli Abdaal
  but yeah, I don't, I don't spend a lot of time actually watching YouTube videos other than... Oh, no, I do actually. I watch educational World of Warcraft videos 'cause I-
2. CDChris Ducker
  Okay
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... play World of Warcraft.
4. CDChris Ducker
  Okay.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  And I watch videos about like some guy with 2,000 subscribers who's like a, uh, preservation evoker healer [laughs] and teaching us how to do Mythic Plus dungeons. And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I love, I love the way he's done his rotation." And so I watch those while brushing my teeth in the toilet with my AirPods. [laughs]
6. CDChris Ducker
  Right. So okay. So let's-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
8. CDChris Ducker
  ... let's have some fun with that.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Sure.
10. CDChris Ducker
  So like your, everything you just said in the last 30 seconds went right over my head.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
12. CDChris Ducker
  I know of World of Warcraft obviously, but-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. CDChris Ducker
  ... I'm not interested at all in any of that.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
16. CDChris Ducker
  Um, but you are.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
18. CDChris Ducker
  And therefore you c- even though the guy's only got a couple of thousand subs-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
20. CDChris Ducker
  ... you're still consuming that content.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, I started following him when he had like 300 subs, and I was just like, "This guy's sick." [laughs]
22. CDChris Ducker
  Now, so do you see the power of niche with that?
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
24. CDChris Ducker
  The power of niche is very prominent right there.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. CDChris Ducker
  Whereas you don't watch a whole bunch of other stuff, but because you're very specifically involved in that type of-
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
28. CDChris Ducker
  ... content, you'll dive in. Whether, whether he has 2 million subs or 2,000 or even 200 subs-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
30. CDChris Ducker
  ... if there's something there that you don't know that he does-
1:08:10 – 1:11:13
Becoming a 'Youprenuer'
1. AAAli Abdaal
  So you've got this book, Rise of the Youpreneur.
2. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, The Definitive Guide to Becoming the Go-To Leader in Your Industry and Building a Future-Proof Business. What's the, what's the roadmap here? What, what, what are the kind of steps that someone needs to, needs to take?
4. CDChris Ducker
  I mean, we've gone through some of them. Um, the entire book is focused around what we call our three-step framework of build, market, and monetize. So you're building your roots, your marketing, what it is that you want to be known for-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
6. CDChris Ducker
  ... how you can help, and then you're monetizing that expertise as well. So I mean, at the very core, that framework is, is the book. It's part one, part two, part three. Um, but I mean, you know, a lot of what we've talked about here today has been quite foundational.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
8. CDChris Ducker
  Uh, the book certainly paints a very clear picture in terms of what you should be doing and when as well. There's certain things you shouldn't be doing too early on because you're just not ready for it. You know, you wouldn't install the plumbing and the electrics in the house if you didn't have the foundations and the walls put up.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. CDChris Ducker
  Right? And so, you know, I often say when you're looking at, you know, building a team, for example, you wouldn't hire a, a plumber to do your plastering. You wouldn't hire a roofing expert to do, you know, your electrics, for example. The chances are your house is gonna fall down, right? Same sort of type of thing when you're building that, that future-proof business of a business based around your expertise. And that is that, you know, bit by bit, brick by brick, you can build it up over a period of time where you are genuinely setting yourself up to become future-proof. Now, when I say future-proof, th- I want to just dive on that very quickly if I can. I'm a believer that when you build a business based around you and what it is that you believe in, that there are no real competitors out there. Sure, if I call myself a business coach, for example, there might be other business coaches out there that call themselves business coaches as well. But none of the other business coaches are gonna coach business owners the way I do.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. CDChris Ducker
  That makes me unique, right? So when you build the business of you, which we talk about in the book, there are no real competitors out there. It's a 100% original business. Likewise, because people fall in love with you-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
14. CDChris Ducker
  ... with your audience as an example, they love you and what you stand for and how you help them. If at some point in the future you want to pivot-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
16. CDChris Ducker
  ... a little bit and go in a slightly different direction, you will be future-proof because those hardcore subscribers and followers will go with you. They'll pivot with you.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
18. CDChris Ducker
  Because it's not so much about the content that Ali puts out, it's actually about Ali himself, and that's the definition of a personal brand business owner being future-proof.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Nice. Um, the reason I discovered your s- your work in the first place was your first book, Virtual Freedom.
20. CDChris Ducker
  Mm-hmm.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, and we were talking before recording that you did a talk, uh, 45 Ways to Use a Virtual Assistant in 45 Minutes.
22. CDChris Ducker
  Yep.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, most people listening to this-
24. CDChris Ducker
  And please don't ask me to do that again now
25. AAAli Abdaal
  ... I'm not gonna... Yeah. [laughs]
26. CDChris Ducker
  It was absolutely knackering.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
28. CDChris Ducker
  It really was. It's the worst speech idea ever-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
30. CDChris Ducker
  ... 'cause you've got 45 minutes on stage, you've got to do 45 things, literally didn't breathe, right?
1:11:13 – 1:17:11
Should you hire a virtual assistant?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  been thinking for a while that I want to make a course or a video or something called The Life-Changing Magic of a Part-Time Personal Assistant, um, which is basically the VA stuff. Uh, what... I, I imagine most people listening to this do not in fact have a personal assistant or a virtual assistant. Who should consider hiring a virtual assistant? And like I guess what is a virtual assistant? Who should considering hiring them? And I guess once we've done that, we'll, we'll talk about how to go about it.
2. CDChris Ducker
  I think VAs, virtual assistants in general, th- it's a general term nowadays, right? Um, when you think about outsourcing and you think about VAs in general, I think a lot of people just have this idea of just a, like a virtual, a remote version of a personal assistant. So it's somebody who does your calendar, maybe checks your email for you, books your hotels and your travel, maybe pay, pays your bills, that kind of stuff. And some VAs can do that for you. There's no doubt about it. But in the world of building a virtual team itself, you have a lot of different positions, a lot of different roles. I mean, you know, we were talking about how you've got all these different people working for you in different roles. The number one rule actually of hiring people virtually and hiring people period, whether they're on the other side of the world or sitting in the room next to you, is to hire for the role and not for the task. So the analogy of, you know, if I want to build a house, uh, I'm gonna get an architect on board first, then I'm gonna find my general contractor, then I'm gonna find my bricklaying guys, my plastering guys, my plumber, and my electrician, and all that-
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
4. CDChris Ducker
  ... sort of stuff, right? And then the house is built. Does it stop there? Does the, is the team done? No, I might need an interior designer, 'cause the sofa I'm gonna pick is horrible, right? So now I've got an interior designer on board as well, and so on, and so on, and so on. Hire for the role, not for the task when it comes to VAs. A general VA, which is a term I believe I coined m- many, many years ago, or a, a GVA, I talk about it in Virtual Freedom, um, is someone that is a general helper of online business owners. So it's people... It's somebody who can do things like upload your YouTube videos for them, not edit, but upload those YouTube videos. Uh, reply to comments, manage your social media, manage your email, you know, uh, sign up and set up, you know, the odd landing pages, that sort of type of stuff, right?
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. CDChris Ducker
  If you wanna build a website, you need to hire a web designer and a web developer, 'cause it's very, very rare to find a developer who can also design, and vice versa, right? If you want to create videos, you better have a video editor. Uh, and maybe it might be a video editor who can also do animation as well.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
8. CDChris Ducker
  Like, you know, there's all these different things come into play. Um, I often joke around a little bit and say, like, you know, "If you're not a graphic designer, you have no right being in Photoshop trying to design your company logo." Like, just hire someone to do that.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. CDChris Ducker
  So that's task-based outsourcing right there. I've got a logo that needs to be designed. I'm gonna go ahead and actually outsource that and get that logo designed. I pay them, I pay the designer to do the logo. They go ahead and give me my logo. Game over. Thank you for playing.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. CDChris Ducker
  Everybody's happy, right?
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
14. CDChris Ducker
  The project-based outsourcing is, you know, I need to redesign my website, so you're gonna need a graphic designer, you're gonna need a developer, you might need a copywriter as well. All these people come on board on a project basis. Once the website is live, you pay everybody for what they did. You get your website. Game over. Thank you for playing, right? But then you've got the role-based, and that's where the magic happens. That's where the trophies come into play. Because when you hire for the role, you're building a team. So what might start with a GVA will then become a GVA with a content writer.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. CDChris Ducker
  A GVA with a content writer and an SEO person. A GVA, content writer, SEO, graphic designer. Graphic designer, Facebook ad manager. Facebook ad manager, you know, uh, you know, funnel builder. You know, all these different roles come into play, and that's when I start getting exciting about stuff. Because what happens eventually, there's, there's a line that you've got to draw in the sand between building the team and then actually owning the business. Because what happens is, as and when you get all these different people in, unless you get somebody to manage all of those people, you go from being a business owner doing everything to hiring people to help you do all that stuff so you don't have to do it all, to then hiring more people to build a team, to then actually not being a business owner anymore. Now you're just a manager of people. And so generally, the route that you want to go is that one of those first two or three hires needs to become the person who then manages the entire team.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
18. CDChris Ducker
  And then you can go back to doing what you do, sitting in your zone, your zone of genius, et cetera, et cetera. Your business would not be able to do what it does if you were still ed- editing all your videos, if you were still updating all your social-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
20. CDChris Ducker
  ... if you were still writing all your emails. Couldn't do it.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
22. CDChris Ducker
  There's only one Ali. There's only so many-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
24. CDChris Ducker
  ... hours in the day.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, I think that that's, uh, kind of accidentally the exact format that we followed. Actually, it, it probably wasn't accidental. It's probably 'cause the stuff in your book-
26. CDChris Ducker
  I'd like to say that it was-
27. AAAli Abdaal
  ... kind of came into my-
28. CDChris Ducker
  ... because you read the book. [laughs]
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. [laughs] Just thinking of that.
30. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah.
1:17:11 – 1:26:33
Balancing health and relationships with work
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, one thing I often hear from entrepreneur-y type people, uh, is that they kind of regret not prioritizing health and relationships when they were younger.
2. CDChris Ducker
  Mm-hmm.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Is that true for you, or do you think you had a good balance between those, like, work, health, relationships, those three, I guess, pillars of a good life?
4. CDChris Ducker
  Think it's a little tough because I've always been a pretty healthy guy-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
6. CDChris Ducker
  ... for the most part. Um, I'm, I'm also quite outspoken where I, I say I don't really like exercise. Um, it's not because I'm lazy-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
8. CDChris Ducker
  ... 'cause I'm certainly not a lazy person. I just, it doesn't... Like, when I was playing ball-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
10. CDChris Ducker
  ... when I was, you know, a teenager into my early 20s, I played basketball three, four times a week. That's a workout, right? You don't play ball to get fit. You've got to be fit to play ball.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. CDChris Ducker
  Right? And so I used to be ridiculously fit, ridiculously strong. And as I've aged, [laughs] um, maybe that's not as good as I would want it to be. But also, I am, I think I'm probably more in tune with things like sleep-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
14. CDChris Ducker
  ... for example, for sure. I definitely prioritize that way more than I used to before. Um, I had back surgery many, many years ago. Uh, how many years ago now? 10 years. Had an L5, S1 fusion, which wasn't pretty. Um, and I never want to go through anything like that ever again. So I think as I've gotten older- I've definitely prioritized health a lot more. You don't eat as much junk. You maybe spend a little bit more time... I mean, certainly I spend more time reading and in solitude today than I have done ever before. Um, walking. I've he- fallen head over heels in love with nature and the outdoors. Didn't get that so much living over in the Philippines 'cause it's so hot over there that you can't walk for 15 minutes without sweating through your shirt, right?
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. CDChris Ducker
  But when I came back to England four and a half years or so ago, I realized, oh my God, I'm in the countryside here. Like, I can go walking and, like, see rabbits and stuff. Like, this is cool. You know what I mean? So definitely as I've got older, that's become more of a priority. In terms of relationships, it's a little hard to tell because I was married and divorced by my mid-20s, and I was still very much in a J-O-B scenario back then. We had kids very young, and therefore I had to work hard. You know, at one point I had three jobs.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
18. CDChris Ducker
  Right? For as long as I've been an entrepreneur, I've been with my wife, with my current wife, the love of my life.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
20. CDChris Ducker
  Right? And so w- and we g- we have grown all of our businesses, our group of businesses, we've grown them together from the ground up. We've never had any partners.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
22. CDChris Ducker
  We've never taken any loans. Every time we've expanded-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
24. CDChris Ducker
  ... we've done so from profits, et cetera, et cetera. So for me and my wife, Urs, the, the business and the relationship is kind of synonymous.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. CDChris Ducker
  It's one of one. Um, and she's pretty good at keeping me in check. [laughs] She's pretty good at keeping me in check. You know, when she sees me kind of maybe doing a, a, a few too many hours or... Which I'm getting better at nowadays, but certainly, you know, if, if, if I'm getting stressed out or, you know, I'm working too many hours or whatever the case, she'll call it.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
28. CDChris Ducker
  She'll call it.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
30. CDChris Ducker
  "Step away. Go take a walk. Go wire a tree or something." You know? [laughs] Bonsai has been a big thing for me, man.
1:26:33 – 1:31:42
Final recommendations and advice
1. AAAli Abdaal
  any... So for people who've, who've kind of listened to all of this so far, who vibe with your message, we'll put links to your books and the podcast and everything in the video description, in the show notes, depending on where people are seeing this. But any other books or resources that you would recommend for people if they're interested in this kind of Youprenuer thing or anything else that, maybe a guide to becoming a bonsai tree expert-
2. CDChris Ducker
  [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... or something like that. Just any kind of-
4. CDChris Ducker
  Um
5. AAAli Abdaal
  ... any kind of book recommendations. I'm always in the market for book recommendations.
6. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah. I, I got a couple. So Crush It! by Gary. I mean, that was probably the one book actually. I remember picking that up in maybe 2009-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
8. CDChris Ducker
  ... I think. Uh, and that book really got me thinking about putting myself out there more in regards to what it is that I... 'Cause we were already running our businesses at this point in the outsourcing game. Uh, and I was like, well, you know, if there are more people out there... And we were kind of ride, riding on Tim's coattails a little bit with the VA focus.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
10. CDChris Ducker
  If there are more people out there that want to know more about VAs and virtual assistants and building teams like that, then maybe I can help them. And that's when I started shooting YouTube videos on my balcony at 10:00 PM-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. CDChris Ducker
  ... and trying to get swiped by mosquitoes and all this other type of stuff. Um, Crush It! without a doubt. Has it dated? Yes, unfortunately it has. But it's the kind of book, I remember reading it in one sitting.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
14. CDChris Ducker
  It's that kind of book you can just blow through on a quick flight or something. So that's an absolute must-have. Um, I also love, uh, going back to Zig Ziglar, See You At The Top.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
16. CDChris Ducker
  Uh, it's one of those books. Has it aged a little? Yeah, it has. [laughs] But I would suggest don't read it, listen to it. Get the audiobook, because there's something about Zig's tones that you just Fall In Love with. He's great. Um, so I would say See You At The Top, for sure. And, uh, yeah, I mean, there's a whole bunch of books, man, but those two I think very specifically in regards to like personal branding and putting yourself out there.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Nice.
18. CDChris Ducker
  Yeah.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  And final question. Any, um, any parting advice for me? You know, I'm 28 years old doing this personal brand thing.
20. CDChris Ducker
  Dude, you're doing just fine. [laughs]
21. AAAli Abdaal
  What, what, what should I keep in mind as I kind of continue with this sort of stuff?
22. CDChris Ducker
  I would say maybe not so much a strategy or, or, or a tip or s- maybe a warning-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
24. CDChris Ducker
  ... if more than anything else, right? And I talk about it in, in Rise of the Youpreneur. I talk about relationships very specifically and how you can, you know, you can build different types of relation- or you will build different types of relationships throughout the course of your business growing, your career growing, et cetera, et cetera. But understand and really respect the fact that relationships should be treasured, not used. Because particularly in the online business world, um, there is a lot of the using going on. I'm gonna get close to this person because I wanna be on their podcast, or I wanna get close to this person because I want them to promote my book or my course to their-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
26. CDChris Ducker
  ... 100,000 email list or whatever, right? I call a massive amount of BS on those types of individuals. Like I, I am friends with some of the most influential names in the online business space. I have never, ever asked them to do anything for me.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
28. CDChris Ducker
  And that is still the reason why when I'm in town, I get invites to go and sleep in their house or in their apartments, uh, or the reason why they pick me up from the airport when I land. Like these are the kind of relationships that I truly treasure. Every January, I sit and write a whole bunch of cards, and I send them to people from all around the world, and this year I think I sent about 30 or so out. And these are people that maybe I've not seen them for a while, or maybe they've had a, a, their first baby, or they've, they've unfortunately lost somebody close to them.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
30. CDChris Ducker
  Whatever it is. Maybe it was something I saw them do that really resonated with me, and I didn't bring it up to them because I was just, it was, it was an Instagram story or whatever, but I wanted them to know that it mattered to me. That sort of stuff is, that's a non-negotiable in January. I send those cards out, and I write them with a fountain pen. It's just like, it's a whole thing for me. So I just genuinely look at the relationships that come your way. Be wary of people wanting to become buddies with you because of who you are and the platform that you've built, and understand that, you know, true friends, real r- re- real relationships are very, very tough to build. But if you put it, if you, if you put it at the very center of everything that you do, then you will build the right kind of relationships, and those kind of relationships can be treasured for sure.