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Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalConfronting my Productivity Guru - Tiago Forte
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Fatherhood as a Forcing Function for Productivity
Ali opens by asking how becoming a dad has stress-tested Tiago's productivity. Tiago says it radically constrains his time, which has forced him to focus on the one most valuable thing each day. Ali relates this to Parkinson's law.
- •Tiago became a dad about 18 months ago and finds time away from his child painful
- •Having less time coincided with hiring a team and finally delegating
- •With only 90 minutes in a workday, he must ask what actually moves the needle
- •Each morning he picks the single most important thing and focuses on it
- •Ali notes that tight calendars make work get done faster, as in Parkinson's law
From the Peace Corps in Ukraine to Silicon Valley
Tiago explains how he got to where he is, starting with graduating into the financial meltdown and joining the Peace Corps in Ukraine. There he taught English and discovered study skills and productivity. Returning to San Francisco exposed him to information overload and digital note-taking tools.
- •Tiago wrote the "foremost expert" description of himself aspirationally, and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy
- •He graduated in 2009 with no particular skill and joined the Peace Corps
- •He taught students in Ukraine note-taking, goal setting and scheduling
- •He moved from rural Ukraine to San Francisco's startup scene and met Evernote and social media there
Knowledge Work as Inputs and Outputs
Ali and Tiago discuss how most jobs now involve managing information flows, including Ali's experience in medicine. Tiago says every job reduces to inputs, processing and outputs, so people can learn from anyone. Ali brings up Bertrand Russell's and Paul Millerd's definitions of a job.
- •Ali used productivity principles like waiting-for lists as a doctor
- •Tiago says every job turns inputs into outputs, so people can learn from chefs, contractors or musicians
- •Ali cites Russell's and Millerd's definitions of a job as moving matter or pixels
- •Tiago says people vary by orders of magnitude in how well they do this
Defending Productivity as a Word
Ali asks why the world seems to be moving away from productivity. Tiago defends the term, saying he likes industrial-age metaphors, sees productivity as a phase alternating with creativity, and defines it as minimizing waste. He says he likes the word because it confronts people.
- •Tiago draws inspiration from modern manufacturing and the theory of constraints
- •He sees productivity and creativity as a pendulum, using his painter father as an example
- •Ali defines productivity as using time intentionally
- •Tiago equates productivity with minimizing waste of time, attention, ideas and potential
- •The trigger people feel about the word points to a limiting belief
Why Income Matters: Leaving the Humanitarian Path
Asked whether productivity is just about work, Tiago explains his shift from a decade of nonprofit work to business. He concluded from microfinance work that raising income is the lever that improves other life outcomes. Ali shares his own channel's shift toward business and money.
- •Tiago spent his 20s in nonprofits, including microfinance in Colombia
- •He concluded that raising income improves health, education and more
- •Ali says his channel shifted toward business and making money, and that earning money buys the freedom to do work you care about
- •Tiago calls money the most fungible resource, even more than time
- •Ali and Tiago discuss how health and money interact, and the law of equal and opposite advice
Productivity as a Tool, Not an End
Tiago describes thinking in seasons, picking a skill, immersing intensively, then using it elsewhere. Ali adds that productivity and creativity are means, and warns against being a hammer enthusiast instead of a carpenter, as when he collects note-taking apps.
- •Tiago suggests picking a skill, concentrating on it for a short time, then moving on
- •Productivity and creativity are tools for the life you want
- •Ali warns against worshipping the tool over what it lets you do
- •Ali admits to collecting note-taking apps instead of writing
Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Overcoming Money Beliefs
Tiago recounts how Rich Dad, Poor Dad, given to him by his mom, flipped his view of business from enemy to vehicle for impact. He and Ali discuss why people hold limiting beliefs about money. Ali recalls how Tiago and David challenged his reluctance to sell his own course.
- •Tiago read Rich Dad, Poor Dad in one night and switched from studying development to international business
- •He says our conditioning gives us beliefs that making money compromises integrity
- •Ali recalls Tiago and David challenging his idea that selling is evil
- •Creators accept sponsorships but balk at selling their own products
- •Tiago says teaching and coaching works because people need to be looked in the eye and told what to do
Quitting Consulting and Launching a Skillshare Course
Tiago explains how a performance review mapping out his consulting career made him rage quit. With about six weeks of savings, he built a Getting Things Done-based course on Skillshare in 2013, which paid his bills for a year or more. He credits luck as well as earlier attempts.
- •A consulting career path made Tiago decide to invest in his own work instead
- •Living abroad taught him how little he needed to get by
- •He had about six weeks of savings and applied to retail jobs as a backup
- •He created a GTD-based Skillshare course in a few weeks that paid the bills for a year or more
- •He credits luck, timing and earlier failed attempts
Constraints, Limiting Beliefs and Staying Scrappy
Ali and Tiago discuss how safety nets and invisible fears hold people back, with Ali using the baby elephant and chain parable. Tiago argues that too much money, time and freedom destroys motivation. Ali adds that startups lose urgency once they scale, and that a little hardship helps.
- •Ali asks his friend what she is actually afraid of when she won't leave a six-figure job
- •The elephant and string parable illustrates limiting beliefs
- •Tiago says a low salary left him nothing to lose, and constraints create momentum
- •Ali compares this to startups losing urgency once the money machine works
- •He cites hormesis to argue that some stress is beneficial
Finding the Niche: Cohort-Based Courses and Pricing
Tiago describes trying consulting, corporate training and self-paced courses before landing on live cohort-based courses. He explains how Building a Second Brain grew over 14 cohorts, starting with friends at $500, framed as a consultant's price, and rising to $1,500. They also discuss how corporate spending and tax deductibility change attitudes to money.
- •Consulting, corporate training and self-paced courses each taught Tiago something but weren't the fit
- •Cohort-based courses combined those skills through live Zoom coaching
- •The first cohort was in early 2017, and the course has run 14 cohorts
- •Early customers were friends, and the first price was $500, framed as personal consulting
- •Tiago stopped raising the price at $1,500 to keep it accessible
- •Tax deductibility changes how business owners think about spending
Just-in-Time Productivity and Low Work in Process
Ali asks Tiago to explain just-in-time. He describes Toyota's manufacturing approach and how low inventory improves quality, then applies it to knowledge work by keeping work in process low and learning just in time rather than just in case.
- •Toyota pulled parts in just before building each car
- •Low inventory improves quality because defects are caught early
- •Too many simultaneous projects hurts quality and efficiency
- •Ali finds strictly one-at-a-time is not his sweet spot either
- •Just-in-case learning suits school but not the uncertainty after it, where Tiago favors learning when needed
What Is a Second Brain and Why It Matters
Tiago defines a second brain as a central, searchable place for journals, notes, lists, bookmarks and documents. Ali presses on why this matters, and Tiago explains that creators and decision makers need raw material. They illustrate it with the hardware store list, Ali's people notes and Tiago's Christmas gift notebook.
- •A second brain collects what we already save in one searchable, linkable place
- •It gives creators raw material so they don't face a blank page
- •Ali compares it to a commonplace book and to class notes
- •Tiago uses it to pick up hardware store items on a spontaneous errand
- •Offloading routine memory frees attention for higher-level thinking
- •Ali keeps notes on conversations with people, and Tiago has a Christmas gift notebook
The CODE Framework: Capture, Organize, Distill, Express
Tiago outlines the four stages of the creative process in his book: capture, organize, distill and express. Ali restates them and they discuss use cases such as musicians' hookbooks. Tiago says everything has a hook, and he and Ali talk about constraints that separate the stages, making use of small blocks of time, and the second brain as a digital pocket notebook.
- •CODE stands for capture, organize, distill and express
- •Hookbooks let musicians collect lyric snippets to build songs from
- •Tiago says everything has a hook, such as a ballroom dancer's hand flourish
- •Separating stages creates constraints that tame overwhelming optionality
- •Small blocks of time can go toward capturing a single note instead of scrolling
- •The second brain is described as a pocket notebook on steroids
Publisher timestamps
- 0:00Intro
- 1:44How has having a child has impacted your productivity?
- 6:01How did you become one of the world's foremost experts on productivity?
- 12:05How to keep up with managing information flows
- 17:20Is the world moving away from productivity?
- 23:24What's the meaning of productivity for you?
- 34:11Getting interested in business and making money
- 58:31Your new book
- 1:03:14What is a second brain and why does it help you organise your life?
- 1:14:31The principles of building a second brain
